A (3:33)

I love it. So this is clearly something beyond just increasing brain power or increasing your intelligence or your ability to memorize a bunch of facts or contain information. This is much more about impact and quality.

B (3:48)

Absolutely. Increasing brain power is part of the process. It happens naturally. When you're able to let go of distractors, brain is able to focus much better. But it is really about having more authentic experiences, more peak experiences, collecting amazing memories. That's what it is about.

A (4:13)

I think we could all go for that. Well, I think oftentimes it's really challenging for us to do this. Part of that is because we have so many things that sort of drain our brains and reduce our mental and they're kind of a drag on us all the time. So what are some of the primary things that are detractors from us and that take away from that?

B (4:34)

Yeah, if we were to list all the detractors, it'll be a very long list and very individual list. I mean it's external situations and what our mind thinks. Right. From global news to what's happening to Dow Jones Industrial Average today, to what is happening at schools or in local areas, at workplace, et cetera, et cetera. I sometimes think about when you go to a restaurant, you do not tell the server, just get me whatever you pick your dishes, you say, you know, get me this and get me that. So you're choosing. Right. And so the biggest challenge is our inability to choose or our lack of awareness and lack of influence over our attention and emotions. Now the problem is that lack of awareness is very expensive. If we go back to the restaurant example, if you leave your mind as is to its default state, it's going to tell the server, get me the yuckiest food, you know, the one I'm allergic to and that'll make me throw up tomorrow. Those are the kinds of thoughts our brain thinks instinctively because we have huge negativity bias that our ancestors have gifted to us. So this, all these external and internal stressors, they converge down to the main challenge, which is our inability to influence our attention and emotions. So we do not choose what we allow to be our experience. Because at any time there's trillions of bytes of data that is hitting your sensory apparatus. What matters is not what's on the menu. What matters is what is on your table, because that is what changes the experience. So happier people do not have better things happening in life. They are people who are choosing to pay more attention to what is nurturing, what is meaningful. So I think that is the primary challenge. That primary challenge, I feel, is within us and totally under influence, our influence. And that is why this can be very empowering.

A (6:49)

You talked a little bit about what our brain tends to do kind of automatically, and I've heard you speak of different modes, that the brain has sort of different primary operating modes. Can you tell us a little bit more about that kind of what. What we tend to naturally do and then how we need to be shifting that?

B (7:06)

Yeah. And that is what sort of partly defines who we are as human beings compared to all other animals. So most of the, you know, vertebrates, most animals have some. Some basic housekeeping functions of the brain. You know, as we are chatting, our hearts are beating and lungs are breathing and so on. But beyond that, almost every animal is driven by automatic mode of the brain. I mean, there's no monkey that is going to choose lettuce over donut or grape. Right. Most kids also will not do that. So that is the automatic brain. That is brain where your attention is just downstream. It is not in your control. You may have experienced. You go home and your spouse is telling you three things, and your mind is already in emails because you know exactly what is going to come. And then they catch you because what. When they are. When they're. Because you sound very agreeable. Right. That's what my wife tells me.

A (8:03)

I've been there.

B (8:04)

Yeah. You're not negotiating. There's something wrong here. Right. So. So that is the automatic mode of the brain. You're in a meeting and you're thinking about, did I leave the electric iron on at home? And now you're. You. You miss, like, next five minutes of meeting. Right. And. Or you see someone on your calendar and you're like, oh, my gosh, I have to meet Amit again in. In, you know, to. But there is the second mode of the brain, which is the more focused, which is the more intentional mode of the brain. And that is what makes us human. Where you choose to pay attention to what is purposeful, what is meaningful. You choose to stay silent when, let's say a patient is talking to you. You know exactly what they're gonna say. But you know, you allow, you have the diagnosis, but you allow them to speak because you know that that is polite and that is healing for them. You play ping pong 5 year old, as boring as it is, you give standing ovation to your 8 year old's dance performance even though it was completely out of sync. Right. And that is intentional. You are choosing to be that way. Forgiveness is intentional. I was hurt, but I choose to forgive. Prayer is intentional, Right? Working sleep deprived is intentional. Driving slow on a road is intentional. So those are the two modes, focused or intentional mode, or default automatic mode. And our brain sort of seesaws between those two modes all day long. When you're fully human is when your focus mode or intentional mode is active. That is when you're being fully human. This is not that you're not human, but it is not as nurturing to yourself or to the society.

A (9:58)

And is there any data that tells us roughly how much time we spend in each of those two modes? How much are we spending in that automatic default mode versus the uniquely human focused mode?

