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Senator John Liu on State Budget Negotiations and Education Issues
00:48:36
State Senator John Liu, a Queens Democrat and cha…
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- [00:08]
A
Hello and welcome to Max Politics. This is Ben Max coming to you from New York Law School and its center for New York City and State Law. Thanks for tuning in for the show. Speaking here on Tuesday, April 21, 2026. My guest today on the show is New York State Senator John Lew, a Queens Democrat who chairs the Senate's New York City Education Committee. We will discuss the status of state budget negotiations as Governor Kathy Hochul and the legislative majorities in the Senate and Assembly work toward a spending and policy package. We are a few weeks into the new state fiscal year already and as usual, the state budget is late, but lawmakers have been passing what are known as budget extenders to keep paying the state's bills while the new budget is put together. That budget will include about $265 billion in spending, with the two largest buckets being local education aid, Medicaid, and it will include compromise on a variety of fiscal and policy issues, including some related to education, though there are also some education issues that may get bumped out of the budget and into the legislative session to follow, which runs through early June, along with education aid formulas and how much aid New York City will receive from the state. Other key education decisions to be made or not made in this budget agreement and include whether the state will grant the city more time to meet legal class size reduction requirements or perhaps grant the city more money to help meet those requirements on or closer to the current legal timeline based on a state law passed in 2022 and very much championed by my guest today, State Senator John Lew. And it had a planned six year incremental implementation rollout whereby the percentage of classrooms across the city in compliance with the new class size caps had to increase each year. Also on the education docket is whether the state will extend, perhaps with modifications, mayoral control of New York City schools, which is set to expire at the end of June of this year. The governor has proposed a clean four year extension with no changes of mayoral control of New York City schools, and Mayor Zoram Hamdani has said he would like that. Mamdani, who's expressed opposition to mayoral control in the past, has changed his mind now that he's actually mayor of New York City, responsible for an education system of roughly 900,000 students and 1600 schools. Those education issues and more with Senator Lew ahead and also a quick broader discussion of how he thinks the new mayor and new schools Chancellor Kamar Samuels are doing in their first few months in charge of the school system. And I'll ask Senator Lew about other top issues in state budget negotiations. There's a variety of outstanding policy matters being negotiated, including on some of Governor Hochul's top priorities this year, like adjustments to the laws related to auto insurance, environmental and green transition laws, state environmental review law that can delay or dissuade housing development, and much more. Senator John Lew ahead in just a moment. Speaking of state budget negotiations, by the way, in case you missed it, I very recently spoke here on the show with the state Senate Majority Leader, Andrea Stewart Cousins, one of the three most important people who negotiate the state budget, along with the governor and the Assembly Speaker, Carl Hastie. And we got into a lot on the status of some of these major issues in state budget negotiations and a lot about how the state Senate and the state may help New York City with its budget challenges, as well as a lot of these policy considerations and how the governor has infused her top priorities into state budget negotiations, as always happens in Albany. And speaking of Mayor Mamdani, recently on the show, I did an episode on Mamdani's first 100 days as mayor and what comes next. And I was joined by two great veteran journalists for that conversation, Sally Goldenberg of the New York Times and Bob Hart of New York One. Those and a bunch of other good recent episodes in the Max Politics feed for you to check out after you listen to this one with Senator John Lew, who's been in the state Senate since 2019. He represents the 16th state Senate district of Northeast Queens, which includes some or all of the neighborhoods of Flushing, Bayside and more. And prior to joining the State Senate, John Lew was New York City comptroller for eight years, a citywide tenure that came after he was a member of the New York City Council. So he's got a lot of varied government experience. And he was also a candidate for mayor in the way back when 2013 Democratic primary for Mayor State Senator John Lew is with me now, returning to the show. He's in Albany, where he's part of negotiations over the state budget, which will be a massive $265 billion or so spending and policy package that will come together any day or week now through compromise among Governor Hochul and the two Democratic majorities of the state Legislature. Senator Liu is a Democrat from Queens and chairs the Senate's New York City Education Committee. Senator LOU thanks for joining me. How are you?
