Re-Air: Raven-Symoné & Miranda Pearman-Maday. Feel Better In Your Skin

Summary

Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown
Episode: Re-Air: Raven-Symoné & Miranda Pearman-Maday – “Feel Better In Your Skin”
Originally aired: June 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In celebration of both Pride Month and PTSD Awareness Month, Mayim and Jonathan revisit an open, heartfelt conversation with actor and television icon Raven-Symoné and her wife, writer and birth doula Miranda Pearman-Maday. The episode delves into the complex intersections between mental health, identity, trauma, somatic therapies, and the lifelong journey toward authenticity—especially through the lens of those who’ve grown up in the glare of public and industry scrutiny. Through stories of love, coping, shadow work, and breaking free from labels, the guests offer wisdom and hope for anyone seeking to feel more comfortable in their skin.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Growing Up in the Public Eye: Child Stardom and Identity

• Raven’s Early Career & Lasting Impact

  • Began modeling at 16 months and joined The Cosby Show at age 3; stayed working almost non-stop through to adulthood.
  • Reflection: “I don’t really have anything to compare it to…this is all I have ever known.” (Raven-Symoné, 04:26)
  • Brief hiatus in her 20s: “It probably equaled like a year and a half of doing nothing…I’ve always been doing something…[then] I went to school.” (Raven-Symoné, 07:38)

• The Double-Edged Sword of Fame

  • Raven and Mayim discuss “disappearing” through slouching, dressing down, or even gaining weight, as a way to gain some anonymity or self-protection (17:01).
  • Being recognized can lead to hypervigilance—a sense of constantly reading rooms, shifting identities, and people-pleasing as a survival tool.

Unpacking Labels: Gender, Sexuality, and Self-Expression

• Protective Power of Sexuality

  • Raven on performing femininity for public image vs. feeling at home with masculine expression in private: “I knew what was up but I knew that the mask was necessary because there was a brand being built…” (Raven-Symoné, 23:47)
  • “Miranda actually has been the only person in my life who has made me feel super comfortable to be me on a morning, noon and night basis…I’m learning how to do that more and more when the camera is on, and that’s hard.” (Raven-Symoné, 23:47)

• Resistance to Labels

  • Miranda: “So many people would ask me in my life, ‘Oh, okay, so you’re gay now?’…it never felt necessary for me.” (Miranda, 34:11)
  • Raven: “That was one of the things I said a few years ago…that ran rampant on the internet: Raven doesn’t want to be labeled…” (Raven-Symoné, 38:50)
  • Both emphasize the helpfulness and limitations of labels—they help until they don’t.

• Explaining Terms and Community Dynamics

  • Raven breaks down the difference between gender expression and sexual orientation (37:52).
  • She shares candidly about experiencing and navigating stereotypes and labels within the Black and LGBTQ+ communities, emphasizing her own experience is not universal (39:44).

Mental Health: Coping Mechanisms, Therapy, and Healing

• Impact of Fame on Wellbeing

  • All discuss how the industry amplifies people-pleasing and emotional scanning: “Mental health doesn’t care how much money you have…we are all kind of equal opportunity humans on this planet.” (Mayim, 19:40)
  • The need to “fix” or manage the emotional weather in their homes (and on set) is a survival skill turned hindrance in adult relationships.

• Therapy Journeys: Somatic, Shadow, and Energy Work

  • Miranda has had therapy since childhood, but only recently found somatic therapy—using the body, not just intellect—to process emotions. She’s found this approach especially effective for releasing tension stuck in the body (59:39).
  • Raven describes her work with therapists and energy healers, her experience with depression and PTSD, and why she’s now focused on “shadow work”: “I’m starting…to realize my own personal power and energy grids…not really touching my anger at all and not realizing I have anger because it was passive…” (Raven-Symoné, 62:26)
  • Mayim and Jonathan discuss their own struggles with anger, trust, and the difficulty of identifying and communicating their needs after growing up as child actors.

Love, Relationships, and Realness

• How Raven & Miranda Met

  • Though both grew up around the Warner Brothers lot, they actually connected at a karaoke night in West Hollywood. Miranda describes feeling unusually “safe” with Raven immediately (25:14).

• Coming Out, Firsts, and Finding “Your Person”

  • Both share about former relationships and how being together felt truly authentic—“I had this real…aha moment where I was like, wow, I might forever be in a lesbian relationship…because this is my person.” (Miranda, 29:54)
  • Raven on coming out and honoring her true self: “There was a moment…let’s just say I threw up and my body was not happy…I was like, no more guys, bye. And then I just stopped and honored myself a little bit more.” (Raven-Symoné, 32:39)

• Breakups, Reunions, and Growth

  • The couple recounts a pivotal breakup and reunion, underscoring how real intimacy challenges old protective patterns and sparks self-growth (53:04). “I ran like a little coward, and now I’m back with my tail between my legs hoping she forgives me for that moment…” (Raven-Symoné, 53:04)

Universality of Healing and Self-Discovery

• Defense Mechanisms: Their Usefulness and Limits

  • Mayim and Miranda note how old coping skills—whether being super “people-pleaser” or using food as comfort—work until they don’t: “That defense mechanism, thank you, you were keeping me safe…But then there became a point in time where it no longer served.” (Miranda, 44:52)

• Feeling Seen & Being Vulnerable

  • Conversation affirms how, no matter how different their backgrounds, they share similar struggles with trust, vulnerability, and seeking safe spaces, making the discussion deeply relatable.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Growing Up Famous

  • "I think that growing up in the industry from the age of sixteen months to thirty six years old leaves an interesting trail of breadcrumbs that can be used in a positive light for others…when it comes to me personally, I’m dealing with that through my therapist, thank you very much."
    —Raven-Symoné, 04:26

• On Labels and Self-Expression

  • “I liked girls and I liked guys at the time and I dressed like a boy and I dressed like a girl… I didn’t have a label for myself… I got married and I was like, yeah, I’m in a lesbian relationship, and somebody was like, ‘Oh, you’re labeling yourself now?’ I said, ‘Yeah, for you, because you can’t think outside the box. I’m cool with it.’”
    —Raven-Symoné, 38:53

• On Coping Mechanisms and Self-Protection

  • “My gay self really stayed in a box and protected the true me, so then when it was time for me to live, it was protected because…my higher self was protecting me knowing what I was needing as I got older… I say it saved me.”
    —Raven-Symoné, 43:12

• On Anger and Healing

  • “I don’t know what that emotion is… I always have a different word for it. It’s like, well, I’m disappointed… I know rage—I’m really good with rage… but like, can you imagine it being productive? … No.”
    —Mayim and Jonathan, 63:57

• On the Joy of Being Unrecognized

  • “All of the tween stars…were getting pictured but they didn’t know it was me because my friends call me by one of my many other names and I live in a different world.”
    —Raven-Symoné, 17:01

• On Universality of Struggle

  • “Mental health doesn’t care how much money you have and doesn’t care anything about you because we are all kind of equal opportunity humans on this planet.”
    —Mayim Bialik, 19:40

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Child Stardom & Identity: 04:26 – 12:14
• Disappearing & Anonymity: 17:01 – 19:40
• Labels, Gender, and Sexuality: 23:47 – 39:44
• Coping, Defense Mechanisms, and Therapy: 43:12 – 62:26
• Anger, Setting Boundaries, and Healing: 63:57 – 70:03
• Meeting, Relationship Growth & Breakup Story: 25:14, 49:26, 53:04
• YouTube Channel & Podcast Projects: 72:08 – 73:54
• Relatability & Closing Reflections: 74:24 – 78:20

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Closing Reflections

This episode stands as a powerful, relatable exploration of the human journey toward self-acceptance, healing, and connection. Whether navigating the unique pressures of fame or the universal challenges of relationships and mental health, Raven-Symoné and Miranda Pearman-Maday's candor will resonate with anyone striving to feel seen—and better—in their own skin.

