Darryl Stickel: Unpacking Trust as a Leadership Superpower

Summary

Summary of "Mick Unplugged" Episode: Darryl Stickel – Unpacking Trust as a Leadership Superpower

Released on July 21, 2025

In this compelling episode of "Mick Unplugged," host Mick Hunt engages in an insightful conversation with Dr. Darrell Stickle, a renowned authority on trust and leadership. Titled "Unpacking Trust as a Leadership Superpower," the episode delves deep into the essence of trust, its critical role in modern leadership, and actionable strategies for building and maintaining trust within organizations.

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Introduction: The Essence of Trust

The episode opens with Dr. Darrell Stickle defining trust as:

“Trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when we can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave.”
— Dr. Darrell Stickle (00:00)

He emphasizes that trust is a delicate balance between uncertainty and vulnerability, setting the foundation for the discussion on how trust operates within leadership frameworks.

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Dr. Stickle’s Journey: From Adversity to Expertise

Dr. Stickle shares his personal story, highlighting the challenges that shaped his expertise in trust-building:

• Early Life and Adversity: Growing up in a remote town in northern British Columbia, Canada, Dr. Stickle experienced harsh winters and a tight-knit community where helping others was a necessity (05:25). At 17, a severe hockey-related injury led to legal blindness and ongoing health struggles, fostering deep empathy and resilience.

• Educational Pursuits: Despite his challenges, Dr. Stickle pursued education vigorously, earning degrees in psychology and public administration. His doctoral thesis at Duke University focused on building trust in hostile environments, a testament to his commitment to understanding and fostering trust (09:53).

• Professional Evolution: Transitioning from academia to consulting with McKinsey & Co., and eventually founding his own firm, Trust Unlimited, Dr. Stickle applied his theories in real-world settings, ranging from financial services to the Canadian military in Afghanistan (10:56).

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The Complexity of Trust in Modern Leadership

Dr. Stickle elaborates on the intricate nature of trust, breaking it down into its fundamental components:

“Trust is a combination of uncertainty and vulnerability. It means uncertainty times vulnerability gives us a level of perceived risk.”
— Dr. Darrell Stickle (11:36)

He discusses how trust varies based on the relationship depth, highlighting that as relationships deepen, uncertainty decreases, allowing for increased vulnerability and trust. In today's volatile world, maintaining this balance is increasingly challenging, leading to historically low trust levels (14:22).

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Common Missteps in Building Trust

A significant portion of the dialogue focuses on the prevalent misconceptions and errors leaders make regarding trust:

• Overestimation of Trustworthiness: Dr. Stickle points out that “95% of people believe they're more trustworthy than average” (15:50). This overconfidence can lead to misunderstandings and misplaced blame within organizations.

• Lack of Trust Vocabulary: Without a shared language to discuss trust, leaders struggle to address and improve trust levels effectively. Dr. Stickle emphasizes the need for clear communication about uncertainty, vulnerability, and desired outcomes to bridge the trust gap (16:46).

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Practical Strategies for Building Trust

Dr. Stickle offers actionable advice for leaders aiming to cultivate a trust-rich environment:

1. Foster Personal Relationships: Especially in smaller organizations, direct and personal connections between leaders and employees are crucial for building trust.

2. Structure and Reward Systems: Implement both formal and informal mechanisms that promote trust-building behaviors. This includes rewarding not just individual performance but also contributions to the team's collective success.

3. Growth and Development: Create an environment that prioritizes learning and development, demonstrating a commitment to employees' long-term success.

4. Exhibit Benevolence, Integrity, and Ability: Leaders must show genuine concern for employees' well-being (benevolence), ensure consistency between words and actions (integrity), and demonstrate competence in their roles (ability).

5. Clear Communication and Transparency: Regular, honest conversations about uncertainties and vulnerabilities enable employees to feel safe in expressing their concerns and taking risks.

Dr. Stickle highlights the importance of leaders understanding and meeting their employees' expectations, thereby reinforcing trust through consistent and reliable support (23:22).

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Evaluating Trust in Remote Environments

Addressing the challenges posed by remote work, Dr. Stickle discusses how the lack of physical interactions complicates the assessment and cultivation of trust:

• Encourage Vulnerability: Create opportunities for employees to share their uncertainties and vulnerabilities openly.

• Observe Behavioral Indicators: Look for signs of trustworthiness, such as employees volunteering ideas, taking risks, and being transparent about challenges.

• Use Structured Conversations: Instead of directly asking “Do you trust me?”, frame discussions around uncertainty and vulnerability to make conversations about trust more approachable and meaningful (29:55).

This approach helps remote leaders gauge trust levels without relying solely on traditional, less effective metrics.