B (10:10)

Yeah, so some of the studies were like roughly 50%, but those studies are like 15, 20 years ago. Some of the more recent studies talk about 60 to 70 to 80%. So we're spending bulk of our time in our default mode. It relates to how many open files you have in your head. Let's say if someone gets a phone call from a doctor and they say, oh, call me back asap, I need to tell you about your test result you had. They will spend all weekend in their default mode. I would say that the faster the Internet, the greater the technological development, which means there are more open files in our head, which means we are more in default mode. Very interesting that the more we are succeeding in technology, succeeding as a species, the more opportunities we are creating for ourselves, which means the more open files we have in our head, which means we are more in the default mode. By the way, the more you are in default mode, the less happy you are and the greater your predisposition to anxiety, depression, attention deficit and dementia. So the more successful we will be materially, the more important miserable we will be emotionally. And it's mathematical. So we know exactly what we have to concurrently develop as we develop technology, which is to help people thrive.

A (11:36)

So unfortunately, in that default motor automatic mode. We're less happy, we're less successful, we're more miserable, a little more tortured. And it sounds like we're trending towards spending more time we're heading in the wrong direction.

B (11:50)

Is that true emotionally? Yes. We are a species that suffers the most emotionally. Have you ever heard of sharks having panic attacks? Or lions having generalizing sinny disorder? But we experience fear every single day. Most humans experience worry and fear. Most humans struggle with low self worth. Any monkey has low self worth. At least they can't articulate. My dog has absolutely. He feels like he's the king of the world.

A (12:19)

King of the world, right?

B (12:20)

Absolutely. Of the world anyways. At least the neighborhood. So we are, unfortunately, we are sort of creating this world and it is happening through the blood and sweat and tears of our emotional mind. And so we are making ourselves emotionally worse. Unfortunately, that's what we are doing.

A (12:39)

And this it's emotionally worse. But all of this time that we're spending kind of wandering and unintentional and in these negative areas and we're ruminating and all of that, it's actually metabolically expensive for us as well as humans. Is that right?

B (12:55)

In some ways I wish I could lose weight by just thinking, you know, I'm just gonna think for next two hours and I'll be £2 less. No, it doesn't happen that way because brain consumes, as you know, about 20% of body's caloric consumption. And the amount of energy brain consumes when you're mind wandering versus, let's say you're focused playing chess or doing a procedure is about the same. So but the problem is that when you are, and this is how it's metabolically expensive, that when you are ruminating a lot and experiencing negative emotions, you experience cognitive fatigue, you develop mental fatigue, you feel tired, and you know what fuels hunger? What do you do when you are tired?

A (13:45)

Yeah, you eat.

B (13:46)

You eat.

A (13:46)

Yes.

B (13:47)

And that is true because anytime you eat anything with carbs actually makes you feel energized a little bit for a short period of time. So it is metabolically expensive in that our cognitive and emotional fatigue predispose us to excessive caloric intake subconsciously. And that is what actually predisposes to metabolic syndrome, weight gain, and you know, all those downstream consequences. So that is how it's metabolically expensive.

A (14:16)

So it has physical ramifications as well, in addition to the mental and emotional ones that you already went through.

B (14:22)

Absolutely. I think. Tell me any human being who does not eat emotion, I Did that yesterday. You know, there's something sort of challenging. Not stressful, stressful, challenging. And I'm like, I'm gonna eat. And then once you are in that downward spiral, you're like, what the heck? And you just go for it.

A (14:43)

Right? Right. Yeah, absolutely. Well, can you say so obviously, our goal is hopefully to spend more time in this focus mode, less time in the automatic mode. But does that mean there's no role for the automatic mode? And is there any role for just kind of turning our brains off, allowing our minds to wonder aimlessly?

B (15:03)

So let's say if my blood pressure is 170 over 100, do I want my blood pressure to be like, zero over zero? No, I want it to go down from 170 to 140, so by 20%. So similarly, we don't want zero default mode. And it's not possible. It'll not happen. There's a reason default mode evolved. It evolved to secure safety for us, and we can chat about that. And so it connects past with present with future. It gives you a sense of coherence. It helps you imagine. It helps with divergent thinking. It helps with positive imagination. Daydreaming. I love daydreaming. Right. Even better than sleep. So it definitely serves a purpose. But I do not want default to just take over my life. It's like you have a perfectly healthy bowl of soup, and you put four spoons of salt in it, so that just takes over. So no default is absolutely needed. In the right dose. And off late, that dose has increased. And what we're trying to do is just decrease the dose of the default mode.

