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Meet the Press
Meet the Press NOW — July 28
00:49:16
President Trump, lawmakers and world leaders attend Senator Lindsey Graham’s funeral. Documentary filmmaker Alex Holder shares never-before-seen footage of Lindsey Graham as the late senator grapples with the war in Ukraine and reflects on his entry into politics. Congresswoman Haley Stevens and Abdul El-Sayed face off in their final debate in the closely watched Democratic primary for Michigan’s open Senate seat.
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- [00:00]
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Gabe Gutierrez
Welcome to Meet THE press now. I'm Gabe Gutierrez and it has been a solemn day here in Washington as the president, lawmakers and world leaders all pay tribute to the late Senator Lindsey Graham, his death leaving a void for policymakers at home and abroad as the US Charts a path forward in two major global conflicts. They're looking at live pictures of Graham's funeral service at the National Cathedral here in Washington. Right now, they're nearing the conclusion of the ceremony and in just a few moments, we expect to see Senator Graham's casket carried out of the church with his family looking on at the service this afternoon, President Trump paying tribute to the late senator. Here's some of what he said.
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Donald Trump
But even though Lindsey's life was cut short while he was still so full of vim and vigor, there can be no doubt that he lived absolutely to the fullest. He died doing the work he was born to do. Above all, Lindsey Graham believed in a strong America, wanted a strong America. He had unwavering faith in the righteousness of American power and prayer. He was extremely hawkish. I will tell you, he never saw war that he didn't like. Only his true friends would understand that. But he wanted it for the good of our country. He felt in his bones that our destiny is to win and that his job was to do everything he could to ensure our enemies would lose.
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Gabe Gutierrez
This all follows a somber ceremony on Capitol Hill honoring Senator Graham's more than three decades of service in Congress. Military pallbearers as you see there, carrying the flag draped casket up the steps of the Capitol and into the rotunda where current and former lawmakers from both sides of the aisle, visibly emotional, mourned his death. All of this coming at a pivotal time amid the ongoing wars in Ukraine and Iran, both of which the late Senator Graham was deeply involved with and was a key voice in shaping the administration's policies. Both Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are in Washington to attend Senator Graham's funeral. And this morning, they met separately with President Trump at the White House as questions swirl about how the administration plans to move forward on both wars. The meeting today between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu was their first face to face discussion since the US And Israel launched joint strikes on Iran back in February. Today, the war is entering its sixth month, despite the president initially saying it would last four to six weeks. Tensions between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu have been escalating, with the president growing increasingly frustrated with Netanyahu's approach to the war, at one point calling it, quote, crazy. Here's President Trump earlier today brushing aside reports that Netanyahu was headed to the White House with intelligence on Iran's nuclear site. Push pickaxe mounted.
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Interviewer
There are reports now that Netanyahu is going to talk to you about ongoing excavation at Pickaxe Mountain, construction vehicles entering and exiting tunnels, paving new access roads. Satellite imagery and intel indicates that Iran is actively constructing and fortifying Pickaxe Mountain. How will we respond?
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Donald Trump
Well, I don't need Bibi to tell me that. Bibi's telling me that because he wants me to stay involved. I know exactly what's going on at Pickax. It's not a big problem. We took out their nuclear sites and we'll have to take out Pickaxe. If we don't make a deal, we don't make a deal. We'll take it out very easily.
- [04:50]
Gabe Gutierrez
And joining me now is NBC News White House correspondent Monica Alba. And with me here on set are NBC News international correspondent Matt Bradley and NBC News senior national Security correspondent Courtney Kuby. Monica, I want to start with you, though. Let's start with ceremonies today honoring Senator Graham. What do you make of the president's remarks? And what does this all mean for the president's foreign policy moving forward?
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Monica Alba
Yeah, clearly the late senator was a very influential voice on foreign policy for this president and for this administration. It wasn't just President Trump who spoke about that, but many others have really recalled how relentless Lindsey Graham was in reaching out and calling senior aides and really making his viewpoint pretty clear. But President Trump went all the way back to 2016 to sort of trace the evolution of their relationship and the fact that obviously he was a rival when they first met, when they were both running for the GOP nomination. And in his typical fashion, the president certainly tried to inject his own humor into this and spoke about some funnier stories and anecdotes that the two had certainly been a part of and shared, recalling in particular that moment where he gave out Lindsey Graham's cell phone. And then, of course, he said that it was Lindsey who got the last laugh, according to the president, because he's the one who called him pretty much nonstop for the last decade. So really tracing his own legacy, his own influence, and acknowledging that very close personal relationship that the had.
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Gabe Gutierrez
And Monica, a lot to follow here in Washington. Washington, today. What do we know about the president's meeting with Netanyahu earlier today and his thinking right now? The president's thinking when it comes to Iran?
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Monica Alba
Yeah, I mean, certainly this is a meeting that was added because the prime minister was going to be here for the late senator's funeral. But it does come at a time when there is plenty to discuss from the Israeli perspective inside of things. And they have released a readout of this. The White House has not given their full details on how the meeting went, apart from calling it productive and positive. But according to Prime Minister Netanyahu, they discussed the issue with Lebanon, which of course, has been a big focus for the Trump administration in recent weeks, and seeing how that agreement can continue to improve in the coming days and weeks, which has been kind of happening on a parallel track, but specifically with Iran. Israel has been very clear about its position. And today does mark five months since the US And Israel started those joint strikes in Iran. And certainly Prime Minister Netanyahu has been clear about his position that he would like to see that continue. He would like to see a military escalation. President Trump, though, as you played in the introduction, Gabe, has made clear that he'll be making those decisions on his own, regardless of input potentially from the Israeli prime minister.
