B (3:56)

And. And your mother, you told me, was actually sent. Is that right? To her grandmother when she was a child. Is that right?

C (4:07)

Yes. My mom, in a very young age, I think her parents. Her parents had issues, so they sent her away to the grandmother. Not. It's not a typical story where, you know, the children, the parents didn't have time, so the grandmother raised the child very loving. It's unfortunately not that typical story. My grandparents were owing a lot of things, money or whatever you can put into that pot to my grandmother. So instead of paying it back, it was the easiest way to give my mother away. And because my great grandmother, she had diabetes and needed a lot of help. So my mom, yeah, was useful then.

B (5:05)

So she became the sort of payment off of the debt, if we can put it that way. Marusha. The simple question is, why did they come to Switzerland? Why did they flee Sri Lanka?

C (5:20)

So there was a civil war going on, and I remember my father not joining directly. The Tamil Tigers, the. How do you call the group, sort of a rebellious group.

B (5:34)

Yeah.

C (5:34)

They were fighting oppression, though, which is very important to say. My father didn't join directly because I also remember it didn't fit the. The family picture, you know, the son going do rebellious stuff, but he had his political view. And when the civil war really reached the peak, he. He had to flee, and he went on, and he was chased by the Single east government, too. And unfortunately, I don't know all the details, but I know that it reached a point where he wasn't able to hide in his own country anymore, and he had to leave that country. And my grandparents and their whole family, they've put, you know, all the money together that was even possible. And I don't know the exact terms, but, you know, giving the house to the. To the bank.

B (6:36)

Yeah, mortgaging it, so.

C (6:38)

Exactly. And to get the money to make sure that my dad is able to, you know, get to Switzerland. Well, Switzerland wasn't his goal, but get to Europe safely. And my mother followed him quickly after. And my mom had also her older brother who already went to Switzerland, also a political refugee, and they, both, my uncle and my dad, helped and make sure that my mom was also able to join shortly after.

B (7:12)

So you basically Have a family in two families in Sri Lanka who got themselves into quite a lot of debt and raised quite a lot of money to get both your mother and your father into Europe. Right.

A (7:25)

As.

C (7:26)

Although I don't know the details exactly how they're. How was the process of, you know, fleeing, how did they. How did they struggle and everything. I do know that for an example, my dad is the. The eldest boy, let me say. And so it is obvious that you support the boy. Right. And. But my mom, on the other hand, is the. The youngest child. That was at the beginning a burden had to help the grandmother and now the eldest, her elder brother, my uncle, who was already in Switzerland, was like in. Torn in between helping a girl to come to Switzerland or someone who, who, you know, can actually help the family again. So I don't know the details exactly about what their fleeing was, but I do know that it is very complex and at the end it was more about, you know, the life after than actually the trauma of fleeing.

B (8:31)

Yeah. So that was in, in. In 1989, and seven years later you were born. That's. Is that right? Tell me if I'm wrong.

A (8:43)

In.

B (8:44)

In an asylum center in Switzerland.

C (8:48)

Exactly. My. My mom, well, before I was born, she had one, I believe you say, silent birth, you know, bringing a dead child to the world and before tons of miscarriages, as you can imagine, the stress that puts that a woman has on her body and, you know, becoming pregnant and so on. So I was the almost the fourth try that finally succeed seated. And they were still living in a refugee camp in Basel. And my mom used to work as a. Not as a nurse, but an assistant to nurses, and my dad worked in restaurants. But they lived years in that refugee camp and they were. Weren't able to move forward. They didn't get the visa, they didn't get the permit to, you know, live outside of the asylum center. But after my birth, it worked.

B (9:50)

So why were they not allowed to. Because it's seven years. Why were they not allowed to move out? Why were they not given. And I assume they were not really given permission to work either, Is that correct?

C (10:05)

Exactly. At the beginning? No, in those seven years, at the beginning, they didn't get any permission. But, you know, they will always find a way to work. Of course.

