Your Pension, Your Problem? Inside Nest’s Big Investment Shift

Summary

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Merryn Talks Money: "Your Pension, Your Problem? Inside Nest’s Big Investment Shift"

Host: Merryn Somerset Webb
Guest: John Stavak, Senior Reporter
Date: April 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the recent investment strategy shifts at NEST, the UK's large auto-enrollment workplace pension scheme. Merryn and John discuss NEST’s increased allocation to private assets—specifically the move to US private credit—and the scheme's wider sustainability (ESG) targets. The conversation unpacks what this means for millions of UK savers, the importance of pension-holder awareness, and broader lessons around financial engagement and advice.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defined Contribution Pensions and NEST’s Scale

[02:31 – 03:38]

• Merryn and John clarify the difference between defined benefit and defined contribution pensions.
• NEST (National Employment Savings Trust) is highlighted as one of the UK’s largest pension schemes:
  • 13.9 million members
  • £61.2 billion in assets under management
• Not every UK worker is in NEST, but its size means many listeners are likely impacted by their decisions.

2. The Private Asset Push: Why and Why Now?

[03:40 – 06:35]

• NEST has committed £450 million to US private credit and aims for 30% of AUM in private assets by 2030.
  • This includes both private credit and private equity.
  • Movement is largely to non-UK (primarily US) assets.
• Merryn raises three core questions:
  1. Is now a good time to invest in private credit?
  2. Are NEST members aware of these investment shifts?
  3. Should savers have a say in their pension fund allocations, especially as their money is placed in riskier or less liquid private markets?
• Quote:

  "We're going to put 30% of your money into the private markets. That I think should come with an email to everybody saying, hey, this is our policy. I wonder how you feel about it." — Merryn [09:09]

3. The Engagement Gap: Are Savers Paying Attention?

[06:35 – 08:25]

• John notes that auto-enrollment has increased pension participation, but most people remain disengaged from how their money is actually invested.
  • It's very easy for savers to remain ignorant/apathetic because enrollment is automatic.
• Both urge listeners to actively check their pension investments, but recognize that broad engagement remains unlikely.
• Quote:

  "If you're listening to this right and... you don't know what's in your pension auto enrollment scheme, go and check it. Don't be lazy, this is important." — John [07:24]

4. Whose Responsibility is Pension Transparency and Engagement?

[08:25 – 10:12]

• Disagreement over whether employers or providers should be responsible for investment transparency.
  • Merryn believes providers (NEST, Aviva, etc.) should proactively communicate significant policy or allocation changes, ideally with accessible explanations of risks and rationale.
  • Current statements to savers are "meaningless drivel"—not enough detail or context.
• New technology makes communication at scale far easier, so excuses for not informing or involving savers are limited.

5. The “Late to the Party” Problem & Questioning ESG and Private Markets

[10:12 – 12:16]

• John is skeptical—suggests both private asset and ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) pushes may be "knee-jerk" reactions or fads whose "time has passed."
  • Pension strategies can lag behind market realities, often implementing moves years after they were most effective.
  • References government pressure (e.g., Mansion House initiative) to push for unlisted asset allocation—a policy John calls "daft".
  • Questions the logic of heavy private asset buys when the "illiquidity premium" doesn’t look attractive.
• Quote:

  "...a lot of the time, I think with these big pension organizations, the problem is that they've started a process rolling...maybe like five years behind the times." — John [10:35]

6. What’s Actually In the Funds? Asset Allocation & UK Equities

[14:56 – 17:07]

• Merryn and John examine NEST’s "retirement date" funds, which are the default for most members:
  • Example: The 2050 fund is 42.5% Climate Aware Global Developed Equities, 5% Private Credit, approx. 4% Private Equity.
  • Private asset allocation remains below the target for now, but is “rising.”
• Key observation: Very little direct allocation to UK equities.
  • John notes that sitting on such a major pool of UK pensions, this lack of UK focus is a “missed opportunity” for influencing the domestic market.
• Quote:

  "...the idea that it's only taking a negligible stake in British listed companies and British financial infrastructure feels like a missed opportunity." — John [17:42]

7. Should Savers Have More Say?

[17:07 – 19:13]

• Merryn floats the idea that NEST and similar schemes should poll or consult members about strategic asset allocation—especially whether more UK assets should be included.
• Both echo support for "shareholder democracy."
• Providers, not employers, are best placed to lead on education and engagement.

