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The Knicks and The City, with Chris Herring & Jonathan Fishner
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Chris Herring and Jonathan Fishner joined the sho…
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Foreign.
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Hello and welcome to Max Politics and Sports. This is Ben Max coming to you from New York Law School and its center for New York City and State Law. Thanks for tuning in. Speaking here on Tuesday, June 2, 2026, the day before the first game of the 2026 NBA Finals in which the New York Knicks and the San Antonio spurs will play a best of seven series for the championship. And today on the show, a conversation about this Knicks championship run and a bit of a Finals preview, but also a conversation about the Knicks and the city New York as a basketball town and other interesting broader dynamics around this team and its franchise and this city. Like how this current Knicks team isn't reminiscent of the last time the Knicks were really good and in the Finals back in the 1990s. And we'll get into much more. A really good conversation ahead today. I'll be joined by in a moment by two great guests. Chris Herring is an NBA reporter who's written for espn, Sports Illustrated, the Wall Street Journal and other outlets. He's the author of Blood in the Garden, the flagrant history of the 1990s Knicks, a best selling book published in 2022. And also with me shortly is Jonathan Fisher, a lifelong New Yorker and Knicks fan and a former Knicks blogger with a lot of good insights about the Knicks, New York sports and the city. I've resisted getting into anything sports related here on the podcast, which is usually focused, of course, on New York politics, policy and government for a couple reasons. One, there's a lot of sports content out there elsewhere and two, I thought if I started talking sports here on the show, I might not be able to stop. So watch out for more sports content in the near future, especially as the Knicks make this Finals run. But it's also fun and interesting to talk about sports and society, how a mayor relates to sports in their city, and other crossover dynamics between sort of politics and the city and sports. I grew up in queens in the 1980s, not far from Shea Stadium, and have been a big Mets fan from the time I learned what baseball is. I think some of my earliest life memories are around the Mets winning the 1986 World Series, which is their last championship, a drought that's only slightly less tragic than that of the Knicks, who haven't won an NBA championship since 1973. Yes, 1973. That's 52 years and counting for the the Knicks, so they're hoping to break that streak this year. And it's 40 years for the Mets, who don't have a lot of prospects for winning the World Series this year, but you never know. When I was a kid I thought the Mets were going to be great forever. Then they weren't for most of the rest of the last 40 years or so, though there have been some fun runs to the playoffs and even to the World Series a couple times, where the Mets lost in 2000 to the Yankees and in 2015 to the Royals. Likewise for the Knicks, who were great in the early 70s and then got really good again in the early 90s when they were coached by hall of Famer Pat Riley and led by hall of Famer Patrick Ewing. They've had a couple good runs but have mostly been struggling quite deeply for the more than two decades since Ewing departed the team. The Knicks had that great team in the 90s, though they often lost to the Michael Jordan led Bulls in the Eastern Conference playoffs, only making it to the finals in 94 after Jordan retired from basketball for the first time. And there have been a couple other glimpses. High level Knicks basketball, the surprising finals appearance in 99 after Jordan again had left the Bulls after winning three three more championships. And they had a good squad with Carmelo Anthony leading the way more than a decade ago now, but never reaching the finals since 1999 until this year, led by point guard Jalen Brunson with a deep and gritty squad that is somewhat reminiscent of the 1990s Knicks. And we'll talk about all that today. It's interesting to think about how the Knicks fortunes have somewhat mapped the cities with those negative depths of the 80s and a resurgence in the 90s. And they made the finals in 94, which was the first year of Rudy Giuliani's mayoralty. And now the Knicks of the last several years have kind of mapped onto the post Covid recovery of the city with a resurgence led by Brunson. And here they are in the Finals in the first year of Mayor Zoram Hamdani's tenure. And there's a lot of energy in the city for its basketball team and for its politics and some of the generational change in city politics that we've seen with Mamdani's rise and win. Though not everyone's a fan of the Knicks and not everyone's a fan of any particular mayor. Of course, as the Knicks have made this run a year after they lost a very tough Eastern Conference finals to the Pacers. They then fired their head coach Tom Thibodeau and replaced him with Mike Brown. The city has been bursting with excitement this year for a real title contender in the ultimate city sport of basketball. I grew up playing at my local parks in Queens, where all day long on Saturdays and Sundays when the weather was at least decent, there were pickup games with players of all ages. And a lot of times that was also true on weekday afternoons into the evenings. I wound up playing a lot of organized basketball through the years, did a bunch of coaching after college, and now I get to coach my son's youth league teams, all while watching a good bit of NBA basketball. And I'm excited about this Knicks team and this Knicks run to the Finals. And about this conversation on today's show, Chris Herring and Jonathan Fisher with me momentarily, very briefly, if you missed any recent episodes of the show, they've all been about New York politics and policy, but some great conversations, including on Mayor Mamdani's new housing plan to build or preserve 400,000 units of affordable, affordable housing over a decade. I was joined by two very sharp housing experts to break it down. Also in the feed, my recent one on one conversations with Congressman Dan Goldman of New York's 10th congressional district and his Democratic primary challenger Brad Lander. From a live audience forum we hosted New York Law School co sponsored by a couple of abundance focused groups. That's one of the marquee primaries coming to a head with voting this month here in June. Primary day is the 23rd and early voting starts June 13th. And there'll be a lot more here on Max Politics about the elections very soon. I also had a good recent conversation with City Council members turned state legislators Eric Botcher and Keith Powers. Really good chat about their adjustment to Albany and state government and the state budget negotiations they joined earlier this year. And I talked to two fellow journalists about Mayor Mamdani's executive budget plan. Another good policy breakdown there. Those and plenty of others in the feed for you to check out if you missed any after you listen to this one. All right. As we count down to tip off of Game 1 of the 2026 NBA Finals between the New York Knicks and the San Antonio spurs on Wednesday, June 3rd in San Antonio. And New York City is bursting with enthusiasm and posing crowd control challenges for Mayor Mamdani and the nypd. I'm very pleased to welcome to Max Politics Chris Herring and Jonathan Fisher. Jonathan Fisher is a lifelong New Yorker and Knicks fan and a former Knicks blogger who knows hoops in the Knicks and he knows Knicks in the city. And Chris Herring is an NBA reporter who's written for espn, Sports Illustrated, the Wall Street Journal and other outlets. He's the Author of the best selling Blood in the Garden. The flagrant history of the 1990s New York Knicks, which was released in 2022 and chronicles the last truly great New York Knicks teams, including the 1994 squad led by coach Pat Riley and center Patrick Ewing that made it to the NBA Finals and was the Knicks last real shot until this year at an NBA championship. The Knicks had a three games to two lead in that finals against the Houston Rockets before another crushing postseason defeat for those beloved villainous New York knicks of the 90s. The Knicks unexpectedly made a finals run in 1999, a team coached by Jeff Van Gundy, but weren't really seen as having much of a chance in that series, in part because they lost Patrick Ewing to injury and they were defeated easily in five games by the San Antonio spurs, the same franchise they play here in 2026, of course, but starting with that 1999 Finals, the two franchises paths diverged significantly as the Knicks essentially entered a two decade or so era of misery with a couple of bright spots. While the spurs had a dynasty of sorts winning five NBA titles from 99 through 90, 2014. So the spurs are here looking to end a roughly decade long championship drought while the Knicks are trying to break a 50 plus year streak since their last NBA title. And here we are. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me. John, how are you?
