← Migrant Odyssey
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:09]
B
Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey. I'm Stephen Barton. My guest today is Casey Hodo from Bologna in Italy. Born in Albania, she arrived in Italy at the age of. Of 10 and now has a master's degree from the University of Bologna. I think it's safe to say Casey is one of the faces of a campaign to reduce the requirements for citizenship in Italy from 10 years of continuous residency to 5. Her organization, Dalla Parte Giusta del Astoria, together with their allies political, labor and social, have succeeded in gathering enough, actually more than enough signatures for a national referendum to be held on the 8th and 9th of June in a few days, in fact. But much more of that later. Casey, welcome to Migrant Odyssey.
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A
Thank you. It's nice to be here.
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B
This podcast, as you probably know, has at least two eccentricities. It's seldom linear, and it's always about stories. So just so that we can get both of those foibles out first, where do you go to when you want to feel safe? Where you feel you can't be touched? What I mean by that is a friend of mine said to me some time ago that when he was running, nothing could touch him. And for me, if I want to feel completely isolated and safe, it's reading novels and sometimes writing, but mostly reading. Where's yours?
- [01:47]
A
Okay, nice question, Steven. We're starting strong, I have to say. But for me, I mean, if I could choose, it would be the sea underwater. I don't have access to the sea always. Unfortunately, living in Bologna, sea is one hour away by car. And it's not my favorite sea because my favorite sea is the one in Albania. So a bit far from home. But yeah, when I think of the safest place, it would be underwater, in the sea or whenever I cannot go to the sea, I think it will be my best friends. I have two in particular, two best friends. And our chats, I think, are one of the safest places. Yeah. Where I can go.
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B
And. And where's home for you? When you. Where's your. Where does your heart say? I mean, to put it soberly, but where does your heart say home is? Where do you really feel? Ah, I'm home now.
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A
Okay. For me, it's about places, but more than places, it's about people. Especially. In the last months, I've traveled a lot, and I have to say that I've come to the realization that home cannot be just one place, but it's about the feeling and the people you are with. So for me, home is my parents, of course, my Family, my parents and my brother is my grandparents. So that would be Albania fier my city. But it's also my, my friends. It's also. So for me it's like the people I care about, their home.
- [03:30]
B
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that home really is about relationships, isn't it? It's not. Some people may, may say that, you know, they feel at home in a particular place, but it's actually remembering or feeling the relationships, the strong relationships, I think. Yeah, that echoes with me as well.
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A
So yeah.
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B
You came to Italy when you were 10, what was that like for you? Tell me.
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A
Oh, that was okay. First emotion that comes to kind to mind. Sorry. Is a negative one because it's frustration. Frustration because I had to leave behind my friends, my school. For me school was really important and it has always actually been still important. So it felt like I was abandoning my education at some extent. And I felt really frustrated because when I came to Bologna, to Italy, I didn't know Italian. So it was really hard, especially at the beginning because I didn't quite understand what was happening around me. And you know, I. I couldn't speak and tell people how I was, how I was feeling and whatever I needed. So it was really hard. But I have to say that I also felt really welcomed in Bologna. I like both at school and in my neighborhood, we were really lucky because the people that surrounded us were really welcoming and kind and everybody was really helpful. I have to say same doesn't apply to public institutions, unfortunately, especially immigration offices. Immigration? Yeah, institutions. They didn't. That didn't feel welcoming at all. But the people, the people in Bologna absolutely were.
- [05:27]
B
Yeah. I suspect that institutions very rarely, even in the most welcoming of countries feel welcoming and warm. But interesting that your first reaction was you're now a 10 year old girl, right? And your first reaction was frustration. I have to leave my home and I have to leave my pet and my family and at least my friends and I can't understand Italian. What the hell is going on here? So it wasn't. That's the strongest emotion rather than anxiety, fear, confusion, things like that. Is that right?
- [06:06]
A
Yeah, I have to say so, like, I know maybe it doesn't make sense, but I swear like the first thing that comes to mind is frustration because I just remember being at school and like a lot of the kids, my classmates talking to me and I couldn't understand them. So I was like just so frustrated and angry at myself and my parents even because I couldn't understand what they were saying. To me. And that was really, I don't know, difficult because I. I felt left out, even though they didn't leave me out, of course, because they were trying to communicate with me. But.
- [06:39]
B
Yeah, but it says something about you, doesn't it, as a person, that you felt frustration rather than. And you were put in a class lower than the one you were in Albania, is that right? And that was something.