8. Gender and Investment Advice – Evidence of Disparity

[19:13 – 23:39]

• Discussion shifts briefly to global studies on how investment advice differs by gender:
  • A German study found that women are both less likely to get rebates and more likely to be sold expensive or “in-house” (higher fee) funds.
  • The difference is small per client (5–10%), but significant in aggregate.
• They agree that these disparities are based on perceived investor “sophistication”—a problem that transcends gender and highlights the necessity of informed engagement.

9. Overcoming Information and Confidence Gaps

[23:39 – 25:45]

• Practical advice: Always bring someone knowledgeable when seeking investment advice, or at least appear knowledgeable as a safeguard (with a cheeky plug for the podcast itself).
• The hosts recognize that not every saver wants to self-manage investments—many simply want to "delegate the stress."
• UK's Retail Distribution Review (RDR) has improved transparency and removed hidden commission issues, but information asymmetry remains a risk for disengaged savers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Merryn:

  "Once you have your investments at Nest or Aviva or whoever it is, is your provider, it makes sense to me that they should have more responsibilities. I mean, I don't know what you get. I think we have different providers, but, you know, I get something in the post every now and then and it's a completely meaningless drivel..." [08:29]

• John:

  "A lot of this stuff is quite knee jerk...the problem is that they've started a process rolling. There's maybe like five years behind the times..." [10:35]

• John (on UK equities):

  "...the idea that it's not really like it's only taking a negligible stake in British listed companies and British financial infrastructure feels like a missed opportunity." [17:42]

• Merryn (on advice disparities):

  "...what is happening here is that German wealth managers in IFAs automatically see their female clients as less financially sophisticated than their male clients and so give different types of advice, i.e., make as much money as they can get away with from each class." [21:20]

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Practical Takeaways & Key Messages

• If you're in a workplace pension (esp. NEST): Check your fund’s investments periodically; don’t be apathetic.
• Transparency and communication from pension providers must improve—savers need more than generic statements.
• Major policy or allocation shifts (like to private markets or ESG) should be directly explained to members, ideally with an opportunity for feedback.
• The current setup often leaves UK equity underrepresented in UK pensions; this could be debated more openly.
• Always approach financial advice armed with questions (and companions if possible), and be wary of subtle biases.
• Delegation of investment isn’t wrong, but knowledge protects you from exploitation and mistakes.

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Useful Timestamps

• [03:40] NEST’s 30% private asset target and strategy
• [07:24] Urging listeners to check their own pension investments
• [09:09] Merryn suggests proactive policy emails from providers
• [10:35] John discussing pension policy lag and fads
• [14:56] Discussion of climate-tilted default allocations in NEST funds
• [17:42] The “missed opportunity” of not investing more in UK equities
• [21:20] Insights into gender disparities in financial advice

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For listeners: The episode stresses the importance of financial engagement. Whether you want to be hands-on or rely on a professional, knowing how your pension is invested—and voicing your views—matters for your long-term financial future.

Transcript

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Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Welcome to Maren Talks yous Money, the personal finance edition of marantalks Money. In these bonus podcasts, we talk about the best strategies for making the most of your your money. I'm Mary Sum Sut Webb and with me senior Reporter of Money Digital author John Stavak. Hi John.

[John Stavak]

Hi Mel.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Now, John, you and I both have pensions. We both have defined contribution pensions, not defined benefit pensions. And we have those because, like the majority of people in the uk, maybe that's not really true. Like a lot of people in the uk, we're employed in the private sector. It's definitely not the majority of the UK is. It might come back to that another time. Anyway, we're employed in the private sector. That means we have defined contribution pensions, which means that between US Us and our employer pops of money into an account and it's looked after, hopefully during the period of our employment. And then when we retire, we have a lump sum of some sort and we can figure out what to do with it. Now, there are various companies that offer this, this to people, this ability to have that defined contribution money managed. But one of the biggest in the UK is the publicly supported Nest pensions. Neither of us have heart pensions and those, those are not the ones used by our employers, but nonetheless, an awful lot of people do. So this pension scheme has 13.9 million members. That is a lot of people. In fact, that might be. That's pretty much all the people in work in the uk, isn't it?

