← Mick Unplugged
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- [00:01]
Mick
McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in McDonald's history. Dip it in all the sauces. Dip it in that hot sauce in your bag. Dip it in your McFlurry. Your dip is your business.
- [00:13]
Sabina Nawaz
McCrispy strips at McDonald's, authenticity is not singular, it's plural. Often people will say, well, you're gonna coach me, but you know, I gotta be me, I've gotta. Or an executive who blows up and then says, well, but that's me. You don't want me to be authentic. Authenticity, when people use it for those reasons, is often an excuse for not wanting to grow or change.
- [00:42]
Podcast Intro
Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast for self improvement, leadership and relentless growth. No fluff, no filters, just hard hitting truths, unstoppable strategies, and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits? Let's go.
- [01:10]
Mick
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of MC Unplugged. And today we have someone who's coached leaders from Fortune 500 giants to daring startups, transforming mindsets and igniting leadership potential. She's a powerhouse in executive strategy and her insights challenge comfort zones and spark lasting change. But if there's anything I tell you about our guest today, I want you to know she is the boss. She's the visionary, the fearless, the impactful. Ms. Sabina Nawaz. Sabina, how are you doing today, dear?
- [01:44]
Sabina Nawaz
I'm doing great, especially with that introduction. Miss, thank you so much.
- [01:49]
Mick
Absolutely. Sabina, I was telling you offline, I've been a huge fan of yours. You know, we both are in the leadership space and I think now more than ever, leadership, and I'm going to say emotional intelligence and leadership is something that I like bringing to the forefront. And you know, just from your perspective, Sabina, I know that you like to get people out of their comfort zone when it comes to leadership, but what's the biggest lesson that you had for you getting outside of your comfort zone to get you to where you are today?
- [02:21]
Sabina Nawaz
Well, there's so many examples of that make and most of them happen when I'm actually quite sure of myself and then realize I know nothing. I know I am completely wrong. So it's a big slap in the ego face and it's great. It cuts it down to size from time to time. One of those was when I discovered that I was a lousy manager at Microsoft because that's not how I started. When I manage teams in software engineering they often told me that I was the best boss ever. I cared for them, I coached them. Those were great years. And then I was managing leadership development, executive development for the company. Things were going great until the first day back from parental leave and putting on lipstick for the first time. And my assistant Lori calls, frantic. Where are you? Steve expects you in 30 minutes. She's reading me the memo I'm supposed to discuss with Steve Ballmer, the CEO of the company, as I hit warp speed on my way to work. And that set the pace and tone with inbox overflowing demands from high level executives. Infant at home, no sleep, no peace, no patience. We've all been there from time to time. And for me, I morphed from caring and nurturing as a boss. Too snippy and short. I barked out orders. I. I thought I was being efficient. When I would leave all ten fingers on the keyboard and look over my shoulder and indicate to people, what is it? I'm really busy. You're less important than me. Spit it out and get away. And I. You know, the worst part of me thinking I was efficient? Me thinking I was killing it, when actually I was crushing everybody else. Until a peer of mine told me that somebody was crying in their office because of my behavior. So that was a moment of deep learning and transformation to realize as I went to apologize to this person and his eyes brimmed up, that this is what I want. I want to treat people with humanity and make. This is why I wrote this book, because I've walked in the shoes of people under tremendous amounts of pressure. I know what that's like. And we don't have to become that boss from hell. Look, nobody wants to be a bad boss. It's just that when pressure is untended, it's not power, but pressure that then corrupts our behaviors and shows up in that way that has a harmful effect on us and all the people around us.
- [04:50]
Mick
I totally agree, Sabina. And one of the things that I've been working on is trying to help people be good leaders. A lot of times in society today, we hear great and exceptional. Well, that's someone else's viewpoint. You can be good. And I think a lot of times we don't have enough good leadership because we haven't seen it right. Like when I ask my kids who are in their twenties, tell me a good leader aside from your dad, right? Tell me a good leader that you know. And they all, they say either someone who no longer lives right? Or a social media influencer. And that really made me pause and say we've taken away just being good and the characteristics of good leadership. And I know that for you, you have a lot of pillars of what good management and good leadership looks like. What are some of the pillars that you can share with the viewers and listeners of what it means to just be a good leader or a good boss?
