← Max Politics
Max Politics
Jumaane Williams on the 2026 New York Primary Results & What Comes Next
01:02:58
New York City Public Advocate Jumaane Williams jo…
Loading summary
Transcript71 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:08]
B
Hello and welcome to Max Politics. This is Ben Max coming to you from New York Law School and its center for New York City and State Law. Thanks for tuning in speaking here on the day after primary day. It's Wednesday, June 24, 2026. It was a very big night for the left in New York, especially New New York City Mayor Zoram Mamdani and the Democratic Socialists of America that he comes out of and remains largely al aligned with. Mamdani and the DSA continue to flex and grow their power and did so through a series of Democratic primary wins for Mamdani backed candidates and the broader slate of DSA backed candidates for Congress and the state Legislature, almost all of whom won their primaries. In much watched congressional primaries. We saw Brad Lander defeat Congressman Dan Goldman. We saw Darielisa Villa Chevalier defeat Congressman Adriano Espaillat. We saw Claire Valdez win the open race over Antonio Antonio Reynoso and others to succeed Congresswoman Nydia Velasquez. And we saw Micah Lasher win the open race over Alex Boris and others to succeed Congressman Jerry Nadler. Tom Dinapoli won the only statewide primary on the ballot to again become the Democratic nominee for state comptroller and the state legislative primaries for many Senate and Assembly seats. Several incumbents have been defeated by left wing challengers, including a number of successful DSA candidates who will all but certainly grow the DSA ranks in the state legislature come January and give Mayor Mandani more allies in the state Senate assembly to help enact his agenda, which relies heavily on the state. Of course, coming up this fall, general elections, including a race for governor where Governor Kathy Hochul is trying to fend off Republican challenger Bruce Blakeman, other statewide races and general elections for all, all of the state legislature and all 26 House seats in New York. Joining me today on the show to discuss the primary election results, what they mean for Democrats in New York and beyond, and what comes next is New York City Public Advocate Jumani Williams. He'll be with me momentarily. Very briefly, two quick notes if you missed it. I had a very interesting conversation leading into primary day with the co chairs of New York City DSA Grace Mauser and Gustavo Gordillo. It is still quite relevant now given that we've seen these election results in such a strong showing from Mayor Mandani and the DSA slate. It's still very much worth a listen if you haven't listened to yet or even to review what they said because there's a lot in there. And coming up here on MAX Politics. I'm scheduled beyond this Jumani Williams interview to also speak very soon with the chair of the New York State Democratic Party, Jacobs. And I'm also lining up some other great post primary episodes to talk about what just happened and what comes next as attention moves toward the general election as well as what's next on the governing front and much more to come here. All right. I'm pleased to welcome back to MAX Politics Jumani Williams, the New York City Public Advocate, a Democrat and a leader among progressives in New York. Thanks for joining me again. How are you?
- [03:18]
A
I'm individually well and increasingly crazy world. And I don't care if it's a week away, a week since I still say hello by saying Nixon 5.
- [03:28]
B
So, Nixon 5, you're still riding high on that, I'm sure. All right, let me get your quick take on this then. Was the mayor over the top in his city hall speech? Did he hit it out of the park? What was your view of that?
- [03:45]
A
I thought that was a very, very good speech. I think it was on point and hit what was supposed to hit. I'm glad I was able to speak and bring some high octane Knicks fan energy. Yeah. My little flub aside, I think I was just excited to be there.
- [04:02]
B
And what'd you think of Jim Dolan coming up and being cranky?
- [04:07]
A
I'm still not a Jim Dolan fan and I'm not a fan after that. Unfortunately, he had to be there and be Jim Dolan.
- [04:16]
B
It's really too bad he couldn't sort of embrace the positive energy a little bit more, even if he did think the mayor went on a little bit too much. All right. Anyway, enough about the Knicks before we get too, too derailed with the NBA draft. They can't have the NBA draft on primary night. I'm sorry. That was not.
- [04:34]
A
They should not.
- [04:35]
B
That was not.
- [04:36]
A
But you can never have enough about the Knicks. But that's I understand we may have to move on, but I just want to rephrase it a little bit. All right.
- [04:43]
B
So not your takeaways for last night's NBA draft, your takeaways for last night's New York primary elections. We'll get into some of the specifics. But big picture, what's your view of what we just saw in these state and federal primaries in New York?
- [05:00]
A
My big picture is what, you know, many of us have been sounding for a long time and being ignored by the Democratic leadership of the party. I belong to not just the city and state, across the country And I have said this before, every decision that leadership has made has brought us Donald Trump twice and has brought us to this point. And I really wish they would take a moment to reflect and see that, you know, what they've been doing hasn't been working. The focus on incumbency protection and power retention for its own sake just hasn't worked. And it's not what people have wanted. And many of us have been saying that for a long time. And I hope they take a moment to reset because you just selling this notion that even though I brought you to Donald Trump, I'm the one that can take you out out of it is not working. And they hopefully folks are just more clear now than ever, or they should be. Who.
- [06:00]
B
Who is that group? I mean, who's. Who's party leadership? When you say Democratic leadership, who are you talking about?
- [06:06]
A
I mean, I still try to make sure I retain the ability to work with all my colleagues. So I'm gonna try to do that here. But I think it's evidence the people who make the decisions in the party, people who have the ability to move this party in one way or the other. And what I've said in 2008, I've said this before, there are people who probably wouldn't buy a black toothbrush, but they voted for Barack Obama, and then they voted for the complete opposite of hope and change for a person who is the personification of the bad things that are in all of us and who wants to bring the bad things that are all of us out again, saying they want a different messenger and they want different message. And our Democratic leadership repeatedly tried to send the same message and same messenger. At minimum, if they thought the messenger wasn't right, they should have adopted the messages of affordability, the message of public safety, and tried to translate it in a way they thought folks can hear it. But not only did they ignore it, they tried to swat away anybody that spoke about the populist message that I think was the best response to Donald Trump. And that is not only irritating, it's painful to watch as I'm trying to raise my children in a country that is very scary to be in right now.
