A (1:18)

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B (1:56)

You have a colleague who studies very specific material. What is he focused on and what can we learn from that?

C (2:05)

Matthew is. Is a colleague of mine at UAlbany. Absolutely brilliant, great guy. He. He has developed a new technique to study to basically detect the isotopes in. In a material. So. And it's non destructive. So he basically irradiates it with. With neutrons. So basically when you radiate the material with neutrons, you basically throwing neutrons into the nuclei, you're breaking the object, you're making those nuclei radioactive and then they decay. So you watch them decay and you watch the decay rates and then you figure out what element that was and you then know what it decayed into. So you know what it had been before you made it radioactive. And that's bas basically what he's doing. So it's a brilliant technique and works. And so he's been looking at material from purported crash sites and UFO crashes. And this, again, extremely difficult work because of the community we're dealing with has all sorts of beliefs about what this is already before you look at it. And I'll just quote Matthew here. One day I asked him how it was going and what he's found, and he goes, I have analyzed more Earth dirt than I would have ever imagined, basically. And that's one of the problems we're finding here. You know, the UFO community is thrilled that we scientists are involved, but in a lot of ways we ruin everything. We ruin all the fun. And we. Because we find out that most of these things are not that interesting. And, and so most of these material he's analyzed, it's not interesting and clearly not alien. And, and I think that's. That's causing some conflict. You know, we have. The community now is like, well, wait a minute, you guys are saying this isn't, this isn't what we thought it was. And so this isn't evidence. But they want evidence so badly that this is a bit of a.

A (4:20)

But I think this is sort of a reckoning moment, you know, for this community because, you know, what we have to believe is that if there is a truth, we should be able to communicate that truth among believers and non believers. It's the point of truth. It doesn't take sides and it's not partisan.

C (4:41)

The truth is the important part. Right. We want to get to the truth and that means that we've got to get rid of all the stuff that isn't true. And some of that's hard for some people to let go of, but you're going to have to let go of it if you want to get to the truth. Yeah.

A (4:55)

One of the, the most interesting things that many of us, you know, have heard in support of there are UFOs coming from other places is it's made of a material that couldn't have been made right on this planet. It's, it's, it's got properties that we've never seen. It's put together in a way. Right. So even if some of those things, let's say, are harder to decipher, what's the story with angel hair? I thought I had heard everything.

C (5:25)

Angel hair is weird. And it turned out to get weirder the more I looked into it as well. There have been instances where you have had UFOs hovering and they're Basically emitting or, or expelling some kind of fibrous material that then floats down to earth and has been collected by people, sometimes collected and saved. And in fact there's a. One of the biggest sightings happened during a soccer match in Florence. A couple UFOs flew over the field and then hovered, hovered over the field during the soccer match. There were 10,000 witnesses. It was such a dramatic event. The game stopped, the players were watching the UFOs. That's how dramatic it was. And then angel hair was coming down from the UFOs. And, and so this is in a newspaper article and I think in our paper we have a picture from that newspaper article showing a girl holding up some angel hair. And, and a chemist at the time in Italy analyzed that angel hair and found that it contained like porous Kate silica or something like glass basically with some kind of glass. And you know, but the problem is that that stuff was not very carefully collected. It was collected by people at a soccer match and then carried around with them until they could get home. So it could have dirt on it, you know, and so that could be what they were analyzing. So a chemist, Phyllis Budinger, has been, has studied, you know, chemical evidence at UFO landing sites and things like this. And, and angel hair is one of the things that she studied and that's weirder because she's found that angel hair is basically caterpillar silk. Oh, again, my hands are up. I don't know. I, I really wish I had and really more meaningful answers.

A (7:31)

Right. I'm trying to think of a number of solutions that might not be ufo. None of them make a lot of sense. Like why would an adversarial government need to drop caterpillar silk over a football match in 1954 in Florence? But you know, the, if I let my brain kind of dream and imagine, right, there's some sort of, you know, organic material that is somehow related to unidentified aerial phenomenon. Like I can say that it's very

C (8:11)

not clear why this is happening or how it's happening and how the angel hair is emitted by these objects. Our paper, we have a painting made by a person who witnessed this. There was a, these foot long cylinders flew over their house and they had a pond in their property and these cylinders were hovering over the pond and other cylinders came in from other places and they were spinning and spewing out this angel hair which they collected and was found to be the same stuff as caterpillar silk. It's related to it.

A (8:46)

It's unbelievable.

C (8:48)

I don't think anybody knows what to make of it. Right.

B (8:53)

Just circling back to your colleague who, you know, you said was a bit of a downer. Is he finding anything that really is unusual that he can't explain?

C (9:03)

He has found that he had had some material from a purported crash site. And that material he can't make radioactive. It basically shields and absorbs all the radiation he can throw at it. And he. And he had it. He put it in a box with a plutonium source for a week and took it out, and it was not affected by it. So it's really strange. And that's interesting because if I wanted to make radiation shielding, that's exactly what I would do. That's what you would hope for. So a spaceship with radiation shielding, this would be amazing. Radiation shielding, whatever this material is. So he's still studying it, actually, and

B (9:47)

we don't have that capability currently. No, it would be very helpful if we did have it because we could create casing that would then prevent our own nuclear material from causing harm.

C (9:58)

Yeah, it would be great to have some radiation shielding like that material. That's interesting stuff.

B (10:04)

Is it possible to break it down and reverse engineer it or. We don't have that capability.

