What Your Dream Team Should Look Like

Summary

Maxwell Leadership Podcast: "What Your Dream Team Should Look Like"

Host: John Maxwell with Mark Cole and Chris Goede
Date: May 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, John Maxwell, joined by Mark Cole and Chris Goede, explores the concept of building a "dream team" as a transformational leader. The central theme is that while individual leaders can’t be perfectly balanced, a team, collectively, can achieve balance—bringing together complementary skills, diverse backgrounds, and shared values to multiply impact. The episode provides actionable steps and introspective questions to help leaders form and nurture effective, growth-oriented teams while examining classic leadership pitfalls, such as the drive to be the “most well-rounded leader” at the expense of empowering others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

There’s No Such Thing as a Balanced Leader—Just a Balanced Team

[02:01] John Maxwell:

• Life isn’t balanced, and neither are leaders; every day brings twists and turns.
• Quote: "There's no such thing as a balanced leader, but there is such a thing as a balanced team."
• Balance is achieved collectively: team members complement and complete one another, especially when individuals have off days or different strengths.

The Five Elements of a Dream Team

[03:07] John Maxwell:

1. Skills that Complement: Team members excel in areas the leader does not. This makes it easier to hand off tasks for better results.
2. Heart that Reflects: Alignment of core values and passion.
3. Passion that Inspires: Team members’ enthusiasm sparks motivation.
4. Growth that Enlarges: Being around personal growth propels everyone to keep improving.
5. Love that Nourishes: Genuine, unconditional support within the team.

• Quote: “When you say, well, as a leader, I’m losing balance—well, probably you are… but you’ve got people around you… they compliment you, they complete you. Have a balanced team.” [04:53 John Maxwell]

The Perils of Leadership by Assumption

[05:32] John Maxwell:

• The greatest hindrance to communication is assumption.
• Assuming you know what your people want is the lowest form of understanding.
• Key Principle: “You’ve got to find your people before you can lead your people. Leading people without finding people is assumption.” [06:18 John Maxwell]
• Great leaders listen, learn, then lead.
• Asking questions, rather than simply giving direction, eliminates assumption and improves leadership.

Directional vs. Interactive Leadership

[08:47] Mark Cole:

• Many leaders feel they must have all the answers and skills.
• John encourages being “less directional and more interactive,” seeking others’ perspectives.
• Building a balanced team means making it about others, not just the leader.

Building the Team: From Availability to Intentionality

[10:21] Chris Goede & Mark Cole:

• “You get the team that you deserve over time” — teams should be selected intentionally, not by availability.
• Mark stresses the importance of praying for “winners” and maintaining readiness to spot potential team members in unexpected places.
• A robust hiring process must consider character, competence, and culture.

Mark Cole on Hiring Criteria

[13:52]

• Character: Do they align with and relate well to the team?
• Competence: Can they do the job? Let subject-matter experts decide.
• Culture: Will they thrive in the unique, sometimes dysfunctional team environment?
  • “Every family has dysfunction. The question is, can you put fun in the dysfunction?” [13:53 Mark Cole]

The Dangers of Striving to Be a Well-Rounded Leader

[15:46] Chris Goede to Mark Cole:

• Leaders often try to become the best at everything instead of allowing their teams to excel.

• Mark shares a vulnerable, personal account:

  • Over several years, he unintentionally limited team members to remain in control.
  • This self-focused approach stifled both the team and his own mission to empower others.

• Memorable Quote:
  “To keep myself as believable... I've limited some people around me in their expression of their strengths so that it could feel like I was still in control... I have limited them to stay at the potential that I could control.” [18:12 Mark Cole]

Illustrated with Drew Brees Example

[20:11] Mark Cole:

• NFL star Drew Brees credited record performance to his linemen and teammates, not personal achievement.

• Lesson: Great outcomes come from enabling others’ strengths.

• “What are we doing as leaders that is limiting the balance of our team... our own ego won’t get out of the way and let them lead to make you balanced.” [21:18 Mark Cole]

• Most leaders don’t excel further because they haven’t learned to let others be better than them.

Celebrating, Not Tolerating, Differences

[23:51] Mark Cole:

• Leaders tend to:
  1. Try to change team members to be more like themselves.
  2. Tolerate differences.
  3. (Rare) Celebrate differences and integrate diverse strengths.
• The most effective teams are those where differences are celebrated and integrated, not merely tolerated or suppressed.

Emotional Intelligence & Team Awareness

[26:22] Chris Goede:

• Emotional intelligence (EQ) is critical for leading self and building team awareness.
• Leaders must regularly self-examine and seek to understand team dynamics to foster collective balance.

Assessing Heart & Alignment in Hiring

[27:39] Mark Cole:

• When interviewing, assess alignment with core values by seeing candidates’ responses to important organizational aspects (e.g., faith, growth appetite).
  • Not requiring ideological sameness, but understanding and respecting team values.
• Critical Interview Questions:
  • “Where are you currently growing, and how is it bearing fruit?”
  • “Who’s your mentor? Who influences you?”
  • Not being able to answer is a red flag.