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I'm great, thank you, thanks for having me.
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Chris, how you doing?
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I'm doing really well, Ben, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
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Thanks for taking the time. And I'll add after the great success of Blood in the Garden, which we'll discuss here, you're working on another basketball book which maybe you want to preview a little bit. And you are a senior lecturer at Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism. So thanks for taking the time here. So let's start with a little bit blending of my worlds here on sports and politics, a little bit of hot take territory. Chris, when you think about a mayor of New York City going to a Knicks home game at Madison Square Garden, where should the mayor sit? Should the mayor be like on celebrity row and a front row character? Should the mayor blend in, quote unquote cheap seats up top like we saw Mayor Mamdani do in the Eastern Conference Finals, what's your take on where the mayor should be at a Knicks home playoff game?
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I mean, I'll, I'll say this, there's no better visibility certainly in this city than doing something as it relates to the Knicks and being part of the crowd. Now you would be most visible sitting front row. But that there's an aspect of that that doesn't seem to really fit. Mamdani style would kind of go against what he's portrayed himself to be and just kind of his backstory, I think, a little bit. If he were to do that, I think sitting in the second, third deck of the arena, especially with what the tickets are going for right now, with how long it's been since they've made a trip, that would probably be more in keeping with what he's shown to be in kind of the ways kind of promoted himself. So that's what I would expect it. You know, I've seen. I remember the years where I covered the team and Mayor Bloomberg would sit in the front row. That makes sense. Mayor Bloomberg is a billionaire. Is a billionaire. So, you know, it's not to say you have to be a billionaire to sit in the front. I'm sure the Knicks might help accommodate it. Actually be an interesting question, but I can't imagine him sitting in the front row. I'd be a little bit surprised if he did that.
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There's also the possibility here we've heard that President Trump might come to a finals game in msg. I would imagine he would sit in a suite for, you know, protection reasons. So there'll be some interesting dynamics. There's also this question of whether. Whether the mayor would have to pay for his ticket. If he does anything ceremonial at the game, then he can get comped. You know, there's a lot of rules at play. So, John, what's your take? What. Where do you want to see the mayor at a Knicks game?
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If he's there, he needs to be in the top. But my advice to him, and I think people are. I've had this conversation. I think people are talking about this. My advice to him would be to be as many places as he can over the next, you know, across these seven games. Every borough watch parties, you know, you name it. A bar in Staten Island, a bar in the Bronx, a bar right outside Madison Square Garden. I think this is a real opportunity. And he seems to. That he seems to enjoy. You saw that with Arsenal last week. But if I was him, I'd be out. All. All I'm thinking. I don't know why I think of this as a series that's going to go seven games. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I think he's got seven opportunities to really be out and about and, and, and he should take them.
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I was actually thinking about whether he should try to fly to San Antonio for game one. But, but you're probably right. It makes a lot more sense for him to be in the city and go to a watch party and make an appearance or, you know, enjoy it with the, with the rest of New Yorkers who. There, there will be some fly. Flying to San Antonio for the games. But maybe he should. He should. He. He also seems like he's not one who wants to leave the city very much and face those headlines and so forth.
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No.
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Yeah.
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Chris, I wanted to ask you, you know, in, in your book, unless I missed it, I don't think Rudy Giuliani is really a character in there. Was he sort of present? You know, he was the mayor when the Knicks were in those two finals in the 90s. Was he present as you were doing this reporting? I know you were so focused on so much of the X's and O's and how the games went and, you know, inside that that team. But was, was Mayor Giuliani a factor in your reporting? And even Dinkins, you know, Dinkins was mayor when the Knicks were starting to get good again.
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I don't remember much about Giuliani at all. And it's funny you mentioned that because, you know, I looked for opportunity, small opportunities. Now, I'm not going to make it seem like I was trying to make this all the President's man or something that was deeply political, but I did have something in there, just briefly, about Richard Nixon making an appearance at a game and got this glorious story that I remember thinking, oh my gosh, it's going to elevate the hell out of my book about the idea that Richard Nixon was at a Knicks game. Had been wanting to go to one because he had a grandson that was a fan. And at that point, you know, Nixon was in New York and went to a game. The Knicks were in the midst of like a 20, 25 game home winning streak. And Nixon goes, they lose the game is the way I've been told the story. And he wants to, the team has asked him beforehand, will you come into the locker room, take pictures with our players? Which I even that I find kind of interesting, to be honest with you. So then he does all that and Patrick Ewing takes it upon himself to apologize for losing because they normally play better at home. And Richard Nixon pats him on the shoulder and says, that's okay, Patrick. You know, sometimes you've got to do you know what, you don't necessarily want to. If you can't beat them, cheat. Oh, boy. And I was like, literally the second I got off the phone with someone that told me that I'm sitting there looking for anything and everything I can find to try to, you know, validate that, that story. And within 10 minutes I debunked it because the Knicks actually won the game that he was at by like 20 points. But anyway, neither here nor there. That does not answer your question about Rudy Giuliani. But no, I don't remember a whole lot about him. For whatever reason, I didn't really get into much as it related to the mayors and everything. But I know it was an incredibly hot ticket back then. To the extent that the Knicks actually kind of mistakenly at one point they didn't turn down JFK Jr. But they were very close to doing that for season ticket request or a ticket request. They ended up putting him in the third deck by accident, not realizing that, oh, this is actually JFK Jr they thought it was just somebody else with the name. And they, he didn't put it on like an official letterhead or anything like that. So they didn't realize it was like a request coming from him. So it's one of those things where like, yeah, they obviously could make exceptions for really high ranking people, but I don't think that I could be totally wrong. But I don't think Giuliani was like a persistent presence. I don't know that any of the mayors were during that time. I could be totally wrong.
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What do you do, John? Any of the sort of. Julian, I don't remember.
