Jeh Johnson (2:18)

in Washington, the longest running show in television history.

Kristen Welker (2:22)

This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. Good Sunday morning. Breaking news overnight. In an extraordinary turn of events, the United States has rescued the second crew member who was in the US F15 fighter jet shot down over Iran Friday. President Trump texting me directly this morning. The rescue was an Easter miracle. The enemy was large and violent. The rescuers were brilliant, strong, decisive and as cool as Anyone can be the Iranians thought they had him, but it wasn't even close. And remember, we got two but couldn't talk about the first in that it would have highlighted that they there was a second. Such a rescue has never happened before in so violent an enemy territory. It is usually not done because it is considered not doable. Such a great military like no other. Adding on Truth social. Open the effing straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. All of this comes on the heels of President Trump's primetime address Wednesday night telling Americans the objectives in Iran were nearing completion.

Senator Tim Kaine (3:28)

I can say tonight that we are

Congressman Ro Khanna (3:30)

on track to complete all of America's military objectives shortly, very shortly.

Senator Tim Kaine (3:36)

We are going to hit them extremely hard over the next two to three weeks.

Kristen Welker (3:41)

And joining me now is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator Kaine, welcome back to MEET THE press. Happy Easter

Senator Tim Kaine (3:50)

and thanks to you, Kristen. Appreciate it.

Kristen Welker (3:52)

Appreciate your being here. Let's start with that breaking news overnight. The fact that the US Military was able to rescue that second pilot that was down in enemy lines in Iran. What was your reaction to learning the news? Senator?

Senator Tim Kaine (4:09)

Overwhelming relief. Our Easter service at my church was last night and I know that that was a prayer on virtually everybody's minds during the service. And so to wake up this morning and hear about the rescue of the pilot, so very, so very grateful for that, for the service of the search and rescue teams. Kristen, this is why the president and secret Hegseth's rhetoric about no mercy, no quarter, death from above, bomb you to the Stone Ages. This kind of rhetoric is really dangerous because the likelihood of having downed pilots or others who are captured in a war like this is very high. And if you send the message that there's no quarter for the folks on the other side, that really encourages them to mistreat our folks. And so I hope the White House, I doubt the president will. But please dial back the rhetoric because you don't need to put people like these pilots more at risk by the rhetoric that you use.

Kristen Welker (5:05)

Well, you raise the rhetoric. Let me ask you about some of the president's rhetoric this morning posting on Truth Social, quote, open the strait, you blank bastards. Do you think that is an effective negotiation tactic?

Senator Tim Kaine (5:21)

No. Bombing them back to the stone Age, cursing them. Secretary Hegseth saying, you know, it's death from above, no mercy, no quarter. We will ignore stupid rules of engagement. This is all embarrassing and juvenile. And it's people trying to act like they're puffed up and tough when what we really see from the administration in this war is the absence of a plan, the absence of a clear rationale, no effort to get allies on board, and thus deep unpopularity of this war with the American public. I know that's the case in Virginia. I was traveling around Virginia all last week, and I'll be doing the same this week. People see this president as having blundered into a war with no clear ration. And there's no amount of cursing or boasting or tough talk that will cover up for the fact that this president didn't have a rationale and he doesn't really have a plan.

Kristen Welker (6:15)

Well, let me drill down with you on the Strait of Hormuz. Obviously a major flashpoint. I know that you want this war to come to an end, but, Senator, would you support ending this war before the Strait is reopened?

Senator Tim Kaine (6:32)

I think we need to end this war as soon as possible. We don't need to deploy more Americans into harm's way in a war that lacked a rationale and that lacked a plan. And then we'll work with allies and others to figure out the situation in the Strait. Thank goodness the United States is less reliant on oil from the Middle east because we've built up a strong domestic energy industry. The president shouldn't try to cripple the clean energy industry in the way that he's doing it. Let's focus on growing American energy. And I think when the war ends, you'll start to get the relief at the. At the price tag, at the pump for Americans who are paying too much. The president promised to end foreign wars and bring down prices. He's initiating wars, raising prices, and now claiming he's got to cut Medicaid, Medicare and other programs to fund his wars. That's not the way we ought to be going.

Kristen Welker (7:26)

Well, let me ask you about what comes next, Senator. President Trump asking Congress for $1.5 trillion for the milit, a $500 billion increase from the military budget last year. Would you support that spending if deemed necessary for military readiness?

Senator Tim Kaine (7:49)

Kristen? I have a hard time seeing that size of an increase as being justified. The president sent that note over Friday. As you know, I'm on the Armed Services Committee, and we'll be taking a look at it. But here's a question we have to ask, which is it's not just about the dollars. It's about the Pentagon managing. You just watched the Secretary of Defense fire very respected army leadership in the middle of a war. Respected leadership on both sides of the aisle in both houses and there's deep questions about why many suspect that Secretary Hegseth was just trying to move people out of the way that he viewed as personally threatening to his leadership. Maybe they were being candid to him with advice that he didn't like. And so I don't think Congress is going to be in a mood to write a blank check to a leadership team, a civilian leadership team that seems so inept these days.