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The Role of Trust in Shifting Employee Priorities

Mick Hunt brings to light the shifting priorities of modern employees, emphasizing that trust has become the primary “currency” in the employer-employee relationship:

“The modern employee, whether corporations want to believe it or not, 63% of modern employees are thinking about how to become an entrepreneur.”
— Mick Hunt (20:40)

Dr. Stickle concurs, referencing a Gallup poll indicating that “70% of employees are disengaged” (21:30) and asserting that the social contract between employers and employees is breaking down. This degradation is, in his view, a result of generational shifts and changing societal expectations, requiring leaders to adapt by rebuilding trust to foster engagement and loyalty ([22:00]-23:22).

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Dr. Stickle’s Insights on Building a Trust Culture

Dr. Stickle advocates for creating a “safe harbor” within organizations, where leaders provide stability and support, allowing employees to commit fully to shared objectives. He emphasizes that as leaders ascend to higher roles with less direct control, the onus is on them to instill trust and maintain a positive organizational culture (23:22).

He also discusses the importance of active feedback and setting clear expectations. For example, when an employee seeks promotion, leaders should transparently articulate the steps and standards required, thereby aligning expectations and reinforcing trust through clear, actionable guidelines (27:10).

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The Uniqueness of Dr. Stickle’s Approach

Dr. Stickle differentiates his approach to trust-building through his book "Building Trust," which he describes as practical and accessible, incorporating elements often overlooked in traditional trust literature, such as vulnerability, perceived outcomes, and emotional factors:

“The inclusion of vulnerability… Most of the trust literature treats trust like a dichotomous variable… Really, it's a spectrum influenced by individual relationships and contextual factors.”
— Dr. Darrell Stickle (38:06)

He critiques the simplistic binary view of trust and instead presents it as a nuanced continuum, influenced by individual relationships and contextual factors.

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Interactive Segment: Quick Five Questions

In a lighter, interactive segment, Dr. Stickle answers five quick questions, adding personal anecdotes that further humanize his expertise:

1. First Impressions of Chapel Hill: Recalling his experiences in Chapel Hill, Dr. Stickle shares fond memories of local eateries and community vibes, highlighting the stark contrast between Chapel Hill and Durham (34:00).

2. Books Influencing His Perspective: He recommends "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman and “Exit, Voice, and Loyalty” by Albert Hirschman, which delve into human behavior and responses to challenges (35:02).

3. Trust-Building Dinner Choice: Dr. Stickle humorously opts for simple, spill-proof meals like chicken breast or steak to align with practical trust-building environments (35:42).

4. Daily Habit for Trust Building: His daily habit involves having at least one positive, impactful conversation, either with his sons or a friend, to reinforce trust and his sense of self (36:18).

5. Best Book on Trust: Emphasizing the importance of actionable strategies, he reiterates that his book "Building Trust" uniquely addresses the practical steps necessary to cultivate trust, beyond theoretical discussions (37:59).

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Conclusion: The Path Forward

In concluding the episode, Dr. Stickle shares resources for listeners to further engage with his work, including his own podcast “The Improv Cafe” and his website TrustUnlimited.com. Mick Hunt expresses heartfelt gratitude, acknowledging the practical insights garnered from Dr. Stickle’s expertise and underscoring the paramount importance of trust as a foundational element for leadership and organizational success (41:47).

The episode wraps with Mick encouraging listeners to harness their “because” — their core driving force — as a superpower for creating meaningful impact, inspired by the profound discussions on trust shared throughout the episode.

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Notable Quotes

• Defining Trust:

  “Trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when we can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave.”
  — Dr. Darrell Stickle (00:00)

• On Trust Overestimation:

  “95% of people believe they're more trustworthy than average.”
  — Dr. Darrell Stickle (15:50)

• Trust as Currency:

  “Trust is the number one form of currency today.”
  — *Mick Hunt ([20:40

• Trust as Risk:

  “Trust is a risk. And it wouldn't be so rare if it didn't have the potential to be harmful.”
  — Dr. Darrell Stickle (18:44)

• On Building a Safe Harbor:

  “If I'm a leader today, I need to be able to think about how to build a safe harbor, create a place of stability for those I lead so that they're willing to work hard for a shared objective.”
  — Dr. Darrell Stickle (22:59)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Mick Unplugged" offers a profound exploration of trust within the landscape of modern leadership. Dr. Darrell Stickle's expertise provides listeners with a deep understanding of trust's multifaceted nature and equips them with practical tools to enhance trust in their personal and professional lives. By bridging theoretical concepts with real-world applications, the episode serves as an invaluable resource for leaders aspiring to create meaningful and impactful organizational cultures.

