A (2:55)

Ah, thanks, man. I appreciate that. I try to be around good people. I try to be around really good, hard working, regular people that are fun to be around. And everywhere I've gone, if we manage to coalesce a group of fun, hard working, regular people, like extraordinary things happen. When I was in New York working on the terrorist task force, you know, the hard working, regular guys, we found each other. And terrorism and New York's a big enough place, like it was the same thing. The organized crime guys, white collar crime guys who, you know, whatever, the regular hard working guys got together, make extraordinary cases. You know, we made in terrorism, we made cases. They wrote books about it and they made movies about it. The organized crime guys did the same thing. If you get those regular people together, just have a ball. Just laugh at stupid stuff.

B (3:52)

Yeah.

A (3:53)

Don't take themselves too seriously. Work like crazy. And then you get a chance to do extraordinary stuff. That's fun.

B (3:59)

Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about this journey you've had, though. Not everyone can say they were the number one rated FBI hostage negotiator of all times. We can. There's situations that you've seen that not even the elite have seen, but you always focus on the mission at hand. And I remember talking to you and you were like, the mission is the mission until the mission changes. Right?

A (4:27)

Yeah.

B (4:28)

Talk to us about how you got into hostage negotiation. Yeah.

A (4:34)

It was just one thing out of left field after another. Like I never even imagined being a hostage negotiator. It wasn't a goal. Being an FBI agent wasn't even a goal. Kind of found myself there by the circumstances lined up. When I applied for federal law enforcement. I originally applied for a Secret Service because that's what I heard about.

B (4:55)

And.

A (4:55)

And I was told Secret Service travel all over the world. I'm like, wow, that's cool. Why? I grew up in Iowa. It was a big deal. Going to another state, like crossing a river into Illinois, that was a big deal. That was a big deal. So traveling and Secret Service wasn't hiring. HPI was put on my application. I was slave to go to the SWAT team on a police department. Just before I left, if the bureau would have delayed. If the bureau would have delayed by three weeks hiring me, I'd have stayed with PD because I was two weeks away from going to the SWAT team. Got a SWAT team in Pittsburgh and I remember an exercise we did, you know, we. It was this supposed bad guy takeover of nuclear facility. We got negotiators inside. And I can remember being on the outside, on a swat, knowing that we had somebody in there that was supposedly negotiate. And just like, okay, somebody's talking to him on the phone. That's negotiator. You know what calls that guy, though? His job is to buy us time as we get ready to assault. So absolutely oblivious to what it was about. And then had multiple knee injuries and decided, well, I'll go be a negotiator instead of continuing to tear my knee apart. Swan. I didn't figure it'd be hard at all. And I didn't imagine how rewarding it would be. And I was lucky enough I couldn't get on, so I volunteered on suicide hotline. Then on the hotline, I was astonished at the magic of emotional intelligence, the magic of empathy. Just astonishing. And so that paved the way for me to become a negotiator. And then I was lucky enough I was involved in a really rare event that turned out really well. Bank robbery with hostages. Which almost never happens. You know, the movies make it seem like it happens every day in the old or in la. Bank robberies happen every day. They just don't have hostages. Bad guys know the police run away and they get out of there. So catching somebody on the inside, like, it. It hadn't happened in New York City for 20 years.

B (7:06)

Oh, wow.

A (7:07)

When it. When on the one that I was on, that's how rare they are. Okay, so. And it turned out really well. It's combined effort. FBI, nypd, blended negotiation team. First bad guy to surrender, surrender to me personally, outside the back. And so then I. FBI hostage negotiators. Part of our protocol of staying good is teaching. If you're not doing something, even if you're doing it on a regular basis, you want to really immerse yourself, try to teach it. Yeah, because you're going to get called out. I mean, you really got to say the hell out of it. You got. And you're going to get called out. So I started teaching at Chase bank, all over the place. And it was a lot of fun. And because I like teaching, I like doing it, it just. I can continue to pursue it. I was in the right place, right time. A lot of times. I worked my ass off. And working your ass off really determines whether or not you're in the right place, right time.

B (8:14)

There you go. I totally agree with that. You know, when we were in Chicago, my cousin Ramy Asked you a question of if you had to do it all over again, what would you tell the younger version of Chris Voss? And you said, I tell him to be nicer.

