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Meet the Press
Meet the Press NOW — July 31
00:49:56
Cyberattacks targeting municipal water systems in multiple states spark fears of Iranian hacking. NBC News artificial intelligence reporter Jared Perlo reports on a new instance of AI models going “rogue.” Former adviser on Arab-Israeli negotiations Aaron David Miller joins Meet the Press NOW to discuss the latest Gaza deal that would disarm Hamas.
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Kelly O'Donnell
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Craig Melvin
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Donald Trump
Cheers.
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Dan DeLu
Cheers.
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Craig Melvin
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Kelly O'Donnell
Welcome to Meet the Press now. I'm Kelly o' Donnell in Washington as the impact of the US War with Iran appears to be hitting even closer to home and expanding into another domain, cyber. Government officials are investigating a cyber attack targeting municipal water systems in at least seven states, prompting the FBI and the EPA to warn utility companies nationwide that hackers are trying to disrupt critical water infrastructure. That warning coming after hackers targeted dozens of water systems across Minnesota. A senior law enforcement official says the incident bears the hallmarks of Iranian meddling. But today, during his cabinet meeting at Camp David, the president denied it was Iran and blamed Minnesota and the state's Democratic governor, Tim Walz was for the cyber attack.
- [02:03]
Donald Trump
We heard in Minnesota there was a cyber attack. And they blame it on Iran? I don't think so. I think I blame it on Minnesota because they're grossly incompetent. There was a cyber attack of 30 water plants and I would blame it on Minnesota and the governor, the corrupt governor of Minnesota, they like to say, oh, is Iran. Iran should be so lucky. Iran's got bigger problems than worrying about Minnesota. No, I think Minnesota is behind it, you know, is behind it. Minnesota because they're grossly incompetent. I think the governor is behind it. I don't think there was an Iranian cyber attack. I think that Minnesota ought to get its act together. It's one of the worst run states.
- [02:49]
Kelly O'Donnell
Governor Walz is responding to the president's allegations, writing in a post on social media, Trump knows exactly who is responsible for this attack and knows that other states were hit, too. And he goes on to blame the administration's Doge cuts for leaving the US Exposed to cyberattacks, despite the President's insistence that Iran was not involved in that cyber attack. It comes at a tense and uncertain moment in the US War with Iran. The President has repeatedly threatened to bomb Iran's civilian infrastructure, including its water desalinization plants. And with a war now in its sixth month, the President acknowledging today that Iran still maintains some of its military capabilities.
- [03:32]
Donald Trump
They're being decimated. They have no navy, they have no air force, they have no antiaircraft. Doesn't mean they don't have any capability. They have some, but very little. We just want to win. We don't want to have them. It's very simple. They cannot have a nuclear weapon. We'll be hitting them. We'll be hitting them very hard. And you know, at some point they're going to say, we just can't take it anymore.
- [03:55]
Reporter/Interviewer
All along, Mr. President, you said they do have some capabilities left. Should Americans be prepared for these back and forth attacks to continue until Iran simply isn't able of striking back?
- [04:05]
Donald Trump
They'll get weaker. They'll get a little stronger maybe now, but they'll get weaker and then they peter out. Yeah, sure, I think so. I mean, it would be foolish to say no. You know, you always have to keep your guard up.
- [04:18]
Kelly O'Donnell
And joining me now is our team of reporters, NBC News chief White House correspondent Garrett Hake, NBC News national and law enforcement, and intelligence correspondent Tom Winter, and NBC News intelligence reporter Dan delou. So we've got the big guns here to talk about all of this. Garrett, let me start with you. What do you make of the President in terms of how he uses his rhetoric and his time to blame the Minnesota governor and not a foreign adversary for this hack on the municipal water systems? And do you think this is about a reluctance to name Iran since he's the one who engaged Iran in the first place?
- [04:54]
Garrett Haake
I think that very well may be part of the calculus, Kelly. Although it's impossible to know in this moment, I think the most generous way to interpret the President's comments is the old saw about taking him seriously, but not literally. As my colleagues will no doubt shortly point out, these vulnerabilities in water systems have been well known for some time. And what I think you may see from the President here is some frustration that Minnesota and these other states were still vulnerable to them. But there's no universe in which Minnesota or Tim Waltz hacked himself or other perhaps neighboring states that's not even like Big Ten football kind of treachery to do something like that. So somebody's responsible for this. And when I asked the White House that question directly, who does the White House believe is responsible? I get commentary back about Tim Walz. They're not going to answer that question. And it may be because they don't want to create essentially an acknowledgement of another front in this war and have another diplomatic problem that needs to be solved given the total lack of diplomatic progress here in month six.
- [05:56]
Kelly O'Donnell
Clearly that is a decision they've made and you've been pushing them on it. And still we're not moving beyond the walls excuse. So we did hear something today that the acknowledge the capabilities that Iran has in terms of their military capacity. That stands out because at other times he said they've been decimated, they've been obliterated. How does that sort of change in tone, at least in this moment, play into some of the decisions he's making and how he's approaching this moment now six months in?
- [06:25]
Garrett Haake
I thought watching this Cabinet meeting today across the duration was really telling. And you saw kind of a multifaceted acknowledgment from the president that this war is not ending anytime soon. He conceded that Iran does still continue to have this military ability to keep striking. He suggested in the clip that you played that that ability might still get stronger. At one point he said that they'll eventually just give up and come to the table. There's been no evidence to support that across these five months and change that this war has been going on. And when he was asked about a negotiated settlement, said he doesn't trust them and that everything they say is making him angry. And so I think we saw a little bit of kind of low key frustration from the President. But I took that as a message to voters, to Republicans running for office in this fall, that this is a midterm issue, a political issue is just not going away anytime soon. And the president seems to be buckling
- [07:16]
Kelly O'Donnell
down for that I get used to it approach. Also in just a sense of watching how the president has often sort of used talks with Iran as a pumping the brakes moment. If there are attacks going on, he would say we're talking, it's positive. What is the status of talks now since you explained that he's not really trusting the other side of the table?
