Good Leaders Make Friends, Not Fans

Summary

Maxwell Leadership Podcast
Episode: Good Leaders Make Friends, Not Fans
Date: July 22, 2026
Host: John Maxwell, with co-hosts Mark Cole and Chris Goede

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Maxwell Leadership Podcast explores the distinction between having “friends” versus “fans” as a leader. The central message: Good leaders resist the isolating trappings of success and popularity, intentionally fostering genuine relationships rather than simply attracting admiration from afar. John Maxwell and the team reflect on practical ways to close the “success gap,” avoid relational isolation, and authentically connect with those they lead, regardless of their own achievements or titles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dangers of Success: Isolation vs. Connection

• Paradox of Leadership: Leadership increases both opportunities for connection and the risk of isolation. (00:00)
• Success Separates: The more successful you become, the more others tend to put you on a pedestal, which can create distance.
  • John recounts how signing books and taking pictures replaced real conversations (03:35).
  • Quote (John Maxwell, 04:39): “If I want fans, I want that separation... But if I want friends, I want to close that separation.”
• Deliberate Humility: Using self-deprecating humor and intentionally lowering oneself from the pedestal helps bridge the gap.

2. Pedestals, Titles, and Serving Others

• Pedestals Aren't Safe: John shares how being on a pedestal is “not a good place to live” for leaders. (05:55)
  • Quote (John Maxwell, 05:56): “If you’re clumsy like me and you’re on a pedestal, you’ll fall off and break a leg.”
• Disdain for Titles: John avoids being called “Dr. Maxwell,” preferring “just John.” (06:33)
• Serving vs. Being Served:
  • John intentionally finds ways to serve 10 people each year to prevent detachment (07:44).
  • He values serving staff, such as taking photos with kitchen teams at conferences (07:10).
  • Quote (John Maxwell, 08:34): “When you value others and serve them, [Jesus] says, you did it to me. That's huge.”

3. Leadership Gaps: From Fans to Friends

• Natural Separation: As influence grows, so does the feeling of distance—often through titles or perceived success (10:02).
  • Mark Cole discusses how leaders may be remembered for their titles, not their actions, unless they work against that tendency.
• Root Causes of Isolation:
  • 1. Not feeling understood (“No one understands the load I carry.”)
  • 2. Feeling like you have nothing to add (“I can't contribute, so I self-isolate.”) (16:52)
• Personal Responsibility: If you're isolated, you probably allowed yourself to drift; leaders must “insert themselves” into community and team life. (18:49)

4. Warning Signs of Leadership Isolation

• Seeing Yourself as Sole Author of Success: Losing gratitude and humility, failing to recognize the contributions of others. (20:03)
• Forgetting the Opportunity: Leaders should feel grateful for their platform and see current success as a foundation for future growth, not an endpoint.
  • Quote (Mark Cole, 20:51): “Today's success is only so that we can do something with it tomorrow. It's not an end unto itself.”

5. Truth-Telling and Creating Safe Environments

• Affirmation vs. Truth: Teams need truth-telling cultures even before affirming ones; otherwise, positivity can mask problems. (24:15)
  • Advice from Cath Maclay: “An affirming environment that is not built with a truth-telling environment first is a problem.”
• Building Safety: Leaders create environments safe for sharing hard truths without punitive responses, fostering both accountability and acceptance. (25:51)
• Rewarding Behavior Over People: Celebrate the choices and behaviors that advance growth, not just inherent strengths or past success. (27:12)

6. Addressing the Dark Side: Feeling Unsuccessful

• Isolation Isn’t Only for the Successful: Leaders may also distance themselves when struggling or feeling ineffective (28:13).
  • Encouragement to avoid isolation regardless of current status or perceived failure.

7. Practical Habits for Closing the Gap

• Walk Slowly Through the Crowd: John emphasizes intentionally taking time to engage people instead of rushing past them—even when busy. (John Maxwell, 03:35 & 29:54)

  • Anecdote: Chris Goede recalls realizing he’d “walked right by all his work” during a busy event.

• From Success to Significance: Focus should be on making a lasting difference—moving from what happens “to you” to what happens “through you.” (31:26)

• Regular Relational Self-Check:

  • Ask regularly: “What’s it like on the other side of me?” and “What am I missing?” (32:31)
  • These questions, especially when tied to follow-up behavioral change, shrink relational gaps and surface blind spots.

  Quote (Mark Cole, 33:29): “Every leader has blind spots. The way you get those blind spots—enlightenment of those blind spots—is not self-revelation. They’re blind spots. You get it with questions like ...what am I missing?”