- [05:52]
Sabina Nawaz
Well, make. I have to first pick some, pick some, nitpick some things first. So yes, this notion of greatness, this sort of celebrity culture putting someone on a pedestal and thinking they're perfect, no wonder we cannot think of anybody other than dead people because we're expecting absolute perfection. So there's that piece of great. When I think about good and bad bosses, I actually don't think there is a pure good boss or pure bad boss. They reside all within the same person, just like me, where I was great and good in one circumstance and I didn't change, but my circumstances changed and then I was horrible as a boss. So they reside all inside of us. And so then your question about what are the traits of good leadership of the good side is, are people who. Can I talk about the dual forces of pressure and power. That power doesn't corrupt, pressure corrupts. And then so pressure is this sort of silent corruptor. And then power colludes with it and becomes the great divider. When nobody is going to tell you across that divide, look up to you and say, especially if you're acting snippy and short tempered, hey boss, you're being a jerk. Who's. Who in their right mind is going to tell you that? So then you keep doing these behaviors until it's too late. So for me the traits would be those who can use power and pressure for good. That is, they figure out ways to reduce that power gap. And a large part of that is through communication. And we can go into details there and. Or they manage their own pressures so that they're using pressure for good. See, pressure doesn't have to define you, it can refine you. Just like pressure builds diamonds. So it's about looking at it from that perspective. So I have several pressure pitfalls and what you can do in those situations.
- [07:59]
Mick
I love it. And you brought up communication just now. Right? Let's go a little bit deeper there. Like how important is the communication aspect in your viewpoint?
- [08:11]
Sabina Nawaz
It is the longest chapter in my book. If that's in any indication of how important it is, it's certainly incredibly important. And by communication I mean so many different things. First of all, as a manager, power has a Distorted broken volume knob effect. Everything you're saying from up on high sounds louder, more dire, and more personally directed at the person. So if a boss is wincing because they have a blister on their pinky toe, you're thinking, oh, there goes my bonus, or there goes my job. I hope I had said goodbye to my office plants. So there is this volume knob effect of communication. And how do you make sure that you're not amplifying things beyond the natural amplification that's going to happen because you're in a position of power. So I often tell people, arrange your face before you go into a meeting. If your resting face is really severe like mine is, make sure that you're mindful of that. Make sure that your body language and your face and your facial expressions are in fidelity with the gravitas or the lightness of the message you're communicating. So that's just one example of communication.
- [09:31]
Mick
I love the fact that you talked about your resting face because I think a lot of times, you know, I work with power executives as well, and they don't mean to, and it's not purposeful, but, you know, you could be in thought or you could be, you know, working on a project and you're so laser focused that when someone sees you, they see a scowl on your face, and then that becomes their. Their permanent indication of who you are.
- [09:57]
Sabina Nawaz
Yes.
- [09:57]
Mick
What are some tips that leaders and managers can do to change their face disposition, as I like to call it?
- [10:05]
McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in McDonald's history. Dip it in all the sauces. Dip it in that hot sauce in your bag. Dip it in your McFlurry. Your dip is your business. McCrispy strips at McDonald's, one is just.
- [10:20]
Sabina Nawaz
Being aware of it. So I know I have a very severe resting face, and I try to be aware of it. In fact, I have a microhabit, and we can talk about what those are in a moment. But one of the microhabits I track is, did I consciously put a smile on my face when I was in a resting state? Now, it's not just about smiling and pretending to smile, but also another thing you can do is use numbers. What I mean by that is, let's say you're really excited by something, but people are not quite believing it because your face is giving off a different message. Unintentionally, you might say, hey, on a scale of 1 to 10, this is a 12. You all have just killed it. You've done a phenomenal job. So now they know, calibration wise, where they stand. And similarly, when something is serious saying, on a scale of 1 to 10, this is a 4, as opposed to a 10, because they're going to hear everything as a 10. And by the way, when it's a 4, maybe you want to check yourself and decide whether it's something you even need to share.