C (10:09)

You can do it. And he's working on getting more information about it. So he's studying it now. So I think he's hoping to be able to break it down at some point and figure out what it's doing. He has some hypotheses as to what's going on.

B (10:21)

I mean, out of all the things that we're talking about, like, that seems for me the most interesting, like angel hair. I'm like, that's weird.

C (10:28)

It's just weird. Right?

B (10:29)

It's just weird. But not all that practical. But this where it speaks to how a craft might move, it speaks to advancements that we need. Because the idea would be if they're moving around undetected, then they have more sophisticated technology than we do and we would benefit from that. So what do you think about that, Em?

A (10:53)

I'm gonna throw up my hands like Dr. Knuth. I don't know. The first thing I thought when I heard about this angel hair was I thought of the biblical report of manna from heaven, which they think may have been some sort of, you know, kind of high carbohydrate, I believe, kind of stuff that comes off this plant that in theory could sustain you if you didn't have a lot of other nutrients. And so the first thing I thought was, you know, is this some sort of byproduct. Is this some sort of, you know, I. I don't know. The idea is not necessarily, you know, if you want to think impossibly, if you want to like blow the lid off the box, the idea is not what is the purpose of them dropping caterpillar silk, it's what might be going on inside side of a vessel, the byproduct of which might be the mind.

B (11:45)

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A (11:48)

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B (13:03)

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A (13:11)

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B (14:39)

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C (15:40)

Right. Right.

B (15:41)

So it's a byproduct. It's something going on in the craft that could be the exhaust of.

A (15:47)

I'm. I'm just saying that we want, you know. Yes, if there's hoof beats, it's usually horses. So if you see an unidentified flying object and it's throwing, you know, caterpillar silk down. Yeah. The most logical explanation is they want us to receive it and like build a castle with it. I don't know. But what's what often, you know, can can happen. Obviously not as commonly, but it still could happen, is that we're trying to interpret the wrong thing. Right. I Mean, I, I'm sure, Dr. Knuth, you probably have this all the time. You're focusing on one thing, but that actually might not be what's going on. Much like the Epstein files and many wars around the world, right? Like, where are we being distracted? And if we're talking about beings that either live here or come from other, you know, galaxies or star systems, if they have that level of sophistication of travel ability, detection ability, you know, they're, they're probably not going to be as simple minded as we are. That's my guess.

B (16:52)

I think there's a divide between. There's some evidence that we can't quite figure out. There's the scientific work of proving and trying to create an explanation which is, you know, deconstructing material and trying to understand the physical properties of the material, trying to understand propulsion. That then feeds into the evidence. And then there's theory based on, you know, being immersed in enough of this information to ask like, what does it mean? What is the purpose? And that is, of course, the hardest part because we don't have enough of the other two to, to satisfy what

C (17:28)

are they doing, what is their intent and what are they doing? And I think that can be. That's probably also the hardest because if, if they aren't human, then they could be thinking very differently than we are. Right? Very different motivations.

B (17:42)

It does make us think a little bit about the spiritual text that we've seen as clues in a way, like, why would it be about nuclear. Well, why would it be that they're showing up in these particular areas? Why would it be that if the Russians are moving around material and having war games, that that is the signal that they're being drawn to? What is it about Earth that they find so interesting? Do they have a vested interest in the evolution of Earth, the materials, the survival or not of the planet in some way? Are they benevolent or are they, you know, harvesting? Like, these are all, all big ideas. I don't know if, you know, we want to spend a little bit of time just exploring sort of how you think, you know, not necessarily with a concrete proof of any of it.

C (18:34)

The most common thing people will say is, was clearly they, you know, we have some. They've been here a long time. This, sightings like this go back centuries. And so if they've been here a long time, then the argument usually is, well, if they wanted to conquer us and colonize Earth, they would have done it already. Well, maybe, maybe not. You don't actually know the, the Picture I've kind of put together that seems to describe a lot of what's going on is that they could have discovered Earth a long time ago and have bases here where they're basically studying the biology. I mean, we would, we would do the same thing. We would study biology. It wasn't until the middle of the last century, till World War II, really, that humans became powerful enough that we could really wreck the planet. You know, with the nuclear weapons, we could destroy the planet with our pollution, you know, we are destroying the planet. So this became. We became a problem. And if you think of them as having found Earth, you know, Earth, they may have the mindset Earth is their planet, right? And we happen to live here. And. But now humans are a danger to their planet. And so we could end up in a. We could end up in a conflict eventually, if that's the case. So it may not be that they wanted to colonize Earth. They've done it the way they wanted to already. They did so a long time ago. But, but we could be a problem at this point and they could be watching us very closely to make sure that you see what we're doing and to try to dissuade us in some ways or whatever. Congress had noted that with the, with the statement that they had become. UFOs had become more aggressive toward our pilots in war zones. In the last few years, they've been flying at our plan and, and things like that. So Louis Elizondo had mentioned that to me as well. That 2015, they had near daily, inside. Near daily sightings in the Persian Gulf where they were flying sorties into Syria. And in that case, they actually had to fly. They. They would be flying to Syria from the aircraft carrier and they would have UFOs flying at the planes and then dodging them. At last minute, they were taking that to be aggressive maneuvers, which, which is very possibly what's going on. So, so that's kind of the picture that I've kind of put together. They, They've been here a long time, they study Earth, and now we're a bit of a problem. We know. We know we're a problem where we, we recognize that already to some degree.

B (21:24)

So when was that increase in how they were interacting with pilots?

C (21:29)

Those instances were in 2015.

