John Stepek (3:07)

Hi, Mel.

Merryn Somerset Webb (3:12)

Right, this week we wanted to talk about something kind of really quite old fashioned. Right. We wanted to talk about. Yeah. So shareholder perks. Now I think a lot, as you know, about ownership and about how we give people a sense of ownership when they hold equities.

John Stepek (3:31)

Yeah.

Merryn Somerset Webb (3:32)

And this is something that most people don't have. Right. Because they hold their equities very remotely. Either they hold them in a giant fund through their auto enrollment or they hold their shares in a, in a fund on a platform. And even if they hold their shares as a, as a single share, they still hold them on a platform. So there isn't a certificate, there isn't something to touch.

John Stepek (3:51)

Yeah.

Merryn Somerset Webb (3:52)

And also people don't go to AGMs in the way they used to in the old days. So people don't have that sense of connection to the companies in which they invest. And that's actually getting slightly worse, not better, I think. I don't know if you've seen those conversations underway at the moment too. Maybe there might, we might see an end to the physical agm. We might see an. To the way that individuals can vote on remuneration at AGMs, et cetera. And I'm really nervous about this because I really think the physical AGM should be compulsory. I think it should be compulsory for all companies to have physical AGMs. I think they should also be forced to live stream them so that you can either watch them online or you can go to them. And I also absolutely believe that tea and biscuits should be compulsory at these physical AGMs. And actually if I was going to go one step further and let me do that, I would say that lunch. Lunch should be compulsory. Yes, lunch. And what's more, what's more that the AGM should start at a time that allows older people to use their discounted travel documents to get there.

John Stepek (5:04)

That's even better.

Merryn Somerset Webb (5:05)

Okay, Maximum participation. I think this really matters.

John Stepek (5:09)

Merryn, you're meant to be anti regulation in red tape.

Merryn Somerset Webb (5:12)

I am anti regulation, but I'm pro some things, I'm pro some things. I'm pro participation, I'm pro shareholder democracy and I'm pro pro people feeling like they have a sense of ownership. And I think that we have possibly allowed companies to get away with not really Treating their individual shareholders in the way that they should. You know, if you look at the. Look at the history of AGMs, right, these used to be so much more fun. I wrote about this in that book I wrote ages ago, Share Power about. About people turning up. There were some very famous nuns, right, who used to turn up all the time. In fact, they probably still do, and engaged with companies on anything that bothered them. And long before that, there were. I wrote about these brothers, the Gilbert brothers, who made a big fortune in the California gold rush, and they moved all their money out of pickaxes, pots and pans, eventually into stock markets. And then they went to literally every single shareholder meeting and complained about everything. And when they didn't get the answers, they want is to stand up and shout, you work for me. You work for me. And I thought that was great.

John Stepek (6:11)

Well, that's activism.

Merryn Somerset Webb (6:12)

It's activism. And, you know, the world needs more. Gilbert, I will just say, before I get on to what we're actually supposed to be talking about, I wanted to point out an article I read in one of the newspapers this weekend about an order of none in West London. In fact, I've walked past this convent quite a lot now, I come to think about it. And they are doing exactly the same taking on. Taking on corporate America who are doing things they don't like. They've been running a little campaign against Citibank about fossil fuels and impact on indigenous rights. And how you might feel about that is not really the point here. The point is that if you're a shareholder, you get the perk. You get the perk of being able to use your vote, go to the agm, have your cake, make your voice known. And I think that's really important.

John Stepek (6:52)

I know that is important.

Merryn Somerset Webb (6:55)

It's all about ownership, right?

John Stepek (6:56)

Yeah, you're right. It's one of the reasons we do have a lot of problems we have at the moment is because people are either unaware of or increasingly detached from that whole concept.

Merryn Somerset Webb (7:09)

Yeah. And how do you get rid of that? How do you get rid of a distance between a person and an institution in the uk? And you know the answer and I know the answer, and I suspect that our listeners also know the answer. And the answer is discounted booze. Isn't it, though?