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A
That was part of the frustration.
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B
That was something that exploded as well. So how long did it take you to be. To be. To be fluent in Italian?
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A
I think I was fluent in Italian with. Within six months, because I studied, I swear, day and night. Like, I wouldn't go to bed if I didn't repeat all the verbs, the conjugations, all the grammar. Like, for me, the language was the first thing, because I really hated not being able to communicate with people. So I studied so hard. I remember I still have some. Like, I used to write short stories or even, like, basically use, like, other books and print out images and create my own short stories. And then I would write them in Italian and give them to my teacher, and she would correct them and give them back to me. So I really wanted to be able to speak, to write everything. So, yeah, within six months, I think I was, yeah, completely fluent in Italian, both spoken and written.
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B
Bologna, unless I'm very much mistaken, is actually quite liberal in its political outlook, isn't it? And quite welcoming to immigrants and migrants. Did you ever feel not welcomed by people, by ordinary people?
- [08:19]
A
I have to say I've never felt. Not welcome or unwelcome in any situation within, like, the city and the people of the city. I have to say I've never felt that way. I've been. I understand I've been really lucky. And I think it's also. Also about my appearance, because I look like an Italian. Like, so that's. Of course, I'm really conscious about the fact that that has been a huge part of me never feeling unwelcome, because talking to, especially my friends, also in the LA part, whenever you don't look like the, you know, mainstream Italian that people like mainstream Italians think that Italians should look like or they look like, of course, the story is different. So with me being like, my appearance, I think has helped. Having said that, it's also true that Bologna is quite liberal city. It's very welcoming also because here we have the most ancient university in the world. So the city is used to people coming from all over the world to Bologna and living here, studying.
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B
We're going to do a quick skip over the school bit. But then you went to Bologna University and did a bachelor's degree, and then thereafter you've done a master's at the grad school there. Your interest, from what you were telling me when we first met, is clearly political and national, even European and national. But in order to do that sort of work, you need to be a citizen, don't you need to be a citizen of your country? So how have you satisfied that need? Tell me some of the projects that you've been working on, in particular, your work in juvenile prisons, for example.
- [10:29]
A
Yeah, it's true. I mean, I've always been interested in politics since I was in middle school, I have to say, because I was youth counselor for the youth council of my area. I was elected. So yeah, it was really fun experience. And then from then on, I think I've done a lot of things now and then that have basically shaped me as a human being that is really interested into political and social work and civic work. So, yeah, I've been engaged in many activities here. One of the activities as you were mentioning was in the juvenile prison, because I've worked with an association and it's called Next Generation Italy, which is an association of new generation Italians, so people with migrant backgrounds. And basically this association carries out a lot of activities of informal or non formal learning. And one of these activities has been in a juvenile prison of Bologna. It was for me was really interesting because the whole activity we did there was focus on identity, which is a very, very heavy topic for anyone, not only for people that were inside the, the prison. And you know, it was at the beginning very confusing for me because it looked like. It didn't look like if it hadn't, I hadn't been surrounded by the guards and the environment itself, of course, because you have, you go in, you have to wait for the authorization to go in and then you have to wait for the guards to come every door. So that tells you, okay, this is prison, but the guys, because this is the, the male, the male juvenile prison. I went to the guys. It felt like any other class, you know, school. So I was really confused at the beginning. And then you start the storytelling sessions and you know, they start to open up a little bit and then you realize what they've lived through. And you try, of course, to absorb what they're telling you and try to really accommodate the activity towards their needs, because at the end it's about them, not about the activity or you. So, yeah, it was really, really interesting and I felt really accomplished by the end of the activity. We've already done with the activity. Of course. I'll go back to say hi to the guys because we really bonded. And yeah, in the beginning it was really diffic to also to, to create a relationship for them to, to feel safe enough to open up, but also with the guards, because the guards, like at the beginning they were always coming in checking on the guys. But then they started to realize that the activity was going on and we were okay. Like everybody was okay, so. And also we asked them not to come in so, so often because it was really like. Yeah, it was really nerving both to us, like to us, the activity leaders and the guys. And yeah, by the end of the, the sessions it was like very hard to say goodbye both for, for, for them and us because we really started to bond and to share our own stories, which is really powerful I think, especially in those spaces because they, they don't get to feel safe enough to share their story there.