8. Leadership Application Questions

• Reflection: Are you investing in relationships as much as your job?
• Intentionality: What relationships do you need to build or restore?
• Resource Mention: John’s Change Your World book and course, “Success is what happens to you. Significance is what happens through you.” (34:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• John Maxwell (04:39):
  “If I want friends, I want to close that separation. I want you to think that you can do the same thing, because you can.”
• Chris Goede (21:56):
  “If I put separation between me and the people that have helped me get success because I feel like it’s all on me, I have just shortchanged my ability to take the success and with people accomplish greater success.”
• Mark Cole (32:31):
  “It’s a discipline that I certainly learned from John. Every leader, every leader, every leader has blind spots.”
• John Maxwell (05:56):
  “If you’re clumsy like me and you’re on a pedestal, you’ll fall off and break a leg.”
• Chris Goede (29:54):
  “You just walked right by all of your work. It's like, shut up. Why'd you text me in the first place?”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 — Introduction: Leadership, Isolation vs. Connection
• 03:35 — John’s reflections on closing the “fan” gap and his early speaking experiences
• 05:55–06:33 — Titles, pedestals, and humility
• 07:44 — Intentional acts of service to avoid being served
• 16:52 — The two main reasons leaders become isolated
• 20:03 — Warning signs of isolation (loss of gratitude, seeing yourself as sole author of success)
• 24:15–25:50 — Affirming vs. Truth-telling environments
• 28:13 — Isolating during down times, not just periods of success
• 29:54 — Walking slowly through the crowd and avoiding leadership shortcuts
• 32:31 — Practical daily habits: two key feedback questions for closing the gap
• 34:46 — Application questions & resources for moving towards significance

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Practical Takeaways for Leaders

• Fight for connection by deliberately lowering “the gap” between you and your people—even (or especially) as your influence grows.
• Ask honest, vulnerable questions and act on feedback.
• Reward both truth-telling and the behaviors you want to see more of, not just outcomes or talents.
• Serve others intentionally—it anchors humility and connection.
• Don’t let “good times” or “bad times” justify pulling away from those you lead.
• Shift your focus from achieving success for yourself to enabling significance through others.

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This episode is a masterclass in authentic leadership, emphasizing that the true legacy of a leader isn’t a crowd of admirers, but a community of engaged, empowered friends.

Transcript

[A]

Isolation is bad. Connection with people is good. That's kind of the polar opposite, the paradox, if you will, that we're trying to create here. Leadership causes both. You got to resist isolation, and you got to fight for connectivity. Thank you for joining us today on the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. We are so excited about talking about friends and fans, and I, Chris, I. I'll tell you this right here. You've been fan. You've been a friend. You've played. You've played ball at. At college, collegiate level, at the. At the pro level. And you. You have a lot that you could say about friends and fans, but it. It's good. It's good when you have the opportunity to know somebody that you're a fan of and then realize there is a human element of them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's just. It helps with the credibility. Right. I know people ask me all the time, what's John like? I'm like, exactly like he is on stage and whatnot. And so, yeah, when you're a fan and a friend, that. That's a bonus. Doesn't happen often.

[A]

It doesn't.

[B]

But I agree with you.

[A]

I grew up. And again, you probably have a story like this as well. I grew up a huge fan of the Miami Dolphins. In fact, I'm still a fan of the Miami Dolphins. And the fact I'm saying that publicly lets you know I'm a fan because we've been terrible forever and I'm a foul. I'm a season ticket at the Falcons, by the way, all my friends at the Falcons. I love you. I love you. I love you. But I've always been a fan of Miami Dolphins. Huge fan of Bob Greasy, Nat Moore, all these guys, Larry Zonka. And one of my greatest chances in life was when I turned being a fan to Bob Greasy into being a friend of Bob Greasy. And I was given the opportunity to play 18 rounds of 18 holes of golf with Bob Greasy. And I can tell you, by about the third hole, I went, boy, I'm so glad I spent so many years being a fan, buying his jersey, supporting him, because being a friend to him was. Was much better than being a fan to him. I wanted to give you that thought today because as we send you over to John and let him talk a little bit about what he's done extremely well to stay. Hey, I'm John Maxwell, and I'm your friend. And that is not just a cute thing to say. That's something that the leader that is getting ready to communicate to you has done way before he Became the world's most noted leadership expert. John Maxwell made a decision. I don't want to be an expert. I don't want people to be fans of mine. I want to be a friend to people. And so I hope this will help you today. It certainly has helped me. Chris. We're going to get a chance to break it down and give you application. If you would like to follow along in today's podcast with a bonus resource, you can find [e-mail] friends if you want to see Chris Goede in a jacket, I mean, like, he wore a jacket today.