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Listen for more insight and laughs by finding Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Mayim Bialik]

hi i'm mayim bialik and i'm jonathan

[Jonathan Cohen]

cohen and welcome to our breakdown today in honor of both pride month and ptsd awareness month we're gonna revisit an awesome episode that we did with raven simone and miranda pearman maday you of course know raven from if you're my age the cosby show but also from disney channels that's so raven raven's home and and also the view and she joins us with her wife miranda who's an incredible content creator producer writer also a doula raven opens up about her trauma journey in a very vulnerable way that we actually hadn't heard her speak about elsewhere she talks about the confining nature of labels when it comes to sexuality and gender and how sexuality actually helped protect her true identity they also

[Mayim Bialik]

broke down their experience with somatic therapy shadow and energy work and raven also discusses her past relationships with people with narcissistic tendencies she and mime actually bond over their strikingly similar coping mechanisms that they developed growing up as child actors and their ability to read others plus

[Jonathan Cohen]

how can being a celebrity heighten your people pleasing tendencies we thought this was a perfect conversation to share with you again in honor of pride month and ptsd awareness month for more content you

[Mayim Bialik]

cannot get anywhere else check us out on substack and for ad free versions of the show mayim bialik's breakdown on

[Jonathan Cohen]

substack please enjoy our conversation with raven

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

cool no you don't understand it went perfectly real offer down to the penny they're picking it up tomorrow nothing went wrong so what's the problem that is the problem nothing in my life goes

[Mayim Bialik]

as smoothly i'm waiting for the catch

[Raven Simone]

maybe there's no catch that's exactly what

[Mayim Bialik]

a catch would want me to think

[Jonathan Cohen]

wow you need to relax i need to knock on wood do we have what is this table wood i think it's laminate okay yeah that's good that's close enough car selling without a catch sell your car today on carvana pick up these may apply and miranda break it down it's really fun to get to talk to both of you especially since jonathan and i are people who are work together work together closely and really really have a lot of respect for the work that the two of you are doing together and it's really just exciting to get to speak to both of you so welcome thank you

[Miranda Pearman]

thank you for having us you are

[Jonathan Cohen]

in la but raven you were born in atlanta and miranda you're from la

[Miranda Pearman]

is that right yes like you born

[Jonathan Cohen]

and raised i was actually born in san diego but raised here but it is rare to meet people who are actually from la and there's work that you do together that i do wanna talk about but i do also wanna ask raven just a couple questions to kind of orient people so first of all you look amazing you look like you have not aged i mean obviously many of us you came into many of our consciousness when you were a wee one and you actually had started modeling at at sixteen months like you were a i don't know if it's like a toddler model is that a

[Raven Simone]

thing yeah diapers were i was killing the game i was dripping in diapers

[Jonathan Cohen]

i would imagine you don't have any specific memory of that i don't remember yesterday right same one of the things that i wanted to sort of ask you about is you know you you are a person who really grew up literally you know kind of with that consciousness of other you know observing what do you sort of like even reflecting back like when you think about you know that sixteen month old what do you sort of you know imagine that sort of trajectory was like and sort of how that impacted you i know it's kind of a big question to

[Raven Simone]

start off with well i think it's my whole life i don't really have anything to compare it to so impacting is i mean i could answer that question as easily as saying this is all i've ever known so any of my actions or behaviors stem from that good bad and ugly i think that growing up in the industry from the age of sixteen months to thirty six years old leaves an interesting trail of breadcrumbs that can be used in a positive light for others can help others can inform others and when it comes to me personally i'm dealing with that through my therapist thank you very much

[Jonathan Cohen]

you were cast in the cosby show when you were three years old and here's a strange little fun connection i was on a show called blossom when i was fourteen to nineteen we premiered after the cosby show in nineteen ninety i guess it was so cosby was still on must have been i mean it was a kind of funny overlap and i never got to interact with you or with any of the cast members it didn't kind of work like that in those days but that's just kind of a special connection that that i had with that that era you know of television you were a very very cute child and that was a lot of that kind of appeal you know you you brought life to an aspect of a show that was so beloved and so long running as well but you kind of you stayed in this television world and you have thrived i mean you are still actively working has there been a time in your life when you were not working

[Raven Simone]

i'll answer that question but first i want to say thank you to you and the work that you did during that time no we did not interact but a female heading a sitcom was in the cards for me to pay attention to and study because that was very rare very rare when you were young and i studied that entire show from top to bottom just so you know

[Miranda Pearman]

and i did too not for my acting career but just because i fucking can i curse because i just fucking loved blossom i was like yes yes

[Raven Simone]

i definitely a lot of my outfits on the cosby show were inspired by

[Miranda Pearman]

you the cats it was classic eighties

[Raven Simone]

the classic floral early nineties real yeah

[Jonathan Cohen]

and phylicia rashad was actually she was in our first episode the character the character of blossom had a mother who left the family to pursue her own interests which again in nineteen eighty nine when that script was written by don rio people were like a woman who wants to live her own life and leaves her children what kind of beast is that and we built this show around a girl who had you know essentially no mom raising her and blossom's fantasy mom was you know the mom from the cosby show and so actually phylicia rashad decorates an entire cake of fallopian tubes and ovaries in our very first episode cause blossom gets her period and it is misses cosby who explains it all but yeah tell me about sort of the time in your life when maybe you weren't working because you you have a very prolific career so

[Raven Simone]

like you said sixteen months old i did the cosby i was modeling i did a couple commercials three years old i started on the cosby show i ended that at six between six and seven i had my first album and went on tour seven to eleven i was on hanging with mister cooper for four years that aired during tgi friday and every weekend i would go on tour with that as well after that i did doctor dolittle and i kept working kept working started on my disney career albums and movies and then twenty eleven i did a six month stint on broadway during that time i had a little bit of a mental realization that from nineteen eighty something till twenty eleven i had not taken a break that last like i could count up the days and it probably equaled like a year and a half of doing nothing i've always been doing something and so i took it upon myself to say my industry and i went to school i had about a three year break and then whoopi goldberg and everyone at the view kind of asked me to come on and pulled me back in and here i am again so i had like a three year stint twenty eleven twelve thirteen where i was able to decompress and kind of look at life but it wasn't long enough and i continue to find ways to kind of separate myself from the industry so at some point in my lifetime i can say you know longer than three years of relaxation while we had

[Jonathan Cohen]

very you know kind of different experiences up until college age you know i literally walked off of a television set and onto a college campus and you know i remember yeah i did blossom i was two years out of high school when blossom ended and you know i was like really ready to have a different experience you know as i'm sure you can relate to and then some i know it's like a weird question like what was that like cause like for me it was weird it almost took three years to kind of like even feel whatever normal's supposed to feel like i don't even know and everybody's like nobody's normal okay but some of us are less normal than others when we've like been on your tv set you know so do you remember or like do you have any sort of notion of that adjustment or you know where it fits into kind of your life now i like to tell