John Stepek (7:26)

I mean, isn't that the answer to everything? Let's be honest here.

Merryn Somerset Webb (7:28)

Well, in the uk, at least, I suspect that other countries have different dynamics, but here, cheap booze, it's the answer. And we're having this conversation because we Noticed that Chapel down is one of the few companies left that has a really great perk. If you're a shareholder in Chapel down, what is it? Well, what's the discount, John?

John Stepek (7:46)

Well, it's at least a minimum of 25% off, I think if you use

Merryn Somerset Webb (7:51)

one share minimum shares needed, one perk. Details. If you've got between one and 1999 shares, you are a silver shareholder and you get a 25% discount. If you've got 2,000 or more shares, you're a gold shareholder and you get discounts off all sorts of things, including 33% on mine. There's a platinum shareholder.

John Stepek (8:12)

Platinum shareholders. If you get more than 10,000 shares, you get 33% off wine purchases, an annual guided tour voucher for four money off at some restaurant and their shop and various other little perks as well.

Merryn Somerset Webb (8:27)

That's great.

John Stepek (8:28)

I mean, actually, to be fair, in this neck of the woods, I actually know quite a lot of people who are fans of Chapel down for various reasons. But you're right, I mean, that is the kind of thing where you would sit there and you think, well, actually, if I drink any quantity of this wine at all, and it probably, probably is worth just owning shares purely for

Merryn Somerset Webb (8:45)

that share price is only 35p. Right. 35p. And you get an annual 25% discount voucher. I mean, it's not bad.

John Stepek (8:55)

No, it's not. And I mean, this is the other thing, because I was looking at. What is it? Bloomsbury. Bloomsbury Publishing. J.K. rowling's publisher. I think they're still her publisher. You get 35% off the RRP of any of their books in print by owning one chair, which is, you know, so you really. And I think the shares are like six pound ten at the moment. So at the end of the day, if you don't have to buy very many hardback books to get the money off. And yes, by the way, it is the home of Harry Potter.

Merryn Somerset Webb (9:25)

It is the home of Harry Potter. A lot of these things now. And it used to be back in the old days that a lot of the discounts only came if you had an actual share certificate.

John Stepek (9:35)

Yeah.

Merryn Somerset Webb (9:35)

In fact, looking at the list, there are some that are still like that. BT Group PLC discounts on a variety of products and services, but is only available to shareholders with this, with a share certificate. But most of them now, if you get in touch with your platform, they can arrange for you to have proof of ownership so you can receive the perk.

John Stepek (9:52)

Well, yeah, and I mean, I think I Think that's one reason why. And I mean, the problem is actually I was just looking at some research on this and the one thing that I couldn't really find out was I don't think there's an easy way to measure whether perks have gone down in, you know, popularity or the number of companies offering them. There's certainly a sense that they have. And I think if that's the case, it is partly because we had this transition from paper shares to, you know, kind of like 112 through nominee accounts. So it became much, much harder and for the same reason. So like people going to AGM's actually and voting probably went down somewhat as well because suddenly there was this kind of middle person between you and your shares. Where I think things have changed now though is with technology it's like, I mean, for example, I have an account with one of the big platforms and is very good at nagging me to vote in the AGM when it's coming up. And so you think the transfer mechanism now for perks I think is much, much easier also, I think, to be fair, I think the BT ones, I think those offers do go. I don't think it's just the certificated people because I think that would be extremely old fashioned.

Merryn Somerset Webb (11:07)

Well, that's what it says on the Hargraves Lansdowne website, which is where I just check. Correct.

John Stepek (11:11)

I'd be surprised if there isn't a way, put it that way.

Merryn Somerset Webb (11:15)

Okay. All right. Now the best, the best ones, I'm looking down the list, right. And the best ones seem to be all about things that the Brits really like. Booze and holidays.

John Stepek (11:23)

The booze and holidays, yeah.

Merryn Somerset Webb (11:25)

So Renishaw, you get discounts on package holidays booked through the company subsidiary, Wootton Travel.