[B]

And we're in our new studio.

[A]

I'm impressed. In our new studio, if you've not checked us out on YouTube with our new studio that Jake and the team have put together, it's a different look and feel. I kind of have the same look except a few more gray hair. But hey, you got it. You got a new studio and you got a guy with a jacket on today. I'm just going to tell you there's something there at YouTube. You can find the link to [e-mail] friends as well as some other things we'll reference throughout the show today. So grab a pen, grab a paper, because John's going to help you know how to stay a great leader, but stay connected and be a friend. More than a fan. Here is John.

[C]

Success isolates us. There's a tendency when we're successful to begin to be isolated from people. Success separates. There's a separator with success. I don't like it either, but there is. And the stabilizer for isolation and withdrawal is to have solid relationships in your life. I can remember when I started out speaking at conferences. During a break, I would go off stage instead on the main floor, and people would come around and we'd just Talk for the 20 minutes. Whatever the break was, we'd just talk. And I just loved it. We'd just talk and then I'd get back up and I'd teach and we'd get back down, we'd talk and just basically teach, talk, teach, talk. I can remember the day when I went down to the floor to talk and somebody had a book. They said, would you sign the book? Well, sure, be glad to sign the book. And all of a sudden my talking time got replaced by signing books and I started to be separated and then they wanted pictures. And every day I ask myself, how do I close the gap? Because I want friends, not fans. I don't want fans. You see, if I'm gonna have fans. I have to make the gap big. I have to be way up here, and you gotta be way down there. And then you gotta say, oh, my gosh, he's amazing. I can hardly wait to hear him talk today. And oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Maybe I can get a picture. Oh, this stuff. Okay, okay. If I want fans, I want that separation. Because I want you to never think you can get where I am. But if I want friends, I want to close that separation. I want you to think that you can do the same thing, because you can. And so walking slowly, walking slowly through the crowds. That's why I use depreciating humor all the time. That's why I make fun of myself all the time. I'm trying to close, close the gap. If I say the word adulation, do you know what that means? Adulation? You know, when people kind of just adore you or they put you up on a pedestal? Maybe the word should be pedestal. I think it should be pedestal.

[B]

Maybe.

[C]

But when you're successful, people put you on a pedestal. Are you with me? I mean, they think you're better than you are. They put you up on this pedestal and. And it's not a good place to live. You know, first of all, if you're clumsy like me and you're on a pedestal, you'll fall off and break a leg. I mean, pedestals aren't good. I don't like titles. I don't like any titles ever. Never. I mean, I mean, I haven't earned doctorate, but I don't want it back home. I mean, Dr. Maxwell, really, really. I just paid a lot of money and served some time and got educated and got a doctorate.

[B]

Really.

[C]

I mean, I didn't come out of Mama's womb and she said, oh, Dr. Maxwell, it's good to have you here today. She just called me John. Just John. You know, it's a good name. Simple name, just works. My name's John, so I'm not into titles. I'm not into any pedestals. I'm not into any. When I'm with you, I want to walk with you. You know, I get really frustrated when they, you know, I go to these conventions. I've been in every kitchen in every convention center in America because I get there and they won't let me go out with the people. They make me go through a kitchen so nobody will see me so that I can make a grand entrance on stage. And it just frustrates the heck out. I say, I don't want to go through the kitchen. I want to be out with the people, so I frustrate them. I figured it out since I go to the kitchen tour all the time. Cause they're wanting to keep me away from the people, and they're wanting to make sure I'm okay, and they want to get me to the green room and isolate me and all that other stuff. And so I've just found. So I take my time going through the kitchen, and it just frustrates them to death. And I stop and I thank, you know, the kitchen people. I say, I want to thank you for serving us. And I want to thank. Can I get a picture with you? I got more pictures of kitchen people. I have intentionally. Since 1995, I've intentionally served 10 people. Now that 10 people changes, but every year I make sure there are 10 different people that I serve. Just make sure I serve them. It's really good if you're being served to serve people. It just stabilizes. It makes you solid. You know, it helps me to understand that everything shouldn't come my way. I've got an awful lot of people that take care of me. Got an awful lot of people that help me. Got a lot of. Awful lot of people to serve me. But there's something really important about serving people, and it shows you that you value people. You see, when you're on a pedestal, everybody's valuing me. But when I'm off of that pedestal, you just. Jesus took it so personally. What did he say in Matthew 25? He said, I was in prison and you visited me. I was naked and you clothed me. I was hungry and you fed me. And old people were looking at him, saying, now, excuse me, when did we visit you? When did we feed you? When did we clothe you? And what did he say? He said, the moment that you did this to the least of all these people, you did it unto me. Jesus takes valuing people so personal that when you value others and serve them, he says, you did it to me. That's huge.