A (16:12)

That's all, I think, for a lot of it. And we'll kind of slide into our second section here where we're going to talk about why this is so challenging for us. But I think, think for many of us, this is something that we don't really think about. We're not intentional about it, and we're not focused on it, and we're not really dialed in. And so it just sort of happens. And I'm wondering, why is it hard for us to control our minds and control how much time we're spending in these different zones? Is this a character flaw that I have, or is this a biological problem? As humans, why is this so challenging?

B (16:47)

Yeah, you know, I think it is challenging to be in the focused mode first because it's upstream. It is expensive. As someone said, men would rather die than think. And so it is effortful. That is number one. The other thing is our Ancestors survived with wandering attention. So right now, like you can, our eyes are. We are a unique species. We have been both predator and prey. But our eyes are forward facing. So when my eyes are forward facing, I can see, what, 160 degrees. I cannot see anything behind me. So if I'm in a forest, the only way I'm gonna survive is by looking around. You go to the airport, watch people. Do they have really focused eyes and have done that. Their eyes are constantly wandering because that is what helps you scan the world. We're not like deer with eyes here. You do this, this, and you scan the whole 360 degrees. Right. So for us to survive, we had to have wandering attention externally. And then what has happened is over the last few hundred years, our external threats have internalized. You know, you're not worried about someone attacking us in this room, but there's a lot that may be going on in your head at this point. So we have more threats internally. We can imagine more threats. And so that attention, which was external internalized, and it is still that wandering focus. So we're designed that way. And it's like effortless. And so that's why, I mean, it's like you roll a rock, it's like gravity, it just goes down. So you leave yourself to default. You will have wandering attention. That's just the way it is. Okay, so but with. With effort and with intention, you can train your focus mode so that eventually what happens is focus becomes your default.

A (18:47)

Okay, you're gonna teach us how to do this in the third section, which I'm excited to hear, because I think that it's gonna be challenging for a lot of us to do, but I think it's one of those things that's really critical for us for all the reasons you've listed. This is a really big issue for all of us. And so I think that we need to invest some time and effort and energy in doing it. Earlier you mentioned that we have a bias towards negativity. And I'm curious, what exactly is our negativity bias and why is it so prevalent in humans?

B (19:19)

Yeah, so you had two ancestors, like, go up 50 generations. One was Uncle P and the other was Uncle O. Uncle O was optimistic, Uncle P was pessimistic. Right. And they're both sitting in a cave and there is loud sounds they hear. And Uncle O, optimistic guy says, oh, it's a hedgehog. I'll be okay. Uncle P said, oh, it could be a lion. Better take cover. Guess what a proportion of the time it was a lion or a tiger, and all the O's got eliminated. So peas have lived to transmit their genes. And so that's why when you're lying on a bed of flowers, if there's one thorn that is sticking in your leg, that's what you're gonna feel. And so we have this negativity bias because for our ancestors, it had survival value, and it continues to have survival value for us if you are in a forest kind of situation. But what has happened is that we were trying to preserve or safeguard our physical body. Now we are safeguarding our emotional body. So, I mean, think about kids, think about youth, think about us where, like, you know, with my kids, for example, it's like they don't want to be made fun of. They don't want to be looking awkward or weird or, you know, cringy or anything like that. Right. That's a big deal for them, and they'll let go of opportunity. A lot of boys and girls don't raise their hand in the class, even if they know girls more than boys know the answer, because they don't want to look nerdy for whatever reasons. Right. So we're very sensitive to emotional body. So that is why that negativity bias has been generated to us, has been passed on to us by our ancestors. It's evolutionary baggage that we carry.

A (21:17)

And we're clearly living in a different world now than they did, too. So we need some different strategies. I think one of the other things that we think about are all of the other things going on in our lives in these other domains of performance and how everything really ties together. So I'm curious your thoughts on how do other things like sleep, nutrition, exercise, and all of that sort of stuff really play into our ability to get more mileage out of our brains?

