← Migrant Odyssey
Migrant Odyssey
"Our existence as Palestinians challenges a whole universe that supports the occupation"
00:45:13
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey. Stories of and about migrants of all kinds, people seeking a better life, people fleeing an unbearable one. All, I suspect, wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries. You know, there's something that I realized a whole bunch of my guests have in common. While they may have come out of really difficult circumstances, and they certainly have ambition and talent to push through that, they don't. Most of them just focus on getting ahead. They get involved in so much else. One young world leaders, global shapers. There are people who found and run projects that help others in need. And they don't just give this stuff token time and attention, they really work at it. My guest today is no exception. She's the founder of Kayani, a foundation supporting Palestinian women and girls. She's a social worker, she's a one young world ambassador, a well known conference speaker and, and currently finishing off her master's program in social work in Sweden, from where she spoke to me. Manal. Hi, welcome. Thank you for being here. I think the first question I'd like to ask you is when you look back on your childhood, what's the first event you remember?
- [01:47]
B
I think the most stark scene in my mind right now is me standing on the rooftop of my old house and looking at the sea. I've mentioned that in many interviews before, but this is really something that I can't forget. Like me as a young, young child standing and leaning my head on the wall of the balcony and just looking between like we had. Because you know, in the camp they there are over. Lapped or yeah overlapped buildings and houses. And then you can see the sea in a very, from a very like small tiny scene between the buildings because we had some skyscraper scrapers around us. So yeah, I was looking at the sea and I was always asking myself as a child, will I get out of scamp, Will I grow up and be something? So I think this is the thing that's. That is stuck in my mind right now.
- [02:54]
A
And as a child, were you thinking at the time, will I ever get out and reach that sea, whatever, Whether it's a physical sea or metaphorical sea or was there also delight in seeing the sea, surprise in seeing the sea? Was there that as well?
- [03:14]
B
I think because the sea was a reflection of peace and serenity and you know, from the perspective of a camp and you're living in chaos. So maybe the thing that I wanted more is just to reach the peacefulness in life and maybe that was accompanied with my dreams, like being something, achieving things, but also Living in peace. So that was the. The goal. Yeah.
- [03:42]
A
Okay, now we can. Now we can do the conventional stuff. You were. You were born and brought up in a camp in Lebanon, correct?
- [03:53]
B
Yeah.
- [03:54]
A
So your parents, were they born and brought up there as well?
- [04:00]
B
My father, what, had a very harsh childhood. He lived through many wars, and he was moving between multiple camps and. And he skipped school multiple times. Also he was sick all the time, but he always wanted to get educated. But he spent most of his life in the camp between many camps. But my mom was living in a camp, but then she moved out of the camp at the. After that. So. Yeah, they both were born and raised in camps, but my dad's perspective was bit of, like, unstable between the camps. And my mom was like, just in one place. Yeah.
- [04:52]
A
And so why. I'd love to hear something of your parents as well. Why. Why was your father's life so unstable? Why did. Why was he moving? Probably a stupid question, but why was he moving between camps?
- [05:10]
B
I guess because first his family was not economically stable, so that affected them in a way and geographically, and he had to, you know, support his siblings and mother, pay for education, and also the fact that Lebanon passed through so many wars, especially with the Israeli occupation, so he witnessed a lot of political uncertainties, so he had to, you know, move back and forth to many places. Yeah.
- [05:55]
A
And his parents, were they. Were they born in Palestine?
- [06:00]
B
Yes, my dad's parents were born in Palestine, but my mom's parents know they were born in Lebanon.
- [06:09]
A
And did you. Did you meet your dad's parents?
- [06:12]
B
No, never. I just saw them. I saw my grandpa on the photos, but I lived with my grandma from my dad's side. My. With her couple of years left for her life. So I was, so I was a child when I was, you know, spending time with her. And actually now I feel that I regret that I don't have a lot of time with her because if I go back, I could have changed so many things and maybe lived with her more because she always used to tell me stories about Palestine and her life there. And she left after her death a hairbrush. But the hairbrush was for the horse. She used to brush the horse hair in Palestine. So I feel now that I wish I can connect to her more and listen more to story because, like, when you're a child, you don't care that much to what they say, but now you feel, like, the impact of it. So, yeah, when you recall back on.
- [07:27]
A
What they say, and of course, the child is. It's the universal Thing is that the child doesn't know, doesn't know what it means. But of course you can now connect in different ways with it, don't you? You connect in completely different ways.