[John Stavak]

Except for comment.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

No comment. Anyway. And it has assets under management of £61.2 billion. So real money. So there's a very strong chance that a reasonable number of our listeners will have their money in the various funds run by Nest. And the reason I wanted to talk about that this week is because there have been various headlines over the last week so about UK pension scheme. NEST commits £450 million to US private credit sector. Obviously, that's usually followed by despite sector headwinds, despite fund withdrawals, et cetera, et cetera. Now, 450 million, I guess you might say it's not a huge amount of money in the scheme of 61.2 billion pounds. But. But Nest has a very public target of having 30% of its AUM in private assets of one sort or another by 2030. So it wants to have both private equity and private credit at 30%. So there's quite a lot of interesting things here. I think the first is that it wants to put all this money into private. The second is that a lot of the headlines you see that come out about it putting money into private are foreign. This is not £450 million into UK based private equity and private credit funds. It's 450 million to US private credit. So that's two interesting things. And the third interesting thing that I think you notice as soon as you go and look at Nest and look at its funds is the extent to which a lot of the investment is environmental and in particular climate driven. You know, Nest has a target to get to net zeros committed to net zero along the way. So a lot of its equity investments are climate aware one way or another. So I suppose that there are a couple of questions that we should talk about. I mean, one you could say is there's a reasonable time to invest in private credit. And the second I suppose is are people aware of how Nest invests and does it matter? So if Nest is investing in a very climate aware equity way, and that's not something that everyone feels mad for, whether they should or shouldn't is a different matter. And if Nest is investing a lot in US private credit, should that be discussed? Should people be aware of it? Should maybe there be some way Asking the end investor hey guys, do you want us to put a large chunk of your money into American private credit or do you have some other ideas? And somehow this shift from the old fashioned DB pensions where it wasn't really your problem, what the money was invested in, you got your pension at the end towards something where it kind of is your problem what the money is invested in and maybe you should have more of a say over it. So couple of interesting things there and I'm going to tuck them back at you. When you look at this, what strikes you?

[John Stavak]

I mean, I think that's a really important point about people having to be more involved with their own investments. And I do think one of the positives coming out of auto enrollment over time will be that people will be more engaged with investments. I noticed our old pal Simon French from Pam your Liverham was talking about how the UK doesn't yet have a kind of 401k chat culture as the US does. But over time if everyone actually has to worry about what's in their pension, gets to grips with that, then that could be positive for investment in this country. But the other problem is that auto enrollment is the kind of thing that people will sit there, they'll say, oh, I'm getting paid in a workplace pension scheme. I mean one of the reasons that it's an opt out is because that's to make people do it by default. But the problem is that when people are doing it by default, they don't think about what's in it or they can't be bothered with the hurdle. And to be fair, I went on the NEST scheme for something that's completely different from this topic but a bit earlier today and you can, you know, it's not hard to look up what they're invested in. But the question is, is anyone going to bother? And I do think that, and I don't know who does it because if you're listening to this right and we are talking to you directly and you don't know what's in your pension auto enrollment scheme, go and check it. Don't be lazy, this is important. But we only have so many, you know, million listeners. I'll put a wee asterisk by that. And, you know, it's, it's so, so how do you get the message across? Is this something that you have to drop on employers to kind of like, you know, educate their employees and say, look, this is, by the way, what, what this invests in, but then you're going down a whole other rabbit hole of, of.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

I don't think this is the employer responsibility.

[John Stavak]

Well, I don't think so either. But who, who's this?