Kristen Welker (8:43)

So you're a no right now, Senator?

Senator Tim Kaine (8:47)

Well, the president, all he has sent us is the number. We don't have the details. The good news is the Armed Services Committee is going to start having hearings in April, May, before we write the bill in June. Needless to say, we have a lot of questions to ask and the administration has a whole lot of explaining to do.

Kristen Welker (9:05)

Let me ask you, because since the start of this war, you have co sponsored five war powers resolutions, two of which have failed on the floor. Your colleague, your Republican colleague, Senator John Curtis, said he actually won't support more funding without a formal declaration of war from Congress. Senator, do you think you have enough Republican support to get a resolution to pass, given what you're hearing from Senator Curtis?

Senator Tim Kaine (9:35)

Well, I was pleased to hear that from Senator Curtis because it shows that he takes the Constitution seriously, that we shouldn't be at a war, particularly a war of this magnitude, without a vote of Congress. I would welcome that debate on the floor. I don't see more War. After 25 years of unproductive war in the Middle East, I don't see it as a good idea. That's why I think this war is illegal. But if we have that debate on the floor and a majority of my colleagues thinks we ought to be at war, I'll still think it's unwise, but I will at least say it's legal, it's constitutional. The problem we have now is a war that is both illegal and unwise. Senator Curtis is suggesting, hey, it's time for Congress to really get in and make sure that there's a plan here that the American public can support.

Kristen Welker (10:21)

Let me ask you about another major flashpoint, NATO. The new tensions between President Trump and NATO, of course, the NATO secretary General poised to visit Washington this week. You co authored the law designed to prevent any president from pulling out of NATO unilaterally with then Senator Marco Rubio. Do you think if President Trump tries to withdraw from NATO, Congress will be able to block him and that Republicans would be on board with that?

Senator Tim Kaine (10:52)

Kristen? I do. This was a bill that I actually introduced with Senator John McCain. I think it was one of his last bills before he died. And then Senator Rubio picked it up as the chief Republican after Senator McCain died. We got it passed in, I believe, the end of 2023. A very important bill. The President cannot withdraw from NATO without support of Congress. We are stronger with allies than when we're operating on our own. And if the President were to announce, I'm withdrawing from NATO, it would be like Donald Trump saying the sun will come up in the west tomorrow. It would be an irrelevant falsehood. He can't withdraw without us. However, he has hurt NATO badly by imposing tariffs on NATO without any consultation, by waging wars that are affecting the economies of NATO nations without any consultation. And now he's blaming them for not coming to the USAID with respect to the straits elementary human relations. If you want help from somebody, work with them. Don't kick them around. And then when you're in trouble, ask them for help. That's what President Trump is doing now and that's why it's not working.

Kristen Welker (11:58)

All right, let's turn to the fight, the funding fight over the Department of Homeland Security, which is now closed. As you know, the Senate passed a bill bill which the House is now signaling it will support when it's back in session. It's worth noting though, Senator, this bill does not include the reforms to ICE that Democrats were demanding, which include no masks, requiring judicial warrants. What exactly did Democrats get out of this shutdown, Senator?

Senator Tim Kaine (12:27)

Well, Kristen, the deal was what Democrats had been putting on the table for weeks. There was no need for the shutdown. There was no need for TSA lines. We basically said to the Republicans, let's fund all the DHS agencies at the levels we've all agreed on. We've worked it out in a bipartisan way with two majority Republican houses except ICE and cbp, which need reform. And the Republicans had pre funded ICE and CBP activities, so nobody was losing paychecks in those agencies. So you're right, we have proposed funding everything except ICE and cbp. They can use their pre funding and we will continue the reform discussion. And you're right, we don't yet have those reforms, but we have a wind at our back because we know the American public strongly believes that these federal agencies should follow the same standards that local law enforcement agencies follow. Idaho, no masks. Have a warrant before you enter somebody's homes. These are enormously popular. So we think we can make headway on getting reforms because the American public is with us on the reforms. We're Seeking?

Kristen Welker (13:38)

Well, there was a similar outcome in November after the longest government shutdown. In fact, you were one of eight senators who did negotiate with Republicans to reopen the government. The fight at that point was over Obamacare subsidies. But Democrats never actually got an extension of those Obamacare subsidies. Do you acknowledge that Democrats have yet to gain anything tangible from these shutdowns?