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No, I thought, I've been thinking about this and I don't remember Giuliani at any of these games. Of course I remember Giuliani sort of behind the on deck circle at Yankee Stadium by the Yankees. I don't think that was, I mean, I think he was a big Yankees fan, but I also don't think, you know, being associated with that greatness that sort of escalated as the Yankees greatness escalated and as his time in office went on. Yeah, but no, I, I don't, I
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think he was around some for these Knicks, you know, but I don't think he was a central character is my, is my sense. And I, I didn't do a lot of looking myself, but you know, I think he was at some of these, some of these games. But, but again, I don't think, I don't think it was kind of central to his identity like the Knicks fandom was. Yeah, it is interesting. From Hamdani as you got at, John, like he is a big soccer fan. Clearly. But I think basketball seemingly is his second, you know, that he's into, and he seems to have, like, real interest, and obviously he's also riding the wave here, as he should as mayor. But I do think he's, you know, a little bit of a basketball guy. Nowhere near his. His soccer fandom there.
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A sense I'm getting just sort of from the. The vibe, so to speak, among Knicks fans is that people are welcome. I think Knicks fans are just so happy. Like, this is not, at least for me and. But I think for others, too. Like, this just feels like such a party, like such a positive thing, that I'm not getting the sense that it's like, oh, you weren't here for the dog days. You can't be here now. I think it's a. It's a big open tent, and if the mayor, even if the Knicks are only his second favorite team, I think he should feel free to lean in and. And have some fun.
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Chris, when you've been reporting on the Knicks and reporting on. On basketball more generally, you know, there is something special about New York City because it is such a basketball city. Did that come up in your reporting on the book or other ways? Obviously, you've covered basketball, you know, at the Wall Street Journal with a focus on New York and beyond. But, you know, a lot of NBA players, of course, come out of the city, including one of the spurs, current starters, Julian Champagne. We, you know, had stars who came out of New York City and then played for the Knicks, like Stephon Marbury. The list goes on. How do you think about sort of New York as a basketball city and the Knicks? You know, when the Knicks are good, it's pretty great. They've had a lot of struggles. But how do you sort of think about New York as a basketball city and this Knicks run?
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Yeah, I mean, it is strange, and I can't think of many places where there's, like, a greater dissonance between how revered the sport is, but also, like, how poor the team's history is. At least recent history is with regards to, like, their dominance in that sport. And there's been no dominance to speak of, obviously, since the 70s years. But at its core, I still think of New York fundamentally as a basketball city. I think a lot of it has to do with. It's maybe because of the lack of green space here. You could have blacktop courts and stuff like that, and just so many outdoor courts that people are out there, especially this time of year. I can't tell you the number of Outdoor tournaments and stuff that people asked me to come cover, that I've gone to and stopped by Westport and Dyckman and all over the city that are just really, really cool and kind of give you a different feel and a different fabric of the city with each one, that any number of professional players have made a point to stop and play. You know, certainly when there were stoppages and labor stoppages and stuff like that, whether it's Kevin Durant or whether it's Kobe Bryant or. You name it, it's been really cool to kind of have those moments here. Anthony Mason played on those same courts before he was a Knick. And so I think that that's part of it, too. It's the high school rivalries that have existed for years. So it's. I think there is a lot to that, that it clearly is a basketball city. And I think, let's be honest here, until the Nets were in the city, and even now with them being in the city, I can recall them having the. When the Nets got James Harden, having to discount their playoff tickets in order to sell them out, which just is not a thing, obviously, with the Knicks. The Knicks have sold out for years, despite how bad they've been during the regular season. It's just one of the few instances where you kind of had a team that really didn't have competition for a second team in the same market. You know, I guess if you want to call the Nets a team in the same market, you could before they were here in New York, but it didn't really feel that way. It still kind of doesn't feel that way. And so I think that that's part of it. Feeling like a basketball city, too, is just that it grabs people's imaginations. And I don't know, obviously, the 90s,
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the New Jersey Nets were in the finals more recently than the New York Knicks.
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Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean. And have been closer to getting there, too, as of late. You know that at least for a time or two before this. This latest iteration with Jalen Brunson.
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Yeah, yeah. I would add on Chris to a lot of what Chris said. You know, I think when you think about basketball in New York City, I think sort of the. The quintessential book, I think one of the great books about the Knicks definitely in the canon with Chris's book is the City Game, which sort of famously alternates between the 70. You know, one chapter about the 70s Knicks and one chapter about, you know, like, the classic first generation of streetball players. In the city. And that was a time when both were great. It's been so long since the Knicks were great. I think this is a return in some ways to New York as the basketball capital. New York has lost a lot at the high school level in the last few decades, but you do have. You have two players from New York in this series, including Alvarado, and not just two players from New York, but two CHS AA guys, guys who stayed home and played basketball. They didn't go and play a prep school. You got four guys from the Tri State area with, you know, when you include Towns and Harper. So there's a lot of New York in this series, which is exciting.
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And. Yeah, I should have mentioned Alvarado.
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Sorry, you got to mention Alvarado. You can't leave him out. Right, of course. Yeah. But, but, but I think that, you know, part of this is the, this is the, the sport where there isn't really a. There really aren't divided loyalties. I don't think the Nets. I think the Nets have grabbed people in some ways, but more as a place to go than a team to follow. And yeah, the Knicks have always been something that unites New Yorkers. And I think basketball, basketball crosses all the lines. It crosses racial lines, it cross crosses financial lines. It goes every which way. And that's, for me, always been one of the things that's special about playing basketball and watching basketball and being part of the basketball community.
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It's so interesting because as I was thinking about, you know, these crossovers between politics, which is what, you know, I always cover, and basketball and the mayors and the Knicks and the city, you know, it's very hard because there is such diversity to it all as there is in New York City for everything. And the, and the New York, you know, the Knicks fan base is incredibly diverse and, and, you know, people who play basketball in New York City is incredibly diverse and it's, it's just so interesting. But, you know, I was thinking about some of these ways in which is the energy behind the Knicks enhanced by the fact that there's a new mayor who had so much, you know, youthful energy behind his campaign, and he's sort of really embracing the city, which again, we saw from Eric Adams when he started to be mayor, but then that all fell apart. But like, you know, the energy behind a new mayor and someone who's really like, wants to be into the city in a, you know, in a cheerleader way, which is always great for a mayor to be. And, you know, we didn't really have that from de Blasio. So it's been a while and you know, Bloomberg as such an elite, you know, there was a barrier there. So you know, but, but like there's, you know, there's, there's so much of like the Knicks fan base who probably were at Mamdani voters. You know, it's a very, it's a very tricky thing. But I do think there is, you know, an extra level of excitement right now in the city because you do have, at least for many people, like a new era of political leadership and sort of symbolic city leadership and of course, you know, youthful interest in sports. Like, you know, even among, you know, guys like us who still watch and follow sports and you know, Chris's case report on sports, you know, it's still like things change the older you get and you might still be a sports fan but like you, you know, you have other priorities than when you're younger perhaps. Chris, what's at the root of this next drought? Capture. Capture your view and you have, you know, a little bit of this in your book. But what's, what's like, what do you boil it down to about why the Knicks have been in such a rough place for so long?
