← Mick Unplugged
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- [00:00]
Jonathan Capehart
Believe in yourself. You know Lena Horne, when she's singing that song and you know it's a great song and then you start listening to the words and you start, I started internalizing them. And when I feel, there have been moments when I have felt low and I'll put that on and there's just something so uplifting about it.
- [00:27]
Mick
Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the one podcast for self improvement, leadership and relentless growth. No fluff, no filters, just hard hitting truths, unstoppable strategies, and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits? Let's go.
- [00:52]
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of MC Unplugged. And today we have a bucket list conversation for me, someone who's been a blueprint for some of the things that I've done in my podcast journey. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, a fearless truth teller on MSNBC, and a trusted voice shaping national conversations. His work doesn't just report the culture, it moves it forward. Get ready for an amazing conversation with the brilliant, the courageous, the unapologetic, my blueprint, Mr. Jonathan Capehart. Jonathan, how are you doing today, brother?
- [01:26]
Jonathan Capehart
I am great. And Mick, I have to tell you, I'm just, I'm blown away by that, by that introduction. No one has ever told me that I was their blueprint. And you're reading the book, you know, and I hope you understand just like what an honor that is to, to hear and to hear from you. So thank you very much. I'm thrilled to be here.
- [01:53]
Mick
Well, the thanks is all to you. And we're going to get to the book in a second, man. Because it is page turning, it is reflective and it is you. And that's why I love it, man. But one of the things that I love to ask my guests and my special guests on Make Unplugged is about your because that thing that's deeper than your why. You know, Simon Sinek said start with why. And I believe that. But then I also believe that you're fueled by your because, that deeper purpose, that why behind the why. So if I were to say, Mr. Jonathan Capehart, what's your because? Why do you keep doing the thing that you do so brilliantly?
- [02:35]
Jonathan Capehart
I think my because is because this is what I've always wanted to do. Because what I want to do is about telling other people's stories about getting to the truth of things. Because I want to chronicle what's happening, because I understand that things are not static. So because I write something, because I write something Today doesn't mean that facts might change and therefore I might have to revisit, because my audience comes to me because they see me as someone who they can trust. So my. I love this question. I think my because is about getting at the truth. I think I'm still that naive kid who was taught right from wrong, good from bad, truthful truth versus lies. And I still believe that, you know, the lies should be exposed, the bad should be exposed, but so should the good. So should those stories about, you know, people and things and issues that either people really care about, or more importantly, that they should care about and they might not know about.
- [04:06]
Mick
Yeah, it's amazing. And all of those things that you literally just said you're because is why you are my. My blueprint. And here's what I want to tell you. Looking you in the eye and. And what made you different for me, you know, starting a podcast a year and a half ago, something I did not want to do. I started my podcast literally just to create YouTube content, right? And then Les Brown is one of my mentors and was like, no, you really should go all in. Damon Johnson, mentor, was like, you should go all in. So then I started looking at other people, not to mimic people, but just to understand what podcasting was about and what I started realizing. And there's a lot of podcasters, I'm going to hurt their feelings, but it was all superficial. I was hearing stories I already knew, right? Like, I wasn't gaining much. There was not a lot of insight. And so then I just said, you know what? One of the people that I listen to on TV is Jonathan Capehart, because he draws people in, right? Like, he's going to get to what you call the truth. He's going to go to a deeper story, a more connected story. And I think that you're able to do that because of the last thing I said, your connection, like, you really connect with people. You connect with the story, and you're able to bring things out that people just don't normally see, right? Like, again, what's going on in the world today, everybody can report it, everybody can talk about it, but you bring the story to life because there's an energy inside of you that you can create and connect the dots. And that's why you were my blueprint. Like, you taught me how to, hey, Mick, take your time. Understand and really connect with people. Because when there's genuine connection, right, the story's gonna live, and the story's naturally gonna come out. I don't need A script of questions. I asked Jonathan about his because. And I hear that story and now that leads me to where I want to go. Nothing scripted, there's nothing pre planned. And I have to thank you for that, man, because you showed me how to do that.
- [06:05]
Jonathan Capehart
Oh, wow. Well, thank you. At the root of that, that connection you're talking about is curiosity.