- [14:18]
B
So what was, what did you want to, what did you want to change? What did the project want to change? I assume you went in there, when you went in there, you look, you saw them as a group, right? You saw these young men as a group. Were you trying to actually get them to, to understand their identity and to build an identity which they felt they could respect themselves? Is that what you were doing? Is that what you were trying to do?
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A
Exactly, yes, exactly. To understand their identity, but also as a way to see themselves outside of there, you know, to. You have to build a strong identity, you have to build strong character, I think in order to survive on the outside and not go back to the reasons or the actions that brought you there. So that was our main goal.
- [15:13]
B
When was that? How long ago is that?
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A
It was from February to end of April. So yeah, we just, just finished it.
- [15:25]
B
It would be interesting to see what happens to these young men in say two years time, whether the reoffending has increased or whatever. And these, these were mostly young men who we put in to prison for what, what sort of, what sort of crimes?
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A
Okay. I never asked them specifically because I didn't want to know. Like, I don't, I don't care. I mean, for, for me they were just adolescents or young, younger men who, who I did this activity with. But I think majority of them were in there for like drug related crimes, like small crimes, you know. And also their stories, like their background tells you a lot. Most of them came from difficult situations, like both family situations, work Related situations. So, you know, there's a reason why people are in prisons, I think this majority of people. And it really makes you wonder and you know, reflect on prison as an institution overall and how prison is perceived within society and what it should be like.
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B
Yeah, yeah, I quite agree with you. It's, you know, it's. Is prison where you put people in and forget about them or is prison where you want them to become better citizens? Or is prison punishment? All those, all those, all those things. And what was the link with? You also were linked with Biographilm, is that right? You were talking to me about the. The Biography Festival was. Link to the Juvenile Prisons project.
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A
Yeah, yeah. Actually the. The project is still going on now because the Biography Film Festival is in the summer and the guys now right now are doing the second part of the project where they are watching some biographic films that are competing in the festival and they will be the judges of the festival. So that's very, very cool aspect of this project that we built the group like with the first sessions and we try to make them, you know, reflect on themselves and then now they're watching someone else's life, you know, because it's all biographic films. So. And then they will judge and yeah, choose the winner of the festival.
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B
For those who don't know what the biographic film festival is, could you tell them something about that?
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A
Yeah, they are going to judge a portion of the. An aspect. A portion of the festival. They will judge the biographic films and they will select a winner. Some of them actually would be able even to go there and watch what is going on on the festival too. And yeah, the Biography and Film Festival is a festival that is carried out in Bologna yearly in the summer. And it focuses on biographic movies. It focuses on, you know, self reflection and you know, stories. As your podcast.
- [18:31]
B
As my podcast, yeah. So time to talk about the campaign. Why was it launched? What's it. What's its purpose?
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A
Okay, basically the referendum campaign was launched in end of August, beginning of September in Italy. The constitution grants citizens this instrument of direct democracy which is the referendum for which you have to collect at least 500000 signatures. And afterwards that you can propose a change of law or law and so on. Then the constitutional court has to prove the. To approve it. And then you go to actual. The voting stage. The actual voting stage. This referendum about the citizenship law was much needed in Italy because every attempt that has been made in the last years has not been successful. Any attempt, I mean, towards changing the Law, because the law is really old. It's from 1992 and it regulates the acquisition.
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B
If that's old, then I'm. Then I made you. What do you mean it's old?
- [19:46]
A
Okay, but wait, think. Think it. Age, like people aging terms. Think about how Italy looked like in 1992 and how Italy looks now in 2025. It's two different countries. You cannot even compare them, because Italy of 1992 was an immigration country. People used to. Italians used to migrate to other countries, whereas now Italy is an immigration country. So people from outside of Italy are coming here, are building their families, their life here in Italy. So this. According to this law, citizenship depends on blood. And this is okay when you have to basically maintain a relationship between the people who have emigrated and, you know, at the mother country. So that makes sense. But then 30 years on, more than 30 years on, you have all of these new people that are coming in Italy that of course don't have Italian ancestors. And what do you do about them? Do you not consider them Italians part of the society where they're born into, or they grow up in, or even working and contribute to. With money, with taxes, you know, paying taxes, working for this country, People who love this country and feel part of it. And this law doesn't account for these people. So we attempted various time to change the law. All the other attempts have failed because the law has remained the same. So last year there was this idea of the referendum. So let's see what Italian society actually thinks about this law. We collected the signatures in September, within 20 days, which is actually a record, like historical record for Italy. And it was the first time that it was done online. Like, every signature was collected online on a platform of the Ministry of Interior, the Italian Ministry of Interior. So once we collected the. The signatures, it was time to actually. Because, you know, signatures are not easy, but the easiest part of the whole process. Then you have to actually talk about it, because it's really important. Many people don't realize what not having Italian citizenship means. It means you cannot vote. You said before, I'm really into politics and social work, but I'm a person who is really, really active politically and socially in our city, in Bologna. But I've never voted. I'm not represented in any institution. I'm invisible to the institutions of this country because I cannot express my vote.