- [07:26]
B
What is that populist message? We're talking about reining in corporate power, more progressive tax structure and more social services. I mean, what, what's sort of top of the list in terms of what that.
- [07:39]
A
Absolutely all of it. The, the decisions that are made are too often made by corporate money, who are focused on making money, not focused on helping people. And People are feeling that right now, and they have said, please stop responding simply to corporate money. We had the biggest transfer of wealth that we've ever seen. People get concerned when they hear words like transfer of wealth. But the Republicans took money from working class folks and gave it to wealthy people. And we're in that situation because Democratic leadership have unfortunately had similar mindset to Republican leaders about incumbency protection, about power retention, about taking money from corporations and wealthy people and then doing their bidding, even if it harms the folks who need the help the most. And so whether it's actual progressive taxation, which makes sense, whether it's about how we keep folks safe and talk around public safety, whether it's talking about what's happening in Palestine and Gaza and Israel, they have really not read the room in how people are not just feeling, but what they're going through. And now people are paying for that.
- [08:55]
B
One of the things we saw in these primaries is a whole bunch of pretty progressive, either current elected officials or candidates losing to others who are more progressive, more leftist, Democratic socialists. Is that actually sort of the some of the symptom of what you're talking about here? I mean, you did have people losing some of these races who are pretty aligned with what you were just talking about. They're just getting defeated or taken out of power by people even further to the left and even further, you know, talking about economic populism to the degree of, you know, Democratic socialism. Were there, were there people who lost their seats last night that you think was sort of an overcorrection by the left movement or by voters who voted them out? You know, were there anybody you were you're sort of sorry to see lose their primaries last night?
- [09:52]
A
I mean, what you said, I would say the brightest spot for me was Jennifer Rajkamar, who no longer be an elected official. And to your point, who challenged you
- [10:05]
B
in the public advocate race and.
- [10:07]
A
Oh yeah, she definitely challenged me, but I will say no. You know, I'm. I'm one. You know, Ben, you've known me for, I guess 16, 17 years, long time. I have been through a lot of races, so I usually don't respond like this, but this was a particularly nasty one and I still don't understand why it was the way it does. And I discovered that Jennifer represents some of the worst in politics. She becomes whoever she thinks she needs to be at any moment in time, whether it's asking for my endorsement or standing behind Eric Adams. And I think that's just a dangerous thing in where we are so I'm glad that she will no longer represent that part of Queens. And we have somebody who is the opposite of that someone. I'm sorry, C. Gold. And there's a few folks, but, you know, Antonio Reynoso, I think maybe the type of overcorrection that you're speaking about Claire. I supported Claire when she ran for the Assembly. So we did have two folks to your point that were really closely aligned. I think it's impossible to talk about this without talking about the changes that have happened in neighborhoods for the past few decades. And when I see in the past 20 years, 200,000 black New Yorkers had to leave because they couldn't afford it, that's something to talk about, whether it's black or brown folks who have made these communities desirable. But what is ironic is the same elected officials from the same type of thought. Some people thought, I think just getting the diversity was the answer, and it wasn't. It was changing the system. And I don't think people really, really took that to heart. And so you have folks who literally would lambast folks like me who were saying, don't make these land use deals. Don't make these land use decisions. They are bad. But they made them for some of the same reason we're speaking about, because corporate interests really took root, in this case, real estate. And they made these land use decisions decade after decade and brought new folks in because 80, 20 was never going to work. But people were told that we don't know how to do this, this and that. We're just against development. And so you brought new populations in, and now you're feeling a repercussions of all of that. But it's really a symptom of the same thing. We needed to always just change the structure and a system that is harmful. Diversifying it is part of it, and always. I'll always lean to that, but that's not the end of it. And so whether it was land use deals that brought folks in, or whether it is using the gentrifying neighbors as an excuse not to do policies that would actually help black and brown folks, the result is what the result is. Now,
- [13:00]
B
there's a lot to unpack there. I mean, it's. It's interesting. There's. There's been, I feel like, a more dominant attitude among people like Antonio Reynoso, that it's actually been a lack of sufficient development in a lot of neighborhoods that have led to a lot of the displacement that we've seen in some of these neighborhoods where we've seen a lot of demographic change that if you had more development in, I don't know, Park Slope and Cobble Hill, you might not have seen so many people getting priced out of those areas and then moving into Crown Heights and Bed Stuy, you know, and sort of those ramifications of the affordability challenges and the lack of housing leading more to the sort of displacement and gentrification that you were just talking about.
- [13:47]
A
Well, you know, I, I always think in a lot of cases it's both. And, but I would say there were land use decisions on both ends. So you had land decisions of rezonings with numbers that never worked. Right? So you have 80 twenties, so you have, quote, unquote, 20% affordable. Those weren't even affordable. And 80% market rate, that math never was going to work. And that built up supply, but not in the spaces that we needed. So I've always agreed that we need supply. Then you have areas like the places you mentioned that do the nimby. That is a problem. And what I've seen now often when people sometimes try to mimic what they see. So there were areas, there were places in the communities that we're speaking about that were gentrified, that either did these eight thousand twenties that didn't work, but also tried to mimic, you know, Parksville, Cobble Hill, and didn't do. And also sometimes did nimby. And that was costly because it didn't develop what they needed to develop in this in those areas or the strain of what those houses now were worth made people sell and leave and go someplace else. And so I think it's all connected and not separated. I just think it's the decisions that were made as folks diversified power really mimicked what they saw there. Instead of changing the landscape and why we're making decisions we're making and that folks are now suffering because of that.