B (21:31)

It's fascinating to think about this being their planet. Where are they? Right. We talked about, you know, potentially that they are here. They're trying to evade larger detection. Where would they actually be?

C (21:49)

The oceans are very poorly explored. Great places to hide, great places to live, actually. So I would, I would guess probably in the Ocean somewhere. And 2/3 of UFO sightings are, you know, related to water. So. And especially with UFOs going into water, coming out of water, they could very well live in the water. I mean, living in an ocean is a great place to live.

A (22:13)

Mammals do it all the time. But we're talking about aliens, right?

C (22:17)

Yeah. So we live on a surface where you have to deal with an atmosphere. And atmospheres of planets can vary dramatically. So you go to Venus, which is just on the edge of the habitable zone, and the atmosphere is 800 degrees Fahrenheit on a, on a normal day. Right. And then you go to Mars, which is further out on the other edge of the habitable zone. And you're looking at something like 100 degrees below zero Fahrenheit. So you've got literally 1000 degree difference in atmospheric temperatures that you would have to deal with going from planet to planet. Now if you go to an ocean, a liquid water, ocean water is very common and oceans seem to be common, so, so you go to a liquid water planet. Well, liquid water is only liquid from 32 degrees Fahrenheit to 212 degrees Fahrenheit. So you've got a limit, more limited range of temperatures and you would have to worry about water pressure, but you can actually descend to a depth where you've got pressures that you, you can deal with. And you're shielded from, you're shielded from radiation, you're shielded from solar flares, cosmic rays, you're shielded from meteorite impacts to some degree.

B (23:35)

Are they living in vessels underneath there? Are they able to breathe?

A (23:39)

I think we have a hard time, you know, picturing things that, like, are not carbon based. Right. Meaning, you know, I, I, I don't know, like, I can make up any number of things. Like there's some detection where they can be, like collapsed into, you know, water molecules. Like, I don't know, I don't know what that means.

C (24:00)

It's been observed that craft go into the water and come out of the water. And those, those are some of the oldest sightings because they're kept in ship for ship's records. Richard Dolan, in his more recent book, has lists of, you know, sightings like this that go back, you know, easily go back 200 years. So whether they live in their ships underwater, which you could easily do, or are there cities down there, are they from there? I mean, did they evolve underwater and they're just another intelligent species on this planet that we Even, even that's been staying away from us. That's possible too.

A (24:37)

Can you talk a little bit about what role you think the government plays in the information that we're allowed to have, the information that we should have and talk a little bit about this age of disclosure and some of the acknowledgement that there is research and in many cases compelling evidence that has been kept from the public.

C (25:03)

Our governments have been interested in these things since the 1940s. The Scandinavian sightings go back, you know, the ones that captured their attention go back to the 1930s actually. But Roswell, the Roswell crash happened in 47 along with another crash that happened two weeks later, only about 100 miles away. So you, you have, and you actually have a spike of sightings there that goes up from an average of seven sightings in the US per day and during that week jumps up to about 250 sightings per day across the country. Now is this because of Kenneth Arnold having seen these and being in the paper? Very possibly. But some of these sightings are very compelling with landings and hundreds of people witnessing them. And so it's interesting something interesting was going on and whether that just captured our attention or was actually an increase of activity, I don't think you would, I mean you'd have to have more information to be able to study that. But that seems to be when our government became interested in this. So there, and there, there has to be some people who have known that these things were non human craft for a long time. Herman Oberth, who's a rocketry pioneer, he was the mentor to Werner von Braun, he gave a talk in I think 1954 on UFOs and in his talk he mentions that he had seen over 50 instances of radar data showing that these things are traveling at speeds of. He gave a speed of 19 kilometers a second, which is about close to 40,000 miles an hour, which is close to the speeds we've estimated, I estimated in the paper I wrote for the, the Tic Tac UAP in the Nimitz case. So 40,000 to be in orbit you have to be, I mean the space station is going about 17,000 miles an hour and, and I think on the way to the moon, I think the top speed that are Artemis was going was something like 25,000 miles an hour on that order. So, so UFOs go faster than Artemis went. Right. And in fact UFOs are basically have been measured to go the speeds of the new Horizon probe that we sent to Pluto. That's going about 40,000 miles an hour. And that's been known since the 1950s. So Herman Oberth, who's mentor to Werner von Braun and working on our rocket program, knew this in the 1950s and he couldn't have been the only person who had access to that data. So somebody's known this for a long time and they covered it up for whatever reason, you know, do we want. And, and there's probably many reasons at this point for covering it up, worrying about shocking the public, because the public in 1947 wouldn't have been ready for an idea like that. And you're just out of World War II. And now we have another bigger problem. Right. There are aliens. We're more advanced than any of us. You don't. Yeah, Americans, Nobody would have been ready for that.

A (28:26)

Yeah, I think the question is, are Americans ready now?

C (28:30)

I don't think anybody's ready for this really. I think it's going to shock things in a lot of different ways that are rather unpredictable. It's going to be a lot like Covid. It's going to hit several institutions in unpredictable ways and it just will end up breaking lots of things. And I think it'll be rather, rather disruptive.

B (28:53)

Well, there's no unifying force. There's no way that we understand how to interact. We don't know the motives. You know, the virus, at least you understand its motive is to replicate and expand.