A (8:31)

Right.

B (8:33)

Tell us about what that means.

A (8:38)

All right, so there's how you approach conflict. There's basically three types we believe, I believe my team believes that this is true. And we have the anecdotally, we've got enough data to sort of back it up, even though we haven't rigorously tested goal. So you approach the conflict approach is fight, flight, make friends, assertive analyst to come caveman responds to threat. Fight it, make friends with it, run for it. And the world really does pretty much split evenly into thirds. Doesn't matter, gender, ethnicity, religion, nothing. It's kind of a caveman wireman. So as an assertive, natural born assertive, I'll tend to be too blocked, too direct. And so I wouldn't change sticking to my values or what I stood up for, what I believed in. I'd just be nicer about the way that I express. I'd be kinder, if you will, nicer, friendlier, you know, whatever word works. I always believed in. You need to know where I'm coming from. And certus primary currency is respect. If you respect me, we could probably make a D. Even if you don't give me the deal that I originally wanted, if you treat me with respect, I'm going to be enormously collaborative. And one of the poster children for assertives these days that everybody knows, of course, is Trump. Jeff Bezos also, in my view, is an assertive look at how collaborative Donald Trump is when the world's leaders show up the White House to treat him with respect. He's basically dismissive of almost every European leader in his first round, unhappy with NATO for legitimate reasons, we're paying their bills and their badmouth us. And so he goes and meets them in meetings and he goes to Europe and, you know, they're not happy with the way that they treat him. But watch what happens when somebody shows up to meet him in person and treats them with respect.

B (10:56)

You know, every morning before I walk into a meeting, before I hit record on the podcast, before I lead a team, I start with one scoop AG1, because leadership starts with energy, clarity, and consistency. And that's exactly what AG1 gives me, a simple foundational habit that keeps me one scoop ahead of the chaos. It's not another supplement sitting on the shelf. It's a microhabit that sets the tone for my day. Inside that one scoop superfoods B vitamins, antioxidants, probiotics, and functional mushrooms that support your energy, focus and overall wellness, especially in seasons like this. Travel, long days and short nights. AG1 keeps me grounded. I don't chase health anymore. I lead it. If you've been looking for something to help you stay consistent, stay fueled, and stay ready, AG1 is that move. I use it. You should too. Head to drinkag1.com Mick to get a free welcome kit with an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 when you first subscribe. That's drinkag1.com Mick because great leaders don't just prepare for the day, they prepare their body for it. You know, people always ask how I juggle everything. The podcast, the book, the events, the coaching, and the team. Well, here's the truth. I don't do it alone. I've got a new teammate. My Notion agent. When I'm prepping for an episode of MC Unplugged, it pulls every note, every bio, every question I've ever written, organizes it into my show template, and even suggests new angles based on past interviews. And it's like having a producer who knows exactly how I think, only faster. Notion brings all your notes, docs and projects into one connected space that just works. It's seamless, flexible, powerful, and actually fun to use. With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work. And now with Notion Agent, your AI doesn't just help with work, it. It finishes it. I still make the decisions, but now the heavy lifting done. Try Notion with notion agent@notion.com Mick that's all lowercase notion.com Mick to try our new AI teammate notion agent today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show notion.com Mick how enormously collaborative he is.

A (13:35)

Yeah. And it's taken a long time to come to accept that. But look what just happened in the White House. You know, he goes and he meets Putin in Russia. The media puts all this span. You know, Donald Trump's leading a direction of Putin. He's going to give Ukraine away.

B (13:53)

Yeah.

A (13:54)

Russia's influence. But Putin's respected him enough to meet him in person. And so the other European leaders, some of them, you know, they. Who is it? The. The guy from Finland. And Finland has a prime minister, I think. Yeah. Who's got to be a wacky guy, because one of the quotes I read where he said, I am, I finished my birth Southern, by the grace of God, because he went to college right in the South. Right, right. And he plays golf with Trump. But he plays golf with Trump and Trump feels respected by him. So the guy's got influence. So the rest of the European leaders are like, ow, if we show up at the White House and we wear suits and we treat him with respect, he'll listen to us. Will these servants want to be treated with respect? When I left the bureau, the girl that I was dating at the time put together a, a going away party for me, surprise party. Because I would, I was at odds with the guy that I was working for at the time. And I kind of stormed out the door without saying goodbye.