- [15:17]
B
I want to come back to the New York 7 race in a minute because you're obviously backing and supportive of your longtime ally, Antonio Reynoso. But before we get to that, just again, big picture here. This was such a big primary night for Mayor Mamdani and for the dsa. What's your takeaway in terms of sort of the strength of different political forces in the city right now? It seems like Mamdani and the DSA are kind of in their own category right now in terms of the ability to get out the vote, run a field operation, you know, do the things that are necessary, especially in a low turnout election like we just have yet again, what's your view in terms of the ups and downs of political power in the city right now?
- [16:04]
A
I mean, it is clear that Mia Mamdani is actually more of who Eric Adams thought he was or would be. That is 100% clear. It's also clear that Democratic leadership, who have been literally just trying to think, oh, these are just some annoyances, some annoyance folks, and then we can ignore them, were just completely and utterly wrong. And many of us knew that, and they just refused to accept that. Now, I don't think anyone would have thought that it was the complete route that happened was just astonishing to watch. Like, that is amazing. But I think most of us thought it wasn't gonna go the Democratic establishment way. And whether it was wins or tight races, it was gonna be clear. And now it's more clear than ever the direction that folks want people to go in. And I will say this to your low turnout point. I believe even some of the folks that may have voted a different way simply didn't even come out. I don't.
- [17:13]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [17:14]
A
Yeah. So, like, similar to, like this notion, at least I'm not Trump. Vote for me is not working. And so you see that intra party, like, you need to give people in 2026 something to vote for and stop trying to give them something to vote against. And I don't know how many times we're gonna have to learn that lesson. And it's getting, you know, particularly with Trump, more and more costly each time.
- [17:44]
B
But, you know, who are these Democratic leaders, even locally, that are asleep at the switch? I mean, you're talking about Hakeem Jeffries, Adriana, Adriano Espayat.
- [17:56]
A
Again, I try my best to maintain my ability, operate, folks, but it is clear who the leadership of this party is. What is interesting is that many in the leadership of the party themselves came as outsiders, themselves ran against incumbents, themselves ran against incumbents people thought were progressives at that moment in time. And it's always astonishing to me that everybody thinks somehow this time is different than when they or I did it, and it's not. And what I'm hoping is that folks will reset, take a moment, say, hey, what is working here? Because, I mean, I will admit that even, you know, DSA is powerful. There's no way around it. But there is some criticism about the makeup and who's making decisions and displacement there that have happened. But some of the leaders, particularly the black and brown leaders, have used that as an excuse not to do the policies that will help their constituents who need it the most because the DSA policies actually are rooted in what many people would call black liberation politics are rooted in making sure that the least of us can have the housing, health care and safety that they need. That's what it's rooted in. And so don't try to find an excuse not to do something that you wouldn't have done anyway. It's not like if DSA wasn't here all of a sudden would have supported this legislation that people all of a sudden would have supported his policy.
- [19:32]
B
I mean, beyond that, it's so interesting. I mean the polling just even across so many Democrats of various demographic groups shows economic populist viewpoints on the rise, a drop in support, you know, for Israel and wanting to see different foreign policy as Israel prosecuted its war in Gaza. Less and less support among Democrats for the U.S. support of those actions. And yet to your point, you didn't see a lot of the Democratic Party leadership, especially the congressional leadership, both of whom happen to come from Brooklyn, reacting, you know, in a way that speaks to where not just sort of the left wing base, but a lot of Democrats are across, across various, you know, demographic groups. It's just, and, and again that trickles down as you're getting at, to some of the local office holders that are not even the, the leadership.
- [20:28]
A
So I think that's right, that's right. And that's because, you know, APAC still has a lot of money, corporations still have a lot of money and they still focus on now where can we get money and how do we have incumbency protection. That has really been what the focus is, money, power retention and comedy protection. And doing those things without thinking about what policies are going to help people the most, even if it upsets some of our funders, upsets some of our corporations and Republicans do that. So if you're going to do what Republicans do, what's the purpose? And that's been my thing for quite some time. I'm an OG now, so I don't know when that happened. But I keep telling I've spoken to some of our key leaders. These folks are me 20 years ago and maybe you 30 years ago. These are cyclical things that happen and you should adapt, particularly when the policies are correct. Like they've allowed most people don't even know what Democratic socialism means and they've allowed people to make that word be some kind of slur, not knowing. David Dinkins was a member of DSA, Major Owens was a member of DSA. The things that Martin Luther King Jr. Fought for were rooted in democratic socialism. Malcolm X was speaking with democratic socialist leaders across the planet. A Philip Randolph was an avowed democratic socialist. I learned about it from the leadership of Maurice Bishop, Albert Einstein, Helen Keller, were all the democratic socialists. So this is rooted in a lot more than what people think. And the makeup of who has the banner now should not be the excuse for not doing what's right. And the reason they make that excuse is because it is a threat to the power structure that exists. And that's a story as old as time.