Senator Tim Kaine (14:06)

Well, the first in November, however, my negotiation was on a different point. Protection for federal employees from all the firings and rifts that the administration was conducting. And I got thousands and thousands of federal employees returned to work, which for Virginia was a big deal. That was something that I negotiated in the fall. Shutdown that was extremely helpful. Look, shutdowns are not good, I don't think. They're certainly not winning for the nation. And again, that's why Democrats put on the table weeks and weeks ago, no need for a shutdown. Let's fund the age agencies we've agreed on and keep a reform discussion going with ice. It does sound like finally the House will agree to do what the Senate agreed to unanimously now two weeks ago. I hope they will do it. Then we'll continue the reform discussion and all of these questions, whether it's ICE or the Republican efforts to slash healthcare. President Trump saying because of fighting wars, we're going to need to cut Medicaid, Medicare, childcare. These will all be matters on the voters minds this November.

Kristen Welker (15:13)

All right, Senator, very quickly before I let you go, President Trump fired his attorney general. Pam Bondi. You are someone who's actually voted yes on some of his nominees, including former DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. Are you open to voting yes on President Trump's pick to become the next attorney general?

Senator Tim Kaine (15:36)

I never start off as an automatic no. We'll see who the president proposes. If you get elected as president, I think that should carry a mandate to put in an executive team. If somebody is not qualified or has lack of character, I'll vote no. But I never start off as a no. But here's the lesson from Pam Bondi. Kristen the AG is supposed to be the nation's chief law enforcement officer and have an independent gravitas and integrity. Pam Bondi threw all that away and she still got fired. So look, you can either go in as an attorney general and stand up for the rule of law and you may make Donald Trump mad, or you can go in and try to just do everything the president wants and you're going to make him mad. And she basically sold out her own integrity. She couldn't even look at herself. In a mirror and she still got sacked. That should be a lesson to whoever is the next nominee ag Be the nation's chief law enforcement officer and don't let the president cause you to trim your conscience or, you know, become a toady.

Kristen Welker (16:39)

All right, Senator Tim Kaine. Hope you have a wonderful Easter holiday. Thank you so much for joining us.

Senator Tim Kaine (16:45)

Same same to you, Kristen. Thanks so much.

Kristen Welker (16:47)

Thank you. When we come back, Republican Congressman Mike Lawler joins me.

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Kristen Welker (18:15)

Welcome back. And joining me now is Republican Congressman Mike Lawlor of New York. Congressman Lawler, welcome to Meet the Press And Happy Easter. Happy Easter.

Congressman Mike Lawler (18:25)

Happy Easter, Kristen. And Happy Easter to everyone out watching.

Kristen Welker (18:29)

Well, we appreciate your being here on the holiday, Congressman. And I have to start by getting your reaction to this extraordinary news overnight, the military rescuing the second pilot who was in that F15 fighter jet that was shot down over Iran. What were your first thoughts when you heard the news?

Congressman Mike Lawler (18:48)

Well, obviously it was fantastic news, both for our country and certainly the families of those airmen that had been shot down. But it speaks to the courage, the bravery and the commitment to service of our armed forces. They truly are the greatest armed forces anywhere in the world. And I think they proved that once again in this rescue mission.

Kristen Welker (19:15)

Let me ask you, because the rescue mission in Iran did involve sending in special forces. And it was notable in his primetime address on Wednesday. President Trump did not rule out sending in US Forces on the ground in Iran. So let me ask you, would you support President Trump actually putting US Troops on the ground in Iran?

Congressman Mike Lawler (19:39)

I think in this instance, a rescue mission, it was necessary to do everything in our power to ensure that no troops were left behind. And I commend the President for taking decisive action to do that. I think the question moving forward with respect to any troops on the ground would be for what purpose? And I think the only purpose that I could see would be to get the enriched uranium. And I think that is something that does need to be discussed with Congress in a classified setting. And I think Congress would need to be briefed on that particular matter. But I want to push back on something Senator Kaine said, said this is not an illegal military operation. The President is fully within his authority to conduct this military operation. The War Powers Resolution and War Powers act gives him 60 to 90 days to conduct such an operation. And Congress was lawfully notified within 48 hours of the initial incursion. So for Tim Kaine or any other Democrat to say this is illegal, especially after so many Democrats, including Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, supported Barack Obama's seven month war in Libya, is just hypocritical at best. And they are gaslighting the American people when they talk about this.

Kristen Welker (21:01)

Well, look, it's not just Democrats, it's Republicans too. I want to drill down with you on this very point. Republican Senator John Curtis of Utah wrote on Wednesday, quote, the Constitution assigns the legislative branch the clear and explicit right to declare war. To accord a president the power to wage an ongoing war without a congressional declaration of war is to render that congressional authority void. Do you agree that if President Trump wants more funding for the war or more time to fight it, that he does in fact need congressional approval?