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For more insights and resources, listeners can follow Dr. Darrell Stickle on his podcast "The Improv Cafe," visit TrustUnlimited.com, or reach out via email at [e-mail].

Transcript

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when we can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave. And so for me, it means uncertainty times vulnerability gives us a level of perceived risk, and we each have a threshold of risk that we can tolerate.

[Mick]

Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast for self improvement, leadership, and relentless growth. No fluff, no filters, just hard hitting truths, unstoppable strategies, and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Let's go.

[Mick]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back for another powerful episode of MC Unplugged. And today's guest is the man that I call the architect of trust. Building bridges where walls once stood. From global corporations to conflict zones, his work unlocks the human code behind true modern leadership. He's insightful, he's grounded, he's transformational. He is the good doctor. Dr. Darrell sticker. Dr. Darrell, how are you doing today, brother?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Brother. I really appreciate you having me on the podcast and I'm looking forward to spending some time together.

[Mick]

I appreciate you being here. You know, off top, we have to let the viewers and listeners understand this. We kind of don't like each other. Dr. Darrell, you know, I'm a UNC grad, and you went to that school that starts with D in Durham, North Carolina, that I can't pronounce very well, right? How did we get here?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Well, the cream always rises is what I would suggest. And we may not like each other, but I think given time, we come to love each other.

[Mick]

No, absolutely. Absolutely. As you know this, right? And I think. I think most people understand this. Duke and UNC do have a love hate relationship, right? A lot of hate. But it's a bunch of mutual respect, right? Like, take sports out of it. You have graduates of Duke, graduates of unc. We always like to rib each other, right? But there's so much mutual respect. We just don't like when outsiders talk about the other school. Like, you can't hate Duke more than I hate Duke, I promise you.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right.

[Mick]

And I'm sure that's how it is for you too, right? Like, when it comes to sports, no one can hate UNC more than you can hate unc. So unless you went to Duke, you don't understand. Unless you went to unc, you don't understand.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It's that intense rivalry. But also, as I was saying to you before we started recording, I took half my. During my doctoral studies, I took half my classes at UNC Chapel Hill. I have so much respect for the faculty and the institution and the graduates.

[Mick]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you're wearing a Carolina blue shirt today in honor of the University of National Champions. So I understand. Appreciate it. So, Dr. Darrell1, I am truly honored to have you on, man. Like, you know how much I respect you. I'm. I like to consider myself a person that's pretty well respected in the modern leadership phase of life. And I know that you were there as well, too. But before we get into all of your great work, I like to ask my guest, this first question is what's your because? What's that real why behind the why that keeps you doing what you do? Right. You are well acclaimed. Right. Lots of awards, lots of articles about you. You have Fortune 100 clients and you're speaking all over the world. What's your passion? What's your. Because that keeps you doing what you do.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

So I. Wow. I'm going to get a little emotional here. I'm sorry.

[Mick]

No, that's what we're here for.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

The path I've traveled has included some real hard knocks. And I believe that sometimes a hard road can be a good teacher. And I have learned from that experience how to help people better understand one another, how to help people build trust with one another. And I have a perspective that's unusual. I won't say it's unique, but it's. It's rare. You know, there's a blend of theory and practice that gives me a. An unusual perspective on the world. I also have two sons that mean more to me than anything.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And when I see the world the way it is now, with trust levels the lowest we've ever seen, our struggles to get along, I feel like I have an obligation to try to make the world a better place and a strong motivation. Because of my sons. I want the world to be a better place for them.

[Mick]

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. That's beautiful. You know, and you talk about your unique path and I want to ask you about that and just why trust means so much to you and why it's so important that this is the message that shared across the world, you know, knowing you like I do, doing a ton of studying of you. Right. Like you're legally blind. So trust is multifaceted for you. Right. So. So let's talk about your path a little bit and that journey that's so unique to you.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

So I grew up in a small town in northern British Columbia, Canada. And it was fairly remote. It was about an hour drive to the next tiny community. And winters were harsh. People had to pull together, you know, There was a sense of, if you could help someone, you should. And so I grew up with that kind of feeling, that instinct, that set of values. And then, you know, I. I played hockey because most people played hockey when I grew up.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