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I think there's a couple things. I mean, I think the most honest thing and you know, obvious thing for a lot of people to point to, which also is going to be interesting to look at over the next week, two weeks, particularly if the Knicks win is. I mean the ownership shifted at the very end of that period that I was reporting on the book. Jim Dolan took over funny enough. He really took over fully in like 98 or 99 that lockout year. That was the last time the Knicks made the finals. They were an eight seed. They had the either the highest or second highest payroll in the league during that year. But it was a really weird 50 game season and everybody on the roster was hurt. So they scrapped just to make the playoffs. Jeff Van Gundy and Ernie Grunfeld were feuding because of Ben Gundy's kind of reluctance to use Marcus Camby, who Ernie Grunfeld had traded and felt was his difference making big man. Jeff. Ben Gundy had extreme loyalty to Charles Oakley. All of that said Dolan was tired of them feuding and he essentially made a decision like we've got to fire one of these guys. They can't keep feuding in the papers. It's bad for business. And he really didn't leave. Dave, check. It's the president. A decision in Terms of whether or not someone would be fired, it was just, you're going to fire one of them. And then eventually he said, actually, I'm going to make the decision. You're going to fire Grunfeld. They then run off like 8 out of their next 10 to get into the playoffs at the very last moment. And the way I, and I think a lot of people thought about that, certainly I reported it this way from the people I spoke to, wondered if that, like, emboldened Jim Dolan, because then they went on this Finals run as an eight seed. And the idea that, you know, he maybe was too heavy handed, he was too heavy handed in terms of decision making when it came to Carmelo Anthony trade, when it came to maybe getting involved in Andrea Barnyard trade things along those lines. From that standpoint, that was the leadership that was in place. And that he kind of felt like if and when the team was closer, even when they weren't, he could meddle or get involved in decisions that he should be leaving to the people underneath him. So I think that that is a clear thing. The other thing that I would put in there with that is that the superstardom, you could make the argument, okay, they got Amar' E Stoudemire at the back end of his career, sneeze were shot. Carmella Anthony was a bona fide star superstar, if you want to call him that. But what I would say is that they gave up so much to get him, in part because of what Dolan was willing to give up to get him. They have had a superstar. But in this league, particularly right now, and I know John would agree with this, you have to get guys on the right terms. You can't pay them endlessly. We watched what happened at the end of Kobe Bryant's career, paying him more than really what he should have been making at that point in his career. It's what the Lakers are kind of faced with now. You have to get guys on the right terms. And so getting Jalen Brunson was a game changer. He was a guy that, at least in the media, people were split on whether they were potentially paying him too much at four years and 104 million a year or 104 million total. Now, maybe, you know, the best bargain and one of the best bargains we've ever seen in league history, quite frankly. Clearly a superstar, clearly the impetus behind this revival, along with Leon Rose, Tom Thibodeau being part of that as well. But they have a superstar now. And when you have a superstar in the NBA, you can sniff this sort of realm that they're in right now. And when you have a superstar that's on a good contract, it actually makes you one of the favorites to win the whole thing. And so I think that's the biggest thing I've had people ask me for years, is Dolan an impediment to the Knicks winning big? And I've always said if they had a superstar, I'm not sure it would matter. Like a real true superstar. And I think that's what we're watching now is a magnetic superstar who he's not scaring guys away because he's such a ball dominant player or that he's such a guy that needs all the attention. If anything, he's got college teammates of his that he plays with, that want to play with him, his dad is an assistant on the team and all these other things. There's a magnetic presence that he has that I think that those are the two big differences. Dolan's willingness to step back because he actually trusts who's in place and someone that's making the right calls. But also they got Jalen Brunson and I think that was just such a game changer and the sort of star that they've been missing since Patrick Ewing, who's just a quiet, I'm going to get this done, I'm going to find a way sort of leadership.
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B
John, I want your take on the drought, but let me just add two things to what Chris said. One is Brunson then goes on to take a pay cut in signing an extension, which is incredible just to add to your point about the terms. But then I think we also have to mention that the Knicks now have two all NBA caliber players. Right. Like you have Karl Anthony Towns with Brunson is different basically than anything. You know, the Patrick Ewing didn't really have that. Right. Like John Starks was maybe an all star once or twice. Yeah. You know, so like we see in the NBA that most of the time you need two guys at that really highest level to be a championship team. And you know, Carmelo as you got at, had Amari Stoudemire, but he wasn't quite, you know, really at that level anymore. John, talk about this drought and your, your view on it. The only other thing I'd say on it is like the drafting has been so.
- [29:41]
C
Yeah, well, what I would say I agree with, with what Chris said. I think for a long time there was an idea that like quote unquote, you can't rebuild in New York, I always disagreed with that. They never committed to a rebuild, or they rarely committed to a rebuild. You know, they sort of just tried to turn. Roll their assets over from one thing to another. I think that's sort of passed. Although to some degree, you know, they've bottomed out. You know, going after LeBron wasn't a rebuild, but they did tear everything down. But I think that cost them a lot of time. I think that it's pretty clear with this group that they've thought a lot about how the guys fit together and what the guys are like. I don't think. I think that I heard a long time ago. I heard Jeff Van Gundy years ago. It could be 10 years ago now or more. Talk about how much easier it is to coach when your best player is your best person. And I think the Knicks. I think the Knicks have a lot of good guys on the team, but I think they're in that position. I think people underestimate. And he was talking specifically about Patrick Ewing, Jeff Van Gundy, and I think New York really underestimated the burden that Patrick Ewing shouldered as the face of the franchise. How hard it was. This team is united behind the Knicks and Jalen Brunson. I mean, I was pretty young then, but Patrick Ewing was a controversial guy that took a lot of shit. Excuse me for a lot of things. Some fair, but. But many. Much of it unfair. And I think that they didn't think enough about the fit of the people with the city, the. How hard it is here and whether some of these guys they brought in. And I don't think I would put Carmelo Anthony in the category of guys who couldn't get it done in New York, But. But they definitely made that mistake other times. And this group can handle it. They can hand. They can handle it when their backs are against the wall. They can handle. They can handle it when they're struggling. They can handle it when they're losing and looks like they can handle it when they're winning. So I think that's been a very big change, too.
- [31:38]
B
I just want to say again, the drafting.
- [31:40]
A
Yes, Abysmal.
- [31:43]
C
Abysmal.
- [31:44]
B
I was looking back at the draft picks year by year. Oh, my God.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah.