[Raven Simone]

the story that my mom was never watched any of my shows didn't really like my character on the original that's so raven she thought i was acting crazy and ridiculous and she wasn't truly proud of me until i went to college and i got my aa so the journey was i i actually did college online for the three years and i only went to the campus during summer school it wasn't because i was afraid because i had gone to public school from elementary to high school during hiatus weeks so i know what it was like to be integrated into normal population you would say however i did not take the leap to go to college campus because i was tired of being around people every day and i totally be by myself and do the work and like you know drink and not wake up until four o' clock in the afternoon like i was having all of those teenage moments that people did in public by myself during those three years and when i went to school well i went to the academy of art university based in san francisco and i remember taking a fine arts class and a printmaking class i thrived in printmaking class but i felt the judgment of the kids during my fine arts class because oh she's famous she thinks she can draw too because there's so many people in our industry who take full advantage of their celebrity name and claim themselves across so many boards when you know they draw a stick figure and it sells for seven million dollars i'm like i have a degree and i'm going to do this the way it's supposed to be done and teacher was like why are you here it's like because i'm trying to grow another aspect of me i can't act for the rest of my life i have to have something to fall back on so it was a very enlightening experience i walked to school every day in the dirty streets of san francisco nobody knew who i was i you know kept it real low key it was a great experience and i want to do it again actually they just called me asking me tell me if i got a refund from a couple years ago and i'm like let me

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Raven Simone]

refund thank you there's so much that

[Jonathan Cohen]

i relate to about you and your story that is very particular but there's also this kind of universal notion of like people's expectations of us and you know what they think we're capable of and also what people want to be true because it serves their own kind of narrative i am curious about the recognizing thing because i you know i have found that unadorned women you know the unadorned feminist is sort of the academic term that's the best way for me not to get recognized is what i've noticed and having more of a mellow and laid back presence actually is something that's very comfortable for me but it also has fed into a lot of like the way that i dress like my slouchy posture like trying to disappear and like weight is a protective element can you speak a little bit about sort of like the disappearing that you have gotten to do yeah for

[Raven Simone]

sure i got lucky in my career because the brand that was sold at such a young age was this uber feminine hair straight and eyebrows on fleek type world and so when i would go out the true me is more masculine presenting in a way and no makeup and trust me i'm a flashy like i i wear flashy stuff i got a flashy car i'm all of that but it's not in the uber feminine sense so when i was at the height of that so raven i got away with a lot more than people actually knew because i'd be out in these streets like in the same restaurant as all of the tween stars that were getting pictured but they didn't know it was me because my friends call me by one of my many other names and i live in a different world i understand what you're saying about the anonymity of it all because it's something i'll never have for the entirety of my entire life and neither will you no matter how much we slouch and hide and gain weight because everybody will judge it but yes there are tricks of the trade and i think you know one thing that miranda and i have actually been talking about over the course of the days is there is something different about the celebrity that has grown up in the industry there's just something different and we don't talk about it enough because it's such a niche it's such a community it's a different lens we look through it's a different world we live in in our minds and yes we conform to social normities and things of that nature but at the end of the day we have been filmed and recorded for the pleasure and entertainment of so many people we know how to shapeshift we know how to manipulate situations we can read the room in a different way you know one thing miranda says is like you can't assume that i'm angry i'm like literally i've had two hundred scripts that show me two thousand ways of anger by every single writer out there if i don't know how to read anger i didn't do any of my job right and then she's like but i'm not i'm like i missed one moment but like it is true there are some things that we have to learn as child actors and actors but ones that have been in the industry since you know since time not the two early two thousands but like even farther back where it's just a little bit different and it's hard to put into words where we don't sound disrespectful it's hard could you you know what i'm talking about yeah yeah yeah

[Jonathan Cohen]

well and i think also you've handled this with a lot of grace and that's something i've really admired about you really for all of your adult life especially when it sort of became something that people were asking you to speak to is this notion of like nobody wants to hear like oh poor little rich girl you know because and i don't hear that in you and i don't hear it in myself but i think other people sometimes do it's like you made all this money what do you expect like your life is so easy like everything's amazing and you know you get to like wear all these pretty clothes and like what do you have to complain about and one of the reasons that jonathan and i started this podcast is because like guess what mental health doesn't care how much money you have and doesn't care anything about you because we are all kind of equal opportunity humans on this planet so but i definitely i do relate also to that notion of like oh she thinks she's so hot because and all i wanted to do was just not

[Raven Simone]

be special i used to get so excited when i was in chorus class and i would get chosen in the you know the alto section for a solo monday through friday and then literally on tour with nsync on that weekend and not caring because that's just my job and it's whatever but i was more excited to wear that ugly you know chorus outfit black pants that didn't fit cause i had too many of the pizza snacks at school and i was like i'm in chorus and my dad is like you just made a shit ton of money over at nsync like what's wrong with you when i

[Jonathan Cohen]

was sixteen i was on blossom every saturday i would volunteer at the hollywood it was on fountain and coal it was the hollywood senior citizen center and i would put on my little like hair net and my plastic apron and my gloves and there was not a happier human than me serving up a chicken breast and thigh and green beans to a bunch of people in their eighties and nineties who had no idea who i was like because they they were they treated me like a a real person which meant sometimes they were mean to me if they were in a bad mood i heard it sometimes they were nice to me i didn't have that notion of like are they just being nice to me because yeah like it was and that's what i did i served up that chicken so

[Raven Simone]

happily i love it i love it and i totally understand it and i think sometimes the people in this generation are missing that because they've been brainwashed to believe that it's so awesome to just be famous totally they've been brainwashed it's like no i'm gonna have that i'm like you don't you just got here bro you just got here i need you to take like ten years and then you'll be i told miranda this the other day i said i had an idea with a friend of mine that i would go ride public buses and see who would recognize me and who wouldn't and like actually live that life that's why i love going to other countries yeah because i can oh my god i remember when i was eighteen i went to london and it was for a just a fun vacation and i went with a friend of mine and i woke up early at like six am and i got on the train on the tube and then i got on the city bus and i went to stonehenge by myself i was eighteen i had already done concerts where i needed a military bodyguard and people out five hours signing autographs at walmart and things like that but i was on the tube in london going to stonehenge going to stonehenge like the happiest human in the world and it's an interesting want because everyone else wants what we have naturally and it's like it's it's not always greener and trust me do i want it every day no i really do love my tesla but at the same time you know going back and forth doesn't hurt

[Jonathan Cohen]

right i do want to ask one more thing that you mentioned about sort of you know having a more masculine presence or getting to be yourself whatever that you know kind of looks or feels like did you have a notion of kind of like gender identity sexuality at that time or was it more just like this is what feels like

[Raven Simone]

me oh no i knew what i knew what was up but i knew that the mask was necessary because there was a brand being built and i was told my whole life that nobody's going to buy that being called a dyke on in concert by my own team because i wanted to wear a tie and a vest and doing all that and hiding it and one of my boyfriends being like when you when you're at work you're such a girl when you come home you're such a dude i was like i can't help it is just how i am but miranda actually has been the only person in my life who has made me feel super comfortable to be me on a morning noon and night basis and i'm learning as we all know slow programming programming takes a while to deprogram but i'm learning how to do that more and more when the camera is on and that's hard to do because my parents used to call it razzle dazzle it's like i don't care if you're sick tired or under the weather as soon as they say action nobody cares about your feelings you better perform so she's helping me kind of feel better in my skin i love that

[Jonathan Cohen]

and i do want to you know kind of welcome miranda more to this conversation because you you had knowledge of the industry and you have had a lot of different you know kind of identities in the industry and you've done a lot of really neat stuff even before the two of you met but how did you meet and connect we

[Miranda Pearman]

met well we like to joke that we were on the warner brothers lot at the same time because my father worked at warner bro for almost as long as i've known him but he was i was three years old when my dad started working at warner brothers and raven was doing hanging with mister cooper so we joke that we were both there i was i learned to drive on the back lot i mean that was like where i grew up to a certain extent but she did too so we totally passed each other then if it was at the commissary or soundstage whatever in actuality we met at a karaoke night at a bar in west hollywood raven was a host of this event and i was there with some friends and she was there with some friends and we started talking and i kind of felt a vibe very quickly i felt very comfortable with her which is huge for me right so feeling safe with somebody is not my norm and i have a lot of anxiety and i really felt this level of calm that was a big ping to me and then we just kind of had this natural conversation and as quickly as it started it ended because she was like okay i have to go i've had my two drinks i've done my job my job and now people are starting to kind of like crowd me and i was like wait wait wait i'm just getting warmed up and that was it but we obviously exchanged numbers and and i could