[A]

Hey, I love what John said. And it's a quote that I've heard him say many, many times. Relationships are the foundation of leadership. And you heard John, in this. In this session today, really talk about what he has done and what we all should do to stay connected with the relationships with our family, with our. With our friends, with our community. And so, Chris, I'm really excited about breaking this down.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And what I love about this is we're going to talk about, how do you close this gap because we all are in situations where as you're growing, even maybe it's within your personal journey, your family at the local community, at the church or your organization, there is a trajectory that begins to separate at times, and there's this gap that will happen as you grow your leadership. And we're going to talk a little bit about how do you close that, practically how we've done that. And I thought, what better example than for us to unpack Mark Cole's journey? And you guys have all heard his personal testimony and story and how he's come up through the ranks and with that has been, he has stated this, more success than you probably thought you would ever have. I had a guy tell me one time, he said, hey, just remember your title walks into any meeting or any room before you do well. And then he said, it's your responsibility that when you walk out of the room, do they remember your title or do they remember something that maybe they learned or they were lifted up? So leaders listen, no matter what your title is, it's walking in the room and people just posture a little differently and they will isolate, just not because anything you did, but they will do that. And so it's going to happen. We're going to talk about how to close that gap and how, how Mark does that on a very practical basis. So let's start, let's start here. What have you learned about this journey of becoming successful? All of us are successful in different terms, right? But becoming successful, the relationship between that and then how it has driven some isolation in your life, Boy, it's so good, Chris.

[A]

And this is some behind the scenes. Chris and I come in, we listen to John just like you do, and then we go deep within and say, how have we applied that? What are we doing? That's how we prepare for you week in and week out. And again, I said this, I said this a podcast a few weeks ago, you got 50 plus years combined right here from guys that have learned from John, led for John, learned to watch John. And so when I was first listening to this lesson, when we were talking about it just a few minutes right before we go live, I went, man, John's level of success is hard to kind of connect with. And I was trying to go with how John does this so well, but how do I apply that to those of us that are not at that level of success? And you went, well, no, no, let's talk about yours. And so the reason I say that is because I believe 100% I'm getting ready to tell you how to stay relevant and not get isolated as it relates to your success. Which is what we're talking about the last couple of weeks. We're talking about success stabilizers, But I'm also talking about isolation from another direction too. Chris and go just a little bit of a tweak, but we're talking about right now in this aspect, we're talking about isolation as it relates to your. And Chris Goede tells us this incredible story of a friend that says, hey, if you've got a title, your title went before you. There's already a separation.

[B]

No, it's there.

[A]

And my response to that, this podcast that I was listening to is exactly John's response to success. I don't see myself as successful. I see myself as striving, as trying to get there. I do not find myself as even relevant to this isolation of success gap. I think the best way to not see yourself as isolated from success is to not see your success as success. It's a gift. It's because of others. It's a privilege. I'm a person of faith. It's because God has exorbitantly looked over my faults and given me great accomplishment. It's not what I'm doing. And so I listened to this podcast and it never even occurred to me I need to talk about that. I don't see myself as successful, by the way. My wife don't either. So we share that at home, and that's a good thing. But seriously, I think the first thing we do, I love it. I am going to talk about John just a moment in this idea. It never fails that somebody of great notoriety tells, John, I read your book and I have died to meet you. That John doesn't get in the plane or doesn't get in the car, doesn't do something and go, can you believe that we were able to impact somebody like that? He never takes it for granted that he had the ability to influence somebody of influence. I feel the same way. I think every leader, every one of us that have been gifted with a title that has a tendency to separate are given the privilege of a platform, like even this podcast that has the ability to separate you. The best thing you can do is not read the press clippings and not believe that you have a success gap. Be humbled by the fact that people even think there is a success gap. And so when you said that, I went, okay, I can do that, because certainly I'm a lot more successful today than I was 26 years ago. That's not a rocket science statement right there. I had nothing to give, but today I do have a little bit to give. A whole lot that we've been able to accomplish because of the wonderful team around us. But I never want to even feel like I should be on a pillar or have some level of success. And never, never, Chris, it does not occur to me that.