- [22:41]
B
Not even at local. Not even at local level.
- [22:44]
A
Not. Not even the local level. This is very problematic. I've grown up here. I mean, I've grown up here Since I was 10 years old, we were telling before. So I'm much over Bolognese as any of my classmates who have grown up with since elementary school. So, yeah, with the referendum, we are trying to change a tiny, tiny bit of this law, which is not sufficient. I mean, this is only the beginning. I will tell this to anyone, because also with my association with the La Partejosa della Historia, our final objective is to reform, to completely reform the law, which also has some economic, economic aspects to it. You have to also hand out a certificate that attests that you're not a criminal. And, you know, like, you know, this year I've had to go through all the application process for citizenship because I finally had all of my, you know, documents in line, and I had to go to Albania and ask for a penal certificate to demonstrate that in 10 years of my life in Albania I had not committed any crime. Like, this is not okay. I mean, this is not okay. You are asking if a 10 year old is a criminal because they were born in Albania. And it's also very costly. Like, it's very expensive. All of this process is really expensive because you have to translate all the documents, you have to go back to your home country, then you come here to Italy, you pay €250, plus all the related costs to the office that helps you with the documents, because it's really difficult. So you always go to someone for help, and in the end you have to wait three to four years. So nothing of all of these changes. It changes only the fact that if the referendum passes, once you come to Italy, you can apply for citizenship after five years instead of 10, which means that.
- [24:48]
B
And then it takes about three years anyway, doesn't it? After that?
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A
Yes, exactly. Which means that still we're talking about 10 to nine years of waits, of waiting time, and now it's 13 to 14.
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B
So what would happen, say, to a refugee from, I don't know, Rwanda who came to Italy, would they have to go through exactly the same process? I mean, would that person have to go back to Rwanda or what? Is that different?
- [25:19]
A
No, that's. Yeah, that's completely different process. Because the residency, citizenship, acquisition, it applies only to people who are legal residents for job purposes or for family reunification and so on. Whereas the refugee system works in completely different ways. For instance, refugees in Italy, they can ask for citizenship after five years, actually. So when they arrive, they still, I mean, even the refugee process, honestly, is really messed up in Italy because there's actually we have the cipiare, which are these Centers for that, basically, where they put people who are waiting for their refugee status application. They're actually prisons. I mean, I cannot define them in any other way because people are kept closed in there and it's a prison. The conditions are unacceptable, are inhumane, actually, according to lower refugees, they cannot go back actually to their home country because if they come from a country where they're endangered, they lose their refugee status actually, if they go back to their home country. So the process is completely different. Yeah.
- [26:40]
B
So you needed to get what, 500,000 signatures, which you did. Correct. You got more than that. Is that. Am I. I'm right in that? And you got them in record time. What has been the reaction of the government, which is not exactly known for its being pro immigration? What do they want? Do they want high publicity or do they want low publicity?
- [27:08]
A
They want no publicity.
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B
They want no publicity. Why?
- [27:12]
A
Yeah, which is what they're doing at the moment, because the news about the referendum is not being published anywhere, not even national television, which it should be by law, because by law, when you. Whenever you have a national election, we are obliged to inform people about the election on national television, which we pay for with taxes. So they are not even doing that at the moment. And this is a huge problem for us because a lot of people, even those who agree with us and would like to help us and that are our allies, they don't even know that the referendum is going to happen on the 8th and 9th of June, which is. I don't know, it's very, very frustrating. We go back to frustration. But also it's dangerous because referendum, especially the referendum, is a very important instrument of democracy because it's direct votes of the people. So a government who invites people not to go to vote or that renders this news, the news about the voting, invisible, is a government that is not doing its job well. Because regardless whether you are, we agree or not, whether this is within your politics or not, you should still invite people to go vote, because that's huge. Like affluency to voting polls is a huge problem in Italy, and not only in Italy, by the way, but here especially, it's a huge problem. So you are basically inviting people not to exercise this fundamental right, the right to vote, therefore, basically rendering Italian democracy weaker. Because when people don't go to vote, it means that democracy is weak. Something is not working.