- [06:13]
Mick
Yeah.
- [06:14]
Jonathan Capehart
You have to be in these jobs, in these roles, especially as a podcaster, because we're in people's ears. It's one of the most intimate experiences that a person can have. And so because it's so personal and so intimate, you know, being curious about the other person or being curious about the subject, and, you know, I will have some preset questions just as a safety net, but if someone says something that is interesting, I'm a go there.
- [06:51]
Mick
Exactly.
- [06:52]
Jonathan Capehart
I'm totally going to go there because that is what makes it interesting. And also because we're doing this face to face, you know, that it's also a matter of not so much of what the person is saying, but how they're saying it. If you notice that as they're saying something, that there's a twitch or, or suddenly their eyes start glistening. As soon as I see that, as soon as I hear the quiver in the voice, to me, just on a human level, I think, what's that about? Let me ask what that's about. And I have seen in real time interviews that started out sort of kind of cold and dry, like the interviewee is just, oh, my God, here's another interview with another person. And so I'm just going to get through this. But it, it, you could just feel the tenor and tone and move, mood of the conversation change when I probe that emotion that I'm getting from that person, and it's a completely new conversation. Suddenly that person is alive and they want to talk more. And suddenly you realize, oh, well, we're out of time. Right. That is the beauty of sitting across from another person and talking to them about what it is that they've written or the policy that they've proposed or the art that they've created. The interview is not about me, it's about them. And that's what makes it so much fun.
- [08:30]
Mick
And that was the other thing that I picked up from you is, especially from a podcast perspective, no one wants to hear Mick talk for 30, 45 minutes, right? It has to be about the guests. And so I make sure that I do a really good job of honoring the guest and really highlighting the things that they want to do. And again, I thank you for that because you taught me those things, man. You really did. So I want to know, like, hearing this, like, when did you know that this was a gift that you had? And I don't know if you know it's a gift. I'm going to tell you it's a gift. When did you know that this was what you were destined to be doing? Wow.
- [09:09]
Jonathan Capehart
I, I, you know, I don't know. I don't. It's easy for me to pinpoint when I knew I wanted to be a journalist, when you know that first, that very first step that put me on this journey. I know you've read it when those moments were. But in terms of understanding what you call this, this gift, maybe it was, I mean, it had to have been within the last 10 years. Maybe. I mean, I started the podcast, my podcast at the Washington Post in 2016, and that was an outgrowth of live events that I was doing and understanding how much I love doing live events. One, because you can see the person face to face, but then the interaction with the audience, you know, trying to come up with ways to not only pull the interviewee in, but to also pull the audience in and try to figure out ways to get a reaction from them that will also be part of the dynamic. I mean, I don't know when I realized that, but I do know that at some point.
- [10:25]
Mick
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- [11:57]
Jonathan Capehart
You know, Mick, I remember once I was at a very. I was at a low point, you know, during, during my career. And I think this was around either just before the pandemic or during the pandemic. And I was just feeling funky and feeling like I was doing all these things and nothing was just. Nothing was gelling. And I was in the shower and suddenly I just said out loud, I am damn good at what I do. And it was just this. I don't know what compelled me to say it.
- [12:37]
Mick
Yeah.
- [12:37]
Jonathan Capehart
But this much I know, Mick, and I'm glad you asked me this question. The moment I said that out loud to myself in the privacy of my own shower is when everything changed. Literally everything changed. It's when more live events started coming. It's when I started doing more things with Washington Post live. It's when I started doing more things on msnbc. It's when everything started clicking because suddenly I was not keeping this to myself. I said it out loud, I gave it agency. And I allowed myself by saying that out loud, I allowed myself to believe in myself. And I noticed that once I did it, I stood up straighter, my shoulders were back. And conversations I had with people from that moment on were not about, oh, please let me do this, or you know, sure. It was like, no, I want to do this. This is how I work. This is how. I mean, I understand you've got your thing that you want me to do this. This is how I do it. And I guarantee you this is gonna be terrific. Trust me.