B (15:02)

Not you.

A (15:04)

I just like, I'm out of here, I'm gone. Adios. I didn't even say adios. I just packed my. And I left. And so she was like, you know, I gotta, you need a, you need to go on away party. And when she put it together afterwards, she said, you know everybody. I try to contact everybody that you ever work with. And what I notice is every single person I spoke to told me how much they respected you. But what I also noticed is I don't remember any of them saying they liked you. And that had never been pointed out to me because respect was always my currency. You might not like me, but you're going to respect me. Right. And so then I wouldn't change how I did anything for me as an assertive. But I go back and I'd be nicer about it, I'd be kinder. I've heard other, other assertives that have learned that lesson. Most of them will, they'll use some term, they're be, be kinder, be nicer. A friend of mine in New York, Conrad Gomez, great dude, he says kind is the default game theory long term success option. Long term success strategy is kindness. So that's for me as an assertive. Now the other two types, gainless, super smart dudes, they need, they tend to come off as cold and distant. Yeah. So they, since they're not assertive, they just need to open up in a friendlier way. Accommodators, relationship hope based people, they need to be more assertive. My girlfriend is an accommodator. When I'm coaching her, I'm coaching her to be more assertive. So each type has a lesson that will enhance, add to enhance, don't change, enhance to make you better, which is not changing who you are. Right. My girlfriend's core values are solid. I don't want her to change her core values. I want her to Be clearer with the. With the people that she deals with.

B (17:18)

Okay.

A (17:19)

The analysts. I don't. I don't want the analysts change their core values. You think so hard about stuff. You don't. You're not cold, but you come off as cold, which interferes with people warming up to you. So that's a really long answer for my improvement is to be nicer, kinder, friendlier, unchanged. Just be nicer about how I did.

B (17:46)

No, I love that. I love that. So you talked about your girlfriend. I'm going to talk about my wife. Sorry, babe, is.

A (17:54)

My girlfriend is vision impaired, by the way.

B (17:57)

Really?

A (17:57)

No, I spit that shit. She's so much better looking than I.

B (18:03)

It almost made sense. Huh?

A (18:06)

Okay, that explains.

B (18:09)

So there's a book that sits on our coffee table at home. One book. The book is titled Never Split the Difference.

A (18:19)

I was getting out of here.

B (18:21)

You already know what happened.

A (18:22)

I thought it was going to be a book by Daymond John or something like that.

B (18:24)

I don't know. It's on one of the side tapes. It's on one of the side tapes. But my wife reads this book so much because she says I need to tap into your brain because I know there are moments in your name is a verb in our household where you're vossing me. I'm like, I'm bossing you. And then she'll slap me. Yeah, you just did it again. Smart girl. But never split the difference. It's deep on so many levels. Right. I get it. For leaders, it's my number one book. My team has to read it. You have to read that book within your first 90 days. I told you this week, your first 90 days of employment, you got to read the book. Because if you. If you don't read the book, if you don't understand the book, you're not going to fit into our culture. We have a Chris Voss culture at all of my companies. It's great for relationships. Yeah. It helps you start to understand people, the decisions they made, the choices that they decide upon. And I'm saying all this to say, when you were writing the book, did you know it was going to be that damn tight knit?

A (19:42)

No, no. But, you know, it's bad gift. It's been a gift. It's very gratifying. It's been a gift. I've been very happy with it. And I'll tell you the thing that I'm happiest most about it, to me, it's a proof of concept of human nature because the book's about collaboration with People trust long term relationships of trust where you collaborate. Both people do well and are happy and it sells well globally, which to me says everybody in the vast majority, not everybody in the world, but the vast majority of the world wants to collaborate. You know, we're not against each other, we're not at odds.

B (20:20)

The.

A (20:22)

Criticism of the legacy media is legit in that it's there to keep us divided. And many of the social algorithms are there to feed what makes us angry and continue to feed our anger if, if we're, if we, if we bite. And then even if we don't bite, it tries to get us to bite anyway. You know, I, I read, I read a lot of, I read a lot of reporting on President Trump, mostly because I'm trying to read between the lines to see what he actually said as opposed to what they're saying he said. And so because I read a lot of these, I get a fair amount of stuff fed to me. Can you believe President Trump said this? President Trump doubles down, you know, the inflammatory stuff because they're guessing that I want to be angry. I'm just trying to see what the la actually said, right? And so the, the, the majority of us don't want that. You know, the majority of us, more of us want to collaborate than not. It's a legacy media and social media is designed to keep us angry and at each other's throats.