- [29:10]
B
No, because. So, because, Casey, one of the things, one of the barriers you have to cross is not only do you need to get a majority, you need to. You need to have 50% plus 1 plus 1 the population to vote. Is that correct? Yeah, 50% plus 1 of the voting population to vote in order for it to be valid. And then you need to get a majority, whatever. Yeah. Who are the allies that have been. Have come out and support? I know that for example, Labour, some of the unions have come out and support and you've got number of the political parties. But I also read, which I found quite. I don't know if this is still valid, that at the time that you got the. The cleared the. For getting the rev. The referendum, that Forza Italia were indicating that they would back you. Is that correct?
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A
Yes, it is, surprisingly.
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B
So why are they backing you?
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A
Basically, starting from August, Diani, which is leader of Forza Italia, he was basically supporting the idea of changing the citizenship law in order to accommodate for the changing of society, of Italian society. So they were basically making, of course, like the proposal of Force Italia is very different from ours because we work for a more comprehensive citizenship law and actually the concept of citizenship itself. So for this reduced version of our proposal. But still they were the initiators of the discourse on citizenship even in August. Now I have to say it has changed because now they are against. Against the referendum because of course, you know, it's a political game. So now Tyani has gone out to say that they won't support, they don't support the referendum, then they invite people not to go to vote. So, you know, it's very. Actually it's very fun that you reminded me of this because it shows just within months how politics change. But I mean, of course, I'm not naive. I know how politics work and the games of politics work because maybe they're afraid of us now. Maybe in August he didn't realize that he was supporting what was going to be one of the biggest, biggest referendum campaigns that goes from northern to southern Italy, but even outside of Italy, because the voting population you mentioned before is also people who live outside Italians, who live outside of Italy, they can vote still. They didn't realize that this is going to be huge and that there was. We were going to build such an incredible network of people coming for different backgrounds, but also people who maybe before they didn't even realize, you know, the citizenship question and how important it was for Italy itself. And now we've come all together and it's been amazing. Actually, for me, even this is like a win because we've built a network of people all over Italy of associations, of. Yeah, even parties, political parties of different types of Organizations and also people who now know what this is about and want change in order to achieve change, they're all ready to work for it, even after the 8th and 9th of June. And I think that makes them fear us.
- [33:19]
B
So these organizations that you formed alliances with. Two final questions. Basically, these organizations that you formed alliances with, do you have enough in common for them to form, to continue to be allies of yours after the referendum? Is there an aim, a goal, a vision that will continue after the referendum, whether it fails or succeeds? And what is that vision.
- [33:55]
A
If I have to, to say it in just two words or three better would be a more justice, more just Italy. We want a more just Italy. This country is said to be a country that respects state of law, that respects its constitution, which is said to be one of the most beautiful in the whole world, because it contains a lot of aspects that, you know, we're brought up for the first time in the world by Italian constitutionalists. And I agree with that, I've studied it a lot. But as of now, the situation is really bad, because even with this government, but not only this government, I mean, I feel like also the last governments that have been here have led to a moment where people are really afraid of the future of the country, because we have a lot of neo fascists organizations that daily there's some news about them that's very frightening. Okay, like the fastest past, the colonialist part of this country is really something to think about and to take into consideration when you talk about politics. Because I feel like Italy, especially with its colonial past, it has not dealt with it yet. So whenever you've not dealt with something so big, then there's a danger that it will come back. So that's what we have in common. We are frightened about the future, and we want to build a more just future. And in order to do that, we really have to come together and do all the work that is necessary, hold the constitution really, really hard in our hands and in our minds and whatever, and work for what we want to change or we want to improve. And even with the referendum the Same day, on the 8th and 9th of June, there will be the voting also for other 4, 4 changes of law which regard labor law in Italy. And that is basically those referendums were promoted by tgla, which is the biggest syndicate, Labor Syndicate, one of the biggest here in Italy. And you think, how can they be your allies? Of course they are our allies. Because within TGL you have a lot of migrant people working there, people without citizenship. And the first Workers who are discriminated against are workers who don't have Italian citizenship, because in order to hold their documents, their permesso di soggiorno, their residency permit, they accept any condition of work because they cannot basically not accept, because if they don't work, they don't get their documents renewed. You see, there's a lot of common aspects that unite us. And even if there is not, there is this biggest fear of a return to the past, which was not even that long ago.
- [37:21]
B
During the campaign, have you been traveling all over the country?