- [07:32]
Gabe Gutierrez
Monica, stay with us. I want to turn out, according to Kubi, according to the president, said today that the US could take out Pickaxe Mountain, quote, very easily. What's the reality there?
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Courtney Kuby
And he's been threatening to go after Pickaxe now for, for several days. The reality is it depends on exactly what he means by take it out. Right. So the, the US could absolutely conduct airstrikes there. They've got what they need to do it. We've seen that. We saw them with these deep penetrating bombs last year. And in fact, the US has even flown bombers in recent weeks into Iran. So it's totally possible that they could do it. But what's the question is, can they really actually get after what they would need to in Pickaxe to make a real difference to the nuclear program? There has been some satellite imagery from think tanks and nonpartisan groups that have shown increased activity or continuing activity around Pickaxe even after Midnight Hammer last year. And the concern is that there could be some centrifuges in there that could provide Iran with the ability to enrich uranium and to potentially further their nuclear program. But it's buried so deeply underground, it's not really clear if US Bombs could even reach it. And then again, it gets back to this overall strategic goal of this war of eliminating the nuclear program. If in fact they were to strike Pickaxe but not actually send ground troops in, would that actually eliminate their ability to have a nuclear weapon long term?
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Gabe Gutierrez
And, Matt, I want to turn to you, by the way. Good to have you here on set. You're based in Israel, but.
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Donald Trump
That's right.
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Gabe Gutierrez
DC Today we mentioned that in the introduction that the relationship between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu is becoming more and more strained as this war goes on. What are you hearing about that relationship? And is it, in fact, getting more strained the longer this war drags on?
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Matt Bradley
Yeah, I mean, I think we can see it with some of the movements at the White House. You know, some of the conversation that we saw even today, this was kind of a make or break moment for Prime Minister Netanyah. And the more that this war kind of drags on, that's one issue. But the real issue here is the impending elections coming up for Benjamin Netanyahu and in a way, to a lesser extent, for Trump. With the midterm elections. Both men are facing serious contests that are going to be judging their behavior in this region, in the Middle east, in Iran. And so both of them are feeling what is essentially bubbling up domestic pressure underneath them. You know, Benjamin Netanyahu has long been trying to paint himself, stylize himself as the Trump whisperer, as the Washington whisperer. And now he has a president who has publicly excoriated him.
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Gabe Gutierrez
Yeah. Getting harder to do that for a domestic audience or at least project that image to a domestic audience. Courtney, regardless of what Prime Minister Netanyahu told President Trump behind closed doors in the Oval Office today, do you get the sense that the administration really wants to escalate this war?
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Courtney Kuby
I think there are. There are completely competing narratives in the administration. That's the problem. The reason that there hasn't been a clear path forward here, despite how many meetings have they had where they've tried to discuss the policy and the strategy, and there isn't one that has emerged here. And I think that's because there are two different sides. There are those who want to try to figure out some way to make diplomacy work, and then there are the others who are saying, look, a couple more weeks of strikes, you know, they can take out the rest of their production capabilities. They can go after the remaining missiles, the launchers, potentially going after the nuclear sites. And then maybe they could actually say they have really degraded Iran's military capabilities, their conventional capabilities, to the point where it would be really difficult for them to rebuild a nuclear program. But at this point, it doesn't seem like there is any consensus within the higher levels of the Trump administration to provide him with some sort of a decision that he can then give to the military. That is why we saw these 13 days of consecutive strikes that were occurring that were all in one area. It never really expanded out. We didn't see any escalation. We didn't see them move into new locations. It was very tailored to the coastal area.
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Gabe Gutierrez
And, Matt, as we look at some live pictures of this funeral ceremony ending at the National Cathedral, we know that Senator Graham had a close relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu. Do officials in Israel feel that they've lost this close ally by losing Senator Graham? And does it leave a hole in the Trump administration, in their view?
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Matt Bradley
Yeah, absolutely right, Gabe. I mean, they definitely feel the loss of Senator Graham, who was a singular advocate for Israel and for this war and Iran, as we saw from that documentary footage that came out over the past couple of days. But really, it's more than that. Senator Graham was also. His passing represents kind of a changing of the guard. He was part of a dwindling breach of Republicans who saw Israel not just as an American ally or a close American ally, but as part and parcel with American interests. They saw Israel as an extension of America's ideology, of its security interests and of its sensibilities in the region. So really, when they see someone like Graham passing away, it doesn't just mean they're losing one voice. It means there's very few voices left who are willing to take that stand.
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Gabe Gutierrez
And, Courtney, President Trump has downplayed concerns about the depleted U.S. weapons stockpile. Yesterday he said that, you know, he blamed the Biden administration for giving weapons to Ukraine. Are those two things related?
- [12:49]
Courtney Kuby
Yes, that's been their talking point. Secretary Hegseth has said that on Capitol Hill as well, that the Biden administration depleted the munitions. That's actually yes, the Biden administration did provide munitions, but one of the biggest ones that they provided were 155 rounds. That's not what the US is using right now when it, when it comes to Iran. And the reality is the US has been depleting the stockpiles of these very critical longer range defensive munitions. So the Patriots and the Thaads beginning last June, June of 2025, when the US was defending Israel during the 12 Day War and defending against attacks from Iran, also defending against attacks from the Houthis. So there has been this consistent op tempo that really then sped up, of course, in February. So the stockpiles are low. President Trump is telling the truth when he says we have tons of bombs, we have the ability to carry out this. And that is because they do have a lot of those offensive munitions. It's the long range precision ones that are the concern.