- [11:24]
Mick
Mm. Mm. I love that. Sabina, you know, I have this thought or this theory in 2025. And as we talk about modern leadership today, leadership demands vulnerability from leaders. And with you working with high power executives, how do you get them to embrace that as they're leading and managing their teams?
- [11:46]
Sabina Nawaz
Well, luckily, most of them have come to embrace that over the years. You know, I've been doing this for over 25 years now. And 20 years ago, it would be so not okay to talk about anything to do with emotions, let alone deeper vulnerable stuff. Now, many people show up with vulnerable stories with actually some skill at storytelling and being as grounded and rooted in all of themselves, not just the shiny stuff that's going to show up on Instagram for those who don't. And of course, everybody has stuff that they are wondering about, hey, is that going to be too much about me? Are people going to judge me? Is it going to expose me to more criticism? The answer is yes. People are always judging you. And for every one person who judges you harshly, if you do it right, there'll be a thousand who judge you well. So judgment can come in both forms. And I had this one person I was working with who said, and this is one of the myths in my book, the myth being that business isn't personal. It is very personal. And someone was saying, well, you know, I've got. Things are going to hell in a handbasket. We don't know if we'll make it through this year. We have an existential crisis. And I've got to put on a face talk about faces for my team. You know, I've got to tell them everything's fine. We'll come out of it stronger. We're going to be resilient. And I said, have you ever heard the term toxic positivity? And, you know, people are not stupid. They understand what's going on. And when you say that, the only thing you're doing is proving that you are the one who's disconnected and doesn't know what's going on in reality. And when you try to reassure people a little too much you start to worry them. Like, oh, I wasn't afraid before, but maybe I should be afraid now. That was. Why are they trying so hard to reassure me? So instead, he showed up at a meeting and he said, I don't have answers. That's how he started. He said, I don't have answers, and I'm scared. My whole life, I have been the A student who's gotten the grades, the gold stars, the promotions, the bonuses, and this position for knowing the answers, for being the smartest kid in the room. And now it would be foolish for me to say I have the answers, because nobody does. The only way out of this is through a collective intelligence and for us to. To. To join forces so we can collaborate on finding the answer. I may come without answers, but not without hope right now. That vulnerability, that. And he choked up as he was saying, I don't have answers.
- [14:48]
Mick
Yeah.
- [14:48]
Sabina Nawaz
That vulnerability won him followers for life. Won him loyalist for life, because that's the real deal.
- [14:58]
Mick
That was touching. I felt that, Sabina. I felt that. I really felt that. A lot of leaders and managers today focus on performance metrics, but you emphasize, and this is again why I'm a huge fan of yours, you emphasize mindset shifts. Can you talk about the importance of or your belief and mindset as being the ultimate game changer for managers and leaders.
- [15:28]
Sabina Nawaz
When you're in a management position? And the higher up you go in these management positions, as I'm sure you see with your clients make, the more pressure they have, and the more pressure we have, the more we actually forget about mindset. We forget about everything. We're just trying to hunker down and survive.
- [15:46]
Mick
Yeah.
- [15:46]
Sabina Nawaz
And that in itself is a mindset. It's a mindset of scarcity. In the face of pressure, in the face of fear, we go, there's not enough. It's what led to all that toilet paper hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic.
- [15:58]
Mick
Right.
- [16:00]
Sabina Nawaz
When there really wasn't a shortage of toilet paper. What was that? That was a mindset. So the mindset of abundance as opposed to scarcity, that I am enough that we will have answers. I just have to allow some space for those answers to emerge and we'll get through it. That kind of mindset. Another mindset that is pervasive is this mindset of busy and almost a badge of honor entry into a club. If you're not busy, then you're yesterday's news. You're used goods, you're not needed. I'm with the movers and shakers. And look how busy I am. Yeah, right. And that busy mindset also prevents us from looking out onto the horizon, from really focusing on the things that are most important. We get caught up in being what someone jokingly calls CEO, chief email officer, as opposed to really doing the work that's most important to do.