B (21:39)

So true, so true, so powerful. And we agree on so much. Right? Like, I'm all about emotional intelligence when I speak to leaders. That's what I'm there with. You've got your empathetic leadership amongst many things. Why do you think leaders today are missing the poke on it?

A (22:03)

Because they don't see it around them. First of all, it's not in the media, it's not getting fed to them in entertainment, it's not in entertainment. You know, how are we picking up what social behaviors affect every movie and TV show? When somebody's down and upset, somebody looks at him and says, I know how you feel. I was the ones at the same place you ran. And the other person goes, oh my God, thank you. And I feel so much better. And in, in real life, when you say, as soon as the words I know how you feel start to come out of your mouth, the other person starts to withdraw. There are some people that teach communication called story steal it. And they're like, hey, you look, no, you don't know how I feel. And the circumstance you get ready to tell me about, it's got nothing to do with my circumstance, and you get ready to give me advice, and I don't want to hear. And so we see that in the media, but in, in. In movies and TVs, it works. So then actually when it does work, it's invisible. Like nobody knows what happened. And it's. I know how you feel stuff is this. This common ground nonsense. And so my latest example of white common ground is just at a wedding. Wendy and I had a wedding in Ireland recently. And talking to the pride at the end of the. The day of the wedding later on, and they have been. What they've been through. You know, they go all the way to Ireland to get married. Like a couple of days before they get married. The church tells them they can't get married in the church because she's Catholic. The annulment didn't come through on time. Catholic church is not going to let her walk in the door, get married. And so just a couple days before they got to switch churches.

B (23:57)

Wow.

A (23:58)

As if everything else didn't happen. And all the things, like a wedding to a man is like, look, I got to show up. I gotta stand in front of this. Some. Some religious guy. We're gonna say a couple words, then we're gonna. We're going. We're gonna go get drunk.

B (24:10)

Right?

A (24:11)

And they're gonna make me wear a tuxedo, which is uncomfortable. I don't want to do any of that. Wedding to a woman. It's. Women consistently say, I've been dreaming. I've been imagining this day for 15 years. Like, there ain't a man on earth that ever says that. Yeah. Well, maintained a state for 15 years.

B (24:30)

We'll tell you.

A (24:30)

We met 15 years ago. I was just trying to get a second date. And you're imagining getting married to me. Like it's so vastly different. Right, Right. So I'm talking to the bride, end of the day. What are the bride and groom got to do at the end of the day? They got to go. They got to walk around and say hello to everybody. They're exhausted. Like, they're unconscious on their feet. And they have an obligation. And this is my first conversation with it. So she walks up to me the next night after she's got a good night's sleep. We're in a hotel restaurant. She says, I don't know what you said to me last night.

C (25:02)

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A (26:32)

I just remember how good it made me feel. And she gives me this big hug. Now what I said to her the night before was all empathy. I said, you know, you've been through hell. You're here to celebrate a union of two families and a man that you married is there to have a part that she's got no idea. I said, you know, and I laid out to her every single thing that she went to through which is empathy. Now, I couldn't say I know what it's like to be a bride or I can't say I know how you feel because I once got married or like there ain't no way I know how she feels. You know, I've never been a bride. I've never been a bride's maid, never been a maid of honor. I never had her experience, but I laid it all out to her. And that's the magic of empathy because she didn't even know what I did. She didn't remember a single word that I said. 24 hours later, not knowing a word that I said, she walks up to me, she feels bonded to me. She walks up to me, she gives me this great big hug. And she says, I don't know. Whatever you said last night, it just made me feel so good. So your original question, why don't more leaders see that nobody sitting around us had any idea of the emotional reaction she was giving me. There was another young lady that was friend of the bike, right, sitting on this side of me. My girlfriend's on this side. There's a couple of other people sitting there. Absolutely nobody watching has the slightest idea that I'm hitting her with this wave of empathy, how she's connected to it. They just say, like, well, you know, he seemed appreciative. Quick conversation. And so that's why leaders often don't see it. Because when somebody does it in front of you, you have no idea what just happened.