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Gabe Gutierrez
And I did think it was interesting yesterday he did acknowledge that, oh, he'd like to have more. But according to QB Matt Bradley, thank you so much for being here. I want to turn very quickly to Monica Alba back at the White House. Monica, President Trump, as we mentioned, also met with Ukraine's President Zelensky today. What more do we know about that meeting? And just how much of a void will Senator Graham's passing leaves leave in terms of support for Ukraine? We just discussed Israel, but what about Ukraine?
- [14:09]
Monica Alba
And of course, it was Ukraine that Senator Graham was returning from when he did fall ill and eventually passed away. He had just come back from meeting with President Zelensky and he is the one who is sharing some details about this meeting. Again, we're learning more from the other countries as opposed to the White House on exactly what was discussed. But Ukrainian officials essentially said that this is a moment in which they feel that diplomatic pursuits, that peace talks can be, quote, reinvigorated potentially with some moves by the Trump administration. We'll see what that actually amounts to. But remember something that we covered, Gabe, back when we were in Turkey, which is this idea that the US Is going to grant license, the license to Ukraine to create their own Patriot missile interceptors. Now, that will take a long time. So it's unclear whether anything would be ready in time for the battle, battlefield needs of the moment. But that was something that President Zelensky was touting that they discussed today in the Oval Office as well.
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Gabe Gutierrez
Monica Alba live for us at the White House. Monica, thank you. And joining me now here on set is Elise labitt, host of the Cosmopolitics podcast. Lisa, I want to get to Ukraine in just a moment, but I do want to start with Iran. As we mentioned, President Trump initially said that this would be a four to six week excursion. We're now about to enter the sixth month or are entering the sixth month of this war. What's your read on where things stand right now?
- [15:34]
Elise Labitt
I think both sides want to escalate, don't want to escalate. They want to kind of try and find a way back to the table. But at the same time, neither one is really willing to give up on those core concessions. So. And when you talk about Prime Minister Netanyahu and his relationship to President Trump, I think it's President Prime Minister Netanyahu has been the same all along. It's President Trump that kind of vacillates. And it's like, pick a pedal. I love Bibi when I want to escalate and I don't when I want to pull back. So the relationship is, you know, pretty steady. If President Trump would pick a side, he, I think, doesn't really know what he wants to do. He's facing these political pressures of the midterm. Prime Minister Netanyahu, Gabe, he has his own personal interests, as we've been talking about his political interests in the election. And then he has Israel's interests. So that's just really finite. But President Trump, you know, you could talk about America first, but he's got the world economy, he's got other allies in the Gulf. And, you know, he has a lot more equities. So he's, he's really not sure whether he wants to go for it with Prime Minister Netanyahu or climb back.
- [16:42]
Gabe Gutierrez
And as we're looking at these live pictures of guests leaving the memorial service at the National Cathedral, Prime Minister Netanyahu, by the way, among those guests you were talking about. Yes. The, the relationship between the two leaders, how it's been President Trump that has kind of waffled here. What do you think would, what would Prime Minister Netanyahu consider a success coming here to Washington today, a meeting that he's asked for before and, you know, perhaps surprisingly, some their first face to face discussion, what would he consider a victory coming out of this meeting today
- [17:15]
Elise Labitt
with the president, an agreement to keep escalating. I think that's really what President Trump has been vacillating on. And that's what Prime Minister Netanyahu. He's not ready for this war to end. He can't have it end, because once it ends, it's pretty clear from the Israeli public and that his political career, if not his, you know, freedom, would be over. If he loses the election, then he can be convicted and put in jail. And so, again, he's got those very narrow interests. President Trump has a much broader set of interests.
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Gabe Gutierrez
Incredibly high stakes for Prime Minister Netanyahu, but also for another world leader that came here to Washington today, Ukrainian President Zelensky. He called it a good meeting that he had with President Trump earlier today. And we're looking actually right now live pictures of President Zelensky meeting or leaving the memorial service right there. Both world leaders, as I said, very high stakes day for them. Would you say President Trump is warming to Zelensky? Has their. Has their relationship? Has it turned a corner? I remember being at the White House early on in the administration and, you know, seeing that Oval Office meeting and how shocking it was. My goodness, what a year and a half.
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Elise Labitt
I was going to say the same thing. What a difference a year and change makes. At the time, President Trump is saying to Zelensky, you don't have the cards. Today, President Zelensky is coming with the cards. Not only has Ukraine, you know, made advances on the battlefield, but I think what really interests Trump even more is not just his the Ukrainians resilience, but the innovation that the Ukrainians have showed in drone technology that they're not just using on the battlefield in Russia, but they're also helping the Gulf. You saw Zelensky travel out to the Gulf to meet with countries about defending Iran. And I think it's really, you know, to bring it back to the funeral. On Lindsey Graham that day that you were in the Oval Office with that horrible meeting, the next day, Lindsey Graham was like, all right, we got to get this relationship back on track. And I think what he did was help the leaders, you know, calm it down. I think he helped President Trump understand Zelensky and the Ukrainians a little better. And I think he helped Zelensky translate Trump, and I think Zelensky understands Trump a little better. And now everyone's. Everyone's looking at Zelinsky a little bit different. Everybody. You know, when you were in Turkey with Courtney, they were talking about, you know, Ukraine and Naito. Now NATO is studying Ukraine.