[Merrin Sum Webb]

I mean, once you, once you have your, once you have your, your investments at Nest or Adoeva, whoever it is, is your provider, it makes sense to me that they should have more responsibilities. I mean, I don't, I don't know what you get. I think we have different providers, but, you know, I get something in the post every now and then and it's a completely meaningless drivel and I then have to go onto the Internet and spend hours trying to find the truth. And even, even so, I can never find out things like, I mean, you can, you can see that amount of money you had at the beginning of a particular period and the amount of money that you have at the end of a particular period, but it isn't divided up, for example, into how much of that is an actual return and how much is that is you handing over more money to the provider. So the information that's provided by, by these pension providers I still think is pretty minimal. But more importantly, it would seem to me that something like, we're going to put 30% of your money into the private markets. That I think should come with an email to everybody saying, hey, this is our policy. I wonder how you feel about it. These are the upsides and these are the downsides, these are the risks. And not necessarily that Nest should then respond by going, oh, 60% of people don't want to be in private equity, so we shouldn't do that. But that people feel that they're in some way involved, that they have some agency over the, their own money and that their providers are listening. And I think that we can move that conversation forward if the fund management companies were a little bit more proactive. And this isn't complicated these days. I mean, you couldn't be proactive in the way that we're discussing 25 years ago, but technology has moved on very dramatically and you can be that proactive.

[John Stavak]

I mean, to be fair, that's a good point. I think that, I also think that if they had to do that, they might think things through a bit more clearly because I think a lot of this stuff is quite knee jerk. I mean, because, well, I mean, going back to private credit for a moment, in fact. And the ESG stuff too. I mean both of those things are fads whose time has arguably passed or which you could turn around and say that, okay, there was a period for which those apparently worked, but the conditions under which they worked have changed. And also, you know, that's not a contrarian thing even to say now. And a lot of the time, I think with these big pension organizations, the problem is that they've started a process rolling. There's maybe like five years behind the times or something like that. And it's kind of like, oh well, we must get more assets in private, so we must get more money into private assets. But actually the time for doing that was 10 years ago. And it's only just now that you're kind of catching up with it because I mean there's the mansion house is one thing and the mansion house stuff is that you've got to put 10% of your assets under management into unlisted stuff. And at least 5% of that has to be. Also half of the 10% has to be in UK related assets. And that's, I mean, I think that's a daft thing in the first place. But that's not the only driver if you're looking at putting 30% in and you're suddenly taking out half a billion of exposure to US private credit. So, you know, I do find it odd that there's this push for a full third to be in unlisted assets when the illiquidity premium does not seem to be there at the moment.

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[Merrin Sum Webb]

Yeah, yeah, interesting. And they haven't moved that far down this yet. I'm just having a look at some of the big chart in front of me. Well, they're not up to 50 retirement date funds, including the startup fund, blah blah blah. And so I'm looking at the Nest Retirement date fund in 2050. If that's when you were going to retire, you've got 42.5% in climate aware Global Developed Equities. Let's hope that's what you wanted. 5 more private credit 3.7% in rising, obviously small amounts of bonds, bonds, bonds, sterling Infrastructure Equity 3.2, Renewable Equity Infrastructure and then private equity comes in at 4.4. So in most funds you're still under 10% private credit, private assets in general as far as I can see, but rising.

[John Stavak]

Yeah. What are you looking at? Infrastructure?

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Looking at something else?

[John Stavak]

No, it's a bit of infrastructure. Yeah, I think I was Looking, I was just looking at Citywide for an overall view this morning. I read an article, a recent article there that said it's already at 15% overall. So. Well, I'm looking at rather than specific funds.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Yes, exactly. Well, I'm looking at the retirement date funds which by the way are the ones that most people will own. I think these are the defaults. But there's also the growth fund, which I'm not looking at right now, but I would imagine probably has a higher allocation to privates. But I tell you what, there is not an obvious and direct allocation to. Is, yes, you guessed it, UK equities.