I was playing at a fairly high level. I was playing junior, and I got attacked by a fan with a club. Shattered my helmet, knocked me unconscious. I stopped breathing three times on the way to the hospital. It was traumatic. And at the time, you know, I was 17, I knew that I was going to lose my sight, that. That I was going to become legally blind at some point. I had a hereditary retinal disorder that was. That. That was going to rob me of the ability to do many things. And so I had come to the conclusion that I would train my brain so I could think for a living. Now, all of a sudden, I couldn't think at all, Right. I had the attention span of a fruit fly. And it was the mid-80s, 1984, and we didn't know a lot about concussions. And so people were saying, well, it'll just pass. Just walk it off. It'll be fine. It took a couple of years for the symptoms to reside. And, you know, I. I was tired all the time, struggling to pay attention, struggling to learn. And so there was this feeling of helplessness and hopelessness and loss that gave me real empathy for people who were struggling. And when I started to recover, I. I moved to Victoria, which is on Vancouver island, just off the west coast of Canada. And I was going to school there, and I'd be on the. On the bus, and complete strangers would just sit down next to me and say, I'm really having a hard time. And so I wanted to understand what it was that drew people to me, that allowed them to feel open and comfortable with me. And so I started working with families in crisis and troubled teens and working on crisis lines, trying to hone those skills and. And come to a better understanding of what it was that was driving that. And at the same time, I was going to school, right? Like I was. I did an undergraduate degree in psychology, a master's degree in public administration. And while I was working in native land claims in British Columbia, they would ask me these deep philosophical questions, like, what is self government? Or what will the province look like 50 years after claims are settled? The last question they asked me, Nick, was, how do we convince a group of people we've shafted for over 100 years they should trust us? And I thought, man, that's a good question. Wow. And so I went to Duke, wrote my doctoral thesis on building trust in hostile environments, and had the good fortune of having two of the world's leading academics on the topic of trust. On my committee at Duke. One of them showed up the year I did. The other one showed up the year after I did. And it's hard not to feel like it was intentional somehow. Right. Like this whole pattern of events was leading to me learning and understanding this topic the way that I do. And after I finished, they sat me down and they said, you know, when you first came to us, we, we had a conversation with each other. We said, topics too big, he'll never solve it. It's too complicated. We'll give him six months, he'll come crawling back to us, and we'll let him chisel off a little piece of this, and that'll be his thesis. They said six months in, you were so far beyond us, we couldn't help anymore. All we could do is sit and watch.

[Mick]

Wow.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Now here we are a couple years later, and we think you've solved it. And so I ended up going to McKinsey & Co. Working as a consultant. And they said, wow, you've got good client hands. Let's send you to the worst places possible. So now I'm getting a chance to apply the concepts that I've worked on. Right, right. And then I was injured again, post concussion syndrome. I was on the way to a client site, cab I was in, rear ended, another vehicle. And I was back to struggling with fatigue and memory and concentration problems. And. And so I ended up starting my own little company called Trust Unlimited.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And for the last 20 plus years, I've been helping individuals and organizations better understand what trust is, how it works, and how to build it. And I, I've been learning that whole time, Nick.

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

You know, from helping financial services organizations to helping nonprofits, to helping the Canadian military try to figure out how to build trust with the locals in Afghanistan. Each of those teaches me something, which is, which is what helps differentiate me. Right. It's a very practical, applied approach to what feels like a complex problem.

[Mick]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Darrell, you've said trust is a risk. Right. Can you unpack that for the listeners and viewers? Like, what makes trust a risk in this high stake world that we're in?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah, well, yeah. So for me, trust is a combination of uncertainty and vulnerability. Right. The definition that I use is trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when we can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave. And so for me, it means uncertainty times vulnerability gives us a level of perceived risk. And we each have a threshold of risk that we can tolerate. And if we go beyond that threshold, we don't trust. If we're beneath it, then we do. And what that means then, Mick, is that if uncertainty is really high, vulnerability has to be pretty low. And as our relationships deepen, the uncertainty comes down. The range of vulnerability we can tolerate starts to grow. What we're seeing right now is that our vulnerability is fairly set, but uncertainty is bouncing all over the place. And so you and I connect and you're already experiencing discomfort with how volatile the world is. And I ask you to make yourself just a little bit more vulnerable. For me.

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[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

That'S a harder ask than it used to be. Yeah, because you're already feeling overexposed.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It's why our trust levels are so low right now.

[Mick]

That's great perspective. You know, I, I didn't even look at it from that lens, but you're exactly right, man. And you know, working with all the organizations that you do and leaders that you do, what's like one common trust destroyer that you see as a common theme amongst companies, big or small? Like what are companies and leaders getting wrong about trust that they could easily do to fix it?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Wow, that is a great question. You know, and I don't know that there's a silver bullet. I think that, you know, for me there's 10 levers that we can pull to build trust yeah. And those who are really good at building trust understand that. And they know how to pull multiple levers and when to pull them. Mary, a lot of people have this profound lack of awareness of trust, and they have a lever that they pull over and over again. Right. So if we wanted to build trust, we'd have to understand where does uncertainty come from? Where does vulnerability come from? How do we influence perceptions of outcomes, and what are the emotional stakes? I think the biggest challenge for most organizations is just a complete lack of awareness.