- [31:48]
C
But, Ben, I do think it's important to. And I say this all the time. You know, people talk about the Knicks missing on Steph Curry. I'm not convinced the Knicks could. I'm not. I don't think Steph Curry is Steph Curry. You know, the way the Knicks were then. Some of these Guys. Maybe they were drafting the right guys. I mean, I'll tell you, I know it sounds silly. No one's. People think I'm crazy. I'm sure there were moments where Kristaps Porzingis showed flashes of like this guy. Do you remember him running end to end, blocking shots, dunking the basketball?
- [32:14]
B
Absolutely.
- [32:14]
A
Shooting threes?
- [32:15]
C
I don't want to compare him to Victor Wembanyama, but that was the thinking of him being a unicorn. And the Knicks couldn't, couldn't crack it. They couldn't figure it out.
- [32:24]
B
Well, and then he also had injuries and of course, you know, he would go on to be injured on and off, you know, through today. But I don't even put that one in the, in that bad of a category like that. No, was, was. Yeah, that was worth it. On this media angle, Chris, what's your observations on that? Because I feel like, as John saying, some of this, you know, and I grew up, you know, listening to WFAN every day and all of this, it's like it. I just don't think it's the same anymore. And I think there's a lot more room for error for. I mean, it's like it relates to the politicians too. Right? It's like the scrutiny that comes with being in New York as a politician or a sports star. I just don't think it's quite the same as it used to be. I don't know what's your. What I haven't, I haven't thought too much about it on the sports side, but on the politician side, you know, we know the local press corps is, you know, is not what it was. And the Daily News especially is emblematic of that. But what's your, what's your thoughts on that? And, you know, we had, I mean, we did have a nick situation this year where like, partway through the year it was like, oh, man, do they need to get rid of towns. Is Mike Brown going to be, you know, one and done here? So, you know, there was some of that bubbling up, but maybe there's more time now to fight through that stuff.
- [33:39]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting and I mean, I guess I could speak to some of this specifically. I mean, what is a little odd about this moment currently is that I think, you know, obviously the Knicks at times have had a really acrimonious relationship with the media. It's been kind of well chronicled since the early 2000s and Isaiah Thomas era. But I think what they're finding for the first time In a while. Is that now when you've made the playoffs five out of the last six years? I think it is now. And you're getting to this stage of the playoffs and you've got a bona fide star and guys that speak to the media and guys to some extent that have local ties to the area. There's not as much to criticize. And I mean, like, even for the tabloids, I have friends that cover the team for the tabloids, and they're like, look, when the team sucks, of course we're gonna trash things, but when they're playing well, like, we're gonna be on the bandwagon the same way everybody else, maybe not them individually, but the papers and the language they use and stuff like that. So, no, the scrutiny has not really been there to the extent that it has been. I think it was more about Tom Thibodeau and the different things that needed to be done. It was more about. Was five picks too many to give up for Mikhail Bridges. And the truth is, you. You could have those conversations. Maybe Thibodeau and moving on from him was the right call because you needed the team to peak at this point in the season, not to just kind of get there to this point in the season and then kind of, kind of just pit her out. And with the Bridges thing, you know, the idea of keeping the continuity that they had, they're kind of answering these questions now. And the irony about some of that as well is that the team really has not been as open as certainly a lot of the reporters would like it to be. They have not done traditional press conferences, end of season press conferences with Leon Rose. Leon Rose has to this point still never done a press conference with the Knicks contingent. Media contingent that wasn't like in house media to this point. Jalen Brunson, when he's introduced, was not introduced to the broader media contingent. It was just to, again, to season ticket holders and the team facing media. So I. I'm not saying anything larger about that, but my point is there's not scrutiny over that from the fans. And even at this point, the media is not going to complain about it because the team is winning. And I think that that really winning solves so many things for so many people in the city, Especially when you're talking about five decades worth of. Of not winning. You know, it's really meaningful in a way that I think it forgives a lot of things.
- [36:11]
B
John, is the debate over the Bridges trade over now that they made it to the finals?
- [36:16]
C
Great question.
- [36:16]
B
Or is it only over if they win?
- [36:18]
C
It's a great question. I will tell you that after was that game three in Atlanta I had lost. I didn't think he could be back. I think I.
- [36:29]
B
Right.
- [36:29]
C
I mean that was only a few weeks ago. The Knicks were amazing precipice almost right. And yes, the answer is I think that people won't. People will. I think that sport New York sports fans, Knicks fans will happily trade the five picks for Bridges and what's been
- [36:47]
B
been going on and making it to the Finals.
- [36:49]
C
I think so. Yeah, I do.
- [36:51]
B
And same on the Towns trade. The debate's over.
- [36:53]
C
I. Yes, that one. I think honestly I thought that people revisiting that one. It was Julius Randall too much about Julius Randall but that was only. It was only a matter of time before people were going to see the full playoff. Julius Randle experience, I give him a lot of credit. He was a positive. He had a positive impact on the Knicks at a time where they really needed a boost. But. But that one I always felt was unfair. I thought that was a like a clear one. And Towns has been great. But I think Bridges has sort of put those doubts to rest. At least he has for me. And, and Mike Brown is. I mean the Knicks have looked so phenomenally prepared these last few weeks. I hope it continues. They've had the time but they looked ready for every variation that was going to. They look. They look to step ahead. He's looked a step ahead at every series. And so I think the Knicks have had to continue to be on a great run from an off season perspective.
- [37:49]
B
Yeah. And the flip side of all this, you know, maybe Rust that they're going to have after this long layoff is the extra preparation time. And you know, if they're not super prepared with lots of options here for this series against the spurs, you know, I don't know how. How they would be otherwise. Chris, any other thoughts on whether these trade debates are over now that they made the finals or do they have to win win the championship to put those to bed? And I also let me just say I feel so bad even before he tore his Achilles. I feel so bad for Dante DiVincenzo.
- [38:20]
A
Exactly.
- [38:21]
B
To just like the Nova Knicks and then all of a sudden he's shipped out and like sp. That's the business side of sports and that's it. And you know the Knicks made a deal but I feel bad for that guy, man.