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Alex Holder
Right.
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Elise Labitt
As you know, how to innovate and develop your own strategic autonomy.
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Gabe Gutierrez
The drone technology has been very impressive. And the President, President Trump has said so.
- [19:55]
Monica Alba
He likes the winner.
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Gabe Gutierrez
That's right. Exactly right. You know, Zelensky today, he said that the President also spoke about the prediction Patriot interceptor production and the licenses during Naito. President Trump had discussed this, but what's the reality here? How long could it take for, you know, these Patriot interceptors to be produced in Ukraine? It couldn't take a significant amount of time.
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Elise Labitt
It could take a few years. But look at what the Ukrainians have done with their own drone technology just in the last few years. I mean, we continue to underestimate the Ukrainians.
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Monica Alba
So.
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Elise Labitt
So there's a difference between the actual production line time and the perception that the Ukrainians are on the front foot there on the ones in advance. The Russians are on the back foot. There's also this whole issue that the Russians have maybe been supplying the Iranians with intelligence to go after US bases. So President Trump has kind of been loathe to turn against Putin. But when you see a winner like President Zelensky and you see that the US could actually help turn the tide and you see, you know, he's supposed to ask President Putin if he provided the intelligence. I think he knows what the truth is. So it'll be interesting to see, you know, obviously about the Patriots, but just the perception in President Trump's mind about whether to back Ukraine.
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Gabe Gutierrez
Elise Lava, thank you so much for your expertise. We really appreciate it.
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Alex Holder
You bet.
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Gabe Gutierrez
And we'll have much more on the life and legacy legacy of Senator Lindsey Graham, including never before seen footage from the documentary crew that followed the Senator for years, right up until his death. A conversation with the film's director is next. Plus the escalating fight between Republican Senate Majority Leader John Thune and the White House over the President's push to overhaul the Senate's rules so he can overhaul voting ahead of the midterms. You're watching Meet the Press now. Stay with us.
- [21:52]
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Donald Trump
Running against each other back in 2016, Lindsay said something rather nasty on his flight to becoming the next president of the United States. So naturally I did something that I shouldn't have done. I shared his personal cell phone number with the millions of people that happened to be watching that particular day as I made a speech, a very important speech, and I remember the number 202-228-0292 if anybody wants to give it a shot. His phone exploded, he said. I had that number for 20 years, his phone. Totally. I don't know what he did with it, but it exploded. That was the beginning of a friendship in a way. But it was Lindsey who had the last laugh. Because while I blew up his phone, all for one day, we became great friends and Lindsey did not stop calling me for the next 10 years. It was not easy.
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Gabe Gutierrez
Welcome back. That was President Trump this afternoon paying tribute to late Senator Lindsey Graham. And as we mentioned, the president, much of his Cabinet, as well as lawmakers and world leaders, joined Graham's family and friends at the Washington National Cathedral to remember the South Carolina senator. And this was moments ago, the casket leaving the National Cathedral en route to remembrances in South Carolina tomorrow. A very somber moment there. And the ceremony was also held today at the Capitol. Senator's sister, Darlene Graham, who is serving the remainder of his term and running for his seat in South Carolina, visibly emotional as his casket arrived at the Capitol and the Capitol Rotunda, lawmakers honored both Graham's military service and his more than three decades in Congress, and they were tributes from both the vice president and the Senate majority leader.
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Senator's Colleague or Speaker at Funeral
I choose to remember Lindsey Graham as a man who could disagree with you without being disagreeable. I choose to remember Lindsey Graham as a person who could fight with you on one issue but fight for you on another issue.
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During the work week here in Washington, a lot of us are away from our family, so we often get together in groups for dinner. And let me tell you, Lindsay was always the first Call into Lindsay restaurant. Rest in peace, my friend.
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Gabe Gutierrez
I look forward to the days
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Senator's Colleague or Speaker at Funeral
when you make us all laugh again.
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Gabe Gutierrez
Today we're also getting a rare behind the scenes look at the Senator's life. Documentary filmmaker Alex Holder spent more than four years with Senator Graham, right up until his death, recording hundreds of hours of his remarkable day to day and capturing key moments that offer a glimpse into into his influential role on major foreign policy events. Like these revealing scenes just days after the beginning of the Iran war. Take a look.
- [26:03]
Alex Holder
Look what we've done here.
- [26:04]
I know.
- [26:04]
I almost cried. Yeah, I mean, like, how long have
- [26:08]
we been pushing this?
- [26:09]
I mean, you've been pushing this for years.
- [26:11]
Right?
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Donald Trump
Right.
- [26:12]
It's here.
- [26:12]
Alex Holder
I told Trump it's born. Well, he's Jack. It's the best thing I've ever done. He.
- [26:20]
Gabe Gutierrez
He loves blowing stuff up.
- [26:22]
Alex Holder
Hey, baby. Lindsay.
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Donald Trump
Hey, Lindsay. How are you?
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Alex Holder
I couldn't. I'm just so impressed. Glad to be your friend.
- [26:32]
Donald Trump
I'm glad you are my friend.
