Mick Unplugged: Stacey Abrams – Redefining Justice Through the Power of AI
Date: September 6, 2025
Host: Mick Hunt
Guest: Stacey Abrams
Theme: Leadership, Power, and AI in the Justice System
Episode Overview
In this insightful episode, host Mick Hunt sits down with Stacey Abrams—renowned political leader, author, and advocate—to discuss the complex intersections of power, leadership, and the growing role of artificial intelligence in the legal system. They dive into Abrams' latest legal thriller, Coded Justice, exploring themes of justice, power dynamics, diversity, and the far-reaching societal implications of AI. Throughout, Abrams brings her signature clarity, relatability, and purpose-driven perspective.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Discovering Your “Because” (02:14–05:22)
- Stacey’s Motivation: Abrams explains her “because”—her deeper driving force beyond the usual “why”:
- Quote: “Because poverty is immoral. It is economically inefficient, and it is solvable. And we give ourselves too much permission because ... for many, it is an excuse. For me, it is a call to action.” (02:51 – Stacey Abrams)
- Early Influences: Her parents’ value of service, despite their own struggles, instilled a sense of responsibility and efficiency in service.
- Quote: "Having nothing's not an excuse for doing nothing." (03:32 – Stacey Abrams)
- Leadership Insight: From a young age, Abrams questioned how to move from helping on a micro level to creating systemic change.
2. Power, Position, and Impact (05:22–11:28)
- The Nature of Power:
- Abrams distinguishes between positional power (held by office) and real, community-driven power.
- Quote: “Anyone in politics, anyone with elected office, has borrowed power... It's not your power. It's borrowed.” (05:22 – Stacey Abrams)
- The responsibility to return power to the people when officeholders misuse it.
- Mindset Shift: True power comes from action, not title. You don’t wait for permission to make changes; "good trouble" is necessary.
- Quote: "I like to describe myself these days as a professional troublemaker because my belief is that you can't make things happen if you're waiting for permission." (10:09 – Stacey Abrams)
- Impact vs. Authority: You are responsible for action, even without given authority.
3. Legal Journey and Tax Policy as a Lever of Power (12:08–17:47)
- Unexpected Legal Path: Unlike her sister Leslie (a federal judge), Stacey didn’t always aim to be a lawyer—her path evolved through academic opportunities that aligned with her purpose.
- Tax Policy Focus:
- Abrams highlights tax law as a critical, often overlooked site of power.
- Quote: “Tax policy is one of the most obscure ways that power is wielded over us." (13:54 – Stacey Abrams)
- Types of Taxes Explained: Progressive, neutral, and regressive taxes; focus on how tax structures preserve power imbalances.
- Relatable Analogy: "A loaf of bread costs the same amount whether you are rich or poor. That’s why they go after the loaf of bread." (16:34 – Stacey Abrams)
4. Making Complex Ideas Accessible (17:47–19:37)
- Roots in Relatability: Abrams credits her parents for her ability to communicate complex ideas clearly and connect with a broad audience.
- Quote: "You should never dumb down what you say, but you can always make certain that people can rise to where they deserve to be." (18:26 – Stacey Abrams)
5. Coded Justice – Bringing AI into the Legal Narrative (19:53–25:57)
- Why Write About AI in Justice?: Abrams sought to demystify AI, making it accessible yet thrilling while empowering readers to question and understand these systems.
- Quote: "I want you to enter feeling curious and leave there feeling empowered and a little scared." (21:46 – Stacey Abrams)
- Realism in Storytelling: The book illustrates plausible futures for AI in the legal system—posing crucial questions about societal values and the risks of bias.
- Key Leadership Lessons in the Book:
- Responsibility without authority (the character Avery)
- The importance of questioning
- The necessity to learn from mistakes and accept being wrong as part of leadership growth
6. The Human Element in AI Justice (22:17–24:14)
- Limits of AI in Justice: Abrams doubts AI alone will resolve entrenched disparities.
- Quote: "Our human nature is always going to lean towards punishment versus practicality." (22:38 – Stacey Abrams)
- Diversity & Representation: The book uses the military as a model of diversity, emphasizing that justice requires acknowledgment of differing backgrounds and experiences.
7. Responsibility for AI Decisions: Who Is Accountable? (27:27–30:27)
- Code, Coder, or Company?:
- Ultimate responsibility falls on companies who deploy AI, as the code itself lacks agency.
- Quote: "The code does not write itself. The code is a reflection of the coder. The coder is a reflection of the environment ... But ultimately, it's the company." (28:22 – Stacey Abrams)
- The Need for Regulation: Abrams strongly advocates for regulatory guardrails to protect the public and prevent harm.