[John Stavak]

Yeah, I was looking for that. That's what I was looking for this morning because we were briefly, we sort of mentioned maybe talking about price controls and I wanted to look at who Tesco's shareholder base was and I was kind of looking at pension funds and obviously Tesco's is owned by a lot of different institutions and obviously Nest does own some Tesco via other pension funds. But you're right, I was kind of like flicking through all the kind of funds and yeah, there is no listed, there's no specific UK equities. Go here and I think that's, that's wrong, you know.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Goodness me, yes. I mean here you're looking at something with this, in this extraordinary level of Aum with going on 14 million UK workers invested in it. And maybe, maybe you would say, well, you know, if, if the people who hold this pension fund are already working for the big UK companies, then maybe we should diversify them by holding, holding equities abroad. I mean that would be one way of looking at it, I guess, but I'd be more likely I think, to think, well, hang on a sec, with all this money you could have a genuine influence on the UK market were you to decide to use it.

[John Stavak]

Yeah, and I mean all you're really doing then is leaving the, you know, the way open to, you know, the Blackrocks and the Vanguards, this world or the Norwegian pension fund. I'm not saying that any of them have good bad intentions, but if you've got a UK domiciled UK funded massive pension fund, then, you know, I mean, it's the closest thing in SWF that we will ever get. So, you know, the idea that it's not really like it's only taking a negligible stake in British listed companies and British financial infrastructure feels like a missed opportunity. Is that how they put it?

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Maybe this is another thing. And this for those of you running Nest, Pensions. This is active advice. Why don't you send emails to everybody invested in all your giant funds and ask them what they would like. Would they like you maybe to invest less in American private equity and private credit and maybe a bit more in already listed not particularly expensive UK equity? It's just an idea. But we're super pro shareholder democracy, aren't we John?

[John Stavak]

Yeah, I think that's your basic point. You want to get people more involved and it's possible to get people more involved and yeah, you're right from the education point of view. Yeah. I mean the fund provider probably is the best one to do it or at least to be a lumber to that particular responsibility.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Yeah, right. There's one other thing I wanted to talk about today and it's kind of connected actually. It's about be knowledgeable, be aware, be on top of this stuff, know what is happening to your investments. And you know John, nobody hates admin more than I do. You don't even hate Headman as much as I do.

[John Stavak]

Right. We would need to have a proper competition. About that I have to say, I

[Merrin Sum Webb]

have to say I reckon we could find that I neglect it more than you do. But anyway, nonetheless. But you've got to be on top of this stuff. Now one of the thing I wanted to talk about was this report that it wasn't really important, more of a comment, a thought of the day from one of our favorite analysts at Pamia Liberum and he points out that there's a study from Germany which shows that the advice you are given, the investment advice that you were given in Germany by the way, she's not here differs by gender. So here are the things. Women are 6% less likely to get a rebate on a fund they invest in and if they do get a rebate they get a significantly lower one than men get. At the same time they're more likely 5% more likely. I mean you'll say that's not enough to be statistically significant now, but I mean I still think it's interesting. 5% more likely to get a recommendation to invest in an in house fund. The point about that being of course that the wealth management company in question will make way more money in fees on an in house fund than an out of house fund and more likely to be recommended in in house multi asset funds. You may make a lot of money from that. At the same time, 63% of men get a recommendation to invest in the most expensive funds in any particular category. But 73.2% of women get that recommendation. So what you've got here is again, I repeat, not here in Germany, a very clear division and again you'll say it's only 5 or 6 percentage points. I think that's enough to make the argument a clear division between the type of advice given to different types of people. Now, I suppose the way for us to look at this is to say let's not make this all about gender. It seems to be that what is happening here is that German wealth managers in IFAs automatically see their female clients as less financially sophisticated than their male clients and so give different types of advice, I. E. Make as much money as they can get away with from each class and they think they can get away with more with their less sophisticated class. You could take gender out of it, right?

