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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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Welcome to Migrant Odyssey and to the third in our miniseries featuring extraordinary, ordinary people from Lebanon. What most people in relatively peaceful and settled environments don't quite get, and why should they, is that the disruption of lives, whether by wars, migration, violence, or even just extreme uncertainty, can spread very wide as well as very deep. You'll certainly have seen and understood the major impacts of the current wars, deaths, bombing, torture, disease, and millions of people either fleeing or being crushed. We've all seen all of that. We can choose to ignore it, but we have seen it. But what we don't see is how the undoing of lives of the survivors, whether in their home countries or in their countries of refuge, seeps into every crack of what we call normality. Even if Those survivors escape 5,000 miles away from the scene of the crime, that knot in the solar plexus, braced for shock, never really leaves. Neither does that rush of panic when a loved one is five minutes late or doesn't answer your WhatsApp message. That guilt that whispers that you survived because you didn't do enough to stop the horror, or you weren't brave enough to stay, or you weren't worthy enough to be taken by God. The guilt of not being enough. Not enough back home and not enough in your new home. Your doctorate, your medical training, even your knowledge of your own country. Not enough. Your 30 years of teaching? Not enough. Your fluency in Arabic, Urdu, Spanish or Kigongo Irrelevant. We've seen in this series how the experiences of dislocated parents are inherited by their children. The panics turning into rage, the fear of tenderness in case it makes their children too vulnerable. The humiliation of the mother or father at work turned into tyranny or paralysis at home. These distortions live beyond one or two generations. That drive of the migrant parents to work all hours to safeguard their children is often interpreted by those very same children who have never felt unsafe as neglect by their parents. You were never there for me. The striving of the parents to belong and to make sure their children belong to the new society works so well that too often those children become the loudest voices to stop new refugees and migrants. I'm one of you, not one of them. Fear, uncertainty, insecurity does not, over time, as we keep on being told, become normalized. Rather, the fearful, the uncertain and the insecure become abnormal. Normalized. That permanent knot in the pit of your gut may be understandable when you're braced for another drone attack in Beirut or Tehran. But why is it still there, 20 years after moving to New England or Switzerland. And don't think that we, the privileged ones, born and raised in the more peaceful, settled countries, are not affected when we shut ourselves off from the suffering of others, whether they are 10 or 5,000 miles away. That's not normal for any sentient being. That's us abnormalizing ourselves. The undoing of people's lives by wars and divisions seeps into all lives, wherever they may be. Today's guest was born and grew up in Beirut. Although she left Lebanon nearly 20 years ago and now lives in Switzerland with her two daughters. The disruption and the cracks in even the smallest parts of her life linger on. But to paraphrase Leonard Cohen, the cracks. That's how the light gets in. Have a listen and you may be able to hear that light getting in. Oh, and by the way, in case you get totally confused by all the places Souad mentions in Beirut, I've put a map in the notes which I hope will help. Thank you for being on the podcast. Delighted to see you again. And I hope this is going to be a great conversation for you as well as for me.
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A
And thank you for having me. Let's see. I think we can judge that after we're done.
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B
After we're done. Quite right, quite right. You were born basically in the middle of the Lebanese civil war. Tell me if I can just jump straight in and then we'll talk about other things. What was your. Your very first memory that you had as. As a child, in fact, as a toddler of that. Of that time?
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A
Well, I was born in 79, so you have to specify which civil war also because we have so many.
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B
There was the 75 one and then there was the 82 one. I know. This is the 75. Yeah.
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A
And the 90s.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
So, I mean, I have quite a few. But I think the one that stuck with me is when I got evacuated from my first school under some shooting because I also. It changed my life dramatically because I also had to change schools after that. And yeah, it affected the. My life to this day.
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B
So where were you? Sorry? Where were you at? Let's just paint a picture. Where were you, you know, before the incident and then what happened and then where did you go?