- [05:23]
B
Pretty good.
- [05:24]
A
Appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. What, so what's, what's the forecast here? I had Majority Leader Stuart Cousins on the show a week or so ago, and she said by, by May 1, there would be a budget. She. She sounded pretty confident about that. How do you feel now here on April 21?
- [05:42]
B
I feel confident about that as well. I know that things are starting to move this week and by next week, I feel confident that we can begin the voting on the various bills that make up the New York State budget.
- [05:54]
A
All right. What are you seeing and hearing progress on? You think there's compromise coming together on some of these big outstanding issues? Auto insurance reform, changes to the state's climate act and environmental regulations, immigrant protections. Are these things you get. You're getting to some compromise there.
- [06:13]
B
You. You have your finger on all the big issues that are in play right now. As you, as you mentioned before, the budget is much more than just revenues and expenditures by the state government. The budget is one ginormous law that often contains dozens, if not sometimes hundreds of pieces of legislation that would be bills on themselves, but get rolled into the budget as part of the process. And we are getting closer. I feel good about getting closer, even though we're not there yet. Want to make auto insurance more affordable for our constituents, although we want to make it more affordable without taking the protections away that insurance companies provide our constituents with. Not a full agreement yet on what, if anything, can be done to delay the climate law and what impact that kind of delay actually would have on these astronomical utility bills that our constituents are faced with. And then, of course, we all can see how visibly ICE is in our communities around the country and even in the state of New York, where families are being taken apart and just some instances where it really offends our sensibilities as Americans. We're trying to make sure that the people of New York State have some kind of protection and guarantee of due process. That's what we're talking about, protection and guarantee of due process so that we can all thrive in the state of New York, which always thrives when immigrants and new immigrants and new Americans can pursue the American dream and be productive members of our New York society.
- [08:09]
A
Now, we're going to get into your main focus area as the New York City Education Committee chair of education issues in a minute, of course. But on any of these other outstanding topics, one of the other things the governor has been focused on is changing some of the state's environmental review laws to allow more housing to be built. It seems like there's maybe been more agreement on reforming CECRA there to allow for more housing developments than on some of these other issues we just listed. But. But on any of these, on this list of some of these policy matters, are there any that you're most concerned about? Are there any that you think could really continue to delay the budget? Are there things that you think might get actually kicked out of budget negotiations? The governor seemed pretty set on trying to get a compromise on all these things in the budget, where, of course, the governor has the most leverage in these negotiations. So any, anything particularly here that you're most either worried about or, or intent on sort of trying to make sure that the right priorities are in the final deal? Any particulars on top of your list here that aren't the education issues we'll get into in a minute?
- [09:17]
B
Well, you're, you're right. I did not highlight in my top three, number four, which is a pretty high priority also. That's a secret reform. There is a great deal of bureaucracy that is currently involved in building anything, including housing, which we all understand we desperately need, all throughout the state of New York. That's something that I think we will probably reach agreement on first. But I'm very concerned about immigrant protections. I think what we have seen with what seems to be in my mind is a, is a military force that is dedicated to enforcing Trump's whims and caprices. This is, and while we have seen them capable of doing, you know, not killing in cold blood American citizens in other parts of the country, and I, unfortunately, I, I, unfortunately, I think it could happen here in the state of New York as well. We need to make sure that people feel safe. I mean, a basic thing such as having ICE officers and law enforcement officers not wear masks at the, as they carry out their responsibility. That is just a basic fundamental principle, American principle, that those accusing you of things are not hidden or masked from view. And not only do we have masked ICE enforcers, we now, as predictably, have people who are masquerading as ICE officers under cover of mask and committing crimes against people. I mean, this, this is where we are now. So we need.
- [11:03]
A
Do you think a ban is a ban on ICE enforcement agents wearing masks? Do you think that will be in the deal?