- Quote: "Regulation means asking questions. It's about guardrails ... We did that once before in recent memory and that was the Internet. And look what we're trying to fix." (29:34 – Stacey Abrams)
8. Real-World AI Legal Cases; Data Privacy and DEI (30:27–35:26)
- Recent Legal Developments: Discusses a key case (Anthropic) regarding scraped public data to train AI models and the current lack of data privacy protection.
- Quote: "There's no legal case because there's no law and we need both." (32:35 – Stacey Abrams)
- Building Ethical AI: Abrams’s own work developing a closed-source AI chatbot for DEI, highlighting the importance and current threats to diversity-focused systems via poorly considered regulation.
- Quote: “In today's conversation we have a leader... saying it should be unlawful for us to ... build appropriately for the diversity of our country to serve our warriors. That should terrify anybody." (35:00 – Stacey Abrams)
9. Endorsements, Praise, and Critique (35:47–37:41)
- Handling Feedback: Abrams remains grateful for praise but strives to stay grounded and focus on learning from all responses.
- Quote: "You can't get more excited about praise than you do about the critique. ... If you start trying to respond to critics or ... adulation, you end up writing their book and not your own." (36:38 – Stacey Abrams)
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------| | 02:51 | “Because poverty is immoral. It is economically inefficient, and it is solvable ... For me, it is a call to action.” | Stacey Abrams | | 05:22 | “Anyone in politics, anyone with elected office, has borrowed power... It's not your power. It's borrowed.” | Stacey Abrams | | 10:09 | “I like to describe myself these days as a professional troublemaker ... you can't make things happen if you're waiting for permission.” | Stacey Abrams | | 13:54 | “Tax policy is one of the most obscure ways that power is wielded over us.” | Stacey Abrams | | 16:34 | “A loaf of bread costs the same amount whether you are rich or poor. That’s why they go after the loaf of bread.” | Stacey Abrams | | 18:26 | “You should never dumb down what you say, but you can always make certain that people can rise to where they deserve to be.” | Stacey Abrams | | 21:46 | "I want you to enter feeling curious and leave there feeling empowered and a little scared." | Stacey Abrams | | 22:38 | "Our human nature is always going to lean towards punishment versus practicality." | Stacey Abrams | | 28:22 | "The code does not write itself. The code is a reflection of the coder ... But ultimately, it's the company." | Stacey Abrams | | 29:34 | "Regulation means asking questions. It's about guardrails ... We did that once before in recent memory and that was the Internet." | Stacey Abrams | | 32:35 | "There's no legal case because there's no law and we need both." | Stacey Abrams | | 35:00 | "... it should be unlawful for us to ... build appropriately for the diversity of our country to serve our warriors. That should terrify anybody." | Stacey Abrams | | 36:38 | "You can't get more excited about praise than you do about the critique ... you end up writing their book and not your own." | Stacey Abrams |
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 02:14 – Abrams defines her “because” and early upbringing
- 05:22 – Difference between power, position, and real influence
- 09:00 – Mindset shift: acting with borrowed power
- 13:54 – Tax policy as a hidden instrument of power
- 17:47 – Making complex issues accessible; family influence
- 19:53 – Why write Coded Justice? The challenge of AI in justice
- 22:38 – Can AI lessen sentencing disparities?
- 25:57 – Leadership lessons in Coded Justice
- 28:12 – Responsibility for ethical AI: coder, code, or company?
- 30:42 – Recent legal AI cases and data privacy issues
- 35:00 – Closed-source AI and the DEI regulatory landscape
- 36:38 – Abrams’s philosophy on handling praise and criticism
Episode Conclusion
Final Note:
Mick and Stacey close with mutual admiration and an open invitation to continue the conversation, emphasizing the need for resilient leadership grounded in purpose (“because”). Abrams shares where listeners can follow her work, and Mick offers signed copies of Coded Justice to the audience—championing action over complacency.
Closing Inspiration:
Mick: “Remember your because is your superpower. Go unleash it.” (40:14)
Resources
- Stacey Abrams’s Official Site: staceyabrams.com
- Coded Justice Book Info: [Link]
- AI Chatbot for DEI: aprnetwork.org
Summary for the Listener
This episode is a masterclass in modern leadership, social responsibility, and the complexities of AI-driven justice. Abrams’s compelling insight—rooted in lived experience, deep knowledge, and visionary thinking—delivers a narrative that is both cautionary and hopeful. Whether you’re a leader, a tech enthusiast, or simply someone passionate about justice, this conversation provides actionable wisdom and provocative questions for our AI-powered future.