- [26:34]
Alex Holder
I'm going to meet with the President this weekend. I'm going down to Doral. I'm going to try to get him to join with y' all in Lebanon to maybe fly some with you. Would you like that?
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Gabe Gutierrez
Kristen Welker recently sat down with documentarian Alex Holder, who was attending Graham's funeral today. She began by asking him what it was like to hear the news of Graham's sudden death while the documentary was still in the midst of filming.
- [27:01]
Alex Holder
It was very shocking. I mean, we were with him just a few days before. He actually sent me a text how happy he was that the White House had just signed off on his sanctions bill. You know, he'd just come back from Ukraine. And then we find out this news. I mean, it was tragic. And our plan was to keep filming all the way until the midterms.
- [27:19]
Kristen Welker
You had Alex, absolutely unprecedented access to him. We're talking four and a half years. Take us behind the scenes. What was that experience like, to have that view of such a dynamic figure in the Senate?
- [27:36]
Alex Holder
Yeah, it was absolutely fascinating. I think there was no way I would possibly have imagined that we would have got the access that we ended up getting. You know, it takes time. But the truth is, is that to think that we would be in Saudi Arabia multiple times in the Crown Prince's residence with him at high level meetings, you know, we weren't just like sort of going up to the front door and then it would be closed. We were going in the room and capturing some of these, you know, fascinating, consequential moments in some of the most important issues in really modern history. I mean, Ukraine, Russia, we were with him there with President Zelensky, the Iran war with the US And Israel with that. I think I was probably in. In Israel with him more than five or six times, Saudi Arabia twice. And he's trying to also deal with the Israel, Saudi reconciliation. And then we're obviously with him in D.C. and, you know, it was really that there was no limits. I mean, he was incredibly open to allowing us to capture, you know, private conversations, phone calls.
- [28:39]
Kristen Welker
What did you learn about Senator Graham from those interactions that you got to witness with these world leaders?
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Alex Holder
I actually call Lindsey, the Secretary of the State for the Senate. I mean, he really was, you know, just such an important, you know, figure. You know, controversial, complicated, very funny. And, you know, I think he, to me, he proved that you can disagree with somebody's politics vociferously, but you can still also have a very good relationship with them as well.
- [29:14]
Kristen Welker
You talk about his sense of humor, and I think that one of the characteristics that I will remember most is how much he loved what he did. He loved being a part of the debate. He loved meeting with these world leaders and trying to shape foreign policy. How much was he driven by his passion, his love for what he was doing?
- [29:39]
Alex Holder
Absolutely. It was his life. There was nothing else except what he was doing day in, day out. I mean, from the text messages, the phone calls flying around. He used to sleep in the aisle of the plane because these planes don't have life flats. So he would literally sleep with his sleeping bag in the aisle of these planes. And people would have to step over him to go to the bathroom during these long flights. I mean, I think one of the very interesting things I noticed with him was actually he didn't really take it for granted. He actually found the fact that he was probably one of the closest people to the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia unusual. He found it actually quite funny. And he would say, how is it possible that, you know, a senator from South Carolina is here in Saudi Arabia at 2 o' clock in the morning with the Crown prince? So he didn't take it for granted. And he found what he was doing, you know, like, very important, but also very fun. And he called this process a game. So, you know, we've kind of termed the documentary Lindsay's Game at the moment.
- [30:43]
Kristen Welker
I can't wait to see the full documentary. I want to play a clip from it. This was from one of the last times that you were with him. March 11, 2020. Six, show a little bit of what you captured.
- [30:55]
Alex Holder
I'm tired, guys. I got a lot of pressure on me right now. Trump has got me involved in Ukraine, Russia, though. You know, this war can't go on much longer. We're going to lose support. You know, Trump is losing support. It just, you know, the war fatigue is real, and I don't want to get a deal when everything collapses. I want to get a deal when we still have some leverage, and right now, we still have leverage.
- [31:34]
Kristen Welker
Alex, you can hear the exhaustion in his voice there. What do you take away from that moment and his insistence the United States had to get a deal to bring this war to an end? It was his life's work.
- [31:49]
Alex Holder
Yeah, no, I remember that very clearly. He had just come out the Senate. We were going in the car, and, you know, it's one of those few moments with him, and he, you know, he knew that we were always filming. Right. So every now and then you would get these fascinating, you know, like this color of really what's going on, you know, inside. Right. And after we left that evening, I said, you know, are you sleeping? And, you know, he said, no, he's not. He was also surprised that other senators and other colleagues were not helping him in the various things that he was dealing with. So, you know, it was. There was no question. He felt under pressure.
- [32:27]
Kristen Welker
He died so suddenly. You hear the exhaustion in his voice there. Did you have any sense that there was anything wrong medically? Did he complain about anything medically?
- [32:38]
Alex Holder
He would always, you know, there were times where he would make fun of his mortality, so he would always say things like, you know, can't die now, or, you know, still got a lot to do before the end of 2026. You know, we were with him just after his primary victory in South Carolina the day after, and in a bagel shop that he used to go to when he was a kid. When he was a student. Yeah, at university. And so we were filming there, and he just. He really looked exhausted. And again, he made that point about, you know, there's a lot to do before the end of 2026.
- [33:09]
Kristen Welker
In remarkable twist, his sister, Darlene Graham Norton, has stepped into his seat. She actually says she wants to run for his seat at this point in time, but you captured this really remarkable moment between the two of them. This is December of 2022. I want to play a little bit of that and get your reaction on the other side.
