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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Welcome to Migrant Odyssey. I'm Stephen Barden. One of the aims of those who commit genocides, holocausts, obliterations and mass displacements of people is to eradicate the memory and memories of those people, our memory of them and their memories of themselves. And that's why the Roman General Scipio plowed over the city of Carthage and shipped off all its inhabitants as slaves. And that's why the Nazis obliterated the literature, music, homes and businesses of European Jews and enslaved and murdered those who couldn't escape. And that's why Israel has obliterated and plowed under Gaza and is determined to empty it and probably the west bank of its people. The irony is that none of this memory wipe has worked. We still know and remember Hannibal and the Carthaginians. The story of the Holocaust grows more powerful in its retelling and that of Gaza and the Palestinians is probably the topic of discussion around the world, despite best efforts by powers to smother it.
- [01:28]
Many years ago I was reflecting on this issue and realized that the only way a people can be obliterated is for all of them, every single one of them, to be killed. And then all who witnessed or committed the killings to also be killed. And then all those who witnessed the killing of the witnesses and the perpetrators to also be killed, and so on and on and on. And then, of course, you'll have to entirely destroy their language, their books, their music, their inventions and their creations. And finally, you'd somehow have to erase the memories of. Of not just the Allies, but the enemies of the obliterated people, because the enemies hold as many memories as the friends.
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In other words, it cannot be done.
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But of course, what the perpetrators can do if they're not checked, is to distort the present, to lay claim to the present and so claim their right to the history.
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So that the inhabitants of Massachusetts can believe, if they want to, that their ancestors settled on uninhabited land without giving a thought to the fact that the name Massachusetts comes from the Massachusetts people who lived around present day Moston long before those settler ancestors were even thought of.
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So that the people of present day Tikochin in Poland and Bolekhiv in Ukraine can believe, if they want to, that their parents and grandparents moved into unoccupied houses conveniently abandoned by the majority Jewish townsfolk during World War II.
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And so that the Israelis living in Lifta and Al Sheikh Mohanis can believe, if they want to, that at best they are reclaiming homes and land that were theirs, apparently by divine right, or at worst were again unoccupied and conveniently abandoned when they arrived.
- [03:59]
Today's guests represent two efforts to try and address that distortion by making sure that memories of places, people, celebrations, mournings, and even trivia in Gaza are remembered and owned before they are colonized by others. Those two organizations are YALA Labs and Waves to Home. And listeners to this podcast, if there are any, will know that we have close ties with Waves to Home. So welcome to Joe Friel and Lina Ayesh from YALA and Ahmad Jafil from Waves to Home.
- [04:45]
What I'd like to do in this episode is first of all to find out the backstories of both YALA and Ways to Home. And then, and then we'll move on to the work that your organizations are doing and then finally what you're planning to do to sustain this work. So Joe perhaps would be a good idea. YALA Labs, which is the organization that we'll be focusing on today, is actually the nonprofit part of what I think is an equally fascinating organization called YALA Cooperative. Right. Could you tell me something about Yellow Cooperative?
- [05:23]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for having us on. So YALA Cooperative started about seven years ago and obviously with all organizations you form these big visions and missions, but actually to be honest, it started with myself in the uk, Rami who is in Gaza, and Simon from Germany. And we were working on pro bono projects for charities, freelancing and we liked working together and we thought it was really cool that technology allowed us to do this. And so that was kind of where YALA started. Now what it is, it's a digital agency that partners with charities, nonprofits and kind of purpose driven organizations looking to design digital strategies but also build tools, whether that's websites, web apps, apps, anything digital. We're just interested in where it can be used to deliver like positive social impact and amplify unheard voices. And that's kind of because that's what technology has allowed us to do. So we're a workers owned cooperative. We're proud to be collectively owned by members from uk, Palestine, Italy, Germany, many people across the world. And we honestly believe that having that kind of space where different cultures and backgrounds can connect and share experiences and relevant for today's podcast, like share stories, you know, and learn from each other. We think that makes us better placed to then be able to solve kind of work on the various different societal challenges that the partner organizations we work with want us to help solve.
- [07:03]
A
Was it a coincidence that one of you was in Gaza, one of you was in London and The other was in, in Germany. And how on earth did you meet?
- [07:12]
B
So we, we kind of met through so with Yala. We kind of talk about having two spiritual parents, which is founders and coders and Gaza sky ge. So Founders of Coder is another great cooperative that was teaching people how to become developers. And that's when me and Simon met and they had made their curriculum open source and been partnering with Mercy Corps and Gaza Sky Geeks to also train developers in Gaza because that was by training as a developer that opened up opportunities.