- [22:36]
B
There's a lot of establishment figures in New York, though, including the governor and others, though, who say a lot of that might be well and good, but New York already is a very high tax place. We have very large state and city budgets with robust social safety nets. Obviously, there's always questions about the relationship with the federal government, and you got it earlier, some of the changes in policy under the Trump administration. So that's, you know, that's often a different, a ball game what's happening out of D.C. and support for things like affordable housing and food stamps and so many other things where the money often comes a lot from Washington. But in New York, a pretty robust sort of tax and spend and social safety net system that they're saying, how far, how far do you want us to really go here in New York when these are things that should really be done on a national level, like, does that land with you at all? Or is it sort of like you can't. You, you can't think that way when you have to address the politics that are in your own backyard here?
- [23:37]
A
You know, I always call myself a pragmatic optimist. So I do think those things you have to think through, but the problem is they only put it through a certain kind of lens. So one is people are leaving this city, this state, in droves, but it's people who can't afford to live here. So I am all for how do we shrink the budget by one, making sure we're spending wisely. But more importantly, how do you have that conversation when everything is going up? So if housing is going up, if medical costs are going up, if everything you need to live is going up, how do you say that the government budget should go down? So if we want that to happen, people should join in getting the costs of those down so that we can bring the response to those costs down as well. But it's always one before the other, and that doesn't make any sense. And we know that the cost of living is what the problem is, because even with some of those budgets, people are still fleeing in droves. New York. But it's just not the wealthy, it's the working class. It's the black and brown folks who have made these communities desirable for folks to live in.
- [24:42]
B
You've got. What do you think Adriano Espaillat did wrong here? I mean, you've got someone who by almost all measures is a pretty progressive guy, longtime elected official, state legislature, then Congress, has actually done some of what people criticize. A lot of Democrats around. He's actually sort of tried to build a bench. You know, again, that's partly him creating a political machine of his own, but it's still, you know, it's still something that people criticize some of the old guard for not doing when they don't do it, which is helping get, you know, younger generation of elected officials elected. You know, as well. Obviously, we've talked about some of the key issues. Maybe that's the only answer, you know, that he didn't move on some of the more progressive stances that, you know, people say he should have taken and that led to his ouster. Do you think there was also an element here of just being way too complacent? What do you think sort of went wrong for him in particular, because he is, again, someone with a very progressive record.
- [25:45]
A
I think, especially if you compare it to anywhere else in the country, probably pretty progressive. Right. And he's great on immigration. I do think to the point earlier, a lot of folks had trouble moving from where they are on the Israel, Palestine issue. I think that was huge. I do think they had a community that was gentrifying as well, which can't be ignored. And I want to make sure that the communities that help make it desirable get attended to. I also think the electorate is tired of some of the and only way I can think about it, some of the respectability. And, you know, I fall a victim of this sometimes. So I'm not, you know, I can't act like I'm pulling it out. But sometimes the respectability stuff does go too far. And I think constituents are looking for people that are going to push past the norm of how you operate, who are going to push past, hey, I am going to have to go against what my leader says because it is correct for constituents who has to push past. I'm thinking about what I'm going to run for next. That's not the most important thing. The most important thing is doing what is right for the people of this District who are going to push past when the governor or the president or the leader of the House call, I have to fall in line for this, this and this reason they want to push past that. And I think we see people, and that's why sometimes I would always say, you know, just take some of the labels away because you will see, oh, progressives in this thing. There's very similarities. But who is going to push past the way things are done to move the needle on the things we say we all agree on. And I think that's where the difference lies in who's gonna do that and who's not. I think maybe in a lot of these races, less so in the Antonio Rose race, because I've seen him do these things. And so, you know, there's nothing that's a complete broad stroke. But in a lot of these cases, I believe that that is what the determining factor was.
- [27:58]
B
But so let's talk about New York 7 then. I mean, what happened there? You have basically Mamdani in the DSA with Claire Valdez, a couple other backers, and this enormous groundswell of support for Antonio Reynoso, the outgoing congresswoman, Nydia Velasquez, lots of labor support, the Working Families Party, other elected officials like yourself. What's the, I mean, what, what do you boil it down to?
- [28:27]
A
Call it a whooping is what I believe the terminology is. And, you know, that's just what it was. And it's, I mean, to your point, there was a lot of us, we had the attorney general to exchange. I do think the legacy of nitty Velasquez could have been honored a lot more there because one of the things that, one of the things, one of the problems I have is whether you agree with folks or not, we should honor the work that brought us to a point where we're discussing issues that 10, 20 years ago, we just couldn't. And we have to find a way to do that. We can, we can let folks know that it might be time to move a new direction, but we should honor the work that they did to get there because it wasn't easy. You live in a world now where people think having a black president is, oh, we can do that. Even a world where talking about public safety and police not being the first responders to mental health is a simple thing and it is not. It took a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get here, so we should honor that. With that said, I mean, if there, I mean, obviously the zone effect is bigger all across the city. If there's one place that it is, you know, bright red, yellow, orange, it's in that district. And so that is a huge, huge thing. If there's one place you wanted to do this, it would be there. I do think the changing neighborhoods as well, cannot be understated in terms of. Of what happened. Yeah.
- [29:58]
B
I mean, Antonio Reynosa would very, you know, very candidly say I've been. I'm not like you were just saying about being an OG now. He would say, you know, I've now been around a while, but so many of the voters in this district don't even know about my old work, like defeating Vito Lopez and with the new king's Democrats. But at the same time, elections are about telling that story and also offering a platform and then bring, you know, convincing voters to vote for you. And, you know, it's just, it's just so fascinating to me that someone with a track record and a story to tell of doing very progressive politics in the city would get beaten. Not only beaten, but beaten by such a wide margin against somebody who most of the voters, like, had no idea who she was, you know, going into this campaign.