[B]

I got that. And I agree. And I think you're spot on with John too. Let me change it just a little bit because maybe the word successful may be a little bit of a barrier for both of us because neither one of us feel that way. John doesn't either.

[C]

But.

[B]

But maybe it is the higher you go in leadership. Yeah. Let's look at it this way. Yep. Because if we're being honest with those that are watching us on YouTube, listening to us, wherever you listen to your podcast. I know, I know, I know. I know because I've known you long enough that it breaks your heart because you love to lead teams. Love to lead teams. And I tell Mark this all the time. The best. Mark Cole is in some one on one development meetings. And the second is watching him galvanize and lead a team. And. And so we're going to change out the word success for increasing your leadership responsibility.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What happens is you then begin to get isolated from your team, from your friends, whatnot. And people are like, man, they're a fan of Mark. Right. But they've moved from being maybe a friend to a fan. So I think that has happened organically. So let's use those words as we unpack this a little bit. So when that happens, because you've been there, what are some of the warning signs that you experienced as a leader as you grew in your leadership, that you sensed or intuitively, you know, sensed or felt that you were becoming isolated?

[A]

Well, I think I love that. Thanks for even the reframing for me. I think that the first thing, the underlying lesson behind the lesson is the need for relationships and what success does to cause you to disconnect from relationship. And we use that word isolation to, to drive that. I believe there's two major reasons a leader isolates, and I believe it's one is they don't feel understood. Nobody understands the load I'm carrying right now. Right now I've got some isolation that is being. That is really. And what that does is it creates a gap, it can even be a success gap. But nobody understands because nobody's had to carry the load I'm carrying right now. And it's all this stuff that we use to justify the isolation that we have. And I think that's really the lesson behind the lesson. Isolation is bad. Connection with people is good. That's kind of the polar opposite, the paradox, if you will, that we're trying to create here. Leadership causes both. You got to resist isolation and you got to fight for connectivity. Because the second reason that I think people isolate is because they don't feel like they have anything to add. I can remember no success when I started this company 26 years ago. And I wouldn't even enter the conversation isolated because I did not feel like I had anything to offer. Well, I have went through some leadership challenges in my 26 years of leadership journey here, as well as another 10, 15 before I came here to where I would justify isolation because I didn't feel like I had anything to offer and. Or because everything that I was carrying felt irrelevant to the people around me. I was in a meeting with you recently and I sit through about a quarter of the meeting and I hope nobody knew because I wasn't running the meeting, but I spent for the third and went, boy, nobody knows the vantage point I'm having to bring to this leadership. So I used that statement. May have been true, may have not have been true, but it was an isolation statement that I was telling myself. And I remember the moment because the meeting feels still fresh to me right now. I remember the moment where I went, dude, are you going to go to where the people are? Are you just going to lament that you're only where you are? A leader has to go where the people are. If you are isolated, it's because you have allowed yourself. If you're standing on a pillar today, if you're. If you are not being brought into meetings, I'm just going to tell you, the leadership perspective is insert yourself, find a way to find the people, and don't allow the disconnect to happen.

[B]

Let me come back. So I think all of that is real. Are there a couple of things that when you look at. Let's just take your leadership team, you go. I feel like I'm isolated more than I need to be. So from your perspective, what are some of those maybe warning signs that a leader should be aware of that there's some isolation happening?

[A]

Yeah, I think the first is when you feel like you are the author of your success and you can't quickly go to other people that have you stand on their shoulders with your success. You're isolated. Your actions may not show it yet, but your Thinking's already there.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

You are isolated as a successful leader if you don't first understand your success is because of others. Secondly, because you are grateful for the opportunity. And thirdly, because your success is the end game, you don't have a brighter future ahead of you. The second thing, Chris, that I would say about these people that allow success to create this gap is they've lost their gratitude for the opportunity. I cannot believe John Maxwell lets you and I be on his team.

[B]

I can't believe either.