- [17:03]
Mick
I totally agree. I tell people that all the time. Like I coach CEOs and executives on check your email twice a day. Because if Sabina emails me at 10:30 and I respond at 10:33, and then Sabina emails me at 11:30 and I respond at 11:33, I'm training Sabina that if you email me, I'm going to stop what I'm doing and I'm going to allow you to interrupt my day.
- [17:29]
Sabina Nawaz
Yes, yes.
- [17:30]
Mick
And so I teach all leaders two times a day.
- [17:35]
Sabina Nawaz
Exactly.
- [17:36]
Mick
Because the essence of email was to be electronic mail. I don't know if you remember this, Sabina, but the mailman or mail lady used to only come once a day. I don't know why all of a sudden we have this craving to check our mail and to be run by our mail like 100 times a day.
- [17:55]
Sabina Nawaz
Yes. And you know the one that's most common that I coach people on is that first thing in the morning, email. Because let's say there's an expectation that you do need to be responsive at 9 o' clock, maybe even 8 o' clock. But who trained your manager to expect a response from you at 5:00am, right?
- [18:15]
Mick
Yep. All the conditioning. You know, Sabina, I'm glad that I have you here because I want to ask a few things. One, what are some blind spots or myths about leadership that you like to dispel to people?
- [18:30]
Sabina Nawaz
Well, one of those was about no such thing as a purely good or purely bad boss. They reside in all of us. Another one is that authenticity is not singular, it's plural. So often people will say, well, you're going to coach me, but I got to be me. Or an executive who blows up and then says, well, but that's me. You don't want me to be authentic. Authenticity, when people use it for those reasons, is often an excuse for not wanting to grow or change. Because if you think about it as Herminia Ibarra says, that if we were truly authentic to ourselves, we would still be our authentic five year old selves getting down on the floor and having a knockdown, drag out, hissy fit every time we didn't get the candy. So we have changed a lot. What is authenticity? How I'm showing Up with you on this podcast is not how I would show up with my 19 year old son. And how I show up with my 19 year old son is not how I would show up with my girlfriends. And how I show up with my girlfriends is very different from what I do or say with the CEOs I coach. So authenticity is dependent on the role you are performing. And there are certain obligations to that role. I think that what people truly want to mean when they say authenticity is values. What do I value? What's negotiable, what's non negotiable? But even with values, they can be situational. For example, for me, when I value being outspoken and speaking up for things. But if I'm in a situation where my kids are in danger, I'm not going to stop and speak up. I'm going to run with my kids because my value of providing safety to my kids is higher. It subsumes the value of the desire to speak up. It's fine for people to call me a coward or whatever they want, but I care about the safety of my kids way more than speaking up. So authenticity is rarely singular. We have multiple authentic selves.
- [20:49]
Mick
I just, I just learned something. I learned some concepts right there. That was awesome. That was awesome. You know, Sabina, also, as we look at this at Make Unplugged, I like to talk about your because that thing, that's deeper than your why, right? If I were to say, Sabina, today in 2025, what's your because? What's your purpose? What's your mission for doing what you do?
- [21:16]
McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in McDonald's history. Dip it in all the sauces. Dip it in that hot sauce in your bag. Dip it in your McFlurry. Your dip is your business. McCrispy strips at McDonald's.
- [21:36]
Sabina Nawaz
I love the because instead of the why. It also makes me think of that five whys exercise to get to that deeper, deeper understanding of things. For me, it has something to it. Look, I'm an engineer by training, and so I always go back to pragmatic roots. And it has something to do with time and impact and that in a leadership position, you have an outsized impact on other people. Their satisfaction, their work life balance, their paycheck, what they're doing and how they're doing it, and the. And therefore the impact it has on the customers. The quality of the product is created with love or built through fear. And so it's that because is to ignite acts of leadership in everybody so that the impact they have on others is an outsized positive impact.
- [22:34]
Mick
Sabina, you. You touch me every time. Every time. That was moving. That was moving. You know, I know one of the things that you talk about are the habits, right? What are, from a leadership and manager perspective, what are habits that we need to be focused on? What are habits we need to be intentional about? And I'll kind of start because I tell leaders, if there's one habit that you can have today, it's presence. And presence for your team is going to mean something different for all the individuals that you lead or that you manage. And you got to understand how to be present for them. So what are some habits that Sabina thinks are critically important for leaders and managers today?