B (10:18)

Of course. Absolutely. They needed to survive. So were they stuck there? Because they were not really given status because he was a political refugee.

A (10:28)

What was it?

C (10:30)

He was a political refugee. And unfortunately he forgot all his stuff when he had to run for his life. He Forgot all his evidence and everything that you're supposed to bring to Switzerland to prove that you're a refugee. He regrets that very much. He would do it differently the other. In the next. In the next life. Hopefully not. But that's what he jokes sometimes about. And, and also, Switzerland was never his goal. He always, he said he would never go voluntarily to a place where there is no. Why would someone, you know, freeze to death if there is a beach and. And so many other destinations in Europe? And he, he said that he got into a lorry and, you know, he had to hide for hours. So, I mean, I think that something that I would say, my dad still talks about, I think it must been a very traumatic ride in that lorry because your hours in. In a wooden box not knowing when you can get out, because someone has to come to the back, open that wooden box and let you know, hey, you can come out. So you have to just stay there. And I think a human being put a human being alone in a box for too long, you never know what comes. And yeah, so he never wanted to come to Switzerland because also he knew that the law in Switzerland was very difficult. So his goal was Italy. But yeah, you can guess where he landed in Switzerland. And there he couldn't prove his point. He couldn't prove that he was a political refugee. He only had his experiences, and that's why it took so long.

B (12:17)

You're the eldest of three children. Your sister was born three years after you, and your brother was born two years after that. And during that time, both your mother was struggling and your father was obsessing with trying to support his own family, you guys. And at the same time, this obsession which. And the drive that so many people who leave or migrants have, which is to send money back home, you said a wonderful thing, a very colorful thing you said. When you flee to a wealthy country, that's when the shit hits the fan because you have to support the family back home. And it's absolutely right. So just tell me something about that. So you guys, I assume then moved out of the refugee, the asylum center or refugee camp. Tell me something about that initial time, please.

C (13:22)

So my parents finally got a place in Zurich city, and it's called Limatblad. And if you come to Zurich today, to Switzerland, if someone tells you there is a little Sri Lanka in Switzerland, everyone knows it's Limbatplatz. And my parents finally got a space and that meant they didn't want to, you know, if you want to be a refugee, but not A burden. Then you make sure you're not being supported by the social service. You make sure that you get your own job, you pay your own bills and you make sure you, you know, you're, you don't make noise and you know, be, be a Swiss person. So my, they got an apartment that they know, hey, we could save a lot of money if we could share that place, you know. So it was a two or three room apartment and we lived with eight people in there. So my mom, new newly mom, my dad and I think it was, yeah, six men and they all lived in that tiny, tiny three room apartment. And I, I mean, I don't remember that much of that time because I think I, I believe I was happy. I, I believe, you know, I was a baby. Yeah, it didn't need much to be happy. But my dad. So the goal was to save money, make sure that, you know, you use that money differently. Now remember again, my dad, it was worth investing in my, he can support the family back. But it was always, you know, a discussion, is it worth to invest in my mom because can she support the family back home too? And so she was stuck with the baby and you know, also making sure you fulfill all the expectations from the society, you feel all the expectations from your husband, family and you know, your husband and you make sure you maybe have, you know, a small space where you can, you know, meet your expectations towards yourself and be a mother too. So she had so many things on her plate and my dad, his only goal was make sure we get the house back in Sri Lanka that they had to loan away and make sure you support your family, make sure you send money monthly, make sure you got enough money that all your sisters can get married. Because in Sri Lanka you have to pay the husband some amount of money for, you know, the marriage because you're giving your burden away. I know it's not, it's not something that everyone would agree on when it comes to my wording, but you know, you want to keep it real and that's how it is. Yeah, yeah.

B (16:36)

It's the dowry, isn't it? You're giving the burden away. Yeah. So you got to give it some wealth.