[Raven Simone]

tell that she didn't know who i was which was the best part with

[Jonathan Cohen]

all due respect like what rock were you living under that you didn't know

[Miranda Pearman]

i was going to say excuse me very much i don't live her a rock that was literally gonna be my response i actually did know who she was but it wasn't interesting to me right and i also wasn't a fan i think that's the biggest thing i knew who raven was and i knew of that so raven but i had never seen the show i'd never watched hanging with mister cooper i've never seen to this day an episode of cosby but then i also like to say i was born in nineteen eighty seven and it's like the things that i was watching i was a little young yes totally like i was watching barney and stuff and your family comes from

[Raven Simone]

a theater background so i'm sure that what was on television wasn't necessarily like that kind of show what were your

[Miranda Pearman]

parents watching dina i mean i know as a young kid we watched my mom loved sesame street and barney and i watched those shows consistently and then i was telling raven this actually because the other day she was like how have you not seen a single episode of cosby and i was like listen i used to get the stomach flu a lot and i used to have nightmares a lot and my mom would take care of me and whatever that was like after i'd peed the bed or thrown up she would put me in front of the tv in her room and i would watch late night television but it was like nick at night or i was watching dream of i dream of jeannie and i was watching the munsters and i was watching bewitched and as was i that was kind of that and then it became sabrina the teenage witch and full house and family matters those were like my real go to shows step by step step by step fuck yeah did you ever watch mister cooper no i never i haven't seen it's literally him on

[Raven Simone]

the same night as all those other ones i died literally she's naming fries

[Jonathan Cohen]

literally that's like the rundown of everything

[Miranda Pearman]

i know this is what she's this is how she shamed me with that's so raven too because i was like i watched lizzie mcguire i watched even and she's like the show that came before or in the middle or like i don't know but anyhow i didn't know who she was i wasn't a fan but i am now oh i love you too babe i am i think my wife is extremely talented and very cool and that's so raven raven's home i mean that's so raven really is fantastic it's awesome and can i

[Jonathan Cohen]

ask and you are serious you're completely welcome first of all you two are adorable you are completely welcome to not answer this i ask it because it's the kind of thing that might be helpful for people listening to hear had you been in a relationship either of you with a female person before or was this a first for either or

[Miranda Pearman]

both of you i had been in well yes yes i had dated oh gosh i think maybe two or three

[Raven Simone]

let me count them real quick i

[Miranda Pearman]

don't know before you but i will tell you this so in high school i was a very like awkward late bloomer type of person i didn't have my first high school boyfriend until my senior year and he was my first everything and then i ended up dating a few other people after that and then i met a girl but raven was the first person that i remember having this moment we were actually in new york she was on the view at the time and i remember walking down the street with her and we were just like shooting the shit whatever she had just finished a day of work and i had this real like i don't even know what to call it aha moment where i was like wow i might forever be in a lesbian relationship and have to really understand like what that might mean for myself because this is my person this is my person and i just really knew that and it felt really okay but yeah she wasn't my first girl but but she's my last

[Jonathan Cohen]

just the hallmark cards are just being written as we speak and what about you raven is

[Raven Simone]

that one on you that was so good i'm a little bit of a hoe no listen i was she's like

[Miranda Pearman]

twenty i'm number thirty one oh no raven likes to do this this is the classic raven move with us well she'll be telling a story and then she'll go and then i was with my partner at the time sorry babe i love you so much like she feels like she has to apologize for the fact that she dated people before me which i you don't want me to stop doing that i do okay done done great look at that we just had a therapeutic moment together right

[Raven Simone]

here so you can't be mad at me when i say anyway we just

[Miranda Pearman]

prevented a breakdown thank you oh patun

[Raven Simone]

tung i liked it okay so my first kiss was a girl then i started dating guys but less adaptive girls and then my longest heterosexual relationship we thought we were going to get married but my conversation to him was always so i'm going to have a girlfriend when we get married right because i can't just be with you for the rest of my life and then we broke up thank god dated a couple more guys and then also dated a couple of girls and then there was a moment which i'm not going to get into too much but let's just say i threw up and my body was not happy with what i was putting it through and i was like no more guys bye and then i just stopped and honored myself a little

[Miranda Pearman]

bit more you were just like super gay that's all it is babes you

[Raven Simone]

were just is that an official title

[Miranda Pearman]

within the lgbtq yes exactly it's an official you just knew it's true you knew from such a young age too which i think is part we were a little bit different there as well

[Raven Simone]

it's true yeah like i did notice young age and my friends would say you're such a dude and i'd be like now calm down i just really like jay z and like want to be him when i grow up but like don't worry about it and then i would be yeah i did know

[Miranda Pearman]

at a very young age yeah it

[Jonathan Cohen]

is also possible just again speaking to sort of like the larger human experience it is also possible to like jay z want to be him when you grow up and also not be gay i have a thirteen and a sixteen year old and jonathan has a fourteen year old so there's also like this culture that you know this generation is growing up in where like everything really i don't mean to say like anything goes but the notion of like uncoupling even our expectations about gender you know we are really like deconstructing gender and sexuality i think on a like you know at least for me as a mom like on a day to day basis of like you can be like this and still be this or you may feel like this or like that but you know part of it is like the labels can be so confining and in many cases not helpful you know and i would say the same thing about even like spectrum disorders like the terms help until they don't and i think that's true of kind of like you know the the terms gay and lesbian and also like feminine and

[Miranda Pearman]

masculine i totally agree and that's something that i have kind of intuitively always known meaning so many people would ask me in my life oh okay so you're gay now and i'm like i don't really know how to answer that because it never felt necessary for me and i don't want to be dismissive to the work and the struggle that so many people have had to do within our community to stand proudly in their ability to say i am gay and i have these rights and i love this person because it is it's a true it's been a true struggle and still is to this day but for me as an individual i never even tomboy right so growing up like i enjoyed wearing a bigger fitting shirt and i still kind of do and you know not a lot of makeup but then there were days when i wanted to be super feminine and i always played with barbie dolls and i always had this really kind of imaginative world and liked having ribbons in my hair and i had blonde curly hair so i you know kind of felt like goldilocks from goldilocks and the three bears was my girl and so it's like i had these differences within myself but my parents never tried to confine it or define it and i think when i continued into my life and my adulthood i just never have felt inclined to label myself an anyway and i don't know i see both sides of it and how it is very important for some but for me straight out saying and raven will joke me and she's like you haven't even come out you're not even out and i'm like dude i don't know what else i mean but i but i were married i'm out but you know but

[Raven Simone]

i grew up in a different type of community right so like our gender expression is totally different than your gender

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Raven Simone]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Raven Simone]

today your sexual orientation so let's separate the two immediately and i think that goes to my sentence of you know you're tomboy i want to be like jay z or whatever whatever yeah can

[Jonathan Cohen]

you explain that because i think some people still don't get it gender gender

[Raven Simone]

expression is the masculine the femininity the you know no gender expression whatsoever the skirt with the you know blazer on top the the makeup with a full like it's just how you express yourself on the outside but sexual orientation is who you want to be in love with and have a sexual relationship with that's totally different but in my community there are still the importance of labels you know stud femme masculine mask dyke twink like there's so many derogatory words but we've you know grabbed for our own and i think that in some communities we're starting to break down those stereotypes and those labels but you know that was one of the things that i said a few years ago that you know ran rampant on the internet raven doesn't want to be labeled she doesn't want to be labeled you were