- [13:59]
Mick
Absolutely. I totally am a believer in self affirmations, positive affirmations. Because we're going to go through so much in a given week, a given month, some people, in a given day, Right. That if you don't believe in yourself, it's going to be harder for other people to believe in you. And I know that that's also something that is almost like a pillar of core value for you too, is that. That self belief, that courage, the being able to, to, I don't want to say take a risk, Right. But to believe that you're taking steps in the right direction. Right. Like reading this book and we're going to go there in a moment. Like, I see all of who you are in this book, man. And it's just amazing. Totally.
- [14:44]
Jonathan Capehart
You know, Mick as is. You were talking and in this part of the conversation, do you know the Wiz?
- [14:50]
Mick
Yeah.
- [14:50]
Jonathan Capehart
The Diana Ross version with Michael Jackson, the movie.
- [14:54]
Mick
Yeah. He's on down the road.
- [14:56]
Jonathan Capehart
Right. Well, there's another song in there that is one of my favorites and when I listen to gets me here because it is a mantra and it is Believe in yourself. Lena Horne, when she's singing that song and it's a great song. And then you start listening to the words and you start. I started internalizing them. And when I fear have been moments when I have felt low and I'll put that on and there's just something so uplifting about it. Reassuring. And then when you follow it with Diana Ross singing Home, well, I'm a blubbery mess after that. But to me, it is the power of those words and that art that again, you are absolutely right. If you don't believe in yourself, you're not going to be able to do anything. Or as RuPaul says, if you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you going to love somebody else? It's all mixed in, right?
- [16:10]
Mick
Absolutely. And I think that's the perfect segue to the books. I'm going to hold it up for all the viewers. Yet here I am. Lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home Segueing from the song from Diana Ross. Right. So I got a copy of the book. Your team sent me a copy. And I was frozen just the title in and of itself, yet here I am. I was like, oh, we're going to church. Right. Because, you know, I knew you spent some time in the Carolinas. I live in the Carolinas now. You know what church is like down here. And yet here I am. I was like, there is a sermon in this title. And then I opened the book and we start going there, man. So, like, my first question for you about the book is more of talk to us about the. Because of the book. Like, why did you say, I've got to write this memoir, I've got to write this book? Like, people need to know this. Like, what was your passion behind saying, I'm going to put pen to paper?
- [17:11]
Jonathan Capehart
So during the first Trump administration, things were not great in the country. And as an opinion writer who writes about national politics, it was distressing, dismaying what was happening to the country. And I needed a break. And I decided all these stories in my head from my summers down south In North Carolina, 12 summers I spent with my maternal grandparents. My maternal grandmother was A Jehovah's Witness. So going to Catholic school in the north and then coming down south and going witnessing with my Jehovah's Witness grandmother. And the things that I saw and this things that I learned and the people I met, those stories stayed with me. They just churned in my head. And I thought, this one particular weekend in 2017, all right, now's the time to stop thinking about these and just getting them down on paper or in pixels on the computer screen. And I spent all weekend just writing what became the down south chapter, which in the book has been split up into two or three separate chapters. But I sent the chapters to a bunch of people. But three people in particular were very encouraging. Tamron Hall, April Ryan, and Joy Reid. And they all said, wow, you have a story to tell. Keep going. April Ryan, in particular, was relentless, just like, are you still writing? You have to tell your story. People need to know your story. And so I kept going. And there are three authors along the way who really were my sort of guardian angels in all this. In 1999, 2000, I read Kathryn Graham's memoir, Personal History. Katherine Graham was the owner publisher of the Washington Post, the most powerful woman in journalism, one of the most powerful people in the country. And yet she wrote this memoir that was so revealing, so profound, personal, so raw and honest and open. I thought, whoa, this powerful woman put all her stuff out there for us to read.
- [19:37]
Mick
Yeah.