- [07:37]
Garrett Haake
Yeah. Also difficult to know. Steve Witkoff, one of those negotiators, was in the room today. Although he didn't speak, there's been some reporting around this and this open question that's existed for a long time about who exactly in Iran is calling the shots and whether the people were talking to are effectively the decision makers. Earlier in the week, the president was asked about this, and he kind of alluded to the idea that there are different groups in Iran who may be responsible for some of the attacks that are still going on. If that's the case, and if the people the United States is talking to aren't able to speak for anyone, it really makes the question of ongoing talks with US Officials kind of moot. You know, if you can't, if the people you're talking to can't reliably speak for the other side, it just makes getting to a negotiated solution all the more challenging.
- [08:25]
Kelly O'Donnell
Garrett, thank you for bringing us up to date on what I know is a busy afternoon for you. Let me turn now to Tom. And Tom, you have been talking with us internally. We've been having these conversations about what this all means and so help our viewers understand what do we know about this, this hack?
- [08:42]
Tom Winter
Right. Kelly? So this involves programmable logic controllers, which, just put simply, are the types of devices. They get information or a command from a computer and then translate that over to actually changing the voltage or signaling a pump or a valve or something at one of these water or wastewater systems to turn on, to turn off, to close, open, increase in strength when we talk about a pump or decrease. And these systems are critical because, as you can imagine, think of any major city or even a small municipality, you've got to get water from point A to point B, there's changes in elevation. And so these systems all work in concert with each other to be able to deliver water or to be able to get wastewater out of your home or out of your office and into a treatment plant. What happens here is that when somebody is able to hack One of these PLCs, as it's called, and it's a device that's only about this big by this big, when somebody is able to hack into one of those, they can then start to say, okay, a pump was running at 100%. Now we're going to drop it to zero, or we're going to open up a valve or we're going to change something in it. And what we're told here is the Cyber Group that appears to be affiliated with Iran was able to go in and change the username and password for these PLCs, redirect those PLCs to a different IP address, allowing this Cyber Group to take over and According to a memo released by Wisconsin and published by our colleague Ben goggin@nbcnews.com who's written extensively on this this afternoon, apparently there were warning, warning alarms that went off in Minnesota in some of these water plants and law enforcement had to be called as pressure started to drop. So this could have been quite serious in this instance, Kelly.
- [10:27]
Kelly O'Donnell
And when you describe the identifying the IP address and the changing of information, that's, I'm presuming, part of how officials know or believe they know Iran is involved. Is that fair?
- [10:39]
Tom Winter
Well, it's a great question. So back in early April, cisa, which is kind of the cyber authority for the United States, they put out a note specific to Iran that Iranian groups would try to look at this specific plc. You're looking at the logo for cisa, of course, but this is a group that was aware of this potential threat, that Iran had tried to do it before and now could try to do it again, particularly in light of the U.S. s conflict with Iran. So they were definitely keyed into the fact that these Iranian backed groups were looking at these specific controllers which are in critical infrastructure, including, as the alert said, in wastewater and water treatment plants. So that's another component of this as well.
- [11:22]
Kelly O'Donnell
So they've shown their capability. But just for our audience to understand, are there any signs that that water systems have actually been breached or contaminated?
- [11:32]
Tom Winter
Yeah. So, you know, one water hack in the past which was actually not, has not been attributed to anybody at this point. They were able to adjust the chemicals that were used to treat that drinking water. We haven't seen any instances of that here really. The biggest problem is that they would drop the pressure potentially so low that other water could seep through pipes. That's actually a thing. And that water might not be treated. So that's why you get a boil water advisory. Well, whenever you get a boil water advisory, obviously, obviously health officials say you should heed that warning. We're not seeing anything that goes beyond that. We're not seeing any sort of widespread polluting or contamination of the water supply in Minnesota. And we have no reports from any other states. We're still trying to figure out those six other states, Kelly, but we have no other reports that there's anything been significant along those lines. But obviously, given the fact the President is certainly not turned off, as you heard from Garrett, the possibility of further military action, this is obviously something we're going to be following.
- [12:28]
Kelly O'Donnell
Thank you so much for that, Tom. Let me turn to Dan now. And Dan, you have been looking at how do we know where this comes from and what are officials seeing that suggests Iran?
- [12:39]
Dan DeLu
Well, I think Tom just explained it very well, which is there are these ways to tell who's behind it, and then it's very much their playbook. This is not really new.
- [12:48]
Kelly O'Donnell
This is a skill set they have.
- [12:49]
Dan DeLu
That's right. Iran is one of the major cyber threats to the U.S. u.S. Intelligence agencies have said that openly and that they're getting more aggressive. And there were these warnings, public warnings, just a week ago, saying, look out, Iran might try to do this. And keep in mind that the US And Israel have bombed Iran, including bridges, other infrastructure. So for Iran, they're trying to find ways to escalate, to retaliate, to send a signal to the White House that if you continue this war, we have ways to inflict costs on you. So I think this is very much what expected and what was warned about as soon as that this war started in February.
