← Mick Unplugged
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- [00:00]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I'm not going to work with you if I don't believe that you are ready to do the work. And so we have to have a lot of conversations about the sacrifices it's going to make, the sacrifices you're going to have to make, the challenges you're going to confront.
- [00:16]
Mick
Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast for self improvement, leadership and relentless growth. No fluff, no filters, just hard hitting truths, unstoppable strategies, and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits? Let's go.
- [00:39]
Host
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of MC Unplugged. And today we have brilliance in the building. She's a scholar, she's a strategist, she's an advocate, transforming the conversation around racial equality, education and leadership. We're talking about going from classrooms to communities, from research to real world impact. She's brilliant, she's fearless, she's a catalyst. None other than the Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams. Dr. Adrian, how you doing today, dear?
- [01:10]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I'm doing well. You did a great job with that intro. I'm gonna have to hire you to, like, you know, lead everything I do whenever I show up.
- [01:17]
Host
$5 goes a long way. So, Dr. Williams, there's so much that I want to get into. You know, like I said in the intro, you're brilliant. Huge fan of the work that you're doing in the communities, in the boardrooms and the classrooms, like everywhere. So I want to start with this question of what's your. Because what's your. That thing that's deeper than your why, like your core purpose that's fueling all the work that you're doing. Yeah, what's your. Because.
- [01:51]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I knew you were going to ask this question. I did my research too. I did my homework. I'm a scholar. And I've been thinking about it really deeply and I struggle to answer it. I think at the core of it, I really fundamentally believe that every single human being has something beautiful and wonderful to offer and that the systems that we create as people, sometimes because we are tribal in some ways, because we are, you know, threatened by difference, by all the different things, all the different isms that we have, we actually diminish our collective power. We diminish what we can become as an entire human society because we don't value human beings. And so my, I think that's my why. I think that there should be nothing standing between any individual human being in their absolute best potential, selfishly, because I think that we would all benefit from it.
- [02:50]
Host
I love that. I love that. You know, like I said, a huge fan of your work. But when did that become, like, your catalyst, right? Like, when did you know that this was the work you were destined to be doing? And not only destined to be doing, but making an impact with the work that you do?
- [03:08]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
So I think my very first inkling was when I went away to boarding school. So I went away to boarding school when I was 14 years old. And I'm from Memphis, Tennessee, South Memphis. And I had friends all in elementary school and junior high school, and I went away to boarding school for the ninth grade. And it was only a few days that I was there on campus that I realized that I was seeing and experiencing something that none of my friends were going to experience. I was getting so much privilege. The campus was beautiful. The food was amazing. The teachers were always smiling. The classrooms were vibrant. And I thought, well, I mean, I'm smart and everything. I know I'm special in some ways, but. But I went to school with other really smart folks. Even though we didn't have a lot of money, we didn't come from the fanciest neighborhoods. There were some amazing friends that I left behind, and they weren't going to get this. It's like, what is that about? And I feel like that was the seed that every step I took afterwards, even though I wanted to go into mechanical engineering and study physics, I didn't. I ultimately went into education and economics. Like, everything, every step I took ultimately led me to really trying to figure out, how do we eliminate that gap? How do we make it so that whatever you are born to do in this world, you can do and that you're not blocked from it because those resources are for other people.
- [04:47]
Host
I love that. And one of the questions I was going to ask you, and I think it's perfect timing because I know you're a person of action, and I know the companies and organizations that you work with and even the individuals that you mentor. Action is part of what you do, right? So how do you get organizations and people to go from talking about things to actually doing the things that matter?