- [30:46]
A
Now, I would say I feel like this is one case where I'm just so angry at the decisions our Democratic leaders have made that brought us Trump twice. And because they've chosen to ignore so many things, I think Antonio Reynosa paid for that. And that is something that it, you
- [31:04]
B
know, just by virtue of being the. The sort of more incumbent, like figure or.
- [31:10]
A
Yes. Or being attached to that. Yes, I believe. And he shouldn't have because that's just not. It wasn't a great description of who he was. He was not apac backed. And so, you know, I think just back to the esperat racing. I hope I pronounced that correct race. What they did in the past few days, I think cost election. It was disgusting. It was probably tight until then. It was disgusting. Saying Haitian like it's a curse word was disgusting. Was anti black, anti Muslim rhetoric. All of those things leading up to the last days probably tipped it over what would have been a tighter race. So I want to make sure I make that clear. It's disgusting. It should be called out. But I think, you know, you have perfect storms. I mean, you know, when Zorin was a singular, really good talent, when he ran for mayor, also happened to have the worst people you'd want as mayor. And Andrew Cuomo and Eric Adams here, I think you have a fertile ground of a movement of folks who really want something different. Were able to ascribe it to someone, whether it was correct or not, attached to the Mamdani effect and the DSA effect. So I think everything collided here, and it was tough for. I think sometimes it's tough to break through when people have made up their mind. And so you talk to certain people, but when it comes to Donald Trump, the truth doesn't matter. People have made up their mind. And I found people really bought into some of the things they heard about Antonio that just weren't correct. Or as you mentioned, they were new and didn't know about the work that he did, found out about Claire Valdez first, learned about who she was, and then just bought into that. And so anything else you said, you know, it was hard for people to listen, but really they were much more. It was so aligned on 99.9% of the things that were there.
- [33:11]
B
Yeah, I mean, that goes back to this issue of there being this primary in the first place, as opposed to the ascendant mayor and the outgoing congresswoman, who she had supported him in the primary, which was at the time going out on a bit of a limb, them not coming together to sort of compromise around someone to back. You've got, she, she, she's pretty upset with Mayor Mamdani now. You've got Attorney General Tish James pretty upset with him about the way he's handled, I think, that race. And then she also has been an espeot ally, so she seems, you know, pretty frustrated with him around that race as well. So what, I mean, what's your read on that? Did. Has. Did Momdani. I mean, he, he won these races. So, you know, it sort of seems like he put his political capital on the line and instead of losing it, he's now grown some, even if he's frustrated some people and maybe pissed off some allies. But do you think he got out over his skis here? Like, did he, did he go too far? Has he burned more bridges than the winds are worth? What do you, what do you make of this?
- [34:20]
A
What I want to frame, first of all. And I just have to give credit here because Mamdani came in and said, I am going to do things differently. I am going to support and change a change in structure. And then he uses political capital right away to do that. You don't usually see that people come in and they calculate and they this and that, and then they kind of worry about where they're going, so they don't use that capital. I have to give him credit. He said, I'm going to do this. And he did it. He could have done the easy way. He could have made more, you know, kind of machinations. Where am I trying to go? He did it. So I just want to give credit for that. And frankly, if more folks had done that before him, we probably wouldn't be in this situation now. There are some things that I probably would have done differently. That Antonio race in the seventh is one of them. I wish that wasn't a place that we now have to do healing from, but we do. I'm also not the mayor. I'm also not him. So what I would have done, I'm not sure is a defining factor. And actually it wasn't right. We were on two separate sides. There is some healing that I think needs to be done because, you know, winning races, you still have to govern. So governing is different than winning the campaigns. You can win the campaigns, and if the people who you need to govern with or feel away, it might be difficult. So there is healing that needs to occur. I'm hoping to be, you know, a part of that healing. I generally.
- [35:51]
B
What's that look like other than, you know, getting everybody together to talk about shared, you know, policy goals at this point because the election season's over. Does that look like trying to figure out ways to better compromise on candidates to back in the future? You know, like some of that happened in New York 10 with me.
- [36:10]
A
I. One, I try not to take racist personally. That's just me. So I've always operated like. And I got enough knives in my back to like, prove that that's how just, just how I handle it. Because elections come and go and you're supposed to just move on. And so when I get irate or when I. Like when you see me fight up, it's usually around I'm human. So I can't say, like it's 100, but it's usually around policy. It's usually about things that are going to harm people, and we have to stop that harm. And so my hope is we can still differentiate these races from the policy that is needed to happen to save and help people. And it has to be rooted in folks who are from those communities. So black and brown communities, immigrant communities that have been there, they have to be part of this conversation in a very real way. I also think part of that healing is actually acknowledging the people who have been here before who have actually done the work. When I came in, there were a lot of black elected I did not agree with, and we were on the opposite side of not just policy, but of races. But I went out of my way to acknowledge, hey, I would not be here without you. And so I want to acknowledge the work you did, the things that I'm talking about, whether we're not in the same space now, and you may have drifted a little bit. You were talking about these things when it was hard, when it was just you and a bunch of folks who didn't look like you and didn't agree with you. And I believe that type of acknowledgment will go a long way in the healing process, even if everyone is not on the same page. I think there's just a feeling of dismissal of hard work that occurred in communities that nobody wanted to live in. And that's just not. It is not hard. It was not easy to do that.