- [07:50]
To work because you were able to work remotely online and this was like pre Covid. So this was when that was still not a common thing in many, many job sectors. And really Yala kind of birthed from a problem that they were having, which is you're having lots of incredibly talented, ambitious developers, designers coming out, especially in Gaza. But that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, equitable and meaningful employment. That's like non exploitative. So that's the idea of Yala was that it could create a company that we could all own together. So we met because we were working together on those two programs and then kind of went from there. The Germany, uk, Palestine thing is, yeah, let's just call it poetic, you know.
- [08:36]
A
The Gaza sky kicks. Was that absorbed into or does that continue and when did that start?
- [08:44]
B
Yeah, so Guards of Sky Geeks predates and they've done really incredible work with and pretty much like so many of our developers have come through that curriculum. And actually in a roundabout way it's also how, how we managed to coax Lina to Yala when, because she met Rami through, through Gods of Sky Geeks. So it's, it's the Garden Sky Geeks office and Leena, you'll be able to speak more to the kind of history and the overview of it. But it's the first place I visited, the first time I went into, into Gaza because that's where we were kind of initially before we set up our own separate Yala office in Gaza City. We were kind of working from there and it was just an incredible.
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It was just a really incredible place where it was just this like modern.
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Kind of space full of loads of young creatives. There was graffiti all across the walls. It was just a really cool thing and it kind of, you know, immediately being an outsider coming in, it was a really interesting thing of just like dispersing kind of sometimes the limited perceptions that people had of what Gaza is. You know, they see it through this reductionist. It's a wall and it's like no, there's this like vibrant world that's there, you know, which is also what is a big part of Gaza living story and kind of talking about that. But yeah Lena, you're obviously you worked for Gaza Sky Geek so you can. You can speak more to that.
- [10:10]
C
Yeah, I've worked there for almost four years. I mainly was responsible for the grab program that helped palace like that's how talent. So mainly Gaza Sky Geeks has that education arm where we help people whatever or whatever they have learned in universities or school to become techies in different ways. Whether that developers, designers or all the sort of different talent talents. And myself was responsible for the program that is after that after people are being trained enough intake is that helping them get to the employment skills, the employability skills and get into hooking them with companies to get them long term employment in a format that is remote first. And we had like people mainly working with companies in both the UK Most like our focus was mostly the UK and Europe because of their close the time soon is and the fact that it's English speaking countries. So they are English speaking countries. So there is no barriers from the language side.
- [11:20]
And yeah mostly like I've proudly. I'm still proud that we've been able within the time that I've managed the program to help 300 people get employment opportunities with different companies across Europe.
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And yeah this is what I've got to know Yella because like they were aside also from them being involved in the first place with Kaza Sky Geeks they've also been relying somehow on Kaza Sky Geeks to help them expand the team with more talents from the people who Kaza Sky Geeks is training.
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A
So Sky Geeks became the. Or is the basically the hub if you like the heart the educational part of it which then is able to feed organizations such as yours. Did you say 300 people? You enable 300 people to get employed across Europe.
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C
Yeah, correct.
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A
That's wonderful.
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C
Yeah, that's correct.
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A
That's wonderful. And Skygeek still exists. Still still running.
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C
So they had. Their main focus was they have both arms for Boost bank and Gaza but they had the bigger office obviously in Gaza. The one in Gaza has stopped and shifted into emergency support. But the one is. The one in the west bank is still functioning as it is.
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But they have a plans to get back again on a track for the employment side of things. It just right now within the situation and the uncertainty they are shifting their support into basically emergency funds and emergency.
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A
Support for people so perfect segue again into Yellow Labs.
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C
Yeah, within Yallah, like we only have been working since Yallah has existed with mission driven organizations, which has been amazing.
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However, we've been thinking like a lot between ourselves as the members of that of Yallah cooperative that it is not enough. There is something what we can do where we can do for the communities in Palestine or for the Disciples community. Because if you think about, if you see our clients, we obviously have mostly charities who are in the UK or in a smaller portion in Europe and other places. And we wondered if there is a way that we build a product that actually get into helping Palestinians to be the communities who we are serving. And that's how we've started thinking about yellow Labs in the sense that then we can build something together that serves the Palestinian community, that serves also the disciplined communities worldwidely, which is Palestine is the first. But then obviously we're hoping to expand. So that's how we thought about it.
- [14:23]
There is the other element which is right now within everything happening in Palestine and the continuous genocide. People don't like what you have been providing before is not enough for now because people would need further support obviously and further accommodation. Like someone who barely can find something to eat for the day cannot be getting the same expectation as someone having a warm bed to sleep in in the night. So that's why how we started thinking that there should be something where we can accommodate the need and help employing disciplined talent in the way that. Not very demanding for them but rather accommodative for what they need. And yeah, this is also the idea of Yellow Labs which is we have aim internally in the next year to build products that is purely by disciplined Palestinians and to be serving people who they think they would be having this opportunity as a sort of, I'm not sure how I'd say it, but like as a sort of helpful for them, like you know, like in their life and would help them get back on a track for their work and regain at least a little bit of what they have lost. So that was the idea. And obviously in the commercial sector, like, or even like if you're just a company, it's, it's not enough because you also have a lot of obligations. You have a lot of obligations for your clients. Right. But if you are building an internal, internal product, you can accommodate that need in the way that you built and in the, and providing that flexibility for people. And that is then what we are hoping to do is that these products that they are building then would help charities as well, in different places in the world, just to get also an access for an ethical tools. Ethical tools that helps them in an affordable way.