C (16:41)

Exactly, exactly. My mom was really struggling. She. Because we also lived in a place where, you know, I think the drug scene was very active. So it was very difficult for her to raise a child without any support. Support from family members to, you know, live in a house with seven men, to not being able to have a partnership with your husband because he was very Busy, I think my dad worked in. My dad got his first job, and it was a very typical historical restaurant in Zurich. And I think he. He slept at home, I think six hours maximum, and he went back to work. That was his life. So.

B (17:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your mother, understandably, as you told me when we got to know each other, had postnatal depression, and she did suffer after the birth. Your mother eventually went out to get a job. Right. And I assume this was. This was a bit like sort of a cork coming out of a bottle because she was probably desperate to get out of there.

C (18:05)

Yes. My mom found cleaning jobs at the beginning. She wasn't able to go back in nursing or in assistant nursing for a very long time, but she found families, rich Swiss families, where she could clean for money and. Yeah, but that was already after. I think it still took three years after my sister was born. I mean, we know now that she suffered from depression back then, a postnatal depression. But at that point, she didn't know, or I think there was no one to tell her.

B (18:48)

You were about six, is that right? Your sister, what, three? Just over a year.

C (18:58)

The first house after they were able to move out from the asylum center was in the middle of the city. It obviously became more dangerous because of the drug scene and because my mom would tell me that I would go on the playground, come back with the needle, and that's when my dad would become furious and, you know, hit her. Because that's what men did back then and unfortunately still do when they're overwhelmed with the situation and they realized that they cannot raise their kids here because, you know, and both of them are working. It's not a safe area. And that's when we moved outside of the city. But again, not as a family, just the four of us, the five of us. It was with, you know, all the eight men with us. And I think the goal or the. The initial thought of my parents was, hey, we're helping you to also save money, you know, towards the men. Can you please take care of the kids at least so we can go to work? What happened then? I think the idea at the beginning made sense. You know, they were helping each other out. But everyone. But we forget that everyone is having their own battle and everyone is here with the main goal of supporting your family back home. So when the man got a permit, a work permit or a job, or, you know, a job where on the black market or whatever, you do it because that's the most important thing you've got. It's not being loyal to anyone. It's not being, you know, truthful or whatever. You found a job that was the goal to come to Europe. You go and do that job. That's what happened. And I think my parents both my mom was suddenly very happy because, you know, she could go to work, my dad could go to work and she could also support her family and you know, things were getting better. What then changed is the, the men who lived with us, they, you know, found a woman to marry, found a job, found maybe an own house and everyone left. I think within, I cannot tell you, but it was open your. Close your eyes and open. And everyone was gone. And my parents, I think they didn't, they didn't register it as a like, you know, alarming signal. Hey, okay, maybe someone has to back up again. Someone has to stay home. No, I think there were so many, so much in this successful work life where they, you know, finally could get money and make sure their family are well. They forgot that they had children at home.

B (21:52)

So I assume Mirusia, being the eldest in the. In that in the family at the age of six or whatever now had to look after the. Her two toddlers. Basically. They were, they were kids. They were, they were little kids.

C (22:08)

Yeah, yeah, that was, that's what, how you do it, right? I mean it's so logic. It's a logic, easy solution. That's literally how I remember it. Yeah, so my mom told me, hey, you're the big girl and my dad too. You can take care of your siblings. And we know you can do it because you are very, very brave. And I, I remember that so, so well. Like everything else is like broken pieces, you know, I was six, but that I remember so well because I got so much credit for that of being so brave, being not complicated, you know, I just stepped up. So I'm the big girl I had to bring. So I was in the first class in school, almost second. My sister was in kindergarten and my brother was in nursery school. I remember I had a micro like, you know, the two wheel micro that you have to push.

A (23:22)

Yeah.

C (23:24)

Obviously stolen. I stole it somewhere because my parents wouldn't buy me anything. I'm. I'm apologizing to that kid that I stole from. And I remember putting, you know, my sister in the front and my brother, you know, before her, he was kneeling down. I was holding the micro my sister was holding in between my hands and you know, I, I pushed, I pushed, I pushed and my school was uphill. So yeah, I didn't know how to read the clock. I just woke up in the morning when it was, you know, bright. I knew that I had to get them ready and go to go to school. So I just arrived when I arrived.