- [19:38]
Jonathan Capehart
And for us to take in. And I thought, I like this. This is the kind of memoir I want to read. Fast forward 20 years. I read Charles Blow's memoir, Fire Shut up in My Bones Again, raw, open, honest, introspective. And it showed me where the passion came from in Charles's columns for the New York Times. So now you have these two diametrically opposed people. One gay, one straight, one black, one white, one male, one female, one in, you know, in the later end of her. Of her career in life. The other one sort of smack in. In the middle. And I thought, if ever I write a book, that's my guide. And then when I started writing, my friend Richie Jackson, who had just finished writing his book Gay Like Me, a letter from a father to his son. He said to me, jonathan, remember, put yourself on every page. You have to put yourself on every page for the reader. And so, as I wrote, it was important for me that I had these stories to tell. I had these lessons that I've learned in my life that I wanted to share with the reader. But I also felt that I needed to Be open and honest and raw about my fail, my failures and shortcomings, as I was about, or am about my triumphs. But it's the failures and shortcomings where all the big lessons come in. And so I couldn't. I mean, there's a chapter with a title that's two expletives, like it's bleeped out.
- [21:27]
Mick
Yep.
- [21:28]
Jonathan Capehart
But it is a five year period where everything went, just went to hell. Personal relationships, professional relationships. And it was bad.
- [21:39]
Mick
Yeah.
- [21:39]
Jonathan Capehart
But I share all that because you know what, Mick? People see me on television. People fill in the holes, right. They come up with, oh, this must be his life story. Because I see this and I hear this and so I think I know. I think I know him. I think I can peg him. Usually critics absolutely think they know who I am. And this book is filling in all those holes, especially for those folks who think, oh, you think you know me? Oh, get ready. Did you know I pumped gas for two summers at a Sunoco station in Wildwood, New Jersey? Did you know I got so jammed up in a, in a job that I had to, you know, quickly figure out a departure? I mean, I've been, I have been through some things and you need to know this, but I want to share this because no matter who you are, I am certain that I have written something here that you have either gone through or are going through or might go through or know someone who's. And I guess I view myself in service in a lot of ways. And if I've learned this lesson, I feel duty bound to share. Here's what I learned. Here are my observations. And so if you find yourself in this situation, here's how I went through it and see how what I did and what I thought and what I went through matches or not what you're going through and maybe it can help.
- [23:32]
Mick
I love it. Yet here I am. Right? Yet here I am. You know, one of the things that I did not know about you that you talk about a little bit in the book was like, you were told you had a low iq, right? Like, like talk to us about that and then how obviously that that isn't true and that wasn't true, but just talk to us a little bit about that. Like being labeled. Because one of the things that. And I have family members, my sister, sister in law are both educators and it's not them, but I think the education system labels people before society and the world labels people. Right. So tell us a little bit about that.
- [24:13]
Jonathan Capehart
Well, shoot. Society labels us, meaning African Americans, and certainly black men and boys before we even had a chance to even know who we are. So, you know, we moved from Newark, predominantly black city, to North Plainfield, New Jersey, and then Hazlett, New Jersey, where I went, where I became, like, the. The only one in a classroom. And my mother, being a daughter of the Jim Crow south, came up north. She said to me on the first day of school in North Plainfield and then in Hazlett, she said to me, listen, you are not taking vocational education. They will push us into those. You are taking college prep classes, and if anyone tries to do otherwise, you let me know and I will go to the school. So there's that. Then as I write in the book, we had these weeks where it was like, no instruction. Today we're going to do these tests and, oh, my God, these tests with the number two pencil and those ovals so tiny that I got stressed out. Like, I'm going to make sure that this whole oval, because I want to make sure this answer counts, right? So the guidance counselor, I have a meeting with him, and I want to talk about, you know, how should I be thinking about college and am I taking all the right courses? And he says to me, pulls out this paper, and he says, you see that number there? That. That's your iq? And I don't. I don't even know what the number was. And I was like, okay. And he said, I'm confused because that's a low iq, yet your coursework is outstanding. I don't understand how that is. And so this says, you will not be going to college. And I thought, oh, what I took from that, though. But he said, but your coursework is great. So not sure what the discrepancy is. Well, I know what the discrepancy is now. I don't test well, right? You tell me this is a life or death test, and I freeze up, right? There's this. Just don't tell me it's a life or death test. I would do better on a pop quiz than I would on one of those standardized tests with the tiny ovals, right? And so what that showed me was in high. Of course, in hindsight, in retrospect, that they were gearing up to track me in a different way. And when I got to high school, when I went to Raritan High School, they didn't put me in vocational ed classes, but they did my homeroom. The place I went to every morning to start my day was in the shop, and that was the place in school. Then that was known as the hangout in home of the kids not going to college, the burnouts, the troublemakers. And I sat in this room. All my friends were in other classrooms, homerooms, with the desk that today you have to kind of squeeze in. Can't believe we actually sat in these little desks. And when the bell went off, I ran out of that room as fast as I could to join my friends. But, yeah, that. And what's interesting, Mick, is when I read Michelle Obama's book Becoming. When I read Valerie Jarrett's book Finding My Voice, to read the similar experiences that they went through with this same thing with people telling them, well, you're not going to college or you're not going to Princeton, or you're not going to Harvard, or you. You won't be able to do that. And I thought this. I knew this happened, but I didn't know that it. It's so widespread that a former first lady of the United States, former senior advisor to the President of the United States, went through the same thing.