Enabling a Growth Environment

[30:26] Chris Goede:

• Leaders must allow team members to challenge and grow them.
• Cited John Maxwell: If team members don’t up-level a leader’s idea, they’re not invited back—true team growth is a two-way street.

Listen, Learn, and Lead: A Transformative Model

[31:59] Mark Cole & Chris Goede:

• Referencing John Maxwell’s “listen, learn, lead” model.
• Chris uses this in his email signature as a public accountability tool.
  • Quote: “It’s about curiosity... I want to be curious when I’m listening to my team or a partner or a vendor, a client, doesn’t matter, because I don’t want to just listen to hear them. I want to be curious then if I get to that.” [33:32 Chris Goede]

Real-Life Impact Story

[36:07] Chris Goede:

• Listening to a team member led to a large investment and significant return, both in revenue and impact, validating the listen-learn-lead approach.

Challenging Listeners: Action Steps

[37:36] Mark Cole:

1. Self-assess: Out of listening, learning, and leading, which needs the most improvement in your leadership? Spend the next 7 days intentionally working on it.
2. Reflect: What is your “tagline” — stated or unstated — and what do you want people to take away from your leadership?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• John Maxwell [02:01]: “There’s no such thing as a balanced leader, but there is such a thing as a balanced team.”
• John Maxwell [05:32]: “The greatest hindrance to great communication is assumption. Assumption is the mother of all mess ups.”
• Mark Cole [21:18]: “What are we doing as leaders that is limiting the balance of our team, but all the raw ingredients are there. But our own ego won’t get out of the way and let them lead to make you balanced.”
• Mark Cole [23:51]: “Very rarely does a leader learn how to celebrate the differences. We don’t learn that in politics… It’s the great leaders that learn not how to change people… It’s the people that celebrate them and integrate their genius into the team that really has the balance team.”
• Chris Goede [33:32]: “It’s about curiosity…if I want to always be growing and I want to always be curious and I want to always try to lift the lid of myself and the team around us, then I have to listen out of curiosity, and then I got to take what I’m hearing and learn from it, and then I can lead.”
• Mark Cole [37:36]: “What’s in your tagline, either stated or unstated, what are you wanting people to take away from you every single day?”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:01] John Maxwell introduces the “balanced team” vs. “balanced leader” concept.
• [03:07] The five elements of a dream team.
• [05:32] Dangers of assumption and importance of asking questions.
• [08:47] Directional vs. interactive leadership; making leadership invitational.
• [10:21] The intentional approach to building teams and hiring practices.
• [15:46] Why being a “well-rounded leader” is limiting—Mark’s personal story on control and growth.
• [20:11] The Drew Brees analogy on team achievement.
• [23:51] Dealing with differences—change, tolerate, or celebrate.
• [27:39] How to assess the “heart” during hiring.
• [31:59] Listen, learn, lead: model, accountability, and impact example.
• [37:36] Listener challenge: improving listening, learning, or leading and reflecting on your leadership “tagline.”

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Practical Takeaways & Challenges

• Leaders can’t do it all: Seek team members with strengths where you are weak.
• Avoid assumption: Replace direction with questions; listen and learn before leading.
• Celebrate differences: Don’t hire, tolerate, or suppress differences—leverage them.
• Curiosity is key: Practice curiosity daily in all conversations.
• Reflect for accountability: Publicly commit to key leadership principles and invite accountability.
• Self-improvement prompt: This week, improve one of listening, learning, or leading—and reflect on the impact.

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in the art of team-building for transformational leaders. With transparency, practical models, and meaningful stories, John Maxwell, Mark Cole, and Chris Goede challenge listeners to abandon perfectionist, control-focused leadership in favor of nurturing and empowering teams. The result? A truly balanced, high-performing “dream team”—one that leverages every member’s skills, heart, passion, growth, and love.

"Everyone deserves to be led well." – John Maxwell & Maxwell Leadership Team

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For additional resources, show notes, or bonus tools, visit: maxwellpodcast.com/dreamteam

Transcript

[Chris Goede]

Foreign.