[A]

I can't believe I'm sitting in this podcast using his name to give my leadership thoughts to somebody else. And I cannot get over the gratitude of that. So the first is a humility. The second is a feeling of gratitude. The third is a sense of opportunity. Today's success is only so that we can do something with it tomorrow. It's not an end unto itself. Success is never an end unto itself. It's the old passage that we all heard about. John's dad drove it in him, my dad drove it in me. To the person who's given much, much is required. If I have some success, what keeps me from keep putting a gap to it is the belief I've got to have others to get to the next level of success. So if I put separ between me and the people that have helped me get success because I feel like it's all on me, I have just shortchanged my ability to take the success and with people accomplish greater success.

[B]

On the other side of that. And I agree with you 100%. The other side of that. We're, we're again just being transparent. This is, this is us living out leadership right here, here at Maxwell. Leadership. We're talking a lot right now about truth telling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm sitting there listening to you going, yeah, I agree with everything you're saying and I agree with the mindset, the humility, the gratitude and looking for the opportunity and especially the gratefulness. 100 agree with that. But I know you feel isolated at times as a leader. Yeah. When you don't feel like you're getting the truth. And we're on this mantra right now and I love it marks every meeting like we're gonna, we're gonna sit down, we'll tell the truth. Truth telling, when you move up, you become more successful. The higher you get, you probably do feel like there's isolation to what the truth is of what's going on on the day to day side of the business. How do you close that gap what are you intentionally doing as a leader to get to the point to where, now listen, this could be in your family, this could be in a volunteer group that you're leading. Like, we want to be excellent in all that we do. And the only way to do that is to get to the point where everybody in that team, that on that team, that organization knows the truth. Define reality. Where to start? How do you bring that gap back together? Like, how are you going about that personally? That would add value to those that are listening right now?

[A]

Well, some of this is going to be applicable to the question to others that would not be in the same situation. I am. First, let me say this. As a leader right now, in my world, I'm having to unlearn more than I'm learning. I'm finding out that yesterday's success, it's the old Steve Jobs quote that says yesterday's success is the enemy and the obstacle to tomorrow's opportunity. And so we're in a really place of great success right now. And I'm going, man, everything we did to get here has become a sacred cow that's keeping us from there. And so I'm honestly in a place of unlearning to be able to get there. So one of the things that I am unlearning is how to have a positive environment. Cath Maclay, a new friend of mine, did some incredible things in Walmart. She's a brilliant, brilliant leader. She came in and she said, mark, do you know that you have a very affirming environment? And I went, yes, we do. How you like that?

[B]

I'm proud of that.

[A]

She said, yeah, but let me tell you something. An affirming environment that is not built with a truth telling environment first is a problem. And she says, you have an affirming environment, but you do not have a truth telling environment. And she says, you can have an affirming environment and a truth telling environment, but you cannot get them out of order. You got to have a truth telling environment before you have an affirming environment. Because if you have an affirming environment first you won't have a truth telling environment. And we have an affirming environment. Everybody is the best thing since sliced bread. Everybody is all incredible until we're not. And then we don't know how to tell each other that we're not. Now, how do I change that? That's the question. Okay, I just had to set that because not everybody is there. How I've had to change that is to create a safe environment. It is safe. You're not going to be punitive. We're not going to be punitive if you tell the truth. We're also not going to let it defy the fact that we're positive people. So here's what I'll tell you about safety. Hey, it's safe here to be affirming of one another. It's safe here. If you say something that does not sound affirming, we've had to create that before. We wouldn't be able to say what we want to say. The second thing that I would say that involves having a safe environment is you've got to let people know that unconditional love, unconditional acceptance is just as prevalent as a strong sense of accountability.

[B]

Yeah, that's good.

[A]

You can't trade on that unconditional acceptance. Otherwise you have an unsafe environment. And then you're going to have a destructive environment because truth is going to become a tool, a weaponized perspective to say, yeah, I've been waiting a long time to tell you this stuff. Let me tell you what you are. I've got a leader right now that I am working hard with them to learn how to embrace negativity because they have been so positive all of their life. And yet negativity is right underneath the surface, and it's coming out in other ways. How I'm doing that is by creating safety, you are still valuable. You still are important to the team. So I would say create safety. The second thing that I would do is create incentive for truth. Create incentive for that connection that creates isolation. Now, what do I mean by that? That behavior is what we're celebrating now, not the accomplishment or the lack thereof. You've told me often, Mark, too often, you make the person the champion rather than the behavior of the person. John Maxwell says it like this, Mark, when are you going to stop celebrating the strengths and the gifts of your kids rather than the choices of your kids?

[B]

Well, that sounds much better than mine. You just keep.

[A]

Well, yeah, well, John said a few things, right?

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's true, right?

[B]

Brilliant. That's brilliant.