C (29:06)

Yeah, this is a problem. I mean, and the question is, what are they going to discover what we don't know, what's all known. And my, my guess at this point in talking to people on the inside, you know, we're able to share certain things. I don't think we know that much. And I don't think they're going to be able to answer many of the same questions you've asked me. I don't think that's actually known. I asked, I asked Lou Elizondo at one point we had a meaning of scientists with some government people and one of the questions was how many non human craft are operating in on Earth at any given time. It's rough number, right? Is it 10? Is it 100? A thousand? 10,000? Couldn't answer that. I don't think they know. So they don't, they don't know the simplest answers, you know, the things that you would want to know. And I think that's going to be a problem with disclosure, is that it's going to raise so many questions that nobody has the answer to, which is why scientists should have been involved in this, in the first place, there's been

B (30:09)

a lot of conversation about 3i Atlas we got to speak with Avi Loeb. What is your perspective on the peculiarity of that particular object?

C (30:20)

We ought to be studying these things like crazy. This is an interstellar object. Let's get all the data we can on it. No astronomers to just say, well, it's a comet. Well, you don't know it's a comet. We don't. And what's this comet like? And clearly it's different. There's a lot of differences. And it's a strange thing. He's absolutely right about that. There's a lot of. There's several anomalies and we should be following these as close as we can. They should be studied carefully.

B (30:47)

One of the key anomalies is that it only has 4% water vapor on its return from around the sun, which is far too little.

C (30:57)

Exactly. It's not a comet. Clearly not a comet. Comets are big, dirty snowballs. There ought to be nickel and iron, something, something. There was a process at some point that was able to separate nickel from iron, which is hard to do. So why is that the case? Yeah, these, these are all questions that need to be answered. I totally agree with him.

B (31:17)

Yeah. It says here that it contains nickel but no iron, which is deeply strange because iron and nickel occur together in nature, which for many people we don't know, that are adjacent on the periodic table and separating them requires a very difficult process. So you're thinking, did that happen naturally?

C (31:35)

It's hard to imagine it happening naturally. So now you're, now you're stuck in the place where he goes, where, you know, maybe it's not a natural object. And that's.

B (31:45)

And then if it's not a natural object, it has some form of external influence. You're like, well, let's not jump to conclusions. But what is that? Yeah, the other thing that's peculiar for anyone who hasn't been following is that it both has a tail and an anti tail simultaneously. What does that mean?

C (32:05)

So comets typically have tails. So this is material being blown off by the solar winds. And there's actually two tails. There's an ion tail having to do with the charged particles going one way and then the uncharged particles going a different way. So, so, but that's what we call the. Generally the tail. Now an anti tail goes out ahead of the object, which comets don't have anti tails. So why is there an anti tail? That's not obvious why you would have that.

B (32:34)

Do we See any other objects that have anti tails? Like where does our understanding of an anti tail come from?

C (32:40)

I don't think there are other objects with anti tails. I've not heard of them before.

B (32:44)

So I think there's a lot of people who are like, those three things are peculiar. And yet the people who are the best and most capable of trying to understand those peculiarities seem uninterested in exploring them.

A (32:59)

It very well could be that it's something that we're seeing for the first time. That doesn't mean that. I mean, by definition the word alien means other. Right? It's something that's foreign.

C (33:12)

I don't jump to the conclusion that it's an alien craft either. But it's an interesting object that's clearly different than things we have in our solar system. So we should be studying it.

A (33:22)

I wonder if you can speak just a little bit about how you approach things like conversations around remote viewing, conversations around telepathy. Right. Where we're both fans and you know, I'm very, very skeptical of some of the claims that many people are taking from the telepathy tape. What's your sort of perspective in how in general we need to be having conversations about things like remote viewing or telepathy?

C (33:51)

These are things that just haven't been studied carefully. They've been studied to some degree and the data is sometimes interesting. Right? But it isn't believed by the general scientific community. It's dismissed by the general scientific community because it doesn't fit into their worldview, which is, I think, a problem because there's lots of things we don't understand and, and we should be studying these things now. It doesn't matter that every. It doesn't mean that every scientist needs to study them. It means that somebody should be studying them and that church person should be left alone and not made fun of and allowed to study them. I think that's what, what I mean by that. I mean take, take, take something that's not so different. And especially with the. In considering telepathy with the nonverbal autistic kids. Savantism, savantism is strange. It's well documented, well understood, and it's strange. And I've heard people say the craziest scientists say the craziest things about them, perhaps. I've heard this said many times by non people who aren't in biology. There could be a gene for playing piano. I'm like, how the hell is there a gene? When did that evolve on the African savannah, as people love to say Right. Who evolved a gene for playing piano? Nobody. That did not happen. So now how. Now you have to explain this or you have some other strange cases. There's a, there was a what? A 20 year old kid from Australia. I believe he had taken a course in elementary, you know, a first year course in Chinese. At one point gets into a car accident, in a coma, comes out of the coma, unable to speak English, can only speak Chinese, and he's better than year one Chinese. So now where does this come from? You know, how do you explain this? This is tough. These are tough things and I think they need to be studied. That's what I think about them. Study it. Try it. Remote viewing. I actually tried that myself. And then that's interesting because there are times when it works.

B (36:12)

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A (36:15)

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C (38:50)

How do I know it works? Because seeing is believing. If you do it and you see it in your mind and then you see the picture you were supposed to view and it's the same thing, then I know it works sometimes it doesn't work all the time. And it's really, actually really interesting because I was so I had this app on my phone, I was doing the remote viewing app and when I just was playing around with it, just to start, I thought, well, let's just see if this works. I'm just going to try it, right? Why not? And I could get it right two thirds of the time where 50 where it should have been. A 50. 50?