- [38:31]
A
That was exactly where I was going. So to know it's okay. I mean to the extent That I was going to talk about the Randle Cat trade. My concern for the Knicks at that point was actually more about are they. Are they giving up? Obviously it's not giving up to get an all NBA player, but to not have divincenzo at a time where you had just seen how valuable the guy had been, you know, that, that Philly series, my goodness, like just incredibly valuable. A guy that really one season that he spent in Golden State and working with Steph Curry, kind of becoming a guy that almost hit the second most threes in the league in a season where he wasn't even a starter the whole year and really arguably should have been, you know, most improved. But I think there's something weird with the games play and the way they changed the rule and. And what. What have you, neither here nor there. I was worried that maybe they were giving up on him too soon and that they wouldn't necessarily miss Julius in every way, but that Dante was the kind of player that, like, you need one of him on your team, that kind of player on your team when you feel like you're a championship contender. So the idea now that he's been hurt and the fact that the east has been what it's been this year in terms of the injuries and just kind of them mowing through the east, you had to just, you. You had to have this team ready. It's ironic that I think getting Bridges in the first place was kind of mostly about beating Boston. And they did that last year and you know, they were prepared for that challenge, but I think in doing that, it kind of prepared them for almost everything else. The Indiana series last year obviously was a really tough one for them, but with the east this week, I don't think it would have made sense to punt on Bridges or, you know, or to make a sizable move with Cat. Like, you know, they were essentially neck and neck with just about everybody. Detroit, I think you had to kind of rest on your laurels and just hope that they didn't have the experience to kind of get to the point that their record said that they should have gotten to and that and that played out the way it did.
- [40:38]
B
I also just wanted to add to the Jalen Brunson conversation, like, this is a guy who is near the league leader in charges taken every year, which is to me, such an incredible sort of note on your team's best player who's also a guard. I mean, it's just kind of, you know, an incredible indication of like who this guy is and, you know, Again, he's a little undersized, not as quick as some guys second round draft pick, even though he probably shouldn't have been. You know, all these things that give him this scrappy, you know, playing style and attitude, but just kind of like an incredible person to, to lead the Knicks through, you know, this resurgence. Chris, say a little bit more about, you know, you have a little of this in your, in your book's epilogue, but like how, how you see echoes of the 90s Knicks in this team. But, but also, I mean, basketball is almost a different sport now. It's like the, the scores, the scores from those NBA finals, especially in 99 are unbelievable. The Knicks I think scored like 68 and 77 points in the first two games of the 99 finals. I mean, incredible stuff. But, but there's, there's echoes of the 90s Knicks in this current iteration in,
- [41:59]
A
in every way, to be honest with you. I mean, I think it's so bizarre to, for some reason this is so, such a rare period for the Knicks and their fans just because things are going so well. And I think that it's natural, I think on some level for fans to almost get nervous because they're not used to things going this well and the Knicks rolling this well at this point in the season. People my age have never experienced that. Really. So I was texting with friends the other day of like, isn't it crazy that the Knicks are healthy and they're just waiting on the next opponent? And in my mind I was thinking to myself like, like remembering the 99 finals, remembering that they didn't have Ewing, remembering that they essentially lost Larry Johnson partway through that series. They had no size against the team that had David Robinson and Tim Duncan thinking about that. And then later that day that I was texting my friend about that Mitchell Robinson, the, the report about him having a broken finger came out and I was like, wow, wow. Like literally a center, them losing a center against the team that has Victor Women Yama, like the same spurs team that they played the last time they're in the finals. So that obviously is similar. What I would say maybe not about this particular team, but this, this iteration of the Knicks in the last few years was that they, they had a real level of physicality. I think that that was something that they had more with Julius Randall. But I will remember for a long time the first time they played the Cavs in the playoffs, just the way they beat them down, the offensive rebounded, they just looked like they punked the Cavs and on some level, obviously this last series as well, that they just kind of punked this team that was not physically ready for what all the Knicks brought. Obviously there's a Tom Thibodeau angle, but I think to your point about the way that the 90s game looked different than now, there's. There was a part of me, and certainly you could kind of tell in the tone of the writing that I had last year when I wrote about the team under Thibodeau, that made me wonder, like, are they doing certain things too old school in terms of the minutes played and the toll that they're putting on these guys bodies like there. I think I had a statistic in a story last year that there had not been a single team in the NBA over the last 25 or 30 years to lead the league in starters, minutes played to also make the finals. And Tom Thibodeau was the, you know, the coach in the league of guys that were active coaches to have won the most games with the highest winning percentage and not yet made an NBA Finals. I thought there was a correlation there. And I mean, there were private conversations I had with people on the Knick staff that thought there was a correlation there. And now we're talking about a team that looked more rested, that is peaking at this point in the season. And all that shifted really was the coach, you know, and maybe an extra year of continuity. So I think that there are some similarities in the through lines and the lifeblood of the organization in terms of Thibodeau being there and some of the toughness. But I think that there's a balance to be had there between the toughness and the idea that, like, be smart about some aspects of that. You don't have to pound your chest over the games played, the minutes played. You can have guys like rest a little bit at times and it can actually play to your benefit. So there are some similarities. I mean, I think there's a reason that people love Josh Hart as much as they do Starks, loves that he wears the same number as him. There's a reason for that, the reckless abandon that he sometimes plays with. There are some similarities, hands down, no question.
- [45:23]
B
You know, I do. I do think, and I thought this for a while, that every time I see Josh Hart a. That he could have been a 90s Nick. But then I also sometimes am surprised that they didn't retire Starks his number. Like when I see him, you know, and like, I get why not? But that always strikes me. John, what's your Thoughts on the echoes of the 90s and I would just
- [45:44]
C
put a point on what Chris is saying is that if I'm not mistaken, they're a better defensive team this year than they were last year. And I know they get a lot of credit and a lot of kudos for offense because Jalen Brunson is such a talented offensive player and Carl Townsends is such a talented offensive player. But they're a defense first team. And so, you know, that's, I think that's important to keep in mind on the subject of Josh Hart. I think Josh Hart is already from where I sit somewhere with Charles Oakley on like the Knicks role player Mount Rushmore. He is, he is just the heart and soul of the team in so many ways and just such a pleasure to watch. I think he, I watch sometimes like with, with people who aren't big basketball fans and for them, they are so drawn to him and they are right because he is special. And you can sort of see, you can see that with the way the players interact with each other sort of off the court, but also just the way he plays on the court.
- [46:40]
B
To be in the NBA and out hustle, virtually everybody is, is one of the most incredible things that can happen in sports. Right. It's like there are guys who are going to do it and the spurs have one or two of them as well. Like Stefan Castle is incredible and all over the court and I'm very excited to watch that sort of battle like hustle off in the finals. But yeah, Josh Hart, his intensity is incredible. OG Anunoby, by the way, could also be a 90s Nick. I mean, yeah, you know, he's, he's pretty good.
- [47:11]
C
All right.
- [47:12]
B
I don't have you guys for that much longer, so let's just talk a little bit more about this series to come. And of course, you know, people listening. If you're basketball fans, you can get NBA Finals previews in a lot of other places. So we're trying to, you know, make a lot of connections across history and New York City and so forth here. But Chris, as you look ahead to this Finals, what are the top couple of things you're watching, the biggest variables, the keys to, you know, who gets the early advantage? What are you, you know, sort of most honed in on here as we approach the start of the Finals?