[Mark Cole]

Hey, welcome everybody, to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. And when I say everybody, some of you have literally listened to all 400 plus episodes. You're like a junkie. You keep listening, hanging in there, saying, is Mark and Chris Goede going to ever get good? Then others of you are brand new to this or you just started at the beginning of this year. Don't. No matter where you are on that spectrum of podcast engagement, we're so glad that you're here. In fact, today, I'm so glad you're here because I want you to think not just as a podcast listener, but I want you to think about like a podcast team member. Because today we're gonna talk about what your dream team should look like. And I gotta tell you, you're our dream team because we're a podcast that adds value to you with the expectation you'll go multiply value to others. That's the ultimate dream team for a podcast, is we add value to you and you go do something with it. I'm so excited. John makes a statement. I can't wait to get to it. John makes a statement that says there's no such thing as a balanced leader. Can somebody say, that's right? But he says, you can have a balanced team. And then he spends today several minutes talking to us about how to develop, how to create and how to expect a balanced team. So stay tuned. John is coming. By the way, if you'd like to watch this podcast, if you'd like to download a bonus resource we've created for you to take notes and just kind of capture this, you can find all of [e-mail] DreamTeam we'll proud to make that worth your while and just something you want to do by adding stuff in throughout the show. Today you can go to Maxwell podcast again. Maxwellpodcast.com Dreamteam hey, grab the pen, grab the paper. Here is John Maxwell.

[John Maxwell]

There's no such thing as a balanced leader, but there is such a thing as a balanced team. People are asking me about balance all the time. How did I become a balanced leader? And you've heard me talk about the fact that I don't think it's possible to be a balanced leader. Life's not balanced. Every day isn't the same for me. We get surprised every day. Thing twists and turns happening. Remember, I talk about seasons in your life, seasons as a leader. So when we talk about being a balanced leader, I just think that one person can't live a balanced life. But I think when you join A team and get a team together. Now you can have balance because you even each other out. You follow me? You're sitting beside somebody. Maybe you're having a bad day, but they're having a good day. And maybe you haven't had a good thought today, but they have a good thought. And we begin to kind of complement one another. We begin to complete one another, and all of a sudden, we get a balance with each other that we would not have without each other. So as I was working on this, all of a sudden I thought about my inner circle. I thought about my dream team and who they are and what they do for me and how they make me balanced, how they balance me out, how in their diversity and in their background, different. It's just how that we make each other better. We complete one another. And I wrote down five things. I'm giving it to you really quickly now. My dream team. Your dream team should have five things that will keep you just kind of, I don't know, balanced. My dream team has number one, skills that complement me. They can do things better than I can do. So there are a lot of times they lead, not me. I hand the ball off to them. Why do I hand the ball off to them? Because they're better at it than me. So they have skills that compliment me. They have a heart that reflects me. It's kind of like, yes, that's who I am. That's how I feel. So, you know, skills that compliment me. Heart, you know, that reflects me. Thirdly, a passion that inspires me so many times. It's their fire, it's their passion, it's their zeal, it's their joy that just kind of sparks me. And then they have. Because we're all growing together, they have a growth that enlarges me. You know, when somebody around you is growing, what does it do? It keeps you growing. Isn't that right? We get better with each other, and that's what a growth environment is. And then they have also. They just have love. They just have love that just kind of nourishes me. Yeah, they love me unconditionally. They know my faults, and they just. They love me. And so when we think of balance, I don't think you and I individual. I don't think we are individually balanced, but I do think we collectively get balanced. And that's what I want you to see. So when you say, well, I think as a leader, I'm losing balance. Well, probably you are. You probably are a little edgy, but you got people around you. They come in and they compliment you. They complete you. So have a balanced team. You're not gonna be a balanced person all your. And I'm not even sure you're supposed to be, but have a balanced team around you. Does that make sense? Huh? It just works, doesn't it? Okay. The greatest hindrance to great communication is assumption. Assumption is the mother of all mess ups. And let me tell you why. Assumption is the lowest form of understanding other people. When I assume I know what you want, when I assume I know what you think, it's the lowest form of knowing you. It's the lowest form of understanding you that I can ever have in my life. That what do I teach you all the time? You gotta find your people before you can lead your people. Leading people without finding people is assumption. I think I know what you want, so I'm gonna provide what I think you want. Well, it's a miss. But the moment that I walk slowly through the crowd, what do I teach all the time? What do leaders do? Leaders listen, learn, and then they lead. That's what leaders do. So I would encourage you as you build people on your teams in that whole area to, to just listen well and learn from them and want to know about them and don't live in that assumption world. That's just not going to get us. That's not going to get us where we want to go. I think one of the most important books I ever wrote, you know, books surprise you. When I write a book, I'll say, okay, this is going to be really good and help a lot of people. And hopefully they're all going to help a lot of people. But I sometimes can't pick what the bestsellers are gonna be at all. I get surprised. And when I wrote the Good Leaders Ask Great Questions, I thought this is a book I need to write because it's a truth that leaders need to know. But I thought, I don't think the book will do well. I mean, I think that because most leaders don't think they need to ask great questions, they just kind of think they need to give great direction. And that book has just been one of the big surprises. That book just keeps selling and leaders come up to me all the time and say when I learned to ask questions, I became so much better a leader. Why did they become a better when they learned to ask questions? Because they got rid of assumptions. Asking questions gets rid of assumptions. Not asking questions makes you assumptive in your leadership. And so it's so healthy. Instead of Being so directional as a leader. Be interactional as a leader.