[Mick]

Agree.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And so 95% of people believe they're more trustworthy than average. Like, I suspect you and I could go to a prison and we could interview the inmates and say, do you think you're trustworthy? And they go, oh, yeah, yeah. You can trust me. Nobody else in this place but me. I'm. I'm golden.

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

The problem that creates for us is that if we do have a misunderstanding, if we do have a disagreement, I assume it's somebody else's fault. I don't do the work I need to do, and I don't take their perspective into account. Right.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And so, you know, the biggest gap we find is between leader. How much leaders believe they're trusted and how much they actually are. So I think the. The impact that we see is often around creating a vocabulary that people can use.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Talking about uncertainty, talking about vulnerability, talking about, you know, what's a good outcome look like, being clearer and actually having conversations with one another. One of my, you know, my aspirations to be one of the best guests you've ever had, which is a high.

[Mick]

Bar, but you're doing a great job.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

But to do that, I'd have to ask you, what does great look like for you?

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right. So what would it look like if I was a great guest for you?

[Mick]

Yeah. A great guest for Make Unplugged provides amazing insights that the viewers and listeners can put in the application immediately.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right.

[Mick]

I like things in simple forms, and so do my viewers and listeners.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Okay. And if I wanted to do an even better job, we would ask your listeners.

[Mick]

Correct.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

What are some of the best episodes you've heard from Mick?

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And what was it about those episodes that really drove things home for you? And so if I don't include you in the conversation, I just assume what excellence looks like.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

I miss often. Right. I could come on here and say, oh, I'm from Duke, and be naive to the fact that that actually doesn't work in my favor for you.

[Mick]

Correct, Right. Correct.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And I. I could say oh, I've spoken at Harvard. You could say la dee da. Right. So does the janitor.

[Mick]

Right, right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And so I could trot out all these things, but if I don't know what you think excellence looks like, then I'm gonna miss. And so a lot of times, what we encourage people to do is actually have a conversation about what good looks like, you know? And I do that with my sons. I say, what does a good dad look like? And I got to tell you, it's terrifying, Mick.

[Mick]

It is.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Because what if they say not you?

[Mick]

Right, right. That's the risk. Right. Trust is a risk.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Trust is a risk. And it wouldn't be so rare if. If. If it didn't have the potential to be harmful.

[Mick]

Correct?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right. We. We know that trust provides incredible benefits, and it's actually more. More valuable now than it's ever been because it's so scarce. But the reason we don't have it is because it comes with risk.

[Mick]

Totally agree. Totally agree. You know, on the leadership track, I asked my kids, you know, tell me who a good leader is, in your opinion. Like, who are your top three people that you would classify as good leaders? Right. Take dad out of the equation. Right. I did a little bit differently, Darrell. I took myself out so they couldn't say dad. Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right.

[Mick]

I wasn't gonna hurt my feelings. Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Good call.

[Mick]

But what each of them did was they gave me three social media influencers.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Okay.

[Mick]

And it made me pause, and I was like, but you don't know that they're a good leader. You don't even know that they're famous. You just know that they have a lot of followers. Right. And that's someone that you listen to or that you follow. And it really made me pause, and it's. And I said, okay, when I grew up, right, like, we went to libraries, and there were biographies, Right. There used to be exposes on TV around great leaders and the history of leaders. And when you go to an amazing school like the University of North Carolina, you know, you're indoctrinated into great leadership because we have libraries about specifically great leaders and good leaders. And I said, the world is missing that. And it made me go a little bit further. And this is why I connect with you so well. You know, I say, for the modern employee, trust is the number one form of currency today. Right?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right.

[Mick]

It's not your benefits package. It's not your pension. It's not your 401k. Because the modern employee, whether corporations want to believe it or not, 63% of modern employees are thinking about how to become an entrepreneur, whether that's a side hustle job for them, but they're thinking of some other means of income that they can control. Doesn't mean that they're going to go full fledged, start another company. But the benefits aren't as important to them as much as me trusting Darrel as my leader to be transparent about his vision, his purpose, where the company is going, good or bad. That's what the modern employee seeks first and foremost. And I'd love your response or your take on that as well, too, being that you are who I consider the guru of trust, the godfather of trust.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah, brother, you've nailed it. We see there's a Gallup poll not too long ago that showed that 70% of employees are disengaged.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

I believe the social contract is broken.

[Mick]

Yep.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

You know, we used to have this mindset of, you go to school, you work hard, you're going to be successful, you're going to have a house and a family and vacations and the things and a retirement. Right. Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't feel like any of that's true anymore.