[Jonathan Cohen]

ahead of your time though people didn't

[Raven Simone]

get it and i didn't explain it very well i'll definitely say that i've learned how to talk better now now that i'm married to miranda but i that's what i meant because i liked girls and i liked guys at the time and i dressed like a boy and i dressed like a girl and i had this thought and that thought and i didn't have a label for myself i got married and i was like yeah i'm in a lesbian relationship and somebody was like oh you're labeling yourself now i said yeah for you because you can't think outside the box i'm cool with it you know what i mean like i'm over here expressing myself in all kinds of ways but again it's really important to separate sexual identity and gender expression because they are not the same and they don't really need to live in the same box you know what i mean sexual sexual orientation is totally different and when you

[Jonathan Cohen]

say your community can you be a little more explicit before i answer that

[Raven Simone]

i want to say i am not i do not want to be a spokesperson for all of the black community i don't consider myself that i consider myself a part of the community but i'm a part of a lot of different communities and my experience has been my experience meaning i am on television since i was three i'm a female i'm a black female i'm light skinned and i'm married to a white woman so my experience in the black community is everywhere and everyone's experience would be different that being said there's my disclaimer i think that there is a historic understanding within the black community that one interracial relationships are scary dangerous not the best blah blah blah blah but that's being broken down nowadays which is beautiful also within the lesbian community it's like are you where are you in your relationship are you the masculine one are you the feminine one are you happy and two studs can't be together femmes can always be together and it's just like that's what it is because of our understanding of the heterosexual relationship and how we have to function in society just the unconscious programming that we give ourselves but i will say i don't think that's just the black community i think that that lives in a lot of communities i know there's one that i can't speak as an expert on but they do not and i'm also going to not name what it is but i know this to be true they do not agree with being gay but if the male has a sex change they will be accepted as a female you've heard of that so it's like all right the standards and practices of certain communities are necessary for the cisgendered religious based people to feel comfortable that's all we're doing we're just trying to make other people feel comfortable but not this generation this generation don't give a about anybody so i love it

[Jonathan Cohen]

i wanted to thank you also both of you for being so candid about this i hate to to make you feel like you're under a microscope or like you speak for all any type of human being but i think that there's there's so much fear around talking about it and i think it's really helpful to hear people's experience even when it's not neat you know and i think that's also what it is like people want it really they want it to be neat they just want to be like who do you have sex with and what genitalia goes with it and i hope they match because that's what makes me feel the best right like that's that's you know anyway like

[Mayim Bialik]

we try and put so many labels on it but then that separates us from the inner knowing raven that you were speaking about like you were being guided by a somatic understanding of what you wanted and i don't want to call it a higher power but like it sounds like there was an intuition there and sometimes being in the mind and trying to label it what am i and putting it into a box or a category separates us from being able to follow what we instinctively know so it sounds like like you know those two things have to you can't do both at the same time sometimes you just have to either intellectualize it and understand it and then go from there or more often it's like oh wait a second we have a feeling and by making space for that and trying to not label it and just feel it and see where that guides us it makes it clearer i want

[Raven Simone]

to agree with that i feel like you know a lot of people are always say you turned out so well how come you didn't end up like all these other people and and when i say other people i other child stars whose trajectory was not as positive and for the longest time i was like i don't know but as i grew up and i came out i think my gay self really stayed in a box and protected the true me so then when it was time for me to live it was protected because like you said my higher self i do call it i call it my higher self was protecting me knowing what i was needing as i got older if i survived i say it saved me i'm going through shadow work now that is super difficult but it's a lot easier to go through because i know that my brain split i knew what i had to be in order to survive the world that i was living in and i know who i am in order to be my best self and authentic self now so i agree with you and that's something that

[Miranda Pearman]

we talk about a lot actually because raven and i love kind of self analyzing and therapy and having deep conversations and i've had a slew of mental health i don't even know the word issues problems challenges that's much nicer sounding but really kind of being able and despite the fact that we have different experiences right she grew up on a set i didn't blah blah blah we

[Raven Simone]

are both riddled with depression yeah no

[Miranda Pearman]

but we both have very similar results from life experiences and these defense mechanisms you know i think that listening to what you just said raven it's like my gay self was protective or i was protective of that inner self and that was really valuable for a long time amount of time but then there became a point in time where it no longer served and you had to come out and do the next level and for me i've had so much of that where i'm like wow this defense mechanism thank you you were keeping me safe you were helping me cope with the circumstance of my life at that time you know for me around the age of seven years old my parents split up a lot more fear anxiety worry came into my ether and food became my comfort and my best friend but then there became a point where i was like okay yo you're sixteen years old you cannot be housing pizzas on a friday night because without me without me without raven because you need one other person to help you eat two pizzas that's just the reality but that comfort that i was seeking was no longer okay in that space and it was now i'd flipped it and it was becoming destructive so i think everyone has those to an extent and it doesn't matter kind of mayim what you were saying too it's like just the humanness that we all share in common we will all find these similar themes in our lives in one way or another regardless of being famous or not or being poor rich or whatever it doesn't these things don't care

[Mayim Bialik]

there's such a universality to it replace gayness with anything that you need to change a defense mechanism that had previously protected us and now we have to move on and if we stay trapped in not even trapped if we stay stagnant if we're not moving towards becoming something else and finding more about ourselves

[Raven Simone]

then we're stuck and there's people that you can come into contact with that help you unlock that unstuck it that help you unlock it i mean i before i met miranda i truly truly went about my dating career each person taught me something about myself that i did or did not like and as soon as i broke up with that person i don't want to say manipulated i implemented the changes that i wanted for myself right and i was like okay if we're supposed to be together then we'll still be together if not these are the things i'm changing break up with them change what i need to and then that type of human never came back in my life but there was one toxic trait that i was not aware of in the humans that i was picking what was it narcissistic behavior that i was picking because i didn't understand that part about me right so then i meet miranda and now i cry every night not from

[Miranda Pearman]

her but but also wait pause because you said that you had people come into your life you'd break up and they never came back but i came

[Raven Simone]

back well that's what i'm you did come back because if she says that i'd never said this and it's possible because i have memory issues but i remember distinctly breaking up with you and saying if you're supposed to be in

[Miranda Pearman]

my i did say that didn't i

[Raven Simone]

i know i did it was actually

[Miranda Pearman]

i remember that breakup like yesterday okay okay i said that though yes gave me a hug and i know me

[Raven Simone]

because she just this is on recording right this is the thing oh i'm

[Jonathan Cohen]

watching the whole thing best show on television what's happening right here you have

[Miranda Pearman]

to start with a hug no i

[Raven Simone]

don't i don't remember it all i remember was saying this you go ahead

[Miranda Pearman]

and you tell no i'll just tell this part she she breaks up with me we stand up i'm getting ready to leave and she gives me this huge hug and she holds me and i'm like what's happening and then she pushes me back she has both her hands on my shoulders and she looks me in the eye and she says you deserve who wants to hug you like that every day and i was not what i'm talking about i know and then you said and i was like oh my god that's terrible then

[Raven Simone]

i said if we're supposed to be together and back in each other's lives we will be you have to let something you love go and if you if it's supposed to be there it'll come back and i truly believe it

[Miranda Pearman]

and then she went and made tacos and i left and walked the streets of new york city and crying hysterically tacos were good like a mess of a human and i ended up i mean if you want the real story