[Podcast Narrator]

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[Mark Cole]

hey Chris, I love what John said there about try being less directional and more interactive. And so many times we as leaders and we're going to get into this here. So many times we as leaders think we have to have all the answers, all the skill sets have to be all the best. And John's saying no, no, no. Be invitational, get people around, be interactive, make it about other people's perspective too as a leader and you will begin the journey of a balanced team. I love it.

[Chris Goede]

Leaders around the world that we have met and I've been in this phase myself, we don't like to say these three words, I don't know because we think we should have all the answers. And I've had teams that have all been like me and we've not produced and I think he's onto something here. It's very simple principle about having that well rounded team that you all. And it's not just them helping the leader, it's the leader helping them in the areas that they may be deficient as well. As we dive in today, I thought about leaving this to the end. But I want to start because I think when we talk about this and you and John and I've watched you do this for years and so intentionally and I think pray for leaders, pray for people on the team. And I want to start before we get into the the how and some of the details behind this. I think a lot of leaders, they initially they get the team that they get, but you get the team that you deserve over time, right?

[Mark Cole]

Oh, that's good.

[Chris Goede]

And you specifically, I've seen you not hire people out of availability. You've hired them intentionally because you and John are always looking for leaders. Talk to us about the importance of having that lens as a leader as we're talking about what a dream team. I want to start with this, because this is what you guys do all the time.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah. John and I both would say, and

[Chris Goede]

I think the more

[Mark Cole]

visionary or responsible for casting vision I become, I relate to the statement that John makes even more. And the statement is, I don't think John and I either one are great at hiring. Here's why. What we look for is attitude, which is super important. And we look for people with potential, which is equally important. But often if you hire off of attitude and potential and you don't do a little deeper dive, you get a whole lot of feel good, a whole lot of hopefully. But you may not get so much production. And so you have to get, you have to get a level of scrutiny. John calls them the, the, the people that come in and just want to say no to everything. You got to get some scrutiny in the hiring process. And the, the, the older I, the more mature I get in my leadership, the more I'm realizing that to have a balanced team, you need more than just my perspective when recruiting somebody on the team. But now, now that I've said that, it, it is a, it is a very sp. We pray for winners every single day. I got up this morning, pray. I thank God for the winners I already have, and I prayed for new winners that I don't have. It's a daily, daily discipline for me that I learned from John. Therefore, my radar's on all the time.

[Chris Goede]

Yeah.

[Mark Cole]

Because I prayed for you this morning. Ah, you're the one I was praying for this morning. I've said that hundreds of times. Oh, it was you that I was praying for this morning before I met you now. So I think what good recruiters, good visionaries do is they're constantly looking even in the most unlikely places for people that should be a teammate. You have stories, I have stories. We all have stories of sitting in a restaurant being served by somebody going, your next assignment is to join my team. And I think we all need to be looking for things like that. I think the second thing that I would say to this, Chris, about intentionality on this is I think you do need to have a hiring policy, a hiring process. One of the great things that you're doing now at Maxwell leadership among, working with corporations, leading a team that works with corporations, instilling five levels and other intellectual property to make their leaders more productive, more effective, is you also serve as our culture lead here at Maxwell Leadership. And one of the things that I would challenge everyone, and I hope you're constantly looking to up level hours, is to get a hiring policy, a Process, a procedure that works for you? For us, for years it has worked as character, competence and culture. Are they a character fit? And that's not morals and ethics. That's more can they relate to the people that are going to be on the team? And the only people that answer that is the people that's on the team. The leader can't answer it. The chief culture officer can't answer it. The person that's going to be working alongside of them, then we hire on competence. The only real person that can answer that is the person that has the greatest clarity of what we're asking them to do. The leader.

[Chris Goede]

That's right.

[Mark Cole]

And so we let them be the balls and strikes, the final decision maker on that. We then go to the culture question, do they get us in all of our dysfunction? Every family has. Every family has dysfunction. The question is, can you put fun in the dysfunction? We're dysfunction. We've got challenges, we've got things that really make us unique. But in that is also the things that make us unique. And so we really work hard on hiring that, on communicating that, on making sure that's clear and making sure that our culture will awaken the greatness in the person that we're hiring.

[Chris Goede]

And I wanted you to share that because that's at the beginning, before you have that process for them to go through. You know, us as leaders here at Maxwell Leadership, we've known that for a long time. You and John do that. And we just try to model that. I was with a business leader earlier this week and it was so fascinating. We were talking about building teams and revenue and whatnot. And we were going over some numbers and he said, hey, in my business, this number, this line item right here of revenue, this is going to come from people I haven't even met yet.

[Mark Cole]

Love that.