- [33:30]
Alex Holder
So where do you think the politics came from? I mean, if you're. Your parents are particularly Political. Where do you think your brother's sort of political genesis started?
- [33:40]
Darlene Graham
Well, I know he originally wanted to be an Air Force pilot, but because of his hearing issue, he couldn't do that, so he chose a different route.
- [33:49]
Muscle Milk Advertiser
I don't know.
- [33:49]
Darlene Graham
When did you get interested in politics?
- [33:51]
Alex Holder
I think history.
- [33:52]
Elise Labitt
History? Yeah.
- [33:54]
Alex Holder
You know, I remember when President Kennedy was assassinated. First time I ever saw my grandmother cry. And I was intrigued about somebody I didn't know that could make my grandmother cry, and the power of that event, how it affected the whole family, the whole country. So as a kid, I was intrigued. Like, what is it about that person, that job, that gets so many people, you know, emotionally involved?
- [34:20]
What do you think your. Your parents would. Would make of your brother?
- [34:24]
Darlene Graham
Oh, they were be so proud. Yeah. Especially my mom.
- [34:31]
Donald Trump
What's it.
- [34:31]
Alex Holder
What do you reckon, specifically?
- [34:34]
Darlene Graham
Well, I. I can just remember when he went away to college, how proud she was of him. And he would take the bus home. The bus stop was up the street. And the days he would come home from college be like, lindsay's coming home today. And I would get so excited. I would run up to the bus stop and get him when we'd come home. And I remember just watching the look on her face when he would walk through the door. So, yeah, my parents were very proud. I remember the first in our family to ever go to college. I mean, I don't think they even finished high school.
- [35:05]
Kristen Welker
It's just remarkable to see the relationship between Senator Graham and his sister. They were incredibly close. They lost their parents at a relatively young age. What did you learn about their relationship?
- [35:18]
Alex Holder
So after the rest of that clip, he actually says a very Lindsey Graham comment. He goes, it sounds like you're writing my obituary right now. He was a private guy, so I think actually filming that was really interesting to see that dynamic. He was very close with his sister and with her children, and I think he would be very proud of the fact that she stepped in. I mean, that's my own personal opinion. And, you know, they didn't talk politics, the two of them.
- [35:46]
Kristen Welker
They didn't?
- [35:47]
Alex Holder
No. I mean, I actually asked. One of the other questions I asked is whether or not they spoke politics, and they didn't really discuss. I think she was more concerned about, you know, the amount of time that he was spending traveling. So I think there was a lot of affection, for sure, towards him from her.
- [36:01]
Kristen Welker
It's fascinating to see that window into their relationship. So you think he would be very proud of the fact that she stepped into his Senate seat? She's running for reelection or for election, I should say. And politics is tough. It's a tough sport. Undoubtedly he'd be supportive. But would he be concerned too, do you think? A little bit for her to enter this arena?
- [36:27]
Alex Holder
I think so, yes. I think so. I think he, he just had a certain way about him where the criticism, he could brush it off. He actually found it very funny. I used to read tweets that people would say to him, critical tweets, and his approach towards those tweets were quite amusing. He just really didn't actually care about. He would call people spirited if they argue with him. He knew what he wanted. He really was a very political player.
- [36:56]
Kristen Welker
And just finally, overall, what do you think the legacy of Lindsey Graham will
- [37:02]
Alex Holder
be a consequential political player in some of the most important and significant political and geopolitical events in modern history? As to how history will judge him, you know, we don't know yet because we don't know how these events will unfold. But I think for sure how important he was.
- [37:23]
Kristen Welker
Well, Alex Holder, it's a fascinating and insightful conversation and the clips alone are just extraordinary and really looking forward to seeing the full documentary. Thank you for being here to help us remember Senator Lindsey Graham. We really appreciate it.
- [37:38]
Alex Holder
Thank you.
- [37:39]
Gabe Gutierrez
And our thanks to Kristen and Alex Holder for that conversation. Coming up, a fiery debate night in Michigan where the progressive and establishment wings of the Democratic Party duked it out on the debate stage ahead of next week's Senate primary.
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- [39:44]
Gabe Gutierrez
Welcome back. There is officially one week to go before the critical Michigan Democratic Senate primary where the progressive wing of the party is trying to score another victory over the Democratic establishment in a race that is must win for Democrats if they want to take control of the Senate. The two candidates, Congresswoman Haley Stevens and Abdul Al Sayed, had their final and fiery debate last night. Looming over the debate and the entire race is the issue of US Support for Israel and the influence of the pro Israel lobbying group aipac, with the two trading barbs on Israel policy and El Sayed repeatedly slamming Stevens for taking money from AIPAC's super PAC.
- [40:25]
Haley Stevens
In terms of foreign policy, you know, Abdul and I do differ. I believe in a two state solution. He has attacked me by name for purporting that the people of Palestine and the people of Israel deserve to live side by side peacefully.
- [40:41]
Josh Orton
But no concern about the 46 million
- [40:43]
Abdul El Sayed
plus dollars spent on the behalf of AIPAC. That should worry people about perhaps you doing their bidding should you win the seat.
- [40:49]
Haley Stevens
Well, I don't think there's much difference between Super PACs going in for Abdul or Super PACs going in for me.
- [40:55]
Abdul El Sayed
So I just want to say, say the difference between us is $46 million of APAC spending. They've set a record in this race to help elect my opponent because they know that she'll be a reliable vote.