- [11:10]
B
Other states, other states have already successfully enacted their statutes. And I, that is the minimum of what I think we need in the state of New York. We, we, you know, as I said before, people are starting to pretend to be ICE agents because no one knows who these people are under these masks and therefore committing crimes against New Yorkers. This is something, at very minimum, we need to stop. We also have to make sure that our schools are safe. Places that kids are not going to be removed, that if there is any ICE involvement or activity in a school and other specific safe places, that none of these activities are permissible unless there's some kind of a judicial warrant, a court order. And so this is, these are the kinds of balances we're trying to strike in the budget. If it takes a couple of weeks longer, this will set the tone for the rest of the Trump administration and for many years to come.
- [12:19]
A
Let me ask you a couple questions about the fiscal side of the state budget, which often doesn't get enough attention because all this policy gets jammed in here. You're a former city comptroller turned state legislator, former city council member before you were a comptroller of the city. Do you bring any of that lens to your work in the Senate? Now in terms of, of there doesn't seem to be a lot of concern other than really from the governor at times, but, but even not so much there about sort of some of the concerns that there's, you know, too much increases in spending year to year, that there's some of these, you know, concerning out your budget gaps, you don't know what could happen in terms of loss of federal funding. Now, the state does have pretty significant reserves set aside. So there is, you know, some fiscal responsibility certainly happening. But do you, do, you know, bring some of that lens to these negotiations sometimes? Because I know you are pushing those
- [13:17]
B
lenses then are fused into my cornea. So I can't. Okay, I can't not bring those lenses. My experience as a former comptroller of New York City, and even when I was in the City Council, I had a fiscal lens because that was, that was what my career, my private, private sector career was before I entered government service. We have to keep things fiscally real and responsible. And New York, both city and state, have largely done so for many decades now. We have healthy reserves in the state government that is the underpinning of the state budget. But, you know, it's not just about figuring out how less to do with, but also understanding that there is an economic base underneath these budgets. And the economic base of New York is substantial, very substantial, and so substantial that we can attack them more. Well, we can offset a lot of what the federal government has imposed on our state, literally taking care, taking health care away from hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers by asking the people who just got a huge tax cut from Trump last year to pay more in state taxes. It's perfectly reasonable to do that on an individual basis as well. As on a corporate level, that kind of economic base is strong in New York, and it remains strong. The only argument that detractors say is that people are going to move out of New York. Well, you know, that is the reality that we have lost some population in the last couple of years. I certainly do not expect that trend to continue. We lost population for a lot of different reasons. The taxes are not the main reason. In fact, the cost of living is the main reason. And if we have a fairer allocation of the tax burden and vis a vis the economic base, I think we can grow our population and grow our economy that much better. So asking people to pay a fair share, particularly those who just got a huge tax cut, is perfectly fair. And to do so by protecting our institution, institutions of education, to provide more housing, and to restore health care to the hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers that Trump took health care away from. These are all perfectly reasonable solutions.
- [16:10]
A
But correct me if I'm wrong, the governor seems totally set against agreeing with that. On increases in income taxes on very high earners and successful corporations. Is there going. Is, is it your understanding that the legislature is going to figure out a way to convince her in a final deal of some of those increases, or you're just sort of making.
- [16:31]
B
Well, I'm heartened by. The governor understands. She, she gets around quite a bit. I know she sees some of the difficulties and ordeals that our families are going through. A couple of months ago, even as early, even as late as a couple weeks ago, the governor was insistent that there'd be no new taxes. As you know, Ben, last week she proposed a tax on luxury secondary homes not even owned by New Yorkers. And that's raising a significant amount of revenue for New York, New York City, to be. To be precise. But it's a movement in the right direction. And I know, I hope, and I'm confident that we'll move even further in the right direction in these last days of the budget negotiations.
- [17:25]
A
Right. It seems like that pied a terre tax is potentially a sign of some other revenue raisers to come, but they might not be the income tax increases or the corporate tax increases that the governor's been so publicly against, I imagine. I mean, there's a whole suite of things that you and the Senate put in your one House budget that the mayor, you know, proposed for the state to, you know, look at for revenue raisers. So that was actually the next question I was going to ask you is, you know, what. What do you foresee beyond that? Piet Terror tax, you know, happening in terms of aid to New York City, how will the state help the city with its fiscal challenges? And that perhaps ties us into some of the education topics, because one of those things could be increases in education aid through changes to the foundation aid formula. So will you say a little bit generally about other ways you think the state might get a deal on the budget helping New York City and then perhaps specifically on the education aid.