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A
So the school is called the In. So it's between the west side and the east side, basically, and it's a privileged school, you know. But then I had to, basically after my mom was traumatized and my dad, both of them, because they had to evacuate all of us and she couldn't handle the stress and she just told my dad, let's move them to a school next to our home, which happens to be in Daura. So like for people who don't know where that is, next to Djemazi, but like further down east. And so I went from a completely open school, no religion, mixed female, male, to a non Catholic private school where we had to pay because in this day we didn't have to pay. My mom was a teacher, so we all could go for free. We had cousins there who actually stayed, decided to stay, but we moved. And yeah, that was a bit of a shock first because it was ladies only and everyone was like, very hush hush. And it was Christian. It was full on. Everyone was Christian. Unfortunately in Lebanon you have to mention these things and. And I have a very Arabic name. So every time I would say my name, they will all turn and look at me because I have a very Arabic name and it's not like a saint's name, like Teres or Rita or, you know. So it's very odd when they ask me also where I come from and I happen to be from another confession as well. So they told me, for example, just to tell you how separated we are since that I don't have to go to the chapel on Fridays because I'm Greek Orthodox and they are like Maronite and Catholics. So if I don't want to, I don't have to. And I'm like, now I know in my head, like, you know, we came first. But then. Yes, I never said that. I didn't know I was six. In fact, I. Because another quick thing. Orthodox have their baptism when they first are born. And then with the Catholic school, all my friends had to do a communion. So I also had to ask my parents, can I do it again? Click. Sure, if you want. You know, So I had to, you know, wear the white robe and go down the aisle.
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B
You just wanted to wear the white robe and go down the aisle?
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A
Yeah, yeah, I think I wanted to relate to belong in a way. Yeah, yeah.
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B
The journey, as it were, from. From Beirut to this, to your. To your village was quite traumatic, was it not?
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A
No, this was not in a village. This is. We're still discussing this.
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B
We're still in Beirut. Okay. So. Okay, yes.
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A
The other time we had to move was in the 90s, and then we had to leave because it was the war between. It was the civil war between the Lebanese forces and the Lebanese army. And. And we had to flee to my village. My village is in what you call Metin, so it's North. Yeah. And I had to go to summer school for a while. So I don't have to repeat the whole year and again for a whole winter because it wasn't very safe to go. To go back. Yeah. That journey I was a bit more aware I was older. So.
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B
Tell me about that.
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A
I mean, I don't. Okay. We had to. At one point, we had to wear a lot of our clothes on top of each other because we had to flee and we couldn't carry stuff. My mother was pregnant with my brother and I have three other sisters. And cars were not allowed to drive freely, basically. So we had to walk from our house in Daura almost to Antelies. I don't know if people know that's like on the way to Junior or whatever, but my village will be up.
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B
Sorry to interrupt. How far would that have been?
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A
Yeah, I mean, I don't know in kilometers. But I would take easily couple of hours of walking.
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B
Yeah.
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A
To find a taxi who would actually take us after taking a lot of money. I think back then it was like a hundred dollars or a bit more just to drive us a little bit up again to stop at another checkpoint, Syrian this time, to walk. To walk to reach our village house, basically. But. Yeah, but now that I think about it, with what's happening now, at least we are lucky we had a place to go that. That's ours. You know, we're not begging people or staying on the streets. So. Yeah.
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B
And when you were walking to this place, you told me when we first spoke about.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You used the image of the three of the. Not the three, the ducks walking behind your. Your father and your mother.
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A
Yes, it was. And my mom was. Was praying all the time and telling us, please shut up, please don't say anything. And she was saying, yadra. So, Mary, and because people were dying, you had snipers as well, who probably were. Most probably were on drugs. So sometimes they would just shoot. But what I remember is I. I had to look on the. On the right side. I'm curious by nature. And so I saw this. What do you call it? You helped me with the word the other time. You know, the Tom and Jerry landmine, the round one that has. Yeah. Like a top bottom. It was on the right side. And next to it I saw a hand. It was the left hand of someone. Chopped, but not directly. It was a bit diagonal. And I remember he was married. I mean, it looks like it was a male hand and it had the ring on it. So that stayed with me a little.
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B
The Village that.
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A
Amongst others.
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B
Sorry, the village that you went. And I must. I need to give you some time to pause as well, but the village that you went to, where you had the home was that the village which had been in fact completely mixed in terms of its. Everybody, all religions and all.
- [14:53]
A
Yes. I mean the. I would say in, in terms of percentage, you will find probably a higher, higher percentage of Christians living there. But because of the, the Syrian party that we have, the Lebanese Syrian party, Antun Saada was the name of the guy who created. Was a non religious party. So a lot of people there belonged to that party. So they would marry each other, which wasn't common at all in Lebanon. It still is not common. And yeah, and my village, they celebrate Easter together. So the Catholic and the Orthodox, they started doing that I think 10 years ago to celebrate together. So every year they choose somebody's date and celebrate together. It's a village of poets and writers as well. It's known for that. So I guess it helps somehow. And pine trees, a lot of pine trees. Yeah.
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B
What's your happiest memory there?