[Raven Simone]

no nobody wants the real story so here's what happened she came back and

[Miranda Pearman]

we're both back i don't want to hear it we met in la at the karaoke night mentioned earlier raven and i saw each other two more times in la and then she was like hey so i'm moving to new york in about a week because i'm going to be hosting the view and she

[Raven Simone]

you don't want to tell them about the sick ass party i threw it

[Miranda Pearman]

wasn't that sick anyhow she then says if i buy you a ticket if i buy you a ticket will you come and i was like no i'm

[Jonathan Cohen]

not red flag she's trying to buy you a ticket you just met her

[Mayim Bialik]

that's a red flag never go to a secondary location don't go to a

[Miranda Pearman]

secondary location i know you guys you're right i should have said i should have stuck to my guns but i said no and at this point she had packed up her house in la

[Raven Simone]

with a sick ass party that everyone still talks about to today it wasn't

[Miranda Pearman]

that sick and she was staying at my place so the last four days that she was staying in los angeles and this is the second week of my knowing her she was she lived

[Mayim Bialik]

with me so she also red flag

[Jonathan Cohen]

that's a lesbian thing it's a lesbian

[Miranda Pearman]

thing it's a lesbian and she could have stayed somewhere else she just wanted to stay with me obviously anyhow i go to new york with her you

[Mayim Bialik]

got to get your claws in there

[Miranda Pearman]

yeah you know what i mean she goes to new york i fly out like a week and a half later and we go on a camping trip and i was in my head she bought me a one way ticket and i figured you know i have a life in los angeles i have an apartment i pay rent i have mail but i stayed mail mail i really remember having anxiety about my mailbox i was like the mail it's not about

[Jonathan Cohen]

the mailbox honey it's not about the

[Raven Simone]

mailbox about that other box come here

[Miranda Pearman]

but anyhow we i ended up staying i ended up staying in new york basically the month of september came back a little bit in october and then flew back to new york end of october and i stayed until the breakup which is where we left off until

[Jonathan Cohen]

the breakup so when was the breakup six years later five minutes later no

[Miranda Pearman]

it was eight months later it was eight months later in twenty seventeen and thursday we were living yeah right at exactly four thirty pm and we were living in the same we were raven had an apartment in new york york i moved into that apartment but at the time i had also had to let go of my apartment in la and there was a studio that became available in the same building so i rented that studio which had become basically a storage unit and she used to sleep in the tub oh my god so anyway she breaks up with me and i was like cool now i have to move from the sixth floor into the fourth floor from the sixth

[Jonathan Cohen]

floor to the fourth floor in the

[Miranda Pearman]

same building yeah i was moving on down moving on down and you had a question in the same building you

[Mayim Bialik]

had a question i do have a question again this the writer in me wants to set a little bit of additional context okay so we're going to be a little circuitous but there's a breakup you've moved down two floors you're in the same building i have my hands like i imagine the apartments are right above each other just so that the vibe is there but that's irrelevant the movie version they're right above each other what precipitated the breakup up in the relationship and i have a menu of choices none of them could be right all of a sudden it got real you're like holy it's been eight months like this is you know i know i'm no longer checking my mail in la miranda's finally gotten comfortable now raven is like holy i got this girl here now what do i do with her like what what's happening in the dynamic of the relationship that sparks

[Raven Simone]

the birth breakup what's happening is the same thing that's happening in our relationship now it's real there's real conversations happening there's conversations of future and how we want to be and what we want our lives to be and i wasn't ready for it but i'm ready now which is why we are together which is why the conversations are stronger now because i ran like a little coward and now i'm back with my tail between my legs hoping that she forgives me for that moment but it's i

[Miranda Pearman]

have and honestly to be fair i kind of knew too that that wasn't going to be our end even though i was very sad and very very heartbroken and walking the streets of new york crying like a lost little puppy but nobody cared in new york right the people just like move out of the way you crazy but i knew that there would be something that brought

[Raven Simone]

us back together and our therapist told us that it's very bad to in the past and not bring it up so for the safety of our relationship can we talk about the now because i have a lot of things to answer for that time that i don't want to talk about right now hold

[Mayim Bialik]

just one second you'll see where i'm going okay this is important because a lot of relationships have this like they talk about the chase but i don't think it is that i actually think it's when two people are coming together it does get real like we begin to realize that oh my gosh this is real and the comfort of each individual is kind of like moving and as you sort of get together there's a freakout that happens everyone like every couple everyone i hear it's very rare that both people are like totally calm and centered come together it gets super real and no one has that catastrophic freakout and what happens is that you you withdraw because in order to be in a relationship with someone you have to expand and start to merge and we're talking sort of like in the energetic space and emotional state and you're no longer an individual and you give up some of your freedom and you

[Jonathan Cohen]

have to have sex with someone that you actually like instead of someone you just are lusting after it's very exhausting

[Mayim Bialik]

very different very different very different every time we're talking to people who especially who are known people we say it's not you know everything that they go through is mirrored in other people that are not famous it's not about the fact that they're famous we all have protective mechanisms and earlier in this conversation raven has a look in her eye that scans when when people are talking that's like looking for bullshit and there's a parallel in you know in the early part of this conversation mime and ray the way raven was telling the story a lot of parallels in mime's experience and you know i've been able to spend quite a bit of time with mime over the last two and a half years in getting to know her she has that same look what

[Jonathan Cohen]

the i don't trust anyone and that's never going to change look exactly you're

[Mayim Bialik]

welcome and a lot of people have it but i think it's heightened being in the industry because everyone is you're a product in the industry you got to turn the camera on you have to perform there's no sick days no one cares about what your internal world is and when no one cares about what your internal world is and you have a lot of time that you spend where no one cares about what your internal world is it's very hard to then transfer into a relationship with the cameras off and trust that people are going to care about what your

[Jonathan Cohen]

internal world is also i'm the boss everywhere meaning i also have a life of people just like lying to me all the time that i'm amazing when i'm not people don't tell me if i hurt their feelings even if i want to know like i you can't even get a straight answer from people sometimes like even if you're like oh did i just hurt your fit no it's fine like you'd have no idea so what what's also a challenge and like i was you know i was with someone for fifteen years i dated i was married we had kids like it's very hard to go from also being like the the boss person or not even the boss person but like the person that everyone's tending to but then other people have needs too and it's like but i'm not done having my needs because those were my work needs now i have personal needs who's gonna tell like it makes me feel like i was like this like just bottomless pit of need like is there room for me to give to anyone else because i still need taken care of it's just got real personal real

[Miranda Pearman]

fast mayim i have a question though were you able to identify what your personal needs were and communicate them to

[Jonathan Cohen]

no no how could i i was always told when i was hungry when i was angry when i was sad when i was happy it was like i mean and also i was just like my parents are first generation americans and i was raised very like i'll tell you when you're cold put a jacket on but i'm not cold but yes you are so like also that's just the way a lot of us were raised in the you know seventies and eighties so like add that to them like the industry and also like you know my parents did the best that they could like my mom actually protected me a ton of like a lot more than a lot of kids were protected but still it's like my entire consciousness was built around how do i make you happy how do we know that i did my job well

[Raven Simone]

you know if they're happy you're safe that's it and you can go about your business and go cry in the

[Jonathan Cohen]

bathroom somewhere else and and that doesn't make for necessarily easy productive healthy relationships because also so you know that that's why drugs and alcohol and food and sex and all those things like they

[Mayim Bialik]

numb it i'm not trying to call either of you out by any stretch of the imagination but circling back to like that freak out it's really hard to settle in and to trust it's really much you know the programming is to pull back and to say i can only figure out my needs alone instead of in relation so you know that's sort of where i was going full circle in terms of of you know you moving down to that second to the fourth floor is that makes you know a lot of sense and i almost you know just saying it more as like of course of course when it gets real anyone with the programming that you have to figure out your needs alone is gonna is gonna try to figure out their needs alone