[Chris Goede]

I got chills. I was like, yes, I see. And he's all, you know, recruiting process and everything he's doing. And so I wanted you to share that because I think it's important. Now let me ask you this question because I have no doubt that you and I have done this through our years and sometimes we may fall back into our old ways. We need to ask for forgiveness. Why is it because I know you consult with leaders, you're around leaders all the time and we see it at every level. Why is it so dangerous for a leader to try to be so well rounded, like we talked about a little while ago, versus having a well rounded team? What are the results of that? That we need to make sure that we're not hiring a bunch of marks or hiring a bunch of Chris's.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah. So warning podcast listeners, viewers, warning, Jake, Wade, Chris, ask a question I told him to stay away from before we started recording. Because I'm right in the middle of it. Chris. For five years, seven years ago, John said, mark, I want you to take a new role in the organization. This is an organization that I have grown up in. I learned business in this organization. I recovered my life. I restored my life. This organization has given me everything. I am a true product of our deliverable. I am. And so I know it. I know it inside and out. I know I communicate on John's behalf sometimes. That's not a joke. I really have to. It is a joke to think I really do it. So let's start there. But I. I am learning something right now. After seven years, six years, seven years of knowing I had the role of carrying John's legacy to the next level of believability. And I've had the physical responsibility of owning and making the P and L make sense from my own personal worth, my own personal assets, bootstrapping at times. Okay, so I own it. I own it with all the things that it means. But over the last three months, I have to own it at a different level. Cause John has transitioned how he's mentoring me, how he's interacting me. He's changed the rules of engagement of how he and I are working together. And it is a stark change. In that change, I realized that for six years I've been trying to control this organization. Now I'm getting to the question of what do we as leaders sometimes do when we think we have to be the best at everything? And this is a deep question. It's a very learning question. It's a question that all you counselors out there, paid professional counselors, and I know you're out there. Me, you listen, you would love to be in studio with me on a couch right now. That's the setting. And I'm learning that for five to six years. And this is going to be an aha moment for you. You haven't even heard some of this. This is stuff just this weekend and mentoring that John's doing. I've determined that to try to keep myself as believable in the organization, in this new role, I've limited some people around me in their expression of their strengths so that it could feel like I was still in control of that. I've deviated from my own personal mission statement of motivating and Inspiring people to reach their full potential. I have limited them to stay at the potential that I could control.

[Chris Goede]

So hold on.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah, take that one.

[Chris Goede]

Hold on. You asked for it. Yeah. I want to stop for a minute to a byproduct, right. Of. Of what we're talking about of you trying to stay well rounded, to stay on the top as a leader. You're realizing that the results of that has been the team around you has been stifled or at times and has not produced at that level, has not. Has not allowed that well, the roundedness to really, truly act as a unified team, to raise the lid because of your leadership 100%.

[Mark Cole]

That's exactly what I'm saying. And I don't even know how deep this is yet because it's such a new thought for me. And now I can even tell you, which is another show for another day. I can tell you why that is, which originates back to something I never reconciled as a child. We heal childhood wounds and all that kind of stuff early in life. Leadership tendencies has manifested or shown itself in the last few days of my last five or six years of leadership. Blind as blind can be. You ever heard of blind spots? Blind spots. Now, here's the question. Leaders. So that this doesn't become a therapy session, but a helpful session, what are you doing that is limiting the people around you? Because you have put an expectation on yourself that you need to be the best person in the room, Right? That's the question. I was just last this week I was with Drew Brees. Now you're a football guy. Your son played football. You played football at every level. Drew Brees is the only. He's getting in the hall of Fame this year. Did you know that?

[Chris Goede]

Did not know that.

[Mark Cole]

He is and so amazing. Drew Brees is the only quarterback in NFL history that has five years of over 5,000 yards of passing yards. Wow. Now we talk about the greats of Tom Brady. He had two years. We talk about the greats of Patrick Mahomes. He had two years. There's many greats that never got to 5,000. He had them for five years. And we unpacked that at this event that I was doing with him and John Maxwell and others. Here is the point. He never could say. He said, man, those years I had some of the best linemen in the world. They gave me more time than those other guys have. He never made it about his accomplishment. He always made it about the skills that were around him that got it. Now, is he right or is he modest? I don't know. Here's what I do know. All of us leaders that think we have to be good at everything to set records. You will not set records. You're not balanced. You can only be a balanced team when you completely take the lids off of the great lineman on your team and let them give you a little bit more time than the next guy.

[Chris Goede]

Sure.

[Mark Cole]

Then the receivers who are all stars that can catch unbelievable catches that gives you those 5,000 yards. What are we doing as leaders that is limiting the balance of our team. But all the raw ingredients are there. But our own ego won't get out of the way and let them lead to make you balanced. And I'm just going to tell you that I could talk about that forever, but most of the time I would tell you great leaders are not better than what they already are because they have not learned the art of letting others be better than them.

[Chris Goede]

Yeah. There's a whole podcast behind our intro here. We're still in the intro. And that's hard to hear sometimes as leaders, you may be sitting there and you may already be deflecting it. And we're going to challenge you to go back and listen again.