A (39:24)

Yeah, that's 66 and 2/3%. That is more than 50.

C (39:28)

It's more than 50, but it's not really that significant, right? So. But I was doing it pretty consistently and I thought again, thought of my colleague Matthew. I thought, okay, I got to get the statistics up so then I can prove to Matthew, then I can show Matthew and he'll believe me, right? Because there were times when I knew that I was seeing what I was supposed to be seeing. And so I knew that it worked just because I had experienced it. But I couldn't prove it to him. So I wanted to get the statistics up. So once I had that motivation to get the statistics up, my ability dropped. I mean Plummeted, plummeted. I went from getting 2 out of 3 right to getting 3 out of 14 right, more statistically significant in the wrong direction. And I thought, this is better evidence that it's a real phenomena, because when I'm. When I'm trying to do it, I'm failing. And then I thought, and that makes it really hard to study, because if you've got somebody who's trying to do it, you're going to get more failure. So now how do you study something like that? I don't have a good answer for that.

A (40:34)

Can you explain to people who might not understand why that's proof that there is a phenomenon when something goes in a statistically significant direction, in the opposite direction than you want, when you put effort in what might be going on. I mean, I have my own theories, but go ahead.

C (40:49)

Neuroscience wise, I don't know what's going on. Well, I really don't know what's going on. Physics wise, I don't know how that's possible. And in fact, I doubt that I'm remote viewing a JPEG file, JPEG encoded file on a computer. I don't think that's what's happening at all. I think it's actually more like seeing my phone in the future. The way the app works is you get a blank screen, you get a file number which corresponds to a photograph that you're supposed to be remote viewing. And then once you've drawn a picture or taking notes or whatever you're doing to help remind yourself what you're seeing, it then presents two photographs. One is the target and one's the non target. So you have a 50, 50 chance of guessing which one. And you actually, the app actually has a slider, so you can say, I'm pretty sure it was this, or you can change your how sure you are. So. So at the core, at the root though, there's a 50, 50 chance of getting it right. So getting it 2 out of 3 times is. Is clearly better than 50, 50. But getting it wrong, getting it right only 3 out of 14 times is far below what you would expect from just guessing.

A (42:05)

So you just presented the possibility that you are somehow accessing an image from the future. That's astounding. Right? Like, that's a very powerful notion. And the reason that, you know, one could explain for when you try harder, that you do worse, is that whatever seems to be involved, from all of the variety of people we've spoken to, whatever seems to be involved in this aspect of extrasensory perception, or of seeing in a way. Right. That is beyond the way that we see with our eyeballs. Right. The notion being that there's some sort of passive state, some dropping in state, some meditative state. Right. A lot of people use these states to access this information that when we are not actively cognitively working on it, there's a place that we drop into that makes us more receptive to information that exists on that kind of energetic plane.

C (43:08)

Yeah, that's not a bad theory. And. And I think I'm seeing it in the future because there have been times when I've actually drawn both images in the proper order, the target and the non target. I've done that several times. And in fact, I did an experiment with my daughter. We both did it at the same time. I drew the target and she drew the non target.

A (43:28)

I have to try this. I need to try this.

B (43:31)

We should absolutely try it. But also, can we explore this notion of seeing into the future? In this scenario, the future exists and you're just hopping forward in your mind's eye.

C (43:46)

I have no idea how that would work. I mean, I don't. As a physicist, this is a tough thing to actually say. Right. But I mean, but this is what. That's the only way I can explain what I was drawing and seeing in my mind when I was doing it. Right. I saw what was presented on the phone in the proper order. So I think I have an easier time believing that I'm somehow seeing my phone in the future, seeing the image in the future. Then I have an easier time believing that than I do believing that I have some knowledge of the variable states in a computer program that's going to present those images to me.

A (44:26)

It's like. Which is less unbelievable.

C (44:29)

Which is less unbelievable. And seeing in the future to me feels a little less unbelievable. But maybe it's not. I don't know. That's it.

B (44:37)

I think there's also an interesting complication here that it's being presented by a computer versus, you know, the examples of remote viewing that we've heard where there have been military psychics and intuitives using that to solve crime or to gather intel. That was sort of before the computer era. And what they were doing is trying to tap into the field or consciousness of an individual or an organization and get data. To think that the computer is going to send something and what is the variable chance of that digital code seems like a harder thing. If we're imagining that consciousness exists on multiple planes, like the computer consciousness seems harder to crack.

C (45:23)

Yeah, I would have a hard time imagining how that's going to work. How, how am I viewing, how am I able to get information about the variable states inside a computer? I mean, these are the amount of charge on certain transistors inside a computer that has billions of transistors. That would be strange. Yeah.

A (45:41)

No, the most logical explanation as we're speaking to a physics professor is that time is not linear and there are ways to access time in the future and bring that information back to the present. That's the most logical explanation, which is

C (45:58)

hard because I don't know how that would work, but it still feels. It feels easier.

A (46:03)

Yeah. Why do you believe what has happened in your life that makes you believe that there's something beyond the concrete reality of our existence that we are programmed to invest in, as Jeff Kripal would call it.

C (46:24)

I had a flip. I was flipped at one point where we had an experience where it just broke everything.

A (46:34)

Oh.