- [18:25]
B
The governor herself has proposed providing a substantial amount of granting for New York City to help with its dire fiscal constraints right now, fiscal constraints that were not created by the current and relatively new administration. So we feel some responsibility to help the city of New York in the Mamdani administration get through this very difficult time. But in addition to the grants that the governor has already talked about and essentially signed off on both the Senate budget resolutions and the assembly budget resolutions, envision allowing the city of New York to have some level of self determination and impose the taxes themselves to raise at least another couple billion dollars to help with what is currently a budget deficit for New York City. That's a little over $5 billion. So these are in our respective chambers budget packages. The next few days we'll see the kind of like the reconciliation of our two legislative proposals along with the governor's executive proposal. And so we'll see exactly what happens. But I feel confident that we will help the city get through a difficult time and help the Mamdani administration, which in my opinion has gone off to a good start to achieving the legally required balanced budget by June 30th. And part of that additional part of that financial assistance will be in the form of school aid. You mentioned changes in the foundation formula weights. Foundation 8 is the primary method by which we provide state budgetary dollars for public schools all throughout the state. And the largest chunk, as you imagine, as you could imagine, comes to New York City. I think that there will be hundreds of millions of dollars more for New York City public schools in the state budget. That's going to be resolved soon. And that will also help the city meet its educational requirements, not the least of which would be a reduction to overcrowded classrooms, which Mayor Mamdani early on had committed to and continues to commit to
- [21:02]
A
now in that. Well, first, let me just follow up on the changes to foundation aid. Do you know where that's likely to land in terms of there's different conversations about more aid based on students in temporary housing or English language learners? Any clarity on sort of how that
- [21:23]
B
the current foundation aid does provide Some additional school funding for kids who are English language learners. These kids are all throughout the state of New York. It does require a little bit more cost to fully educate these students, which then in the future produce massive amounts of productivity for our state in general and our economy and tax base. So there is a thought to increase the weight with regard to English language learners and also have a weight that specifically recognizes that we have a huge number of students who are in transitional housing in New York city. We have 152,000. I mean, think about that. 152,000 kids who are in transitional housing, or what some people may call homeless. These kids are facing massive challenges, educational and otherwise, and they're in our public schools. And we need to make sure we deliver the education that is going to help them and their families get on their feet and set them up for success in the future. So these are two particular weights that are being discussed, and I. I feel confident we'll make it into the final state budget. Of course, I would have also liked to see a. A regional cost index addition for New York City, recognizing that it. It just. Things just cost a lot more in New York City in terms of running our schools. But unfortunately, that does not seem to be part of the equation right now.
- [23:07]
A
Now, on the flip side of that discussion, there's this debate in the city that's been happening the last several years, especially as enrollment has dropped in the school system from roughly 1.1 million students to roughly 900,000 students. And a lot of schools, you know, certain schools have lost significant amounts, you know, of students. Yet there's been a policy in this. In the city of this quote, unquote, hold harmless policy, where there's been no reduction in funding for schools even as they've lost quite a few students? Do you agree with that policy? Do you think that that needs to be rethought now? You know, in some ways, that was going to be a temporary pandemic policy, and then it's basically just continued because nobody politically and for some educational reasons, of course, wants to cut money from schools. But there's a lot of discussion. Comptroller Mark Levine was here talking with me on this show about the need to combine some of the smaller schools in the city because, you know, there's been such enrollment drops in certain places. How do you think that should happen on the other end, when you're sending all this money from the state to the city? Do you think there needs to be some rethinking of sort of how dollars are tied to Enrollment in schools and some of that thinking around merging some of the schools that have lost a lot of enrollment.