- [13:31]
Kelly O'Donnell
That brings up the idea of if you have, through your reporting, been able to get that insight from officials. One would think that the President's brief on what's happening in the world today would have included discussion of Iran, and yet he did not say it publicly and he is talking about Minnesota. Are you confident that there is a consensus among the people you're talking with who would get that information of the President?
- [13:55]
Dan DeLu
I think so. I think the information, I think intelligence does reach the President. That's what I've been told and other people have been told. How he chooses to portray it as
- [14:03]
Kelly O'Donnell
you and your consumer of it is another map.
- [14:06]
Dan DeLu
It is this incident, this episodeand keep in mind, it's not just Minnesota. Right. It's other states. And we're waiting to hear more. You know, this is another example for ordinary Americans about the war, that the war is not over. It's now six months in, and it is potentially bringing more costs, not just at the gas pump or at the market, but now possibly complicating water systems. I should add one more thing, which is that China has demonstrated it can penetrate all of our country's infrastructure. And previous administrations have warned about this. And so they have sent a message to the US if there's a conflict with China in the US they could hold at risk our infrastructure.
- [14:46]
Kelly O'Donnell
They're all stars in the realm of cyber hacking and so forth. When you talk about China's involvement in terms of their capability, perhaps Iran in this case, all of this warning that is known to the intelligence community. And yet at the same time, we know there have been deep cuts in the intelligence community under the new director of National Intelligence as an acting Bill Pulte, there had been the Doge cuts. How do you think there might be an interface between the capabilities to track this and where we are right now?
- [15:18]
Dan DeLu
That's a really good question. And I think a lot of former officials and people in private industry will say they're concerned because a lot of experienced civil servants and experts left the room. They retired early. They were fired, especially at the cybersecurity agency that Tom was talking about. They're responsible for domestic cybersecurity. They've had hundreds of people fire to laid off. So it raises a question, are we lacking manpower at the moment?
- [15:44]
Kelly O'Donnell
Well, to both you, Dan, and Tom, thank you so much for your expertise on this and your deep reporting. I know you've been working it hard. And we are now going to follow some breaking news that is coming out of California, out of San Diego, where emergency crews are responding to what a Marine Corps spokesperson is calling an aircraft mishap involving an F35 jet near Miramar Air Base in San Diego. You can see what appears to be emergency crews spraying down the crashed fighter jet at the site there. And the Marine Corps says the pilot, who was the only crew member on board, ejected and was transported to a local medical facility and is in stable condition. And coming up, Cabinet confirmation in peril. President Trump defends the controversial payout fund that is threatening to derail his pick for attorney general as two Republican senators defend their opposition. Plus another case of AI agents on the loose as Anthropic discloses that one of its models broke containment and hacked into systems in at least three companies. They're on the run. And you're watching Meet the Press now.
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- [18:06]
Willie Geist
Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with the hilarious Ken Jong to talk through a career of unforgettable roles, from the Hangover movies to the cult favorite show Community and his latest in the Netflix cultural sensation K Pop Demon Hunters. You can find our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts.
- [18:36]
Kelly O'Donnell
And welcome back. Today the President is reversing his threat to pull Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche's nomination for the full time position as Attorney General, saying he wants Blanche confirmed immediately. The president also doubling down on his defense of the so called anti weaponization fund at the center of Republican opposition to Blanch, writing on social media, quote, I will always feel these victims of government abuse should be paid back for what they were forced to endure. Their lives have been ruined. Today the President told reporters that the fund has been scrapped while suggesting he might want it revived.
- [19:15]
Donald Trump
This fund was not for me. This fund was for those people that have been weaponized, that have been abused. Now I was abused. They attacked my house, Mar a Lago where I live and I was, you know, big damages should have been given to me. I don't want anything. I'm not talking about myself. Todd Blanche is a very, very good man and he shouldn't be in the middle of this. He should get approved because you will never get anybody like him.
- [19:41]
Reporter/Interviewer
Do you agree with the acting attorney General that the anti weaponization fund is dead and why not just put that in writing?
- [19:46]
Donald Trump
It's dead, but you know, I wish it weren't, to be honest with you.
- [19:53]
Kelly O'Donnell
Republican Senators John Cornyn and Thom Tillis have refused to advance Blanche's nomination out of the Judiciary Committee over concerns about that fund, which was part of a deal Blanche cut to settle the president's lawsuit against the IRS. The settlement included the $1.8 billion so called anti weaponization fund that would potentially compensate Trump allies, including January 6th partition participants, others also another issue is that the Trump family and businesses were given immunity to certain IRS audits and that's a concern for the senators as well. Cornyn And Tillis have made it clear that they and other Republicans are willing to dig in on their demands. They want the DOJ to commit in writing to change the settlement and not move forward with the fund. And joining me now is NBC News senior justice reporter Ryan Reilly. And you and I have been covering this a lot over the last few days, and the president did not do much to erase concerns about the need for putting it in writing if he is still talking about this fund, even though Todd Blanche has said under oath that it will not go forward. So based on what we're getting a sense of today, has there been any
- [21:03]
Ryan Reilly
movement here in just the last few minutes? Actually, we've learned that the decision in Florida was actually appealed. The judge had found that this was a settlement that was based in bad faith, that this was basically an abuse of the court. And now the private litigants, meaning the individual representing Donald Trump's family, have filed a notice of appeal in that case. So this case is goingyou know, that litigation is going to continue on. They didn't agree with the judge's ruling in that instance. But, you know, all of this just speaks, I think, to Donald Trump's really core interest in potentially getting that essentially immunity in the IRS deal, as well as his interest, as we just saw there in that clip, in the broader reimbursements for members or for, you know, individuals who he claims were targeted by the Trump administration, including those January 6th rioters who who really want these payouts from the administration because they believe, in their view, that they were wronged by the government and believe that those prosecutions shouldn't have gone forward. There are other ways that the Justice Department could potentially give settlements without this separate sort of fund. So I think that's going to be sort of the ongoing concern for people on the Hill and particularly those two Republican members of Congress who don't have to worry about that next election. They're sort of members of that YOLO caucus, so have a little bit more independence than they typically would.