B (21:45)

Yeah. You know, there's two organs in the body that are affected, two organ systems where one is the brain, the other is the immune system. They both have memory. They're both very similar, actually, in some ways, even though the immune system is sort of distributed across the body. Body. So what happens is, and it boils down to the efficiency of brain's operation. If you haven't slept well, your brain is full of gunk, and it is not able to because the synapses have amyloid fibrils, unreabsorbed neurotransmitters that are cleared during the night, and they're all sitting there. If you do not have good nutrition, then brain doesn't have the micronutrients to Create its own neurotransmitters and so on. So basically all of the unhealthy lifestyles predispose to willpower depletion. Your core power that you have to exercise self control, be it not yell when you want to yell in a meeting, to showing the finger to a bad driver, to, you know, being patient with your child at the exit door when they want, they're fighting about the color of their hair clip and you're getting late for the meeting, to everything else in life, it needs energy, and that is inhibitory control, which is a core executive function. And so if you are not healthy in other ways, you won't have the energy to have self control. And that's why they say hangry. Right. I am convinced that anytime someone says, think about the last time you said something, you're like, what was Chris thinking? How could I say that you were willpower depleted.

A (23:36)

Yeah, absolutely. I think this is. It's great. And really you talk about how being in the focus mode is sort of. It's upstream, it's effortful, it requires intentionality. And I think really anything in our life that is upstream requires us to have some space built in, some sort of buffer zone, because we need more energy to behave this way. So we need to have that energy in reserve. And we will be more likely to have that energy in reserve if we're taking care of some of these other things. Proper nutrition, sleep, exercise, et cetera. I think, though that can often be discouraging for folks. Okay, here's another one. They're telling me I got to eat and sleep and exercise. All things that are boring, I don't want to do. But I would also say too that I think that there's potential positive synergy in that. And people may say, well, this is going to be really hard. But I think doing this will help you, you know, controlling your brain and being in focus mode will help you with those other things. Improving your diet, nutrition sleep, and improving your diet nutrient sleep will help you with this. So I think that there can be a lot of positive synergy between all of these different things for people.

B (24:45)

Absolutely. Actually, I think it will be lovely for us to evolve to a point where we all start enjoying our brain. You know, this is what happens to me sometimes. Let's say my family's at the mall and they're like, oh, we're leaving you in this coffee shop. Oh, no, no, no, you'll be bored and we'll go and shop for some clothes. Don't worry, I have my Brain. I love my brain and I have to enjoy my brain. That's my usual response and that's what I actually feel. So what happens is that when you intentionally cultivate your attention and your mindset under your influence, guided by your values, then you start enjoying the simple cup of coffee or smile of a stranger or a good thought, a creative idea. And those little things can send you into a flow moment. And certainly behind all this is a very strong sense of purpose that is guiding you. Once that purpose at North Star is guiding you, then a lot of details again, lettuce versus donut. You don't. You know, like my nephew said, I enjoy the feeling of, well, being much better than a bowl of ice cream. I enjoy being fit in my body much better. And I think that's what happens to you.

A (26:13)

That's a great analogy. What about for people who struggle with overthinking? This is one of the things where it's not clear to me is that, is that too much focused mode and you're being too focused, or is that a problem with the default mode? A lot of folks are this way, they have an issue or a question or something in front of them and they can't let go of it. They just keep thinking about it and ruminating over and over. Or maybe they're thinking about a past experience. How does that fit into this sort of default automatic mode versus focus mode?

B (26:42)

Overthinking. Yeah, that's like 90% of humans, most of us are overthinking. Ruminator. So basically, here is a difference. Am I choosing my thoughts or is thinking happening to me now? When you're choosing your thoughts, then you are in the focused mode. When thinking is happening to you that you're struggling with, that is your default mode. Because now you're not in the driver's seat. And I think most of the time we are overthinking because maybe there's uncertainty in what we are tackling, maybe there's uncertainty in our own mind about what are our preferences, what are our values. But when you have very clear North Star, then those doubts tend to become smaller. For example, not gloating, but my North Star is. I strive to create a happier, hopeful, kinder world for all children. So. So that is clear to me. I try to do everything that answers to that North Star of mine. So there is very little overthinking, there's very little doubts, there's very little confusions, very little greed or fear. And so you sort of stay true to your values and you're not Easily pulled by distractions or greed or other allures that can take you off the path.

A (28:09)

And this is a concept that comes up a lot on this podcast, is knowing who you are is one of the first steps in all of this too. So understanding your values, vision, mission, purpose, all of those sort of things really sets the stage for all of the topics that we discuss here, which I think is great. So thank you for that and I love, I'm going to say it again, your quote. Am I choosing my thoughts or is thinking happening to me? Which is one the of wonderful.

B (28:36)

Curious about the future of healthcare. Tomorrow's cure, the chart topping and Ambi Award finalist podcast from Mayo Clinic brings it to you today. I'm Kathy Werzer and in this new season I sit down with researchers, doctors and industry experts who are leading the way in medical innovation. From cutting edge technology to breakthrough treatments, we'll explore how new solutions are improving and even saving lives. Follow to market tomorrow's cure wherever you listen to podcasts.