[A]

And so as leaders, we're rewarding behaviors more than we're rewarding people, and we're rewarding unlearning more than we're rewarding accomplishment. So get an incentive. And then the final thing that I would tell you is get clarity. What's going to happen if we don't become a positive because you give that reward and that challenge or that difficulty, and I'm watching that help Us unlearn some things.

[B]

I think when you think about this, we are all in the behavioral change business. Both starts with us personally first, but then as we have the responsibility and the privilege of influencing people, we're trying to help them change their behavior. And so in this scenario, what Mark's talking about is he felt the, the gap happening of not necessarily the team. Truth telling. Yeah. And as a team and as an organization, that is not going to work. It is eventually going to get to a place where it's going to fail and it's going to explode. And if you're not learning from it, then it's not going to be beneficial.

[A]

Let me say one more thing, Chris, because, boy, this is yet another podcast that Jake is raising flags, sending smoke signals, sending planes across the studio. But it's such a good conversation that we're having. I think there is one more component to success gaps that I want to just deal with because it creates isolation too. And that is the sense and feeling that a leader is not being successful right now. You know, we talk about the success gap and we attribute that to unprecedented numbers, record breaking years, teams accomplishing great things, and the leader gets successful and starts isolating. I think there's another component that may apply to one or two of our podcast members, not many of them, but right now is just not a good time. Yeah, it's a challenging time. And all of a sudden you have attributed your value to your sense of success, to your perception of your own success. And today you're listening to this podcast and it's like you're holding on to something encouraging because you're in the tank in your perception of your success because things are just not going well right now. And I got to tell you, that gap and that isolation is, is no better. In fact, in a world of people devaluing their own life at an alarming rate. Let me talk to all you leaders and say don't isolate when you're feeling no success either, because that's just as damaging and potentially disruptive, if you will, to the other side of success. Because success, pro or conversation, good or bad, should not create isolation in your leadership.

[B]

That's really good. One of the things that I want to just give you a practical example. When John talks about closing these gaps, he talked in the lesson about walking slowly through the crowd. And I don't know about you, but John's not a patient guy, doesn't want to walk slowly through anywhere. However, when it comes to the people mentioned it on this episode especially, he Gets frustrated because it's in the kitchen. I remember we were at an event that we. We did. It was a large event, several thousand people there, and I was on a mission, needed to get something. We were running the event. And so I walked through the foyer, full speed, head down, and I didn't think anything about it. I thought, well, you know what I mean, I'm leading this thing. I got to get something done. And I had a buddy of mine that was there, used to work with us, and he texted me later. He said, man, you sure look like you were in a hurry. And I was like, oh, I was doing this, doing this. And he said, well, I think we both worked for a guy one time that said you needed to slow down and walk through the crowd. You just walked right by all of your work. It's like, shut up. Why'd you text me in the first place? Right, but that's another small example. Much more on this, on a minuscule scale compared to what marks of the title of my position that day of running an event and something would happen. I literally allowed that to separate me from the people that were in there. And it also made me think about. And I know this is in you and in John, too, but you will make friends as you begin to go from success to being significant, not just staying at success. We could talk about this probably for a while too, is when you have the right focus of the fact that I've been blessed to be successful. But now I want to take that and get to a point to where we do some significant stuff together. Your people stay right with you both in. You're closer to them, they're closer to you. And so it is that mindset and that and that way of thinking. So that was just a thought as I was listening to you, that I wrote down. Here's what I want you to do as we wrap up today. What's a practical habit? Let's say there's an up and coming leader right now that is experiencing success more than they ever have before. What practical habits would you challenge them with to develop right now? And I know we talked about your. Your points, right? The humility and the gratitude and the opportunity. But is there a. Is there a practical habit? Something that you would say, hey, man, you're a success, you're killing it, this and that. But to make sure that there's not a gap and there's not isolation between you and your people and they become fans, what would you suggest they do?

[A]

Yeah. So it's a discipline that I certainly learned from John. It's something, Chris, that you do. And I would encourage every leader, every leader to ask this four times a year. And that it's two questions. What's it like on the other side of me? That is such a connecting gap, disintegrating question. What's it like to be on the other side of me? And that you won't get much the first time, the second time because you sign their checks, but when you start rewarding feedback like that with behavior changes, watch what happens. There's been some times that people said, what's it like? Give me an answer on what's it like the other side of me. And I went, good. I'm glad that's what it feels like because I'm kind of trying to deal with that behavior, if you don't mind. But I'll change it, even though I know I'm getting results that I want, because I want that leader to continue to give me other things that I don't see. Because every leader, every leader, Every leader. Did I say every leader?