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A
Actually, funny enough, the year we spent in the winter, the school. Because it was the first time I see snow and we didn't have to go to school because of snow one day and I was like, actually I could walk to my school because in Beirut you don't have that. Your parents have to take you or you have the bus, the school bus. Not any bus because for years we didn't have buses. And it was walking to school with my, you know, neighbors and sisters, which is what my kids do now in Switzerland, in a way. Yeah, I would say that. And everybody knows everybody. So I guess community, because while walking they know who you are, Bintmin. They tell you you're the daughter of who and then you just say the family name and then they know you, they know your aunt, they know everyone. It's. It's funny. Yeah. Ab. You could go to the, to the shop and buy something or if you don't have enough or whatever, it's like, it's okay, go. I know. You know they know who you are. Yeah. This. This I miss a lot. You feel safe?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Tell me something about your. Your. Your mother and your father and your. And. And your siblings.
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A
Something. So my parents are still in Beirut and my brother as well with his family, but the rest of us are spread around the world, including other cousins and as well. But I have a sister in Canada, I have two in Athens and I'm in Switzerland, so It's been years. We haven't met all of us together for Christmas or any other holiday or even summer. It's been years. Yeah.
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B
Do you.
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A
I don't even recall the last time.
- [18:42]
B
Yeah. Do you, I mean, do you, do you talk to each other a lot on, On Zoom Phone, whatever we do,
- [18:51]
A
I wouldn't say a lot, but that's because I am that person. I. Because if I open a conversation or, I don't know, a political conversation or whatever, I just, I argue and we don't always agree. But now, now that I think about like when I speak to my brother sometimes and he's like, how do you know you don't live here anymore? So in a way I do understand the heaviness of what they are going through because I've went through something similar years ago. But I think times have changed a lot, wars have escalated a lot and there is only so much you can take. So yeah, maybe it's. I shouldn't be judging. Maybe I shouldn't be judging. Why are you not doing that or you should stop doing that? Because it's different when you judge or give advice versus when you're actually living something like you are in the middle of
- [20:13]
B
Depends, doesn't it? I mean, it's the age old dilemma between the exile and the person who's actually inside the country of place, particularly of a place of conflict where the person on the outside clearly is going to have opinions and thoughts. But can you judge or can you give advice? I mean that is the issue. Can you judge? You can certainly voice opinions because your ideals remain, what you believe is right for the country remain. But it's. There's things that people have to do to stay alive inside the country. That's probably important.
- [20:58]
A
Yes, because I'm not really. I mean I am somehow paying the price indirectly, but it's not the same as being there now. So yes, because it's affecting me dearly. I can't go visit. My kids cannot go visit. Maybe that's why.
- [21:21]
B
Why can you not go visit?
- [21:26]
A
I mean, personally I could, but to be honest, now that when I became a mother I became more sensitive and responsible. So I'm scared that something could happen because you. They are on a killing spree and they could decide to bomb the airport, you know, or stop the roads, I don't know. And so I have to go back to my kids, but my kids cannot go because in my divorce decree they have decided to add a clause that says unless ada, which is the Ministry of Foreign affairs of Switzerland deems the country as safe. My kids cannot visit. Yeah. So they've only been months. They've only been one. One time. Because Lebanon is never safe. Yeah.
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B
Your. Your father, your father was. You said your mother was a teacher. Right. And your father was a banker. He was in. He didn't say this, but you told me last time your father was a banker. And then of course, after all this shenanigan was going on, he couldn't work. Could you tell us something about that?
- [22:44]
A
Yeah, I don't remember the specific years, to be honest, but you know, because in the 90s there was also a wave of corruption. Not, not that it stopped ever, but there was an issue with the Lebanese lira versus the US Dollars. And let's say there were shenanigans happening in most of the banks. And my dad at that time was an internal auditor, so he had to sign some things to go through and he refused to sign anything. That's not that he doesn't approve of. And so he lost his job and after that, of course, the reputation. Why he lost his job so other banks wouldn't hire him as well. Plus the fact that after the Ta' if Accord, the whole country was kind of dissected into religion and confessions. And you had. Because he applied to the central bank like he, he was, let's say, experienced enough to have such a position. Not the head, but I mean, to be recruited. But he was refused because the quota for the Greek Orthodox was already taken. So we have quotas and I think since the 90s until now, we are paying the price for that. Because even if you were not religious before or you did have this mentality per se, now it's like it's inflicted in you. I don't know if that's the right word to use. English is not my second language even. But yeah, so they make you think like that because you have to think like, for example, you can be the most decent person on the planet and qualified, but you can never be the president in, in Lebanon unless you are a Maronite, specifically a Maronite. You know, the prime minister is always Sunni, the head of the parliament is always Shia. And. Yeah, and I mean we've inherited this for a long time. But it was really impressed upon in. In the T Accord and the Ta
- [25:11]
B
Accord was of course, the one was. That was done in. In. In Saudi Arabia.