C (46:34)

I was going to bed very late. My son Henry was almost two years old. He could walk and talk a little bit, right. We took the side off his crib and lowered it so he could get in and out of bed. But this meant we had to put up a gate by his door so he couldn't get out in the middle of night and hurt himself. And so we had a gate by the door and he would sometimes stand by the gate. But he's, you know, 2 years old, so he's like this. Right. Looking through the gate itself. So I was going to bed very late one night, and I'll give you all the caveats. I'm going from a brightly lit room to a dim hallway. And it's 2am I'm half asleep. I'm tired, and I'm very tired. And I'm coming down the hall and I see who I thought was Henry standing at the gate. And. And as I get closer, I realize this is not a two year old boy. It's a five year old boy. The kid is a good, you know, chest and shoulders above the gate.

A (47:36)

Do you have another child in the home?

C (47:38)

Nope, just one. Just at the time it was just my son Henry. And so it's just him. He's. He's supposed to be in bed. In his room is standing this boy, a five year old boy. I get. I am confused and worried. And I come up to him. I'm like, henry, is that you? What are you doing, Henry? And the kid wasn't looking at me, was kind of looking off to the side. And I got across the hallway from Him. I mean, how wide's the hallway? It's like four feet, right? So I'm literally four feet away from this kid. And it's clearly not my son. He's a five year old boy, he has black hair, he's wearing a white shirt with long sleeves. He's looking, he was looking off to the left. And I was like, Henry is. And by this time I'm scared because I'm like, I don't know what's happening. So I've got my arms crossed like a defensive position and I leaned up against the wall like, Henry, is that you? Are you all right? And the boy looks at me and he looks, his eyes are wide. He looks scared. The boy is scared and he looks at me and I think that made me feel more scared. He looks at me and he's just scared and doesn't say anything. But he, he made, did the weirdest maneuver. He did this. He had. His was holding on to the gate and his. And he very slowly let go of the gate. I think in retrospect, I think he was trying not to make a sudden movement. And then he just backs into the shadows with his hands like that, right? And he backs into the shadows. And I'm just like, all right. Then the parent kicks in, the father kicks in. There's a stranger in my kid's bedroom. The whole game changes, right? And I was like, who is this kid? And I go running at the door. I literally jump over the gate ready to grab a five year old. And there's no one there. There's nobody there. I look around the room, I check on Henry. Henry's asleep in bed. He tucked in fine. I look everywhere. I look under the bed, I look in the drawers of the dresser, I'm looking through the closet. There's nobody in this room. And then I'm like, look, Kevin, it is 2:00am you need to get your ass to bed. You're half asleep. You're hallucinating. Just go to bed, Everything's fine. So I check on Henry again. He's fine. I go leave the room and just go next door to the bathroom. The bathroom's adjacent to it.

A (50:05)

I would have already burnt the house down with everyone in it. I would have been like, this incarnation of our existence is over.

C (50:13)

I just convinced myself I had hallucinated, right? I'm just dreaming while awake, that's all. So I go next door to the bathroom and I'm brushing my teeth and I hear, all of a sudden Henry starts shouting, mommy, Daddy, help, Help. And I Like, run out of the bathroom, jump over the gate again for the second time. Henry, what's wrong? And he's sitting up in bed. He's very upset. He's crying. Like, what's wrong? He goes, daddy, there's someone in my room.

A (50:39)

Nope.

C (50:41)

And I was. And at first I got worried, and I was like, no, no, no, no. There's no one in the room. You checked. You hallucinated. And I said to Henry. I said to Henry, it wasn't. There's nobody in the room. It was me. I was here just a few minutes ago, and I checked on you. That was me. And he goes, no, Daddy, it wasn't you. It was a boy. There's a boy in my room. No, you can't. You can't say that. That is not cool. That is very uncool. And, yeah, there's a boy in my room. And I. And then I'm scared. I'm like, now I don't know what's going on.

A (51:14)

I'm still scared. And it didn't happen to me.

C (51:17)

And. And I said, did he hurt you? No, he didn't hurt me. And I said, well, why are you upset? He goes, I don't know. There's a boy in my room. I said, what was he doing? And he goes, standing. I said, where was he standing? By the door. And I was like, well, that's where I saw him standing, too. I saw a boy standing there, too, just three minutes ago.

A (51:39)

And.

C (51:39)

And I. So I was like, all right. Do you want me to sleep in here with you tonight? He goes, yes, please. So I went down the hall to get a. We had an inflated air mattress in case he needed someone to sleep in there with him. So I brought the air mattress back, laid it next to his bed. I lay down on it. And he's lying down, and I'm kind of rubbing his back, and he's getting all drowsy eyed, and all of a sudden his brow furrows a bit, and he goes, there he is, Daddy. He's right behind you. And I roll over and there's no one there. And I roll back and I said, henry, I don't see anybody. And he goes, daddy, I don't know. He was. It's like before he was there and then he wasn't there. And it was like. It's like that. That's it. We're out of here. I'm done.

A (52:20)

Do you still live in that house?

C (52:22)

No, not anymore.

A (52:23)

God bless it.

C (52:25)

So I took him next door to our bedroom, put him in our bed. And my wife roused a bit. I said. She goes, why are you in here with Henry? And I said, he's sleeping in here with us tonight, and I don't want to talk about it till the morning. That was it. And. And he was up before we. I was. And so she asked him what happened and he told her. And. And. And then I woke, then she asked me about. And I told her what happened. Yeah.

A (52:46)

And then she divorced you and burned the house down?

C (52:49)

No, she did it.

B (52:51)

But what was. What did she say?