- [24:28]
B
Those are difficult questions that I know the Department of Education or New York City Public schools, as they like to call themselves now are working on. From my perspective, I think it's. It's not good policy to dismantle existing infrastructure. And what I mean by that is school buildings. To the extent that we can better utilize the school buildings and the school infrastructure, that's something that clearly should be done. And as. As you're fully aware of, we are also at the same time working to reduce overcrowded class sizes in New York City. That has to be a priority. It is a priority. It is a priority of the Mamdani administration. And when we passed that legislation back in 2022, we fully understood that enrollment was projected to decline in New York City public schools for the next few years, which is actually one of the reasons the timing was good. It's far easier to reduce New York City class sizes down to state and national norms in a time where the enrollment is decreasing, or at least not fast growing, than if the school population was growing rapidly. And so that's also helped the city come into compliance with the class size limitations, which then sets up the schools for far more success in the coming years, even when the school population begins to increase again, which there are some signs of. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for example, some of the families that left New York City public schools during the pandemic have come back.
- [26:18]
A
Okay, interesting. I mean, I know you noted obviously earlier in this conversation these issues of people of, you know, all means leaving the city because of affordability concerns. I mean, there are some people who are wealthier who leave because of the high tax environment. And then there's people at the middle and, you know, working classes who leave because just the general cost of living is. Is so challenging, especially related to housing. And I know there's been work done on housing, as we discussed. There's some more efforts, you know, happening at. In the state budget negotiations around this. The mayor is obviously very focused on housing affordability and then, of course, childcare as well at both levels. So a lot of things happening that people hope will keep, you know, young family, families with young children in the city and also attract more, you know, people looking to start families, you know, to the city in the future. So on the.
- [27:10]
B
I am bullish on the city, Ben.
- [27:12]
A
Yeah, I would assume so, yes. So on the class size requirements you mentioned, you passed this law, you were the main legislative champion of it sponsor of it in 2022, requiring the city to reduce class sizes across the board over, you know, half a dozen years, incrementally. Mayor Mamdani, Schools Chancellor Samuels and others are saying the city needs more time to fully meet those requirements. You've been very open to that. So is it basically a given that in the state budget deal there will be a tweak to that law to allow the city for more time to meet those requirements? Where does that stand?
- [27:57]
B
Well, as you know, in 2022, we passed legislation that requires the reduction of overcrowded classes in New York City. We did so at a time when, as I noted before, school enrollment was on a decline. And we also, in that year, fully funded state foundation aid for New York City. We fully funded it statewide, but certainly for New York City as well. At that point, it became incumbent upon the city of New York to show that it was going to not have class sizes that were much larger than the rest of the state, which is why the law was applicable only to New York City, because there's only a problem in New York City, the overcrowded classes. Now, four years later, we're in 2026. We now, we now have a new mayoral administration. I lament the fact that the previous administration just did not do a whole lot to come into compliance with reducing class sizes. And so many of my colleagues are amenable to giving the Maidani administration in Education, headed by Chancellor Kamar Samuels, who's really hit the ground running, more time to really come into compliance, full compliance, and not have any more overcrowded classes in New York City. It's something we're working on. We're still awaiting a comprehensive plan from the chancellor and the mayor to achieve 100% compliance. And when they come up with a solid plan, which I think they will, then we can talk about amending the current law to give them the additional years to come into 100% compliance and.
- [29:52]
A
But not in the state budget.
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B
Well, whether that's part of the state budget or not, it's still a legislative change. Whether, you know, it's.
- [30:00]
A
It's going to have to happen in the budget, right?
- [30:03]
B
Yeah, it's. It could be in the budget. It could also be a separate bill. I'd like to see it sooner rather than later. So if they can get it done in time before we finish the budget, I think that's a good thing. If they are not able to get it done and get the plan finalized in time before we finish the budget, well, then, you know, we'll work on, given that assuming that it's a solid plan for complete compliance with class size reduction, then we can, we can go proceed with a separate bill after budget.