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A
Saudi Arabia, yeah. Yeah.
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B
And that's where it tried apparently to balance things, but actually probably made them even more segmented. That's right, isn't it?
- [25:27]
A
There's no such thing as a free lunch. I don't think they tried to do anything. They tried to buy land and they were sending money and they wanted to control the government. And I told you I'm going to say everything, so I'm going to just say.
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B
And you. So your father couldn't, couldn't work for a long time, right?
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A
Five years. Yeah, five years.
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B
And what did that do to him?
- [25:58]
A
To him and to us? I mean to him, I think it was a dent in his self confidence for sure. And he was double angry because for him this is how I was raised. The good should win. Like why, why isn't he winning and how come the wrong people are winning, you know, and of course his ego and values and all that. It must have been very hard. But it affected the whole family because a man who doesn't work at home is also very. Because he was a manager. So he tried to manage us and the house and he tried to, you know, make things go his way. So it was clearly devastating on, on so many levels. And he had to. My grandma used to live with us, so she was helping us a little bit financially as well because in Lebanon private schools are quite expensive and we were like five and my aunt also helped us from Canada. So yeah, it was difficult and we had to work. Like eventually I, I was 17, I was working already, working and studying in parallel. But also my sister started working early so we were all helping ever since, like. Yeah, I mean eventually he found a job again, but he had to make wasta, we say in Lebanon, reach out to people, you know. Yeah, that's a wasta. It's. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:44]
B
And. And your mother did she did she carry on teaching?
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A
She did, but then she stopped. She had a burnout for a while, she stopped and she, she worked again for a few years and then she stopped.
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B
Yeah, it was. It's the thing, of course we don't talk about or it hasn't been talked about is the long term effect these endless wars and these endless conflicts have had on, on, on, on Lebanon. I assume it certainly affected you, hasn't it?
- [28:25]
A
Absolutely. I don't know how to heal all this because as I was saying last time also, and to quote Gabor Matti, because it's not mine, there's no post partum because we're still in it. The Palestinians and us are still in, I'm sure maybe other places in the world as well. So I don't know how to deal with it. And we kind of normalize a lot of things that are not normal. For example, Lebanese are known for their joie de vivre, okay? And we have loads of it. But I think we from the 90s, if not the 70s, I would say 90s, because I know more of that era. We used it to be in denial, right? Like, okay, you're bombing me. I mean, I remember there was Israeli airplanes on top and I went to Hamra to see a friend of mine and I was smoking a joint and drinking and I was giving them the finger. And I'm like, because I'm not going to stay home for you. I'm not going to die miserable at home. And it is a form of resistance. Yes, but when you use it a lot, you're also escaping something, I think, because what are you doing about it? Okay, they're not getting to you, but you're kind of harming yourself in a way. And I think the biggest problem is that we all learn to live short term. Lebanese people don't know how to plan to live long term because. And I'm talking at least two to three generations, because you can't plan anything. You kind of know, you're waiting for the shoe to drop, as they say, you know, a war might come or something might happen. And you're like, why should I plan? Why should I save money? That's why you see a lot of spending. I mean, I advise you one day in your life, hopefully soon, to go visit. So maybe you'll understand more what I mean. You will see the latest cars, you will see the latest trends. You will see people like we discussed last time doing aesthetic plastic surgery. Everyone has, everyone goes out to restaurants, they do their nails, they always look nice. That's a topic we can discuss further. That became sick, I think. But we love life as well. But part of it is planning. For example, I think after living in Switzerland, I started focusing on how many green areas they have in the cities. And we lost all of them. All of them. It's like a concrete jungle. And Beirut used to be absolutely beautiful. Lebanon still has some beautiful places, but as a city, you can barely walk from concrete. There are no parks where you can sit and chill, for example. And I think because we don't plan, you want quick money, you want quick fixes. So if you have a parking, then you say, oh, okay, I will make a building, for example, if instead of making or a parking, makes money more than a park, because a park is free or a building so you can rent it to make money. And we think in short term, and we Became kind of selfish as well. That's why you see for example, now people saying, yeah, but this is happening in the south here it's fine because I see some friends going out and I'm like, how can you, like how can you party at such a time? I mean, the country is bleeding and it's like, yeah, but that's far away in the south and Lebanon is 10,452 kilometer square kilometers. So it's not so far. But yeah, or they answer you what can I do? I. I can't do anything. Do I sit, if I sit in the house and cry with this end? And if you think about it, they all make sense, all the answers make sense. But until we start thinking as a community, as like the love of land comes first, not confession or your religion or. I think we will never be a country. Unfortunately I'm saying it with a heavy heart, but I don't think we can ever be a country. We just be people inside the country which was suggested by the Lebanese. Far right, let's do Cantones back. And that's why was one of the reasons of the war.