B (24:08)

And basically you had to take them one to, to, to nursery and the other one to kindergarten and the other one and then you had to go to school, correct? Is that right?

C (24:18)

Yeah. But before I went to school I obviously went to the supermarket because I was hungry, so I stole a sandwich there and then I went to school.

B (24:24)

Yeah, yeah. And did any of the, the, the people at the nursery school or the kindergarten, did they notice that your, I assume your, your brothers and sisters were not exactly immaculate as it were and I assume they. Did they notice that you were pretty neglected or not?

C (24:53)

I don't remember them noticing, to be honest. I, I mean obviously I didn't give my siblings a bath or I, we didn't brush our teeth. Like, you know, we were really in a bad shape, but not bad enough to notice. I think you have to really be an expert and focus on the details to really notice because I was very functionable and I just made sure that, I also made sure that no one, you know, go calls my parents and.

B (25:36)

Complain.

C (25:37)

How do I say? Yeah, complain. Yes, exactly.

B (25:40)

Yeah.

C (25:41)

But when it becomes noticeable was me sleeping in school, I would sleep through a whole class because sometimes I was very busy waiting at home, you know, for my parents to come back home and tell them what I've achieved, you know, and they never came or I just slept before I fell asleep. And yeah, so, you know, I was up very late and in the morning when I woke up, they were gone already. It's not, they never cooked anything. I think they cooked at home. They made sure we had food. But I think for them it was, what they did was enough. But obviously food gets bad if you don't put it in the fridge. How would a 6 year old know that you have to put the food in the fridge? Food runs out. If you have three kids at home, you know, how would a six year old know how to do a shopping list and tell them, hey, this is missing, you know, I mean this, this is what happened basically. I think in their perspective or me walking in their shoes, if they cook now, they, they would say, they wouldn't think, oh, I forgot to cook, I cooked, I made sure that there is food at home. I made sure they have fresh clothes and so on. So yeah, that's actually when it really became, became obvious that something was wrong at home. And also my Stealing. I really stole everyone's lunchbox or tiffin. You know, it was so mean. Or even at the, you know, during the break. So someone would wake me up all the time. I mean, obviously I would smell. And so my, my teacher became sort of alert and in the time at 10 o' clock when we had this longer break, a farmer would bring a box of apples and would, I would, you know, why did my shirt. Put all those apples in my shirt and bring it home? But my school was until 12, so I wasn't able to bring it home earlier. So I would just save those apples on my table, which was very alarming. And yeah, that's when, yeah, they started to know.

B (28:11)

And this lasted for about what, about a year? Is that. Or more. Is that right?

C (28:16)

More than a year? Yeah, I would. That's how it feels. More than a year.

B (28:23)

So it's. I, I'm just an old word, agog, as they say, at the. In awe at how this child could have kept it going for such a long time. And then something really, really significant happened, didn't it? In this life full of significant events. Could you tell me something about that? Which broke the. In fact, broke the pattern, didn't it?

C (28:52)

Yeah. Like I said, I was most of the times alone at home in the night too. And one night my, My brother was having a fever cramp and I didn't know how to help. He was really not responsive. He was having this white, white foam coming out of his mouth. And like now you can say as a pediatric nurse, if a white foam comes out of the mouth, the pramp has been quite a. A few minutes and I want. I tried to call my parents, but they didn't pay the, the, the bill, the telephone bill. Telephone bill. So I couldn't call them. That's when I had to run to my neighbor and ask. I didn't say that my brother was cramping. I just asked if I could use the phone because I know that I cannot disappoint my parents and, you know, tell what's happening behind closed doors. So that's when she was like, hey, it's very late. Why, where are your parents? You know, And I said, they're coming back. I just need to make a phone call. She didn't fall for it. She came to her house, she saw my brother cramping. And that's when everything happened. We went to the hospital. The police was involved. My parents were informed when, you know, when the police was involved. A child was with two younger children under five, home alone that's when also the Child Protective Service, everyone was involved after that. Yeah, my. My parents were obviously very shocked. I think they didn't realize how severe this situation was because it was working so well for so long and for whom? For them.