C (52:53)

We eventually moved. I mean, she was kind of. Kind of freaked out by it. And she had two people telling her the same story. And it was the. And that's what broke me, was the fact that he saw the same thing. And now what do you. What do you do? And I did. I told some of my colleagues in the physics department about it because I was upset. The last thing I want is attention about this. That's certainly not that. I was worried because now in my mind, a person can just appear in my son's bedroom at any time. How do you deal with that? What. How do I know that he's safe at any given moment? That was what I worried about. I didn't. I did not sleep for, like, two years. I literally would just stay up all night and check on him, and then I would go to sleep. I would teach afternoon classes, and I would just sleep in the morning and go to my classes.

B (53:43)

Did you ever see the child again?

C (53:45)

No.

B (53:46)

And your son never saw him?

C (53:48)

No.

A (53:49)

Did your son grow up to look like that? I mean, I can't even ask it without it making me cry. Was it your son in the future?

C (53:56)

He didn't look exactly like that kid. No. I don't know who that kid was. And I. And I sometimes worry about that. I'm like, if. Is that a person? Is that. And what is their life like? What happened? What happened to them? Because he was clearly scared.

B (54:12)

Was the clothing of the child that you saw, modern clothing, did it feel of this time period?

C (54:17)

It didn't look modern. It looked different, but I don't think it was necessarily old either. It was just different.

A (54:24)

Are you comfortable with saying, I'm a physicist and I saw a ghost?

C (54:30)

I don't say that because I don't know what the hell a ghost is. So I can't really say it was a ghost. I can tell you what happened, and I'm comfortable telling people what happened because it happened and. And I had to deal with it.

A (54:42)

That's really important. Nuance, you know, what you know is that something happened. You don't. You don't know how to explain it. Right. But the. And we could have. If your son had not reported what he reported, we could have very easily said you had, let's say, a first episode of a hallucinatory, you know, sleepwalking experience.

C (55:07)

I totally convinced myself of that. By the time I went to the bathroom, I was like, I am clearly hallucinating. Just go to bed.

A (55:14)

Right. And even if it's never happened to you, that could have been a late adult onset, you know, of a pattern that we very rarely see. Right. So these are all the, like, impossible, impossible, impossible things. But the fact is you now have had a human experience that no one is allowed to tell you did not happen because you heard your son report that you experienced it. Could it be that some of the details have morphed? Yes, but we're opening a door right, to this kind of possibility.

C (55:48)

I took notes in my journal about it right away because I didn't want it to morph, but it was. Yeah, it was. It was upsetting. I mean, it's an upsetting thing to have to worry about this and, you know, make the joke. Who are you going to call? Seriously? There's nobody that you can talk to about it, and there's nobody you can help? So you're. It's a very helpless feeling, a very worrisome thing. Oh, it gave me a lot of sympathy for people who have had experiences like. Or claim to have had experiences like this. You know, both in. Both with respect to what you might call ghosts or even the alien abduction business. I have a lot of sympathy for those people because there's no one who can help you. And that's. That's worrisome.

B (56:32)

How did it change your outlook about exploring phenomenon outside of the physical realm?

C (56:39)

Well, because it broke my worldview. I was, you know, I talked to some of my physicist friends and I said, you know, my colleagues at the department, I said, all right, this happened, like, last night. What do I do? What do I. What do you think? What do you think happened? What do you think this is? And. And none of them had any answers to it. And I think it. It highlighted to me that I don't know much about the physical world as I thought I did. It's a hard thing to admit. I mean, I've been a physicist for 30 years, and I would have hoped I. I had. Up until that point, I had thought I had a pretty good handle on how things worked until that happened and then it was like, all right, clearly I don't know anything. So when I first moved into the house, I had, we had, were able, we lifted, we rented the top floor of the house and we had access to the attic. And so we were putting boxes in the attic when we first, the first day we moved in. And I remember the first time I walked into the attic, I had this cold shiver and I thought, there's a five year old boy who lives here. That pop thought came into my head and I was like, oh, Kevin, don't do that to yourself. You're going to scare yourself. That's stupid. I chastised myself and I hated going up in the attic because I always felt like I was being watched and I didn't like the attic. And so if my wife wanted me to get something out of a box from the attic, I wouldn't put the box back in the attic. I just left it on the stairs. And if after about nine months we had a, there was a whole, the stairs had boxes and she one day discovered that she saw the boxes and I didn't want to admit that I was afraid of the attic. So I, she goes, why are all these boxes there? And I, I lied. I told her that there was. I saw a bat in the attic. And so. Oh yeah, okay, don't go in the attic. I'm like, yes, I won't go in the attic. It's perfect. Wow. Yeah. So I had a weird feeling about the attic. But that's the only relation, you know, the five year old boy in the attic, was he related to the five year old boy I saw there? Was that why I hallucinated him? But I didn't hallucinate him. So it's hard to get your head around. And I had somebody suggest, well, maybe it's a shared hallucination. I was like, but that's not a thing either. That's not. That's a whole other phenomena that we also don't believe. So it's a tough one.

A (58:55)

I don't know.

C (58:56)

So I asked my landlord because I knew my landlord had lived up there for some time. And I Finally, it was 10 years later, I emailed him and asked him, did you ever. We had some strange experiences in that house. Did you have anything strange happen? And he said that he was painting once when between tenants and you know, the place is all cleared out, so he's just painting and he was time to leave and lock the place up, but he couldn't find his keys and he looked all over the house. There was, the keys are not in the house. And he would have left them on the kitchen counter and they weren't there. And so he looked, he was looking and looking and couldn't find them. And then finally thought, he said he had a weird thought that he should check the attic. And he hadn't been up in the attic, but he decided he would check the attic. So he went upstairs to the attic, opened the attic door, and the keys were there on a box right in front of the door. And he said that happened twice. That's what he told me about.