- [37:26]
A
Yes, I have.
- [37:27]
B
And outside your own city, which, as we said, is pretty welcoming and liberal, what was the reaction that you found in the less welcoming parts of Italy to the campaign, to you personally?
- [37:47]
A
I feel like wherever I've gone has been places where people who are in what I call our bubble, you know, so still the reactions have been positive, unfortunately, like, for me, it's unfortunate I've not encountered any people who have been really against this law, because that would have been really interesting to debate and, you know, exchange views. I would have really loved that. I'm still waiting for someone to come and say, no, I'm not. Like, okay, some people have come and they've said, like, they've questioned, how can you be Italian if you're not born here? Or how can you be Italian if you don't have any links to Italy? Like blood, you know, blood links. Okay. But still, this have been people who have. I've been able to talk with and discuss with. So I think that's very positive. And I think, like, for me, that's a success. Like, even when somebody doesn't agree with you 100%, but then you make them reflect at least on some of the aspects of this law. And they say, oh, okay, actually, you're right about that. It's not okay that you have to line up at the immigration office from 5am in the morning when you're a child for your documents. Okay, I see that it's not okay for you not to be able to go to your school trip because you need a visa, even though you're born here. Okay, I see what you mean when you. When you say you don't have citizenship so you cannot apply for public jobs. So whenever you tell people what this actually means for daily life, they start to understand. And that's. I don't know, for me, that's very. It's amazing, actually.
- [39:46]
B
And. And as a sort of corollary to that, your campaigning, was that done in small groups? Were you meeting small Groups were you doing? Big groups, big crowd, big crowds or fairly large crowds? How were you publicizing? How were you doing that? Apart from online publicizing and things like that? How were you doing it in person?
- [40:09]
A
It's every like a thousand different kinds of events. We've had smaller groups, we've had bigger groups. We've gone to the Labor Day concert in Rome to invite artists, singers to. To support us. We've gone with. Just yesterday I did this book presentation with a small crowd. And afterwards there was the final of the Coppa Italia, the Italy Cup. So we were projecting the match between Bologna and Milan. Bologna won and I talked about referendum during the football bats. And afterwards people were really happy that Bologna. So I was giving out like leaflets and you know, about the referendum. So we always. We do also these. We go to schools, we go to workplaces, especially with the syndicate. Just after we finish our. Our chat, I'm going to the city center of Bologna where we'll have this big event about the five referendums and in a public square where we'll have people talk about the referendums and explain to everybody that is there. So, you know, big crowds, small crowds, it doesn't matter. Any type of events, any type of places, because I repeat, we're being basically rendered invisible by the government and by the media. So we have to utilize every space possible to let people know that there is this possibility that they can vote to actually change, directly, change a lot. Because when the referendum passes, it means from 10 June onwards, people who come to Italy after five years, they can apply for citizenship. And it means that from 10 June, potentially 2 million and a half people can become Italian citizens, can apply and then wait, of course, those three to five to four years. But that's a huge change.
- [42:22]
B
One last question. What are your plans for your own future?
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A
Okay. Apart from parting really hard after we.
- [42:33]
B
Win, Apart from partying really hard when you win really hard.
- [42:40]
A
Okay. Actually I'm doing a master's, another master's, one year master in Human Rights Studies in the US Actually I'm going. I've been accepted to Columbia University. I still have to process that. But yeah, I'm continuing my studies because my study area especially is in migrant and refugee education and its links to basically how society is built, you know, because I think schools are the basis, like the strong roots of society. So I really want to study a little bit more about that, do some more research. Of course I will continue my work with De la Parte Jusa, de la Storya we have a lot of events going on, even about the right to vote, because we organize symbolic elections for residents without Italian citizenship here in Bologna. We want to do that all over Italy in the next years. So it's a mixture of studying, working, activism. I mean, that's what my future looks like.
- [43:51]
B
Wonderful. Thank you very, very much. It's been lovely talking to you. I really enjoyed it very much. And I wish you all the best and all good luck for the referendum. And so if I get a message from you that you're partying really, really hard, I'll know that you've won. Thank you.
- [44:08]
A
Thank you. Thank you, Stephen. It's been great for me, too. Thank you.
- [44:12]
B
Just to remind you that the referendum calls for a change in the Italian law to reduce the time that foreign residents have to wait before they can apply for citizenship from the current 10 years to 5. It's to be held over two days on the 8th and 9th of June. So this has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey, and I'm Stephen Barton.