- [47:46]
A
I mean, the, the really obvious one that you mentioned before, probably too obvious to even mention here, is just the rest versus kind of rust aspect. It's rare to have a team have a sweep at the stage that the Knicks did over the Cavs, especially when the other series goes seven games. So that, that is a very real thing that I think, you know, and I remember it being a thing as well when the Knicks played the spurs the last time in the finals of one team having a lot of rest and the other team not. So that's something that I'm curious about. By all means. I think the number of bodies that the spurs are going to throw at Jalen Brunson, they've got a lot of guys that are capable of either taking on Brunson defensively or switching on to him. And I think they'll show to be relatively comfortable with that doesn't mean that Brunson won't do great work against them. I think his career high was against the spurs, albeit, you know, at an earlier time in this team's iteration. So there's that. And obviously, I mean, we mentioned it earlier, Mitchell Robinson, it was already really important in the series. One thing that is wonderful as Cat is that you always have to be concerned about his foul trouble. If he is in foul trouble or Mitchell Robinson somehow is in foul trouble or the idea that like Mitchell Robinson is just, you know, to whatever extent you have with the idea that you're going to try to foul him in certain moments. The way that we saw in the last series obviously worked to the Knicks advantage last series. If you're going to do things to limit his presence when he is a guy that you really need to have out there at times to try to guard against Victor women, Yama and just the center rotation for the spurs, that's going to be interesting to watch, certainly, and, and pretty meaningful. It is just not a series where they can really allow for Cat to be in foul trouble because you, you want to try to safeguard Mitchell Robinson's hand as best you can. Now, granted, you're not relying on him to hit three pointers for your probably not even free throws to some extent. But you don't want a situation where you need Mitch out there for long minutes and you don't want a situation where. Where Cat is just not available because then it turns into the 96 again, where you've got one legitimate star out there, superstar out there against women Yama, who just is on another planet at times.
- [50:11]
B
Before you jump in, John, with some of the things you're most watching, let me just add to that because it's sort of on my mind is foul trouble more broadly is of course always important in basketball. But like in a series like this If Wembanyama has foul trouble, obviously that would be huge for the Knicks. But I also think the Brunson, Stefan Castle foul trouble questions, because they are going to, of course, hunt Brunson when the Knicks are on defense and him needing to stay out of foul trouble, which he's usually pretty good at. But, you know, the Knicks and the spurs have all these guards and they run, you know, so much good stuff on offense and they're tough. And so that'll be interesting to see, you know, if they, the Knicks can make sure to keep Brunson also out of foul trouble. And then if Castle is guarding Brunson mostly, you know, is he able to stay out of foul trouble because Brunson's so good at drawing fouls? You know, I think is interesting and that gets at this question of how this series will be refereed. I thought the refs were fantastic in the Western Conference finals. Not calling a lot of the sort of like, you know, Shay, Gil Alexander leaning in and Wemby does some of that too. And, you know, there's a lot of sort of, of course, of this around the league where, you know, it's borderline flopping or actual flopping. And I think it'll be really interesting to see how these games are refereed. John, what are you looking at for the finals here in key along the
- [51:30]
C
lines of what both of you have talked about? I think, you know, if you, if you think about last year against Detroit and against Indiana, what Brunson had to deal with in terms of full court pressure and bodies and intense guards, you know, Thompson, McConnell, like, chasing him around. The Knicks have not had to deal with that at all this playoffs, and it's really played to their advantage. And so whether they fall into some of their old habits that were pretty hard to watch with, you probably remember Brunson, like, just barely getting across half court before eight second violations. And just being clearly exhausted down the stretch of these games was a big, big issue. I'm looking forward to the sort of the chess match. I'm thinking of it as a chess match with him and Wemby. Like, what does Brunson look like when he gets in? You know, Brunson's a like a score in the paint. Like that's a strength. What does that look like? You know, some of his. His sort of moves and counter moves. And then can Josh Hart keep the spurs honest? Like, can he make some threes? Yes, Josh Hart can make some threes.
- [52:33]
A
Huge series, right?
- [52:34]
C
And so, you know, I think all the Things you guys have talked about a lot of overlap in what all of us are talking about, but it's, it's an exciting matchup.
- [52:42]
B
No, I mean, the three point shooting in today's NBA, as I was getting at it, being a different game than the 90s in a lot of ways is like the biggest difference. And I think obviously, you know, again, it may go without saying that that three point shooting is going to be key to this series on both ends. I mean, you've got. I mentioned him earlier. Champagne for the spurs can be streaky, but he's, you know, been hot the last few games. So then you have Landry Shamet coming off the bench for the Knicks. They might have to go to him instead of hard in some cases. If hard isn't hitting shots, you know, it's gonna end like Stefan Castle is a streaky three point shooter. You know, all, all of the, all of the shooting is interesting. I'll also add though, I think, you know, of course, just like the fundamentals of basketball at all levels, like the rebounding is going to be so key here because the Knicks have been running a lot and I don't know how much you can start to run when Wembayama is on the court. Right. And so, you know, it'll be very interesting to see that Chris jump in with anything else you want. But I'm wondering both of your views on this is. I, I sometimes think that team should challenge Wembanyama more in the paint. And you just reminded me of this, John, about what you're saying about Brunson getting in there. Maybe that's foolish and you know, letting him get up to 6, 7, 8, 10 blocks in a game is just totally counterproductive. And those can lead to fast breaks for the spurs and all of that. But I do feel like teams should challenge him more sometimes and I'm interested to see how Kat handles that when he drives into the paint because he can, you know, go hard to the rim and Obi tries to dunk with two hands all the time, and I love that. But it's a really interesting question, I think, about how much like players and teams are kind of scared of Wembanyama in there for very good reason, but whether it makes sense to sort of go at him more.