[Mark Cole]

Can I say something?

[Chris Goede]

Absolutely.

[Mark Cole]

You are deflecting it. I've deflected it for years and years, Years even from my most trusted advisors. I deflect it. You can't see it. It's blind spot.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Mark Cole]

It took almost a light from heaven. I mean, it took this whoa for me to see it and then to be able to see what was paralyzing me. The actual source was a whole nother discovery that we will not have time for today. That I'm loving leading right now. It is so fun for me.

[Chris Goede]

His word of the year. Right. Is being lived out.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah.

[Chris Goede]

It's so joyful.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah, I'm loving it.

[Chris Goede]

The blind spot, you know, we say and we define it as it's an overused strength. And I think why what you just said just hit so hard for me personally is going maybe naturally God has given you some talents that you are well rounded.

[Mark Cole]

That's right.

[Chris Goede]

I'm just going to stop. You can finish where I'm going with this thought. That blind spot is a limit limiter to not only your leadership, but also the people around you and what you can do. Now I'm going to change direction so that you and I just don't keep talking about this, but you're talking about this skill set real quick. And John talks about in the first one, skills that complement you. One of the things I want you to address and talk about is how do leaders. How have you handled this? Doesn't happen often here because of the process that you have in place and how we go about bringing on people. But how have you handled highly skilled leaders or people that you have brought in? And then you realize they don't necessarily align with other parts of your organization?

[Mark Cole]

I've handled them differently than I will going forward.

[Chris Goede]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Mark Cole]

How I've handled them.

[Chris Goede]

I need everybody at Podcast

[Mark Cole]

Conversation, and I gotta get off of it because I'm learning it so much and I'm so passionate about what I'm learning that it will overtake our subject if I'm not careful, and our whole subject will be about it. But let me first say that, because that's a reflection of how I have been leading. But let me tell you what leaders have a temptation to do. I've been. I've been living out this temptation. The way we deal with people as leaders that are different than us is one or two. Two, two ways, in my opinion. And it should be a third way. Most of the time, the leaders in us, we hire them because we think we can fix them, we can change them. Give me time and I'll get them to see my way. We're the leader. Our way is right. I have a good friend. He's a friend of yours as well. His favorite quote of me, Mark Cole, is, Mark Cole, rarely wrong. Which I like that. Right? Rarely wrong. I really like that. But then he finishes the rest of the sentence, and it is not a compliment. He says, rarely wrong, never in doubt. Right. That's my friend and your friend, David Hoyle. And I love that quote because it's almost like a compliment. Rarely wrong and then never in doubt. Which I'm going, no, I'm really not certain. That's not a good thing. Because we're, as leaders, rarely wrong and never in doubt. We look at people that think different than us, and they just say they haven't been enlightened. I'm sent to you to enlighten you. We're God for them. We're going to show them the right way. Right. The second reason that we do it is we tolerate their differences. We try to change them, or we tolerate it. Very rarely does a leader learn how to celebrate the differences. We don't learn that in politics. You either got to be this side of the aisle or that side of the aisle. We don't learn that in churches. You either got to believe this way or no way. We don't Learn that in education, you got to do it this way. And all these educators somewhere don't allow the educational system to tailor toward the child. They try to tailor the child toward the education. In society, we teach one side, left side, zeros or ones. We teach this binary way. And it's the great leaders that learn not how to change people to their ideologies or tolerate people to keep their own ideologies. It's the people that celebrate them and find a way to integrate their genius into the team that really has the balance. Team.

[Chris Goede]

Yeah, I love that. Now, when I think my takeaway from this is we talk all the time about leading self and the emotional intelligence part of leaders, the EQ side of things, it's not only yourself, which that's where it starts, but then it's also the awareness of others. I think that the higher and the more we can develop our eq, the better the team quality that we have in what John, coming all the way back to what John talked about, being collectively balanced. And so I think as leaders, we need to, again, man, look into, into ourselves first in order to get to this point to where we have this, this dream team. I, I want to also talk about, because this is so you, this statement where John says, a heart that reflects me. Like there's many of these that you align with passion, growth. But I know when it comes to the heart of what we're doing, it's so important to you. How do you, through a interview process, through a courting process of someone, how do you assess the heart of somebody that is coming onto the team that you want to make sure is in agreement and alignment of what you want in the culture and the DNA of Maxwell leadership.

[Mark Cole]

I want to see their response to the things that's important to me. I'm not trying to get their approval. It's my responsibility. I'm not even necessarily trying to get their buy in. I'm trying to get their understanding. Do they understand? One of our values around here, obviously podcast community is our faith. We have a strong faith, but I don't want people with the same faith or any faith around me. Wow. Is my stuff only good if everybody thinks and believes just like me. Boy, that's not much salt and light. I love the diversity of thinking around me. John has really had to push that in because I grew up in a world that everybody needed to look like me, act like me, think like me, believe like me, or you couldn't be me.