A (29:05)

Okay, so let's jump into the third section. Here we'll try to get at some solutions about how we can actually get better at this. Now I think it's pretty clear we kind of understand what we're talking about. We understand how important it is that we get better at it and sort of choosing our own thoughts. What are some of the steps that we can take to maximize our brain's efficiency so we can get the most mileage out of it? Is there any sort of of framework or step by step process that we can use in this three steps?

B (29:34)

And you don't have to read any therapy, any neuroscience, any psychology, any philosophy, because those three steps capture everything. The first step is awareness and it is awareness of your brain, awareness of you as a human being, you as an individual, awareness of the world. How is the world evolving and what is my place in it? So awareness, where your eyes are wide open and you are converting your knowledge into wisdom. Second is attention. Attention is developing intentionality in what you choose to focus, what you allow to be on your table. Let's say if your spouse doesn't load dishwasher exactly as you like, are you gonna focus on that or are you gonna focus on the fact that they are a flexible kind human being? I mean, we're surrounded by imperfect people and including our own past actions. Am I choosing that? I mean, you were stopped by a cop and given a ticket. How long that cop stays in your head? Two minutes, two hours, two days, two weeks. And that is all about attention because, yes, this happened. I learned from it. I'm gonna move on. So that is the second step, attention. And third is attitude or mindset. Now that my attention is in my control, what values do I use to choose my mindset? And I have found five value that have been time tested that are part of the strategy that I use and that are. They are gratitude, compassion, acceptance, purpose, and forgiveness. And actually, in the program we have days divided where Mondays are our days of gratitude, Tuesdays of compassion, and so on. In case you're curious, Saturday is celebration and Sunday is reflection, prayer. The good thing is you have to forgive only once a week, which is Fridays. And. And if it is a Thursday, the goal is not to say, okay, compassion is for Tuesdays. I'm sorry I can't be compassionate today. That's not the idea.

A (31:44)

I'll forgive you in three days.

B (31:46)

So because human life is so complex that picking one principle by itself alone is not enough. And personally, with these awareness, attention and attitude and these principles, 98% of life's challenges actually can soften a little bit. The tea is bitter. This is putting honey in that tea. Tea. Because I want to drink the tea. I don't want to throw it away. The tea of life. Right.

A (32:13)

This is wonderful. And I think this is a great framework and a great rubric for us to look at. And I like doing it in that order too, because I think awareness probably has to come first, then attention and then attitude. And I also would ask you, for people who are doing this, I imagine this is not an instant fix. Right. They don't instantaneously turn their life around and get this under control.

B (32:33)

Working on it.

A (32:33)

It's a process.

B (32:34)

It has been 20 years. Yeah.

A (32:37)

All right. So we should expect slow, gradual improvement. But the journey, I think, is part of the glory in it. And I think that it can be challenging, but that's one of the great things about it. Now, some folks, I think will look at this and they're hard chargers and go getters and have used a lot of discipline and sort of brute force in their life, which has helped in many ways. And sometimes I think that can potentially maybe backfire if we think, no, I'm just going to endure the pain and suffering, I'm going to keep moving forward. And I'm wondering a lot of what you're talking about is not necessarily that, but it's really finding ways to work smarter on this rather than just always working harder. Is that the case?

B (33:23)

Yeah. If you fight with your own mind, who is going to win? Oh, I will win. I'm going to defeat my mind. It's not going to work. So it has to be. I totally believe in working smarter, not harder. For example, when you look at current state of parenting, parents are spending the most time ever with their children. And most parents think this is the most important task in their life. And most think they are doing a great job. Yet kids mental health and academic scores are the lowest they've ever been. So it's not about working harder, it's about working smarter. It is about befriending your brain, befriending your mind. It is about feeling validated. It is about finding those tiny moments where you can be intentional. A lot of it is about feeling validated. It is about accepting yourself, embracing your humanity and getting up again and sort of engaging with what is, what are the ways?

A (34:27)

I think this is great. What are the practical ways that people can be kind to their mind or give their mind what they need? Because I think this is a huge point and I want to make sure people kind of understand what are some of the practices or things that people can do.