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A
Okay. Okay, Ahmed, your turn. Tell us about Waves to Home.
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D
Yes. Waves to Home was initially founded by Zoya. She is our founder. Zoya is half Palestinian, half Ukrainian, two time refugee. She founded Waves to Home in October 2022 after attending the One Young Growth Summit in Manchester, England.
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Zoya's vision for Waves to Home was to give people, like people in Gaza a chance to share their stories and talk about their struggles. And she and giving them a safe space to do so. Zoya herself found storytelling to be very liberating and very empowering and it helps a lot in terms of mental health because people who are displaced or migrants or have went through a lot of struggles and a genocide like we're recently seeing, like we're seeing today, they suffer a lot on so many levels. And we want to help them share their stories so that they can feel empowered, they can feel supported and they, they can inspire other people and be inspired by other people's stories. So we try to collect stories from across the world from people who fit into this category and we try to share them so that more awareness can be spread. And we try to help people.
- [18:26]
Achieve what they might be looking for. Maybe in terms of employment or something else. We don't necessarily do that directly, but we try to connect them with other partners and other organizations we know who might be able to assist that.
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A
And the organization itself, is it all staffed by volunteers? Are there people employed by it? How many people are involved?
- [18:59]
D
So all of us are volunteers and we're located in different countries.
- [19:06]
So Waves to Home headquarters is mainly in Zurich, Switzerland. We have our co leaders, Zoya and Kiras there. We have up to 10 members. Some are, some are located in Sweden, some are located in Jordan. You have me here in the United States, we have someone in the uk, so we're members from different countries and that's the beauty of it.
- [19:36]
A
But you have a website in which these the stories are posted and you have a newsletter every month, is that correct?
- [19:45]
D
That is correct. Ways to Home does have a website where anyone can tune in, can log into and read the stories of the storytellers to come forth and shared their stories with us. The cool thing about.
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The website and the way the stories go is we have the world map so you could click on any country and find stories of storytellers from that country who have collaborated with us. I think that's a very cool feature. And we also have a newsletter that comes out quarterly where we talk about our progress, what we've done in the past three months and where, what we are looking to achieve in the coming three months.
- [20:36]
A
Okay, so today we're going to be focusing on a project basically telling the stories of Gaza. Joe or Lena, whoever wants to take this one, tell us something about the project and how. Because I found that fascinating that, that whole thing of how you're mapping and telling the stories of Gaza.
- [21:04]
Who's going to take that one?
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B
I normally alternate between me and Lena. How are you feeling, Nina? Shall I start and then you can jump in with the bits I miss? Yeah. Okay.
- [21:17]
Yeah. So Gaza living story is.
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Effectively what we wanted to do is provide a way that Palestinians within Gaza and also Diaspora can share stories that are linked to places in Gaza. And those stories can be sharing memories, remembering the past. It can be also giving light to what's been happening and is continuing to happen even under, you know, said ceasefire.
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And then also importantly wanted it to be a place where as difficult as it needed for Palestine to be able to share what their hopes and dreams are for what Gaza will be in the future.
- [22:08]
And you know, what we saw this as being. And it was something that we were able to create thanks to some funding support from Mosul, it made and we wanted to, we saw it as trying to build a bit of a counter narrative because what we saw within our team, you know, was that in many ways our team in Gaza, they spoke about how, how hard it was to see their own story being colonized, you know, and being rewritten by outsiders. You know, I remember in like the first few months following the Semlock, so when there was the ongoing bombings and attacks and you know, people were able to access online and see what people were saying about people in Gaza. And you know, we had like a younger member in our team and that's like, you know, you're being bombed at the same time being told that you are a monster. Monster. Right. And it's, it's, it was this kind of. And that's just something that's gone on in different ways throughout the entire thing. We're still seeing it now in terms of the agreements and stuff. And what we're seeing is that it's that classic thing of people erasing the past, as you were saying in your intro at the beginning, trying to take hold of kind of rewriting what the present is. And really fundamentally it's to take control of, of the future. Right. And so we see what we Wanted gazelling story is. It's not just an archive or preservation memory, but it's very much a living, breathing thing. A thing where people can come to and they could just, if they want, share an image of the past or they can share a video of what's going on right now, or just write a poem for what they want the future to be. But it's something that can evolve and just make sure that at a time when people are kind of paradoxically saying, oh, it's rubble, who wants to live there? But also talking about this, like, Riviera of the Middle east, that there's like, well, no, you need to make sure that any discussion around Gaza is rooted in Palestinian voices. And that's what we're kind of hoping. With living stories, it becomes so loud. It's just something that can't be, you know, can't be silenced. It's something that people have to pay attention to.
- [24:29]
C
Yeah. And just adding to that, like the feeling that you're Palestinian, you. You lived in a place your entire life and you just suddenly. And you were displaced outside. But then you open the map, like, whatever, like, for example, Google Map to look at these places. You can't find them anywhere. That is where for me, like, I remember that I had this conversation with Joe and then I was like, it's very depressing when you don't see the places that belongs to you there in anywhere that is like, not just on the physical level, but also on the emotional level, because we seen this in the history. Like, I came from a refugee family where my family were displaced from a small village near Jerusalem. And I lived my entire life where my grandmother was telling me about how much she loved her village. And that village is now called a support of Israel. And people like saying, yeah, that Israel, which was in the 1948, which is even a lot of people are being very conscious about even claiming it as Palestine or even claiming people who had it in the past. And now seeing that there is nowhere I can reference my family to wherever they were, because that is a place in Israel and people are very careful about claiming any of the Palestinian land. That is before the 1967. That fear is inside me about everything is happening in Gaza, that you come to a point that you can't reclaim what belongs to you actually. And rather than you are just just being hit by a lot of disrespectful plans that everyone in the world is putting together, like for how they privatize Gaza to be like a place where people can invest in and find the real opportunities to make money or whatever with gas or any sort of that.
- [26:43]
But they don't know in the emotional level that people existed and lived there and had their entire life and memory there. And as a human, who we are, we are a history. Right. So if we, if we don't feel like that, we can claim who we are. That is it another thing is itself is not. Is a very huge missing part that missed from your own identity. Right. So with Gafa living story, I, for me personally, I feel it like as a safe place, as a safe space that you can put in your memories of what you actually had and document what it is now. Because it is important that we also don't.
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Just ignore that grief. We need to document what really happened on that land, but then also what we are looking for. And I know that the counter narrative of that a lot of people would say but it's not the time for you to dream about what you want it to be. But for me personally I think no, it is always like we have the right to dream and to re establish what we had and what we belong to. In the past there was barely like for a long time and I was the one of the people who also took that.
- [28:09]
For a long time. Where in certain spaces in Palestine, exactly where I grew there was the schools, like you're not allowed to say the name of the villages.
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Like in Arabic. So you would need to use the Israeli words for these villages. And so and within that like in the past we did not have a lot of technology. So obviously unless the person is super educated, they would properly don't understand where Israel existed from. Right. Where exactly it existed from.
- [28:46]
And therefore like I think here in 2025 we have a big opportunity which is, I know it's sad but still like we can improve, we can use all the technology to ensure that that erasure doesn't happen in any way. That erasure is not happening. People still can claim their spaces and they can pass it to their future generation. It that I would communicate to people in 20, 2050, for example, like about it because I don't want that to be only from the written story, from the verbal stories that your grandma telling you before, before going to sleep. No, this is something that we can visually establish and we can put it on the eyes of the world to see like what existed and what we want it to look like in the future.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah.
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C
And what we will build.
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A
Yeah. I just wanted to just make sure that people know how this operates. When I went Onto your website, Onto the site. Right. What I saw was a map, correct, A map of Gaza. And it had various places on it and some of them have been filled with.
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The past. This is where I. This is where I was in this particular place. I remember sitting in this cafe which is. And this is the present now. It's. It's completely obliterated. And then as you said, the dream, the future, where, where is it going to? Where, where do I want it to be? I will be coming back, I will be here, etc. Etc. So you've got the past, present and future. So they are short messages, almost short pinpoints. Aren't they saying this is what it was, this is what it is, this is what it is, will be.
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C
It's a web app that operates that all that is a very mobile friendly. So people can access it from everywhere, whether it's at mobile, tablet, web or any, any device.
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A
And who can input? Because how do you make sure that we don't get.
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We don't get colonizing input?
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C
That's a good question. Yeah, that's a challenge where we were thinking about a lot when we started because we did not want to get to that.
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B
There's just something in on that.
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Just because it's very funny like with any web app or like any digital products. Because we always try and follow a human centered design approach, right. Really only like build with the person you're building a mind for. You have to think of anyone who might try to use the tool. And I remember we were doing a design workshop and we had to build a user Persona for that very person. The person who's going to try and come and be harmful or you know, and map that out and think how we're going to mitigate that. So yeah, we've got a whole defined Persona around that person. But yeah, Lena, you can go to how we actually then try to mitigate it.
- [31:39]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's true. And then we thought that then this is where we would need to design something for the roles of verifiers. Obviously what we put in there is not we are looking for people to go ahead and verify and question people stories, but rather getting Palestinians themselves to verify stories from people in the way that it doesn't have colonized, as you said, not colonized or doesn't have any harmful content or. So we mainly put in a document that has all the guidelines for the verifiers to follow and they should be Palestinians and Arabic speaking in that sense. So why Palestinians? Because obviously they are the One who would be able to verify it in the way that is safe for everyone.
- [32:32]
A
So you have verifiers, that's the, you have human verifiers. That's the important point. Okay, okay. And if I, if I as a non Palestinian, but somebody who wants to know exactly what's going on now in Gaza and wants that, can I get the app?
- [32:55]
B
Yeah, so on any device. So as long as you've got access to the Internet then you can go to Gaza. Livingstory.org sorry, say that again.
- [33:05]
A
I go to where?
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B
Gazalivingstory.org right. And then that will, that will then take you to the map. So it's been fully optimized to work on mobile, tablet and so on.
- [33:21]
We built it in this way to also make sure it can work ideally in low data access so that it can also be accessible for people in Gaza. As easy as possible to get onto it, to be able to share their stories as well. So those are the things as always. It's very early in it, its journey, but that's where we are right now. What we'd like to do further is also make it available. That could work offline for example, as well. But yeah, that's all step by step, you know.
- [33:50]
A
Ahmad, tell me something about now. Complimenting that we have now Waves to Home and tell me about the storytelling project of Waves to Home for Gaza particularly.
- [34:04]
D
A few months ago we started our Gaza project where we were wanting to collect stories from people living there. We wanted to know how they were living, how they were affected by the war during the last two years that it was happening. And we wanted to learn more about them as humans and how they struggled and how they see the future. What are their goals, their aspirations and what they hope to achieve.
- [34:40]
The stories were very beautiful and very heartwarming. We learned how much people struggle there in terms of being under constant threat every second, like at any point, moment. It could have been the end for anyone. They had, they were subjected to a lot of violence, a lot of brutal scenes and even brutal sounds. When you take into account like the missiles, the gun, the shootings and the gunfire, it was very horrendous and very traumatizing for everyone. But on the, on the opposite side, you still see strength, you still see hope coming from them and you still see dreams that never shattered and never crumbled under the pressure. We had some people who wanted to teach little children, they didn't want them to grow, not knowing how to write or read. So of course, as we all know Schools were suspended during this time. And one storyteller in particular, she didn't want children to become less educated than other children in other areas or countries. So she started a project that was called School Tents, where she would have tents set up next to each other. And she and others, several other individuals, collaborated to teach children how to read and write. That was very beautiful. And even in other, in other cases, you had people still wanting to pursue their education and pursue their dream of becoming a lawyer or becoming a doctor, despite the harsh and brutal conditions they had been living in for so long and they're still living in today. It was very beautiful, very inspiring. The project was very beautiful. And we were able to collect many stories.
- [37:02]
That, that are like that.
- [37:05]
A
Ahmed, where can our listeners go and see those stories? And when, what form do they see those stories?
- [37:18]
D
So at this moment we are working on sharing the stories on social media, like on Instagram, on LinkedIn, and of course our website.
- [37:32]
A
It's waves to home.org, right? That's the website, all one word, waves to home. And so I can, if I basically, if, if anybody listening to this wants to be able to see or hear or whatever those stories, they can go onto the website and they can actually do so.
- [37:53]
D
Correct, correct, correct. In.
- [37:57]
A
In video form. Sorry, Ahmed. In video form. And written.
- [38:00]
D
Written form.
- [38:01]
A
In audio form. In what?
- [38:05]
D
So we have the stories in all, in all kinds of forms. So we have some videos, we have some photos, and we even have written texts under them that narrate the full, the whole story of the storyteller. They would need to click on a link and look for a specific name or a title or the title of that person's story and they could just find everything there.
- [38:39]
A
So actually the, the two organizations complement each other, don't they? Because you have the long form stories about people talking about their experiences and then you've got this mapping and pinpointing stories that you guys at YALA are doing. Is that right? So are you working, do you work together at all? Do you cooperate?
- [39:01]
D
So, yes, we do have a lot in common with yala. We recently started cooperating and right now we're mainly working on social media collaboration in terms of sharing the stories there from, you know, both our ends. And we are still discussing how to move forward. Maybe Lena and Cho can give you a better idea of where this is going.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah, there's a few different ways. Like one is we've been speaking about also posting some of those stories on, on Gaza linking story and kind of putting those, like linking them to like locations and then also kind of then directing people to read the longer form stories on Waves to Home. So that's something we're kind of looking at. I think also we've been talking about how for those who share stories what the way that our organizations can quite work quite well together. I think with with Gaza living stories almost like you said they're like fairly short story is part of purposely designed to be as kind of frictionless as possible to encourage people to contribute. I think what you know and you can speak to this more because obviously from Ways Home but why I kind of really like from what I've seen Ways to Home is also that that going into much longer form stories where you really get to understand like the person and is really quite powerful. And then also the work they've done around setting up storytelling circles as a way of helping to work with trauma and as a kind of way of therapy and support. And I think there is, there's something interesting to me is around whether we could you know if someone starts off with sharing just a short memory and whether that if you know after they've contributed we can say by the way if you're looking for other ways to connect with others and to share then you could maybe get involved in these sharing circles within Waves the home. I think like that could be. I would love to see that be achieved because I think that's then us offering further value beyond what we both were looking to achieve with our respective products. And I think those kind of forms of collaboration we're having another call with some other organizations doing interesting work here in Gaza. It's so hard to find the time for those collaborations because we're all just struggling with whether it's funding requirements or just resourcing and stuff like that. But I think those collaborations are going to be so important now because that's how we become bigger than the sum of our parts. And I think finding creative ways of doing that.
- [41:56]
And and making that an intuitive journey across our digital platforms like that's the great thing that digital can allow. You know, you can move from one place to another with just one click. And so yeah really interested to maybe this is a shout to any other kind of organizations that might be listening. You know, I think just chatting and finding these ways to collaborate I think is very important.
- [42:19]
A
Yeah, I think that's that that's your, your idea of actually getting you know the, the short term form contributors and then encouraging them to, to produce their long form stories is is. Is important because it also Creates, doesn't it? It also creates trust within, within that network, if you like that. Oh, I've seen your short story. I now, I now would like to see something more about you sort of thing. The other thing that strikes me is that, you know.
- [42:48]
Colonization, occupation, displacement, all those things specialize in amputation. They amputate people, they amputate communities. And what the power of, the power of organizations and projects such as yours, both of yours is, is that you are able to network, to link to. So back those links, whims, if you like to sew back those, those stories and those, those histories. And I think that's, that's really important.
- [43:20]
Have you learned from other organizations? I mean, for example, the, the organizations that have, you know, resurrected and brought back the stories of native North Americans, whether they are in, in, in the US or in, in Canada, you know, the South African.
- [43:36]
C
A couple of months ago. I've connected to a lady who is a friend from Vancouver. But I, as they've said like she, I can't remember exactly the full format, but she said like Vancouver is not what we should call it, right. And then she is actually from the survivors. She is originally from the original people of the land who has been then obviously being colonized. And then it turned to be what is it now like as the modern Vancouver.
- [44:06]
She told me that what is really sad about their story is that they had over 100 million people in the past being mass killed. However, there are not much people like herself who is going and reaching organizations from different places and talking about this story and where she offered support. She told me in our conversation that I don't want Palestinian people to have the same experience. We can't obviously go back in the past to change it, but we can look for the future and change what is happening and how we can talk about how we can mention it. And then she also corrected some terminology I used because she was like, she tells me that it's really important that you choose your words wisely as you talk about these historic genocides because you wanted to ensure that you are not erasing any of the identity and you are using the colonizer words in some, in some things. So yeah, that was a very eye opening for myself. I've also connected to some people in the UK from Kashmir who is like an area like, you know, like where it was also being colonized. And they've also told me about how the generational trauma.
- [45:37]
Happened for them and how it helped them so much that to build their identity again in the younger generation. And as we were doing building as a living story, I had that conversation with Dausif who is a university professor. And he was pointing me to some things around the language of how we could encourage people to claim their spaces in the way that of, of the way that how we write the different messages for them. Because they shouldn't feel like the last thing you want is someone Palestinian feeling insecure writing in that platform like that they might into trouble because obviously that is the thing that we need to ensure people are not even feeling like about it, you know.
- [46:37]
So yeah, I mean I've connected like to these people like they've been a lot of eye opening like for myself and they've highlighted so much the fact that you would need to talk about these things so other people can hear about it. Because I've also connected to a Mexican lady who've told me that she, you know, like the indigenous people of Mexico they had 300 languages spoken. And.
- [47:06]
Right now people only recognize Spanish as the spoken language in Mexico. And a lot of younger generation people hardly they know that there was indigenous people, indigenous language there belongs to the land. And, and barely she told me in that barely few people know that for example California belonged to the indigenous people in Mexico just short like not a very long time ago. And she offered at the time that she wanted to translate Gaza living stories into Spanish. She still have that offered valid because she thinks that she want to connect our story with stories for children and for schools with Mexico stories. So she would show them how they can still.
- [48:01]
Maintain and keep their identity with the way that of the storytelling. Because when you build the story for people, it's not just you're communicating their stories, but you're also encouraging others to talk about the unspoken stories that a lot of people, unless they read much they, they wouldn't be able to know about.
- [48:22]
A
Yeah, and that's that. That's actually exactly what I what I was hoping you would say. It is this strengthening of people who have so much in common. All displaced people.
- [48:38]
All migrants in fact, if you like, whether they are forced migrants or whether they are displaced or whether they are are victims of attempted obliteration, have a huge amount in common. And it is in that strength that actually telling each other's stories that you find the strength of your organization. Possible.
- [49:05]
Question to each of you in turn. How do you make sure that the story of Gaza and the Palestinians.
- [49:17]
And yes there is corollary that it'll be the story of all migrants, if you like as well is heard loudly, strongly powerfully and continues to be sustained. Joe, do you want to take that first?
- [49:36]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [49:39]
We're keen for the underlying tech of Gaza living story to be open for anyone to use so it can be replicable for other areas, other communities where their voice is being silenced as a way to, you know, be able to have a similar thing like this and to be able to collect and share stories. And I guess like trying to loop that then into your question, I think.
- [50:09]
You know, saying I was at this doc, this documentary on the weekends that was focusing on the massacre in, in Tantora or Palestine people as part of the Nagba and.
- [50:24]
And how. And there's someone there who was talking and she was saying she was from Palestine actually. Great, like, like from like 18 miles away and grew up not even really knowing that story. Right. And there's really interesting conversation around how that thing about like history being written by, you know, the, the powerful and then the oral story sitting with the people that are being oppressed and being marginalized. Right. But I think the light you hit on at the very start of your, at the start of this podcast is those stories. It's through those stories that it does get preserved. That story of Tantoro did emerge, you know, and it was preserved through the stories of the people around the end, passing that on. And there's many, many, many, many stories. You know, the, the stories that we have on Gaza living stories just not even a fraction of the memories that can be shared right now and the home hopes and dreams of the future. And you know, it's that classic thing of the many versus the one. I think it's always very. We're constantly being made to feel that the, the many can't be powerful. But I honestly, I think what digital does allow us to do, and we've seen this in the way that, you know, the, the way that the coverage of what was going in Gaza couldn't be fully shot off from the public. And the way that it's, it's, you know, managed to reach, reach people. And I think that's the, that's the important thing we need to do is just keep stories, as many stories and keep talking and in so many different places and with so many people that it's just impossible for it to be cut off. It's, it's the classic thing of decentralization as a way to ensure that it can never be. Be shut down. So that's where I see, that's where I really see the potential where we need to focus and that's through collaboration, it's through decentralization and just constantly sharing these stories.
- [52:31]
A
Ahmed, same question to you. How do you make sure, in short, that the stories of Gaza, the stories of Palestinians, whether in Gaza, the West bank, everywhere, becomes part of, of the common global folklore?
- [52:52]
D
Yes, I think what, what we can do is continuing what we are doing now, all of us, Winston Home and Mellow Labs and so many other organizations which is talking about the matter, interviewing people from there, sharing their stories between ourselves and on digital spaces like our websites and social media and so on, we will need to continue preserving their culture, their language, their character.
- [53:32]
In our, in the stories we've collected, we can see so many cultural aspects that are, are specific to Gaza. For example.
- [53:44]
They'Re only unique to it. And we've discovered that even within Palestine itself, the occupation is trying to divide them geographically. They're trying to make or force Palestinians in so many ways to forget their original culture, culture, their traditions, their customs, their heritage, their language.
- [54:13]
We like, for example, there are people, many people in Gaza who have never seen a Palestinian from the west bank and they don't know much about the west bank, like its traditions or customs, even though they're people, people of the same nation and country. So I think other than sharing on social media and digital spaces, I think it's also our responsibility to share the story of Palestine and Gaza with our children and grandchildren later on so that they know the truth and they're not brainwashed by the global media today that is trying to erase and eradicate this culture. And I think it this what I also want to say is similar to what Lena said previously. It's the language.
- [55:16]
Of course. Like we have dialects and sub dialects in every country.
- [55:24]
We, when we in Waves to Home try to collect stories from storytellers. We usually encourage them to write their story in their language and their dialect. I think that is an excellent point to look at because it also keeps the dialect documented and preserved for years to come. Like for what Lena previously said in the beginning is, for example, if in 2050, I want to show, let's say, someone a story about Gaza, how they live and what their culture and language look like. I could just look up a story on Race to Home, for example, and see how they used to talk, how their life was, how their culture was.
- [56:18]
Before the war, and even how they survived the war during the last two years and how strong they are.
- [56:28]
A
Okay, Lena, I'm going to just narrow it down a little bit because here I'm going to be quite cynical Here. And my question is, yes, fine. We can, you know, we document and we document the stories, as Ahmed was saying, and they can be read and seen in 50 years time. We can distribute, as Joe said, widely as possible.
- [56:56]
How do we stop people from turning away? Because you know what? They can turn away. They don't have to go to the archives to find what's been going on, what was going on 50 years ago. How do you stop people from turning away so that the story of the Palestinians is as relevant to people in Mexico, in Australia, in Indonesia as it is in Gaza?