- [22:25]
Kelly O'Donnell
And because Todd Blanche is currently the acting, he's effectively doing the job of attorney general. And while his confirmation process appears to be on ice at the moment, what is the status for our viewers to understand if if this just doesn't go anywhere? Is Todd Blanche still in the job?
- [22:42]
Ryan Reilly
He could extend for a while. And it's a there's a little bit of, I think, combating legal views on this. But, you know, because he's the nominee right now, he can stay in that position even if he wasn't he could stay in for an additional over you days or so, but he could then be renominated, theoretically. And also he's in the deputy attorney general position. So effectively, if there's no one holding that attorney general position, he can still sort of run the Justice Department. There are some limits potentially on particular powers. But, you know, for the foreseeable future, I do think we're, we're going to see Todd Blanch in that role unless there's some sort of massive change. And Donald Trump has originally had suggested earlier this week that perhaps he'll just wait out until January. But you know, all of that is sort of up in the air depending on how the Senate goes and whether or not, you know, he might have more support then. So I think there are a lot of unknowns at this moment.
- [23:33]
Kelly O'Donnell
So Todd Blanche is probably just waiting to see what's going to happen next over the weekend while he'll still have to go to work on Monday. Ryan, thank you so much. And joining me now is our panel on set with us, Francesca Chambers, White House correspondent for USA Today, Herbie Ziskin, White House principal deputy communications director during the Biden administration, and Rob Louey, president and executive editor of the Daily Signal. So, Francesca, let me start with you. The president said the fund is dead and yet is pining for the fund. Where do you think that leaves his leadership on this issue and the kind of difficult position he has put Todd Blanche in?
- [24:11]
Francesca Chambers
Yeah, not a fun weekend for Todd Blanche, as you were indicating there. I mean, the president is in a standoff right now with these two GOP senators and as Cornyn was suggesting, potentially more he doesn't even know about over not just this weaponization fund, but other issues involving Todd Blanc, the independence of the Department of Justice. And so it's a clear question right now, Kelly, of who's going to back down first. Is it going to be these senators or is it going to be President Donald Trump who has said first he might yank it, but then he says you should vote on it right away. And the Senate's due to leave next Friday.
- [24:47]
Kelly O'Donnell
There isn't much time to act on this. And Rob, when you look at the factors here, how do you think the president's management of this saying let's hold off till January? Boy, there are a lot of question marks with that with the midterm elections or now let's do it? Does he have any sway here with these two senators who are not on the ballot yet? Is this just a standoff?
- [25:07]
Willie Geist
That's true. They don't have a whole lot to lose. Right. Because Cornyn is going to be exiting as will Thom Tillis and perhaps a few others that are not necessarily on board. And I think if the Senate has one more week now, there is a group of senators who want to cancel the August recess and stay. I don't necessarily know if they're going to get their way. I personally hope they do. I hope, hope the Senate does stay in town. But there's a lot of things to get across the finish line, Kelly. I mean, you have the Save America act, the third reconciliation bill. You have other pieces of legislation that are awaiting action. And now all of a sudden we're talking about the anti weaponization fund and Todd Blanche, not exactly the message that you might want if you're a Republican heading into an election that's probably going to be decided on bread and butter issues.
- [25:45]
Kelly O'Donnell
And much of the tension you just outlined is Republican on Republican.
- [25:49]
Aaron David Miller
That's true.
- [25:49]
Kelly O'Donnell
That's not helpful, is it?
- [25:50]
Willie Geist
Well, I mean, I think it shows that there is some, some diplomacy that needs to take place between the White House and the Senate to get some of these things across the finish line. But I think the most important thing that Republicans can do right now is talk about the economy, talk about accountability, talk about affordability. Those were themes that you heard at President Trump's Cabinet meeting today. And so I'd like to see more of that going forward.
- [26:11]
Kelly O'Donnell
I think Democrats want to talk about some of those issues, too. Senator Tillis talked today about not running for reelection and how that is freeing. Is this a consequence of, of really Trump's own making by going after these senators and not supporting them, that now they are liberated?
- [26:29]
Herbie Ziskin
Absolutely. They're liberated to say what we all know is true, which is that this is a bigger story than the slush fund. It's a bigger story than rewarding your political allies with taxpayer money. Every single one of the president's judicial nominees this term has refused to say January 6th was an attack, has refused to say that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. Todd Blanche has refused to say that Joe Biden was on the 2020 election. Kevin Warshay, Clinton, you can't get the nomination, you can't get the appointment unless you peddle the president's big lie all these years later. And you're absolutely right. We're not talking about affordability. We're not talking about prices. We're talking about the 2020 election. And that's not accruing to Republicans benefit. As we head into November, let's dip
- [27:08]
Kelly O'Donnell
into some of what the president said during his Cabinet meeting at Camp David today. Unusual setting for a Cabinet meeting. And then we'll pick it up for from there.