- [28:36]
Mick
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, Amazing. It's like full circle, man. And, you know, I told you offline, I'm on chapter 12, native New Yorker, and you got me with a line in there. You said, new York is like an Eminem. It's hard on the outside, soft on the inside. And I saw the line before I even got deeper into the chapter. And I called, like, two of my buddies. One, Kenny Anderson, former basketball player from New York. And I was like, kenny, I just heard the truth about New York, man. Y' all just hard on the outside, but soft on the inside. Give folks some context into your meaning of that, of hard on the outside, soft on the inside.
- [29:15]
Jonathan Capehart
So I didn't. I didn't come up with that analogy until I left New York, until I came to Washington. Because, you know, New Yorkers believe every word of that song. New York, New York, if I can make it there, I can make it anywhere. And I got to Washington, and Washington was like, no, you're not. It's just a completely different way of being here in Washington. And that got me reflecting about New York. New York's reputation is. It's harsh. New Yorkers are mean. The city is crazy. It's chaotic, it's dirty. It's all these things. And so people are intimidated by New York. New York, by design, intimidates people, But New York becomes home to those people who dare to engage it. And so with an Eminem, it's hard on the outside. And some people are like, oh, no, No, I can't do it. It's a great, it's a great way to screen out the serious from the tourists. And so the tourists, and by tourists, I mean the folks who actually are there as tourists. And then the people who come to New York, oh, I'm going to give it a try. And then, oh my God, this is so hard, I'm leaving. And then it's the people who decide, okay, I like M and Ms. Pop some in my mouth. Yeah, that hard shell is hard. But then I just broke the shell. All I had to do was try. And that's the beautiful thing about New York. All you have to do is try. And if you put your. Throw yourself into the crazy mix that is New York City, everybody's on top of each other. You've got the super wealthy, you've got the very poor, and they're all in the five boroughs, all trying to lead a successful life. However they define it. They are creative, they are go getters. They are busting their humps to live in that. This wildly chaotic, expensive city. And when you bite into, you get into this softness on the inside and you tool around and you start noticing patterns, you start noticing that actually this city of 8 million people is actually a series of small towns.
- [31:43]
Mick
Yeah.
- [31:43]
Jonathan Capehart
And you start figuring that out when you start mapping. Here's where I live, here's where I work. Here's where I go grocery shopping. Here's where I drop off my dry cleaning. Here's where I might go to school or go to the movie theater. And because of your routine, you start seeing some of the same people. You start noticing the patterns. New York City now isn't this big, unmanageable place. It is now this. You're small. You're small piece of the city that is your town. And the other beautiful thing about New York is no one really, no one knows. Like in Washington, it's all about what you do, where do you work, who do you work for. And in New York, I still have friends in New York City. I know they go someplace to work, but I don't know exactly what they do because our friendship is based on, you know, we might like the same movies or we like, might like the same restaurants, or you have these concentric circles of friends. And the beauty of New York is bringing people from the various circles together who might not know each other. And so that, to me, is why I love New York so much. The beauty of New York, and why I am perfectly fine with people being intimidated, intimidated by New York. Because not everybody. New York's not for everybody. I get that. But New York is for everybody who gives it a shot.