- [05:11]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Oh, such a good question. Well, one, I expect people to have the disposition to do it right. So I have a little filter. I'm not going to work with you if I don't believe that you are ready to do the work. And so we have to have a lot of conversations about the sacrifices it's going to make, the sacrifices you're going to have to make, the challenges you're going to confront. I. So, you know, I vet my clients. I have, I'm very privileged that I'm able to choose my clients as opposed to, you know, really having to struggle to find folks. And when it comes to mentorship, even I, I give every young person who comes to me and asks for help an assignment. The first thing they have to do is complete a set of actions and if they do it, great, then we can get up and running. If they don't do it, then often they know well enough not to call me back. I don't hear from you again because I expect if I'm going to invest time and energy, it's going to result in something and the same thing, even though my clients are paying me, they're paying me to get movement and so they have to want to do it. The other thing is being able to help people see the pathway. Right? The folks I work with are trying to solve some pretty big problems. And it's hard to imagine how any one person or any organization can really have an impact on some of these things. But I had a professor in grad school. Her name was Gloria Ladson Billings. She's an amazing scholar, education scholar. And in our research methods class, she was basically teaching us what it meant to become an academic. She said that we have big dreams and big visions, but what we need to recognize is that in our lifetime, in the span of our humanity, we may only be able to make one brushstroke on a huger canvas. But we have to make sure that our brushstroke is the right brushstroke and the best brush. Right brushstroke and best brushstroke for us. It's so funny. Say that like five times really fast, but yes, so and so. That's what I believe. We have to figure out what our contribution is to solving the big problems.
- [07:40]
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- [08:57]
Host
Yep, totally agree. You know, I know that you are a big proponent of self reflection. What role does self reflection play in becoming like an effective, an effective leader, an effective purpose for others?
- [09:16]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Reflective practice is important for everybody, every profession, if you want to get better. Because if you're spending all of your time just doing, doing, doing, doing, then you could just be spinning your wheels. You may not actually be doing anything of any real value. It's important to step back and think about what worked, what didn't work, why. And it's a critical part of emotional intelligence too, to be able to really do some thinking and digging into your own motivations and your own interactions with other people to determine how could this have gone better. Because if we don't start with ourselves, if we're not reflective of ourselves, then we're really just out there judging what other people do. That doesn't help us either.
- [10:01]
Host
No, I totally agree. And I'm glad that you brought up emotional intelligence. Like to me that's been, I'd say over the last three years one of the biggest shifts that I've had corporate leaders going through. Right. Like if you can't self reflect, like gone are the days where you need to have the immediate answer. I think now is the time where you really need to make sure that your response is a lasting response and an impactful response. Not just the buck stops with me approach. Right. I talk about the shifts between the 90s to the early 2000s to today. And emotional intelligence for me is the biggest proponent of everything that leadership should center around.
- [10:41]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I wonder if it was ever a good thing to have people just saying, I've got all the answers. Because they never did. They never had all the answers. And I wonder again, on this issue of all of humanity and everything we're capable of, what we lost with that leadership model, what was it that was, who were the people who were in that room who had better answers and the person didn't have enough ego, enough emotional self awareness to say, I don't know, what do you think?
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Host
Yeah, I don't know. And then also, I don't agree.
- [11:14]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Right.
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Host
Like think about, I always talk to my mom now about growing up. The difference between her raising me and like, me raising my kids was I had the Internet where things had to be real. Right. Like, I couldn't just say something and it not be researched and just told. Even from a leadership perspective, you know, with me coming through the leadership ranks in the late 90s, early 2000s, you kind of took somebody's word as their word. And then all of a sudden it's like, wait a second, that actually wasn't true. That event didn't happen the way that it was told. Or, you know, this was more of a myth than it was actuality. So I think, I do think this information era that we're in has definitely helped, or I shouldn't say has helped because a lot of people need the help, but it should help people with that aspect of it's okay to not have all the answers or to know the right thing to do. If you can go get the source for that.
- [12:10]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I'm also going to say, just a little secret here. Tell everyone who's watching. If you only talk about the things you know, people think you're really smart because when they fact check you, everything you say is true. Like, you're always. So if you don't talk about stuff you don't know anything about, people are like, you know that, you know, she's real smart. Like she really knows what she's talking about. Yes. Because she only talks about what she knows.