- [27:15]
Donald Trump
Now, he should be approved forthwith. I mean, you're not going to get a person like that. Everybody agrees to it. Don't forget, Senator Cornyn thought he was phenomenal until he lost. And he thought this was the most incredible person. Then when he lost, now he lost because of me. I endorsed somebody else.
- [27:37]
Kelly O'Donnell
Well, that's sort of an accurate description of what happened. The president also said he kind of understood why Cornyn felt this way and that he might do it himself. Do you get a sense that Democrats have something to work with here, as they are on the campaign trail, to say they can't even organize this particular issue? It's still a concern about how Trump may want to be in control of the Department of Justice. Is that an issue or is that just too inside Washington for most voters right now?
- [28:05]
Francesca Chambers
Well, I think that you've heard Jon Ossoff make some version of this argument when he has been campaigning in Georgia, which is a key battleground state and a key midterm state, right? Absolutely. A state that Republicans want to try and pick up that Senate seat in. But when you talk about whether it's Cornyn or Tillis or some of these other people, they are the ones who are taking the heat publicly. But we also know that there are some other moderate Republicans who have said that they haven't decided yet what they're going to do.
- [28:33]
Kelly O'Donnell
Lisa McAllister is behind the middle of
- [28:34]
Francesca Chambers
the is believed to be on the fence. Susan Collins is believed to be on the fence. So it's not as if it's Jeff, those two Republicans and that even if you put this on the floor and then J.D. vance, you know, tried to cast maybe a deciding vote that this would necessarily pass. There are absolutely other Republicans who may be a no on Blanche.
- [28:53]
Kelly O'Donnell
And that is something that I think the president's not even considering because the focus has been on these two senators who just happen to be on the key committee and they are willing to take this heat publicly. But others may also, and certainly Democrats do. Herbie, you know that the Democrats, Democrats want to shine a light on the fact they believe someone who served as the president's personal lawyer and all of the issues with the Epstein survivor community and the concerns they've raised that this is an issue they would be willing to talk about. Like, does this put, in your view, some impediment in Susan Collins way for A tight race. She's the Republican, of course, Troy Jackson running against her in Maine.
- [29:29]
Herbie Ziskin
Sure, if you're Susan Collins, if you're Dan Sullivan, if you're, if you're Ken Paxton, you want to Republicans focused on the bread and butter issues, the things that Donald Trump ran on in 2020. You don't want him talking about the 2020 election. Sorry, he ran on those in 2024. You don't want to talk about the 2020 election. You don't want him talking about slush funds. And so you're absolutely right. Cornyon and Tillis are helping the more moderate Republicans that are running and on the ballot in this, in this cycle.
- [29:53]
Kelly O'Donnell
We've spent some time in this show today talking about this concern about what could Iran or some foreign actor do to penetrate water systems in the United States. Is that dangerous for President Trump in the midterms because he chose to engage in this war and this might be another domestic consequence?
- [30:10]
Craig Melvin
Sure.
- [30:11]
Willie Geist
I mean, I think that the president needs to wrap up action in Iran as quickly as possible. This is dragged on to the point where I think it's starting to reflect in the polls very negatively, not only on the president's approval, but also Republicans more broadly. And yes, there could be threats not only from Iran, but other foreign actors from China. Right. All the time. And so those are things that probably are not necessarily top of mind for a lot of voters. But if it were to happen, definitely, I think they'd blame the person in the White House.
- [30:39]
Kelly O'Donnell
And Herbie, do you get a sense that the president is not taking accountability on the impact of this Iran war? I mean, we know about gas prices. He does talk about that, insists they will become better and that the price will drop. But if there is this cyber threat caused by the war, is that something he has to acknowledge picking on Tim Walls is a comfortable place for him. But is that going to work?
- [31:02]
Herbie Ziskin
It's not going to work because the biggest water system right now that's bedeviling the President is the Strait of Hormuz and the red Sea. And 30% of the world's gas shipments and oil shipments come through the Strait of Hormuz. And he doesn't have the cards. He started a war that he shouldn't have started. He didn't read page two of the memo that mentions the Strait of Hormuz. And now the president doesn't have leverage. He hasn't established deterrence. And it's a substantive issue for the United States. It's also a big political issue for him.
- [31:26]
Kelly O'Donnell
I didn't expect you'd make me chuckle about that. It's the first time I've laughed when the word straight of Hormuzz has come into play. When we think about how the president used today's Cabinet meeting, is this a way to try to show the country that they've buckled down, they're worried about these issues. They're doing the things you want to see. What I'm hearing from you, Rob, is he's not doing enough of the things you want to see.
- [31:48]
Craig Melvin
Well, absolutely.
- [31:50]
Willie Geist
The Republicans need to be focused on the legislative accomplishments that they've had. And there have been few of them. But one of the biggest is the working family tax cuts or the one big beautiful bill. Right. Get on the campaign trail and start talking to the American people about the provisions that were in that legislation that are going to benefit them and their bottom line. Americans are ultimately going to vote based on how they feel their personal finances are. And if they don't feel that they're improving, I don't necessarily think that that benefits the incumbent party.
