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Transcript15 lines
- [00:00]
A
Ben. I'm Ben Max from Gotham Gazette.
- [00:04]
B
And I'm Jarrett Murphy from City Limits. Today we're talking about policing and criminal justice likely to be among the top issues in the 2021 election discussion. And candidates will be expected to make their views and reform plans clear over the next few months.
- [00:19]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, possibly the top issue for many voters is what are candidates going to do about police reform? And for many voters who think about a different direction, what are candidates going to do to bring crime, especially after we've seen significant rise in shootings and murders in 2020. And then there's many voters, I think, that want to know both. What are you going to do to make policing fair, more racially? Just increase police discipline and accountability while also making the city safer. And that's where questions around the role of the NYPD and of policing comes into question. And we're seeing that discussion in the mayoral race and other races already as to what powers should police officers have and what responsibilities should they have? What should the size of the police force be? And many other questions.
- [01:11]
B
And, you know, let's be honest, this is not the first time candidates running for mayor or city council or any of the other offices we're talking about have discussed policing. It's a major function of municipal government. It was a big part of the Ed Koch campaign in 77, Giuliani and Dinkins talking in 89 and 93. And of course, in 2013, Bill de Blasio in that campaign. It was really about reforming the police department, changing stop and frisk. The mayor promised that he achieved that to some degree. He disappointed a lot of people with the timidity of some of his reforms from the outset, with Bill Bratton as his commissioner, embracing broken windows before moving away from it. And obviously over the past year, you've had this fascinating and in some ways tragic dimension of the topic that the killings of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, continued questions about policing here in the city, touching off major protests, how those protests themselves were policed, the movement to defund the police here with some limited success in the most recent city budget. All of that playing out against rising crime means that this year you have something interesting. A campaign where candidates should be talking about both how to reform policing and. And how to address crime. Usually we've had one element of the conversation this year we'll have to have both.
- [02:30]
A
Right? And let's certainly be clear that one of the reasons that the Black Lives Matter protests that we saw in the spring and summer of 2020 were so intense in New York City was because the killing of George Floyd reminded people so much of the killing of Eric Garner in 2014 and really raised questions about other killings of individuals, very often people of color, very often black men, around discipline for the officers involved, and around questions of how Bill de Blasio, who was elected as a police reformer, has or hasn't lived up to those promises. And one of the most important things, I think, for mayoral candidates in 2021, especially on the Democratic side, is looking at Bill de Blasio's morality and saying, hold on. Everybody from sort of far to his left or just a little bit to his left are disappointed that he hasn't been more of a reformer. And so many people to his right, moderates, conservatives, feel like he's been totally anti police and trying to learn some lessons from this mayoralty around how do you lead the police department? How do you bring about significant reform, and how do you make the city feel like you're on top of issues related to crime and public safety? And Bill de Blasio has really struggled on all of the above. And this is important for mayoral candidates and candidates for other offices, too, to really be thinking about and explaining to voters what their vision is for a fair policing of the city and also to keep the city safe. And as I said earlier, that's where some of that conversation can extend beyond the police department around the discussion of public safety. And that's where we saw in 2020, this conversation of what should the police department budget be? Should there be a defunding of the police? If so, to what degree? What should the headcount of the NYPD be? And so many of those other discussions that candidates for office in 2021 really need to have thought about and be telling voters where they stand.
- [04:35]
B
And I think one of the complications, and this is moving from sort of why the issue is important this year to how it should actually be discussed, how it will be governed in 2022 and beyond. It's really more than the police department. It's really more than how you react to crime. All those are immensely complex issues. As you mentioned, police accountability, the number of cops we have, what their role is. But also this ties very intricately with the court system, bail laws, discovery rules, sentencing procedures, and also with the correction system. And that's been a refrain in recent years all around the country, but especially in New York, and the kind of cruelty of incarceration, especially the problems in Rikers Island. The mayor embracing the closure of Rikers the opening of borough jails, still a controversial idea, an idea that's been set back in terms of the actual construction because of the COVID 19 crisis. Something the next mayor will have to deal with is making decisions around building those structures and actually moving people to them, shutting down Rikers and how to deal with the continuing problem of violence in the jails. And I think one thing that goes to Ben is that we tend to focus for good reason on the mayoral candidates when we're talking about policing and crime and criminal justice. But there are a lot of other players at the table, some of whom will also be on the ballot come June and November.