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And people sort of denigrate the generations that are following us. My son gave me this great quote about, you know, the kids of today are lazy and ill informed and lack motivation. And it just went on and on. Right. And. And the quote was from the 1930s.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

So this is not a new phenomena. And what older people like us need to realize is that they're reacting to the context that they're embedded in. The rules of the game have changed and they have a better understanding of it than we do.

[Mick]

Oh, for sure.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And so when they don't sell out for a corporation, you know, when they hear these billionaires saying, you need to work harder, what they hear is, you need to work harder. So I make more money. And I believe that the more senior we become, the less direct control we have over outcomes, the more we rely on those we lead to reach our goals and objectives.

[Mick]

Totally agree.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Totally. If I'm a leader today, I need to be able to think about how to build a safe harbor, create a place of stability for those I lead so that they're willing to work hard for a shared objective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're completely in alignment.

[Mick]

So for the business leader, I don't. I'm not even saying business owner, but for the business leader. Right. What are some steps that they can take to. To start this culture of trust? Like, what are two or three things that they can implement today. And I'm going to say think of like the. What the. The Small Business association considers a small business, so 25 million and under of revenue. Right. So talk to that business leader.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Okay. So you're still in a fairly manageable state in terms of being able to have direct connections with your employees at that size. Yeah, those personal relationships are actually really important. And the levers I think about, particularly when it comes to uncertainty, uncertainty comes from us as individuals and from the context we're embedded in. Right. The rules of the game. And so I encourage people to be really mindful of how they structure things, how they manage the context. So what are the formal and informal mechanisms that they put in place? Do they reward the right behaviors? Do they evaluate people not just based on their production, but based on how they contribute to the production of others? And do we have a mindset around growth, learning, and development for everybody that's there? And so that's the context piece when we start talking about, you know, the things that I control individually as a leader. There's benevolence, integrity and ability. And benevolence is just a fancy word that means having your back, having your best interest at heart. And so, you know, a lot of times people will say, well, and this is. I'll give them some. A conversation they can start tomorrow.

[Mick]

Okay?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

They can say, I heard this yahoo from Duke talking, and he gave me confidence that not everyone from Duke's an idiot.

[Mick]

There you go.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And he said that having people's best interest at heart or having their back is actually a strong way to build trust with them. And I think I do that. But it doesn't always seem to land that way. Have you ever experienced that? And the person they're going to talk to is going to say, oh, God, yeah, get curious about that. What did you try? Right. How did it go wrong?

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

How did they misinterpret then narrow the funnel? Have you ever had someone really have your back? What did they do? What did it look like? How did it feel? Now you're priming them to think about what their best interests are, what success means to them, and some situations where they've experienced it before. The you narrow the funnel a little further and you say, what is success for you? How do I help you get there? What would it look like if I had your back? And now you've created a moment where there's a possibility for transparency. And so if. If one of your employees says to you, I'd like to get promoted here doesn't mean you're going to be nice to them all the time. It means, okay, I'm going to hold you to the standard of the next level up. I'm going to start giving you opportunities that go beyond the scope of your current job. I'm going to expose you to other folks so that they get a chance to see that, yeah, you deserve to be promoted, so that I can make the argument to others when the time comes. And these are going to be the expectations. And so now you can start to be transparent when you say, remember when you said you wanted to get a promotion? This is what it looks like in the next role. This is what good looks like in the next role. This is the feedback I'm going to give you. And so there's not a miscommunication there.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And integrity is following through on your promises, actions that line up with the values you express. And so we actually need to understand what promises people think we've made. Not just the promises we've explicitly made, but the ones that they think we've made. And so when I do workshops, I'll start off by saying, what would make this one of the best workshops you've ever seen? And I create a list, and then as I go through, I try to hit that list and I check back in with them. Am I doing what you asked me to do? And if they come up to me at the break or after this session and say, I wish I'd included this piece in the list, it's not me failing to deliver something they expected, it's them having forgotten.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And I can take the chance then to correct that in the moment. Right. So that I can show integrity, so that I can follow through on the commitment that that is implied between us.

[Mick]

Love it.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And then for ability, I asked them, you know, what would excellence look like? And we actually have a conversation. You've had good bosses in the past. What did they do? What. What did you really like about bosses you've had in the past? What did you really not like? Like you were asking with your kids? Yeah.

[Mick]

That's deep, Darrell. Brother, that is so deep. That is so deep. Another question I wanted to ask you quickly because I get asked this question a lot, and you're the guru. So I get to go to the guru of trust today. Right. And again, we're talking about modern leadership today. We have to deal with remote work, which is something in the 90s, early 2000s wasn't a thing.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right, right.