- [41:07]
Gabe Gutierrez
And joining me now is NBC's Shaquille Brewster who's been covering this race for us. And Shaq, APAC was obviously a big focus last night, but what else did we hear?
- [41:16]
Shaquille Brewster
Yeah, gave a lot of conversation about campaign finance, some conversation about tax returns, but was what was striking was was just how much this debate was about the direction, the ideological direction of the Democratic Party. For El Sayed, he's painting himself as the progressive fighter. He's advocating Medicare for all, abolishing ice, eliminating medical debt for Congresswoman Stevens she's painting herself as the effective legislator. She's talking about how she can push bipartisan legislation. She's talking about legislation that she successfully got passed in the. In the past. So I want you to listen to how you hear these candidates on the debate stage, how you heard them use that messaging to attack the other.
- [41:59]
Abdul El Sayed
When you're bought off by DTE and Blue Cross and Big Pharma and Big Tech and apac, don't be surprised that there's a pro quo that comes with that quid. Ask yourself if DTE funds both Mike Rogers and Haley Stevens, who wins? DTE wins. And Blue Cross and Big Pharma and Big Tech and apac, all funded by the same people. We need a choice. I'm the only candidate in this race who does not take corporate money.
- [42:23]
Haley Stevens
I was named Michigan's most effective Democratic lawmaker in Congress because my only focus is you. Abdul is running for celebrity. You know, he's had all this attention, but the deal is, is we don't need a celebrity candidate. We don't need a celebrity senator. Senator. We need somebody who is committed to six years of hard, unglamorous work.
- [42:48]
Shaquille Brewster
Gabe, you know this. These are two Democrats on the debate stage right there. So there is a lot of policy overlap. But you heard a lot about those ideological differences on that stage last night.
- [42:59]
Gabe Gutierrez
And Jack, Congresswoman Stevens repeatedly touted her endorsement from Governor Whitmore. Could that be a big boost for her? But how much sway does the governor's opinion really have in Michigan at this point in this particular race?
- [43:12]
Shaquille Brewster
Well, it really seems as if the campaign thinks that Whitmer's endorsement does have a lot of sway. There was a new ad that was released by a Pro Stevens super PAC even today starring the governor. And there was some polling that suggested that from undecided voters. When you look at undecided voters, about half of them before this endorsement said that the person who Whitmer endorses would be the person they're more likely to end up supporting. But, Gabe, these endorsements have been flying all around this campaign. If you look at Stevens, you see she's backed by Chuck Schumer. You see she's backed by outgoing and retiring Senator Gary Peters. If you look at EL Sayed, he's backed by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, representative of Alexandria, Ocasio Cortez. All three of them of those figures were in Michigan over the past two weekends campaigning with him. So those endorsements are going to play a big factor. But you're seeing Governor Whitmer, the popular governor of the state of Michigan, front and center in Stevens campaign.
- [44:12]
Gabe Gutierrez
Certainly a race that the entire political world will be watching. Shaq, thank you. And Shaq will be heading to Michigan ahead of next week's primary and will be part of our special coverage that night. Still to come, we'll take a deeper dive into the political fallout of that Michigan Senate debate and what it means for the future of the Democratic Party. The panel's next. You're watching MEET THE PRESS now. Stay with us. And welcome back. Joining me now is today's panel, Mariana Sotomayor, Capitol Hill correspondent for Puck News Josh Orton, Democratic strategist and president of Demand justice and Michael Dubke, who has served as the White House communications director during the first Trump administration. Thank you all so much for joining me here on the panel. Marianna, let's pick up where Shaq left off in our previous segment. What do you make of the way that the race in Michigan has unfolded?
- [45:07]
Mariana Sotomayor
I mean, it is pretty messy and chaotic and I'm sure that that may be confusing a couple of voters who are tuning in these last week to the primary election. I've been starting to also talk to a number of both Democratic House and Senate strategists about this race. Why? Because obviously whoever wins will have implications for potentially the down ballot House Democratic candidates running in this state that is very swingy in different parts of the state, obviously the state itself. It really depends on who you ask whether they believe that Haley Stevens will pull it out or if elsay it will pull it out.
- [45:43]
Gabe Gutierrez
You know, we were mentioning the endorsement of Governor Whitman more, you know, for Stevens, someone that significant who is not yet endorsed is Senator Slotkin. Are you surprised by that?
- [45:55]
Mariana Sotomayor
You know, I think she has a future race on top of the top of mind 2028 doesn't probably want to put the wrong car or the cart behind the wrong horse there. But Whitmer was significant. Also something that caught my eye last week during that endorsement. Jim Clyburn was there. We all remember in 2020, he was the kingmaker for Joe Biden among black voters in South Carolina. I'm not sure that's going to translate in Michigan, but it's not insignificant that he was there because she has been trying to court those voters. Black voters haven't really been turning out or been a base for El Sayed if he ends up winning, that is a base that is significant that if a Democrat wants to win in the Senate, they really have to appeal to.
- [46:38]
Gabe Gutierrez
And Josh, we were talking a lot with Shaq about The issue of Israel on and the role it's playing in this race. Is the Democratic tent large enough for both sides? Large enough for both sides of this debate?