- [30:35]
A
In essence, is that basically them putting together a plan and presenting it to you for sign off and you go to your colleagues and you say they've shown me a plan, I'm on board here. And because you are such a champion of this law, people then just listen to you to give them the extra time. Like how does, how does it actually work?
- [30:53]
B
Well, as we know, there are no kings in this country and there are no kings in this state. I work very closely with my legislative colleagues in both houses as well as the teachers union, the principal's union. And you know, these are all important stakeholders. I hear lots from educational advocates and families and parents. And so, you know, we constantly have ongoing conversations with all the stakeholders. But you know, I would like to see a very solid plan from the chancellor and the mayor. And what does that plan have to include?
- [31:31]
A
It's like teacher hiring numbers.
- [31:34]
B
Teacher hiring as well as reducing the additional classrooms are needed because certainly you need more teachers, but you also need classrooms that they will teach in. And ultimately that has to be part of the school construction plan.
- [31:47]
A
Right. So it's building schools in some cases, it's adding facilities to existing schools.
- [31:54]
B
It's, there's no one size fits all. There's a few different approaches. One, one approach is building new schools. That's probably the, the amount, the approach that will take the longest and require the most amount of capital funding. But it certainly is going to be a requirement to get to 100% compliance. There are other places where the schools have space inside their buildings that can be used for classroom and there are modifications that are going to be required to achieve that. There are other schools that may not have any more space within their existing building, but they still have more space outside on school grounds where more classroom space can be constructed. So those are just three of several different strategies in how to comply with reducing overcrowded class sizes. Right.
- [32:48]
A
Then there's the combining of under enrolled schools. Could be part of it in some way that I mentioned earlier. One of the other aspects of this though that I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, has been a little bit of like a third rail of this conversation that I'm wondering your perspective on is part of the reason a lot of these schools are overcrowded is because parents like them and students like them and they want to send their kids to the schools that Seem to perform well, have their stuff together, et cetera. And so there is that build out of space that you got at so those schools could expand. But then another part of how this could all be solved is changing, you know, capping enrollment at certain schools, changing admissions policies in some places, and, you know, redrawing district lines possibly. Are those parts of what should be included in a plan?
- [33:44]
B
I don't see all of those items that you suggested as being part of the solution. I think, I think there needs to be an emphasis on preserving school infrastructure. Like, we don't, you know, if a school is built, don't take it away. If there's school space or classroom space, don't take it away. You may be able to find more optimal uses for that space, but don't let's not lose that infrastructure. And so that's part of what the chancellor and mayor are working on, this solid plan to get to so that we don't have overcrowded class sizes any longer in New York City.
- [34:23]
A
And you don't think this other piece of school enrollment caps and changes to admissions policies, you don't think there needs to be very much of that as part of how you get there of sort of like rethinking the distribution of students more broadly and in certain areas?
- [34:44]
B
Well, you know, let's take, let's take examples of, you know, and I have this in, in my area that I represent high schools that are like 200% overcrowded, right? So if, if the current number of students are 200% of what the building was designed for, either you gotta expand the building or maybe build another school nearby that has the same kind of programming. We're not losing excellence in any way. In fact, we're promoting excellence by not having overcrowded classes, which again, I'll remind you, I don't actually, I don't think you need reminding that. The problem is that the teachers don't have enough wherewithal to give the proper amount of attention to each and every student in that classroom. That's what we're looking about. When we say class sizes, we're talking about teacher student ratios. And when the teacher student ratio is too low, kids are not getting the best education possible.
- [35:50]
A
Yeah, listen, part of the reason I ask about some of this is because Chancellor Samuels, you know, he's still obviously early on the job. It's very hard for a new chancellor to come in in the middle of a school year, which is what happens, you know, new mayor in January names a new schools chancellor. It's the middle of the school year. So, you know, there's challenging there. He's been going on a five borough listening tour. You know, he's obviously doing a lot of due diligence to get up and running here, introducing himself, etc. But you know, they haven't put out a lot of education policy. I think they're listening and they're, they're putting that together was obviously not something Mayor Mamdani really ran on, was much by way of education policy, other than if you want to count child care. But one of the things Chancellor Samuels has said early on are that his three pillars are safety, academic rigor, and true integration. And when, you know, I hear true integration, that sounds like, you know, potentially some significant changes to enrollment policies and admissions policies like we saw somewhat happen under, you know, towards the end of the de Blasio years. But as you got at, obviously there's also the academic rigor part of that that many stakeholders don't want to lose, as you put it, excellence in education there. So how you combine those things is obviously a very challenging puzzle for any school system.