B (28:35)

That's empathy. But that's also an example of the impact that I was talking about earlier that you have on people. And you're literally being yourself, right? Like, you're not trying to over empathize, right? You saw the moment, you saw the need, and you did what you were called to do in that moment without hesitation. That's best boss power. That is best freaking va.

A (29:01)

I, you know, well, it's. It's gratifying. It's. I'm a big believer in karma and I'm. I think the more of it's selfish. The more deposits I make at a karma bank, the more fun my life is.

B (29:21)

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. While I have you here, I can only ask you this question, and I'm kind of asking selfishly for me, but a lot of leaders truly don't understand negotiation. If I talk to a leader about negotiation, Fortune 1 or leader, their immediate thought goes to salary negotiation, right? Every time. And I'm like, that's probably 10 on the list. What about Tyler? What about effort? But people don't understand that those are things that you're also negotiating. So for the leaders that are out there, I'd love for you to take a moment and talk about why negotiation is important for a leader and what you miss when you don't do about.

A (30:12)

Because when you start talking about time and effort, where you're really negotiating with somebody is their future. Where's that time and effort going to take them and how painful is it going to be? Like all the emotional things, but you're really asking somebody to trust you with their future. And this trust is this, you know, this bond, this sort of imaginary bond to get somebody to trust you with their future. They gotta. They gotta. They have to feel that you understand what's important. Not that you agreed to it. Yeah. Or that you're aware of what they're afraid of or that you even appreciate. And so one of the things that I've been over just over the last few years, I've been trying to. My appreciation dividend has grown very high because I'm trying to remember on a regular basis to appreciate people as much as possible.

B (31:18)

Yeah.

A (31:20)

And I would have simply from the way that I was raised, I was just expected to do a good job. And you know, I, I, my father didn't show me a lot of appreciation. It was tremendous amount of love in my fate under. It was unquestioned that I was loved unconditionally by my parents. But the model, the modeling that was done for me, there wasn't a lot of appreciation. And so I just took it for being like, look, do your job, do what you're asked to do, do your job, have integrity, do all that stuff and just do it. Yeah. And so I've been guilty of expecting people to just do a good job most of my life. And now as I'm showing more appreciation for the little things, I'm getting people working hard and working longer hours and having, having more fun because even if they're cert, even if their future is uncertain, if I'm appreciating them in a moment, they're there for us. And so all these little intangibles that were not modeled for me. Well, the vast majority of my life, I always had a lot of support. I was always lucky enough to have a tremendous amount of support from people, from people and the bureau, vast majority of the people I worked for gave me massive amounts of support, not a lot of appreciation. And so the success was supposed to be its own reward, doing a good job. And in many cases it was. But that was for me personally. I'm very hard working. I believe in working really, really, really hard. I don't think, I think expectations leaders should think about what do I expect, what kind of behavior do I expect? And maybe am I coming off as cold or uncaring unintentionally, because I'm not. And so I, I think that's, I think that's what leaders miss out on a fair amount of them.

B (33:33)

Totally agree. I totally agree. I'm gonna get you out of here on this, Chris. Again, all the things we have in common, right? Leadership. We both love our significant others. Right. We both love the New England patriots on the boat.

A (33:54)

Can I phone a friend?

B (33:56)

I had to figure out how to weave that one Anyway, let me get.

A (33:59)

Eli on the phone.

B (34:00)

Who was that?

A (34:00)

Eli who? I don't want to. Eli's comment. What was it? You know, a couple Super Bowls.

B (34:07)

English. English, professor. But we both love bourbon.

A (34:14)

Yeah. Amen.

B (34:16)

Our good friend Nick Natten told the story every time you guys got together. He's got a fruit. Fruit, bottle of glass of wine. You've got a bourbon. And so he said, hey, we should start a bourbon again. Right. How the hell does that happen, bro?

A (34:36)

Yeah, you know, that's kind of. Nick is a classic guy who has a pretty good game plan to figure stuff out.

B (34:45)

Yeah.