- [33:41]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, I understand entirely what you're saying and I think as long as you've got this, you've got this almost double hammer, haven't you? One is this trying to escape by simply blinding oneself by either partying or just saying it's far away. And the other bit, of course, where everything has been so fragmented according to religion, according to class, according to area, according to all those things that it must be so difficult, if not impossible, to create a community unless it's done right at the very local level. Again, unless it spreads from the local level.
- [34:34]
A
Yes, and sorry to interrupt you, but because they're all things I've been thinking about for the longest time also I think individually we have to change individually because I hope the new generations sees it maybe a bit better because, you know, due to meditation and all the cool stuff, you were all one and yoga and stuff. If you're all one, you have to work on yourself as well. Because if you take what your parents have told you, because let's say they were hurt. Let's say I live next to a neighbor and this neighbor, someone killed her dad, okay? And she knows who that person or who that party is. So it's really fresh, right? Like it's not something you forget even if you forgive and all that. It takes a lifetime to heal, if ever. And then it's kind of understandable where she comes from but she also has to think or we have to think again long term. Like if you don't forgive or maybe don't forget, but if you and even forgive but try to find a way for you to have a better life because that affects the person directly. And for us it's on a social level. Like I cannot keep on bringing the same card every time somebody speaks. Yeah, but you killed us in the 90s and you took our money and you. Yes, we all killed each other. Let's get over it. You know, we all made mistakes and I think our so called leaders, quote unquote should all be judged the same way because they all made mistakes with and it cascaded down to their own communities. And if you see your leader as your idol and you follow everything they say, that's another problem that you as an individual need to start having analytical thinking like yes, I follow you or I vote for you. If you're saying something that I resonate with the moment you don't, I stop following you. I don't follow you just because I follow you. But I think again we have to link the economical problem because a lot of people who follow blindly are because they follow, because they get either money or something done to them. Again, wasta what I told you, like you know people who know people and then you start doing it for your own benefit. You don't think long term or the effect that it does to everybody else. You're thinking about yourself and the revolution I think should be done in the way we think. And unless we do that, we cannot sit with each other. So I told you last time I was planning a dinner. It's still happening, but with less people this Friday. So I'm bringing two people from different religions who believe almost totally the opposite. And we're having dinner at my place to discuss that. And, and they're all like what's the objective? And like we gonna sit together and we. I want you to tell her because I'm in the middle. I being who I am, where I come from, I understand both and I have friends from both sides and I want them to, to tell each other why you don't relate with her and why you don't relate with her and why we should still be different but relate to the land like or relate to our objective for this absolutely mesmerizing country. It's so sad. I mean I remember a few years ago I was so, so, so angry. There were some sort of elections and I was yelling at my friends. Back then there was only Facebook, I think. And I was like, I curse you all. I hope you all migrate so you understand what Lebanon means. Because I was like, you don't deserve this country. We don't. We don't. We. A lot of us don't deserve this country. And you don't know something unless you lose it, as they say sometimes. So I'm like, with all its problems and errors and, I don't know, corruption, you name it. Like, we have. I have a long list of why you shouldn't love this country. It's, it's magical. And really I'm, I'm being objective. It's not because it's my country. I've traveled a lot because I worked. At some point I was a fashion buyer. So I was going around the world, like Europe, New York, whatever. And I like a lot of places as well, but I cannot put my hand on it. And I'm sure if you speak to other Lebanese, they will tell you the same. There is something magical about this country. Maybe it's the energy, the location, the weather, the messed up people in the head. I don't know, the diversity in such a small place. But it's a gift. It was a gift to us. And yeah, we should value it as such. I think we're losing it. I think it's the first time I can say we're actually. I'm gonna cry. Yeah,
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B
It's. It is, however, understandable, isn't it? Unless you can get them and get people out of this cycle. Because if they have been for over 50, 60 years plagued by these endless wars that have been prodded and stimulated and caused both from the outside and the inside, and therefore life becomes precarious. And then people are going to go, okay, we're going. We need to be, for the short term. Short term starts creating, creating all sorts of things, like not caring that you don't have parks, but. But also making sure that you have as much money as possible. Because I'm in here for the short term, taking shortcuts, all that goes on and it just gets. The cycle gets tighter and tighter and tighter. So unless one is able to sort of say both at the top and at the bottom, we do care. This is what we do care about. This is what we do have in common. So, you know, it's almost in a funny sort of way, a magnification of what you're doing at dinner, bringing people together and saying, what is it that you do care about?