- [57:29]
C
Yeah, there is a lot of elements here as, yeah. As I want to previously said, like if, for example, for me personally, if someone now talks about Lebanon, right.
- [57:48]
Maybe how I see Lebanon story is very different from someone in the US who would see like what is happening in Lebanon. And the reason, because I can just think about Lebanon, what is happening, and I can tie it strongly to what is happening in Palestine, right. And similarly of what is happening in Ukraine, because I would empathize deeply because I would know exactly what people are facing since like I am having a similar story or a similar experience. With that being said, there are obviously the UK made it easy because they colonized 60 countries, right? So there is very good, a lot of countries.
- [58:35]
Who has already been colonized by one country who is already faced the same, right. With a history of being.
- [58:43]
Having so much problems afterward. So that the problem is with Palestine, it's started by being colonized from the UK and then being colonized by what they call Israel. And so, and then within this sense, people then if you start tying this story to their stories, what they are. I hate it so much when people say something like, I don't want to get in politics, but I would tell them like, this is very cynical because politics is everything. Like it's not really, I mean, shaping it as politics and trying to isolate it. It's really, you're helping others like.
- [59:23]
Like this world more. Sorry for the language, but because what we are getting, for the salaries, what the opportunities are getting, how the prices are in the world, how the housing is happening, the education, our children having, the education we're having, it's all tied into what is happening on the scene, right? So we can't be in isolation. So that is educating people in that sense, that that is what is happening in Gaza. One is connected historically to what is happening with you. Because we've been colonized, you've been colonized, we're facing the consequences. It's not your fault that you have a lack of opportunities. There is that happened for a reason. Someone stole your resources and this happens in Palestine. So that is one thing. But then the other on the present it is happening because right now people are suffering in the US from lack of insurance of the insurance cut of the medical insurance because the US is sending arm to Israel. So obviously people are suffering on a daily basis because of what is happening in Gaza. What is happening in Gaza on the environmental catastrophe is not something ties to Gaza. It's going to affect the entire planet for the next 50 years at least. So what I'm trying to say, you would need to connect two things, the past and the present that they are facing into what is happening now and the future as well. Because that would all affect the future. What happens in Palestine can happen in any country. People need to understand that there's no limits, right? So if you think that you're safe because you're a white person, that is not true. You can anytime be colonized and you can anytime the history kind of liberal itself. So just trying to tell people that they can't be that isolated from what is really happening. So this is another thing that really I'm thinking about. So these are all one direction. But there is also, you know, another direction of it which is my friend Anam. When the genocide started was massively over and Matt were massively like trying to help Palestinians like raising fund months because obviously you can't live for two years without anything. And then she came up with a very smart idea. She was like, you know what if I am asking people to donate for. I would get some donations from a distance way but I would get people to support each other. But this is not enough. I can do something else. I can start connecting people together, making one family connected to another family in Palestine. They will would by the connection experience what they are seeing in the daily basis. They would be a part of their life every day. They would talk about what happened in the day, what is how they feel. And that is enough in itself. That would make them have a lived experience of that person. Because I am sure what Joe's feeling about Palestine and Gaza is very different from his neighbor who is is not working with Palestinians. Right. So it's obviously different. So it is more of connecting people together to have the experience together. Because if you're connecting people together you would know oh my goodness, okay, I've seen it's different from you would do. You wouldn't about the humanization because the opposite of that. You would see people being a poverty. And you would say, yeah, but they have been always that, forever. But then if you know your friend, for example, no. Who has been trying the entire morning to find rice for her children, but she wasn't able to. She got back to her tent, she found it flooded with water. She is unable to get her children warm. And that person you are raising money for every day, this you have, the personal connection you would start caring about, Nouri would start experiencing a little bit of what these are people experiencing. You would listen to their stories. Stories every day. And that would make it completely different for you.
- [63:20]
B
Yeah.
- [63:21]
A
Yeah. Thank you. There are so many different aspects. One is telling the stories to each other, if you like, but also telling the stories to the world. Telling the stories to heal, telling the stories to remember, telling the stories to project. Telling the stories to make sure that people feel.
- [63:44]
What is happening.
- [63:47]
Thank you all very, very much. I wish you all the best and may this go from strength to strength. Today's guests were Lena Ayesh and Joe Friel from Yala Labs and Ahmed Jafil from Waves to Home. You can find Gaza Living story at Gaza livingstory, all1word.org both in English and Arabic. I think it's a brilliant, very moving way of enabling people from Gaza to record their very personal experiences of specific places and periods of their lives and how they want their future to look like. And for us to be as close as possible to feeling that experience. Waves to home. Just as moving is where you'll find longer stories, not just from Palestine, but from Sudan, Lebanon, Syria and other countries whose people have been forced out. Waves to home, all1word.org so, as always, thanks for listening. Please subscribe and please support. I'm Stephen Barden. This has been another episode of Migrant. Odd to see.