[Mick]

How can a corporation. I'm not even Going to say, build trust, evaluate trust. When you don't see everyone day to day, and a lot of times you're not looking people in the eye. Right. I have clients, Darrell, who literally. And we're talking teams of thousands.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah.

[Mick]

Have never seen each other in person. And when they do have interactions, it's interactions virtually like this. And there's not a requirement or. I'll say that differently. Before hiring me, there wasn't a requirement to have your camera turned on in a virtual meeting. And I said, first thing we're doing, we're not bringing everybody together, but it has to be mandatory that you look people in the eye. So for you, quickly, how can someone evaluate trust in a remote environment?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

That's a great question. And you and I could talk about this topic for quite a while, actually.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

I will often ask leaders, who do you trust? And I get these sort of close, tight, personal relationships. Right. Like siblings, spouse, best friend, parents. And the reality is we trust people all the time. It's just that we trust some people more than others.

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

When I flip the question and say, who trusts you? I'll get this really long pause. Right. And inevitably someone will say, how would we know? How do I know if somebody trusts me or not? And I go back to the definition, which is the willingness to be vulnerable. And so how can their employees make themselves vulnerable to them? And then do they. Right. Do they tell them what the real development needs are? Do they push back against ideas they don't think are going to work? Do they speak up in meetings? Do they try new things? Are they willing to make mistakes and take risks? Who hears about the bad news first? Right. Is it the boss? Right. Or are you the last one to hear? Those are all ways we can understand if people trust us or not. And, you know, I'm getting this question often from leaders who say, I, I want people to be in the building more often, not just for monitoring purposes, but because I think it's important for the culture. And they're right. Some level of collaboration is facilitated by us being together.

[Mick]

Right?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Right. You and I, if we were sitting in the same room, would have the chance to observe different things about each other, to have a side conversation after the session, to just connect as human beings. Right. There'd be a vibe that builds. And I feel comfortable with you already. And we. We haven't really been speaking for all that long, but I just. There's something about it. And, you know, I've advised companies that are truly global, and for them, they say it's the vocabulary. It's not saying, do you trust me? Because people aren't comfortable answering that question, and sometimes they don't know.

[Mick]

Right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

You know, how much the right response to that question is with what? Right. So I think being able to say, where's your uncertainty at?

[Mick]

What.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

What are you feeling vulnerable about right now with this?

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It lets them have conversations that are easier to have. Does that make sense?

[Mick]

It totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. I actually, I just took a quick note on that because is something that I need to start asking my team members. Right. Like, I have three different companies, and. And they're remote as well, too. So I need to start asking those questions for us, because while I think we have. Or not, I think I know we have a great culture. I know that we have a culture of trust. I still. Some of that's assumption. Right. Some of that. So I need to. To truly make sure by asking the.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Questions, you have a presence that's comforting. It's. It has wisdom embedded in it. I have no doubt that your teams trust you. I have no doubt that you're a great leader.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Even you, as skilled as you are, can get better. This is a skill that we can build. Yes. Right. So.

[Mick]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Darrell, before I let you go, because I know you're busy, you've been gracious with your time, I like to do what I call, like, my quick five segments. So five quick questions. All right.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

All right.

[Mick]

So you went to that school over in Durham.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah.

[Mick]

D O O K is how it's spelled for the viewers and listeners, in case you didn't know. So my first question for you, Darrell, because I know that you said you went to Chapel Hill quite a bit. Right?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah.

[Mick]

So the first time that you went to Chapel Hill and then you had to drive back to Durham, how disappointed were you?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Oh, brother. You know what? I don't know if it's still there, but 411 west was one of my favorite restaurants. Yes. Bessame Burrito was awesome. Chapel Hill is a much nicer community than Durham.

[Mick]

Thank you.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It's not even close.

[Mick]

Dr. Darrell said that. I didn't say it.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a much nicer place.

[Mick]

There you go. There you go. So for. For my buddy Chris Paradiso, you heard him shout out 411 West. We'll see 411 west in September together. All right, Darrell, couple other questions. What's one book that's changed how you see human behavior?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It's called Building Trust, Exceptional Leadership in an Uncertain World by Daryl Stickle.

[Mick]

I was giving it to you because that is mine. That's why I put that question in there.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah. I think Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow by Kahneman, Daniel Kahneman.

[Mick]

Okay.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Is a good book. Exit Voice and Loyalty by Alberto Hirschman, who looks at the different way that economists and, and political scientists think about how people react when things start to go wrong.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Those are books that have really caused me to think.

[Mick]

Okay.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah.