- [42:15]
A
Exactly. I think we should at least have one or two objectives, like the Same if we at least look. I mean, they say the relationships that succeed are the ones who are looking in the same direction. At least we should have one thing in common. Like to agree that this land is ours. This only little piece of a sentence, you know, I wish I can do it on a bigger scale. Yes, but it will, it will. I will. I will do it.
- [42:52]
B
I'm sure you will.
- [42:53]
A
You always start small. Yeah.
- [42:55]
B
So this, this hanging on to old grievances, this hanging on to old. To grievances. They're not old because it's still continuing. But this hanging on to grievances, you killed me and I killed you, etc. Etc. Is that being encouraged by the political factions or is it just because it's so raw that they can't let go?
- [43:22]
A
No, it is being encouraged, but I. But only by the. It's a minority. It's a minority on both sides. Because I'm following. I mean, I don't have television. It's been six, seven years on purpose. I'm like, I'm not going to get the news from someone who's paid to say it. And I follow people directly. Right. Like Instagram helps and there is a lot of change happening. People are more aware. I don't. Some of them, because they're tired. They'd be like, okay, let's stop this because they're tired. But it doesn't matter, we want to stop it anyway. And some are like, no, they are aware, like, I don't belong here because you are really fanatic to me. And like, like right wing. And you also. I don't, like, I don't want Iran and I don't want Israel. If, if you want to say it as it is now, Right. I want Lebanon, but a lot of people died because of that. Like ex presidents and ministers and when they said that. But I think we should all say it. And as people, we should not be waiting for this country to help us or this country to help us. We are a very small country. Yes. And we don't really produce anything. So we have to. I mean, we have gas now everyone's fighting.
- [44:47]
B
You used to make the most wonderful, most wonderful wine. I'm sorry, it was just the most.
- [44:53]
A
Oh, we still do. No, the wine. We still do. But I mean enough, enough for the, the whole, you know, to survive. Funnily enough, you know, the country lives off a lot of money from migrants that, that are being sent into the country from their own Lebanese people. Yes, we. But we don't need help because you have A lot of educated people. You have a lot of people who live abroad who are willing to come back. Like I would come back in a second. Me and others, everyone I talk to, if we don't have issues, everyone I know will come back to Lebanon. And a lot of family members I have who left in the 60s and 50s, like aunts and uncles, they all want to come back. They all send money, they all buy land, and they want to be buried there. You have, I think, when. It's a bit poetic, but that's Lebanese as well, or Arabic. I think when the soil gets mixed with the blood, the connection is much stronger to. I don't think I've ever seen anyone love their country the way I love my country, or Lebanese in general love their country. Like we. We are dying for it. Okay, Palestinians, obviously, but, you know, like, very few people. I. The other day I was talking to a Swiss and I'm like, so if you get invaded by the Germans, do you think you would fight for your country? I don't think so. I think they will pack and leave. I mean, they leave because of the weather sometimes. Do you know that? Or they leave because the money, the pension money will be so much better somewhere else. So it's just pack and leave. And I think Lebanon, I never thought of leaving except after many wars. And like, I've had it. But otherwise you have everything you need. The weather is fantastic and it's different between regions. The fauna and flora, the. You can travel everywhere. You have the Mediterranean, you have lakes, you have mountains, ski. It's incredible. I don't know. You have to visit. You have to promise me that you will visit.
- [47:09]
B
If I live long enough. I promise you I will visit.
- [47:14]
A
What do you mean? No, Come on. Next year we're supposed to be having peace at the moment. Ceasefire.
- [47:22]
B
So you said you. You came to a point where you thought after many wars you'd had enough, and you. Then you went and worked outside the country, didn't you? Originally, that's what it was. It was going to work outside. It wasn't leaving, it was going to work outside the country. And then. Then a whole series of things happened.
- [47:45]
A
Yes, on that level and on a personal level. Yes.
- [47:48]
B
Yeah.
- [47:48]
A
But initially I. I moved with the same company I was working with. I moved to the Dubai office for a while. Then I came back one year, and then I moved back again. Yeah.
- [48:02]
B
And it doesn't end there, does it? Then what happened then?