[B]

Every leader.

[A]

Every leader has blind spots.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The way you get those blind spots, enlightenment of those blind spots is not self revelation. They're blind spots. You get it with questions like that. That says, what am I missing? What's it like to be on the other side of me? The second question I just said it is, what am I missing? Ask that question. I asked that question almost daily. What am I missing? What am I missing? One is, I have a great fear that I'm missing a lot because I don't see myself as a whole big old successful leader. But when you ask those questions, what am I missing? What's it like to be on the other side of me? You start shrinking that gap and ensuring that you stay relevant in your leadership. There's a couple of application questions I want to ask you today to wrap up today's podcast. Number one is, are you investing in your relationships the same way you invest in your job and in your work? How are you investing? Talk to me. Talk to yourself. Put a plan in and how you are investing. And then the second question that I would ask you is, what relationships do you need to be intentional about building or rebuilding in your life? And I hope our talk today shows you how you have isolation in your leadership. You have a tendency, all of us do, to take success and move that into a disconnect. Put yourself on a pedestal. John's what John said today, we have a product that'll get you thinking about the world around you, it'll get you out of your success. Isolation. It's our best significance product we talk about. Success is what happens to you. Significance is what happens through you. Our significant product is called Change youe World. It's a book John wrote several years ago. We've created a digital product off of that book that will help you see the world and what you can do for it rather than what you can get from it. And I wish you would pick it up today. I wish that something in the lesson today would make you want to think outside of yourself and think bigger than yourself. We'll give you a man, we'll give you a 2/3 off of that product. It's normally $300. We'll make it less than $100. You can find all that in the show notes. Check that out. And then Joy, I have to get Joy's question. That's my sister's name. I'm sure this is not my sister because she just called me and asked me the question. She listened to a podcast called 4 Ways to Turn Failure into Success. It's a great podcast. Goes right along with what we're talking about today. And we'll put that in the show notes. Here's what Joy asked. She said, mark, thank you so much for the comment that if that if you embrace easy, failure is the enemy and if you embrace hard, failure is an ally. Chris, I needed your comment about building stamina. When John says leadership is uphill, I intellectually understand it, but I have always struggled with that until you made the comment about stamina. Way to go, buddy. My brain suddenly went, I am struggling because I don't have stamina yet. That is the missing piece of the puzzle. What advice do you have to build leadership? Stamina.

[B]

We happen to the first thing that comes to mind is that we happen to be with a good friend of yours and John's. A couple weeks ago at one of our events, Maxwell Masterclass, Ed Bastian from Delta and he was talking about decision making. And so I'm going to tie this together to stamina because it, it has sat with me since he said this and it was interesting. He said the, the more decisions you're you make, the better you get. And oh by the way, if the decision's wrong, you have enough stamina time all stuff to make another decision and correct it versus I have a tendency to wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Make a big decision. And my biggest takeaway that is just practicing that muscle of making decisions. He said make them daily. And that is something that really stuck with me. That came out. And I think in order to increase your stamina from a leadership perspective, no matter what competency it is that you're trying to grow in that area, do it on a daily basis. Make it a habit behavior that you start acting on every single day.

[A]

Yeah, it's funny, I'd say this just to illustrate this, perhaps. So ditto. What he said. We just moved offices. We're up on the fourth floor, I think now is it the fourth floor? And so I used to park on the ground floor and come to our office on the ground floor, but it really wasn't the ground floor because there was a floor below us. It's ground on the backside of the building. Well, I decided when we first started this, I said, you know what? I'm going to take the stairs every time. I'm just going to take the stairs. And so, man, I had to huff and puff and get all the way up here. I'm not in bad shape, but I was huffing and puffing. You caught me the other day when I was like, man, are you okay? You need some oxygen? We good? Well, then I got that. And I was like, okay, this is good. I got it. And then I realized, boy, I could come in on the other side of the building and add another floor, a flight of stairs. Right? And now I am doing that. And so that's exactly joy what Chris is saying. You need to find the area where you're trying to build, trying to build stamina and take an extra flight of steps. Just take it. And by the way, way, don't do it just one time. Do it every time, and that will help you. Great answer, Chris. Hey, we have thoroughly enjoyed it, in fact, longly thrilled enjoyed it today, this podcast. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you again next week. Until then, go lead well, because everyone deserves to be led well.