B (34:40)

Yeah. So what we have talked about translates into very specific practices. And we have like a simple practice about when I wake up in the morning, the first practice, what happens when we wake up in the morning. You know, we get a shot of adrenaline through our phone and through our news and all of that and the whole day, the calendar and all that. So what I like to do is before I step on the carpet, I like to think about some good people in my life and send them a silent gratitude. And the first person I do that to is my wife, who may be sleeping by my side. So what that has done is it has completely changed how I connect with the world and with her. Because imagine if you are thinking about feeling grateful to your spouse before you meet them, then your energy will be a little different. And she actually noticed it. And she asked me, you look different in the morning. What is happening? And I said, well, I'm already sending you gratitude before meeting you. And so he started doing that back to me. So finding such, you know, specific moments, we call them rum moments. Rum is giving yourself rest. And rest is rest to your thinking, getting uplifting emotions and finding the right motivation. So that is what is rum. And I sort of like to sprinkle rum moments multiple times during the day. Sometimes, you know, men love it because they are to sip a little bit of rum all day long. And it's metaphoric rum, by the way. It's not allowed, not the real rum just so rum moments multiple times during the day. And actually we've found We've done over 35 clinical trials with this. We reached about 5 million people with this approach. And we never advertise or market, but we just let people find us and bring it to them because that is when we get the most committed people. And it has shown consistent benefit in every measure we have studied, whether it is stress, resilience, anxiety, mindfulness, quality of life, pretty much everything gets better. Happiness.

A (36:55)

Can we run through. So I like that rum analogy. So giving your brain rest for R U Uplifting emotion, M for motivations. Could we maybe run through each of those and have you give us some examples of what? Because I think some of that is kind of obvious. But I think it may be helpful to have some concrete examples. You gave us one of the gratitude practice already ready. But maybe let's start with rest. What does that actually look like for people? Because to a lot of people, rest feels like something they're not supposed to be doing. They've told themselves that, no, I can't do this. I got to keep going, I got to push through, I got to power through. And they're sort of taking an opposite approach. How can we allow our brains the rest that it needs?

B (37:31)

Yeah. So we live in Minnesota, Rochester, like two minutes from my home is corn fields. Right now when you go and see the corn fields, what are they doing? They're brown and white and not much is happening because the fields are red. Resting. If they didn't rest during winters right now, they would not be able to produce the silk, the tassel, and the corn when it comes spring and summer. Right. So rest is actually an act of self compassion. Rest is something we need. So what is rest? Rest, and I like to call it creative rest. Rest is when you are able to. It's cognitive rest. You're able to stop planning and problem solving. So think about when you're drinking coffee. You know, we are constantly planning and problem solving or sometimes ruminating and regretting and worrying or some such activity is going on because we feel like I have to be. You know, during the pandemic, I was worrying that I was not worrying. And I thought I have to constantly worry to keep my life afloat. So rest is when you can let go of planning and problems solving, when you can completely be immersed in the moment. Dogs do it very well when they are walking. They're not walking to get healthy. Walking is it. That is the experience and it's complete by itself. So anything you are experiencing, talking to a person, seeing a patient, even working on the computer. Driving. Driving is a perfect example actually. There's so much distracted driving because when we start driving mentally, we are already there where we want to be instead of saying, okay, there's all this distance and I might as well enjoy this, enjoy this moment when I am with others on the road. So that is rest. Uplifting emotions have these two basic ideas. Dopamine and oxytocin uplifting emotions. So dopamine uplifting emotions are invigorating, something novel, something interesting, something uplifting, something new, a new friend, a new music. We had Grammy awards yesterday and our kids were excited about who got the best album. I mean, that's all new and exciting, right? We love novelty. Kids love novelty new toy. The other one is oxytocin and that is under appreciated in our society as such. But it is actually much more powerful. There's enormous joy in comparison compassion. There is enormous joy in forgiveness. There's enormous joy in acceptance, in pursuing purpose, in giving your best and experiencing flow. I mean, and so those are actually intrinsically very joyous. Dopamine is more like candy and those are like okay, meal, the oxytocin one. So we need, actually I need, I like candy, but I also like oatmeal. And the third one is motivation. Motivation can be something that is extrinsically driven, but something that is more internal where there's a purpose that is driving you to achieve something, to serve someone, to relieve someone's suffering, to heal someone. And I can't tell you how much joy there is in that process. Process.

A (41:00)

You know, as I hear you talking about this, a lot of what you're talking about is your own intrinsic motivation, but it is for others. This isn't all just self focused about how can I increase my own happiness and excitement right now. But there's a little bit of a blend of that, right? So part of it is making yourself better, but also tying that to impacting others. How do you handle that personally?