- [37:56]
B
I mean, every time I heard Nidi Velasquez come up and Claire Valdez talk about her, she was. She was doing that. She was giving her a lot of praise and credit and saying, you know, this isn't about her. It's a democratic process. And, you know, we're running our race for this reasons and that. So. But it seems like the way the mayor maneuvered here, you know, maybe. Maybe more acknowledgement from him as now these two members of Congress that he just ousted, you know, have their. Their final months in office. I'm not sure that if that heals
- [38:28]
A
things, but I think it's more. More acknowledgement. I think there's organizational acknowledgment that has to occur, and there has to be earnest conversations about listening to folks who have been like that. That has to happen. I think saying it is important and actually showing it in a real way is important as well.
- [38:52]
B
So, so what happens with the sort of progressive movement that's not the DSA right now, the Working Families Party, a lot of labor. What's the, what's the path forward? When it looks like if there are races where that movement is divergent from dsa, DSA will have a significant upper hand. Although, you know, things can change election to election, of course, and the mayor may not stay this popular for much longer. It usually, you know, mayors, their. Their popularity diminishes the more they have to make tough governmental decisions and so forth. Forth. But what is the, you know, a lot of your criticism is, of course, more towards the sort of establishment and moderate Democrats who aren't moving with the progressive, you know, movement of voters. But what about that sort of progressive but not quite socialist movement? What's. What's Next there.
- [39:43]
A
You know, I think actually I would just say, I think most people actually democratic socialists, unless you call it democratic socialists. So most of the things that are being pushed are actually things that people want. And so I always have to remind folks that you would not have a free public library system. You will not have Social Security, you not have Medicare, Medicaid, you will not have A K through 12 school system. These are all socialist concepts. So I just want to clarify that because people are being told somehow that it's something other than it is. And it's important to put the democratic part in there because the political system actually stays remarkably the same. It is the exploitive capitalist system that is the thing that people are trying to go after. And I think people are understanding that an exploitive capitalist system that creates a trillionaire who singularly can probably solve poverty in this country, existing with abject poverty is just immoral. And that's a system that I don't think people should celebrate. But to your point directly, I mean, I think there's existential conversations that everybody is going to have and should have, by the way. I just want to be clear. Even, you know, when I think there's ways that DSA can show up better. In some of these spaces, people pretend like the Democratic Party doesn't have their own work to do and how they've showed up. So I always am amazed by people who are talking about one organization. People complain about wfp, now they complain about DSA as if the Democratic Party has a stellar record in these communities. You can talk, we should talk about what they've been able, what they have done and not done for black and brown communities, immigrant communities, like it's not what it should be. And if it was, we wouldn't be in this situation. So I just want to make sure we have a tendency sometimes to just focused on one group or organization. When nobody is above reproach, I try to focus on policies. And so my hope is that the group you spoke about will, as we do, put together a platform and policies that will help the masses of people who need it. And then we need to find a way of how we work together to get that done, whether it is legislatively in the different houses and places of power and campaigns, there are campaigns where we can work together. And we should figure out what that is, because I think that helps everyone. We did see that in a lot of places, by the way. We did see WFP and DSA and folks like myself and others in different places across the state. You know, we saw some good things happening. And I do think, you know, in, you know, New York 7, that was a missed opportunity to do that. And so my hope is that will find more opportunities to do that.
- [42:38]
B
Were there any state legislative races that you were particularly surprised by? I mean, it's interesting, of course, that Assemblymember Jordan Wright seems to be the one sitting office holder that the DSA challenged who didn't lose in the primary here. But he was also the one, perhaps out of deference to, you know, both him and Keith Wright, his father, as the, you know, someone was still something of a political operation in Harlem and then, of course, leading the Manhattan Democrats. You know, maybe there's some deference there because Mayor Mamdani didn't endorse against any of the sitting legislators at the state level.
- [43:23]
A
You know, I am. No, New York 7 was just a hard. A hard hit, but I actually had a pretty decent night other than that. I mean, I actually endorsed Jordan. Right, right. Eli Northup, Brad Lander, David Orkin against Jennifer Rajkumar jgr. So there was some. Some spaces where things work together really, really well. And so, you know, I. I want to hold on to that. I think. I think any one or two are not surprising. I just think. I think it's the route that happened, just the clearing of the board.
- [44:00]
B
So between. Between the Goldman and Espail losses and some of the assembly races in Brooklyn, do you think there's reason for questions around Hakeem Jeffries power and whether people will be reconsidering whether he really should be the next speaker if Democrats take control of the House? Like, how are you thinking about that If. If some of these politics in his own backyard are really not going his way? Obviously, being speaker of the House, you've got, you know, at least what, 218 members of your conference, so you've got lots more people than the New York delegation. But there's interesting questions here about whether he is in tune with, you know, the Democratic voters of New York. And then maybe that also means beyond what. What are your thoughts on sort of where he stands coming out of.