Congressman Mike Lawler (21:36)

Congress has not declared war since World War II. And in fact, we have had numerous operations and conflicts and wars. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan. Yes, there has been congressional involvement, but the declaration of war itself has not occurred since World War II. But yes, look, as this moves forward, if it goes beyond the 60 to 90 day window, then yes, Congress will need to take necessary action, and I would support that. But this, the idea that, that the administration and our armed forces are not meeting their objectives or that there wasn't a plan is absurd. The Fact is that they have conducted an incredible operation over these last five weeks, eliminating much of the leadership of Iran and the irgc, obliterating their air defenses, their ballistic missiles program, their drone programs, their naval fleet. These are significant steps that were taken to eliminate the threat posed by a nuclear Iran. And for many of my colleagues who have said for years that Iran could not get a nuclear weapon, that action must be taken to prevent them from doing so. It seems for some of them, those were hollow and empty words and they didn't actually mean it. President Trump took decisive action last year to go after three of their nuclear facilities. He eliminated much of their leadership in this operation with Israel and has taken aggressive measures to go after their ballistic missiles program, which, if allowed to continue producing ballistic missiles at the rate that they were, it would have made it almost impossible to stop their nuclear ambitions.

Kristen Welker (23:28)

Congressman, let me just back to the point. It sounds like you're saying you agree that the president would need to seek congressional approval if this war goes beyond 60 days. But let me ask you about new

Congressman Mike Lawler (23:38)

funding after, after the 60 to 90 day window, which is part of the War Powers Act.

Kristen Welker (23:43)

How would you vote for new funding for a war that Congress has not approved?

Congressman Mike Lawler (23:50)

Look, Congress has continually funded military operations. There is an appropriations process to do that. We will go through that process. The administration released its budget. That is not going to be the final budget or appropriations, you know, numbers. As we saw this past January, Congress finalized bipartisan appropriations on 11 of the 12 bills, including the Defense Department. And so we will continue to ensure that our armed forces have the resources that they need to conduct military operations. And so we will go through that.

Kristen Welker (24:29)

So you're a yes. You're a yes. You're a yes.

Congressman Ro Khanna (24:33)

Yes.

Kristen Welker (24:33)

You would be a yes for the.

Congressman Mike Lawler (24:35)

I'm a. I'm a yes. I'm a yes for funding our military and ensuring they have the capabilities to perform their operations. Absolutely.

Kristen Welker (24:44)

All right, let me move now to the funding fight over the Department of Homeland Security, which has been shut down now for 50 days, the longest partial government shutdown in U.S. history. There appears to be a plan to reopen the government. There were days of disagreements between Republican leaders. The Senate did pass a bill. Now it appears as though House Speaker Mike Johnson is on board with trying to get that passed. But Congress is not back until April 14th. Congressman, is that acceptable to wait that long to fully fund the government, or should House Speaker Mike Johnson call everyone back this week and get the government reopened?

Congressman Mike Lawler (25:22)

Kristen, what's not acceptable is that for this fiscal year. Democrats have shut down the Department of Homeland security for over 90 days, not paying FEMA, not paying the Coast Guard, not paying the Secret Service and not paying critical operations within the Department of Homeland Security. The fact is Democrats made a very calculated decision to shut down the department because they do not want to enforce our immigration laws. Here is an example of not enforcing. Chris, and this is critical. Here is an example of not enforcing our immigration laws. An 18 year old girl in my district, Sheridan Gorn, was killed in Chicago after an illegal immigrant was allowed to enter into the United States during the Biden administration. He was captured, he was detained, he was released. He went to Chicago, he committed a crime, he was arrested under Chicago's disastrous criminal justice laws. He was released back out onto the street and he executed this 18 year old girl. Democrats do not want to fund ICE and Customs and Border Patrol. And what will happen is individuals like Jose Medina will be allowed to enter into into the country and kill innocent Americans.

Kristen Welker (26:34)

Congressman, let me just.

Congressman Mike Lawler (26:35)

Wrong. I will not stand for it. And that is why we are pushing back against this.

Kristen Welker (26:39)

Let me just get back to the question though. Republicans are in charge of all three branches of government. House Speaker Mike Johnson has the capacity to call everyone back. Does he have a responsibility to do so to bring everyone back to get the government reopened? Does this not fall to Republicans to do that?

Congressman Mike Lawler (26:59)

This Kristen?

Congressman Ro Khanna (27:01)

No.

Congressman Mike Lawler (27:02)

Kristen, we have passed Homeland Security funding four times, four times in the last few weeks and every Democrat passed a

Kristen Welker (27:10)

bill unanimously against it. Congressman passed a bill, Schumer passed a bill unanimously.

Congressman Mike Lawler (27:15)

But they're not funding. They're not funding. Kristen, they're not funding the full Department of Homeland Security. They're not funding ice. They're not funding Customs and border patrols. They say that, oh, we passed funding during reconciliation and we did for much of the operations. But many people within ICE and Customs and Border Patrol civilians are not being paid. You cannot defund critical elements of our Homeland Security. And so we are going to go through this process and not only fund the other components of the department, but we are going to ensure that ICE and Customs and Border Patrol are fully funded. That is what what the House and Senate Republican leadership are going to put forth as we come back.