- [23:22]
Sabina Nawaz
Mick, this is why we're having. We both do the work we do because I'm having this moment, because mine is. Is very close to what you're saying. And the habit is to create a habit to shut up, as in not take up all the oxygen in the room, not be the first one to speak. What if you were the third, fourth or fifth person to speak instead of the first to take notes with your own brilliant ideas and see if someone else suggests it first and only bring out the ones that haven't been suggested by others. So it's really to shut up more and see sense more as a result. And that's about being present. So we are completely in sync on that. Mick?
- [24:02]
Mick
Absolutely. Absolutely. Sabina, you know, over the next couple of years, we're going to have another wave. I think I was reading a SHRM report. Another 275,000 leaders, managers are going to retire. Right? The last wave of boomers is there, which means that people are going to be in leadership positions for the first time, whether someone got elevated and now you're a leader or you got elevated to a leadership spot. What are some things that new leaders and emerging leaders need to know about the workforce today?
- [24:39]
Sabina Nawaz
One of the biggest things you need to know is that being promoted is often the riskiest time in your career when you're promoted to a management position. This is because the strengths that have brought you to this point are going to be viewed very differently and much less charitably by the next that are craning up to look at you. I'll give you a couple of examples. Let's say that you're actually. Mick, what are a couple of your strengths?
- [25:08]
Mick
I think I know my team better than they know them. So I'm able to anticipate team needs. I'm able to really connect with my team. And then I'd say another strength that I have is transparency. I think all leaders need to be transparent with vision. So I'm always communicating vision and the why behind the why, the because with my teams.
- [25:30]
Sabina Nawaz
Great. Now I'm sure this will not be the case with your team because you know them and they know you for a long time. But if you were newly in a position and you're always communicating the why, some people on that team could then go, oh, this guy's just talking all about the lofty why and not about the how. How are we going to get all this done?
- [25:50]
Mick
Yeah.
- [25:51]
Sabina Nawaz
Or wow, he told us we're in trouble this year and he didn't tell us how we're going to get out of it. Are we going to get fired? So stories can get formed around that without you changing anything. Without with you. And 95% of the time you ought to be transparent. You ought to do exactly what you're doing. But that 5% of the time for somebody who is dependent on your every eyebrow twitch, it's going to land differently. So do you know how it's going to land and what are you going to do to nuance that, to adjust that, to be more transparent about the why behind your why, so to speak.
- [26:31]
Mick
That's amazing. Sabine. I could talk to you forever. Like literally, I could just talk to you forever. You ready to do a hot five, Sabina?
- [26:40]
Sabina Nawaz
Sure.
- [26:41]
Mick
All right, five burning questions for Sabina Nawaz. First question. What was the coolest thing about working at Microsoft?
- [26:54]
Sabina Nawaz
When I first started, the coolest thing about working for Microsoft was the free drinks.
- [27:00]
Mick
Free water.
- [27:01]
Sabina Nawaz
Free water, free Coke, Pepsi, Sprite, juice, whatever kind of non alcoholic drink, you name it.
- [27:10]
Mick
There you go. I love it. I love it. What was one of the most challenging things you've had to come to overcome in your career?
- [27:20]
Sabina Nawaz
Self doubt.
- [27:21]
Mick
Oh, okay, we're going to come back to that one. We're going to come back to that one. All right, so you have a 19.
- [27:28]
Sabina Nawaz
Year old and a 22 year old.
- [27:32]
Mick
Okay, so it's summertime and we're going on a family vacation. Where do you go to appease both your 22 year old and your 19 year old? Where's the location?
- [27:43]
Sabina Nawaz
It's a city with hiking nearby because the older one loves cities and public transit and that's what his job is in. And we all love being outdoors and hiking. Okay, all right.
- [27:56]
Mick
Sabina's Making dinner. What's your go to meal? What's the meal that everyone raves about that you create?
