Rowan from the West Bank: "I lost my sense of fear - and that's scary."

Summary

Podcast Summary: Migrant Odyssey — Rowan from the West Bank

Episode Title: "I lost my sense of fear - and that's scary."
Host: Stephen Barden
Guest: Rowan, entrepreneur and engineer from Ramallah, West Bank
Release Date: March 31, 2024

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Overview

This compelling episode of Migrant Odyssey brings listeners a raw, deeply personal conversation with Rowan, a Palestinian businesswoman and engineer living in Ramallah, West Bank. Against a backdrop of ongoing conflict—including live gunfire outside her window—Rowan discusses life under occupation, the emotional burden of survivor's guilt, generational trauma, and her journey as an entrepreneur determined to build something transformative for her community. The episode weaves together grief, resilience, spiritual reflection, and surprising warmth—showcasing the unbreakable spirit of Palestinians.

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1. Life During Conflict and Survivor’s Guilt

• Opening Reflections on Fasting and Ramadan

  • Rowan expresses the spiritual and emotional depth that Ramadan holds for her, especially in light of starvation in Gaza.
  • Quote: “Whenever I fast, I do remember them...I’m grateful for the food that I have...this Ramadan is special because with everything that is going on with Gaza, with the starvation...” (01:51)

• Survivor’s Guilt in the West Bank

  • Rowan describes an acute sense of survivor’s guilt felt across her community. She emphasizes the randomness of birthplace and the closeness—biologically and emotionally—between Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
  • Quote: “We don’t choose where we are born...I was just lucky to be born in West Bank. Someone was born in Gaza. They can be way better than me, they can be more ambitious, and yet they’re born in a place where they just get bombed for no reason.” (03:30)
  • She explains the inability to enjoy basic comforts knowing that people nearby are suffering, but frames these heavy emotions as confirmation of her ongoing humanity.
  • “If having a survivor guilt makes me a human, I’m fine...I’m happy that I am still human. And in 2024.” (05:59)

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2. Firsthand and Filtered News, Experiences of Trauma

• Personal Connections & Checking In

  • Rowan’s contact with friends in Gaza reduces to “Are you alive?” messages, waiting anxiously for WhatsApp check marks. Communication is scarce and precious.
  • She shares a harrowing story about her Canadian-Palestinian friend trapped in Gaza and the emotional aftermath of their phone call.
  • Quote: “My routine...is just sending them a text saying, are you alive? And you would see like a check on WhatsApp or two checks. If it’s one, that means bad news, two checks, that means they’re still alive.” (07:02)

• Refugees in Egypt and Palestinian Compassion

  • After meeting Gaza escapees in Egypt, Rowan describes their extraordinary sense of hospitality—despite losing everything, they displayed compassion and generosity.
  • Quote: “How can you give as someone who managed to leave Gaza, after all you have seen, after all you have suffered, yet you have so much love and care to give.” (09:44)

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3. The Normalization and Consequences of Danger

• Gunshots as Background Noise

  • During the recording, settlers’ gunshots are heard outside. Rowan explains curfews, the presence of settlers, and the omnipresence of settlements.
  • Quote: “Sorry, this is like...I don’t know if you could hear the gunshot, but this is completely normal. Don’t worry.” (14:47)

• Losing Fear as a Coping Mechanism

  • Rowan reflects on growing up under military occupation and how normalization of violence has blunted her sense of fear.
  • Quote: “If I seen a gunshot, I would not blink...That makes sense. I lost my sense of fear. And that is scary thing to lose your sense of fear. Because if you lose your sense of fear, you’re putting yourself in danger.” (16:25)
  • She notes this is common among Palestinians—trauma leads to fearlessness, which paradoxically can put lives at risk.

• Continuous Trauma and Professional Help

  • Rowan argues that professional mental health support often falls short because Palestinian trauma is continuous, not a single event to recover from.
  • Quote: “Even if you try to help us with our trauma, it’s not going anywhere. Like, I’m going to have another trauma the next day.” (22:50)
  • She details an incident at a checkpoint (19:45-23:50), where her lack of fear unsettled an armed soldier, underscoring how trauma alters behavior.

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4. Generational Trauma & Cultural Memory

• Transmitted Wounds
  • Both Rowan and Stephen discuss trauma passed through generations—among Palestinians and Israelis alike.
  • Rowan reflects on her grandparents’ suffering and early deaths from stress and sorrow, and how the next generation tends to shield their children from retelling the past, resulting in lingering, unspoken pain.
  • Quote: “They looked old...they have seen so much pain...All they talk about is that we need to move on. We need to be good people and we need to let the people know that Palestinians exist.” (26:20, 28:25)
  • She urges the importance of acknowledgment, even as the community valorizes moving forward.

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5. Childhood Joy & Family Life in the West Bank

• Small Joys Amidst Turmoil

  • Rowan recalls the joys of her childhood: singing with her mother, tight hugs from her father, moments of independence, and the warmth of a large family.
  • Quote: “The first thing that did come up to my mind is the joy...my mom sitting on the ground and holding my hand and teaching me how to sing.” (30:32)
  • She describes naming her youngest brother and the normalization her parents sought for their children.

• Staying Palestinian

  • Despite the exodus of some relatives, Rowan’s immediate family stays in Ramallah, with a strong attachment to identity and place:
    • “The decision of us leaving or staying has been made for us specifically 76 years ago. So we’re not changing that.” (32:44)

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6. Education, Diversity & Early Career

• Religious Diversity in Palestine

  • Rowan attended a Christian school as a Muslim—a testament to the diversity and coexistence historically present in Palestine.
  • Quote: “Palestinians are very, very diverse. We’re Muslims, we’re Christians and we’re Jews as well...it is not a conflict of religion.” (33:33)

• Transition into Engineering and Tech

  • She studied mechatronics engineering—a new, multidisciplinary field. Finding local opportunities limited, she pivoted from engineering to tech despite having to compete with computer science graduates.

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7. Entrepreneurship: From Amal to Trace

• Creating Amal: Matching Laborers with Contractors

  • Rowan’s first startup, Amal (meaning “hope”), matched construction workers with jobs—a vital need in the West Bank due to unemployment, skewed economies, and the occupation’s limitations.
  • Innovative Validation: Used Google Forms as an MVP; soon had 3,000 workers earning $300,000 in jobs, prioritizing social impact over profit.

• Research, Pivot, and “Falling in Love with the Problem”

  • COVID-19 forced a re-evaluation; an Expo 2020 grant enabled further development and data-driven analysis for the Palestinian Ministry of Labor.
  • As Amal’s model was specifically tailored for Palestine, they chose to “put ego aside,” close it, and engage in extensive customer discovery in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
  • New Venture: Trace, a B2B SaaS platform to improve productivity and data analytics in construction, now operates in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
  • Quote: “For me I love a big problem, I love a complicated problem. If you fall in love with the problem, you want to find a solution for it...You cannot make a product must to have if the problem is not must to have.” (51:04)

• Current Status and Impact of War

  • October 7 and ongoing violence have drastically affected the team and operations—staff size reduced from 14 to 5 due to instability. Despite challenges, the company is generating revenue and aiming for profitability.

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8. Resilience and the Refusal to Hate

• Resilience as a Survival Tool
  • Rowan resists being tokenized as “resilient”—it’s simply a required response for survival and to “not let them change you, not let them make you less human.”
  • Quote: “We don’t want to be blocked by our hatred...You just move on. You keep focusing on being the same exact person. You don’t want them to change you, you don’t want them to make you less human. So you keep giving forward, you keep loving, and you keep moving to prove to yourself...that you are capable.” (54:29)
• Host’s Emotional Response
  • Stephen is repeatedly moved by Rowan’s ability to nurture hope and creativity amid crisis.
  • Quote: “You’ve brought tears to my eyes more than half a dozen times through this entire conversation. I find your joy moving. I find your curiosity moving. And I find your empathy beyond my capacity.” (56:04)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Fasting & Gaza:
  “Whenever I fast, I do remember them...and this Ramadan is special because of that.” (01:51)

• On Survivor’s Guilt:
  “If having a survivor guilt makes me a human, I’m fine...That means I’m still human.” (05:59)

• Checking on Loved Ones in Gaza:
  “My routine...is just sending them a text saying, are you alive?” (07:02)

• Gazan Compassion:
  “…they had more compassion than any person that I have met.” (09:44)

• On Living with Trauma:
  “I lost my sense of fear—and that is scary thing to lose...If you lose your sense of fear, you’re putting yourself in danger.” (16:25)

• Generational Trauma:
  “They looked old...because they have seen so much pain.” (26:20)

• On Palestinian Joy:
  “My mom sitting on the ground and holding my hand and teaching me how to sing.” (30:32)

• On Religious Diversity:
  “Palestinians are very, very diverse...it is not a conflict of religion.” (33:33)

• On Entrepreneurship:
  “...fall in love with the problem and then find the solution for this problem.” (51:04)

• On Resilience:
  “We don’t want to be blocked by our hatred...You keep giving forward, you keep loving, and you keep moving...” (54:29)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:51–03:30 — Ramadan, spirituality, and survivor’s guilt
• 07:02–09:44 — Daily communication with friends in Gaza and their post-escape perspective
• 14:47–16:25 — Gunshots outside; normalization of fearlessness
• 16:25–22:50 — Deep dive into trauma, fearlessness, and anecdote at an Israeli flying checkpoint
• 26:20–29:49 — Generational trauma and family history
• 30:32–33:33 — Childhood memories and family resilience
• 33:33–39:45 — Education and transition into tech
• 45:05–50:58 — Building Amal, pivoting to Trace
• 54:29–56:32 — Reflections on resilience, forward motion, and closing

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Tone

The tone is intimate, candid, reflective, and brave—layered with sorrow but animated by humor, empathy, and an insistent hopefulness. Despite the continuous trauma Rowan faces, she radiates warmth and resilience, resisting the loss of humanity in herself and her people.

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For Listeners: Takeaways

• Human faces behind the headlines: The episode reveals the day-to-day realities and emotional struggles of living under siege, beyond filtered media accounts.
• Empathy and generosity prevail: Despite trauma, Rowan and her community continue to show compassion and hospitality.
• Resilience as a survival strategy: The steadfast refusal to let trauma and oppression erode one’s humanity or purpose.
• Creativity and entrepreneurship: Even in the harshest realities, ambition and innovative spirit drive solutions to local challenges—and, potentially, broader change.

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Recommended for anyone seeking a visceral, human perspective on Palestine, conflict, and the complicated beauty of resilience.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey. Stories of and about migrants of all kinds, people seeking a better life, people fleeing an unbearable one. All, I suspect, wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries. Today's podcast has been one of the richest units have recorded, rich not only in the variety, but in its depth of insight, emotion, humanity, and despite it all, just the sheer joy. My guest today is Rowan, businesswoman, engineer, graduating in mechatronics, but more of that later. Entrepreneur and Palestinian Rowan spoke to me from the west bank in Palestine. And our conversation took literally, in a number of instances, some extraordinary and unexpected turns. Like, for example, her apology that we were being interrupted by gunshots from Israeli settlers roaming the streets outside the house. And her deep understanding of trauma, both in herself, her people, and her Israeli cousins, as she calls them, reminding me that trauma takes different forms. Some result in fearlessness, some in terror. And then there is the hugely intelligent, creative and entrepreneurial Rowan, who talked so enthusiastically about the pretty unique software and business that she had created and is now rolling out in the Middle East. Kabbalism. You were telling me just before we started recording that you love fasting because we are in the early days of Ramadan. Tell me why you love fasting.

[B]

Fasting. Well, I'm a very curious person. So back when I was a little girl, I asked my parents, why do we fast? And they were like, you fast, so you would feel with the poor, with the one who are less privileged than you. So whenever I fast, I do remember them, to be honest. And I'm grateful for the food that I have. I'm grateful for the family, I'm grateful for the house that I live in. Right. And I do remember the people who are less and who just donate as much as you can during Ramadan. You feel connected to God during Ramadan as well. So you pray. I'm a very spiritual person. I would like to consider myself one, but this one is way more special to me because with everything that is going on with Gaza, with a starvation that is happening in, especially in north of Kaza, whenever you fast, you just remember them and you pray for them and you wish that these days can pass. And so, yeah, this Ramadan is special because of that.

[A]

I didn't want to dive straight into Gaza, but I think it's. You brought up a point here because you're in Ramallah, you're in the west bank, and it's very close to. To Gaza. You mentioned earlier on a feeling of sort of survivor's guilt on that is that that must be something that's felt very strongly throughout the community on the West Bank. Is that right?

[B]

Yes, to be honest, because we don't choose where we are born. We are all Palestinians. We have the same exact bloodline that goes through us all. I was just lucky to be born in West Bank. Someone was born in Gaza. They can be way better than me, they can be more ambitious, and yet they're born in a. In a place where they just get bombed for no reason. And you can relate because that could be you. It's not just. It could be you. Like, it's just wrong, just wrong to. To treat someone, to treat a human like this, even if they're not. Even if we're not even related by blood line. Right. But specifically in west bank, because we are related. So it's. It's fascinating, the survivor guilt that we feel there. There's not a lot of food in west bank and they. Sometimes they got the water and the poor, but even when you have water, you don't have the desire to take a quick shower. Even if you have food, you just don't feel like eating it. Right. Because why am I allowed to eat it? And someone I know, someone I love, someone I care for, cannot have it. So survivor guilt is real. Unfortunately, it's not the solution. We know that we need to be healthy, we need to think straight, but yet it is something internal that we cannot really control. It's a human instinct, I would say. And being completely honest, I'm not bothered by it, because if having a survivor guilt makes me a human, I'm fine. Because unfortunately, we live in a world where basic human emotions are being lacked for a lot of people. So feeling guilty is one of them. Feeling sad, angry, frustrated, pissed and grateful as well, and hoping for a better future are all human emotions still. And I'm happy that I'm feeling them. I'm happy that I'm feeling frustrated, I'm happy that I'm feeling angry, and I'm happy that I'm feeling guilty and responsible for what is going on there, because that makes me human. That means I'm still human. And I'm happy that I am still human. And in 2024.

[A]

Yeah, that you are. You certainly are human. They certainly are human. Do you have. Do you have friends? Do you have relatives in Gaza? Do you get firsthand. Because, of course, you know, apart from Al Jazeera, I suppose out here where I am, you know, you get that the news is. Is. Is terribly filtered. I mean, I. I listened, for example, today to the BBC's World at One. And there was a, a very brief mention of Gaza. Do you get direct news of any kind from Gaza?

[B]

Yes, I do. So in the early days in October, one of my best friends from the uni, she got stuck there. She's from west bank, so she got stuck there and that was really scary because that was her first time visiting Gaza and she was super excited to visit Gaza and her, she has been clocked there. She's Canadian as well. She's Plessian Canadian. So she got stuck there for a month and a half and after she left we had a phone call because before she managed to leave we could, could barely talk. I also have a bunch of other close friends who are there and my routine until now is just sending them a text saying, are you alive? And you would see like a chicken on WhatsApp or two checks. If it's one, that means bad news, two checks, that means there is still a lie. So when they are in Gaza, you really don't know much. All you know is that they're alive or they're not alive. Sometimes they reply, sometimes they don't reply. Sometimes you just give them the space to reply whenever they can because they have a very, very busy life right now in Gaza. Some of the family members are responsible of getting the water, some of them are responsible for getting the small cookies. They can survive on that day. Some of them are responsible for charging the phone. So everyone has a task to do and you should not wait and accept that they're going to send you a text. They have other things to take care of. They are in survivor mode and you need to respect that and you just need to wait until they have the time to reply to you. But when my friend managed to leave Gaza and we talked, I really could not speak with anyone for about three days after my conversation with her of the things that she told me. But we can say that when you say Al Jazeera filtered things. Yes, they do, because what is going on in the ground is a hundred times worse than what we see in four countries.

[A]

I didn't actually say Al Jazeera filtered, I said the other media filter. I mean, the BBC certainly filters. Everybody filters. Al Jazeera must filter as well, clearly, really. But at least they give a daily hourly update of what's going on.

[B]

Yeah, literally everyone does. I'm extremely supported from the west media, but like I expected nothing less than them. I, I already know they can be very biased, but I never thought they can be to that point biased. Like how Many Plistinian. How many human need to die for you to do your job and be objective? We don't know. We don't want anything from you. Just be objective. So with my friend, it was extremely hard hearing the conversation from her understanding what she went through, her emotions, that was like crazy to hear. And last week I was in Egypt, so I have seen like, I call them like Holocaust survivors. One of my good friends, he managed to get his family out, 14 people. And I met them last Friday. It was the last Friday before Ramadan. And they invited me to their house and they had like Palestinian food. And they just managed to leave Gaza like a few days ago, like literally two days ago. And they were hosting me and inviting me because they know that I'm by myself in Egypt. And I really did not know what to do or what to say. All I could say is, like, which, like, I'm thankful that you're okay. I'm thankful for your safety. And they were like, oh, don't worry, we're fine. We just watching the news because back when we were in Gaza, we didn't know what was going on. We just see bombs, we just see fires. We would not even know who is being bombed or where. We just had a survivor task. Like, someone will just go to pick the water and other will go and get the food. So I was sitting with them for about three, four hours. They were telling me about their days over there and I was like speechless. And I was like giving them these hopeless looks of like, I'm sorry. All I could say is that I'm so sorry. And they were like, don't worry, we're fine. Like, we're just hope, like, our cousins can be fine, but don't worry. Do you want more Jews? Do you want more food? And at that moment, I realized that the entire world maybe wants us to see Gaza and Palestinians in Gaza as barbaric, as people who deserve to do that. But I have witnessed firsthand that they can't do that. Like, with everything that these people went through, they literally lost everything. And they paid a really high price to leave Gaza to make it to Egypt. And yet they had more compassion than any person that I have met. And they were giving. How can you give as someone who managed to leave Gaza after all you have seen, after all you have suffered, yet you have so much love and care to give. For me, at that moment, I realized how small I am because I always assume that I'm someone who cares about people. I have like empathy up toward people right I'm always told that I am a giver. But what I have seen them is like a different level of being a giver. A different level of someone who is willing to give love and forgive. They had zero grudge or hate toward anyone. And that is fascinating.

[A]

Is that, is that really. They had zero grudge or dislike or resentment or anyone about any. Even, even, even the people who bombed them.

[B]

Well, they weren't happy about it.

[A]

No, I'm sure they weren't.

[B]

Yeah, but they were very clear that go to speak and this is God's plan and we have full trust in God's plan and that's it.

[A]

Do you, do you fear, do you fear that you know, many people, when they come out of war zones and out of traumas and out of suffering, almost the trauma catches up with them later. Do you fear that is going to happen? That they will suddenly they will feel that trauma in cliche terms, the post traumatic stress.