B (30:49)

Yeah. It's an interesting thing. I'm, you know, make a little small passing remark just listening to you going through this. Going through this stuff. You're very good at explaining, giving them good reason for doing these things. You are extraordinary that way. You do. And I noticed that when we first got to know each other as well. You will tell the story in such a way that actually, you know, they didn't understand these things. You know, they did very good at that. And I, you know.

C (31:25)

Yeah, it is.

B (31:27)

So the, the, the. Did they. Did the social services take you away from your parents or what happened?

C (31:34)

Not quite away. They sent two women every day home to. To just observe how this family dynamic is. Is it safe for the child to be at home? My mom was supposed to go to it to a psychologist, but back then there was no Tamil psychologist available. And it is very difficult to talk to someone about your traumatic experience or whatever when you cannot express yourself properly. And she didn't go. So it, it became worse and worse. My mom not being able to. To. To see what she's doing wrong. My dad not being accountable for anything because he's, you know, he's still doing everything that happened. He's still busy supporting his family in Sri Lanka. So he was still at work a lot of the time. So every hold, the whole focus was on my mother because somehow she was still able to come back because she was still breastfeeding my brother. Then. Yeah, back in the. And it didn't work. So after quite a time, I remember that the Child Protective Service decided to put us into a children's home. And we all tweet together. I mean, for my mom, it was a shock. My. For my dad, it was a shock. My dad, it wasn't. It was perfect for him because he could blame the mother because, you know, that's when he also got the support. Isn't a mom supposed to be taking care of the child? My mom had no one to blame, so it was a very. I think that was another very traumatic experience for them. And for me, I think for me it was. I still remember it was the 2nd of January, 2007, and I remember crossing the lake with the ferry because the social worker, our social worker brought us by car. It was at night. I could see the lights from the lake. I'm like the world could look different. You know, I was very curious and like very happy, but only outside of the house. Because if I go back home, my mom and my dad, they would tell me we really believed in you. We're very disappointed in you.

B (34:15)

That so you would, you would then be. The three of you would be in this home, whatever it is, Monday to Friday and then send you back for the weekend. And at that stage and when you went back to the weekend, they actually said this is all basically your fault.

C (34:34)

Yeah. For a very, very long time. They would still play back the situation that I was in where my brother had the fever cramp and trying to find so many different solutions that I could have, you know, ask for help for. And what that. That destroyed me for a very long time. I think I felt for a very long time as a failure. And also because remember like this is what, this is why I'm the fleeing part of my parents. I think that was something that was, that was so little in when you compare it to what everything came after. Because I was part of their plan. I was part of their plan of supporting their family, making sure everyone is well, making sure they can be well seen in the society. So you know, as a great Tamil family and respected and also, you know, have children and also go to work and support your family. And so it was part of their plan that failed. So. Yeah, it was very, very, very difficult time.

B (35:59)

Yeah. Yeah. And interesting. You said the part of the plan that failed. Of course, you know, it was six years old.

C (36:06)

Yeah.

B (36:06)

You were a baby. You did say to me when we, when we were getting again talking earlier that you know, that children's home saved you basically because it took you away from this burden. You were allowed to be a child, I assume when you were there. That's right.

C (36:24)

I relearned how to be a child.

B (36:27)

Except it was. Except you had that thing of having to go back and be blamed every weekend. Quick question. When did you understand that you were not a failure, that this was an ex. You were. You did extraordinary things. When did you understand that?