Kristen Welker (28:02)

All right. Well, we'll see how it all unfolds when Congress does come back. Congressman Lawler, appreciate it. Hope you have a fantastic holiday. Thank you so much.

Congressman Mike Lawler (28:13)

Thanks, Kristen. Happy Easter.

Kristen Welker (28:14)

Happy Easter to you. When we come back. Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna joins me next.

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Congressman Ro Khanna (29:48)

Thank you. Happy Easter. Happy Easter to everyone.

Kristen Welker (29:50)

Happy Easter to you. I hope you have a wonderful holiday. We appreciate your being here. I have to start by getting your reaction to this rescue mission of the second pilot that was shot down over Iran.

Congressman Ro Khanna (30:01)

Well, I am relieved. And what an extraordinary achievement of our troops. I mean, they really deserve to be commended. But you know what? The thing, Kristen, is, is that the president is really failing them to have a tweet this morning cursing out and threatening war crimes, to be saying that we've destroyed the ballistic missile capacity of Iran and yet having troops flying over that are being shot at. We need to end this war now. We need an immediate ceasefire. Iran, Israel and the United States need to stop bombing and have a negotiated settlement.

Kristen Welker (30:37)

Would you be okay, though, with leaving Iran without the Strait of Hormuz being reopened? President Trump has set that deadline, saying there are going to be significant consequences if it's not reopened.

Congressman Ro Khanna (30:49)

Let me tell you what won't reopen the Strait of Formulas. Threatening war crimes, of bombing indiscriminately, power plants, cursing at Iran. What we need is statesmanship like President Obama had. What we need to do is to stop the bombing, have a ceasefire, and then to work with Oman, to work with China, to work with the Gulf allies and European allies to have a solution to allow, allow the Hormuz to be open, but it's not going to happen by massive escalation.

Kristen Welker (31:16)

Is there any scenario where you would support new funding if it was determined necessary for the readiness of the military?

Congressman Ro Khanna (31:23)

No, I'm not supporting new funding. I mean, they're asking for $400 billion. I know you asked Senator Kaine and Representative Lawler. The answer for every Democrat should be absolutely no. Absolutely no. We don't need to read it. We don't need to study it. It's $400 billion for a war that we oppose. We could have universal childcare for that. We could have free public college for that. We could pay teachers $60,000 for that. I call it new economic patriotism. Democrats need to oppose this funding and say we're actually for the American people.

Kristen Welker (31:52)

Well, let's talk about the other big news at the White House this week. President Trump firing Attorney General Pam Bondi. The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee says he still wants to hear from Pam Bondi with her deposition scheduled for April 14th. Do you think Pam Bondi still needs to come and testify even though she is now a private citizen? Congressman?

Congressman Ro Khanna (32:15)

Yes. I mean, if we could chase Hillary Clinton, who hasn't been in office for 20 years, certainly we can get Pam Bondi to explain why she covered up documents, why we haven't had prosecutions. But, Kristen, the most important thing is there need to be two tests for this next attorney General. First, the Senate needs to fight to make sure that they commit to releasing all Epstein files with no redactions other than survivors. And second, they need to begin investigations and prosecutions. There are people like Les Wexner and Leon Black who have allegedly have such horrific abuse and there has not been any investigation.

Kristen Welker (32:49)

You have been calling for all of the Epstein files to be released. You've spearheaded that effort. In fact, Congressman, what exactly are you going to do in this new phase now that the president's moving toward a new attorney general to make sure that all of the files are released?

Senator Tim Kaine (33:05)

What can you do?

Congressman Ro Khanna (33:06)

Well, first, we're going to make this the issue for any new attorney general. And people say, well, okay, they're going to come before the Senate and they may tell the Senate one thing and do something else. Well, then that new attorney general will face the same consequences as Pam Bondi because there are Republicans on the Oversight Committee who are insisting on the release of full false. And there are a lot of the survivors who talk to me, who text me to this day saying, why aren't These people being prosecuted. So I'm going to continue to work in a bipartisan coalition as Thomas Massier and I have have with Nancy Mace, with Lauren Boebert, with other people on oversight like Tim Burchart to hold this Epstein class accountable and make sure the new attorney General actually follows the law.

Kristen Welker (33:44)

Let me ask you because you've asked for King Charles to meet with Epstein survivors when he visits the United States later this month. And the same request came from the family of Virginia Giuffre. She's of course a survivor of the Epstein's abuse. She died by suicide, tragically. Ironically, last year, as you know, former Prince Andrew was stripped of his royal titles over his associations with Epstein. What exactly are you hoping and thinking that Epstein survivors will get from a conversation with the king?