- [07:44]
B
So.
- [07:47]
A
What was it like, if I may ask, being the daughter of a father who his life had been so disrupted. So yeah, completely disrupted. What was that like for you?
- [08:07]
B
It's very hard. I wouldn't say it's easy because I think my dad is someone who is very resilient. But he did not get the chance to process his emotions, especially the ones from childhood. And as someone who got in depth in exploring, you know, psychology and personality things. So now I can, I, I, I see what he goes through and I see the reflection of his actions because of this childhood. I don't think he would connect so much if I explained to him because my interpretations would be much different from he perceived things. But that definitely affected us as a family. Now as I said, he always wanted us to leave because we're all we're going to be, we're going to remain refugees in Lebanon. But now he wants us to come back, you know, and stay with him. And also this is a kind of instability like because we are we from childhood the go always to plan for a stable life. And now like he's like come back and he's doing everything to reunite us. So I think he has this kind of instability mindset. It's not a bad thing, but also it's, it's, it's a thing that has to be fixed. So. Yeah.
- [09:41]
A
So how many siblings did you have? Tell me something about your family and just give me, give us an insight stories from your growing up in your, in, in the camp. What was it like in the camp? How many siblings? What's, you know, you said you spent your early time living with your, your, your grandmother. Why was that? So all that, just all that in your entire life in a few seconds?
- [10:08]
B
Yeah. So we lived in Marilyas camp, which is the smallest refugee camp in Lebanon.
- [10:18]
A
And our house, where is that? Is that fast? Is that south? Is that, where is that?
- [10:23]
B
It's in the center of the capital city.
- [10:26]
A
Okay.
- [10:27]
B
Yeah. And our house was a big house. Actually it was two blocks. We had two blocks of the house. So my grandma used to live in the, in the second floor because it was three floor building and she lived in the second floor. We used to go down all the time to serve her the food, live with her, check on her. My dad used to stay with her from time to time because she needed Someone to sleep in the same house. And we lived on the third floor and we had a rooftop, so it was a big house. And I have four siblings, two sisters and two brothers. And I come in the middle. I feel my childhood with my siblings was very close to my sisters and very detached from my. My brother's life. So we used to fight all the time. And you know, because we were young, similar age, also living in a camp, small area. So, you know, when children are located in a crowded place, they fight most of the time, but in terms of arguing, I mean, not physical fight. So my. My childhood was so close to my sisters. And yeah, it got better. When we grow up, our relationship got very intimate, even from with my brother. I think when we all scattered over Europe, all over Europe, we. We felt that we have to connect more. So we really appreciate that. And we always thank mostly our mom because she's very tender person and she always makes sure that we have to connect all the time and ask about each other. So my dad is a very instrumental person and in terms of. He doesn't look after emotions, but he looks after what we achieved, what are we doing now, these things. So we have these two types of parenting styles, but my mom, I think, was the person behind, mostly behind, like unifying us because we had to ask about each other most of the time. So, yeah, that's in brief. My relationship with my siblings.
- [13:02]
A
And your. When you say that you're. They're scattered all over Europe. Have. Have all the. All the siblings now left? All the siblings outside Lebanon? Is that what's happening?
- [13:14]
B
Yes, except one of them, which is the youngest brother, he. Because he's in school now in Lebanon. So. But we plan to, you know, support him in university. So. And we believe there is no future in education for refugees in Lebanon. So we plan to support him in the education year and journey abroad. So. Yeah.
- [13:39]
A
So the camp was right in the center of Beirut. Right. And how is it defined as a camp in that center of. My mind's trying to get around this. In the center of a capital city, there is a camp. How does that.
- [13:56]
B
Yeah, when. When I say I lived in a camp, people thinks. People think that I live in. I lived in a tent.
- [14:03]
A
Yes, I know.
- [14:04]
B
Like, no, guys, you have to chill. It's not 10. We're not camping.
- [14:08]
A
No, no. You're not camping? No.
- [14:10]
B
So yeah, it's like. And it's not a type of slums. So also we should not think about it like that. It's overcrowded buildings that were Built in in an informal way and not in an urban oriented way. You know, it's legal. And to get in and out, there are no restrictions. There are informal exits and entries. So it's like having a wide path that leads you out. And it had around five to six exits from different sides. Some other camps actually have walls and have checkpoints and very critical to get in and out. And you have to show your ID and you have to have specific id, but that was not applicable to the camp we lived in because it was so small, very peaceful. So.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah, right. So where and how were you educated? When we were talking a few days ago, you, you mentioned to me you went to a, to a school outside the camp, right? Is that so? Tell me about that. And what was it like in terms of the quality of education, but also what was it like when, with, with your fellow pupils, you know, Lebanese pupils. Was. Was there any form of discrimination? Was, did you feel, how did you feel? More than any, More than anything else.
- [15:46]
B
Yeah, so I spent, I spent a good time in a private school that was not that far from my camp. I used to go with a bus, school bus that used to take me and return me to the camp with my siblings. And yeah, not everyone in the camp was able to access these schools because parents had to pay for them. So. But yeah, it was a Lebanese school and it was Muslim school, so we were mostly Muslims. This is the kind of education in Lebanon. We don't have secular schools. It's mostly religious, so Christians have schools, Muslims, etc. And I don't think there were. We experienced racism that much in schools because there were a lot of Palestinians also. But also, yeah, some, sometimes my sister, she used to recall on some racist experiences. For example, one time her teacher said that you, the Palestinians have sold your land, so that's why you don't want to return back. So as a child hearing that, you always question what is she saying? And yeah, so we did not know that that was racist, but now we know, of course, when we grow up. But then I had to move to a UN school, which is an honorable school, as I mentioned before. And that was for the purpose of securing a scholarship in the university, a university scholarship. So I moved in grade 11. And that was the, I think the turning point for me because it was an extreme educational system that I always advocate for, you know, changing and rebelling against. There was a lot of discrimination against Palestinian students in Lebanon. There are no.
- [18:01]
A
At this school, sorry, at this UN school, there was a lot of.
- [18:05]
B
Yeah, as I mentioned before, this school was located in a very politically critical area between multiple Lebanese and non Lebanese political groups. So whenever they clash, we, we are, we were always centered in the middle, so we were not allowed to go to any school trips. Also we did not have that much visitors coming to schools. And whenever we have visitors we had to, you know, change the whole system, like hang things on the wall just to prove that the education was the greatest. So we used to do more activities on the day of when the visitor, visitors used to come. We had UN representatives coming to school. And on these specific days it was like definitely different way of education because we had to look that, oh, we are doing great with the, with the money we're getting from the UN so they can, you know, fund the education more and more. And I'm not never ashamed of talking about that because that's, something has to change and still goes on until today. That was.
- [19:25]
A
Sorry, give me some more about that. That's, that's, that's important and very interesting. So basically you have a UN funded school, right? It's, it's, and it calls itself the un, a UN school. Correct? It's, it's, it's under the name of the un. It is then staffed, I assume by local, with local Lebanese teachers and administrators, correct? Is that right?
- [19:51]
B
Mostly Palestinians actually.
- [19:54]
A
Oh, it's staffed by Palestinians. Okay. And then you said then basically so that the system of education, would that have been the Lebanese system curriculum or that would have been an international curriculum? What would it have been? That's number one, Lebanese. Okay, and why did you feel. Because this is clearly it, it affected you quite, quite dramatically. Why did you feel that it was a system that needed rebelling against? Because it was such an extreme. What was extreme about it?
- [20:29]
B
So there were a lot of fights inside the school during the, in the playground when we had a break. And some students used to use some items while fighting. So also when a student fights with a teacher, the system always says that the right is with the student, not the teacher. So I remember one time a guy, he stabbed a teacher's hand with a scissor and he was not held accountable, the student. So that was scary because it's like a jungle, you know, and reinforcing this, what do you call it, the anger and aggressiveness in the students. And that was, I think, something that someone wanted to reinforce in us as refugees. So also I had friends who experienced a lot of violence within the camps they lived in and their families. So they used to skip a lot of classes but the school system was like, okay, come to school and be in the school whether you attend the classes or not. But just. It's better than like staying on the street. So whether you skip school or not, you are always welcome to come back. Yeah. So. And, and there was a lot of hopelessness among students. A. They were, they were so smart and they are until now. But since they are not exposed to the external world in Lebanon, there are. They don't have connection with the, with anything. They feel that there's no need to, you know, sometimes study or dream or whatever. And you can have two types of students who are very persistent and they want to reach something in their life. And some people are extremely hopeless. And the fact that you are not allowed to work in many fields in around 73 fields in Lebanon. So they always have this narrative of okay, why would you work so hard and become an engineer if you're not allowed? You will end up opening a bakery store in the camp. Or they will always refer back to this thing like yeah, see all the engineers or the doctors, they are sitting in groups on the exits and entries of the camp. Like they don't have jobs. So there is no need to, you know, re. Stress a lot on the, on the education.
- [23:29]
A
And that's a sort of recurring theme, isn't it? Amongst, amongst all refugees as well. You get. We get people coming into Europe from, From wherever, from Palestine, from Syria, from. From Africa from where they're not allowed to. To work or practice their profession. So you know, they end up opening up the. Working in the local grocery store, you know, or whatever when they've got these huge skills that are just never used. Yeah, it's. So you went to university in Lebanon at the start, is that right? Because I assume, I assume you were a very good student at school as well as university, is that right?
- [24:17]
B
No, I was really bad at school. Like my sisters were extremely smart and they were always getting rewards in school and like you know how you. They have these morning speeches before you go to class. Yes, I was like the bad person and. But then what stroke me and made this shift is that I had anorexia when I was in grade nine. So I feared to fail. I don't know, I had this thing. I always feared that I will repeat this grade, Grade nine. So the school told me not to come to school anymore. Just for one year to rest. But I always. So that I. I started studying so much. Waking up at 5am and studying everything, going to school, doing the exams, even when I'm Sick. And then I, I wanted to get, you know, we have. Because we have grades like excellent, good, very good and fair.
- [25:21]
A
Yeah.
- [25:22]
B
In the official test. So I wanted to get the good or very good one because my, my sisters always got the excellent. So they inspired me a lot, actually. It was not like a negative competition between us. They inspired me a lot. And then I became a smart person. I used to teach students how to cheat. I had the really good tactics. And that's why I have a problem with my eyes now because I used to write, you know, small letters and.
- [25:56]
A
I love it.
- [25:57]
B
Yeah. Happy how it turned.
- [26:01]
A
So it's interesting because I was going to ask you, you know this. So you had anorexia when you were. How old were you?
- [26:08]
B
I was in grade nine. So I am probably 14.
- [26:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah. But then you linked it to, you know, you just did not want to fail. Right. And was that something. You know, we, we talk about people whose, whose parents and grandparents have gone through great suffering and great campaign sometimes gone through great suffering who, who feel that they owe them something. They owe them to strive. They owe them to, to. To do more than what they are almost become superhuman. Is that something that you have? It's this knowing, you know the, the cliche is knowing that you were on the shoulders of giants.
- [26:59]
B
Yes, I had that a lot. And it's not because of my parents. It's because of the culture we live in. You know, the system in the country does not support you as a person on all levels. So they don't support in financial D or health wise, medically or whatever. So you have to always work hard to pay yourself. And finding a job is very important to be able to sustain in life. Otherwise you will go through really hard economic stage or crisis. So. Yeah. And I think my parents wanted us to study and work and have families. They always insist of getting married, all of us and have families. So that was the goal just to. Because also in Lebanon you have this stigma of if you fail, that's not something good. You are. They label you and it's sometimes really hard emotionally and psychologically for a child to repeat the same grade. So I always feared that especially that I was a sister of really smart siblings. Yeah, I didn't want to get that label as well.
- [28:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. So you went to just. Just to sort of tie up those, those ends. You went to university to do a undergraduate degree in Lebanon and you graduated there, is that right?
- [28:38]
B
Yeah, I got two scholarships, one in, in Cyprus and one in Lebanon. So my parents chose to. That I. I study in Lebanon. I got this scholarship, but also back then I did not know what to study. So I. My first major was literature review. Literature, English literature. So. And everyone was choosing on the behalf of me what to study. They were like, oh, do business or do that. Because, you know, I studied. What do you call sociology and economics, because you have two sectors and before you go to university at school, so you either end up studying sociology and economics or you go into science. And yeah, so my sisters were in the science part and I was like, of course on the other part, the fields in the university were so limited, so English literature was the first thing I was just choosing. But I was emotionally drained because that's something that did not reflect me and what I wanted. So. But after. And my GPA was so low on the first, during the first semester. But then I switched to social work. And it's because also I, at the age of 18, I started volunteering a lot. So I was like, social work is close to community service, so that would suit me. So that's how I ended up studying social work. Yeah.
- [30:12]
A
Okay. And then you left Lebanon when.
- [30:17]
B
I graduated in 2019. And then I went to the United States for a while and came back, worked for two, three years and then I left to Europe after that.
- [30:32]
A
And you went, is that right? Did you go to Spain first? Is that correct? University in Spain, is that correct?
- [30:39]
B
No, to Portugal.
- [30:40]
A
To Portugal. To court. Forgive me, you know, the. My memory goes with the age, really. So you went to Portugal, to university there. And just tell me briefly something about that and then we will. But then we will stop the linear biographical. Then I'll ask you all sorts of other questions.
- [31:00]
B
So yeah, I struggled to reach Europe. It was not an easy journey because Palestinians are not recognized by many European countries and Portugal is one of them. So it took me a long time to get my visa to. But I got supported by journalists and my friends who were in the master's program. They made a petition, they spoke to the parliament, and then I ended up getting a short term visa, 90 days. And then I traveled. Yeah, and then I went to my second semester, which is. Which was in Norway, and then I moved to Sweden at the end.
- [31:43]
A
So at least as you're going along, you're getting.
- [31:45]
B
And the instability continues because, you know, now I have a bag, travel bag that. That is literally churned that I have to change. It lived with me for a while. So.
- [32:00]
A
And you and your postgrad, your master's is in. What is in. Is in social work or yeah, Social.
- [32:06]
B
Work with families and children.
- [32:08]
A
Okay. I've always, you know, I was brought up, I suppose, in my time thinking and knowing that Palestinians are the. Some of the most educated, highly skilled people coming out of the Middle east and of course, in the Diaspora in some very highly skilled positions and jobs. So, you know, I've always seen them as extremely capable people. I'm always surprised when the Palestinians, many Palestinians that I meet worry that they're not as highly regarded as. Certainly I learned to. When you think of yourself as a Palestinian, what does that make you feel? Knowing that there are influences clearly in the world that say, you're stateless, I don't recognize you, you came out of a camp, et cetera. Tell me what that makes you feel when you think of yourself as a Palestinian.
- [33:19]
B
Yeah, it comes with a huge feeling of pride. I feel that I'm a very, very, very unique person because of being Palestinian, because our existence challenges a lot of people, a lot, a lot of politics, politicians and groups. It's not about eliminating other people. But I'm saying our existence is a proof of a lot of things from the history, language, food, culture, whatever. So I feel so proud of being Palestinian and I don't think I would ever be something else. But it also comes with a huge pain because it has a price to be a Palestinian, and the price is not easy, as you think at all. Like, you have to sacrifice a lot of things related to having a nationality, voting, owning a house, owning things. So. Yeah. And, you know, when you move to Europe or out of the Middle east, you challenge a whole universe of. That has a lot of support to the occupation. I'm not saying the entire world, but there are a lot of countries and cultures that still disregard the history of Palestinians. So you have to stand alone and, you know, always prove that you're right. It's a matter of ignorance because it's so easy to see the reality. We don't have to paint anything. Our reality is so obvious and it's very clear. And the fact that I had a lot of European friends coming to Lebanon with a really different mindset about the reality of Palestinians. By me taking them to the camps and just telling them, I respect who you are, but it's just speak to the people. When they saw and spoke to the people and they experienced what people have experienced, they changed their mind. So I think there is a lot of ignorance. And because some people don't want to read, don't want to change, and they just stick to one source of information, they don't want to read or debate. And yeah, that's one thing. And I think the media plays a big role of what they see, you know, because some, A lot. I spoke to a lot of people from different countries and they said, I don't want to bother myself by looking at the reality of other people and in the other part of the world. And I found that very cruel because for me, it's very interesting to see what's happening in Congo, Sudan, Central America, whatever. I mean, it's a universal humanity, you know, And I'm never, never shocked about what's happening because, you know, when I lived in Norway and I was studying, I was living in two realities. I had German friends, I had Norwegian friends and French and whatever. We lived together. And when there was some wars going on in Gaza and strikes, even during the holy month of Ramadan, I was crying all the time in my room and trying to. You know, when I. They ask me what's happening and I tell them about this reality, they never connect to what I say because I'm introduced to the reality from valuable resources, live streams and live resources. But the kind of media they see is totally different. So we are. We were never on the same page of understanding this reality. So I was not shocked, but also, it was a huge pain.