[John Stavak]

Yeah, I think you could. And we've often discussed that there are some frustrating assumptions made about women and investing and men about investing that probably don't really hold true or certainly aren't about gender. But I think that is an absolutely fair point about seeing someone that you're assuming to be less sophisticated and then, well, presumably actually getting away with it. Because I'm assuming that the advice that's being given here is the advice that's actually followed. And I mean, obviously, yeah, okay. I mean, you can quibble with the statistical significance, although at the same time it's a big study. I mean, they looked at about 27,000 real world meetings between people. So, you know, maybe all of that kind of holds up. But I think the lesson really is, and this goes back to, as you say, what we were saying earlier, if you don't want to get taken advantage of, then you need to know something about this stuff, whether you like it or not or you need to know someone that does. So it's a bit like if you go and buy a used car, you normally ideally take a man or take a pal that knows something about cars, you know, I mean, don't take me, I know nothing.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Well, there have been several studies that show it doesn't matter how little your man friend knows as long as you take them with you.

[John Stavak]

Well, okay, well, in that case it is just sexism. You know, it's quite hard to.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

There's not that much of that, not, not much of that pure sexism left in British society. I would say.

[John Stavak]

Yeah, I think that's true. And I think, to be fair, I think Britain is actually, you know, and I'm not just saying this pure jingoism. If you look at, you know, like Eu Studies on things like race, for example, then Britain's actually well in advance of most kind of European countries when it comes to that. So I would guess something similar is true for sex as well, you know, Although I couldn't swear to that. But yeah.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Anyway, clear message, clear message. If you don't know much about finance and investing, when you go to see a wealth manager, take someone with you or an IFA take someone with you who does.

[John Stavak]

Or, you know, you could do. If you can't find a friend who knows something about it. First thing you do when you go in is you say, I was listening to that Marin Talks Money podcast the other day. You know, just casually drop that in a conversation.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Drop that in. And then you can say to them, and you should listen to that too.

[John Stavak]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Yeah, send them the link.

[John Stavak]

We'll just boost our popularity with the IFA community there again.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Well, no, I mean, I think we've been historically critical of the IFA community, but also occasionally very praising of the IFA and the wealth management community. I mean, I think they provide an extremely valuable service. Not everybody wants to do things themselves. I mean, it's interesting actually, because there's been a change in my way of thinking. When we first started out, John, all those years ago, I was absolutely determined that everybody must do everything for themselves. Everyone had to Gallagher up and manage their own money, et cetera, et cetera. And as the years have gone by, I've realized it's just stupid, never gonna happen. And, you know, most people, they don't want to. They don't want to. They've got enough to do. And also, crucially, not only they don't want to do the admin. Admin. Admin. Admin. They also. They don't want the stress. Most people do not want to wake up in the middle of the night wondering about what's happened to their money. And in difficult times, they don't want to be constantly checking their portfolio except do you know what they want? They want someone else to do that for them.

[John Stavak]

Yeah, I mean, this makes sense. You don't want to do your own plumbing.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Why not? No, no, no, I don't want to do that.

[John Stavak]

But this is what I mean. So, yeah, I mean, to be fair. Yeah. I mean, we get trades people who do things and, you know, and. And professionals to do stuff. You know, I don't. I certainly don't want to defend myself in court either. So, yeah, it's definitely. There's a function there. It's just that the information asymmetry was always the problem and I don't think it's anywhere near as bad now, partly because, well, we get ready commissions, which is clearly one thing that this German study is referring to. Which is no longer the case in the uk.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Exactly. We had the retail distribution review in the UK which changed the landscape completely and in the main, for the good few things still to be ironed out from that. That's been a long time, but in the main, very good. Right John, is there anything else that we need to add to this?

[John Stavak]

I feel the world has been put to rights in a rigorous manner.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Thank you. Goodness. Anyway, so the key bit of advice is really, I mean, I know you don't want to, but you need to know what's going on. And if you are with any of these big pension providers, just, you know, email them, let them know what you think. Always worth doing.

[John Stavak]

Right.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Thanks John.

[John Stavak]

Thanks man.

[Merrin Sum Webb]

Thanks for listening to this week's Mary and Talks yous Money. If you like our show, rate to review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Also be sure subscribe to follow me and John on X or Twitter at marionsw and johnstapek. This episode was produced by Samisadi and Moses andam. Questions and comments on this show and all our shows are always welcome. Our show email is merrinmoneylumberg.net.

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