C (36:49)

I think in my teenage years when I sort of had my breakthrough, you know, rebelling and everything. And you know, I used to. I used to never fight back or be rude or anything. But in my teenage years I think I was very difficult to handle. And that's when I also realized obviously the children's home, semi to therapy and so on. I realized these people it up and blamed me, you know, and. But it was very difficult to. I mean cognitively I knew, Miru, it is not you. It is not you. You didn't do this, you didn't fail them, you know, But I think in my heart, my love for them was so big and still is. I still love them very dearly, but I think it was very hard to choose me, myself, but. And still choose them if it makes sense. And that's when I realized. And it's still a process that I'm still working on, because knowing something, realizing something, knowing something and actually believing it, they are really, really totally different things.

B (38:05)

Yeah, yeah. You almost, intellectually, you can. You can stand back at a certain stage, I suppose, and say, you know, they screwed it up, you know, and blame me. That's one thing. But the other thing, of course, is those. Those emotional buttons that say, you know, they were the ones who said I was so brave, you know, and I wanted to be brave with them, and they're my parents and, you know, and I could. And God, they told me, I've let them down. Oh, dear. I've let them down. I've let them down. I've let them down. In the meantime, however, you were going to school and you struggled at school, didn't you?

C (38:48)

Very much, yeah. I have very big issues focusing in school, performing. I was daydreaming a lot. I was most of the time somewhere else, but in the classroom, and I couldn't deliver. I was. And obviously, that was another thing my parents struggled with too, because they. Not now. All the children are in the children's home. The eldest is not performing well. Is there anything to save our reputation now?

B (39:22)

That was very important. Sorry.

A (39:24)

Sorry.

B (39:25)

That was very important. The reputation was very important amongst the. Amongst the Tamil community in Switzerland or amongst the entire community.

C (39:34)

Was that entire. Because in Sri Lanka, everyone was waiting for us to, you know, bring success home. Yeah. And it didn't. It didn't happen, at least not in the way that they expected it. Yeah. But I still managed. I mean, I still managed to become a nurse, though. I'm. I'm a qualified nurse. I'm working. I. I used to work with children for more than 12 years. I. After that changed to the refugee camp, which probably is one of the biggest reasons why I'm able to tell the story in a very understanding way, because I'm able to walk in their shoes better.

B (40:28)

And you now work with people who are affected by drugs. Is that drug addicts? Is that what you work with now? Yeah.

C (40:36)

Yes. Yes.

A (40:37)

That's interesting. Why.

B (40:38)

Why that?

C (40:41)

I never. I didn't see that coming. But I must say it is one of the most fulfilling things that I've done ever. I think I always knew, I always knew I will always be somewhere where we have to protect someone's story or at least tell the world how it actually was. I always knew that. And that's why I also went to the. To work, you know, with children, because it was very important to me that I make sure that we listen to them. And, and afterwards I wanted to, I went to work with refugees also. Didn't see myself working there, but that opened my eyes and it was like we are focusing so much on the fleeing part, which is, don't get me wrong, it is huge. The traumatic experiences that these people carry with them is unbearable, and I'm not debating on that. But one thing we always forget to focus on. Do you know what happens next? Do you know how huge the, the, the, the bag of burdens that you're passing on to your family members, to your loved ones, partner, children, how it has an effect on where you work and everything? Do you know, like, way longer than the period of fleeing? And I think that is something that was very important to me when I started to working at the refugee camp to also, you know, to help them be prepared, you know, for the next episode of their life. And it was a very traumatic workplace for me. I've. I had so many, you know, light. How do you say light bulbs going, exactly. But at the same time it's like, whoa, whoa. Now it's the point where do you want to still work as a nurse or do you want to be so traumatized that you will be never able to work as a nurse? And I chose to be still a nurse. Obviously I'm more useful in being a nurse than being traumatized. So that's when I changed to work with drug addicts. And there again, so much happens before someone becomes a drug addict.

B (43:21)

A corny question, but what is the core lesson that you've. You're learning that you want to take forward to your own children when you have them, to your, the next generation.

A (43:37)

And to the people, of course, that.

B (43:39)

You'Re working with.