[Raven Simone]

yeah jonathan you hit a lot of different nail heads bro congrats i wanted

[Jonathan Cohen]

to ask like i got into therapy basically as soon as i it was humanly possible i'm curious kind of like what works best for you know both of you together or separately what kind of work is sort of nurturing you

[Miranda Pearman]

now i feel like i've been in therapy forever and i mean seriously i think like at seven years old my mom was like here therapy because she was getting a divorce and i started making like clay models of my feelings but i think recently what has been helpful honestly is more of the somatic therapy approach because i am highly aware of my shit and i can very easily say well this happened and it triggered this and this was the trickle effect and then this was the result and now that's why i feel x y and z about myself or this environment or the situation or this person but the awareness seems to have less impact on the action or the feelings and especially those that end up stuck in my body so figuring out how to feel a sensation and react to it appropriately or let it go has been really big for me and there's so many different ways to get there i do have a somatic therapist and i actually haven't seen her in a little bit of time but but a lot of the work that she would do with me was she had some she had a lot of visual representations and she had something called a pillow that had pillars of identifications of different feelings and models as how to express yourself release energies from your body and it's really interesting it's a different it's a different style than i'm used to than just like kind of standard cog b or talk therapy but i also have found that things like acupuncture and meditation to an extent i am not the best meditator but affirmations and just being super conscious in that world and feeling into my body and not attaching meaning to it more so than it needs to be not assuming every feeling is fact has been big and has been significant and i mean we were in therapy together and that's more standard talk therapy talk therapy osteoart oh an

[Raven Simone]

osteopath yeah we go to an osteopath

[Jonathan Cohen]

now

[Miranda Pearman]

she calls herself a manual therapist and that's been something too that's been really cool and we have kind of our slew and this is so la but like our slew of you know healers and body workers and energy people but but makes a difference i mean it it does what is the shadow

[Jonathan Cohen]

work raven can you tell us a little bit about that i've read about it but i don't remember how it works or what the theory is i

[Raven Simone]

i will i'm starting and learning so i have no idea what i'm doing so let me just start from the top of mind though because at eighteen i told my family that i wanted to go to therapy and they were like what therapists in certain communities are looked down upon you're telling people your secrets they're going to tell your business started there got pretty much the understanding that i have ptsd and i don't have bipolar syndrome but i have like depression that is in that world so took some medicines for that and i took a medicine once and i found myself underneath the table while filming and could not get up and kind of got off of that not really happy with it then i stopped going to therapy and started doing energy work and meditation and nichiren buddhism for a few years until they started asking me for money and i'm like wait a minute by just going through the motions on there realizing my own personal power and energy grids that i can create for myself to release my mind and body from the shackles of pain and allow my higher self to run wayne dyer and all of those self help books really put me on a path of personal mental work however not really touching my anger at all and not realizing i have anger cause it was passive and you're not supposed to be angry when you're little kid i don't i

[Jonathan Cohen]

don't know what that emotion i don't know about that emotion i've actually been working on this lately and my therapist was like name some situations that make you angry and i'm like and i'm like i always have a different word for it it's like well i'm disappointed or like or like i know rage i'm really good with rage but like i've always had to curb that but it was like she was speaking a different language and it was like my brain was working so hard to try and figure out like what is anger and she was like can you imagine it being productive and i was like no and she's like oh but just like sometimes you cry and you feel better i'm like no like when people are angry things break and people get hurt and everybody cries and leaves exactly

[Miranda Pearman]

she's why would i be angry why

[Raven Simone]

would i be angry it ruins people's lives that doesn't make sense well and

[Jonathan Cohen]

how could it be product like what you feel good after being angry you

[Raven Simone]

don't feel good after being angry because after i'm angry it doesn't work it just doesn't happen like who are where have you been on my life i'm just right here suffering with me no

[Jonathan Cohen]

i don't i don't know i don't know what that went is anger i've had therapists be like will you because like some people have tried to like make me like get it out where you like do like a role play with like a person and i was like no i that made me just start crying i was like i don't want yeah and they're like oh well it can be really helpful just like get it out i'm like i don't think that's how it that's not where it's gonna go i don't know but

[Miranda Pearman]

that's she she was like you need

[Raven Simone]

to get rid of your anger you need to go scream at the top of a mountain and she went she took me to like a neighborhood and i was like this no but you

[Miranda Pearman]

know can i tell you what's really interesting about this conversation can i listen though you i'm learning i know you're totally learning but raven is somebody who will look at me and tell me to express my anger and she'll get angry get angry with me tell me why you're angry and i can't and i fear becoming angry so much and i also similar to the conversation earlier and what i kind of say is like i'm a people pleaser but the fear of making anyone feel unhappy or not showing up with oh everything's fine or you were talking about your needs and you know just being like oh i don't really know i don't have any or whatever i i have such a tendency to do that because i'm so afraid of disrupting anything with saying actually wait this didn't work for me or i don't really want to go there today or i'd rather do and so it's like it coexists sure yeah

[Raven Simone]

but there's but i we win miranda we win it's a little different it's a little different because i say that to you what are you angry with me what are you angry at me for or tell me what you don't like about me right i can handle

[Jonathan Cohen]

people why can you handle it say it right wait wait why can i

[Raven Simone]

handle it because i've been handling it

[Jonathan Cohen]

my whole life there you go so i i will take everyone's upset over mine because i'm because my goal is to fix it because then we move

[Raven Simone]

on right i'm gonna move on i learned i learned that we're not supposed to fix it people are supposed to go through their own emotions and whatever

[Jonathan Cohen]

then i don't wanna hear about it i'm live alone and i'm gonna also marry god because i don't wanna be with another human if you have a

[Raven Simone]

problem don't tell me and i won't try to fix it for you because i'm actually outside looking in and this is your issue what's my issue don't worry i'll fix it myself because i'm not i don't need no but what

[Jonathan Cohen]

but what that really is is don't look at me that's i mean for me that's what it is just like no because it's it's true like i can spend all my time thinking about the him in the room the her in the room like i will i'll i'll take on the government also of this country right like i'll spend my time there because what's hardest is saying like oh ouch right i hurt like i have you know who's going to

[Raven Simone]

hold me and when when i am angry like the smallest thing set me off and my entire body is just vibrating at such a speed to where my hand i'm like i'm harry potter i have like magic fingertips of pain coming out to the point where let me see what i do right and tasia is on our publicist is on miranda's here miranda's getting in the industry she loves glam she's like i can't try i can't wait to try out the new glam person and in my head and i've never said this babe so in my head i'm like honey you'll learn to just do it yourself because why be angry at anybody else when they mess up when you just learn to do it yourself and you don't even have to have that irritation like i have such irritation with people

[Jonathan Cohen]

well i was just gonna say what you said is like i mean this is my mom said that when i was little i needed my back rub i wanted my back rubbed a lot i wanted to comfort right and she would get so exhausted like rubbing my back rubbing my back and i would say to her i'll rub my own back like when she would leave and you know and it was a cute story that my mom always told of like she's so independent but what it was was like if it's not how i want i'm gonna take care of it i'm i'm just and that's what it's gonna be and then i can't be upset i don't have to be like i don't have to be disappointed because i took care of it and

[Raven Simone]

no one's ever going to take and i know and i'm learning that this sentence this is an old thought process i'm working on it but no one's ever going to take care of it as well as i will true story and people they ask so much of you and there and i give them one hundred thousand percent which is why i love the japanese culture in their culture and in their work culture if they're building a cup up the person who melts the plastic melts it to one hundred and twenty percent so that the next person can do their job to one hundred twenty percent and next person does their job and then by the end of the product it's gorgeous here in this country we do ten percent and hopefully the next person does eighty so by the time i get it i'm fixing the problem and it's wasting my time and energy let me do it from the beginning i'll make