John Stepek (11:30)

Yes, that's. That's the funniest one. That's gotta be one of the funniest. It's like Renishaw's like this kind of like high tech engineering group and you can get a discount in a package all through them.

Merryn Somerset Webb (11:41)

Yeah, yeah. Norwegian Cruise Line onboard credit that maybe people aren't thinking about cruises right now. Michelin Butlers, 20% of total bill. Oh, she has no, it is, it's basically all about. It's all about. Boo Smith and Turner shareholder indulgent card giving 50% of food to drink, 10% discount in the hotels. Carnival. What do you get on Carnival?

John Stepek (12:05)

I think you get some money off

Merryn Somerset Webb (12:06)

cruises, all sorts of things. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, I was looking this up, John, because I was wondering when this all started. When did. When did this idea come that you should give people some. A sense of excitement and something extra from holding shares? And do you know when you think back about the first thing, that one of the first things that retail investors really went for, I always think of foreign and colonial, the investment trust. Right. And they had this great system back in the 1870s where when you bought a certificate, because we're not really talking about shares and we're talking about certificates that you bought at a discount and then redeemed at pars, you'd buy one for 85p. And then when redemption date came along, you get 100 backs. It was more like a bond than. Than a share. But nonetheless, they had this lottery component, so all the certificates would be out there, and then every year they would have a random draw of the certificates. And if you won, you got your money early, so you effectively made your capital gain ages before anybody else, and then you could reinvest.

John Stepek (13:08)

I like that as well, because it's a bit of elaborate financial engineering. You throw in that lottery element and people just will pay much over the odds for a lottery. Yeah, I don't actually understand why. I mean, there's probably a regulatory reason for it, but I don't understand why, like, companies should somehow figure out a way to make that gambling instinct work in their cost of capital favor again, I feel. But that. No, I mean, it's. It's very interesting. The other big one that I remember that was legendary is that it was Eurotunnel.

Merryn Somerset Webb (13:41)

Oh, God, yes.

John Stepek (13:42)

When that first listed, I think if you were among the original shareholders, you basically got something like next to free travel on the euro on the Channel Tunnel for life.

Merryn Somerset Webb (13:54)

I think you did.

John Stepek (13:55)

And I think they tried to take it away, but it was legally challenged because obviously that went through a load of restructurings and et cetera, et cetera. And I think the original shareholders still have that perk. Could be wrong, really? I don't think. I think you had to be in the original batch.

Merryn Somerset Webb (14:12)

But anybody out there who still has that do write in and let us know. That would be fascinating. We'd also like to know, if you do have it, how often you've used it.

John Stepek (14:24)

I remember working with some guys in the early 2000s who had got it and they were still using it. So it was sort of still legendary up until then, at least.

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Merryn Somerset Webb (17:30)

Oh, we forgot to mention Mulberry. We forgot to mention Mulberry.

John Stepek (17:34)

That's a good one.

Merryn Somerset Webb (17:35)

Now you get a 20% discount. I think you have to have a certain number of shares for that. I don't think that comes easy, that one, because obviously the shares are quite high in absolute terms. Well, not that high, but, you know, over a pound. And I think you. I can't remember how many you have to have, but slightly more than others. But then you get a 20% discount, which is surely worth it if you

John Stepek (17:53)

don't need to design the handbags.

Merryn Somerset Webb (17:54)

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think that when I think about perks, I think to myself, it's not really about the money. Right. It's about this sense that you're part of a group, that it sort of cleaves you to the company and it gives you a great degree of corporate loyalty. But then I remember that whenever anyone says it's not about the money, it's about the principle, it's always about the money. And I guess if I was a big buyer of Mulberry Handbags and I was a shelter, it would definitely be about the money.

John Stepek (18:19)

Well, yeah, and I think that's a good point because I was sitting there sort of like thinking, all right, well, you know, it's a bit like, oh, you shouldn't let the tax deal wag the investment dog. But actually, if you can be bothered then, and lots of people can be bothered with other sort of money saving expert type minutiae. So if you do go to a certain pub a lot and you can buy one share and get 10% off all your bills, then actually, well, why wouldn't you do it? It's not as if you're going to recoup your initial investment very quickly.