- [32:15]
Kelly O'Donnell
Thank you all for being at the table with us today. Really appreciate it. Good to see you all in person as well. And a programming note, make sure that you are watching us on Tuesday for special midterm primary coverage. It's shaping up to be a major night for both parties ahead of November. Kristen Halle, Steve Kornacki, they will kick it off Tuesday night at 9:00pm Eastern right here on NBC. And up next, big deals and even bigger doubts. President Trump announces what he says is an agreement for Hamas to be disarmed and Israel's withdrawal from Gaza, although many details, hurdles and questions about that pact remain. You're watching MEET THE PRESS now. And we're glad you're back with us. President Trump is touting a new Gaza deal to disarm Hamas, but key questions remain over whether the two main parties, Hamas and Israel, are ready to carry out that agreement. The 15 point plan released by President Trump create his so called created board of Peace would see Hamas decommissioned and hand over its heavy weapons from various storage sites in Gaza. Now, that process would be carried out within 14 days of the parties agreeing to the deal. Hamas saying today that it's up to Israel to take the first step. And the agreement is, quote, conditional upon a complete cessation of all forms of aggression and withdrawal from Gaza by Israel. An Israeli diplomatic source telling NBC News that there will be no withdrawal until Hamas disarms. The president dodged questions today about that disconnect, instead touting the spirit of the agreement.
- [33:56]
Reporter/Interviewer
Do you have assurances from Israel that they are on board with this deal? And what comes first? Does Israel pull back and then Hamas disarms or does Hamas need to disarm and then Israel leaves Gaza?
- [34:07]
Donald Trump
An understanding with Israel. Israel is very happy about it. Israel helped us. And they've been very good. They've been very good about it. Most people said that would be a deal that would be undoable. That shows you how much success we're having with Iran. Because if you go four months ago, five months ago, a deal like that would have been impossible.
- [34:28]
Kelly O'Donnell
And joining me now is former State Department Middle east peace negotiator Aaron David Miller. He's now senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. So I hope you can give us sort of the reality check of where this stands, given the gap and what we're hearing from Hamas and Israel. Is this actually a deal? Is this implementable in some form?
- [34:50]
Aaron David Miller
I mean, I don't see it. And thanks for having me. Look, if you had real leaders
- [34:56]
Jared Perlow
in
- [34:57]
Aaron David Miller
Israel, Hamas making decisions that were in the best interest of the Palestinian people and leadership in Washington prepared to spend a lot of time on this, I think you could, you might be able to see some results. But the reality is we don't have those leaders. I mean, this, this 15 point plan, and by the way, this was, this plan was laid out by the Board of Peace mediator Nicholas Madanov in May. Some revisions were made. I think in large part timing has a lot to do with effect. And again, I voted and worked for Republicans and Democrats. You can consider this a partisan comment if you want, but I think this, this, this plan was aired at a moment when this president needs a distraction and a win. But the problem is Gaza is not that place to go. And I'm concerned. Just like the memorandum of understanding, which has turned into a memorandum of misunderstanding, this particular plan is better suited to a galaxy far, far away, rather than seriously, rather than to the realities back here on planet Earth, particularly the realities in the Israeli Palestinian arena right now.
- [36:14]
Kelly O'Donnell
And certainly the Trump administration uses moments to announce things when they do want to change the narrative. Whether there's underlying a sense of changing the direction of things or getting a win, that is part of the playbook. And if there is something in this that you see that is actually new, is there a mechanism, is there an element from what they have now unveiled that you think could lead to Hamas actually disarming?
- [36:43]
Aaron David Miller
I think it's a, it's a great question. I think you'd really need to incentivize Hamas to disarm. And that links and gets you to hop, skip and a jump to the very tricky problem of Israeli withdrawal. I cannot see and remember. October 27, Benjamin Netanyahu will face the most important election of his life, an election that could well speak to his personal freedom. He's on trial for bribery, fraud and breach of trust in a Jerusalem district court, three years in running. If he doesn't maintain himself in power, he could be convicted or alternately, cut a plea deal that would end his political career. So Trump has enormous leverage over the Israeli prime minister, probably more leverage than any American President has ever had over any Israeli prime minister. The question for the President is governing is about choosing. Gaza is not his major problem on foreign policy. His problem is he's gotten himself into a war that is extremely difficult to get out of. That is the core decision. And I suspect, frankly, that would, that is the most important priority, not Gaza.
- [37:53]
Kelly O'Donnell
And there have been tensions that have been more visible than we typically see between the President and the Prime Minister. Let me take a moment to just play for you part of what the President said today, and this is what he says would happen to Hamas weapons.
- [38:06]
Willie Geist
As Hamas disarms as part of this plan, who do you see as taking possession of those weapons that they have?
- [38:11]
Kelly O'Donnell
Does that go to the new government?
- [38:13]
Donald Trump
That's going to be the Board of Peace. Mostly it's going to be run by the board. This Board of Peace has been an amazing, it's led by some amazing people. Board of Peace.
- [38:23]
Kelly O'Donnell
So the Board of Peace, if people don't recall, is a newly created group that the President put together of various leaders, not from democracies in many instances. And there's no infrastructure here. Is this even realistic for them to be taking receipt of weapons and dealing with that? Is that even practical or possible?
- [38:46]
Aaron David Miller
No. A thousand times no. Look, the most successful process of demilitarization occurred in 1998 in the wake of the Good Friday agreement where the IRA and the Protestant paramilitaries agreed. It took seven, seven years to demilitarize and decommission those weapons. Seven years. It was done under international auspices. A very talented Canadian general. They gave the IRA and the, and the Protestant paramilitaries a role, a future role in governance as part of a new political system. None of that is on offer here, frankly. Again, I hate to say it again. I've worked for Republicans and Democrats. I voted for Democrats, Democrats and Republicans. This is just not serious. And the President is going to deploy his son in law and his best friend as he's deployed them in Russia, Ukraine and the U. S. Iranian negotiations. And now in the Israeli Palestinian issue, I just don't think it's serious and frankly, it's too deadly not to be. And that's, that's a real concern. But again, I return to the reality of governing is about choosing as an American, the core issue other than repairing our own broken house at home. And the affordability issue that affects so many Americans is trying to find a way to extricate ourselves from this war of choice in which a president has overestimated American military capabilities, however formidable they are, and underestimated drastically the capabilities of a brutal, repressive, authoritarian regime in Tehran that is not going to let go of its new ATM machine, the Straits of Hormuz.
