Ep.29 Lebanon Lives - Lana: Dealing with the Damage

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Migrant Odyssey
Host: Stephen Barden
Episode: Ep.29 – Lebanon Lives: Lana: Dealing with the Damage
Guest: Lana, Clinical Psychologist
Date: June 7, 2026

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Overview: Humanizing Lebanon’s Ongoing Crisis

This episode centers on Lana, a young Lebanese clinical psychologist working on the frontlines with vulnerable populations in Lebanon. Through a candid conversation, host Stephen Barden and Lana explore questions of Western perception, the deeply intertwined crises affecting Lebanon, and the quiet acts of resilience and care that persist amid widespread despair. The episode highlights the voices of those living with the long-term aftermath of war, displacement, economic collapse, and societal trauma, while challenging listeners to see Middle Eastern lives beyond statistics and headlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why “Interest” From the West? (00:05–04:13)

• Historical Indifference:
  Stephen opens by reflecting on a recurring question from Lebanese and Palestinian guests:
  “Why are you interested in us?” He points out that this speaks to the West’s historic indifference, exploitation, and objectification of the Middle East and its peoples.
  • Stephen: “Perhaps they see us as seeing them not as people but as digits, occupying places where we can make money from their oil and gas...” (01:00)
• Current Sentiments:
  Stephen references a recent Pew survey showing rising global disapproval of Israeli actions, yet questions whether this translates into real understanding or support for Lebanon and Palestine.
  • “Has any country lifted a finger to help stop the continuing attacks on Lebanon, West Bank and Gaza?” (03:45)

2. Lana’s Perspective: Identity, Brainwashing & Western Gaze (04:22–05:57)

• Media Narratives & Identity Loss:
  Lana explains that surprise at Western interest is rooted in media portrayals and the feeling of being “brainwashed” by colonial narratives:
  • “...the Western world is taking over and our identity is falling apart as Arabs, as Middle Eastern individuals.” (04:48)
  • She finds it “refreshing” when Westerners genuinely listen, countering stereotypes of indifference.

3. The Work: Beyond Stereotypes, Into Vulnerability (06:08–13:23)

• NGO Work & Male Vulnerability:
  Lana outlines her work with marginalized populations and challenges gender stereotypes:
  • “People think that only women or children are vulnerable, exposed to violence, but also males.” (08:12)
  • Describes her approach as a “frontliner” social worker, directly involved in multiple aspects of clients’ lives beyond classic psychology.
• Motivation:
  Lana chose this path out of empathy and a desire to be present with “the broken”:
  • “It takes a truly unique individual to be able to sit with pain of refugees... they’re just forgotten. Nobody cares about them.” (11:46)
• Privilege & Injustice:
  She points out systemic injustice toward Palestinian and Syrian colleagues, who are barred from opening practices due to nationality:
  • “Why did I get to have this privilege and they didn’t?” (13:13)

4. Personal Roots: Family, Place, and the Making of a Psychologist (14:27–22:08)

• Saida (Sidon) and Family:
  Lana speaks with affection about her hometown and family, emphasizing the significance of collective memory and nature.
  • “Nature is healing to the mind and soul... No one can understand the gift of nature unless they were cognitively tired and was healed by nature.” (17:38)
• Early Inspirations:
  She describes how her mother’s hospital work, school science classes, and the observation of mind-body connections sparked her interest in psychology.
  • “I thought emotions and bodily symptoms were separable. And then I understood that we are... one entity.” (21:25)

5. Collective Memory & Family Glue (22:58–27:29)

• Grandmothers as Family Anchors:
  Lana describes how family gatherings, spearheaded by her grandmothers, are central to Lebanese life and to her own sense of belonging.
  • “I appreciate and live on family ties, collectivism, and just genuine love for each other in our family.” (24:59)
• Diaspora & Attachment:
  Emphasizes that the “spirit of the people” – not just place – forms the true sense of home:
  • “Good people make good places. So it’s all about the spirit of the people that you’re with...” (26:30)

6. First Encounters with Mental Health Care (27:33–32:24)

• Internship at Beirut Mental Hospital:
  Lana recounts her challenging first role, emphasizing patient individuality, the importance of understanding history and context, and supervisor support.
  • “You need to be kind enough and compassionate enough to look at them as purely individuals. Just like you, they went through something, this is why they’re here.” (29:35)
• Growth Through Vulnerability:
  She candidly discusses her own feelings of vulnerability as a new intern.

7. Day-to-Day in a Refugee Camp (33:02–37:26)

• Types of Violence & Daily Challenges:
  Lana details the prevalence of gender-based violence, poverty, overcrowding, and lack of educational support.
  • “It can be violence from their husband, it can be from a father, it can be from a mother... physical violence, which is the most common, it can be economic, emotional, psychological, sexual.” (33:20)
• Cycle of Trauma:
  Stephen and Lana discuss intergenerational trauma among refugees:
  • Stephen: “This... carries from the grandfather to the father, three, four, five generations... the traumas... must be extraordinary.” (36:05)
  • Lana: “It’s not repeating, it’s nonstop... it’s ongoing.” (37:03)

8. The Long-Term Impact of Continuous Crisis (38:06–43:00)

• Fragility & Suddenness of Collapse:
  Lana describes a society at the brink, referencing suicides, missed hopes after protests, and personal stories:
  • “It’s becoming very fragile and people are having dark thoughts about life.” (41:00)
• Small Gains in Stigma:
  Notwithstanding suffering, she notes increased openness to mental health treatment among the youth.
  • “There is still stigma about medication... but teenagers nowadays are speaking about mental health.” (42:05)

9. Shifting Masculinity & Psychosocial Needs (43:00–44:35)

• Barriers for Men:
  Lana observes that some men wish to seek mental health support but feel embarrassed by the lack of male professionals.
  • “Some men try to reach out, but they say because you’re a female... we sometimes feel shy. So had there been a male psychologist... we would have talked about our feelings.” (43:42)

10. On Lebanese “Resilience” and Reality Checking (44:35–49:05)

• Resilience, Numbness, and Survival:
  Lana questions the “resilient Lebanese” narrative, suggesting much is actually numbness and survival instinct.
  • “I’m afraid that this resilience... might be masked by desensitization, by numbness, by wanting to survive, by being on autopilot...” (45:19)
• Short-term Thinking:
  Notes tendency for short-term pleasures over long-term planning, stemming from the need to address immediate survival over issues like environmental sustainability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Privilege and Injustice (13:13):
  Lana: “I have some colleagues who are very smart... but just because of their nationality, they cannot practice... So I felt it’s unfair sometimes and you just want to ease the pain because you feel sometimes helpless...”

• On The Power of Family Ties (26:30):
  “Good people make good places. So it’s all about the spirit of the people that you’re with and how they form the warmth and attachment and belonging that you have. So such people are your home rather than your own country sometimes.” — Lana

• On Trauma’s Continuity (37:03):
  Lana: “It’s repeating, I think. It’s not repeating, it’s nonstop. It didn’t end, it repeats. Yeah. So it’s ongoing.”

• On Fragility and Suicide (41:00):
  Lana: “The mental health of Lebanese people. It’s becoming very fragile... there was a 60 year old man, he went to the Hamra street... he said, ‘I am not a disbeliever... but hunger is what made me a disbeliever.’”

• On Resilience vs. Numbness (45:19):
  “I’m afraid that this resilience, sensationalism, maybe it might be masked by desensitization, by numbness, by wanting to survive, by being on autopilot...” — Lana

• On Nature as Therapy & Legacy (17:38):
  “No one can understand the gift of nature unless they were cognitively tired and was healed by nature.” — Lana

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Important Timestamps

• 00:05–04:13: Introduction and the Western gaze
• 04:22–05:57: Lana’s reflections on Western interest and identity
• 06:08–13:23: NGO work, male vulnerability, and vocation
• 14:27–22:08: Family, city, and the early roots of Lana’s psychology career
• 22:58–27:29: Importance of family glue for Lebanese society & diaspora
• 27:33–32:24: First professional experiences in mental health care
• 33:02–37:26: Frontline realities inside a refugee camp
• 38:06–43:00: Long-term societal impacts of violence and crisis
• 43:00–44:35: Shifting gender roles in seeking help
• 44:35–49:05: Resilience narratives and short-term vs. long-term outlook

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Lana’s Hopes & Path Forward

• Future Specializations (49:09–52:04):
  Lana hopes to further her psychology practice with cognitive behavioral therapy, integrating religious and spiritual counseling, continuing the tradition of holistic Middle Eastern approaches.
  • “I would like to be specialized in a certain therapy... I low key... check for therapies that religion and psychology go hand in hand together...” (49:24)

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Tone

The conversation is deeply human, empathetic, and at times somber, balancing the ordinary with the extraordinary. The language is direct, reflective, and unflinching about trauma—and yet, moments of gentle humor, familial love, and hope for better collective health break through the heaviness.

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Takeaway

This episode offers a raw, firsthand look at life and labor in a country wounded by decades of crisis, yet bursting with stories that defy stereotypes. Through Lana’s eyes, listeners witness both the weight of inherited trauma and the quiet, steadfast commitment to care, connection, and dignity—even when hope is hard-won.

Transcript

[Lana]

Foreign.

[Stephen Barden]

The question that I've been asked most often by my guests on this podcast is, why are you interested in us? Why would you, in the west be interested in us? It's not a question. Funnily enough, I was asked by those I talk to in Africa or Asia. It was very often asked by Palestinians and always by my Lebanese guests. All of them, every single one of them, asked that question. At first, I took it at face value and tried to explain the affection

I have for them and my own

interests and experiences of colonialism and apartheid and so on.

And then I thought, no, they're telling me something crucial about how they see us seeing them.

They're telling me something about our behavior,

about the value or the type of

value we place in them. Perhaps because, as Western nations, we have

watched with apparent indifference as so many

Levantine and Arab societies have been subjugated, vassalized, or simply wiped off the map. And we did so, and do so in the face of unavoidable footage of suffering and destruction. And of course, we've often participated in the destruction where it suited our wallets. So perhaps they see us as seeing them not as people but as digits, occupying places where we can make money from their oil and gas off their coast, or from a Gaza Riviera, or from reviving car companies to sell arms. Perhaps. There is, of course, certainly strong evidence that popular support for Israel's political and military actions is now in the minority. A Pew Global survey across 36 countries conducted between February and May 2026 and published in early 26, found that 67% of respondents held an unfavorable view of Israel, with just 25% holding a positive view. And in 13 of the 24 countries where year on year comparisons were possible, Israel's unpopularity increased. The only exception was Greece, where sentiment towards Israel improved to 30%. But perhaps what still lies behind that original question, why are you interested in us? Are three more questions they may be asking themselves. Has popular sentiment changed Western government or corporate attitudes at all? Are those popular sentiments driven by dislike for Israel's flagrant and very public atrocities? Or are they driven by a genuine sympathy, understanding and curiosity for the Palestinian and Lebanese people, in fact, of the people of the Levant? And finally, has any country lifted a finger to help stop the continuing attacks on Lebanon, west bank and Gaza, despite the many ceasefires? Well, in today's episode, I decided to turn that question around. I asked my Lebanese guest, clinical psychologist Lana, why? She'd queried, why are you interested in us? By the way, in Our conversation, you'll hear me mention that Lana was waiting for her license to practice clinical psychology. Well, that arrived a couple of days after we spoke.

Lana, hello. Thank you very much for being on the podcast.

[Lana]

Hello, Stephen. Thank you so much for having me.

[Stephen Barden]

Why were you surprised that I or anyone else would be interested in your story?

[Lana]

Yes, I actually asked you this question. It was the first question ever. And I appreciated you taking the time to listen to us. Maybe because the media somehow has given us this schema, or maybe we were brainwashed to think that about this white supremacy, that the Western world is here to take over the Middle East. So they're the stronger party, we're the weaker party. And also because of globalization, you know how teenagers mainly are following Western trends and for forgetting about their identity, about their culture, clothes changed habits, thinking patterns. So it's like the Western world is taking over and our identity is falling apart as Arabs, as Middle Eastern individuals. So this is why I feel we are brainwashed to feel that way. But it's really refreshing to see individuals from the Western world taking the time to hear us Middle Eastern individuals. So I really want to thank you for this.

[Stephen Barden]

No, no, there's no thanks.

There's no thanks due to me. This is a very important project of mine.

And interestingly enough, I'm not interested in, you know, famous people from. From the Middle east or whatever. I'm interested in what I call ordinary, extraordinary people, the people who actually are the fiber of the country they live in. And you are certainly that. So thank you. So you have a master's degree in clinical psychology, and you're waiting for your license to practice, which, inshallah, will be appearing in the next few weeks. And as part of God willing always.

[Lana]

Yes, yes.

[Stephen Barden]

As. As part of your training and, and, and to build up your experience, you.

[Lana]

You.

[Stephen Barden]

You were an intern in a number of organizations, including a hospital in. In Beirut, and you now work for an NGO, which was established 25 years ago, in fact, around the time you were born. That's about right, yes.

[Lana]

Yeah.

[Stephen Barden]

And this, and this NGO works with marginalized people, particularly children and women, and regardless of origin of race or religion or political persuasion or whatever. So in. In many ways, your work puts you in places where you simply cannot turn away from the most vulnerable in, as we know, an already vulnerable society. Why did you choose to do that? Because it puts you right up against it, doesn't it?

[Lana]

Yes. So you mentioned that this NGO works with children, works with females, women, but it also works with males, and there is a Lot of stigma. I wanted to mention this point before diving into the question regarding male mental health. So when it comes to gender based violence and how I, how I, I'm like a caseworker for individuals who are exposed to violence. Some of them are males. And when I mentioned that I work with both males, males and females, some of the co workers or individuals that I know become very surprised to mention males. So really males got exposed to violence. How don't they protect themselves? So the answer is clearly visible because working with such a population and also being exposed to males can also help you break the stigma around vulnerable people. So people think that only women or children are vulnerable, exposed to violence, but also males. And there is some awareness campaigns regarding men's mental health. So it's very important to me. Generally it's because I've studied psychology. So when it comes to my personality or background, I'm empathetic. I like helping people. And when it comes to being a caseworker or as social worker, it gives you a chance that psychology doesn't give you because as a social worker you're a frontliner. So you're directly, directly juggling between certain well being elements of the case. So you're there for her or for him when it comes to legal matters, when it comes to food, when it comes to housing, when it comes to financial a, and when it comes to psychological help or aid also. So you're directly there within their life. So this gives you a sharpened vision. So you will become a better psychologist because you're directly there on the field. You're close to the life of that person. You're saying things you cannot truly see in psychology because of boundaries, because of ethics. So being a social worker can help you become a very professional and knowledgeable psychologist. In the future, I want to just

[Stephen Barden]

probe a little bit more. Why did you. You said you're empathetic and I can see that. And I saw that when we first spoke. There's no doubt about that. But why? And you could have gone into other professions to help. You could have gone into, you could have gone into teaching, you could have gone into all sorts of things, nursing or whatever, but you specifically chose a profession which puts you right up against vulnerability. You cannot turn your eyes away from it. Why did you choose that?

[Lana]

Because like such people are suffering the most. So sometimes we ask ourselves, we are here on earth to do something to help others and to let God be proud of us, to feel like we have a purpose. So, okay, there are many teachers, there are many firefighters, There are many doctors. But it takes a truly unique individual to be able to sit with pain of refugees, of people who are downgraded. Because you know, in Lebanon there's a lot of racism or disinterest in the well being of refugees. They're just forgotten. Nobody cares about them. So we as Lebanese citizens, we don't fully have our own rights. So let's think about those who are refugees. So their situation is much worse than our situation. So it takes a white heart to just unmask this ego and be there to help. So we have to sit with the broken to be able to understand this privilege that we are having that we don't know about.

[Stephen Barden]

Thank you. That's beautiful.

[Lana]

I can give you an example if you want.

[Stephen Barden]

Yeah, give me an example. Give me an example.

[Lana]

Yes, because we're talking about refugees. So because I'm a Lebanese, I can take my license and open my own practice. But I have some colleagues who are very smart, very clever, who are Palestinians, Syrians, same education, same prestigious universities. But just because of of their nationality, they cannot practice, they cannot own a house, they cannot have their own clinic or open a pharmacy or medical clinic. So I felt it's unfair sometimes and you just want to ease the pain because you feel sometimes helpless, because you ask yourself why? Why did I got to have this privilege and they didn't have this privilege.

[Stephen Barden]

Tell me something about your own backstory, you, your family and growing up in your community. Tell me something about that.

[Lana]

So about me. I was born and raised in Saida. I like Saida. It's my city. It's my hometown. I was raised there. All my family members are there. It has lots of historical sites. I personally like the Sea Castle and I enjoy looking at the Sea Castle on certain events because especially at night. So it's all dark and it's kind of shining with lights depending on the event. I remember a sweet event when it came to autism awareness. So the Sea Castle was all shining with the blue lights. So I liked. It's like a representative of certain awareness topics. So it's used for a good cause. So I like that, honestly. Of course there are positive and negative things about my city. I hope it would be more prosperous in the future and it will be more well renovated. So when it comes to my family, I have a twin sister and my twin sister is a water engineer. She graduated with a master's in civil and water engineer. My. My twin truly likes nature. She likes sustainability, she likes to preserve the environment. We have lots of common things. So when it comes to the environment or nature, she appreciates nature by trying to look for ways to keep nature alive, to recycle, to reuse. But when it comes to how I look at nature, I look at it through a therapeutic lens. It's healing. It's healing to the mind and soul. And I don't say this in a cliche way. Oh, nature is healing. No, it's really healing. And no one can understand the gift of nature unless they were cognitively tired and was healed by nature. So I would like to give an example. When it comes to the first mental hospital, it was created by Muslims and it's called Maristan. And they truly placed a huge emphasis on neuro aesthetics, which were things sceneries related to nature that can calm the eyes and cognition. I truly appreciate that. And if you want to know about my parents, I can tell you an interesting thing about my mother's work, which you would be very interested in. So what made me go into psychology was an unintentional part of my mother's work. So she works at a hospital. And as a child I used to visit my mother at her work. I used to look for or check out how doctors work, how nurses work, and I was interested in biology. Somehow I remember always feeling at all when I was attending my biology classes. So one time the teacher told us about, she was telling us parts of the digestive system and she told us about the intestines. So she said the Intestine is like 20 to 30ft. And I remember saying, whoa, how. How does it fit inside our stomach? And I felt with every time she told us parts of our human body, I felt surprised. And I had this curiosity to understand how our body works. So I was like, this is it. I will become a medical doctor. But then that empathetic part of me came into surface and said, I will build a hospital and it will be free for everyone. No one has to pay anything. Because I had this philanthropist mindset inside of me. But I didn't know yet about capitalism and about the economy. So I was a carefree child. But now I grew up and I realized that you need money to survive in this economy. But it's okay, it's fine. So one thing that started shifting everything is when I heard my mom saying that, oh, our someone that we know because she was so sad, maybe a family friend. So she started developing a heart condition and she went to the hospital. So here I started having questions like, what? How? So because she sad, she started developing a heart disease. How can this be I started connecting the dots. So I was like, so feelings have a say or can control our bodily symptoms. I remember having this kind of epiphany, like there is this light bulb that was shining in front of me. So I started becoming very interested in health psychology, in somatic psychosomatic phenomena. This was my first spark. And that made me want to understand psychology even more because I truly, like. I thought emotions and bodily symptoms were separable. And then I understood that we are. They're one entity. And then I went back in time when I remembered that, oh, one time I was stressed from an exam, so my stomach started hurting. So all this made sense to me and how I started connecting everything together. This is my story with how I selected psychology as my major.

[Stephen Barden]

The psychologists, or work in historical work from. In the Muslim tradition, in the Islamic tradition believed quite strongly. There were many, many of these people who believed quite strongly in the integrative influences of mental, emotional and spiritual phenomena. So that. Yeah, there's a. There's a lot of writing on that, isn't there? As you, as you know, tell me. Can you tell me of a. You told me about the sea castle, but tell me of a memory or a smell or a taste or a feeling that you still treasure from that childhood of yours.

[Lana]

When it comes to taste, and it's very nostalgic. I immediately remember my grandma, my two grandmas, to be exact, and any memory related to my grandmas and how they used to come to our house to cook for us and to play with us and how we used to enjoy our days together. So on the weekend, our grandma. I say our because I'm used to my twin sister and I. So this is how the unconscious collectivistic sense comes. So my grandma told me, told us, all our family members, no matter how busy you are, you have to come to my house. I'm cooking lunch. So we have to stay together and the family so we wouldn't be busy and everybody would be scattered. So I truly appreciate grandmas because they are the backbones of family members. And I've heard that a lot of my friends and people that I know, they lost their grandmothers. And they told me that because they lost their grandmothers, the family, the family stopped being fun. Family gatherings. And everybody was busy on their own. They don't have time for gatherings. So I truly wonder from time to time, because I know everybody has a turn when I lose my grandma, how would it turn out to be? Will we all be scattered if she's the one to bring us and Then we scatter, who would combine us all again. So I hope we remember their spirits and continue this beautiful tradition because I appreciate and leave on family ties, collectivism, and just genuine love for each other in our family.

[Stephen Barden]

So that seems to me to be the glue that ties you to the country as well, isn't it? I mean, after all, you know, 78 years of war and conflict have been driven a huge number of very talented Lebanese people into the diaspora. Is that what keeps you in the ties, the family, the glue? Is that what it is?

[Lana]

Yes. The family is a very important aspect of every Lebanese person of the Lebanese culture and getting together through. At dinner tables, lunch. So it's like. And we went through a lot of. Of being exposed to the phenomena of the phenomenon of the brain drain and losing amazing Lebanese people and traveling. And when you ask them abroad, they miss the. Their family members. So sometimes they say, if my family members weren't there in Lebanon, perhaps I wouldn't have missed Lebanon that much. I only care about my family members. There is a sentence that I wouldn't forget. My English teacher in eighth grade told me this sentence while we were reading a story. She said, good people make good places. So it's all about the spirit of the people that you're with and how they form the warmth and attachment and belonging that you have. So such people are your home rather than your own country? Sometimes.

[Stephen Barden]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lana]

Yes, It's.

[Stephen Barden]

Talk about your work. One of your first experiences in the field, as it were, was working in a hospital in Beirut that cared for elderly and mentally ill patients. Can you tell me something about that, your experience there? What did you learn both about the care of the patients and about yourself?

[Lana]

Yes. So my first internship was at a mental hospital. And having your first internship as a mental hospital can be a huge step and can be a very challenging step, because your first internship should be, for example, a form of observation, maybe observing psychologists where they're treating their patients, learning something theoretical, that when you jump in to the sea of the mental hospital and you start treating patients, not necessarily patients treating clients there or people, because we don't like saying the term patient sometimes. So it can be challenging in many ways, but it can help you grow as a therapist because you see symptoms or you become exposed to symptoms you've never been exposed to before, such as individuals taking medication with high doses, so they're sometimes unconscious, sometimes they don't know their setting, where they are. Some of them can be aggressive, some of them can lie, but all of them have a story. So you need to be kind enough and compassionate enough to look at them as purely individuals. Just like you, they went through something, this is why they're here. So you should, and one should understand that they didn't end up here out of nowhere. There is a certain consequences, certain timeline that made them go into such a mental hospital. And this is sometimes psychology is interesting because you try to understand causes and effects, you try to understand timelines, and then you're like, oh, this is why you act that way. This is why you ended up here, this is why you reacted that way. So it helps you have understanding of history. And when you understand the history of the person, you don't fear communicating with them. Not. Not mainly and not. I'm not really talking myself as an intern at a mental hospital. I'm talking also about general relationships. So communication is key. So when you ask a person or friendships or with family members, if you had a heart to heart conversation and asked, please tell me, why did you handle this situation in that way? Why did you react that way? This can help build rapport, just the way we built it with our clients or the individuals that we try to treat. So from this experience, I believe supervisors have a huge responsibility, clinical supervisors, because they have to cater to the needs of interns. They have to let them, between two quotations, spread their wings. Because it's their first internship, they will not be perfect. Supervisor should have a listening ear. They should be patient enough to handle the intern's concerns. So this is how the intern grows and will have this confidence and self esteem that will make them grow as a therapist and prosper later on.

[Stephen Barden]

How vulnerable did you feel when you were there?

[Lana]

Yes, I felt vulnerable because it was my first time being at a mental hospital. And if any psychology student is listening to this podcast will know the feeling of being on the floors of psychiatric hospitals or psychiatric unit without safety measures or feeling alone.

[Stephen Barden]

You're now working in a refugee camp, as we said, as a caseworker in gender based violence.

[Lana]

Yes.

[Stephen Barden]

Tell me some. What are the most prevalent issues and what do you do in the camp?

[Lana]

Yes. So mainly because my work is specific, I am mainly exposed to individuals who are experiencing violence. It can be violence from their husband, it can be from a father, it can be from a mother. It can be, and there are several types of violence. It can be physical violence, which is the most common. It can be economic violence, socioeconomic, where someone can deprive you of education, of financial resources. It can be emotional, psychological. It can be sexual through rape and harassment. So it has many types. So these are the most prevalent types, but there are also several other things, such as having a very harsh economic situation. So because of this harsh economic situation, the poverty, the lack of rights, having an overcrowded area, not being able to access education most of the times, and especially to those who have a certain disability, some schools are free, we have free education. But sometimes the classes aren't equipped, sometimes the teachers aren't there equipped, sometimes the counselors have lots of load. So teenagers can become dropouts at any moment. They can be friends with individuals who, who have negative influence on them. They can try smoking, they can try vaping, they can try the hookah, sometimes alcohol. So there are lots of juvenile delinquency. And we can see that also because not only the outer society, but the family environment where the, mainly the father can be such a figure, he can be a bad influence to the children and they might. Yeah, like he might neglect his children.

[Stephen Barden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It strikes me as you were talking, that of course, if you're talking about refugees, particularly wherever they come from, whether they come from Palestine or Syria, these are people who have been humiliated, removed from the, from, from their homes, seen people killed around them, then deprived of course of rights where they, where they land up, even though they've been given refuge, they can't work legally, they cannot have rights. And this of course carries, I assume it carries from the grandfather to the father, three, four, five generations, because it's been going on for such a long time. So the traumas that you must be dealing with there must be extraordinary.

[Lana]

Yes, it's repeating, I think. It's not repeating, it's nonstop. It didn't end, it repeats. Yeah. So it's ongoing. And maybe they resort to unhealthy coping mechanisms. They have lots of anger, frustration, disappointment inside of them.

[Stephen Barden]

Turning to the entire, entire population, which of course includes the refugees as well. But what in your experience are the long, in your own experience, from what you've seen, are the long term mental health of mental health impacts of over three quarters of a century, of invasions, of civil wars, of fragmenting of societies, of uncertainties, war. What do you see as the long term impact on the people of Lebanon? On that

[Lana]

long term impact? I have a positive one and a negative one in an ironic way. Long term impact. So we Lebanese people have been dealing with a lot since 2019, but of course, 1948.

[Stephen Barden]

1948, yes, to be exact. To be exact, to be exact, yes, yes.

[Lana]

And there is the civil war and many other things. So but when it comes to my generation and to what I was exposed to, so 2019 and above, and there was lots of calamities, starting with the economic collapse, the downgrade of the currency, people losing their money in banks, political instability, safety concerns, the Beirut explosion, the failed protest that we once felt that it could be our hope, but it unfortunately failed. So. And the wars that are happening now. So because of that we have witnessed a lot of like there was a surge of suicidal tendencies or deaths because of suicide. I remember a very prominent, prominent incident of suicide back in 2020. There was a 60 year old man, he went to the Hamra street and mainly in Lebanon, we joke about being hungry. We say that because I'm hungry, it's like I'm becoming a disbeliever because I cannot regulate my emotions and I'm angry and I want to eat. So it's like it's a joke. But this man said he wrote a certain phrase that was shocking and it's like it was very tragic. He said, I am not a disbeliever for. Between quotations for ending my life or for committing suicide, but hunger is what made me a disbeliever. So he turned this very funny joke into a tragic incident because he wasn't able to feed himself or his family. So long term impact the mental health of Lebanese people. It's becoming very fragile and people are having dark thoughts about life. However, although such things are taking place, the tables have turned. And in Lebanon we had lots of stigma about mental health, but now there is an openness to try therapy to talk about mental health. There is still stigma about medication or severe mental illnesses. But teenagers nowadays are speaking about mental health. Some of them are reaching to the hotline, the embrace hotline in Lebanon if they were distressed. You know, this hotline wasn't working 24 7, but now it's working 24 7. So code this to the individuals who have made this happen. So when I remember when I was 13, I didn't know that emotions can be connected to our bodily symptoms. So now when you ask 13 years old, they're like, I went to my therapist, I talked to my counselor at school. So it has two extremes. One that's really bad, but it changed this conversation. It broke the stigma somehow. And people are reaching out because they don't want to stay in a dark place anymore.

[Stephen Barden]

I was going to ask you about whether in, in the refugee camp and elsewhere, people particularly, I'm saying particularly men, because men are known not to, not to sort of reach out, but I suspect everybody is in this, in, in societies, whether people have reached out and asked for help, did they reach out and ask for help from you, if you like, Even when there hasn't been, you know, severe violence, but they've actually reached out because they are concerned about their own behavior.

[Lana]

It's a very important, it's a very interesting question. Some men try to reach out, but they say because you're a female or the psychologist at your NGO is a female. So we sometimes feel shy. So had there been a male psychologist or a male case worker, we would have talked about our feelings. So this is a good step. So males encourage you to seek social work or psychologist professions because you might help males who are afraid to talk or who are shy to talk to females to start this step. So that was my first observation. So yes, it started to change.

[Stephen Barden]

Yeah, and you're right, that's a very good, that's a very good result. The, the one thing I've certainly seen in, in all of the people I've, that I've met and, and interviewed from Lebanon is that despite, or maybe because of the, the uncertainties and sufferings, etc, there is still a joie de vivre. There is still a feeling of life is precious, life is good, life is. And you know, I strongly suspect, I'm totally convinced the fact that you have that. Is that right?

[Lana]

Well, you know, in Lebanon we always say, we have this motto, we say we're the most resilient people ever and we like to live and have fun and. But for me personally, I feel it's a bit exaggerated. I'm afraid that this resilience, sensationalism, maybe it might be masked by desensitization, by numbness, by wanting to survive, by being on autopilot, by trying to escape. It's like you're being numb or like the doctor has numbed you enough to think that you're okay, but you're not.

[Stephen Barden]

So you're almost, you're saying that actually that resilience is almost self medicating, isn't it?

It's a self medication, that's what you're saying. Somebody else, one of my other guests

said that one of the things that she found was that, that people think much more short term. You know, they don't think that long about the, the environment, you know, thinking about your, your twin sister who's entirely the opposite, but they don't think about the environment too much. They, you know, they, they would rather build a, build a building rather than have a park because that brings in money. They, they, they don't think, they don't plan long term. Is that something that you've come across?

[Lana]

Yes. It's like living for short pleasures because of the immense pain. And what I was telling you about was through a conclusion that I concluded from my thesis. So there are some articles that talk about Lebanese numbness, Lebanese resilience versus being masked by desensitization. And I wanted to tell you a funny incident about this. You know, when we were in Corona, all nationalities or all nations were concerned about Corona and this super awful pandemic that swept us. But we in Lebanon, it was one of our least concerns because we had other things to, to think of. I'm telling you the funny situation, like really when these people had lots of concerns, we didn't care much about Corona. So people live for their own agendas or for their own means. So they don't care much collectivistically because of the pain that's going on, because of the immense traumas. So everybody just wants their own pleasure, their own needs to be met. They cannot think as a whole, maybe not out of selfishness, maybe out of desperation and just wanting to survive because they're on autopilot all the time. So like other nations, my sister tells me other nations think about the environment, sustainability. And we're here thinking about whether we're able to eat or drink every day or no. So the need is very different.

[Stephen Barden]

Yeah.

One last question.

After you're certified, Inshaallah, you could, if you want to practice on your own. So what, what briefly are your plans once, once that certificate arrives?

[Lana]

Yes. So of course, hopefully, God willing I can because every day in Lebanon it's suspense on its own. So I would like to be specialized in a certain therapy. I would say at first cognitive behavioral therapy because it's very common, it can be practical for many mental disorders. And later on, when I, when I specialized in cbt, I have to add another therapeutic approach. I'm still trying to, to make up my mind on it because there are several therapies. But also I low key. I personally like to check for therapies that religion and psychology go hand in hand together because it's one of my personal favorites. It might mean to me, but it might not mean to other people. So I would like to search for such therapeutic approaches in the future. Maybe it might not practical in Lebanon, it might not be practiced in Lebanon, but maybe it might be practiced in other countries. So I might think about this in the future. Inshallah.

[Stephen Barden]

Inshaallah. And as we said earlier, Islam has. And Islamic scholars from the 9th century even before talked about therapeutic psychological practices which seem very modern now. And it was. You know, I'm reading a book currently of practices that were. And theories that were evolved in the 9th century from Muslim scholars. Lana, thank you very, very much. It's been lovely talking to you, and I wish you well. Always stay safe. And I would like to know when that certificate arrives. After you've. After you've celebrated with your mother and your sister, send me a message saying, I've got it. It's mine. Okay.

[Lana]

Yes. Thank you so much for having me and for following up. So. Yes, and once I have it, I will directly let you know so we can celebrate.

[Stephen Barden]

Thank you.

[Lana]

Yes.

[Stephen Barden]

That was clinical psychologist Lana talking to me from Lebanon. Thanks for listening. If you like what we're doing, please rate us, send us a message, or recommend us, support us in some way. And if you're a refugee migrant or are threatened with displacement and have a story to tell or know of someone who does, send us that message. In the meantime, this has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey.

And I'm Stephen Barden.