- [46:48]
Josh Orton
Well, I think I would refer back to what Mayor Mamdani actually said recently when he was asked about this question, which is that there's room in the Democratic tent for all sorts of people so long as they want to, you know, consider themselves a Democrat and have good faith arguments. I do think in this race one of Haley Stevens biggest liabilities is not just her position on Israel, but but as Abdul has been prosecuting this APEC money because it's sort of a double word score problem here. It's not just that the war in Iran and the funding for Israel has become grossly unpopular, but poll after poll show that people believe that the billionaire class and corporations flooding money into politics is one of the biggest, most damaging problems in a democracy. And when you combine those two, it's a real problem.
- [47:33]
Gabe Gutierrez
Michael, on that point, you know, Republicans, the conventional wisdom is that they would want to run against a more progressive candidate in a general election. But also, yeah, he's kind of running this like populist campaign. Should Republicans not write him off if he doesn't win this prize?
- [47:50]
Michael Dubke
Well, I think it's going to be competitive. It's, I'm going to steal your word. Swingy. Michigan's a swingy state. I thought the most interesting thing said last night was not the Israel Palestine debate. It was more where El said I'm not a socialist. I mean, he's got Bernie Sanders coming to town. He's got AOC coming to town and he's saying I'm not a socialist. So I think he's realizing that if I get painted into this corner, it's going to make it easier for Republicans to continue the color in the numbers and really paint me into a corner here. So he's trying to box himself out of that. But no, Republicans would much rather run. I'm sure Mike Rogers would much rather run against a farther left Democrat than a more centrist Democratic woman, which he did in 2024.
- [48:39]
Gabe Gutierrez
Well, Mariana, I want to turn now to some of the news of day that we were talking about earlier in in the show. President Trump speaking at the funeral for the late Senator Lindsey Graham. As we've mentioned quite a bit, Senator Graham had the president's ear when it came to many significant, significant foreign policy challenges. What do you think? What type of hold does this leave in the administration when it comes to foreign policy? Who has the president's ear right now on Capitol Hill.
- [49:08]
Mariana Sotomayor
I mean, it is huge. And a lot of senators are lamenting that reality, not to mention the fact that also someone who does not have the White House's ear necessarily, but Mitch McConnell is obviously retiring at the end of this term. There's discussions about how you don't have these, let's say, old school Republicans who very much pride themselves in maintaining foreign relationships, maintaining relationships with allies at a time when Trump and a lot of his followers have been, you know, clamoring America First. We obviously seen those actions too much from the White House in the last couple of years. But this is a really big blow. We know today that the Senate will reconvene this evening to start debate on those Russia sanctions now named after Lindsey Graham. It's kind of crazy to think that he was able to change Trump's mind on that issue just a day before he died. That is going to be part of his lasting legacy. But it's huge. Right now the White House is obviously sparring a bit more with John Thune, the Senate Majority leader on a number of other issues. So foreign policy isn't necessarily front of mind. And even Congress, I would say, though, they're talking about Iran funding. That's probably not going to get done anytime soon.
- [50:18]
Gabe Gutierrez
Michael, let me ask you, who do you think picks up the mantle here? Is it going to be an America first member of Congress?
- [50:24]
Michael Dubke
Well, I mean, here's the, here's the thing. So Marco Rubio would have been an obvious choice, but he's Secretary of State. The thing that we're not talking about is that Lindsey Graham put in the time. All of those weekends golfing with the president, all of those phone calls. The president loves to talk to people on the phone. Those conversations take time. Lindsey Graham actually put in the time. Not a lot of these senators are actually trying to govern on other issues or flying back to their states. And so I don't exactly know who that's going to be. There's a couple of, there's a couple of senators that could, you know, fill that role, but they, but they don't necessarily, they have other issues that they want to be, you know, prominent.
- [51:08]
Gabe Gutierrez
Josh, what does the loss of Senator Graham mean for Democrats when it comes to Ukraine? You know, there was, you know, Senator Graham was big on, you know, getting bipartisan report support to help Ukraine. Could this be a loss for Democrats in that sense? Obviously, they disagree with him on a lot of other things. But what about the war in Ukraine?
- [51:27]
Josh Orton
Yeah, it's possible, but I think that actually in some ways, Lindsey Graham and Trump brought up the worst instinct of each other. I mean, Lindsey Graham really represented this change in the Republican Party from sort of a values base. You know, he was friends with Lieberman and McCain and he really and hey, you know, Trump offended him in 2016 and he threw all of that out. And what did he get in exchange? He actually pulled Trump's most warmongering, you know, hawkish instincts out of him that I think are going to turn out to be one of Trump's biggest political liabilities in the midterms. And so I do think that this could be a problem with Ukraine. I think the fact that Polinsky's here is a good sign that he had a productive meeting. But I actually think the longest legacy from Graham is going to be how he convinced helped convince Trump to take on a war that no other president would wage.
- [52:17]
Gabe Gutierrez
Well, I think we have just a few more seconds. Marianna, really quickly. John Thune went on Fox yesterday quash hopes of getting rid of the filibuster. Do you think, do you think the relationship between Trump and Thune gets any better before the August recess?
- [52:31]
Mariana Sotomayor
I don't think so, actually, no. They do speak to each other. I know it's a cordial relationship, but it's not a very tight one, largely because Thune got elected without Trump's help. So a lot of senators continue to
- [52:44]
Gabe Gutierrez
be behind Thune and Marianna, Michael, Josh, thank you. Thank you all so much. I wish we had a little bit more time, but we are running out of the clock is ticking. We are back tomorrow, though, for more MEET THE PRESS now. Thank you for watching. There's more ahead right now on NBC News now.
- [53:11]
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