- [40:28]
Kelly O'Donnell
Aaron David Miller, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of the region and your understanding of the complexities of this. We really appreciate your time.
- [40:36]
Aaron David Miller
Great questions and thanks for having me.
- [40:38]
Kelly O'Donnell
Thank you so much. We're now turning to a chaotic scene in Europe where at least 50,000 migrants rush to enter a Spanish territory from Morocco. According to Spain's Interior Ministry Ministry, as you can see here, video captured migrants arriving by land and sea. Some were seen breaking through a gate running into this Spanish city. Officials say dozens of people were killed in the scramble to enter the region, which is called Ceuta and is located in North Africa, but is controlled by Spain and it has been for centuries here in the United States. The president has said he sees parallel parallels between what's happening there and the circumstances that have or could occur again at the US Southern border.
- [41:23]
Donald Trump
I watched the catastrophe that took place. It was a, it looks like an invasion of a country by hundreds of thousands of people. And that same thing is going to happen to us if the Republicans don't get elected. Except worse, much bigger, much easier to get into, despite the fact that we have built thousands of miles of wall, which I said we were going to do, but we didn't have that.
- [41:51]
Kelly O'Donnell
Spanish officials say many of the migrants have returned to Morocco, but the situation is raising alarms for other European countries. Spain's prime minister traveled to Ceuta to assess the situation, blaming trafficking gangs for what's going on there, there. And after the break, the expanding scope of AI agents gone rogue as a second artificial intelligence giant discloses that some of its models also escaped their testing environment to hack into other companies. Stay with us. You're watching Meet THE Press now. Welcome back. For the second time in as many weeks, an AI company is acknowledging that one of its models escaped its testing environment. Anthropic disclosed late yesterday that its AI model, Claude, hacked into the systems of three different companies during testing. Anthropic, blaming the breach on what they call a configuration error that gave Claude access to the Internet. The disclosure comes just days after OpenAI, the company behind Chat GPT, acknowledged a similar incident involving its agents hacking into another AI firmed called Hugging Face. Jared Perlow joins me once again. We're becoming fast friends. Jared, you cover AI for NBC News and will help us to understand this. So two breaches in two weeks. How concerned should we be?
- [43:21]
Jared Perlow
Well, great to see you again, I guess, for better or for worse. So I think we should be pretty concerned about this. As the CEO of Hugging Face, which is one of the companies that got hacked, said, we're now in the era of autonomous cyber attacks, so this is a new event. We haven't seen AI agents, AI systems conduct these sorts of attacks, going rogue in some cases before. So with Anthropic disclosing their own incidents yesterday, this took on a new level of severity. So before we just had OpenAI, which is one of America's largest AI companies, then Anthropic joined the hub of yesterday. So again, I do want to emphasize we haven't seen anything like this before in terms of AI showing its true capabilities. But I do also want to add the caveat that Anthropic had to go back to April in reviewing its transcripts of these recent cyber attacks. So there's definitely some aspect here of Anthropic not wanting to get left out of, you know, all the hype and the, frankly, we're talking about it, so the media attention as well. But I do think it represents that we're in a new age of AI capability.
- [44:23]
Kelly O'Donnell
So interesting. And we'll someday we'll go back and mark what you just said as the first time we learned about this. Are there similarities or differences that we should know about this? This is terrain that is unfamiliar to me between the Open Air and the Anthropic breaches. Is there something that you can help us explain? Are these identical kinds of situations or key differences?
- [44:44]
Jared Perlow
Yes, so there are a couple key differences, although they are on the whole pretty similar. So first again is timing. So. So OpenAI disclosed its events happened in mid July, but Anthropic actually went back after this open air episode and they said, I wonder if anything similar has happened to us. They identified the first events happened back in April. So the timing difference of April and July, that's one of the key differences there, but also the mechanism. So what happened with OpenAI is it seems more nefarious, potentially malicious if. I don't know if we want to go that far. But. But OpenAI's model basically picked the lock on a door. A door was closed. It wasn't supposed to be able to go through it. It picked the lock and then gained entry to places it wasn't supposed to. That's not what happened with Anthropic. With Anthropic, basically, a door was left open for this model, for the system. The researchers didn't necessarily want the model to take advantage of that open gateway to the open Internet, but the door was left open. It was a lot easier for Anthropic's model to walk through that, that entryway. So I think that's the key difference there is where open model basically discovered a new vulnerability, gained access to systems. It absolutely was not supposed to have access to.
- [45:54]
Kelly O'Donnell
Anthropics didn't I actually understood that. So thank you. Very briefly, is there a way to know that these companies are actually telling us an accurate portrayal of what's going on? Is there any oversight to know what's going on?
- [46:09]
Garrett Haake
Not really.
- [46:09]
Jared Perlow
And I think that's one of the biggest takeaways here, is we're currently operating in the Wild West. I'm coming to you live from San Francisco. So it literally is the Wild west out here. There's just very limited regulation and oversight, almost no transparency. We only know about these events because the company that got hacked told us and because several days Later, Anthropic and OpenAI published these blog posts.
- [46:30]
Kelly O'Donnell
And we're glad to have you to interpret and give us the proper perspective. Jared, good to see you again. Have a great weekend and thank you for your knowledge on this important topic. And still to come, the war against Iran and Russia, Russia's war against Ukraine collide. We'll explain how and what it means for the U.S. s role in both conflicts. You're watching Meet the Press now. Welcome back. There are growing concerns that two major wars, the war in Ukraine and the war against Iran, could converge into an even wider conflict. Conflict. Over the weekend, Ukraine launched a series of attacks in the Caspian Sea, which is bordered by both Russia and Iran. Ukraine's security services saying its drone struck key Russian oil infrastructure and vessels, including an Iranian ship. Ukraine says that those ships were being used to transport military cargo between Iran and Russia. It comes as NBC News is reporting that the Pentagon is turning to Ukraine for help to bolster US Drone technology with the War in Iran. And joining me now is former US Ambassador to Ukraine, Bill Taylor. And I know you have close ties to the region and you're watching all of this carefully. How significant do you think it is that Ukraine was able to make this kind of strike?
- [47:57]
Bill Taylor
Kelly, They've been able to make strikes on any input that the Russians are using. And so if the Russians are getting something from the Iranians, the Ukraine's are going to go after it. If the Russians are trying to export oil through Iran or other ways to get money for their war, they'll go after it. My sense is the Ukrainians are focused on the Russians, not the Iranians.
- [48:20]
Kelly O'Donnell
So you don't see this knitting together, these two conflicts.
- [48:23]
Bill Taylor
They clearly intersect. They clearly intersect. I mean, the Russians are providing military intelligence to the Iranians so that the Iranians can strike the American Americans. And that's, that's very clear. And the technology that you raised is, you know, the, the US Allies are counting on Ukraine to help them defend against the Iranian drones.
- [48:42]
Kelly O'Donnell
Now Iran says it will not let this go unanswered. And so how could they show some level of retaliation?
- [48:49]
Bill Taylor
So they could, they could certainly raise the level. It sounds like though, the two foreign ministers, the Iranian and Ukrainian farmers have talked and they understand that they're not after each other. They are, they want to, Ukrainians want to stop the Russians from getting information and weapons from the Iranians.
- [49:10]
Kelly O'Donnell
That's existential for Ukraine. They're focused there.
- [49:13]
Bill Taylor
Absolutely.
- [49:13]
Kelly O'Donnell
So President Zelensky, who of course was in Washington earlier this week, he was asked about this and what he sees as the link to Iran. So let's share with our audience what he had to say.
- [49:24]
Volodymyr Zelensky
I think, yes, you know, look at this. Russia gave drones to Iran. Iran used these drones attacking Middle east countries and Israel is true? Yes, it's true. The details are Russian details in the destroyed drones. Everybody saw this. This is the. Then Russia gave satellite images where American bases in the Middle east countries.
- [49:51]
Kelly O'Donnell
So is Zelensky making the argument that Russia is now hurting the United States in its war with Iran just like they have been the aggressor in Ukraine? And does that have a tactical or strategic benefit to President Zelensky as he's trying to get support from the US
- [50:06]
Bill Taylor
President Zelensky does want support from the United States, although it's frankly less important now than it was a year ago. But certainly the Ukrainians want to, want to have everybody understand where the Russians are. The Russians are on the side of the Iranians.
- [50:21]
Kelly O'Donnell
And we've been talking a lot about the US Sharing or gaining from Ukraine. Some of it's really escalating drone technology. They've been on the forefront of this. How significant is that for the US to partner with Ukraine in some way?
- [50:34]
Bill Taylor
Very important. And the US Military is very eager to do that. They are finally making some understandings, some deals, striking some understandings on how this is going to happen. As you say, the, the Ukrainians have the capabilities and developed very sophisticated ways while engaged in war because they're engaged in war because as you say, existential. They have to, they have to be better than the Russians.
- [50:59]
Kelly O'Donnell
And do you think the partnership will go both ways? Are you getting a sense that sharing the Patriot and that technology is something the president's willing to do? He's talked about it in favorable terms.
- [51:09]
Bill Taylor
The president, President Trump has talked about favorable terms. But just yesterday he said he's thinking about it, not so sure about it wavering a bit. Wavering a bit. But the Ukrainians are not waiting. Ukraine's are developing their own Patriots with the Europeans and their own. So they're not waiting the years that it's going to take to develop the patriots on their own.
- [51:27]
Kelly O'Donnell
So it's so interesting how the war in Ukraine is evolving and how the partnership with the US Is changing with the times, too. You've been on the forefront of so much. Vid Bill Taylor, thank you for being here.
- [51:37]
Dan DeLu
Thank you, Kelly.
- [51:37]
Kelly O'Donnell
Really appreciate your time. And before we go, we have some big news about a very little person, a little reporter who is in addition to our NBC News and MEET the PRESS family. Of course, you all know our friend and colleague Melanie Zanona. She and her husband just welcomed this beautiful daughter, Romy Jade Millison. She was born Wednesday, entering the world. Here, the first factor, 6 pounds, 7 ounces, 20 inches long. Mel reports that everyone is doing well. Mom and dad are in love with this little girl who couldn't be. She's beautiful. Lots of love and congratulations from all of us here at the Meet the Press team, the whole Washington, D.C. bureau. I like to say that little girl was co anchoring with Mel several times when she was anchoring this show. So we wish you well, Mel and your family and that does it for us today. We will be back on Monday and we'll have more of MEET THE PRESS now. And if it's Sunday, join MEET THE PRESS this Sunday on your local station.
- [52:36]
Craig Melvin
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- [53:59]
Craig Melvin
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