- [54:27]
A
I mean, you saw it all throughout the end of this series. Chet Holmgren played one of the, the most kind of lackluster games I've seen from a star player. I mean, he's, he's all NBA this year and took two Shots in a game seven against a guy that is fundamentally as contemporary, you know, and it, it's crazy. Anybody that thinks that it's as simple as being 7ft tall to make the NBA should watch Chet Holmgren. Remember that he's all NBA and then look at the gap between him and women Yama. That was a crazy game seven. But yeah, I mean part of what challenged him in that game seven is he just fundamentally looks scared to even take shots. Could not catch the ball. And so you can't have that kind of fear against women Yama. Yeah, I mean he also had five fouls. I can't remember now it was game, game seven or game six. I think that he had five files. You've got to go at them to some extent. It doesn't mean you've got to take shots every time, but you can't be so afraid of them. I mean, one other point that I'll make that I think is tied to this whole subject, man, you've gotta really try to. To make hay when he's out of the game to really run up the plus minus when Victor's out of the game. Because I mean there's just a night and day difference between the way that teams attack the spurs in the paint when was there versus when he's not. So if you are going to be somewhat timid, which that's normal for him to make teams that way, you have to try to make up for it by being really aggressive when he's just not there or if he is in foul trouble to go at him. You don't want to go outside of your game plan too much. But I mean that, that be honest here. If there was an injury or just persistent foul trouble to him, the same way that if something like that were to happen with Brunson, like you would not feel good about the Knicks chances. I think that's even more true for the spurs. Just given everything that women Yama does and you know, how much he's lifted this team. I mean they really have not looked the part of a contender in the moments where he's either been ejected or you know, concussion protocol or foul trouble. Like, like this is not a close series if women Yama for some reason is not fully available. So the Knicks have to make a point to really try to punish the spurs when he's out or if he does suffer from foul trouble here.
- [56:48]
B
And two other things I'll throw in, you know, it. It's that have come up in this conversation a little bit is like, can Mikhail Bridges for the Knicks continue to show consistency or. Or do we see that, you know, it's hard for him to keep it up because he has been so inconsistent over the last couple of years. I think that'll be really interesting. And like, how does Wemby's presence impact him? You know, sort of, if he's running out at Bridges threes or when Bridges does get into the paint a little bit, you know, I think will be, you know, really interesting, you know, as another sort of wrinkle of these things. And then I think, again, a fairly obvious point, but like, de' Aaron Fox, I think could be an X factor in this. In this series, because his scoring, they haven't. They haven't, like, really needed him to be the guy they brought him in to be because these other young guards are so good. But I think, you know, he's someone to watch, you know, at all times here.
- [57:43]
C
He was very good in Game seven.
- [57:44]
A
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Very good Game seven because he had experience. He's the only Spur that played a
- [57:50]
B
Game seven in our last few minutes here. John, other things that you're, like, just excited about, interested in Mike Breen's calling the finals, that would be kind of interesting. What else is on your mind?
- [58:02]
C
You know, honestly, to take it back to New York for a second. I can't remember a time that there was a. Like a. A riot or any kind of a street incident, like, in connection with sports in New York. I am a little concerned, I'll be honest with you, like, about. About some of that win or.
- [58:20]
B
That's in my notes here. I was like, it is on my
- [58:23]
C
mind, and I would really hate for such a joyous time to be marred at all. Over the last few decades, New Yorkers have been very good in sort of the kinds of situations that historically are in other places have. Have led to stuff like that. That's something that. That crosses my mind. That's. I don't mean to end on a gloomy note, like, on a high note. It's like. I mean, you talked about being a kid, like, this is sort of an opportunity. I'm taking this as an opportunity to try and sort of, like, find my inner child. Like, you know what I mean? Like, connect in a way that I haven't in a very long time. And I mean, knock on wood, if the Knicks somehow win, like, I. It's like, hard for me to even, like, conceptualize what that might feel like.
- [59:01]
A
Yeah.
- [59:03]
C
But. Yeah, I think just, you know, I'm I'm looking forward to the weather being good and the city just amping up higher and higher with, you know, a little concern in the back of my mind, but just, just all, you know, just. Just trying to enjoy it.
- [59:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. And of course we're not like getting at like doomsday scenarios here of like the Knicks get swept. You know, I mean, anything's possible. No, but I just, you know, it's sports. Anything's possible. The Knicks have. The knicks have won 11 in a row. They could sweep, but you know, it's just like all these high, you know, feelings in New York and of Knicks fans could, you know, could come crashing down. It's possible. The spurs are the favorite, of course, in the series, you know, and all that. Chris, couple final thoughts. I might have a parting question for each of you to wrap us up, but any other things sort of on your mind? Big picture about the NBA or. You know, it's. I think it's fascinating that when Banyama is like maybe becoming the face of the NBA here, which is interesting.
- [59:56]
A
Yeah, all of a storyline there, right. Just from the standpoint of, I mean we. You talk about guys that make it to the finals this quickly. What are the spurs? Like a year? Two years? At least a year, but I would guess more like two ahead of schedule where you're talking about a guy. We haven't seen someone do this and be favored to do this going since going back to Tim Duncan, which is just like scary hours. This was his first playoff appearance, this team's first playoff appearance. So, you know, there's plenty to be said about. Is this something that they could just do every year? Oklahoma City was not fully healthy, but then again, neither were the Spurs. So I mean, this is a. Either way, you either get one team that breaks a. A crazy drought in the biggest market in the nation, or you get someone who kind of puts his stamp on. I'm gonna be one of the greats, just get ready for how great. And kind of doing that for the first time in the same way that Tim Duncan did to start his career. And you know, that was something that I was really struck by and reporting. The, the book on the knicks in the 90s was just that they lost repeatedly at the beginning of that era to the polls. One dynasty. And then lost in the finals in the last year of the decade to the team that essentially would be the next dynasty. No, they did not ever win back to back titles, but for better or worse, it was essentially a dynasty and a team that won five titles in 15 years. And I thought it was so striking that the Knicks made it to the finals in 94 and 99, two years where Michael Jordan was not there. I thought that that was really eye opening for. And I think about that now, again, in terms of the idea that, like, Tatum is out, Halliburton is out, doesn't mean the Knicks wouldn't have gotten here. But again, why it made more sense for them once you made the coaching change to just kind of let everything just go as is and just run it back with this group. There was so much change throughout the conference where it's like, okay, these teams are out of the way. Just go for it. And, you know, so that's something that I'm watching and just curious, like, can they get it done if not now? I imagine it just gets tougher between women, Yama and Oklahoma City and the teams in the east kind of resurging at some point, right?
- [62:14]
B
But we just saw this with OKC where everybody's like, oh, man, this team could win, you know, six titles in a row. And then it's like a couple injuries. Don't play your best when Benyama, you know, asserts himself and the young spurs core, and then like, here they are. But, you know, Wemby's also got a profile of a guy who could, you know, be injured all the time. You know, like, you see this Knicks team, you think, oh, they're going to be right there every year. But you, you just never know. So that makes it windows close fast.
- [62:38]
C
You got to capitalize.
- [62:40]
B
All right, let's leave it there. Jonathan Fisher, Chris Herring, thanks so much for the time and thoughts. Really appreciate it. And we'll all be watching the finals and excited to see where it goes, but thanks guys for the time.
- [62:50]
C
Thank you. Thanks so much.
- [62:52]
A
Thank you for having me, man.
- [63:07]
B
It's. Sam.