[Jonathan Cohen]

myself jonathan is sometimes a i don't wanna say a hider of emotions he's a protector of emotions and you know what that's his freaking prerogative he's canadian they're really really sweet but it really bothers me because also you said something that i think is so interesting i pick up on things that other people don't and i wish people would just trust me like i know when he's upset and it makes me so frustrated because he'll just like and also forgive me it sometimes is a dude thing it's the like i'm fine and then they like pout around and huff and puff for like two hours it's like okay but why don't you just like say what's going on but there's this notion like you like you had said it's like i've read so many scripts i know how to communicate so many different emotions so many different ways you think i can't read your face oh you think i can't read your face

[Mayim Bialik]

jonathan that's the problem the flip side of that is when i'm truly not upset but she's expecting me because the script version in her head miranda's rolling her eyes should be mad about this and she's like you're mad right and i'm like no really i'm i'm not i kind of have to eat or i'm like thinking about something else like i'm not thinking about you at all

[Jonathan Cohen]

everyone's thinking about me all the time

[Miranda Pearman]

we are the world narcissist

[Jonathan Cohen]

anyway i

[Miranda Pearman]

have see i have i have the

[Raven Simone]

issue of i know that when i'm in my mood i shut down i had a partner once come to me and she goes you ruined my entire three days and i'm like how did i ruin your entire three days i didn't even talk to you she goes

[Miranda Pearman]

yeah her energy is so strong your

[Raven Simone]

energy is so strong when you are in a mood that no one can function around you that's him thank you

[Jonathan Cohen]

he will suck the joy right out

[Mayim Bialik]

of the way but i'm like it has nothing to do with you just like let me take care of my business and i'll be back when i'm

[Raven Simone]

available and that's my sentence before we

[Jonathan Cohen]

let you go i do want i mean i could just talk to you forever about all this stuff same here

[Raven Simone]

can we do this again this is

[Jonathan Cohen]

super fun but i do wanna give you i do wanna kind of like give you the space also to talk a little bit about the youtube channel that you have which is is so cool it's called eight pm the p and the m being your last names correct it took me a second i was like what happens at eight pm like a dodo and then i kept

[Raven Simone]

reading it's the new happy hour it's

[Jonathan Cohen]

actually like getting into bedtime but you you have you have some really cool content and you talk to really fun people and the two of you are obviously so much fun together and i just love kind of this dynamic so tell us a little bit more about what happens on eight pm well like

[Miranda Pearman]

you said we have some some videos are us in the kitchen some are us talking to cool people some of us are driving in our car so we have a bit of a vlog lifestyle tea time is one of our series where we sit down with a specific topic and just kind of talk about it over a cup of tea but ultimately it's meant to just be a fun feel good real space where people can come and hang out and watch a couple be a couple i

[Mayim Bialik]

love that we heard there's a podcast in the works which is a title that i think is amazing i am

[Miranda Pearman]

started i've started a podcast it's called the things we carry i am a birth doula and that is kind of what what sparked the idea because a lot of people are so interested i also love just talking about mental health and the things people do and the shit we think about and that's what we carry and the things that we carry become defining principles of our lives so let's let's talk about it but

[Jonathan Cohen]

yeah it has really been a pleasure you know raven i've seen you obviously your whole life and i know that you know you have an existence that is so unique and i know that it's hard to feel seen and i would imagine it still is but it is really really such a pleasure to get to talk to you and let you just i don't know like you just seem very comfortable in your skin and i hope that that is the case and it's been really a pleasure to get to know both of you

[Raven Simone]

mayim i want to say that you know i'm sure you know a lot of people in our community and everyone has their own experience but it is really really something special to sit with a female like you who understands the situations that i've been through because being a leader of your own show and celebrity and fame at a young age especially during that time period as well till now like we said at the beginning something's a little different and it's good to hear because a lot of the things that you said about how you are with anger and and work miranda and i talk about on an

[Miranda Pearman]

everyday basis and i have to jump in sorry to interrupt you babe but i want to say this about the both of you which is also very true you both are extremely smart and i think that that can work for and against you in a lot of ways it mostly works against us i know and i get it because although again i didn't grow up the same way you two did i have similarities and that level of intelligence and awareness and self analyzation can become overwhelming at times and can become also extremely isolative and and that's a blessing and a curse in and of itself but you you both are just very smart you're smart it feels okay you are it

[Raven Simone]

feels very kindred and i appreciate you and applaud you and thank you for telling me your truths in that way and jonathan thank you for saying things as well that i haven't even been able to put into words myself because of the work that i've been doing so this is beyond the podcast but honestly this conversation was needed in my life for both of us to hear and i appreciate you both and thank

[Jonathan Cohen]

you thank you so so so so

[Miranda Pearman]

much thank you

[Jonathan Cohen]

i like when i meet people who are so much like

[Miranda Pearman]

me

[Mayim Bialik]

i mean the parallels are fairly

[Jonathan Cohen]

uncanny i mean i assumed i mean it's so much more for her not that it's a competition but like like she said she doesn't know any other existence you know she's had to build so much up to be such a strong confident person it seems like this relationship is just really beautiful and strong and i can't even imagine i mean working all week and then touring all weekend unbelievable really unbelievable and and also she was so loved for how cute she was so it's like the pressure then of like can you have an awkward phase you know like what like you're gonna grow up you have no idea what you're gonna look like when you're sixteen at the time that you're

[Mayim Bialik]

three you know what's relatable though because we always say it's not about the celebrity the celebrity just heightens this performative people pleasing shoving your feelings inside requirement this scanning that happens the what's out in the environment who's going to be upset how do i contort myself to avoid that emotion or that reaction and that hyper vigilance as we talked about in the dustin hoffman episode and we've talked spoken about with jeanette mccurdy she had a huge i think every child who has grown up with significant time on sets has that similar experience but it doesn't matter if you've grown up on set or not if you had a hypercritical parent if you grew up in a stressful environment where your parents were fighting a lot it might not have had anything to do with you but you may have looked externally to try to control or try to analyze is any of your behavior going to contribute to the volatility in the household it's just such a relatable condition that breeds many of the same restrictive coping mechanisms that make people want to disappear or not have needs or constantly looking to evaluate how they're going to come across or what they can do in order to control or impact the environment outside of themselves well and i think

[Jonathan Cohen]

like you know as humans we're constantly juggling you know as we talked about expectations and yes control and you know especially you know for any child we're at the mercy of these people who are taken care of us so we kind of have to go along with all the things that they do right whether it's like oh we take pictures and we put you on television or we go to the zoo or like whatever it is we are all like that's the human experience of being a dependent child and you know as i think you and i have highlighted over and over what happens when you're a child it stays with you you know even if it's in the things that you want to do different or that you want to experience differently like welcome to being human people that's all i have to say about it from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have we'll see you next time

[Mayim Bialik]

it's maya bialik's breakdown she's gonna break

[Raven Simone]

it down for you she's got a

[Jonathan Cohen]

neuroscience phd or two unfiction and now

[Raven Simone]

she's gonna break down so break down

[Mayim Bialik]

she's gonna break it down mind bialix breakdown is supported by elastique where science meets style well in wearable wellness elastique

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Raven Simone]

dish has been connecting communities like yours for the last forty five years providing the tv you love at a price price you can trust watch live sports news and the latest movies plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place switch to dish today and lock in the lowest price in satellite tv starting at eighty nine point nine nine a month with our two year price guarantee call eight eight eight add dish or visit dish dot com today