C (43:43)

To again, keep it real? I, or like my vision or my imagination, is that if I treat my child wrong, that I want, I want my child to turn around and tell me, clean up your own mess. Don't put it on me. This is what I wish. This is what I wish. I think I want the people, or the people I also work with, with, with drug people who are drug addicts, I want them to know that, yes, you are a drug addict, but if someone else is putting their own issues, family members, mothers, fathers, you know, know, tell them to turn around and clean up your own mess before you put that on my plate too. And I think that is something. Yeah, I want that to happen. I want to be part of that movement in the, in the, in the coming generation. And it's also something that I repeat. I'm like. I'm like a broken recorder. I tell that again and again. And my. My patients would also tell me, miru, why are you repeating yourself? You said it again last week. And I'm like, yeah, but it seems like, it seems like I need to say it again because if you can sit in your chair and listen to again and again the abuse that your parents, your friends are, you know, having towards yourself, then you. Then I should sit in my chair and tell you or remind you again and again that, you know, give it back to them, whatever they're mad for or mad at you, give it back to them and ask them, is there something that you contributed in it to?

B (45:30)

You formed this organization called Hand for Hand. Just tell me something about that.

C (45:36)

It's exactly what I want to be part of in the future. I want everyone in a vulnerable situation, especially people with a refugee background, to begin in a country and get all the information they need to have this life with integrity where they can, you know, build something that they actually want. We also want the society to come in and take a collective responsibility for inclusion and integration, that we have to stick together and also break the cycle of passing on trauma while giving them information and make sure that they are empowered to create their own path without passing any traumas. To.

B (46:34)

Is this right you bring migrants and local people together? Is that right to. To share, to share information? Is that what happens?

C (46:42)

To share knowledge? Exactly. Life experience. No expertise, just life experience. And to help them have a more sense of feeling of this community and to. To make sure that you learn, you learn from another perspective in a more community inclusive way rather than in an office where it, again, feels like something that you have to achieve so you fit in.

B (47:15)

And I think, how do you get them together?

C (47:18)

We go to refugee camps and we call out the society and tell them, hey, if you have any knowledge, if you, if you're a mother, if you're a father, if you work in that area or you've ever applied for anything like that, please come to us situation with us for an hour or two, grab a coffee, grab a piece of cake or whatever, because Love goes through the stomach, right? And so community, that's how we build community and share. Share your experience. And that's how people meet on an eye level, and that's how we break cycles.

B (48:04)

And is it working very.

C (48:06)

Yes, it is working very well. People always tell us this is the first time we truly feel seen, we truly feel heard. And it's not like we're sitting in an office and learning. It's actually talking to, you know, a friend of mine, I think, I mean, always. But we're all brothers and sisters and this is something that comes. It doesn't.

A (48:32)

It.

C (48:32)

It truly feels like I. I still remember a mom's telling, I don't know how to raise my children in Switzerland because back home, if they don't listen, I, you know, they just need one slap and then they'll never do it again. And here we have to come again and tell. Yeah, I know it might have worked in your country, but let me tell you, it will be. It will end up in a different way if you do it here, but what can you do otherwise? And that's when we bring mothers together and just to share the experience. Lovely. Build friendships.

B (49:10)

I loved talking to you and as I said, like a stock record, full of joy, full of. Full of awe and respect for what you've done, and may you always retain that. That joy that you have. Thank you so much.

C (49:26)

So much.

A (49:29)

My guest today was Mirusia from Zurich in Switzerland, and her organization, Hand for Hand. That's hand number four. Hand is, I think, a very clever way of getting particularly new migrants and refugees together with local people to listen to one another, to voice those unspoken expectations of values, of norms, of fears, and most important, of day to day. How those unspoken expectations become spoken. Hand for Hand, I think, really understands that it's in the unspoken that divides are created. And the bridge is best built not only by experts and officials, but by and with ordinary people. If you need to know more, don't hesitate to get in contact. And a platform you might also like to look up is Waves to Home. That's Waves to home, all1word.org and if you enjoyed or valued this podcast, please share it with your friends and networks and tell me what you think. In fact, do what you can to make these voices heard. I'm Stephen Barden. This has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey.