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Foreign.
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Welcome to Migrant Odyssey and to the fourth episode in our miniseries, Lebanon Lives. Or depending which way you look at it, Lebanon Lives. Whenever I hear or see news reports on Lebanon, I hear the phrases deeply divided or widening divisions or split between, as in split between for or against Hezbollah. The countries represented as being simply in the accent on, simply fragmented into some sort of tribal or religious differences between Shias, Sunni, Druze, Maronites, and so on, all with or against Hezbollah. But when you talk to ordinary people as we have, they say it's complicated because they know the history behind these divisions and why central government is too fragile to bring them all together. Power, the ability to get things done in the country, has long been vested outside central government. Dating back to Ottoman rule and especially the administrative reforms that followed the 1860 conflict in Mount Lebanon. Power was exercised through systems, local municipalities. The Ottomans got local powerful families to administer and keep order in their home domains, and in return, provided them with the funds to do so. The more effective these families were at keeping the peace and making sure their territory worked reasonably well, the more powerful and wealthy they became, especially as the Ottoman rulers became progressively weaker militarily and financially. If you wanted your streets clean, your business to prosper, or bureaucracy to be helpful, you went to the local seats of power, not to central government. The French, during their colonial mandate over Lebanon from 1920 to 1943, largely maintained that system. It was cheaper. They knew who they were dealing with and they didn't have to stretch themselves to control the whole country. By the time of independence in 1943, the newly elected lawmakers came from, or at least depended on, those local power brokers to be elected. Any national initiatives or laws had to be maneuvered through endless local vested interests. Regional conflicts, Palestinian displacement, civil wars, decades of Syrian intervention and occupation, and of course, the continuing Israeli invasions and occupations all drained resources and weakened central government even further. So those local municipalities not only had to make sure that services and infrastructures were maintained, but they had to find the funds themselves. And increasingly, wealthy businessmen stepped in to fill the gap, taking on not only traditionally local services, but those key areas that central governments normally take care of. Health, emergency services, education, and even law enforcement. And yes, it may be true that corruption or inefficiency is rife in Lebanon, but it's also true that any government with weak finances, weak authority, and a fragile national identity is going to struggle to enforce rules or build effective institutions and governance, especially if it's constantly having to negotiate, maneuver and compromise with multiple power bases both inside and outside Lebanon. This is a country that has been shredded by so many predators. Despite genuine attempts by leading Lebanese figures to create a united nation, some of them have paid with their lives. Many dozens of prominent Lebanese figures have been assassinated since independence, excluding those maimed and injured, and excluding ordinary citizens killed in multiple civil wars and invasions. And while I know that this is far too simple a summary of modern Lebanon, it is the context for the extraordinary ordinary people of the country who we've been lucky enough to talk to in this mini series. I may be intrigued by the powerful and the prominent, but I'm rarely moved. The stories of people who live, struggle, hold together and find joy in their families, their communities, their music, their food and their friends. Now they move the hell out of me. Those so called ordinary people who try to shape their own lives as well as do extraordinary things for others are fascinating and always important to me. They're the ones who bind the hearts of their societies, whether migrant or settled. Today's guest, Mohammed, is certainly extraordinary both in his loyalty to and love for his family and his community, and in the work he does for an equally extraordinary organization that tries, I believe, to heal the wounds of this country. That organization was founded by Rafiq Hariri, a former prime minister who was assassinated in 2005. He set up the Hariri foundation in 1979, working to build and support institutions that the central government struggled and continues to struggle to provide. For nearly half a century, it has been bolstering education, awarding thousands of scholarships and establishing schools. It's built and run social and health care centres. It supports and trains emergency service providers and tries to build the value of citizenship and statehood for all. But first, here's my conversation with Muhammad, today's extraordinary ordinary guest from Lebanon, Mohammed. Thank you so much for being on this podcast. I do appreciate it very much. We met briefly while you were driving from Beirut, I believe, to Sayda with your friends and we did try and cover as much as possible to get to know you. But now's the time for me really to get to know you, I think. Tell me something about you. Where were you born? Tell me something about your family. Tell me about Muhammad.
- [07:25]
A
First of all, thank you, Stephen, for having me. It's really a pleasure. I'm a 28 year old from Lebanon and particularly from Saido. We are very proud Sidonian. Saida is a city that holds more than 6,000 years of living heritage. The old Sidonians remain in Saido and it's really a very nice city. We are very proud to have been the first people that have exported the knowledge, that have exported the goods to all of Europe, across the Mediterranean. And we are very proud to recently have been named the capital of culture and dialogue in the Mediterranean. So it's really a full circle to us here in Saida.
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B
And you were born there, right?
- [08:19]
A
Yes, I was born and raised in Saida. I went to school in Saida, then for the university I went to the Lebanese University in Beirut. I studied biology. First I wanted to get into medicine. Well, that's a nice story. In high school I couldn't make up my mind onto which specialty I would like to go. Sometimes I wanted to become a lawyer, other times I wanted to become a media person, a media spokesperson, a TV presenter. Other times I wanted to become a social worker. Other times I wanted to become a doctor of medicine and md. Sometimes I wanted to become a surgeon. So it all came together and I really couldn't make my mind. So I went into university and studied biology and aims of studying medicine, which I applied twice more than students apply and they only accept 100. So I couldn't make it the both times. So I continued studying biology and I continued my master's in biology. While I was doing my master's in biology, I had the opportunity to volunteer at the Hariri foundation for Sustainable Human Development. And it was an amazing experience for me. I was contributing meaningfully to the foundation and to the impacts that it aims to achieve. Then I had the opportunity to be a staff member of the Hadiri foundation, which I think there I combined all my passions into the job that I'm currently doing. My passion for social work, my passion for media, my passion for medicine, which then I became the public health and wellbeing manager. So it all, it all came to together for me.
- [10:09]
B
You see how you're being guided? You see how you were being guided? You thought you couldn't make up your mind. You just wanted them all, that's all. That's what was going on.
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A
Exactly. I wanted them all.
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B
And you got them. And you got them. So, my friend, so tell me something about your mother, your father and your siblings. Tell me something about the family.
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A
Yeah, so I was born and raised as a family of seven. My mother, my father, my sister and then my late brother, which is seven years younger than me. My grandmother, she was living with us after my grandfather passed. So it was really a nice childhood. We each loved each other and supported one another. So it's a really typical Lebanese childhood. I was one of the top students at school, which I really enjoyed. Being one of the top students. At first, I had to be one of the top students to preserve our scholarship at the school, my sister and I. And then I think this has shaped my personality and life later on at the university and even. Even now while doing my job. I'm such a perfection. I'm such a perfectionist. I always want to be one of the top achievers in my job, which is sometimes hectic, but I really enjoy it. Always pushing the limit and interesting.
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B
That was, that was rooted in the fact that you had to be top in order to preserve your scholarship. So you actually had to do it, correct? Yeah. It wasn't an indulgence. It wasn't the ego saying I want to be top. It was actually you needed to do it in order to preserve your scholarship, right?
- [12:04]
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Yes, exactly.
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B
Can you give me one of the earliest childhood memories that you had that stays close to your heart, good or bad?
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A
Yeah, I think one of the earliest childhood memories that I can remember is my grandfather's. A car. We used to. He had a car which, which was left after he. He passed away. So our family, our wider family, including my uncles, we had to run this car. So on a weekly basis, on weekends, we used to go and drive his car to somewhere special in, in Lebanon, to some place new in Lebanon with all of our family, my mother's cousins and relatives. So I feel the warmth of the family. I can still smell the car. I can still smell and taste my uncle handing us chocolate during the trip. So yeah, it was a happy childhood. Definitely. It's challenges, but overall it was happy
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B
for me and a big extended family, uncles and aunts and grandmother.
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And yes, yes, since my grandmother was, was living with us, so we had all of our uncles come up, come to our house to visit on, on the first days of, on the Ramadan, on the Mother's Day. So it was always our home that's gathering all of our relatives and loved ones.
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B
So the heart, the heart of the, of the family, basically, right?
- [13:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
Wonderful, wonderful. And your connection to Saida, what is what happens when you leave Saida, when you go away and you go to other places and you. Then you come back. Tell me something about that.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah, so. So as I mentioned earlier, I. I really love Said. I belongs in my heart and I, I feel a strong connection to, to Beirut, this magical space that I currently work on and that I feel free whenever I'm in Beirut, whenever I'm depressed, I think I need to Beirut and spend some time there, walk in the streets. Be. It arrived in my car there, I feel better right away. The options, the people in Beirut, it's different. At the same time I feel a special connection to every city and every suburb in Lebanon. Some places that I haven't been there yet, like the north and Akar I've been to South I've been to Said of course the Mount Lebanon, North Lebanon, Batrounj Bil, etc. But I feel a very deep and strong connection to every city in Lebanon. I feel like it's mine, I belong there, some parts of me belong there.
- [15:06]
B
So yeah, and, and Lebanon has always had a, particularly after in, from, from the 50s onwards, sort of always had a mass, a massive amount of people leaving, going and emigrating and you know, I, I used to know when I was a child, used to know so many people from Lebanon who were in, in Africa where I was, where I was born in East Africa doing wonderful business. They were the great business people and probably the most educated and most multilingual people I have ever come across. As a child I remember being massively impressed by Lebanon, Lebanese man particularly who spoke five languages at least and then pretended he couldn't speak any of them because he was a great negotiator. So he used to take his, I think it was his, his daughter or his, his, his daughter with him as, as his so called interpreter. So she would interpret while he was thinking. But he was, so he was fluent in French, in Greek, in Arabic, in Italian and it was just extraordinary. So I was, I was always very, very impressed by the education, the sophistication of, of the people that, that came from Lebanon. You chose to stay in Lebanon. And you said to me actually in a, when, when we briefly met while you were driving home that you fight, you find Lebanon to be a safe place for you, safe place for your heart. Safe place. Is that right?
- [16:47]
A
Yes, yes. You know, Lebanon hasn't always been a safe place for, for everyone. Even I think some of your friends that you, you were mentioning, they had to leave, they had to learn five languages. Survive abroad isn't always by choice. So bearing this in mind, Lebanon with all of the violence and with all of the uncertainties that are going on right now and that have always been going on and it's built into the Lebanese DNA. It still hits different. So the people living here, the connections that you, that you make, the dreams that, that you can achieve here. So sometimes they take longer to achieve, definitely sometimes they are harder to achieve, but they definitely mean, mean more what you name while you are serving your community. While you are serving your loved ones. It hits different. I haven't made my, my mind yet if I will be staying in Lebanon or if I will be leaving in Lebanon. It's, it's always difficult discussion that I referred to over and over again at the moment I decided that I will be staying in Lebanon. But I always think that I need to travel abroad to live the experience of living in solo, of studying a new master's, of pursuing my PhD, of working abroad sometimes. But definitely this is not final. You know, I, I, whenever it's, it's, it should be a period of one year, two years, three years. And then I, I definitely need to come back to Lebanon and, and start up my, my business here and kick start my, my career, whatever. But, but definitely I'm settling down in Lebanon.
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B
Yeah. And we've learned in this brief time we've met that when you can't make up your mind, you're just wanting it all. That's all. That's all.
- [18:50]
A
Exactly.
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B
You'll go and you'll stay.
- [18:53]
A
Exactly. But it's hard to leave everything and go. The connections that you have, the friends, the family, the job, the locations that you have, the networks that you've built over the years, and especially me, I always like to network with people and to build the autonomous networks. For example, my friends and I have created a group with our moms and they always go out together, they always chat together, they always plan. We celebrate each other's birthdays whenever one person is down or they have someone's passing away. So we go out and comfort each other. So it's really nice. And I knew that this group has become successful when they started going autonomous, when we, the kids have stopped creating activities for our moms and they have started coordinating with each other. So these are the things that make you really want to stay in Lebanon. Because we are giving back to our moms that have always dedicated their lives to us and now they feel like they really need us to be with, with them. Because what would it mean if you for them if they have dedicated their lives to their children and we decided to leave?
- [20:26]
B
Yeah, that's quite moving. I see that. I get that. I get that a lot. Yeah. Dare I ask what, how has the current Israeli invasion and attacks, how have they affected you and your family and your city and.
- [20:50]
A
Yeah, so our safe zone has shrink from having a safe region to a safe country, and then to a safe city and then to a safe neighborhood and then recently to a safe home. So this is really, really dramatic. My sister is a dentist and beside her clinic it's been hit two times, both of which she was already there at the clinic. Our neighborhood was bombarded with five mar tires so it was really, really tense. I remember being woken up at 7am when the apartment was hit. We ran into the balcony to check what was going on and we saw the apartment, it was on fire. So I directly sent to the emergency medical services group that I have on WhatsApp because previously I was meeting with them as part of the health network, as part of our work with the Sada municipality at Halili Foundation. So I directly shared with them because it's impossible for them to know in such little time over the news. And they came into the. At the site and then I went down to check if I can do anything, if I can at least monitor how their response. We've always discussed the response in meeting room, but it was an opportunity for me to monitor their response on ground and to evaluate and then to reflect whenever we meet next time. It was really hard seeing the paramedics waiting for the fire to be. To be put off so that they can go upstairs and collect the mortals. It was really hard seeing the family members arriving to the scene one after the other to realize what has happened, some of which were our colleagues. One of the family members is our colleague at Hariri Foundation. So it was really hard on us all.
- [23:04]
B
And why, why are they so.
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A
Sometimes it's.
- [23:07]
B
Sorry, a stupid question, but why are they bombing that your particular neighborhood? I mean, what is their. Do they. I mean, apart from the fact that they're bombing indiscriminately. Why are they bombing? Why do they say they bomb? Because they, they use this, this excuse that they're bombing, I don't know, Hezbollah or whatever. But why would they, why would they attack a neighborhood? For what reason would they attack a neighborhood insider? What even tactical reason would they do that for? Is it pure terror?
- [23:44]
A
I think part of it is pure terror. Another part is they are always attacking people that are with various ties to Hezbollah, to several Islamist organizations. Some, some people till this moment, we don't know why are they being attacked? Is it pure terror? Or are they somehow connected to Hezbollah? To Hezbollah or other militia organization? We don't know for a fact.
- [24:13]
B
And of course that's terror, isn't it? When you don't know that's exactly what the aim of terror is, that you don't know when you're going to be there. And this apartment that was hit was, was what? Right across the road from you was that. What is that? Is that. Yeah.
- [24:28]
A
Yes.
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B
What does that do to you? I mean, you're, you're sounding. You sound enormously. Yeah. Optimistic, realistic, etc. Etc. And, and, and, and you're clearly a gentle person. But what does that do to you? What does that do, this, this witnessing of violence and terror and uncertainty. What does that actually do to you as a human being?
- [25:03]
A
I was very depressed on that day. I remember I couldn't get out of the house. I remember I couldn't go to work. It was on a Sunday. But we had work on that day, especially during the crisis. And I remember I couldn't get out of bed. So it was Ramadan. I only went out of bed to break my fast at the third time in the evening, and then I got back to sleep. So it was a very hard day. But then you have to go back up. There's no time for you to stay down, really. I don't know if this is resilience. This is too much resilience. If this is even bad or if this is even good for us, I don't know. But I just know that we really have to go back up again because we really don't have any other choice. Especially as the people that work in the humanitarian field and in the response field. I really think we have a duty to do.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, there's an echo of what you said earlier on about having to be top because you had to maintain your scholarship. This is having to go back because you have to do the job, you have to carry on. Yeah, no, exactly. Let's move on to. To the Hariri Foundation. Just tell, you know, assume that. That whoever's listening to this knows very little about the foundation. Tell me something about it and then tell me something about the work that it does and then about the work that you do.
- [26:46]
A
Okay, so the Hariri foundation is the foundation that's been established by the late Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri and is now presided by Mrs. Bahia Hariri, Rafik's Hariri's sister. The foundation was established following the exceptional mission of late Prime Minister Rafik Haridi, which he had provided 36,000 scholarships to Lebanese youth during the period between the 1978 up until the 1980s, which this has been analyzed and recorded by academicians as the Hariri choice, and it has widely contributed to decrease the time of the Lebanese civil war. Instead of giving arms to the Lebanese youth, we are giving them education. We are promising a future for them abroad and their families. So this is how it's all started. And today the Haridi foundation aims to build the Lebanese state and to promote the national civil accord, the national identity throughout its various programs of the National State Academy, the youth of the Rise of Lebanon Forum where we prepare youth with the skills needed to build this resilience, to build the dialogue, the social cohesion up until we reach the, the state building and through our first digital development platform in Lebanon. So these are our three flagship programs in addition to other to our development portfolios of the education, of the public health, of the environment, of the economy and social affairs and of the culture.
- [28:29]
B
So it's got a huge orbit, hasn't it? It's got a huge amount of influence. I'm fascinated by this, the nation buildings. So is this an ongoing dialogue to bring people together with a commonality of Lebanon? Is that what the foundation, is that part of the foundation's work to try and just create ongoing dialogue between and amongst different political, religious, et cetera, factions? Is that what happens?
- [29:03]
A
Not just quite that even the development people, even ordinary people and ordinary citizens, even sectoral people. It's more about bringing everyone into the notion of the state and citizenship from
- [29:19]
B
the ground up, basically. Is that what happens?
- [29:21]
A
Yeah, exactly. So we work with individuals, we work with institutions, we work at the policy level with ministries and the presidency of the Council of Ministers with the Parliament. Well, it's, It's a 360 approach.
- [29:36]
B
And this has been going on for how long?
- [29:42]
A
For more than 46 years now.
- [29:46]
B
Forgive this, this is not cynicism, but it seems to me that the company, the country is still fragmented in many ways. Do you think it would have been more fragmented if this work had not been done?
- [30:02]
A
Yes, I really think so. The scholarships that were provided, they were provided regardless of the sect, regardless of the religion. Even today our work with huge diversity of youth, with the huge diversity of stakeholders. So I think this all contributes to building the national state. It's really a long and hard road ahead. But definitely small actions contribute to this.
- [30:34]
B
Absolutely, I agree. I think everywhere and I think the idea of bringing people from the ground up to talk together, never mind where they come from or what they believe in and what political ideals or whatever they have, I think is extraordinary. Just to talk, just to. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And it's still funded, is it by the, by the family, by the, the, the Hariri family or is that what happens?
- [31:10]
A
Yes, it's still funded by the Hariri family. And sometimes we, we join projects as co founders or sometimes we receive funding from specific donors, such as the un, sometimes we co found certain initiatives and projects. So it really depends on, on the
- [31:26]
B
working on and how, how supportive is government, how supportive is government to the foundation? I mean, how much does it, does it, does it give its moral support? I'm not talking about money, I'm talking about how supportive is it.
- [31:41]
A
Definitely it really depends on, on the person and the, the person's willingness to, to cooperate and the person's agreeing to, to our same objectives. But most of the time, yes, especially with Mrs. Bahia on board, it really facilitates this coordination with stakeholders being in charge.
- [32:08]
B
Tell me about the work that you do.
- [32:13]
A
Okay, so currently I'm focusing on three main portfolios at the Hadid foundation, one of which is the Youth of the Rise of Lebanon Forum, which really is our youth engagement platform at the foundation where we engage youth and we build their capacities on various topics, mainly in three tracks which are the policy innovation track, the entrepreneurship innovation track, and the artificial Intelligence innovation track. So our activities vary from capacity building to research, to dialogue and debates, to skills, to soft and hard skills training. So it really depends on the project and these youth that are empowered by us, we really hope for them to innovate at the Lebanese level and at the international and international level and to provide innovative solutions for the developmental challenges that we are all facing. So this is the general objective and we are currently, currently seeing some, some progress that these have, have been contributing at the national and at the local levels, which is really inspiring.
- [33:24]
B
Well, Howard, how many. So how many young people do you deal with in any particular year?
- [33:33]
A
In any particular year? I would say around 2,000 youth across all of our, all of our programs? Yeah, from from the hand to the education to the, to the socioeconomic program to the, to the youth empowerment program, the theatre acts that I've previously mentioned. So around that number.
- [33:52]
B
Yes, I'm fascinated. Tell me a typical day. So you know, on, on Thursday or today, what did you, what did you do from beginning to, to end? Sort of. Tell me a typical sort of day.
- [34:06]
A
Yeah, so. So it was a busy day today. So we were discussing mainly three projects regarding the youth and how we are going to combine all of these projects together. How are the youth across different projects going to meet and intertwine and exchange knowledge, which is very, very important for us. We then were discussing one of our events that we are going to have on Saturday, 23 May, which is the centennial of the Lebanese constitution, which we believe it is very important for us to spread awareness about the constitution. What does it mean? What are the rights and duties of every citizen? What are some definitions that are taken for granted but yet taken mistakenly by everyone, even those in charge? So we were all over the place and we were discussing the trainings that we have on Saturdays. What are we going to be delivering this week? Evaluating last week's trainings.
- [35:06]
B
So yeah, and you mentioned earlier that you were monitoring, monitoring the medics as they were as they attended the bombing of the apartments. So is that part of your public health portfolio? Is that what you do?
- [35:24]
A
Yes, this is part of my public health and well being umbrella. So I currently manage the program, which currently has a social and medical center, which is a primary health center in the historic district of Saido, as well as we have the emergency medical service unit is the paramedics branch of the primary healthcare center, as well as the health network of southern neighboring towns, which brings together all of the healthcare institutions from hospitals, emergency medical services, primary healthcare clinics, pharmacies, dispensaries, as well as medical and nursing professionals. So we convene and discuss current challenges going to to recommend solutions for these challenges at the local level as well as at the national levels, to influence policy, to advocate for certain topics and to bring innovation into the health sector. Part of our meetings were discussing the response to the health response to the current Israeli war in Lebanon. So which is why I really wanted to observe what's. To observe what's going on on the ground in response to the bombing.
- [36:42]
B
So it was looking to see how they responded and whether there was anything that needed that could be improved either in resource or in timing or whatever. Is that right?
- [36:52]
A
Exactly. Yes, exactly.
- [36:54]
B
It strikes me that the foundation of what you're doing in terms of the public health is something that certainly in other countries would be the role of government and local government government. But you've taken that over, is that correct? Is that what happens?
- [37:15]
A
Yes, yes. Part of our role is supporting public institutions in aims of achieving a strong Lebanese state. So we always do this, be it with the local administration, such as municipalities, governorates, or be it with ministries, and that we collaborate, collaborate with to achieve common goals. I think this is how it is in Lebanon. The NGO sector and the civic sector supports the government and not vice versa, which surprised me. I was at a conference in Sharm el Sheikh in 2022, I guess was following a project for drafting three action plans for health resilience in three major cities in Lebanon, Tripoli, Saida and Tir or Sur. So we were the only NGO there that was presenting our work. Everyone from Egypt and from Jordan, they were governmental entities. So this was the first time that I realized that it's the other way around here in Lebanon.
- [38:20]
B
How big is the Hariri foundation in terms of staff and in terms of how much it sort of spends, if you like, every year?
- [38:33]
A
Regarding the staff, I think we are more than 500 staff members with our two schools, as well as our centers and different programs. We are more than 500 staff members at the Hariri foundation in general. And we have projects with varying sizes, from small projects to large projects with huge budgets. So it really depends on the project. It really depends on the target audience, it depends on the scope. It varies. As I mentioned, we serve across all of the value chain.
- [39:10]
B
Yeah, it's massive. It seems to be massive in terms of its reach of what it's trying to do. You have two schools as well, is that right? Is that primary schools? High schools?
- [39:22]
A
High schools, full schools, K12, from kindergarten
- [39:26]
B
to secondary classes to secondary classes. And then how do you select the pupils that go into the schools? And then I really also give scholarships to universities, to people going to universities as well. How are those students chosen?
- [39:49]
A
So when it comes to school, I think it's strictly based on merit. So these schools have their own administration, they have their own school principles. It's a typical school and we always support our students, be it financially, with scholarships, with extracurricular activities, etc. And when it comes to the university scholarships. So we have. Similar to every scholarship, there's an application that you have to fill, there is a certain GPA that you have to. To keep, to preserve so that you can preserve your scholarship. And it's a regular process at the Hadida Foundation. And then we engage our scholars at various activities to make sure they are part of our civic engagement activities. This is part of creating a network of alumni. Yeah.
- [40:43]
B
And assume it's a network of. Of that continues because it's been going over so many years. This network just keeps on growing, doesn't it? In terms of its.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah, we have started this network very recently, over the past three to five, three to four years to be exact. So the previous scholars, during the 1978, up until late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was assassinated, it was a different era for us. Usually they cared more about giving the scholarship and not connecting with the scholars. It was Rafik Hadir's top priority. He always asked the focal people responsible for the scholarships how many scholars we have today. He really cared about giving scholarships to everyone that wants a scholarship or to everyone that can be convinced to. To Leave the arms and to leave the world and go get a scholarship.
- [41:45]
B
So there was no real alumnus network until four or five years ago, Right?
- [41:51]
A
Yeah. Yes.
- [41:55]
B
Well, you certainly, you certainly know your stuff. So you got, not only you're doing the public health and the, and the data monitoring and all that, but you're also clearly a very good spokesman for the organization.
- [42:08]
A
Thank you.
- [42:09]
B
Your detail is extraordinary. Thank you so much. So now I'm going to put you, I'm going to use that, that sense of detail again. Give me something of a background or give us something of a background of why Lebanon has become so splintered and what are the current tensions.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah. First of all, it's a very complex issue. It's very, very, very complex. It's systemic. I think making it simple wouldn't do it justice, of course, but I think not knowing how to manage diversity and how to benefit from diversity is a factor. Our geographic location is. Is a factor. Near to Palestine and Israel, near to Europe, on the Mediterranean. It plays a major role, external influence in Lebanon due to the various factions and sets that are available in Lebanon. It all played a major role in weakening the Lebani state, which has allowed for further waves of violence to arise, for further waves of disagreement to rise, which has really allowed for the civil war to occur, for the stagnation to occur, for the economic collapse to occur. It's all come together to create the reality that we are living in, which is a vicious cycle that it's very hard to escape at the moment.
- [43:48]
B
Is there a way out?
- [43:53]
A
I hope by building the Lebanese national state, by coming together to build this state that ideally prevents everything from falling apart and that controls and that takes power and that fixes and that builds senses and builds the social cohesion of everyone. So this is the goal, in my opinion, because we always say that violence prevents the building the national states and building the national state prevents violence. And it's a loop.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah, I was doing some research quite recently on Lebanon and just looking at the economic situation as well, and it's clear that some of the factors are that the institutions have collapsed, haven't they? Because if you look at, for example, Argentina, where there's rampant inflation, the currency has collapsed, etc. Etc. It retains some form of inward incoming investments and incoming confidence, if you like. But the investment into the Lebanon has collapsed because the institutions seem to have collapsed. Is that fair?
- [45:21]
A
I think this is fair to say so. We have the Lebanese currency being devaluated from 2019 onwards. More recently it's been stabled at around 100,000 Lebanese pounds, several of our institutions are very weak. They are incapable of performing their daily tasks. Several public institutions really cannot afford to pay wages for their employees or transportation, which really puts the employees of the civil servants at very hard time to perform their job, which really is a hassle for other citizens or Lebanese public members that really want their service. It's a disruption of the public life, if we may call it. That's. It's very, it's a tough.
- [46:26]
B
Do you think there's enough. Do you think there is goodwill? The institutions we know are frail and fragile, but is there goodwill within those, those state institutions to try and develop and, and heal or not?
- [46:46]
A
Having. Having worked with a lot of institutions and a lot of stakeholders, especially from the public sectors, I think most stakeholders really have the goodwill, but they do not have the know how. So I think this is my realization, which is why capacity building and more dialogues are needed, more funding support are needed, more reforms are definitely needed across the whole public sector.
- [47:23]
B
Well, this has been fascinating. Thank you very, very much. Not only did I know something a little bit more of you and what you were telling me, but also with the work that you're doing at Hariri, but and your perspective on the country, what more can a man want when he's interviewing you? I mean, that's extraordinary. Thank you very much. That was Muhammad speaking to me from Lebanon. I'll be continuing the miniseries on the country in the next episode. So until then, I'm Stephen Barden and this has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey.
- [48:08]
A
Sam.