Congressman Ro Khanna (34:15)

Well, the Epstein survivors want this. Not just Virginia Giuffre's family, but other survivors. They want someone powerful to acknowledge that what they've been through, they want them to be have justice for people who abuse them. And actually Britain has been ahead of where we have been. They've been prosecuting Mendelssohn and prosecuting the former Prince Andrew. And the king has an opportunity to say, look, the modern British monarchy isn't going to be with the Epstein class, isn't going to just be fighting for the rich and powerful. We are going to stand with these survivors. It would be an extraordinary moment.

Kristen Welker (34:55)

It would be extraordinary. Do you have any indication that that is something that is going to happen?

Congressman Ro Khanna (35:00)

Well, I gave a long interview in the Times this morning which the ambassador and others tell me the king read. So I'm hoping he will really do it. He doesn't have to discuss the details of any of the cases. It would be an extraordinary moment and it would mean a tremendous amount to the survivors.

Kristen Welker (35:13)

All right, I do want to ask you, here we are in the midst of the midterms. You're someone who's been quite outspoken. You have made several appearances on a show hosted by socialist commentator Hasan Piker. Some of your fellow Democrats though have raised alarms about his views. Here are two members of a left leaning think tank. This is how they put it. They wrote, quote, no left wing agitator is more influential and extreme than twitch streamer Hasan Piker. He's referred to ultra orthodox Jews as inbred, employed, anti Semitic dog whistles, bloodthirsty, violent pig dog against an anti Hamas viewer of his stream compared liberal Zionists to liberal Nazis and said Hamas is a thousand times better than the Israeli state. Now Hasan Piker says some of his comments have been taken out of context, but he largely stands by them. Do you have any regrets about appearing on his show?

Congressman Ro Khanna (36:07)

None. And I would go again, but I of course condemn those comments. I mean, I've described Hamas as a terrorist state and we need to unequivocally condemn anti Semitism. But Hassan Piker was at the DNC in 2024 covering Vice President Harris. What should the standard of the Democrats be? Should we not go on Theo Vaughan? Should we not go on Sean Ryan? Should we not go on Joe Rogan? Should we just have these purity tests of canceling? Folks, the lesson of the last election is we've got to be out there. We've got to engage. It's a complex, messy, multiracial democracy. I will defend my views, but the people who are saying don't engage will cost us future elections.

Kristen Welker (36:45)

Do you run the risk of legitimizing some of those views by appearing on his show? How do you answer that?

Congressman Ro Khanna (36:52)

He's got millions of followers. He'll have millions of followers whether Ro Khanna goes on his show or the point is that we should go on and have tough conversations. You know, actually I respect Rahm Emanuel. Rahm Emanuel says he'll go on and if he makes a comment that I disagree with, then I will push back right there. So I think the test should be what you say. If someone is going on these programs and not pushing back against anti Semitism, fine. But you know, I haven't done the background check on you, Chris, and I'm sure there are no crazy comments.

Kristen Welker (37:25)

I have not said anything like that. I can assure you that. Where do you draw the line, Congressman? Would you appear on, for example, a right leaning show, Alex Jones, for example, who has made controversial comments that have enraged people, hurt people deeply in some instances?

Congressman Ro Khanna (37:41)

Look, there is obviously a line and I probably wouldn't appear on Alex Jones. But the point is I don't think that that line should be with Hasan Paik, who has millions of followers and largely what his view has been has been critical of the blank check that we gave Netanyahu in the war in Gaza. Now, I don't agree with every one of his statements and it's a judgment call. But here's what I will say, Kristen. The Democratic Party has been too reluctant to get out there to mix it up to engage, and we should be on actually being doing more of these things. We should have done more interviews during 2020 for, you know, Vice President Vance was on like three Sunday shows in a row. I was like where are our folks? We've got to be out engaging in the media, out engaging in podcasts, out engaging in communities and offering our vision going forward.

Kristen Welker (38:33)

Okay, you're obviously someone who's getting a lot of buzz for 2028. Have you made that decision yet?

Congressman Ro Khanna (38:37)

I'm focused first on 2026. We're going to win. We've got to stop Trump's corruption and lawlessness. But I have an economic vision, a vision of what we're going to do with AI to prevent job loss, a vision of what we're going to do, economic patriotism to create jobs across this country, lower costs. And that needs to be what the Democrats are focused on.

Kristen Welker (38:54)

So not ruling it out, Congressman, is what I hear.

Congressman Ro Khanna (38:58)

I've got an economic vision, but we got to win first for the House.

Kristen Welker (39:01)

All right, well, listen, thank you so much for being here. I hope you have a great Easter holiday.

Congressman Ro Khanna (39:05)

Same to you, Chris.