- [37:10]
B
I don't necessarily think it's a puzzle. I don't think excellence and the buzzword for what some of what you're describing is equity. I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I think they, they, they can and they should be aligned in the same direction.
- [37:32]
A
Well, and there's a lot of research
- [37:34]
B
excellence and equity at the same time. Right.
- [37:38]
A
And, and there's plenty of research that shows that, you know, integrated schools are good for everybody and, you know, all of that. But it's when you, when the school system, as you obviously well know, you know, announces different admissions policy changes, you know, very often that's met with a lot of uproar and there's a lot of challenges around, around some of that. So we'll see what, what plan they put forward and then we'll see what their education policy is to come. I don't want to keep you too much longer, so I want to then pivot to mayoral control of the school system. Is there go. So mayoral control of New York City schools, state laws is due to expire in June. The governor proposed a four year extension in her budget. Mayor Mamdani during his campaign had said he was opposed to mayoral control. He's changed his position and he wants the four year extension. You will have a key voice obviously in where that comes out in the wash. What are you thinking and is there going to be an extension of mayoral control? Of city schools in the state budget deal that comes together.
- [38:41]
B
Well, there are many varying perspectives on this system of school governance which has been in place now for 24 years. The current mayoral control system does expire in June, which is now a couple of months away. The governor proposed a four year extension with no changes based on my discussions with colleagues. That's not, that's not going to happen. There will be some changes and it may not be as long as four years, given that we have a new administration which legislators would still like to see some results from before they give such a long extension. So, you know, this is part of the budget discussions going on. That doesn't mean that it will be part of the budget once it's resolved. But no matter what, it will certainly be resolved by June 30th before. Because we're not going to let the law expire without taking certain action. Otherwise we go back to the pre 2002 system of 32 local school boards, which had its strengths but also had its weaknesses. And I don't think there's a thought that we would go back to that kind of system, which is what would happen if we don't take action by June 30th.
- [40:11]
A
Right. And there's virtually no one out there who, who, who wants, who's advocating for that. But when you say potentially some tweaks, what, what's top of the list there of how the system might be changed? I mean, you've made changes already in the past to how the Panel for Educational policy is structured. Is there any.
- [40:31]
B
Yeah, I mean some of the advocates are, are talking about or asking for changes to CEC membership requirements. PEP panel. I'm sorry, the Panel for Educational Policy composition. And also people would like to see a commission set up to study alternative systems to the current system of marital control. I think we have some of that, maybe a lot of that in the state education department report that was issued back in 2024. But there are still some ideas that a commission could explore that would then set us up for potential change, a significant change in the coming years.
- [41:20]
A
Where are you going to have a hearing? You know, I mean, obviously there's a chance that there's an extension in the budget. So then it's just extended. If it's not extended in the budget, do you plan to a specific hearing on it? I mean, there were a number of cycles where mayoral control was due to expire and the legislature brought the.
- [41:39]
B
We've had hearings, legislative hearings. The SCD State Education department also conducted. It's A very compre comprehensive set of hearings in all five boroughs just two years ago. So I'm not certain that hearings, public hearings will be held once again this year. But my door is open and so are my colleagues. Doors open to advocates, parents and family members as well as teachers, all stakeholders who want to weigh in on the issue of marital control and school governance.
- [42:16]
A
So most likely as we sit here, there's like a two year extension in the state budget and then it's sort of, let's see how the Mamdani administration does. Would you agree that's the most likely outcome here?
- [42:27]
B
Most likely outcome is that there will be less than a four year extension and with some changes.