- [44:55]
A
By the way, I do want to just call up as well. What happened to Dan Goldman in that coffee shop was also reprehensible. And, you know, Dan Goldman is a very decent person. So I just want to make sure we lift that up as well. And I also had a good relationship with Congresswoman Esper, as I mentioned. He was very good on things like immigration. I think it'd be great to see the first black speaker I still have a great relationship with Hakeem Jeffries and hope he becomes the first black speaker. I also think and hope that he is one of the leaders that kind of take a reset about what's going on here and really listen to what constituencies are saying across the country, by the way, but especially here in New York City and across the state, this thing is moving in a direction that many of us called for a very long time. And I think it is fine. I think the best leaders take a moment and just not adapt to something that is bad, but adapt to something that's good. Take an assessment and say, I have to look at these things and realize that people are telling me something. And so I really hope he listens to that. And it is a great example. You know, Chiyo Sei is similar to what I did 20 years ago when I took on an incumbent councilman. It is similar to what the future speaker, Hakeem Jeffries, did 30 years ago when he took on a progressive, black progressive leader twice. And so we have to stop pretending that this is not what happens cyclically and generationally and do different than what the folks we were running against did. And let's just receive what's being told to us, because not only is it being told to us, and we're feeling it whether you want to or not, oftentimes I think it is the correct message. Back when Bernie was running and I was a Bernie delegate twice, I believe that messaging was the best messaging for Donald Trump, and we should have leaned into it. But what has happened with many of these leaders, they do everything, but they don't not just lean into it. They do everything to stop it, to hurt it, to pretend like it's not the right thing, that it's bad. And now here we are, Hakeem Jeffries,
- [47:25]
B
that, what you're saying doesn't seem like his style, really. He's been in this, you know, extended war of sorts with DSA now, given the growth in Brooklyn and beyond. But, you know, now, again, he's lost some more races in his. In his backyard here in the State assembly, not to mention some of the incumbents in the House that, you know, he was supporting. Are you part of those potential conversations to try to bring people together to get him to. To move, as you were just talking about. Or how, like, how does that happen? Is that really more for him to make a decision about his politics?
- [48:01]
A
Also, like, I also want to point out, just I said, like, I'm not the mayor. I'm also not in the position Hakeem is, I will say, he does have to juggle. I get frustrated trying to juggle New York City politics. I can't imagine trying to juggle the United States politics under Donald Trump. So I do want to give, you know, some, some grace there. I am happy to be part of any conversations. The things I'm saying here. I do have other private conversations about and things that, you know, I don't repeat it, but, you know, I'm going to continue to have those conversations. Hey, I'm just public advocate, so folks can take it or not take it. But I think not taking it is causing problems. It just is. And not just personal problems where you may lose a seat, but problems where our constituents are being hurt and they're being harmed. They're not getting the things that they need. And that's what I always want to focus on. So, you know, I'm happy to be a part of those conversations. People want. If they don't, it's fine. I'm happy to keep having the private conversations and keep pushing. You know, as you know, I've been entrenched in multiple spaces for a long time, and I am real. I honestly believe in the powers of democratic socialism now for a very long time. I believe that way we've been operating are wrong. And I am, you know, I'm really black and have been for a very long time. And I come from those spaces and those places, those spaces as well, and they don't have to be competing. And I think folks that are forcing more competition than needs to be are less worried about what's right for constituents and more worried about what's right for the incumbency protection model and the power retention model. And the problem with the power retention model is that it's power for its own sake. We want to get power. Let's get the power to actually help people not to continue a system that has been harmful.
- [50:00]
B
Come more questions, I'll let you go. Appreciate the time, as always. One of the things that leads into is that Hakeem Jeffries has, you know, has. Has to worry more really about Democrats keeping purple seats and winning purple seats in New York and beyond, as you were getting at there. I mean, whether it's Brad Lander or Dan Goldman isn't necessarily that significant in the bigger national picture of whether Democrats control the House or not. And he actually could even be voted in to be speaker if there's a Democratic majority. So he has to balance all that. So my question for you, because this is, you know, I know Something you've talked about and thought about a lot is we're now heading into general election season, right. And there's going to be a lot of questions around, you know, vote blue, no matter who. And are the progressives going to help rally votes for Governor Hochul? And are moderates going to help rally votes for some of the progressives who might have won in certain places but might have of, you know, challenging general elections? Maybe that's not in New York City, but it could be in other places. How are you thinking about that unity and the general election here in New York, how the mayor approaches that, how the governor approaches that and other leaders of the party? Because Governor Hochul only won by six points last time. That was obviously after a primary that you contested against her, but she only won. You guys didn't really come together after that. You know, she's, she didn't have a real primary this time, but she's clearly counting on Mayor Mamdani to help bring out, you know, that excited base now. But I don't know if that excited base is going to be excited for her given she was just mostly very hesitant to, to listen to them on a lot of the tax issues and so forth. So how do you, how do you think about that and the role of some of these New York leaders as we head into general election season?
- [51:53]
A
It was a great question. I will say focusing solely on purple seats has brought us Donald Trump. So it didn't work. It's not like you were successful in doing that. Second, I have been one to say, I don't want to go out of the frying pan into the fire and tell folks, you know, hold their nose general election and just vote for the, quite frankly, not just the lesser. It's like there is a complete difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. And I hope we see that. Even though I wish there was other options that we'd have put forward. But that's not where we were. That's where we were was a decision we have to make. What I would say is I want the Democratic Party to stop pushing people that voters saying they don't want and then saying, you have to vote for them because this person is worse. Stop doing that. We are paying for that. You've done that multiple times and we are paying for that. And so what I'm hoping is that they would talk to some of these folks that are winning elections and say, like, what is working, what is not. Let's find some. Because you trying to shove, quote, unquote, moderate Mainstream messenger down the throat of everybody has caused tremendous amounts of pain. And so at some point I can't keep blaming the voters for not coming out, although I'm going to encourage them. I have to blame the party for not giving them someone to vote for. And with that said, it is true that not every place is New York City, but what I have found even going around in this state and we see it coming true as we seek and comments shout out to Mo Brown and others across the state, we see that this messaging can work. And so if we take the time to not change what folks are trying to say, but change how they describe it. If I speak to someone now about should law enforcement be mental health responders, most folks say probably not. Well, should we take some of that funding and give it to people who should? A lot of people would agree unless you say defund the police and then they'll disagree. But like the, the, the purpose of those things are the same thing. And so what I feel folks should be having. Let's find the thing that people agree on unless you call it something they don't want to hear and find a way to messaging because the message actually works. People do want to stay in their homes, they do want health care, they do want a, they do want to feel safe and not feel over policed, but they want to support their law enforcement doing the job that they were supposed to do and make sure everybody is able to do their job. These things can work in many, many different places. So my thing is I feel like let's find the way to message the thing that people want instead of pushing it away. When Donald Trump won the second time, they refused to adopt messaging around Israel and Gaza and Palestine. That was working and they thought simply the message of abortion and running around moderate Republicans was going to work. Republican light has not worked. So they could have adopted the messaging that was working around affordability, around what's happening in Gaza, Israel and Palestine, around public safety. They chose not to. So those were strategic decisions that were made. And I'm saying my hope is they make different strategic decisions going to November so that people feel like this is someone I need to come out for, not someone I should vote against. And I hope Kathy Hochul does something similar. I really wish she would have showed up and endorsed against Andrew Cuomo. I think that would have been a great sign of in the primary, in the primary and leadership. And she didn't. And I think that was a huge missed opportunity. You know, Tish James showed she did
- [56:08]
B
in the general Though she did in
- [56:09]
A
the general, yes, but that was already done. We she almost sat by and let this man, who we all know would have been bad, become mayor. That's not leadership. Shout out to Attorney General Chish James, who stepped in and said, even though it's gonna be hot, I'm gonna come in and try to do something. And I think that's the type of thing that people wanna see more of. And if you see more of that, then I think people will come out to vote for something. I think they're showing that they're tired of coming out to vote against something.