Kristen Welker (39:05)

Thank you, Congressman. When we come back, Moonshot, America's mission to deep space for the first time world than 50 years. We'll hear from the astronauts on board and from the past. The Meet the Press minute is next. Stay with us.

Congressman Mike Lawler (39:22)

This is a magnificent accomplishment to be

Congressman Ro Khanna (39:24)

up here, to see the moon, to see the Earth and to know that

Congressman Mike Lawler (39:28)

we are between those two celestial bodies.

Congressman Ro Khanna (39:30)

And you can see it when you

Congressman Mike Lawler (39:31)

look out the window.

Congressman Ro Khanna (39:32)

The Earth is almost in full eclipse. The moon is almost in full daylight. And the only way you could get

Congressman Mike Lawler (39:36)

that view view is to be halfway between the two entities. It's just, it is truly awe inspiring up here.

Kristen Welker (39:43)

Welcome back. Those were the extraordinary words of one of the four astronauts on the Artemis 2 mission speaking with NBC's Tom Costello as they launched into space this week the first crewed mission into deep space since Apollo 17 in 1972. The 10 day lunar flyby mission will take the farther past the moon than humans have ever traveled. As the United States once again pushes the boundaries of space exploration in the new century, it's a reminder that questions about the value of these missions are nothing new. Back in 1963, the first American to orbit Earth, John Glenn, was asked on Meet the Press to defend the value of space exploration and why it was worth taxpayer to.

John Glenn (40:30)

Have you ever had any doubts about the importance of getting to the moon? Well, I think all of us have to consider these things very thoroughly. Certainly Congress does because they're right in the middle of the budget hearings now, of course, I don't think we can pinpoint the worth of this really. I know that the race aspects have received at least their due credit. I think though, that basically this is is an exploration. And I don't think we know really until the exploration is completed whether it's going to be completely worthwhile or not. I certainly think it will be, but I don't think we can really pinpoint every answer until we complete the exploration. Colonel, I'd like to get your own personal opinion on this. You've risked your life and you've devoted your energy and your time in this race to get to the moon. Are you yourself convinced beyond question that it's worth doing and why? Well, yes, I, I am, or I wouldn't be in the position I'm in.

Kristen Welker (41:31)

Remarkable to hear from him. When we come back, Attorney General Pam Bondi is out. Could more cabinet members be in jeopardy? The panel is next. Welcome back. The panel is here. Susan Glasser, staff writer for the New York Jeh Johnson, former secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama, and Mark Short, former Trump director of legislative affairs. Welcome to all of you. Happy Easter to all of you. Thank you for being here. Happy Passover. Susan, let me start with you. In his speech this week, President Trump said Iran had been eviscerated and is no longer a threat. Then on Friday that F15 was shot down. Both pilots remarkably have now been recovered. But what do you make of where the war is right now?

Susan Glasser (42:19)

Yeah, that's exactly right. I think we're seeing this extraordinary gap between the incredible capabilities of the US Military launching this remarkable operation, rescuing this service member after two days on the run. It's an amazing story, but in a way, it also highlights the incredible gap between the reality of the situation and the remarkably contradictory and at times very untruthful accounts of the war that President Trump is giving, including in this 19 minute speech to the nation the other day. We still don't have a clear sense of what the war games are and definitely not what an end game is. Especially the biggest consequence of Trump's war in Iran has been the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, which accounts for something like 20% of the world's energy. Iran has a chokehold over it. Donald Trump suggested the other night that he was willing just to walk away and leave that for someone else's problem. It's hard to call that a victory if that is what he pursues.

Kristen Welker (43:14)

Secretary Johnson, weigh in on that point and how you see the F15 getting shot down impacting the trajectory of this war, if at all. Does President Trump need to retaliate in some way or does he Just keep his sights on the Strait of hormones.

Jeh Johnson (43:28)

Well, first of all, the events of the last couple days reminded me of 25 years ago. I was general counsel of the Air Force. I got a ride in F15 in the back seat. I remember being strapped in and I asked somebody, what is this lever right next to my thigh, an inch away? That's to eject. I suggest you not touch that. So I rode the, I did the ride like this. This operation for the first pilot and the second pilot was a remarkable exercise, demonstration of US Military courage, technology, power. I would encourage the President and the Secretary of Defense, consistent with operational security, share as much of that with the American public so that the American public can appreciate what goes into this kind of operation is more complicated than the bin Laden operation, for example.

Kristen Welker (44:19)

Wow.

Jeh Johnson (44:20)

I'm not sure any of that, I'm not sure any of that justifies a $1.5 trillion budget request. But still, this was remarkable and I think Americans deserve to see a lot more about it.

Congressman Mike Lawler (44:32)

It.