[Chris Goede]

I think you've called it we're faith friendly.

[Mark Cole]

That's right.

[Chris Goede]

I've heard you say that before.

[Mark Cole]

And we're faith confident, which means our faith has to work for us. Well, if my faith has to work for me in this setting, then I need to see if people are going to understand that, not embrace it, not even agree with it. But are they going to understand that that's a part of what you're signing up for? Another thing which is much less. Well, no, it's probably as confrontational or contentious at times. And that is an appetite for growth. My dear friends, if you don't have a commitment to grow at Maxwell leadership, you are not going to be comfortable here for long because we expect it, we demand it, we compensate to it. So. And again, I'm talking to our culture champion right here sitting across from me. Don't ever let this change we hire based on people's ability to answer this question. What are you currently leading? Excuse me? Where are you currently growing? And how is it bearing fruit? That's a question I haven't. I haven't interviewed in a long time. There may be a reason. I'm not very.

[Chris Goede]

There is a reason.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah, there you go.

[John Maxwell]

So.

[Mark Cole]

But when I interview, that's always one of my prevailing questions. What are you learning right now and how are you applying it? And man, the people that pause on that, that slow on that, that don't give me anything on that. It is not a yellow flag. It is a red flag. Get that resolved. Because if we don't, this culture is going to be uncomfortable. Secondly, how can you sell a product designed to help somebody else grow if you don't consume it?

[Chris Goede]

That's right.

[Mark Cole]

So the next question I ask is, who's your mentor? Who influences you? If John doesn't fit in that answer at some point, I go, okay, well, who does? And if they're better than John, I'm looking for them, bring them to me. If it's not John, do they even have a passion for mentorship? Because we sell that. And if you don't have a passion for it, you're not going to be able to sell it. Back to an episode we did a couple of weeks ago. If you don't value something, you won't sell it for long.

[Chris Goede]

That's right.

[Mark Cole]

Because it's just a transaction to you, it's good.

[Chris Goede]

John says, then a growth. That enlarges me. This is where leaders get a little bit scared, too, when it comes from surrounding themselves with a team that challenges them to grow that well. First of all, a lot of leaders don't even open that door and allow the team to be able to do that. From your seat. Leading leadership teams for a long time, what does it look, what does it feel like to be led or grown at times through your leadership team? Meaning this. Hey, so I wasn't as good in that area when I came into this meeting as I was when I left. I appreciate you and, and just the, the transparency of, of where you're at or what you're learning. Now back to David Hoyt's comment. You always have an opinion and you come in and you have the data and you have the philosophy and knowledge in your back pocket. But there are times it's like John saying to us, hey, I'm going to come in with an idea, and if we don't up level that idea and you're not adding to it, I'm not inviting you back to that meeting. Right. It's John's ability to sit back. And I know that you do that too, because some of the conversations that we've had over the last couple of years with our leadership team, why is that so important to leaders, to understand, to surround. No matter what your size, the team is your inner circle, as John's talking about, to be able to do that for you personally.

[Mark Cole]

You know, there's a cute phrase out now. John said it in the podcast today. And so I'm going to answer a little bit of this, but I'm going to deflect something back to you, so just get ready.

[Chris Goede]

Okay?

[Mark Cole]

Serving your own notice that I'm getting ready to try to pull something out of you. There's a cute statement that I the first time we started saying I can remember, we said it during COVID Everybody was somewhere and nobody knew where anybody was. Not just because we were quarantined. It was because we lost the way to read people. Everybody, fear started manifesting themselves and people silently quit and we didn't know why and we couldn't find people, they got so disoriented. And so I can remember when John first started saying, you need to listen, learn, and lead. I remember when he first started saying it, I went, oh, wow, I do that. But I learned that I listened to check it off the list so I could hurry up and lead. And I figured out that most of the time when I'm listening to somebody that should be following my direction, I wouldn't listen to learn. I was listening to direct. And I found that as cute as that was, when it's really lived out, it looks very different than the way most People lead, they lead, then they listen to see if people get it. They learn who's not with me, who's for me. It's a loyalty thing. It's not a true hunger to lead better thing. And so when John first started saying, it really struck me. So that is the answer to that. But here's where I want to go with this part of our conversation. That's your tagline on your email signature.

[Chris Goede]

Yeah.

[Mark Cole]

And when I heard John say that today in the podcast, I went, I'm going to come back and I'm going to ask you, why do you put that as your tagline to every email that goes out from your office?