- [56:37]
B
Very quickly on that though, Republicans are immediately using the growth of Mamdani's power and Democratic socialists in New York City to now run, you know, using that against Governor Hochul and other Democrats in more purple areas of the state for congressional races, for state Senate races. On Long island in Mike Lawler's district where Democrats are hoping to flip that seat. Are you worried at all that some of the stuff that, you know, works in the more left leaning areas of New York City is going to hurt Democrats in some of those more purple areas, whether it's the entire state in some or those other districts.
- [57:17]
A
So the answer is yes. And so we have to find a way to translate what's actually happening and not just simply, not simply just buy into what's being sold by Republicans. We have a tendency to just let Republicans run the conversation from barrel reform to affordability instead of having the courage to tell people what's actually going on. And so, so it's a combination of what you just said and then sending a billion dollars to the Buffalo stadium and then refusing to really hold on to the tax derivation, pushing back on that. So there are policies that I think are combined with the attacks that Republicans are doing. So we keep trying to, I have found around these issues we've either try to ignore a problem or somehow try to say we're just like the Republicans in their concern and we should stop doing that because we're not. And when they say Democratic socialism, you know, I happen to believe in it, but you can say I don't believe that, but I believe this, this and this, and this is what they are pushing. Is your family sick? Do you want health care? Then we should give it to you. But the problem is they don't often support those policies. And so when you don't support those policies, I think is a bigger problem than the one you're speaking about.
- [58:44]
B
We get these very different approaches. You have someone like a Pat Ryan who does what you're talking about, basically. And then you have someone like a Tom Suozzi who basically says, the Democratic Socialists should have their own political party. You get those very opposite sort of approaches to things. But they both win.
- [59:00]
A
Yeah. Yes. And I understand. Well, they both win, but we all lose. But I would say that to that point, I find it interesting because many of our leaders, as I mentioned, came from the outside. They came to the Democratic Party saying, I want to remove the leaders that are there because I have better ideas. I'm not sure how that's different than what's being happened now with the Democratic Socialists. So I think it's just people are allowing themselves. I think people just adopting things that they are not sure what they're adopting and they bought into. You can mention dei. Nope. People have no idea what DEI is, but they hear that word and it elicits an emotional response that shuts down any critical thinking. So I think the same thing happens here. Thomas Wozzy has a particular constituency. I will say this. You know, I try to tell folks the communities I come from are more conservative than people think. And I have had to take the time to walk through with people, what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and when I've done that, people come along because it helps them. I think folks don't want to take the time to do that. And that's what we just have to do. Like, if anything we learn in 2026, we have to learn. Like, we got to walk people through why we're doing. And, you know, I really hope we do that, because this notion of I'm not this other person who's terrible is correct, but it's not working. And so I want to stop. Stop putting the onus. It is correct. I'm going to tell people to come out and vote. Like, I'm just going to do that. But stop putting the onus on them to have to repeatedly vote for people that don't want to vote for. And so stop shoving people down their throat. Let's. Let's get some candidates that people are excited about. And when you see that excitement, from Bernie to Mom Donnie, stop trying to temper it, feed into it, because what they're saying makes sense. And this notion, like, it is literally people who are trying to choose and push inclusion of humanity versus people who are trying to choose exclusion and scarcity politics. And, you know, I will choose inclusion and love and bringing people in and make sure folks have what they need to live over the exclusion anytime. And that's what Democrats say that they're for and about, but they don't always show up that way.
- [61:45]
B
All right, let's leave it there. Jumani Williams, New York City Public Advocate Appreciate the time and thoughts. And of course, we'll be touching base as all this continues to develop.
- [61:52]
A
Appreciate you.
- [61:53]
B
Thanks for joining me.
- [61:55]
A
Anything. We gotta agree, DSM and Donnie had a pretty awesome night.
- [61:59]
B
I think everybody, I don't think anybody can deny that.
- [62:02]
A
And, and I have to end it with Nixon. Five.
- [62:04]
B
All right. Before we begin. All right, take care. Thanks a lot.
- [62:07]
A
Appreciate.