- [28:03]
Sabina Nawaz
Oh, it's my chickpea dish. I have this. It's just a recipe for my that I came up with. It was influenced by one of my roommates in college. And it's got onions and cumin and turmeric and tomatoes and sugar and salt. Hey, sugar and salt. What could go wrong if you combine those two things? I love that dish. It's got sour cream and everybody raves about it. In fact, many of my friends now have that as a staple in their homes.
- [28:39]
Mick
Okay, I dig it. I dig it. All right, so then the last hot five for you, Steve Ballmer from the public eye. We saw him obviously with Microsoft. We saw him as the energetic owner of the Clippers on the sidelines, always cheering and pumping. Question, is that Steve Ballmer? Is that really? I know the answer is yes, but that high energy, passionate Steve, is that Steve Ballmer? Everyday.
- [29:06]
Sabina Nawaz
High energy, passion and loyal.
- [29:08]
Mick
Love it, love it, love it, love it. So, Sabina, I'm going to end it with the or. Two things. One, you talked about overcoming self doubt and I wanted to circle back to that because I know that there's someone listening or watching right now. That is that they're not sure. They're unsure. Right. What's some advice you give to that person?
- [29:29]
Sabina Nawaz
Yes. Rent a voice. Rent a voice that's not your own. And if you check out my TEDx talk on YouTube, the whole story is about that. How do you tune into positive voices? So when your own voice is taken rent free occupation inside your head that says you're gonna fail. I don't know why they're asking you to do things. This is not gonna be good enough. It's gonna be a disaster. Go talk to somebody else and who has perhaps at that moment more faith in you than you have in yourself.
- [30:02]
Mick
Find the voice, Sabina. That's a keynote in there somewhere.
- [30:11]
Sabina Nawaz
There is one. I have a keynote in there.
- [30:13]
Mick
Yes, exactly.
- [30:14]
Sabina Nawaz
It is one of my keynotes.
- [30:15]
Mick
Exactly. All right, so Sabina, let's wrap up. Let's talk about the book a little bit. Title of the book, where you want people to find the book and why is the book important for everyone right now?
- [30:29]
Sabina Nawaz
The book is called you're the boss and that's why it's important for everybody. It's become the manager you want to be and others need, but really, every single One of the 16 tools in here is about making you the boss of your life. Whether you're in a management position or not, how do you deal with pressure? How do you navigate life in a way where you have a sense of agency no matter what's coming at you? And gosh, we have a lot coming at us. They can find this book anywhere books are sold. You can also, if you don't buy the book. But I give away resources to based on the book all the time on my substack called Pressure free and pressure proof. And you can follow me on substack. You can also sign up for it through my website, sabina nawaz.com Sabina nawaz.com.
- [31:18]
Mick
Where can people find and follow you on social? You know it's 2025, right? If my kids tell me, dad, if you don't exist on social, no one knows you're around, it's like, all right, fine, I'll have social.
- [31:27]
Sabina Nawaz
Then. The best thing to do would be to follow me on LinkedIn. But I'm also on all the other platforms. Instagram, Bluesky, et cetera.
- [31:36]
Mick
Awesome, awesome, awesome. Sabina, totally honored to have you on one of my favorite leaders of leaders is what I call you Sabina Nawaz. Sabina, I owe you. You're a gem. You're a treasure. Thank you from the bottom of my soul.
- [31:52]
Sabina Nawaz
Thank you, Mick. It's an honor. Likewise, back at you.
- [31:56]
Mick
You got it. And for all the viewers and listeners, remember your because is your superpower. Go unleash it.
- [32:05]
Podcast Intro
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged. If today hits you hard, then imagine what's next. Be sure to subscribe, rate and share this with someone who needs it. And most of all, make a plan and take action, because the next level is already waiting for you. Have a question or insight to share? Send us an email to hellocunplugged.com until next time, ask yourself how you can step up.
- [32:39]
Mick
McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in McDonald's history. Dip it in all the sauces. Dip it in that hot sauce in your bag. Dip it in your McFlurry. Your dip is your business. McCrispy strips at McDonald's.