- [12:36]
Host
Hey, that's. I say the same thing to speakers. Right. If you're going to be a speaker, make it real. Don't take someone else's frameworks or their thoughts and then try to make it yours. Because there's going to be a moment where you have to answer questions and you're going to look a little foolish if you're not talking about the things that you know.
- [12:52]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Yes.
- [12:53]
Host
Yeah, yeah. So another thing that I'm really proud of you for is you have led the spark of having tough conversations about equity. Right. What's like a framework or practice that you use to guide leaders or to guide organizations through those tough conversations.
- [13:14]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Can I go back a little bit to where?
- [13:16]
Host
You sure can.
- [13:17]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
So I used to be a professor of education and I taught teachers and superintendents and principals, and I taught what was called the social foundations courses. So history, sociology, philosophy of education, that kind of thing. And when I taught the social issues classes where we talked about race, my students were white. Almost all my students were white. I taught in West Virginia, and I would always start topics about race and education in Talking about white identity, I started with them, and I feel like that is the thing that has really carried all the way through in all of my work, particularly when I work with white leaders. I start with them because we. Whiteness, it doesn't. It's like it doesn't exist. Whiteness isn't a racial identity. Whiteness is just. It just is. And because we get to. Because people feel that way, it feels like you don't have to interrogate it. And so by starting with white identity and having people really get in and get a little uncomfortable with their own place in all of these systems, I really feel like I get a lot farther also because I do it with kindness, again, humanity and dignity. Core values of mine. I want for people to maintain their dignity. I also want for people to main. You know, be honest about what responsibility they have, to change things, what power they have. And so that's really. I think my special sauce is starting with people. Where. Who. With who the people are who are in power in these systems.
- [14:54]
Host
So for the viewer or listener right now, that's going through some type of challenge with inequity in their own spaces, whether that's home, community, employment, if they're the owner, the leader, whatever. What's like one actionable step that they can take.
- [15:17]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Can I. Can I say two?
- [15:19]
Host
You can give as many as you want.
- [15:21]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I'll give two. One. It's important to have real clarity about what, what you think should be. What is the vision for what equity looks like in the space you're in? Because otherwise you could end up flailing. So what is the thing? What is the ideal place? And then the next thing I would say is try to understand why things look the way they look. And I feel like answers emerge from that. Right, Answers emerge from that. Because you can look at the whys and say, well, I can't do anything about this, this, or this, but this is something. This is something I could do something about. So let me focus here. So I think that's it. Be clear about what your vision is and try to understand why things are the way they are, and then your next steps will rise up to meet you.
- [16:09]
Host
I love that. I love that we talked about you being a mentor. How important. It's kind of a facetious question because I know the answer, but how important is mentorship to you personally, and how important should it be for leaders that are out there today?
- [16:33]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
That's a really. That's an excellent question. Well, I. To be honest, I've benefited more from sponsorship than I have from mentorship in my life. Okay, let's talk about that Distinctions, right? So I have met. I've had people along the way who've offered me guidance, who've taught me things, but it's the people who have walked me up to the door, opened the door, gone in on the other side of the door, said, hey, this is my girl. She's coming through. Don't mess with her when she gets over here, and then come back and walked me through the door. That's like the sponsorship space. And I feel like when you're really trying to do big, big work, you need sponsorship. I think mentorship is the thing that helps to give you the courage. Mentorship helps to give you some frameworks. Mentorship lets you know that you're not alone. Sponsorship is the thing that really helps you get down the path.
- [17:35]
Host
Actually, I love that distinction and want to go deeper there. So. And it's getting me to think a little bit, right? Like, if I were to go back, yeah, mentorship, really important. But I think along with some of that mentorship in the same people was sponsorship. Right. So how does one go about on the receiving end of the sponsorship? Like, what. What should you be looking for from that type of sponsor sponsorship?