- [37:23]
A
Moving on to something completely different. Tell me something about what do you do for joy? What do you do to enjoy yourself? Do you. Do you like. Do you like eating? Do you like listening to music? Do you like. Do you like making music? Do you like. Tell me what you. What gives you joy?
- [37:42]
B
I think I have really huge energy that I always try to embrace and that goes. Comes out when I do outdoor activities. So when I run, when I swim, when I ride a bicycle, when I do things that, you know, keep me going fast. And so that infuses my energy. I. I like to do that. I never like to sit and be in close enclosed area. So I feel so bored. Even I'm not a friend of board cards and board games at all. I hate that. So, yeah, I always stick to outdoor activities.
- [38:27]
A
And are you ever silly?
- [38:30]
B
All the time. Yeah.
- [38:32]
A
Really?
- [38:32]
B
Oh, my God. If so, when people see me, they don't know the other part of me, the other face of me. I'm a very, very funny person that you cannot expect that I'm that person. But I only embrace it with those who match my energy or those who can handle it, because I just came to a conclusion that not everyone handles certain types of energy. So.
- [39:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And then Just, just finally to close off, you, you. You run, you run a foundation in, in, in the camps. Tell me, tell us something about that because that's, that's also some really valuable work there.
- [39:16]
B
Yeah, it's a small initiative sort of organization. We try to run projects inside the camp that based. We also encourage the inclusiveness of men and young boys, but the main focus is on women. We do through, sorry, women.
- [39:41]
A
And what in particular? Why, what does that mean, women?
- [39:48]
B
It means that young girls, females who live in economically restricted families or in communities that have violence. So like, I just. When I think about it, I just think about women who need support in general. So since I studied abroad my whole life, I was exposed to many welfare systems and many municipalities and NGOs and programs and conferences. So I try to bring everything that I learned to the camp in any way I can. So that's what I do. It's very diverse. We, for example, we made the first mental health case management project. We worked on child protection, on referral of cases. Now we work on media and capacity building in relation to peace and security work. We worked on rehabilitation of ex prisoners. We did a lot of things and we are doing still, but I think we still need people from the camp like me, the young girls, because they, they are the ones who will grow up and they have to give back to the camp. So I try to, you know, promote that through my, my initiative just to support those who are in need, but also ensure that they continue providing support after me and them. And. Yeah.
- [41:32]
A
And do you find a. Is there a lot of passion amongst women and young girls to take on the role, to carry it forward? And do you also have resistance, backlash from, from more traditional.
- [41:50]
B
Yeah, there is a lot of resistance because we, we never thought about leaving the camp. It's part of our identity, whether we are rich or poor. It's. It's that something that brought us to Lebanon and we cannot leave it until we are free. And so that's why we. And there is a big community of people that need us. So we cannot just turn our back and leave, even if we travel. And I think now, since we live in the capital city as well, we got so many nos that wanted to support the camp. So they are now open to collaborations and stuff like that. So I don't think there is a resistance, but to certain topics, of course. For example, any project related to feminist work or even challenging the religious concepts, that's a huge issue in the camp. So on the International Women's Day, we had a Lot of backlashes from religious groups in the camp, and a lot of work that was related to women empowerment was posed and stopped just because we are working on women empowerment. So. And that's something that always keeps us going and, you know, insisting to provide support. It's not a trendy thing, just like you. Oh, woman empowerment. And I understand that defying the voices, it's. It's a. It's a real problem that we have that we have to continue to work on.
- [43:33]
A
And you say you're bringing the men and young. Young. Young men, Boys, men in as well, to try and as part of the program. Is that right?
- [43:41]
B
Yes.
- [43:42]
A
And how do you. How do you do that and why?
- [43:45]
B
Because a lot of NGOs think that fighting, you know, sexism by just focusing on women. But we have to start from the families, from the young people. We have to change a lot of ideologies, even among young boys and men, not to bring them to our side, but just to make sure that they get the right education about how to respect women, how to treat them, how to be part of a family, a healthy family system. And, you know, you do your role as a father and a mother or whatever, as a parent. So. And at the same time, men do want to, you know, they are open to learn and have these discussions. So we don't want to fight sexism with sexism, you know, so we. We truly believe that we have to have equal opportunities for everyone. Yeah.
- [44:43]
A
Okay. Manal, thank you very, very much. Thank you. Lovely to see you. And we will talk soon, I hope. My guest today was Manal Makili. This has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey, and I'm Stephen Barton.