- [48:07]
A
Oh, okay, okay. So it was Beirut, Dubai and then Beirut and then Amsterdam. But Amsterdam was For love.
- [48:17]
B
For love, initially.
- [48:19]
A
For love, yes.
- [48:21]
B
It's a good reason to move. Possibly.
- [48:23]
A
It's very. For me, it's the only reason to move. It was, I mean, the, the job thing, I thought it was going to be two months and then it stretched a bit longer. That's why I came. But. Yeah, but then being Lebanese in Holland as well, you know, the passport, like, I mean, I moved. He, he was my boyfriend before I got married and so you could move. Having a boyfriend, you didn't, but you had to do some paperwork because of my passport, you know. And again, you have to do, you know, like you have to have a. How do you call it, residency or a visa where you can work. But then my name is very, my name is very Arabic, my family name as well. So after 9, 11, that did not help. I've been stopped on airports a couple of times doing random checks and when you send your cv, so I. It wasn't mandatory to put your pictures, but I was putting my picture just so they see that I'm not veiled. Because in. Not a lot of them want to, let's say, hire someone who's veiled. But my family name would. Yeah, it's confusing, that's all. And so I didn't find a job for a while as well. And I was. And the weather depressed me totally, so that kind of affected my relationship as well. And then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, let's move. Then my ex lost his job and let's move to Dubai again. So I moved to Dubai with him and then he left and then I stayed. Dubai was easier because there was a lot of Lebanese people living there and already I had cousins and friends. It's like a second home to a lot of Lebanese because we've been working there for years and years and years, especially in the industry. Like I moved with advertising initially. Actually the industry was created by Lebanese, the media and advertising in the uae.
- [50:45]
B
What do you say, can I just ask, what do you say to your brother when he says, but you don't know, you don't live here. What do you say to him?
- [50:55]
A
I say, you're right, because he is. I mean, it's a fact. But I also try to explain how it affects me because like, I can't go because you're doing that. And if you. I tell him I put maybe some responsibility on him. I'm like, if you were raised in the values that I know because we were raised in the same house, is thinking like this, what do I expect from others. I'm, in a way disappointed. I mean, I'm. I understand the situation, but. But I cannot not be angry. And he also gets it. He gets where I come from. Yeah. Then I try to take the other angle where people are more cerebral and you're like, you know, if the country's gone to shit, everything you own in the country will go to shit as well, because he owns land and real estate. Right. So if you're. It will affect your future and the future of your kids as well. So it's not only direct safety, let's say you want to think of it from a business perspective and not emotional. It's the same. People will not come and invest as well if the corruption is to the roof. I mean, the recent years, our reputation was completely, completely devastated to the extent that I wanted to bring my father to visit here. And it was the first time they asked me for bank details and for sponsorship paper for at least 20,000 francs. So now for a visit for a tourist visa for my own parents or friend or whoever. You need to show that you are the one who has so much money because they come from Lebanon and they know that the banks have stopped giving people their money in banks and they, they blocked a lot of accounts. So we've never had that as Lebanese. I mean, they. It's humiliating. Yeah, that's how I felt.
- [53:04]
B
Yeah. You're talking, of course, about values and you're talking about trying to maintain values and trying to maintain some sort of values and morality. How do people feel where. You've got, you've got Palestinians, you've got the warring, all the warring facts, but you've got Palestinians, you've got Hezbollah, you've got, you know, you've got the Druze, you've got the Maronites of blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. How does that, how do you actually live, do business work, when there are all those people coming together? How does that operate? Or is that a stupid question?
- [53:48]
A
No, there is no such thing as a stupid question.
- [53:51]
B
There is. I've just asked you one.