Merryn Somerset Webb (18:50)

Well, absolute. I mean, got a family wedding coming up at the end of this, end of this year or over the summer. How about some Chapel down shares? I mean, it's very compelling and I'm a big approver of this. John, what would you buy? What would you buy for the perks?

John Stepek (19:03)

I mean, for the perks.

Merryn Somerset Webb (19:05)

I think of you as a cruiser. I can't see you on a Norwegian cruiser.

John Stepek (19:09)

The women in my family quite often shop next for stuff. So just. I think you get 25% off once a year if you have enough shares there. I think it's 100 shares. And I mean, I know that's not terribly exciting, but I think some of the smaller companies haven't looked into this properly, but one of our correspondents on Twitter was mentioning a booze company on AIM that had entered. At least I think it was perhaps, maybe this was a one off thing, but basically you get a bottle of 21 year old whiskey as long as you bought shares at a certain time and had held them for a certain length of time and that sort of thing. I actually think, I think your point of ownership is actually really important on this and it was something that I hadn't kind of considered. But can you imagine if everyone in an auto enrollment pension who owned a FTSE 100 tracker got a 25% discount voucher from Next every year as part of their pension statement? And because that's, I mean, you know, I'm assuming that the majority of these would actually qualify for. Now, whether, you know, let's look, the cost of the perks may explode if that happened. But I think that's quite an interesting thing to think about because it goes back to this thing of getting people excited and interested in and understanding because then you would know, you know, all right, I actually own shares in next. I didn't know that my auto enroll pension was actually in this or, you know, or any of the other FTSE 100 companies that still offer perks.

Merryn Somerset Webb (20:43)

Yeah, and we've talked a lot over years. But look through voting and how people should be able to use their votes, even if their shares are held inside a tracker fund or an active fund or whatever it is that you should be able to still influence how your vote is used. And look through perks. Seems like an excellent idea as well. Look through perks, look through tea and biscuits, look through lunch.

John Stepek (21:05)

Well, maybe what we could do is we could say the companies. All right, we'll let you off with a lunch and not the tea and biscuits, but we'll let you off with the lunch as long as you offer an actual perk to shareholders that is on a look through basis and then they have an incentive to avoid the kind of hassle at the AGM by making sure they offer the half decent perk.

Merryn Somerset Webb (21:27)

All right, I'm good with that. As long as anyone who goes to the AGM is guaranteed teal coffee, at least two biscuits and a branded pen.

John Stepek (21:35)

Yep, yep. Okay. I think we can shake hands on that deal.

Merryn Somerset Webb (21:39)

Okay, it's a deal. I will add one thing to that is that back when I was writing that book Share Power, I looked at an FCA report that came out that was looking at how people feel about investing, et cetera, and One of the things that came up very clearly was that new investors really enjoyed the status of feeling that they were owners. And if we can give everybody that feeling of status with a little look through Perkins Free Pen and a Biscuit, I think we will really be improving matters in the uk or certainly improving matters around the stock market.

John Stepek (22:13)

I genuinely think that's a great idea. I mean, if there's a company out there that thinks actually, yeah, that's something that we could and should do, then maybe it could start at their end.

Merryn Somerset Webb (22:28)

Get in touch, let us know what perk you're prepared to offer and John and I will let you know if we approve. Thanks, John.

John Stepek (22:35)

Thanks Mel.

Merryn Somerset Webb (22:40)

Thanks for listening to this week's Marion Talks yous Money. If you like our show, rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, be sure to follow me and John on X or Twitter marionsw and John underscore Stepek. This episode was produced by Samazadi and Roses andam Sound designed by Blake Mapleton Aaron Casper Questions and comments on this show and all our shows are always welcome. Our show. Your email is merrinmoneylumberg.net.

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