Jeh Johnson (44:33)

I also believe that going forward, the President needs to provide a much more coherent explanation of the sacrifice he is asking of Americans. On the one hand, as Susan points out, he said Wednesday we're getting almost no oil from the Strait of Hormuz, yet price at the pump in northern New Jersey is over $4 a gallon. In Southern California, it's over $6 a gallon. And he is threatening to take action to reopen. So he needs to provide a much more coherent explanation for what's going on and what the sacrifice is that he's asking of Americans.

Kristen Welker (45:11)

Mark, do you agree with that? And Susie Wiles chief of staff told Time magazine this week she had concerns that President Trump had a rose colored view based on what aides were giving him in terms of information and updates about, about the status of this war.

Mark Short (45:27)

I think he has a clear eyed view of the status of this war, Kristen. I think he gets his information beyond his White House staff. As you know, he talks to you frequently. He talks to plenty of folks in the media. He talks to a lot of people. And so I don't doubt that he has a clear eyed view. I think that Iran has been at war with the United States for 47 years. They've killed many innocent Americans. I think the world changed on October 7, 2023, because at that point Israel decided they're going to take matters in their own hands. I think that the President heading into these next 48 hours, he understands leverage better than most people do. He understands that Iran's leverage right now is The Strait of Hormuz. His leverage is having the most powerful armed forces the world has ever assembled. And I think you're going to see that. You're going to see that in the next 24 to 48 hours. And that's why, you know, when he tweets out this morning, and I think there's a lot of commentary that it looks deranged, it looks juvenile. It's not. It's. The president is basically sending a message. We could disagree as whether or not it's presidential. We can disagree if it's statesmanlike, but it's not accidental. It's basically him wanting Iranians to think he's deranged because he's planning something here in the next 24 to 48 hours.

Congressman Ro Khanna (46:28)

Okay.

Kristen Welker (46:30)

This is all happening against the backdrop of new turmoil within his Cabinet here in Washington. Susan, he fired his attorney general, Pam Bondi, one of his most loyal servants. Do you get the sense that the dam has broken? It was a lot more stable in this second term. I mean, in the first term, he was getting rid of Cabinet members left and right, but we haven't seen that in this second term. But do you think the dam is broken? Will more be next?

Susan Glasser (46:57)

Well, I mean, look, Donald Trump, if you know your signature line is your fire, then obviously, you know, he's somebody who's not hesitant over time to get rid of people. And, you know, Mark may understand this better than I do, but you know, Donald Trump, when he gets backed into a corner. And right now, Kristen, he's in a pretty bad position. Not only is his war going very much not according to plan, regardless of what he says. I mean, he told us that it was 100% destroyed Iran's military capability. Well, then they wouldn't be able to shoot down American fighter jets. His unpopularity has really taken him to new levels. CNN had a poll the other day that had 64% unpopularity. That's basically as much disapproval as any president. And for Trump in a corner, I think that's when he escalates. That's when he's willing to do things like fire the attorney general. And again, Pam Bondi, will she be remembered? I think she will be remembered as a person who did more damage in a short period of time to the United States Justice Department than anyone we could possibly imagine.

Kristen Welker (47:57)

Secretary Johnson, weigh in on that point. And the fact that there is no head of DHA right now at a time when DHS is shut down, does that do real damage?

Jeh Johnson (48:07)

Yes. I'm concerned that these perpetual shutdowns do long term damage to aviation security, counterterrorism, cybersecurity. Last Sunday, Senator Lankford told you he was sponsoring the Prevent Government Shutdown Act. I support the, that. It's a bill that would, if you run out of time, if they go past October 1st, automatically revert to a continuing resolution at last year's funding levels. The detractors say, well, that takes away all our leverage and it promotes complacency. On the other hand, a legislation, a piece of legislation like that also says we're limiting your congressional travel. In other words, you can't go home until you finish your job. I think, I think in concept, that's a, that's a good idea because we're getting into these shutdown modes year after year. More often than once a year we have to decouple policy disagreements in Congress with funding. The most basic function of Congress is keep the lights on and fund the government.

Kristen Welker (49:11)

And there is this perception that something is broken because we keep seeing these shutdowns. Mark, talk about this new moment in the Trump administration that, do you think more heads are going to roll? Who do you think could be next? Who are you watching right now?

Mark Short (49:24)

I think that for everyone around the president, they are expendable to him. And so, you know, I think we often ask the question, like, well, why was, why was Pam Bonney replaced? She did everything he asked him to do. She did same with Kristi Noem. But if you get to reach the point that you're no longer useful and in fact you become an embarrassment, then it's time to go. And he hates to have his people around him. I think that's, that's the situation with, with those two. I certainly think that once this, you know, band aid's been ripped, I think you could see more in the coming days. I don't know exactly when, but I think that if some point reaches, he feels like this person is no longer useful to me, then he'll make a change.

Kristen Welker (49:59)

Okay. All right, guys, thank you so much for being here on this Easter Sunday. Great conversation. We really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. Have a very happy Easter and pass over to all those who celebrate. We will be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.

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