- [42:34]
A
Okay. All right. Lastly,
- [42:40]
B
there's lastly. I thought that was lastly.
- [42:43]
A
No, lastly, this is lastly. As part of that, there's a lot of discussion, as you well know, about returning to the city Department of Education budget. Right. There's questions about how that budget's been managed, some of the increases in expenses at DOE Central, which is something the last administration said they were going to take on and then seemingly didn't do anything about. There is a lot of discussion about these ballooning special education case costs where the city is paying going to be well over a billion dollars a year for special education outside of the school system because the school system apparently can't educate those students appropriately. So are you looking at any of that in your sort of oversight capacity? There's this weird system here where like the city Council does that budget oversight, but the city Council doesn't actually have the education power that you have at the state, as we've been talking about here with mayoral control. So there's this sort of strange division of responsibility. But are you at the state at all looking at that city budget picture, especially related to some of those, you know, really accelerating costs that have been happening in the, in the Department of Education and the school system.
- [44:04]
B
I would say that our job in the legislature and in state government is providing resources for local school districts, of which New York City is one, is in fact the largest. The City Council does vigorously oversee the Department of Education. The chancellor and deputy chancellors testify with regular frequency at the City Council hearings. We have a new chair now, Eric Dinowitz, who really has an immense knowledge of how the school system is running. And he takes over the very capable hands of the former chair, Rita Joseph. They conduct the oversight, they have budget hearings. They had a robust budget hearing in March. They had a hearing on mayoral control itself. And they will have yet another budget hearing on the Department of education as it relates to the mayor's executive budget, which is going to be released by May 1. So the city Council is very vigorous in their conducting their oversight over the New York City public schools, is what they want to be called. And. And that's where the budget accountability would. Would come in the state. State legislature. I think most of us try to get more resources to the city and to other school districts, given that education really is the number one responsibility of state government. And to the extent that there are problems, the state education department comes in. They regularly audit and review what local school districts are doing with their foundation aid and other state funding. And so that's kind of where the responsibilities lie. If ever there became a big problem, then we certainly would hold legislative hearings with regard to how school districts, including New York City, are spending their state education dollars.
- [46:08]
A
Right. And some of this could also come up at. And did come up at your state, you know, education budget hearing, where the chancellor testifies and the mayor obviously comes up for his own testimony, where legislators ask him about all sorts of things. And if you did have another mayoral control hearing, at some point, it could think these things could come up there. Okay. So we don't know what's happening with mayoral control, but at some point before June 30, there will be an extension, potentially with some tweaks, and it won't be four years. That's. That's. That's. That's our takeaways here, Correct?
- [46:43]
B
You got it right on the mark, Ben.
- [46:46]
A
All right, we see. We will. We will check in with you down the line. I'll be very interested to. Once we get into, you know, where that all lands to chat with you.
- [46:55]
B
You can have me back on July, early July.
- [46:58]
A
Fantastic. I look. I look forward to that. Although something tells me there'll be a mayoral control extension before. Before June 30th.
- [47:08]
B
Well, that's why, I mean, by early July.
- [47:10]
A
Well, below.
- [47:10]
B
Yeah.
- [47:11]
A
I'm saying in this. I'm saying in the budget, but maybe not. You know, what was it two years ago? The governor really insisted on just getting two more years for Eric Adams done.
- [47:19]
B
And.
- [47:20]
A
And sort of made that a priority. I don't know that she's leaning on
- [47:23]
B
you and the years before that. She didn't.
- [47:26]
A
Yeah.
- [47:26]
B
So, you know, again, there are lots of issues in the air. You highlighted many of them.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah.
- [47:31]
B
And we'll get through this in the next week or so.
- [47:34]
A
All right, very good. Keep me posted when you see that plan from. From the city.
- [47:40]
B
Certainly will.
- [47:41]
A
In your. In your response to that. Senator John Lew thanks for all the time and thoughts. Really appreciate it and stay in touch.
- [47:47]
B
Take care, Ben. Be well, Sam.