- [53:54]
A
No, no, because I think when it comes to business, I think a lot of people don't think like that. Maybe because we have Phoenician ancestry. I don't know the. They're commercial by. By heart, so it's in our DNA to do business. Of course, I, I think some prefer to do business together, especially the right wing in, In a certain area. Like, they're really stuck to each other. Some of them have never been to the other Side, like, I have friends who've never visited the other side. But I think when it comes to business, it really isn't an issue as such. And in my humble opinion, in every religion there are good people and bad people. I don't think. I think the fact that we generalize is stupid. That's the only stupidity that came out of the question would be like, I cannot say these Shia are all bad or the Maronites are all bad. I mean, yes, there's no smoke without fire because we do it to nationalities as well, right? Like you would say. I mean, you have a certain nationality where you have this preconceived idea about someone, but it doesn't mean that all of them are like that. So I think it would be wrong to think, to generalize, let's say. But a lot do business together, a lot. I told you, it's a minority. The people who think, who are still in their cocoons are a minority. And to me, let's dive a little bit into religion. As a Christian, any type of Christian, you're supposed to be raised on love and you're supposed to love your enemy. If you understand anything about your religion and if you want to say it in two words, this is it. Love one, love and love, your enemy would be the other one. So whenever a Christian comes out and say, it's not my war, I don't care if they're dying, for me, it's like, shut the up. Basically, you're not a Christian, full stop. There's no argument, there's no gray area. You don't want to be like, you're scared that Iran is going to invade you. And some people are scared women that they're going to veil you. I understand your fear, although I think it's stupid. But let's say I understand it, but you cannot hate the other person, or at least do not rejoice when they die, because that makes you evil, not Christian. So for me, my anger towards those people is like, I can't believe you can see a mother, whether veiled or not, exactly what happened in Gaza, right? Like, whether you, you are with Hamas or against Hamas, or even know what Hamas is, because most of them don't know. If you see a mother crying over her kid who's like, I don't know, five days old, or the guy who was carrying his son's in plastic bags, I mean, for sake, I don't care if he's my enemy, if he's my enemy, I wouldn't wish it on my own. Enemy. Especially if I'm Christian. Especially if I'm Christian. Like, I cannot say it enough. It's. It's for me, insane. Insane. Because even if I relate. I don't relate to you in any belief or value or whatever. First of all, you have to follow your own values, right? And I have to sympathize with such. Like, it's animals. I mean, animals eat each other, right? Because this is nature. But I think also they defend. You can see animals defending each other or at least feeling something. So imagine a human being. But if I want to be true, right? I'm not happy when I see people wailing because they lost someone. I'm a mother. And if I see a parent losing a kid for me, if my daughter is five minutes late from school, I'm in a total panic mode. That's because of my background, also of safety and stuff. But let alone someone who just lost their family members or everything they own or a limb, I mean, do you. Can you. Even if you put yourself five seconds in the shoes of that person, what do you. How do you feel? Yeah, it transcends Palestine and Lebanon. Sudan. Why is nobody talking about Sudan? Why is it not in the media? Why? Because Africa have been starving for years. Do you remember any ad on the plant? Like, I still get papers in my mailbox. Donate to Africa. Africa is not poor. Africa is the richest country in terms of resources. Pinpoint the problem. Tell who actually colonized and is taking African money and stop putting them as victims. It's insulting. I'm infuriated when I see this. I'm like, stop. Because now you link. Whenever you see a black person or a black kid, it's always to send them money. And he's probably happier than you. I've been to Nepal and I've seen people without shoes. I've seen kids without shoes playing football with a magazine paper. They made a football. I was doing a hike and there was a little shop, so I got some chocolate and one kid ran to me. So I gave him the chocolate. You know what he did? He called all his friends and he gave a piece to each. And I was like, flabbergasted, if I might use the word, because, oh, my God. And they know about life more than people who have everything in. In my opinion. And, yeah, I just don't. I want us to stop associating Arabs and Africans. Not all Arabs, because some Arabs, they are associated to being rich, right? To. To a certain. How do you say, Stereotyping. Stereotyping. We all have that like in Arab is this or.
- [60:57]
B
Yeah. And stereotyping, of course, is the same as ultimately is the same illness that goes. It's not my war. It's the same stereotype. It's exactly the same illness. It's not my war is the same.
- [61:11]
A
I was talking to a journalist, to a journalist friend here and. And he's like, when, when they. The first Iran thing happened with. And he's like, it's not my region because he's focused on Europe. And I'm like, it is. Oh, honey, it's coming for you. Because if you think it's happening there. Do you think what happened in Syria didn't affect you? All this migration that happened to Europe didn't affect you? Do you think those people are actually happy here? Did you ever interview any of them? They're not happy. We will all go back in a blink. Our countries are super nice. Nobody wants to leave home for no reason. So don't give me a reason. Ask your government to stop sending money to the people who are killing us. And we don't come to your country. Happily we don't come. Why should we come? We have the sun, the sea, the food. Why? Why would I leave everything and come to the cold? Why not? Seriously, like, why?
- [62:14]
B
Thank you. Thank you so much. It was, it was really good and I was very moved and thank you for. For being exactly what you say.
- [62:27]
A
Thank you. Yeah. And I hope, yeah. Love and peace will eventually win.
- [62:38]
B
That was Lebanese born Suhad talking to me from Switzerland. In the next episode in this series, I'll be looking at another Lebanese life, this time inside the country. Until then, I'm still Stephen Baden and this has been another episode of my migrant odyssey.