A (2:55)

So I want. The way that I think about this is sort of like a tree. Okay? We know that many trees have two separate root systems. One of those root systems is fibrous, which is almost like a ton of tiny little roots that make sort of a spongy, like, material. And then the strongest trees also have a very deep taproot that helps them weather drought and difficult conditions. And so when we think about friendships, my opinion is that the people who have the most social strength and who are most equipped to sort of both weather the hard times and do well socially are those who have both of those root systems in place. So that means that it's great to have a network of acquaintances and people who are friendly and to sort of get micro social interactions with a large number of people. In fact, there's some research suggesting that people who have large social networks actually have increased activity in their prefrontal cortex. And so it's associated with a bigger executive function, functioning center in your brain, which is what we all want. But we also know that when suffering hits, when life gets hard, there are a lot of acquaintances that may not show up in the way that we need to survive some of those circumstances that everyone inevitably will experience as an adult. And so the answer is both. We need all kinds of friendship in every definition, Whether that's the friendly acquaintance that you see on occasion and you smile over a shared interest in ordering the same thing at Starbucks. And we need the people that you can call it to in the morning.

B (4:24)

Oh, that's great. And, you know, as you think about that, because one of the challenges for me is, I think, okay, you know, I have some good, genuine social connections, but if you're telling me that I need hundreds of them, like, in some ways, that can be very intimidating and almost exhausting, too, you know, to think, oh, I have to go deep with everybody that I ever, ever meet. So it is sort of encouraging to know that, no, there's a role for both of these types of relationships in our lives, and we all need it. And we probably all have a slightly different balance of the two that I would imagine.

A (4:58)

Absolutely. And we kind of go back to that root analogy. I mean, the fibrous roots grow pretty close to the surface, right. And the tap root is deep. And so we don't necessarily need to bring our entire self to every One of those social interactions that does feel like a lot of exposure. It feels exhausting. But we can benefit greatly, I think, from micro interactions of friendliness with a lot of different people.

B (5:20)

So a lot of this is probably going to be talking about how do we appropriately balance both of those. And I think the benefits of doing this are pretty obvious, and we'll get into it a little bit more. But I'd like to kind of go through it and maybe talk about it in different life stages. So can we talk about how this affects us differently depending on where we are in life? And maybe, you know, what are some of the benefits for young children and then maybe young adults, then middle aged adults, and then those of us later in life? So let's start with children, kind of, what are the benefits of getting this right as a child?

A (5:51)

So the great thing about friendship and social interaction and children is that they tend to be very forgiving. For those of you who may have young kids or have watched or observed young kids. You know, one day it's like, oh, we hate each other and we had this terrible fight, and then the next day they're best friends again. And so there's a lot of latitude, typically with children, to be able to experiment and try on different ways of relating to each other and to sort of have a fast cycle time where you're learning what works and what doesn't. So children tend to be very forgiving. I think that mostly goes away when we grow up, which can lead to, you know, some of the challenges in keeping and maintaining adult relationships. But in addition to that sort of being a really important practice ground for later in life, we also know that children who have more complex social interactions in their youth and adolescence also are showing increased activity in that prefrontal cortex part of their brain. And so it is literally helping their brains develop in an important way that will become increasingly important as they merge into adulthood. And so I will tell you, my kids are outside and there's this sort of roving bicycle gang, and there's a lot of drama involved with that. And I'm like, good, go jump right into that drama. Figure it out. Because the more complex those social interactions are in adolescence, the more they learn how to navigate those things and build those skills early on.

B (7:09)

Oh, that's great. It's probably hidden in that a little charge for us as parents that I'd always jump in and solve all their problems for them and let them sort of sort some of that out as well. All right, how about young adults? What are some of the benefits of true friendships and genuine social connection for young adults.

A (7:27)

So in young adulthood, this becomes so important, particularly as people begin to move out of perhaps family settings. They're living on their own, they're starting their careers, they're used to having, in many instances, built in sort of 24, 7 family support for life's challenges. And so when people merge into independence, it becomes all the more important to build those through friendships. Many times people start to experience sort of a disconnection or a separation from parents that's not only physical in terms of moving out of the house, but that might also be a result of choosing to pursue your own path and your own passions and life interests, not necessarily what mom and dad want you to do, which can sometimes lead to friction. And so during that time, it's so important for people to have again, sort of that network of both acquaintances and close friends that can support you as you go through some of those challenges that may involve some painful or difficult separating from mom and dad. And so I think that's really the critical piece of that part of development. And then you also want people who are in the same boat with you. Sometimes there's a feeling that family members or, you know, parents, as you enter young adulthood, don't really know what it's like anymore. And so having other people that can be fellow travelers in that experience, I think is really important.

B (8:41)

So in that I'm here, you really need these people around you to kind of support you as you figure it all out. But also, I think those individuals will help you figure it out as well. So they're actually. They're the people that you. They're the sounding boards that you need to say, what is this life about? How do we go about this? What are the things I need to be doing and focusing on? Okay, how about a little bit older? Let's go to middle aged adults.

A (9:06)

So middle aged adults, this is where I think friendship gets the most difficult to make new friendships and even to maintain old friendships. So life starts to get in middle adulthood a lot more complicated. You know, you might be adding a spouse or a partner, you might be adding children into the mix. And so there are all these other dimensions for connection that sort of have to align that I think are not necessarily present when you're in your adolescence, college years, early adulthood. Right. There's a phase in many of our lives where it's like, hey, you want to go do something fun? I want to go do something fun. That's like all we need to be able to connect, right? And as you get more complex as an adult, as you get more committed to what your virtues are, what your values are, what you believe in, and also add other dimensions of relational complexity, it gets a lot harder to find people that sort of align with those dimensions. And so it might be that, you know, in college you would say, hey, I think you're cool. You think I'm cool. That's about what we need. And you find yourself in middle adulthood saying, okay, I get along with the wife, but my husband doesn't get along with a husband, or our kids have friction and things start to feel really complicated in that way. But all that said, a huge part of, for many people, early adulthood, but also middle adulthood is the experience of human suffering. Whether that is going through the illness of a child, whether that is the loss of a parent, those things start to happen more frequently and you cannot walk through that alone. I'm. I'm convinced it is nearly impossible to survive without other people to walk alongside you. And so I think the importance of those deeper friendships become really salient in middle adulthood.

B (10:41)

Isn't it just like everything in life? Like, when it becomes most important is often when it becomes the most difficult. And so. All right, and then how about later in life? Let's say we're after middle aged and we're sort of in our later years. What's important about social connections and genuine friendships then?

A (11:01)

I think that is a time in many people's lives where, you know, maybe you've been raising kids and now they're out of the house. Maybe you're dealing yourself with the illness or the passing of a spouse. And so those built in systems that you've had perhaps for years of social connection start to get very fragile. You know, I know for me, as a parent of young children, there are times where I'm like, I would love to be by myself. Like that is I want nothing more than to be alone for 10 seconds. But as those children and things that we build into our lives start to go away, then we need that social support all the more because it's not going to be right there in front of us. I think also as we think about aging healthily, social connection and social isolation and loneliness has a tremendous impact on our physical and psychological health. And I think we'll talk about that in just a moment. But as we begin to experience the breakdown in our minds and bodies, that becomes a really important fortification.

B (11:59)

Very, very well said. Okay. I like that structure. It's really helpful to think about that. So I think it's pretty clear no matter where you are in life, this is something that's super important, and I think the benefits are obvious and we'll get into them more. Before we do that, though, let's talk about the negatives or some of the downsides of not having genuine social connections for us as adults.

A (12:23)

I think what's fascinating to me is that as we continue to find new research in this area, the importance of social connection is just becoming more and more and more clear. Really very Recent research in 2025 found that cumulative social advantage is associated with slower epigenetic aging and lower systemic inflation. At a molecular level, we're able to see, see the benefit of having more social health and social interaction. That cumulative social advantage was measured in a number of dimensions, including your family relationships and how emotionally supportive those are, your involvement in a religious or spiritual community, how much emotional support you experience, and how connected you feel to your community. So the sum of all of those things is actually showing up in our cellular structures. And so that's pretty incredible when you think about it. We also know from other research that social isolation and loneliness is about as bad for your physical health as smoking roughly 15 cigarettes a day. Essentially what this research is saying is that it would be better for you to find a friend and smoke 14 cigarettes a day together, which is pretty staggering. Right?

B (13:35)

Right.

A (13:36)

It's worse for you than drinking six alcoholic drinks a day. So when we think about really maintaining not only our physical health, but also our mental health, and I mean, friendship is like the new magic bullet, if you will, in terms of preventing some of that decline that we're all trying to hold off.

B (13:51)

I love it. We talk a lot about joy and well being in the human Optimization project. And ultimately, in the end, it comes down to three things. Increasing your joy is usually living a life that fulfills your purpose, number one. Number two, making progress towards goals that are meaningful to you. And then number three, genuine social connections and interactions with people. It's, it's a huge lever that I think we all need to pull, but it probably is a little bit different for all of us. Right? So there's, there's some extroverts out there that are saying, yeah, I love it, give me more, give me more. I've been telling everybody about this, and there are some introverts that are listening going, oh, no, I. This means I have to go to parties and talk to people I don't want to talk to. Right. So there, there's different takes on this. So how should introverts and extroverts be approaching this? Do they have to look at it the same way, or is it more nuanced?

A (14:43)

They absolutely don't have to look at it the same way. Kind of going back to a plant analogy, I think about this in terms of people being either airplanes or hydrangeas. So there are some people who are sort of relational airplanes, which just means they need a spritz every now and then, you know, and so they will feel relationally fulfilled with very little involvement with other people. You might have a friend or family member like this who, you know, as long as there's a phone call once a year, like, they think everything's good, great. On the other hand, we have people who are more like hydrangeas, which, you know, they need soil, they need sunshine. It has to be the right acidity of the soil or they'll change colors. And those people probably need a lot more social interaction. So we all have our threshold for what we need to feel satisfied and fulfilled in our social relationships. And I think the important thing is all of these measures that we're sort of talking about in terms of how they affect our mental and emotional and physical health are perception issues. Right? Loneliness is not an objective measure. Like, if you have fewer than three friends, you're going to be lonely. Loneliness is a feeling. It's an experience. And so there are some people who are great with two close friends, and that is enough, and that is great. There are other people where that will feel like they're in the social desert. And so it absolutely is different for people. And I think that adds a layer of complexity. When you're talking about perhaps making family friends or finding friends in different phases of life where one of you might have this level of social need and the other person needs a lot less.

B (16:07)

I think that's wonderful. And so in that is sort of the suggestion that we have to think about this for ourselves. We have to tailor it to ourselves. We all have something different. But I think we have to be really careful in there. Because for somebody who is either, you know, tired, exhausted, or has social anxiety or doesn't want to go to the party for whatever reason, can then use those as an excuse and say, well, I just don't need friends. And in reality, that person may actually be lonely, but they're using their introvertedness as a crutch to not overcome some other impediments that's keeping them from socializing. So I think even though it is up to the individual, we have to Be very honest with ourselves to say, am I fulfilled? Or am I just saying I don't need a lot of friends because I'm trying to avoid these other uncomfortable things in my life.

A (17:02)

I think the other thing kind of building out what you said is that often our acute realization of our need for friends or social support is not urgent until it's urgent, if that makes sense. So it's, you know, we don't go through every day saying, gosh, you know, I just wish I could have more friends in case of an emergency when grief, you know, smacks me in the face. No, like, you might be fine, fine, fine. And then life knocks you down and you look around and say, okay, who do I call in this moment? If the answer is no one, you know, that's going to be an extremely difficult situation. And so we tend to not feel that acute need for friendship until we are in crisis. And when you are in crisis is not the time to go make a friend. Right. It is very hard to make a new friend when you are depressed and weepy. And so it's something that we have to sort of commit to as a discipline and building over time so that when the unexpected hits us, we're ready, we're prepared. So it's almost like a rain jacket. It's not helpful to own a rain jacket if you don't have it near you when it rains. Right. And so making sure that we're prepared in that way, I think is really critical. But it's never going to feel urgent, ever.

B (18:14)

Yeah, I think about that, too. As a physician, I think about health, and so many of us, we wait until we get sick before we start caring about our health. When everybody understands it works so much better. If you're proactive about this, you do the preventative things you need to do, then you're ready when that. When that day hits. And I think friendship and social connection is exactly the same. So that's incredibly well said. So let's jump into our second section here, where we're going to talk about why this is so hard for us as an adult. Because I think most of us will say this now. It's not easy for all children. There are definitely challenges that children face, but generally speaking, it does feel like it was easier when we were younger, and it's getting harder now. So overall, how are we doing, doing as, As a society at having genuine friendships and interactions? Are we getting better at this or getting worse?

A (19:08)

Okay, so I would have to say if I'm going to give this a grade, I'm going to give it an F plus. I think we are doing terrible at this, and I think it's getting worse.

B (19:17)

I like your little twist of optimism there. You're all failing, but I'm going to be optimistic and give you an F plus. Okay, great.

A (19:24)

If that's even a thing. You know, I don't know that I've ever, as a professor, given anyone an F plus yet. So, yeah, I don't think this is going well. So let me share a little bit about why I think that. Unfortunately, I think technology has had a profound impact on how we think about social connection and social relationships. We know that between 2003 and 2020, the amount of time spent engaging with friends in person for sort of the youngest age group in the study, the 15 to 24 age range has dropped by nearly 70% over that time period. The measurement that time period corresponds when we saw the introduction of some different technologies. The smartphone, for example, 24. 7, access to the Internet in your pocket, social media with the like feature. That sort of served as a replacement or a proxy for real friendship and interaction. And so this is getting worse, not better, in terms of how we relate to each other. We also know that Gen Z is the loneliest generation that we have in terms of how we've been measuring the different generations. 71% of Gen Z indicates loneliness, 44% for boomers, and it follows that trend from youngest to oldest. The tricky thing about that is 71% is a pretty alarming number when we think about the impact on physical and mental health. But 44% of boomers are lonely, and that's not a good score either. Right? So I don't think this is something that is only affecting young people. I think this is something that is affecting all of us. And, you know, when you go to a restaurant, it is the easiest thing in the universe to find a table where every single person at that table is staring at their own phone and not communicating. And so I think all of those interactions over time lead to this really weaker social fabric. As a society, where I get particularly concerned is when we think about how AI is evolving so rapidly. Your body, in stress and in periods of acute loneliness, will often release oxytocin, which is sort of nicknamed the tendon befriend chemical in your body because it causes you to seek out or to want to seek out social support. That is your body's signal telling you, hey, this isn't good. Go find a friend. My concern is, for example, with AI companions that are Sort of these avatars that can tell you whatever you want to hear. They're built for you, they're designed around your needs and preferences that people will have as we continue, a more available way to sort of quiet that signal, quiet your body signal that's telling you to go find a friend, just enough so that we satiate the discomfort in that moment, but don't actually ever go and develop real friends. And an AI avatar is never going to come pick you up at the airport or two in the morning. And so I think we have got some really big challenges as we think about this space as a society. And I think it's going to take all of our contribution from the boardroom table to the dinner table to think about how we interact with these new technologies.

B (22:31)

Well, if you look at all that, it is really sobering, those statistics and those stats. And I think it's really easy to look at that and think, wow, this is overwhelming, where this is going to be an absolute unmitigated disaster. And that might be true, that might be the case. But I also think you could realize, okay, this is something that is, we're increasingly getting worse at. It's becoming harder as a society. But if I make some effort to make some small marginal improvement in gains in this space, I might see an outsized return on that investment. And so anytime I see something like this where the statistics are so sobering, I try not to let it depress me too much and say, okay, this then is a real opportunity for growth and this is a real chance for us to actually increase our joy well being and potentially move the needle on some of these things that are really impacting us as a society.

A (23:30)

And that's what encourages me so much. I mean, building on what you're saying, we all have the decision to make for ourselves about how we're going to choose to interact with these technologies. No one's forcing it, right? No one's making us look at our phones when we should be chatting over dinner. And so I think, you know, really starting from the ground up in our own families and in the way that we choose to interact in the world, I think we have a tremendous opportunity in the next decade to shape how humans interact with each other by modeling that in our own lives and, you know, making a choice for ourselves to say, okay, I don't care if the rest of the culture is doing this, we're not going to have our phones up at the dinner table or we're going to talk to each other or we're not going to engage in using AI companions. We all have that control and autonomy in our own space. And so that gives me a lot of hope.

B (24:12)

Yeah, that's great. Well, when we get our third section, you're gonna give us all the answers, so stay tuned for that. But before we get there, I wanna talk a little bit more about why this is still challenging for us. So what are some other reasons that make this uniquely challenging? To form new friendships and social connections sort of after the school age years for us as young adults.

A (24:35)

So we talked a little bit earlier about, you're adding all these dimensions of complexity that now you feel like have to line up. I mean, it used to probably be enough to say we go to the same college and we root for the same football team because that's where we go to school. I also think there are elements of our modern work environment that make this challenging. So, for example, there are many careers in many industries where you cannot stay in the same city and progress. And so there's a tension between do I, I pursue success and pursue the betterment of my career or do I stay put in this community and continue building relationship? Those things are intention. There are some professions where that is not an option. And I'm thinking about the military. I'm thinking about, you know, medical residency, for example. You open an envelope and that's where you're going. And so every time you're sort of uprooted from a community that you spent time in or a place where you spent building friendships, you certainly have the option to take those along with you, but it's not going to be quite the same same. And over time, if you're not putting new investment into interactions in those relationships, they sort of start to fizzle. So I think that's part of it. The other thing is I think we all feel busy. Whether that's actually busy or things that we make choose for ourselves to be busy, you know, sort of self imposed busyness. Sometimes, you know, the investment of time to go make a friend feels like the least urgent thing on a plate. And I'm thinking especially about people who are raising young children who are in very intense careers that require a lot of hours, who are caring for aging parents. You just don't feel like you can keep all the plates spinning and have time, you know, to go out and maybe waste an evening, quote unquote, on someone who you may not get along with.

B (26:15)

What do you think about our worldviews? How does that impact us? Because early, you know, a lot of kids tend to see the world in similar ways. And most things are magical for them. As we get older, we get a little jaded, and we're becoming more polarized in a lot of different aspects, or at least we perceive that we're being more polarized in terms of our political views, maybe our faith backgrounds, our belief systems. And sometimes people can get really entrenched as they get older than that. Does that limit our ability to form true friendships?

A (26:47)

I think it is doing that. I don't think it has to do that. So there are people who have sort of equated their political beliefs with a sense of morality, for example, that cannot see a way to connect with someone who has different political beliefs because they see it as. As moral degradation. There are people who have really firmly held beliefs around, you know, faith or religion, which is not a bad thing, but are not interested in interacting with others who have a different faith experience or religious experience, which is not a bad thing in and of itself. That said, it's going to severely limit the pool of people that you have to choose from. And so while I'm a proponent of choosing those close friendships with people who have similar values. Right. I think that can be a good thing in terms of not having to navigate really different beliefs and values when you're in crisis or in hardship. I also think we should be much less active about firing our friends. And so if I were to sort of give us a grade on which error we're making more often in this present moment, is it being friends with people who are, you know, don't really support our beliefs and there's going to be some conflict there, or firing anyone who doesn't believe exactly what we believe. I would say we're erring on the side of firing. And so I think we can all benefit from being friends with people who are different than us. And we can learn something, and we can learn to navigate that or to find the good in what that person does bring to the table.

B (28:20)

Yeah, I think we talk a lot on this project about knowing who you are and your values and your beliefs and your goals, your mission, your vision. And I think that's really critical sort of understanding who you are and holding those things dearly. And my faith is very important to me, and I hold onto it very dearly. And it shapes a lot of who I am and my political beliefs and my favorite sports teams and all of that. That's important to me. But it also, even though it's important for me to know who all of those or who I am in all of those areas. That doesn't mean I should only look for other people who are exactly like that in order to be my friends. In fact, I should intentionally look for those with differences. And there's a lot of different benefits to that too. So I think it's important to call out. There's a difference in knowing who you are and believing what you believe and knowing why and holding onto that strongly. There's a difference in that versus saying, I'm only going to talk to other people who look, believe, behave and sound just like me. And I think that's dangerous. What are some of the other more self limiting mindsets or biases that we may have as adults that may be holding us back from developing these friendships and connections?

A (29:33)

So I think another element is really when people feel a sense of fatigue, a sense of overwhelm in their own lives where they don't feel like they have margin or capacity for anything, I think that holds us back from making that time investment and building friendships. I think there are also people who might have had difficult friendships in the past that were really hurtful and might be a little gun shy to try again. And so these are people who have experienced betrayal, who have been the victims of, you know, gossip or, you know, manipulative or toxic relationships, who might say, you know what? I'm good. That was so painful. I'm not really willing to stick my neck out again. And I think that robs us sometimes of the opportunity to experience friendship in a different way. That could be wonderful, but we're not going to know it unless we try again. And so I think learning from those experiences, but also dusting ourselves off and saying, okay, I'm going to try again. And maybe I'm going to be a little wiser about who I'm choosing to pursue as a friend this time. Maybe I'm not going to hang out with that person who is gossiping about others because I'm probably going to become the target of it at some point. So I think sometimes we're quick to shut it down and to just say, nope, that was painful. I'm done, I'm good.

B (30:45)

Yeah, that's great. I also think sometimes our ego can play into this too. Just say, you know what? I'm my own person, I don't need anybody else. I can do this on my own. Nobody knows better than I do. All of those things can kind of contribute as well. And if you can't admit your own fallibility, then it makes it really tough for you to let other people in which I think is challenging totally.

A (31:05)

So kind of building on that, there was a quote that I heard that I loved, but it was talking about friendship and social connection. And the concept was that sometimes, for example, we are very committed to our careers. Right. And that is a big part of our identity and what we do. Sometimes we become so unidimensional that we no longer attract friends. Right. No one wants to hear about your job over and over and over again at dinner. And if that's the only part of you that you've developed, you're going to be a lot less interesting to people. You may not be attracting people who want to be friends with you. And so that's something else for us to think about.

B (31:41)

Very good. Very good. You mentioned earlier that we have this tendency to fire our friends if they're not perfect. Can we. I want to dive into that a little bit more. I love that concept. So what are some appropriate expectations for us to have of adult friends? Do we need to expect them all to be perfect?

A (32:02)

That's a quick road to being by yourself. So, you know, choose that road at your own peril. But I think about this in a few different ways. One, I think about the different roles that different types of friends play. For example, I have one friend who. She is going to be the friend that if I'm hosting, you know, a baby shower, she's going to show up early, she's going to roll up her sleeves, she's going to stay late and help with the dishes. Not every friend needs to be that friend. Right. She can be that friend. I have other friends who are going to bring all the fun. Like they're going to plan the fun activity and they're going to organize something outrageous that I would never have the energy or interest in doing. That's the fun friend. That's great. That person I probably don't need to rely on to be my closest confidant, for example. And so I think this idea that you're going to have one friend that meets all these different dimensions of friendship is a myth. And the more we can see people sort of as a bouquet, right? That our friendships are bouquets, and we want all kinds of different flowers in there to meet different needs in our lives, I think brings a richness to that experience. But it also takes some of the pressure off of one person having to be this magical friendship unicorn. That said, when one of those people who provides, you know, this certain element in our friendship bouquet doesn't live up to a different standard or provide something Else that we need from friendship. It gives us a little more opportunity to show grace, you know, to say, you know what? Maybe that person's not the one I go to with that in the future, But I have this other person who has been, you know, a confidant and a. And a trustworthy partner in crime for many years. That's the person I would take that to. So I think building out some different types of friends takes a lot of pressure off one person having to meet all those needs. The other thing I would say is I think recognizing seasons of friendship is really important. There are many things that can cause us to feel like, okay, this. This friendship is sort of either on the back burner or someone who I can just appreciate for being a friend in the past. It might be a move, and you've got a friend who is just not good at keeping in touch over distance. Right? We've got those people who. It's like. It's great when it's in person, but there's not gonna be a lot of interaction from a distance. We might have someone who, you know, you've grown in different directions. Okay. Now I'm married and I've got kids, and I'm pursuing this, and that person has gone in a completely different direction. We just don't feel like we have that much to relate about anymore. Or there can be people who, through various circumstances, will hurt you, right. And they will cause some damage inside of your life. That may be someone who say, you know what? This. This flower needs to be removed from the bouquet. That is no longer worth continuing. But I can still have gratitude for who that person was during a season of my life. So I don't think we have to throw the baby out with bathwater.

B (34:44)

I love it. That's excellent. I love that concept, too, because it's funny how we often expect perfection from everybody in our lives, and then we get frustrated if they don't give us the grace, you know, that we think we deserve, but yet we don't give it to them. I love that concept. You did mention there at the end that maybe there are some folks, a time comes where maybe the friendship does need to be ended or you do need to move away or move on? What are some signs or signals that people can look out for to say, okay, maybe this friendship is not something that I should continue to pursue or put the effort and energy into?

A (35:23)

So the first question I recommend asking is, is there something here to salvage? Right. Maybe you had a painful experience with this friend. I was in a friend group where there was a significant trauma that happened to a person in that group. And there was one friend who just could not believe that what had happened had actually happened because it was so terrible and kept minimizing it and just would not believe that that person was telling the truth. And so there was a very real conversation around, okay, but is there enough about that friend outside of this specific circumstance to salvage? And the answer ended up being yes. And so I think that's your first question. Is there enough here worth salvaging in this friendship? Because it is. You cannot make new old friends. That said to me, there are some things on that list that are sort of require a swift removal. I would say the biggest umbrella category, and this could look a lot of different ways, is someone who chooses to deliberately harm you, you or does things to deliberately harm you, your other relationships or your reputation. That kind of behavior, destructive behavior, which often comes out of envy, I would say that's sort of the root emotion that normally turns a friend into an enemy, is envy. There's really. You can't salvage that. I think. I think that's probably one where you say, you know what? Friend for a season, time to move on. I'm going to invest my energy elsewhere.

B (36:46)

I think it's very well stated. And I think your key there too, is you said it's intentional. So especially, you know, intentional harm or manipulation or deceit or destruction, I think is really a key. Oftentimes that's done unintentionally, in which case then it's a little tougher. You got to sort of sort through and figure out, you know, why did this happen? But I think you're right. If it's intentionally done in that way, then that's a pretty clear signal that things need to change. It's time to move on.

A (37:14)

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B (37:42)

Okay, all right. So now let's get to the third section and we're gonna get some help from you to know how we can actually go about doing this and improve our friendship and social connections. So first of all, what are some signs I can look out for to know if this is something I need to get better at.

A (38:01)

So, I mean, the number one question is just ask yourself and be honest about it. Do I feel lonely? If the answer is yes, this is an opportunity for improvement. But beyond that, I would consider asking yourself these questions. If I were to lose a family member today, if I had a family member that got in a car crash and I were to lose that person today, who would I call and who would answer? And who would let me expose the full weight of my grief to them? If you do not have an answer to that question, if you cannot think of a single person, this is a really important thing to tend to. And so making sure that you have at least one or two people in your life who will pick up the phone, who you know you could share the full weight of your suffering with, I think is critically important. You may not need more than that. That might be good, right? But you do have to have at least one or two, I think. And so I would ask those two questions. And then lastly, I would ask yourself, how much time in my week do I spend interacting with others in real life? And if that number, for example, is really low because you are in a remote environment, a remote office environment, for example, which we know increases the presence of loneliness. If you are someone who does a lot of deep work and you spend a lot of time just focused and kind of by yourself, or if you're someone who is like, you know what? I'm ordering food to be delivered to my doorstep and I'm on my phone all the time, I'm not really interacting with others, I think that's a good litmus test that you might need to be rethinking how you reincorporate some social interaction.

B (39:29)

Great, great cues, great cues. So now how do we do it? Do you have sort of a framework or a step by step plan? If we've gone through and said, okay, I recognize the importance of this, I could be doing a little bit better now, how do I do it? What are the steps that I can take?

A (39:45)

So there's sort of four things that I think about. The first one is getting a really good honest assessment about where you are. Write down a list of who you would call in order in the event of a tragedy, who would that be? Then think about what am I doing to actively maintain those friendships, right? Am I just drawing on past experiences that we've had, or am I continuing to pour into those. Those. What am I doing to maybe develop or invest in some new friendships that might be more in that sort of surface level network category. But those people have potential for being deeper friends with a little bit of nurturing. So starting with that good assessment, I think is thing one, you're saying we

B (40:23)

should really be assessing sort of both kind of the, sort of the superficial root system, the superficial network of acquaintances and people that you know and interact with. And also the deeper truth, you need to look in both levels. Is that correct?

A (40:36)

I think looking in both levels, because for many of us, that deep level starts with the, with the root, you know, surface level. So is there anyone there that I can sort of start intentionally cultivating a friendship with that maybe could move into that deeper category? I think the other thing in that assessment, though, to be careful about is sometimes we have really big expectations for how many of those close friends are reasonable to have. I think more than five is pretty rare, pretty unusual. And so if you feel like, gosh, I've got a few, but I need more, it might be that just two to four is great, and that's about what you can reasonably maintain, and that's okay. So sometimes we feel like, or we see on social media, oh my gosh, this person had a 40th birthday party and 60 people came on this travel trip. You kind of feel like you're missing out on this giant network of close friends. For most people, two to four is, is a pretty great number. That's, that's an A plus.

B (41:31)

Very good. Okay, good. So first one, assess where you are. What's, what's your, your next sort of step in the process.

A (41:38)

Okay, so let's say you have some deficiencies. So if, if in your assessment, you're like, I'm good, I just need to be intentionally investing in these people, that's great. But let's say you have some deficiencies or you're in an environment where you've had a big shakeup in your social fabric. Maybe you've been relocated for work, you're in a new city, you've had a child for the first time, and your single friends don't want to hang out anymore. Become a regular somewhere is my next best advice. And that was advice from my college roommate. When I expatriated and worked overseas in a number of jobs, I was, you know, didn't know anyone in the cities that I was working in. And so the idea of showing up to the same time in the same place to become a regular sort of sets the table for you to start building connection or at least feeling a little bit seen as a human while you're building Other friendships. So it might be saying, okay, Tuesday morning at 9 o' clock, I am always going to go to this coffee shop and I'm going to say hello out loud to people, right? And maybe a few weeks in you're going to say, okay, I've seen the same person there every week. I'm going to introduce myself and say hello. But that becoming a regular somewhere, maybe it will wind up ending up in a friendship or maybe not. But it does create just enough feeling of social interaction to hold you over while you're investing in building some scaffolding for longer term friendship.

B (42:53)

And here, yeah, that's one of the big differences between the adults and the kids, right? Kids are regulars everywhere, right. Like they're regulars at school, they're regulars on the playground, they're regulars on their soccer team or you know, whatever it is, they're regulars and they're piano group. So whatever they're doing, kids tend to be regulars at. They're regulars with their neighbors. And so we're sort of still on a page out of the playbook from the kids when we, when we do that as adults, which is great because that's not necessarily baked into our lives as adults. So easy, easy to do that as the next step. The next step.

A (43:24)

Okay, well, and I would just adding one more quick thing to that. If you have the option to work remote or to work hybrid or to work in the office, maybe one of your steps toward becoming a regular is going into the office at the same time each week. Right. Or the same day so that you have regular interactions with your peers. Because proximity is one of the greatest predictors of friendship over the course of our lives.

B (43:45)

And I would also say too, if you think, if you look around, say, well, I don't really see a place where I can become a regular or I don't see a group I can join first, I'd say look a little harder because you're probably missing and I'm sure they're out there. But also form your own, you know, find other people are dealing with the same thing. Say, hey, you know what, I have four co workers and we're all remote, we never see each other. Let's get together once a week for coffee or breakfast or to have book club, pod club, whatever. Form your own if you need to as well. I think is a really good thing to think about.

A (44:17)

Yeah. So that's one of the next things that I recommend, and this is straight out of my mom's wisdom, is you're responsible for your own fun this is something she used to always tell me. I'm not here to entertain you. I'm not here to make friends for you. You're responsible for your own fun. And so if you're not getting invited to the super bowl party, throw the super bowl party, right? If you're not getting invited to the thing that you want to be invited to, then fine, plan your own and invite other people into that, Be the party starter, even if that is not in your nature. You have an opportunity to create a place for connection for other people. And over time that's going to get less awkward and they'll start returning the favor and things get more normalized. But if you feel like no one's inviting me to be part of their social circle, well, all right then. Then you invite other people in, right?

B (44:58)

That's great. And that doesn't mean you're going to have to do that all. You don't always have to be the one that hosts. But you go, people will see, they realize that you, that you want to engage, then you're more likely to be invited to their as well and easier to become a regular somewhere else after that. Okay, great. So assess where you are, become a regular somewhere and know that you're responsible for your own fun. Any others?

A (45:19)

Lastly, I think we have to be the friends that we want to have. If I want people to show up for me in hardship, if I want the kind of friend that will answer the phone at 2 in the morning, then I need to be that kind of friend. You know, if I want somebody to remember my birthday, then I need to be the friend that remembers birthdays, right? And I will tell you, that's a big weakness of mine. It's like that part of my brain just is not working. And so I think we have to choose to show up to be those kinds of friends that we want before we even have those friends, right? It's not. We don't wait for other people to be there for us in that way before we show up in that way. So I think one of the things that we can do is sort of take the first step and saying, hey, I'm going to show up, I'm going to send that person a text because I was attentive to what they said they were going through, and I want to make sure they feel seen and known. And so I'm going to go the extra mile and checking up on that person in bringing by a meal, right? And so I think the more we invest in people in that way, the more we build up in our bank account, right. That when we have to make a withdrawal because we're going through a period of suffering, people are ready.

B (46:17)

All right, great framework. So in order to build social connections and friendship, number one, assess where you are. Number two, become a regular somewhere. Number three, know that you're responsible for your own fun. Number four, be the friend that you want to have. Awesome. So if we do that and we start to develop these friendships, any advice for us on maintaining them? Because I think sometimes it requires a certain level of effort to build them, but then you have to prune it. You know, use the bouquet analogy and the root analogy. We have to prune these. How do you do that?

A (46:51)

I think the first thing here is making sure that you're thinking about what does that person need? If you are a hydrangea, right. That needs all the things, and you're dealing with an airplane, you calling them all the time to catch up is going to feel exhausting to them. Right. And so I see a lot of friendship friction that happens when there's sort of a mismatch between what people need out of that relationship. One person ends up feeling unloved or uncared for. The other person ends up feeling exhausted. So I think starting with, what does this other person need from me? To feel loved and cared for is important. I also think, make a routine and show up for that routine. This can be like any other element of discipline where we say, you know what? I'm going to make sure that I am inviting someone to coffee once a week. I'm going to make sure that once a month, I invite a friend to go on errands with me or to go on a walk with me. I'm going to make sure that every other week when I'm in the car, I am calling an old friend to catch up and say hello, knowing that, you know, three out of five times, they're not going to be able to answer. And so I think it's okay to schedule this like we would schedule any other discipline in our lives, obviously leaving room for spontaneity and flexibility in that. That. And then the next thing I would say is, you know, think about the onion. Onions are delicious, right? Depending on how you prepare them. And there are layers to that. And so there are some people that on the outside, you're like, this is an onion that is unattractive, that smells bad. You know, I don't see a lot of good in this person. I don't think it's friendship material. But there are Some people who you might come across or interact with. When you start peeling apart those layers, there is a gem inside, just a wonderful human being. And so check yourself on sort of how much you're evaluating people by their outward appearance. When you think about friendship material, are you prioritizing people that look like you, think like you, act like you? I'm only going to hang out with other high achievers or people in my discipline who are high performers. Those things are really going to limit some of the gems that you could find that will add a lot of variety and spice to your life. And then lastly, I would say we have to show tremendous grace both for ourselves in recognizing that we might make some friendship mistakes and show up and fumble a little bit, but also in allowing other people to have a do over. Everybody puts their foot in their mouth sometimes, everybody messes up sometimes or drops the ball or doesn't show up in the way that we want them to. How can we show grace and give people another shot, assuming that it's not, you know, intentionally destructive behavior?

B (49:06)

All right, Kathryn, this has been fantastic. This is a great conversation. I really like how you've approached this and this is very good. And obviously it's a lot of work that we need to be doing inwardly. It's also a lot that we need to do when we look to others. Been taking notes. I'm going to summarize those quickly and then I'm going to give you a chance to summarize and re answer our three big questions here. So first, I like when we started off with definitions on what genuine social connections and true friendship are. I love your analogy of the root system. You sort of have a little bit more of a superficial network of acquaintances, which is good to have, you need to have that. But then also these deeper roots or the sort of the core friends that you have. And you also have to recognize that you know that that number of deep core true friends is not going to be in the thousands, that it's usually only a few, less than five for a lot of people. But it's helpful to think about that. We also talked about the benefits for children, young adults, middle age and later in life. And you laid that out very nicely. There's very clear benefits to all of us at every stage of the process. We talked about some downsides of not having friends and a lot of the physical changes that happen to our body and that it reduces our physical health as much as smoking or drinking in some ways also shortens our lifespan, increases inflammation, and also sort of Steals our joy and takes meaning away from our life if we don't have them. We talked about how introverts and extroverts can be different. We all have different needs. The key is knowing what it is you want and sort of defining it for yourself Overall as a society. You gave us some very sobering statistics that show that we are not doing very well with this and we're heading in a bad direction, which is incredibly discouraging. But I think that that shows this is a real opportunity for us to take control and change the narrative. Because this is something that is mostly in our control as adults. And so we have to do that. We have the choice. We talked about some of the challenges as adults. You're moving locations, your career is a priority. You're adding responsibilities by, you know, having, getting married, expanding your family, taking on different roles. We have less time. Sometimes we have polarizing worldviews. So these are all real challenges that you have to be aware of and navigate. But it's important to know who you are as a person. But that doesn't mean that all of your friends need to look exactly like you as well. We went through a lot of good self limiting mindsets and then talking about setting appropriate expectations for adult friends. I really like your analogy of the bouquet of friends. You need friends of different types of that you can rely on for different things. And also recognizing that all friendships have seasons and they breathe a little bit and you have to allow for that. And then you gave us a good four step plan to think about. So in order to increase your friendships and genuine social interconnections, four steps. Number one, assess where you are. Both think about that superficial network and the deeper friends. Number two, become a regular somewhere. Number three, know that you're responsible for your own fun. And number four, be the friend you want to have. And then when I ask you about maintaining friendships, you gave me four other great steps. Number one, think about what the other person needs, which I think is fantastic. Number two, make a routine. So set a schedule. Monthly coffee dates or weekly whatever to schedule the time. Number three, know that people have layers like an onion. Don't just judge them by the outside, look for the gem on the inside. And then number four, show grace. Very wise words and incredibly helpful. Now let me give you a chance to summarize. I'll re ask you our three big questions. You can give the rapid answers here. So number one, big question. Why is friendship and social connection so important for us as adults?

A (52:43)

Because chronic loneliness is ruining our brains. Our bodies and killing us faster.

B (52:47)

Oh, well said. Number two, why is it so hard to form and maintain these friendships as adults?

A (52:55)

Because it takes time, intentionality, and it never feels urgent, but it's one of the most important things we can be doing.

B (53:00)

Great. And then question number three. What practical, repeatable behaviors can help adults form, deepen and sustain real friendships in modern life?

A (53:10)

Give it the effort and attention that you would give to anything else that matters to you in life. Be intentional about it. Make a routine, commit to some discipline in this area and give people a lot of grace. All of us are trying to do the best that we can. And don't fire your friends too quickly.

B (53:26)

Oh, great. All right. Now for our challenge or call to action. I mean, you've given so many different examples of places where people can start. And I'm going to tell folks, number one, I think start by saying, recognize that you have the choice in this. You don't have to be a part of those sobering statistics that Kathryn shared with us in the middle. You can actually choose to rise above that and do better and there will be real benefits. So number one is recognize that it's a choice. And then for your next step, I think really just you went through that sort of four step plan with the first one being assess where you are. And I think that's what I would encourage our audience to do now after listening to, just stop and think, okay, where am I? How is that superficial network of socialization? Do I have those acquaintances and people that I bump into and talk to? Do I have enough of those? And then how about the deeper friendships? Do I have enough of those? And if, if not, then move on to the next step. So really take some time to sit down and assess where you are and think about what you're doing. Katharine, this was excellent. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot. Very helpful. Thank you for joining us and letting us learn from your wisdom and experience.

A (54:30)

It's been an honor. Thanks for having me.

B (54:31)

Great. To our audience. Remember to live intentionally, consistently better. Keep striving to be the best human you can be so you can give your gifts back to the world and never stop optimizing. Thanks for listening to the Mayo Clinic Human Optimization Project. If you liked this episode, hit subscribe and leave a review. It helps others find us know someone who might benefit. Share the episode with them to join us in our mission to help as many people as possible become the best humans they can be. Have feedback or a topic idea. Email us@OptimizeAYO.edu and be sure to look for us on Instagram X and YouTube.

A (55:11)

This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and should not be relied upon for medical, professional or legal advice. Always consult with a qualified professional for any questions. The appearance of any guest does not imply an endorsement of them, their employer, or any entity they represent. The views and opinions expressed by the guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mayo Clinic. Reference to any product, service, or entity is for informational purposes only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Mayo Clinic.