B (59:56)

What do you make of it now? Like you've had a while to reflect on this. I don't know how long ago this was. This is at least, however, how many years?

C (60:04)

Well, he was 2, he's 7, he's 18 now. So it's 16 years ago.

B (60:09)

So it's 16 years. You've explored a lot of the unknown. You. I think the cultural conversation about extrasensory has changed. What do you take from that experience now? What do you think actually happened?

C (60:23)

I don't know what happened. And, and, and when I do think about it, I think I worry more about the boy than I do anything. Because if he was a real person in some sense, in any sense, or a real consciousness, then I worry about him. I mean, he was clearly scared.

A (60:39)

Maybe he was scared by a grown ass man in his room.

C (60:44)

Exactly. I mean, he, he could have appeared. I mean, what if, what if he's even maybe dreaming, lucid dreaming, and he appears in a strange room and then this man approaches him, calls him Henry and then, you know, and then jumps into the room at him? I mean, for the kid, it could have been terrifying. And I worry, I think I worry more about that now than I do somebody disappearing in the house. But, but my son also is now 18 and he's not a 2 year old baby anymore. So that's different too.

B (61:13)

He can see his own ghosts and manage them?

A (61:15)

No, but I think it's interesting how much of the emotional content remains of that kind of experience. Because the fact is these experiences, they don't just exist on a physical plane, they exist on some energetic emotional plane as well. Some imprint was made on you from this experience.

C (61:38)

And I think that's why I'm more sympathetic to people who have had experiences like that. I listen to them and I'm. Do I always believe them? No, not always. It's sometimes really hard to believe, but who am I to say? I mean, I've had that weird thing happen to Me so sure. Maybe something weird happened to them. I think that a little more acceptance. We could all do with a little more acceptance. I think we might learn something.

A (62:07)

Well said. Dr. Kevin Knuth. Thank you so much for being here, for sharing so, so openly. This was really, really fun, and we just really appreciate you so much and your time today.

C (62:20)

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it.

B (62:26)

What was happening for him in that house parallels what could be happening here on Earth. Humans have moved in to a house that has already been occupied, and the real residents are hiding in the shadows, popping out, occasionally being annoyed by the new occupants who are kind of wrecking the place, making a lot of noise. And every now and again, they need a shakeup. And that's basically what happened with him in his house. That kid already lived there.

A (63:00)

I mean, I.

B (63:01)

They had no business moving in. They needed to have a ceremony to send him back and help him transition. He was a little stuck.

A (63:09)

You know why this planet that we live on is mostly water? Because that's where the aliens live. And here we saunter out of the ocean by our own independent process of evolution, and we decide to destroy the whole planet because we want faster AI computing.

B (63:32)

Also, maybe we got kicked out of the ocean. We didn't saunter out. There wasn't room for all of us in the ocean.

A (63:39)

We got kicked out of the ocean. Hence, tadpoles. We're basically, we are the tadpole of the living beings of this planet.

B (63:49)

Maybe the next phase of evolution for humanity is to go back into the oceans.

A (63:54)

Whatever's in there can travel at speeds that we cannot calculate. Their hovercraft seem to emanate radiation, and they can both stop and start cars, but only if they're not diesel.

B (64:10)

Doesn't the radiation from their crafts that live underwater affect the animals? Like, how did they not sunburn a whale?

A (64:19)

How do they not sunburn a whale? I mean, you could ask many versions of that, but I was thinking about, I'm going to loop all the way back. I'm going to loop back to cattle mutilation that he and his classmates had witnessed. And a professor was like, oh, yeah, it was probably the aliens. A professor of physics. And he said, the guy left the room and they laughed. They just laughed their butts off, as I believe what he said. Because the thought that a physics professor would say, oh, yeah, cattle mutilations happen. Yeah, it happens all the time. It's likely aliens. And they laugh this guy out of the room. So what happens with Cattle mutilations. And I have done some independent investigating. The way that these cattle are mutilated, it is precise, surgical level, serration. There are organs removed with no other damage to surrounding organs. It's often the removal of the tongue and like the gonads. Do you remember what happened when we were in the backyard and there was a collection of animal organs? You know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna categorize that as falling under the impossible. Because what I said is there is no blood. There is no evidence of any animal being killed here. Even if the animal were killed elsewhere, what kind of predator could carve out organs perfectly and transport them by beak? Right. I'm thinking they're flying like a. Some sophisticated falcon. And then they're going to place organs in close proximity to where other animals hang out. Like the dogs and the deer that hang out in the neighborhood. What did that. So I'm talking about cattle mutilations because these are things that, like, we want to be like. I don't know. But I'm bringing it all the way back.

B (66:34)

This is a first for us on mbb, but I think what we should really be focused on is, was who cleaned up those organs.

A (66:44)

We have a photo of those organs, which I do think we may need to offer on Substack. You. You cleaned up the organs. That was an impossibly unbelievable episode. So check us out over on Substack for not only the organs, but so much more. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

B (67:02)

It's Maya Bialix.

A (67:04)

Breakdown.

C (67:04)

She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. And now she's going to break down.

A (67:12)

It's a breakdown.

C (67:13)

She's going to break it down. The right window treatments change everything.

A (67:21)

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