A (34:46)

He really understands implement implementation. He understands teamwork. He's great marketing and sales guy. He's fun to be around, and he's. He's always fun to be around. And that's really kind of how it happens. When he threw out that idea, if I didn't know him already. And we're. And the event, Chicago, we were there for strategic coach. And Nick and I both get coached at strategic coach Dan Sullivan. And one of Dan's rules is if somebody comes up to him, says, I got a great idea, Dan turns on his heels and walks away. Because usually people with a great idea have no idea how to implement. I think the great idea is enough. And, you know, Damon and the Shark Tank crew have openly said on Shark Tank, a great idea might be worth $20. Yeah. Because there's no implementation.

B (35:32)

You would have already done it. You don't have to tell someone you've got a great idea. You, Sheldon.

A (35:36)

You just did. You just did.

B (35:37)

Right.

A (35:37)

So Nick is the opposite. He's already got a game implementation, game plan. When he tells you about what he wants to do. And so. And it didn't even occur to me, the necessary element that we would have to add to our team if we want to do a bourbon would be Roy Milner, who's a Louisville Bourbon insider.

B (35:59)

A.

A (35:59)

A Sherpa, if you will. Yeah, we need a Sherpa. And as it turned out, I'm. I'm explaining Sherpas to Roy. And Roy goes, yeah, that's Nate. She said, that's crazy. That's the name of my company. So Nick's a marketing guy, Nick's a design guy. Nick's a team guy. You know, I. They're bringing me in because she wants to design the branding around. Never split the difference.

B (36:23)

Yeah.

A (36:25)

And I would have thought that would have been enough. But Nick is smart enough to bring in Roy, who's the Louisville insider. He's got credibility with these people. They Know him, they trust him. He knows his way around the industry. He's got great taste. And he finds this, these spectacular hidden gems of bourbon that was available and abandoned by a large corporation because there wasn't enough of it for global retail run. But there was a small amount that was perfect for us. And as turned out it was. It's this extraordinary book blend that has won all these awards. So the serendipity with the right people coming together and working our tails off and we launch this thing and then we get to meet people like you, right? And we get to find out that all these values that we share of regular hardworking people that love having a good time and making really cool stuff happen and that's kind of how the Bourbon comes to be.

B (37:39)

I'm telling you one and I'm putting this on film, it's on audio, it's everywhere. I've said it before, the best bourbon I've ever had, hands down. By far the best bourbon I've ever had, hands down. But the shareholder society, that tight knit group of people, it's a family. I mean in our messaging and email chains, everyone's helping each other out. Hey, I've got a question about this or does anyone know someone over here? And within five minutes you'll see 20 people coming to the rescue or Percy. And then when we're together, it's as if we're long lost family and we're just catching up with each other. To me that's the attraction. The society, the bourbon's great, but that tight knit community, that tight knit family, second to none.

A (38:35)

Yeah, it's from people group be around.

B (38:37)

Absolutely.

A (38:37)

Yeah. I'm glad, I'm glad that you and Nick happen to be sitting next to each other on airplane or something like that. Right.

B (38:44)

And we were flying from Vegas, supposed to be going to Dallas. You know Nick immediately, he's asleep on the bike, right? So he's sitting next to me. I'm like, who's this rude guy that's just eye mask on and everything. We get routed to Austin because there's tornadoes in Dallas. So we land, Nick wakes up, starts getting ready to get up. I'm like, hey dude, you probably just want to hang out for a minute. We're in Austin, he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, we got routed, there's storms in Dallas, we don't know if we're going to get to leave. And a long story short, we shared the difference for four hours on the tarmac in Austin, Texas. And I was hooked ever since then. And that's how I got to know about the Society. And I told Nick that moment, like I'm in like you. He explained the bond no conduct. Right. He explained everything that the found that the Society was about the mission that you all had. And at that moment I said that's a no brainer. This is who I am as a person. All the values that I have are right there inside this design.

A (39:52)

Yeah, that's cool.

B (39:54)

Action. Luke, after. I love you genuinely thank you for all the things that you have done in my life. The conversations, the push. Just thank you for being who you are, brother.

A (40:09)

Thank you. That's mutual. I appreciate that.

B (40:12)

Yes, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, the Vosmeer, the paper.

A (40:21)

Yeah, yeah.

B (40:23)

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