B (41:27)

So you know, let happiness find you while you're striving to make others happy. Right. I think if you're chasing happiness, as they say, it is like that butterfly. When you chase the butterfly, it'll fly away, but if you sit quietly, it'll come and sit on your shoulder. So happiness is something that you want to stumble on, not something you obsessively seek. You know, even studies show that if you are seeking happiness obsessively, actually that is a perfect recipe to become unhappy. Happy people with mental health conditions have more flares if they are really valuing happiness a lot. I think it's one world in the sense when you look at planet Earth, the pale blue dot, when you look at it from, look at Earth from Neptune, you see one small little dot where we are all together. So we're all in this together. And, and to me there is no other. Because in our situation, your kid and my kid play with each other. If your daughter is happy, my daughter is happy. So we are all connected to each other and I think it is best not to think of anyone as other. I think we are all together, one large family and that is sorely needed in the world that is today.

A (42:48)

That's tremendous. I love that and I think you're exactly right. Sometimes it's hard for us to have that perspective because we have our head down, we're so self focused. And I actually think that is one of the potential downsides of this whole concept of sort of self help and self improvement is that people make it so much about the self that they then they forget that they are connected to every other human being on the planet. And when we make that other person better, that in turn reciprocally makes us better. You know, as you get smarter and you grow and you teach, teach, I become better because then I learn from you, which then puts me in a better position to hopefully maybe do the same for you and vice versa. So I think that positive synergy is something that people really misunderstand oftentimes.

B (43:32)

Absolutely. I think it's a matter of going back to we have 30,000 days on the planet, it's what about 4,000 weeks or something like that. And some of us have spent half of that or a little bit more. So I just say, okay, I've got 1000 or 1500 weeks. I'm not sort of trying to catastrophize, but I'm trying to say, okay, every week is important. And eventually I think the goal is to leave the planet a little better than you found it for your kids and grandkids and great, great grandkids and so on and the only way. And I think the younger generation has it better than us because they are very connected to each other. I'm amazed at how wonderful they are in terms of their connection with each other and how much they care for each. So I think keeping this in mind, and I think Silicon Valley has to understand that fully, that when we create technologies, we should always think how are they going to affect our kids brain, their mental health and not Just the value of my stock options.

A (44:45)

Very well said. Very well said. One last question before we move in and start summarizing. One last question for you. If this is something I recognize that I need to do, and I really commit to trying to, you know, really intentionally focusing my mind and getting more mileage out of it, how will I know if I'm doing a good job along the way? You know, this is different. If I'm trying to lose weight, I can watch the scale and I can see the progress in this space. How do I track my progress to know if I'm on the right course?

B (45:12)

So there is all those scales, you know, that you can use in terms of your stress level going down and your energy level, your happiness level going up, et cetera. So I've got three personal goals in my life. My first goal at the end of my life. One is I want to feel like I had a good time, I had a blast on the planet. Two is I made a difference. And three is I have no one I need to forgive or seek forgiveness from. So I'm sort of love all score is zero. So basically that translates to basically having positive emotions. So when you experience greater proportion of positive emotions, when you find you're feeling lighter, you laugh more, people are more relaxed around you, you feel less tension in your body, you're doing the right thing. The second part is when you, like, you're less cynical at work, you're less irritable at work, you're more engaged in what you're doing. You don't dread Monday mornings, you're okay with meeting and talking to someone who disagrees with you, you're moving in the right direction. And when your connections, particularly personal connections, get deeper, when you are more patient with people who may have annoyed you in the past, in your personal life, I think you are moving in the right direction. So joy, purpose, and connection, those are the three things that you get the most fantastic.

A (46:59)

We could all use more of those in our life. Okay, well, I'm going to summarize here with mine. I filled my page up and I've written in the margins here, but I'll try to go quickly with some of the main takeaways for me. Then we'll let you summarize. So in. In talking about adding mileage to your brain, you know, what are we talking about for you? It's really adding more life to your years and more intention and purpose. And we. One of our main issues is that we often lack awareness of our attentions and our emotions and this is really what we're, what we need to be focused on. And you talked about two different operating modes of the brain, the automatic or the default mode where our mind is just kind of wondering or ruminating. And all animals have this, that doesn't make it us unique. The focus mode is much more intentional where you choose what you're paying attention to and that's really what makes us human. And if we spend too much time in that default mode, we end up being less happy, less successful, more miserable, more suffering, fear, worry, anxiety, more cognitive fatigue, which has other implications as well. You talked about why we have this negativity bias from an evolutionary standpoint, which I think is really true. But we live in a different world now, so this is important for us to control. And then when we talked about steps of how we can actually improve and spend more time in that focus mode, the three steps you gave us for number one, being more aware of your own brain, yourself, the world around you. Number two, paying more attention and being intentional about what you focus on. And then number three is attitude. So awareness, attention and attitude. And then for the attitude you gave us five different values to think about. Gratitude, compassion, acceptance, purpose and forgiveness. And then we also talked about, you know, how can we recharge and energize our brain and give it what it needs. And, and the rum analogy, So R is rest, 2U is uplifting emotion, number three is M motivation. So those are the three things that we can give back to our brain. And I wrote down a number of quotes. I'm going to give my favorite quotes that you did from this, from this session here. I love the question to ask yourself. Am I choosing my thoughts or is thinking happening to me? Which I think was fantastic. And then also one at the end, let happiness find you as you're striving to make others happy, which I think is fantastic. So a couple great take home messages. Now I'll give you a chance to summarize here. Maybe a little bit of redundancy to this, but I think it's really helpful. So I want your thoughts on our three big questions. So first, what does it mean to get more mileage out of your brain and why are we currently so inefficient?