- [05:59]
A
Right? I mean, the city comptroller has oversight of the budget, also has a hand in, you know, police involve settlements and other city settlements that often occur and can sometimes go around the mayoral administration on that. There's obviously the role of the City Council in determining the city's budget. And this is one of the most important things we saw in 2020 around that defunding the NYPD conversation and city budget conversation, which turned out to be even more complex than a lot of people thought going in, because you wound up having legislators of color who did not buy into the significant defunding of the NYPD that some activists, including many activists of color were. And some of those very activists of color who were in the defund the NYPD movement in 2020 are running for office for City Council offices here in 2021. And they're also trying to influence, of course, the citywide races. So a lot of confluence there. The City Council's role also in oversight and in legislating deeply important in terms of how policing is done. The mayor will always have a lot of control over the police department and what policing looks like in the city. But the City Council's role shouldn't be overlooked. As well as the state legislature, which can, of course, set statewide law that the city then has to abide by. And then there's other entities as well, right?
- [07:22]
B
I mean, obviously the district attorneys and two of them are up for election this year. They play a huge role in how prosecution goes forward. And obviously that affects policing. You've got the court system, you've got the unions, editorial boards, obviously a lot of players at the table. And what it indicates is the mayor has tremendous power, but has to figure out how to work that with the others who are also on the board,
- [07:45]
A
the Civilian Complaint Review Board, you know, we should mention, which is not elected, although some people want it to be, which is this, you know, Quasi independent mayoral appointed entity for the most part. And there are questions in this election cycle about what the powers of the Civilian Complaint Review Board should be and how much a police commissioner should have to listen to the recommendations for officer discipline from the Civilian Complaint Review Board. Among the many questions that we need to hear mayoral and other candidates answer is, you know, what do you think the role of the CCRB should be? And how much should the police commissioner have to listen to those recommendations?
- [08:23]
B
And is the nypd, you know, actually controlled by the commissioner? Is a more deep and frightening question that some have raised during the de Blasio years. But we now have this huge field running to replace Mayor de Blasio and therefore have at least tacit control over the police department. Obviously more candidates that we can talk about during the time we have here, and each of them has a slightly different slice of the apple. But as the field has coalesced so far, it does seem possible to kind of divide people up into like, say, three different lanes in terms of their approach to policing.
- [08:58]
A
I think so. And I think, you know, that gets at one thing that we've talked about and I've been thinking about, which is that, you know, very often the discussions around Democratic candidates for any office are boiling down to this sort of progressive versus moderate discussion. And that's it's not always that clean cut. And as you just got it, I think there's more like three lanes emerging, at least on policing. And I think on other issues as well, I think in the furthest left lane, you have candidates like Carlos Menchaca, Diane Morales really trying to put forward much more of a real re envisioning of policing and how public safety is done. You know, Maya Wiley might be sort of close to that lane, but maybe in the one that's a little bit more moderate and, you know, thinking a lot about reform, but also, you know, not necessarily sort of wholesale or as much defunding of the NYPD as some others might be. I would also say Scott Stringer, Shaun Donovan are probably in that sort of middle lane that's pretty progressive, but not quite as further left. And then you have this sort of progressive to moderate lane where you have candidates like Katherine Garcia, you have Zach Iscoll, you have Laurie Sutton, and you certainly have, I think, Ray Maguire and Eric Adams, both talking about their personal experiences as black men. But also Eric Adams has personal experience in the NYPD for decades, and he is really trying to put forward this combined platform of police reform and fighting crime in a fairly moderate way. But if you listen to him talk. He thinks that a lot of change is needed at the nypd. So it's very complicated. There's a lot of candidates. I didn't even get to them all. And there's also, of course, questions around whether people actually have the understanding of how the police department works and the management skills to put their visions into effect.
- [10:58]
B
So a lot of candidates, a very complex issue. Let's boil it down to the most important questions that we feel candidates should have to answer before primary day, before election day in November. One of the top ones, obviously is who or what type of person or what kind of philosophy do you want to have as your police commissioner? Because that person is going to have tremendous power in shaping policing and law and order in the city. That's certainly one. What are some others?
- [11:26]
A
Well, I also think about, you know, we have seen a significant increase in gun violence in 2020. The numbers are still, you know, relatively what they were maybe a decade ago. So, you know, things haven't plunged back into some of the scary, bad old days that some people say. But I think the question around what's your sort of big vision for reducing gun violence and reducing crime in the city and how you execute it in a fair way is another big one,
- [11:54]
B
obviously another one whether the new commissioner will be able to overrule the Civilian Complaint Review Board. When it comes to officer discipline. Commissioners traditionally have much to the ire of advocates in the CCRB itself. That's a big policy question for mayoral tenants to answer. And of course, getting back to the city's jails, smaller population, rising violence, you know, what will the city do to correct that? I think that's something candidates need to be pressed on as well. Obviously a lot to discuss between now and the election, but it's important for people to be prepared to participate in that. So if you are listening, if you are watching, make sure you check your voter registration or register to vote@vote nyc.
- [12:38]
A
And be sure to read@gothamgazette.com and citylimits.org as we cover the mayoral race and many other races here in 2021.