- [18:01]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
You know, one of the things is, in my experience, and. And I've talked to a lot of black women about this, actually, because many of us who've managed to make it very far, our sponsors have been white men, which is fascinating because that's where a lot of power is, like, just be real. And that you can't ask for. It's. I don't know anyone who's asked for a sponsor. I feel like in order to really get sponsorship, which is also an inequitable process, you really have to perform. So you have to have had the kind of mentorship, the kind of drive to show up and perform. But when that opportunity comes, when someone says, I see you, I want to do something to help you really take this next step. I want to. I want to take you to this meeting. I want to. I want you to, you know, go in this room and talk to these people. You have to do it, right? You have to do it. You can't hem and ha about it. Because much like the way that I approach guiding folks, I give them an assignment, right? And I would have to say, this is the first time I put those two things together that I've been given assignments. And when someone says, I want to help you, this is what you need to do, I go do it. Quickly, right? When do you need me to do this? When is it happening? I go do it. And it has benefited me greatly in this life when somebody has given me. Literally, we're going to this meeting. I want you to go with me and sit at this table with me. I mean, I know the at the table metaphor is. Is well worn, but literally, you're going into meetings and sitting at tables, right? Like, I'm going to. I'm at this table, and I'm backed up. Like, when someone asks a question and that person who's sponsoring me says, I think Adrian has some really good thoughts on this, you got to show up. You got to open your mouth. You got to show them what you got. And that translates into more and more opportunities.
- [20:03]
Host
No, I love that. And. And I think I'm going to start having more conversations around the sponsorship piece. You know, like, I talk about it without giving it the title that it deserves. But you're exactly right. Like, it's one thing to be a mentor, and I definitely believe in mentorship. Right. Like, I wouldn't be where I'm at without mentorship, like I said. But I do think that for people who are mentors, 50%, if not a little bit more of what you do should be around the sponsorship. So bring people into the rooms that you're walking into. Give them the seat at the table. Right? And then, like Dr. Adrian just said, and one of my. My mantras and my leadership principles, move the stool. Let them. Let them sit on their own. Right? Like, because that should be a part of your mentorship. Like, you should be mentoring them so that they're ready for the room. Right? But you have to bring them to the room to prove it. Because if not, maybe your mentorship isn't what you think it is.
- [20:59]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Let me tell you, I remember distinct distinctly in the last 10 years or so, I was asked to go represent someone who's kind of powerful in the city. And he was like, I can't go to this meeting. I need you to go to this meeting. And I was. I was like, okay. I mean, by that point, sure, I go to the meeting. So I go to the meeting, and I'm sitting at this table, and everyone is kind of looking like, whoa, like, you're. You're here, right? And asking me where he was. I. I was like, oh, he sent me. I'm representing him today. And the dynamic in the room, the palpable difference in the energy, I think it was just like, oh, we're gonna have. Oh, we're gonna have to deal with her now. You know, it was like all of a sudden I had real power because I had his power. And so that is. That is sponsorship. It is the thing where. And by sponsorship, I mean quite literally, you know, when a nascar, NASCAR or in kind of soccer, you see the names of the spa. Like, that is what it means when I show up someplace in a certain space, people know this person comes with this other person's authority. I. I have my own folks who I send out. And people know, oh, well, if. If she's here, then Adrian sent her, then we probably need to engage with her a certain way. Right. And so you take the power you have and you literally stamp those people with your power. And that is sponsorship. And eventually. Right. I don't like the. My sponsors. And earlier in my life, people don't know those people anymore. They gave me what I needed to get to this next step. I don't, you know, I. Their sponsorship is still known to me. It's not known to other people. But I couldn't have gotten where I am without them.
- [22:51]
Host
Totally agree. Totally agree. All right, Dr. Adrian. It's my favorite part of the show. You ready for your quick five?
- [22:57]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I am.
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Host
You sure?
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I think so.
- [23:00]
Host
Let's go. All right. So you're from Memphis, right. And you know, I've got family in Memphis, actually. I've got an uncle and aunt in Germantown. My cousins went to White Station out there. So your favorite Memphis mill is.
- [23:16]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
My favorite Memphis meal is vinegary collard greens pulled pork. But really well seasoned pulled pork. Because I don't really like sauce. I'm not a sauce person.