[Mick]

If, if you're at a trust building dinner, what meal are you ordering for yourself?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Depends on what shirt I'm wearing because it's. The shirt's got to blend with the stains of the food that I'm going to leave on it. Probably something simple.

[Mick]

What's the simple?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah, it's got to be simple. Maybe like a chicken breast or. Yeah, maybe. Maybe a steak.

[Mick]

Okay.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Probably not pasta because I can spill that too easily.

[Mick]

There you go.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

There you go.

[Mick]

I always told people a steak dinner is a, is a psychological trust moment. Right. You sit at a steakhouse, the, the naturally, the steakhouse is going to have a darker but warmer feel and environment. And people are naturally trusting in that type of environment.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah. More relaxed.

[Mick]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. All right. What's one daily habit that you have for you and trust building for yourself?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Oh, so I try to have positive impact on somebody every day. So I try to have one conversation. Often it's with my sons where I talk to them about. We interpret the world through stories. Yeah, right. And that positive narrative that I have for them needs to be refreshed often. Because the world's a hard place.

[Mick]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And so my sons need to know that I've got their best interest at heart, that I've got their back. And if I'm not talking to one of them, I'm talking to a friend or colleague every day. I try to have positive impact because it's part of how I maintain my sense of self, a sense of value in the world.

[Mick]

I love it. You kind of. You've already answered my last question, but I'm going to give you the floor again. What is the best book on trust, Trust foundation and Building Trust, and why is it titled Building Trust?

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

I, you know, I've, I've actually received external feedback from folks who've read the book saying, okay, I've read everything on trust. This blew me away.

[Mick]

Yes.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And it's because it's talking about building trust. So many people are talking about the importance of trust and the fact that we don't have much of it. Almost no one's Talking about how to build it.

[Mick]

Correct.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

There was a conference a couple years ago titled Building Trust in Institutions that Duke was sponsoring and I was virtually attending. And they went through and they were talking about all the symptoms, like end of democracy, kinds of numbers for trust in government, trust in media, trust in technology and AI. And somebody finally said, okay, you know, we get it, things are bad, but the title of the conference is Building Trust. What do we do? And the moderator looked into the camera and said, we just don't know.

[Mick]

Wow.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And I do know. Right. That's what I do for a living. And so the book is written in a way that normal people can read it. And there's a lot of things that I do that the existing trust literature just doesn't do. Right. So the inclusion of vulnerability.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Most of the trust literature treats trust like a dichotomous variable, Nick. It treats it like it's either present or absent, like an old time light switch. Really. And the reality is we trust some people more than others. Truth and the inclusion of perceived outcomes. We interpret the world through stories and so we can have the same experience and have dramatically different perceptions of what just happened. We're seeing that play out across the US right now in alarming fashion.

[Mick]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And the inclusion of emotions. Right. Trust literature treats people like they're rational actors. And you've met people. Right couple. We're not always rational.

[Mick]

Correct.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

So. So I think I wrote the book so that if I disappear, what I know doesn't. Trying to get the signal through the noise.

[Mick]

Love that. Love that.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yeah.

[Mick]

Well, Dr. Daryl, where can people find you? Follow you, get more insights from you.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

So I have my own podcast, which I'd love to have you on. The Improv Cafe.

[Mick]

Yes.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

I'll send you a link and you can schedule a time.

[Mick]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It's an excuse for us to talk again, at least once more.

[Mick]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

And we can talk about your book. Let's go.

[Mick]

Let's do it.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

Yes, sir. So the Imperfect Cafe is the podcast I have. You can check me out on trustunlimited.com there's articles on there, there's videos connected to it. It's all free. People can find the book anywhere. You buy books online, it's available as an ebook or an audiobook. And if people want to reach out to me because they're struggling with something, It's [e-mail] D, A, R, R, Y.

[Mick]

L. I appreciate that, sir. I'll make sure that we have links to all of that in the show notes and the descriptions. Dr. Darrell, honored to have you on. You are the person I consider the expert, the guru when it comes to trust. And I have notes right here that I took down that I have to start implementing today too. Because as you said it, everyone should be trying to get better, right? And I know that I can get better. So I thank you for the wisdom that you gave me today.

[Dr. Darrell Stickle]

It's a skill we can all build and I really appreciate you letting me talk with you and your listeners.

[Mick]

You got it. And for all the viewers and listeners, remember you're because is your superpower. Go unleash it. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged. If today hits you hard, then imagine what's next. Be sure to subscribe, rate and share this with someone who needs it. And most of all, make a plan and take action because the next level.

[C]

Is already waiting for you. Have a question or insight to share?

[Mick]

Send us an email to [e-mail] until next time, ask yourself how you can step up.