B (49:24)

I think getting more mileage from the brain is basically getting more out of life, getting more, more peak and deep experiences. It is acquiring more wisdom, not just contextual knowledge. It is making more difference. It is loving more and being loved more, respecting more and being respected more. And it is pursuing a purpose that Is larger than yourself. It is leaving the world a little better than you think. Found it.

A (49:55)

Great. And why is it so hard for us to stay in that focus mode? As our brain pulls us towards distraction,

B (50:03)

we're obsessed with survival and safety. Our brain is a machine that is designed for survival and safety, not peace and happiness. That is what we are struggling with. We have secured survival and safety, but our brain is still busy doing that, and it is busy protecting our emotional body, not just physical body. And that's why it is constantly looking for threats. And you can live a life where you are either running from fear or you are running towards meaning. A high proportion of us are running away from fear, not running towards meaning. And that's why we stay in the default mode.

A (50:40)

Excellent. And then one last time. What's the solution? So what are the steps we can take to get the most out of our brains?

B (50:45)

The solution starts with awareness. It starts with openness. That, yes, something I can do. And that awareness helps you become aware of. Of your strengths and constraints and limitations and those strengths, constraints, limitations. In the context of the world that we live in, that leads to developing intentionality, opening the door to what is and what is nurturing. There's trillions of bytes of data hitting us, but what do I choose to come on my table and become my dinner experience? That is, it is exactly how you order on your menu and you pick what comes to you. You just don't randomly let anything come. And third part is, now that it is on my table, how do I partake it? What kind of mindset do I use? Am I grateful for what is there, or find one error from the chef and complain about it? Do I have compassion? Do I accept it? Do I find purpose in this process and am I willing to forgive? I think having that mindset, I think, and gradually allowing this process to sort of percolate through you, I think that's how you can build a more holistic mind.

A (52:00)

That's wonderful. Well, we're going to use that in our challenge. So we always like to issue a challenge or sort of a call to action for our audience. So after listening to this, so you've laid it out quite nicely, and you've given us a great structure, you know, with the three steps being first awareness, then attention, then attitude. So what I'd like for our audience to start with is that awareness piece. Start with step one. And I think a great way to do that is using your quote that you said that you ask, am I choosing my thoughts, or is thinking happening? To me. So what I would ask our audiences do is maybe over the next week, if you can, at least at one time during the day, just pause and ask yourself that question, am I choosing my thoughts or is thinking happening to me? And then act accordingly. So that'll be our challenge for the audience for this week. Thank you so much for joining us. This is. This was fantastic. It was a great discussion with a lot of powerful information and a lot of great suggestions that I think are going to make a big difference for us.

B (52:51)

Thanks for having me.

A (52:52)

A lot of fun. And to our audience, remember to live intentionally, consistently better Keep striving to be the best human you can be so you can give your gifts back to the world and never stop optimizing. Thanks for listening to the Mayo Clinic Human Optimization Project. If you liked this episode, hit subscribe and leave a review. It helps others find us Know someone who might benefit. Share the episode with them to join us in our mission to help as many people as possible become the best humans they can be. Have feedback or a topic idea. Email us at optimizeo. Edu and be sure to look for us on Instagram X and YouTube.

B (53:35)

This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and should not be relied upon for medical, professional, or legal advice. Always consult with a qualified professional for any questions. The appearance of any guest does not imply an endorsement of them, their employer, or any entity they represent. The views and opinions expressed by the guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of male Mayo Clinic. Reference to any product, service, or entity is for informational purposes only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Mayo Clinic.