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Host
Okay.
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
And quite frankly, if you just stop there, I'm going to be happy. But if you want to add some cornbread to it, I would love that. And the vinegary collard greens need to have hominy.
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Host
Okay. I dig it. I dig it. Not the pulled pork, but I dig everything else. Give me some collards and green bean or collards and cornbread. I'm straight.
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Yeah. Well, my collars do also have pork fat in it. So you might want to like, if you're doing vegetarian or whatnot, you know, you can still do it with, you know, without all that.
- [24:08]
Host
Gotta pass. Gotta pass. Your favorite self care ritual.
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Oh, these days it's audiobooks.
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Host
Okay.
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
So I have gotten off social media here in, you know, towards the end of 2024, 2025, and I love to, you know, sit on my porch. I live in an arboretum essentially, and watch the birds and the critters. And listen to audiobooks.
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Host
Okay, so then that leads to quick number three. What's been a book that's recently transformed your thinking on leadership?
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Oh, wow. I don't know. Make. I've been reading mostly Romantasy novels these days.
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Host
Your favorite Romantasy novel, then.
- [25:00]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
So I'm not gonna lie. Although there is a great. There are some leadership lessons in this series. It's called the. It begins with the fourth wing. And one of the things that I. I really love about this is the fact that the main character has a disability, and there are lots of disability advocacy in the book. It's really beautiful. And that. It's just the idea that no matter what you. How you show up on this planet, if there's a calling for you, if there's something that's meant for you, no matter what other people think, you're going to do it. And you are. And you. If you are meant to lead, you will do it.
- [25:35]
Host
Okay, I like that. I like that. Who's been the most inspiring person you've either worked with or learned from?
- [25:44]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
This is tricky, because everybody's gonna see this.
- [25:47]
Host
Yeah. That's why it's the hot five.
- [25:49]
Mick
I know.
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I know. Most inspiring. I thought I was ready. I'm not ready. I'll say. There's a woman named Marianne Orquilla. She is a founder of the center for Creative.
- [26:08]
Host
The.
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Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Not. Center for. The center for Community Investment. She's a teacher of mine in the world of results, work, and what I do. And she's the only person I've ever met in a training environment who I was. She. She wasn't intimidating. I was intimidated. I was intimidated. And I was just like. I didn't. It was such a foreign feeling. I didn't know what it was. But she's such a big thinker, and she really pushes me. And I learned something from her every time I talked with her, every time I talk with her. So, Mariana, Love it.
- [26:46]
Host
I love it. What? Final question. What's one word that captures your mission?
- [26:54]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Humanity.
- [26:57]
Host
I love it. I love it. Dr. Adrian, I know you were so busy. You are a world traveler. Always have things going on. So I appreciate your time today. What. What is new with you? What's one thing you want people to know? And then where can we follow and find you?
- [27:14]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
Yes. So I am really digging in on supporting white men in business leadership who want to focus on racial equity. That is my. I'm really ramping up that work, and I'll be starting a consumer research project this summer to really get a sense of what's going on with them, where they're struggling and what they need. So I'm excited to dig into that. People can find me at Standpoint Consulting, literally the symbol Standpoint Consulting, just about, you know, what is that? LinkedIn, Instagram. And you can also just look for me. Adrian Johnson dash Williams on LinkedIn. And I think it's also Dr. A.J.W.
- [27:59]
Host
I love it. Dr. Adrian, thank you so much for your time. Truly a blessing to hear from you. And another conversation we should have again too.
- [28:08]
Dr. Adrienne Johnson Williams
I would love to. This has been very lovely. Thank you for having me.
- [28:11]
Host
You got it. And to all the viewers and listeners, remember your because is your superpower. Go unleash it.
- [28:19]
Mick
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged. If today hits you hard, then imagine what's next. Be sure to subscribe, rate and share this with someone who needs it. And most of all, make a plan and take action because the next level is already waiting for you. Have a question or insight to share? Send us an email to hello@nickunplugged.com until next time, ask yourself how you can step up.