[Chris Goede]

Yeah, I remember when John started using it, it just really spoke to me and made a lot of sense. If I was to sum it up and say collectively, that statement, for me, it's about curiosity. Right. Because the reason is that I want to be curious when I'm listening to my team or a partner or a vendor, a client, doesn't matter, because I don't want to just listen to hear them. I want to be curious then if I get to that. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to learn from that curiosity about a different perspective that I don't see. It's the old beach ball thing, right? They're sitting in the same. We're sitting in the same room. You just have a different lens. And so if I want to always be growing and I want to always be curious and I want to always try to lift the lid of myself and the team around us, then I have to. I got to listen out of curiosity, and then I got to take what I'm hearing and learn from it, from that conversation, from the listening, and then I can lead that situation. Most of the time, my conversations are very intentional about either leading a person or a project somewhere. Well, what better way to get buy in from your team and to get the best overall result for the team, for the organization, is to go through this process. And when he said it, I just have not let go of it. Like, it's just part of my leadership style. And so it's driven with questions, which is part of our DNA, and it's with listening. And then what am I learning? How am I growing? And now let me lead. And it could be in the moment, or it could be taking a little bit of time, taking a couple days because I tend to process things and then coming back. So that's where that came from when I put it on my tagline, because I want to see it every day. I want to do this, and I don't want to. I don't want to push my thoughts or my logic onto somebody else.

[Mark Cole]

So I've got two action points for all of us listening based on what Chris just said. So hang with me right here. I've got two. How has that impacted the way that you lead? Because it's on your signature. So in other words, it's a daily thing that you read. Which is going to come to my action item. How has that impacted your leadership in the listening, the learning, or the leading, or all the above?

[Chris Goede]

Well, what it's done is because I've publicly profess it, it's an accountability tool. Let me give you an example.

[Mark Cole]

That's beautiful.

[Chris Goede]

A couple weeks ago, you, on our monthly vision, you brought in one of our team members that happens to be on my team, and she shared a situation with you. Golly. And if I would not have listened to the core of why it was so important to her, because I could have said no. I could have said, where are the funds? There's no government. Right. Not only did I listen, but then I learned a lot about the system, about the process, about the number of people we could impact. And Mark, you don't even know this, but she said it. You didn't know till she said it, but I took almost 20 grand of your money and I invested in it before we even saw a dollar.

[Mark Cole]

And it's now returned over a half

[Chris Goede]

a million, in case anybody's asking and growing and counting. Then she and I together were able to lead through that thing, where it's going. And it's just been ever since he said that to me, I was like, so that identifies with my style.

[Mark Cole]

Tangible result.

[Chris Goede]

That identifies with my style. Now, I could have easily just. Yeah, that's not going to work. Okay, thanks. And missed out. Now, has it been. Has it. Did that one work out? Sure. It's not about the profit and the return. It's about the amount of people that are being impacted. Because we had a team member that had a different perspective for me of a tribe of people that we could make a difference in. And I would have never, never known that. And so that's. That's how I live that out. And people now. So it's there. People hold me accountable, too.

[Mark Cole]

Yeah. The accountability piece was brilliant. And then the example was brilliant. So I'm turning in my chair to all of you that's viewing the podcast and I'm asking you the question out of listening, learning and leading. Which one do you think needs the most help in your leadership? Which one? And let's go dig into it for the next seven days and let's come back next podcast and I want you to leave me a comment wherever you listen to the podcast, I want you to leave me a comment that says, hey, this week I listened better and this is the result. This week I learned more of what I listened to and this is the result. Or this year I just stepped up and started leading because of what I'd learned and listened to. I want to see it, give us comments, shoot us an email. I want to see that in the next seven days. And then the last question I have for you that I hope is a convicting to you as it was to me when Chris just told me that what's in your tagline, either stated or unstated, what are you wanting people to take away from you every single day? Going back to accountability, what Chris is wanting his team to take away in any of our clients and anyone that he hears that he listens, learns before he leads. What is your tagline? Now that's a penetrating question. I don't always do that, but I just felt really convicted with that. Two things. If you would like to take a step in addition to the homework I just gave you and really invest in yourself this week, I'm really passionate about giving you some things over the course of the next few weeks of the podcast to give you something to take a next step of investing, investing in yourself. This week we want you to invest in the 21 laws of leadership. We have a digital product. It'll make you better and it'll. It'll make your leadership and therefore those around you better. We have a special in there. I think it's literally over a thousand dollars usually. We've deducted it down this week in the spirit of wanting to give you a tangible next step down to $299. You'll find that in the show notes. We did an episode some time ago on how to attract leaders and so we'll put that podcast in there for you just for you to go back and take advantage of that. Very thankful for Karen this week. Karen's one of our longtime. She listens to the podcast often. She listened to the podcast the qualities of an authentic leader. And this is what Karen said. She says what I wish people knew about my leadership is that I love them and I want them to become their best selves and I want them to know they are capable of far more than they believe. Karen goes on and says, I am learning a lot about myself by listening to you guys. I've had the opportunity to put some of what I've learned into practice already. Karen, thank you. That's the point of the podcast. We want to bring you powerful, positive change because everyone deserves to be led well.