- [33:18]
Mick
I love it. You just gotta bite through the show. Gotta keep going, right?
- [33:22]
Jonathan Capehart
Gotta keep going. So easy.
- [33:24]
Mick
But I did also hear, just because you made it in New York doesn't mean you can make it everywhere. I want everybody to understand that, too. All my New Yorkers.
- [33:32]
Jonathan Capehart
Oh, yeah, Mick, you know how many New Yorkers I've been in Washington 18 years? You know how many New Yorkers I have seen move to Washington and then hightail it back to New York? Right back within two years, if not sooner. You know, during the Obama, when. When President Obama was first elected, I had a lot of people from New York, but other cities, they were told to call me to find out what New York was, what what Washington was like. And my question to them was always, did you like high school? Only one person of all the people who I asked that question said, yes. But everyone else said, oh, my God, I hated high school. And I said, well, buckle up, because you're not going to like Washington. This is a giant high school filled with the smartest, most aggressive people you have ever met. This is every college class president, varsity sports player, all these folks. This is where they come. And you just need. You need to be ready.
- [34:48]
Mick
It's funny you say that, because I told someone almost the same thing. I said, go back to your yearbook. And the most likely to succeed, the class president, the class clown. Like, that's what Washington, D.C. is. It is so funny you said that, because that's what I tell people about D.C. that's what I mean.
- [35:07]
Jonathan Capehart
Oh, yeah. No, it is absolutely, absolutely true.
- [35:11]
Mick
Wow. Well, Jonathan, I know you're very busy. The world has a lot going on that you need to go talk and write about today.
- [35:18]
Jonathan Capehart
Give me one more question. Mick, this is too much fun.
- [35:23]
Mick
One last question for you then. If you could spend a day with any person at any place, who would the person and where would the place be?
- [35:36]
Jonathan Capehart
Oh, wow. You know, the first name that popped into my head was me.
- [35:42]
Mick
That is so awesome. Okay, okay. Sorry.
- [35:46]
Jonathan Capehart
No. The first person that popped into my head was Michelle Obama. Okay? Now, I have spent time with her, but it's never been long enough. And what I would love to do is for the two of us to go to lunch. Wherever she wants to go. If she said Chicago, Washington, New York, Rome, Paris, I would go and just sit and talk. Yeah, that's what I would love to do.
- [36:21]
Mick
Amazing. Well, I think that should happen. I think that should Happen.
- [36:26]
Jonathan Capehart
I'mma ask.
- [36:28]
Mick
Hey, it's always a no until you ask. Right?
- [36:31]
Jonathan Capehart
Right.
- [36:32]
Mick
There you go. There you go. I also learned that from you. See? Look at that. Look at that. Well, Jonathan, where can everyone buy the book? Where do you want us to purchase it from?
- [36:41]
Jonathan Capehart
You can purchase it wherever books are sold. But you know what? If you have a local bookstore, support the local bookstore. Go into the local bookstore, ask them if they have it. If they don't have it, ask them to order it.
- [36:56]
Mick
There you go.
- [36:58]
Jonathan Capehart
And if you're in Here I am. You know where to go.
- [37:00]
Mick
There you go. Yeah, here I am. All right, Jonathan, where can people find and follow you?
- [37:05]
Jonathan Capehart
I am @kpartj on Instagram, on threads. I was gonna say Twitter, but don't go there. It's no fun, but yes, a partj.
- [37:20]
Mick
A partj. I'll make sure I have links to all of that there. Jonathan, again, I just personally wanna thank you for all that you do, all that you stand for, and the legacy that I know you're continuing to build. I appreciate you, brother Nick.
- [37:36]
Jonathan Capehart
You honor me with those words. Thank you so much for. For inviting me to come on your podcast and just thank you.
- [37:47]
Mick
You got it. You got it, brother. And for all the viewers and listeners, remember your. Because is your superpower. Go unleash it.
- [37:57]
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged. If today hits you hard, then imagine what's next. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and share this with someone who needs it. And most of all, make a plan and take action, because the next level is already waiting for you. Have a question or insight to share, Send us an email to hellocunplugged.com until next time, ask yourself how you can step up.