[B]

It will 100% but they would not know it. Let me tell you why I grew up during the second intifada. I have seen my classmates being bombed next to my house. I have seen my mom having a panic attack. I have seen soldier pointing guns at me when I was barely seven. I have seen the important guns at my dad. Right. I have seen people get killed. Me growing up, I was 37 during the second Antifa and I truly believed that I am okay. I'm like. My family protected me. They gave me as much love. I'm such. I'm sorry, this is like. I don't know if you could hear like the gunshot, but this is completely normal. Don't worry. Sorry.

[A]

What was that in the background? I can't hear it.

[B]

Gunshots.

[A]

What was in the background?

[B]

Gunshots.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Yeah. So normally settlers, they would come and walk around areas after 7pm so no one is allowed to leave the house after 7pm we have a curfew. But yeah, as long as there is no one outside, you should be fine. But if you are outside, you might get shot.

[A]

And this is in the middle, is this is in the middle of town. This is in the middle of the city. Is that correct where you are?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but this is completely normal. Like settlers attack, not attack, but they're like. They would walk through town, they would.

[A]

Walk through in the middle of Ramallah. In the middle of the Ramallah. They're walking in and doing this stuff. Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, they can do that. Just a lot of people don't understand. Like settlers are everywhere. Settlements are surrounding west bank, there is no Palestine, no Israel. No, no, no. Like west bank is literally surrounded by settlements. Wherever you look, there is a settlement. And yet more than 3,000 new settlements units have been approved and they will be built around West Bank. So I think a lot of people don't understand how crazy it is. So a satellite can come, can settle in on my own land, and they can live with a job rent free and they can shoot whoever they want whenever they want. So going back to Trump, I grew up believing that I'm okay. But there is a certain characteristic in my personality that I start realizing I am fearless. When I say I am fearless, I'm speaking that if I seen a gunshot, I would not blink. If I see certain things that normally I should be scared of, they don't scare me anymore. That makes sense. I lost my sense of fear. And that is scary thing to lose your sense of fear. Because if you lose your sense of fear, you're putting yourself in danger. And I'm 100% sure that you notice that in the majority of the Palestinians. Like if you look at some videos, you will see a Palestinian being injured and someone else and there's gunshots all over. You'll see another person goes there and try to grab that person to get them in. Funny enough, that person that grabs them in, they already went through trauma in their life to the point that they're not even scared or don't understand that this bullet can't kill them. The way that they look at the bullet is completely different than the way you are being scared of that bullet. Unfortunately, it is being normalized. So I like to say that I do have. I admit that I do have trauma, but I believe that it's not just me. I believe all of the Palestinians have trauma. And getting professional help would not help because it is a continuous trauma. So. And not anyone can understand it. I think the other. At the beginning of November, I heard about a guy who is from Gaza, who was in Belgium, that his entire family was wiped out in Gaza. And he seeked professional help. And when he was speaking with his therapist, he said, I wish you come. I died with them. Or. Or he maybe he said something else right for us. I do understand what he's going through. For the therapist, she did not understand and she did not help him. She just said that this guy is danger for the society. She did not give him the proper help. So unfortunately, not a lot of people can understand exactly what we are going through. Not anyone can help us with our trauma. And even if you Try to help us with our trauma. It's not going anywhere. Like, I'm going to have another trauma the next day. I can tell you another story. 2022, I was in Sweden. My mom called me and she said that my dad's not doing well and I need to come back home as soon as possible. So I did took the first flight back home. I made it to Jordan. So Plesians cannot fly through the airport. We need to go to Jordan. From Jordan, I will go to the borders. From the borders, we cross from Jordan to Palestine. We go through a lot of checkpoints, and it depends on the soldier's mood. If you are allowed in within five minutes or three hours, it depends on your luck. And I managed to cross very easily. And once I made it to Jericho, I realized that the checkpoints to my house were completely closed. So I had to stay at a friend's house for about two days. Then my mom called and she said, listen, checkpoints are open. Just come back home. It took me around 20 minutes to be home. And I could see my house. I could literally see my house. And then a flying checkpoint. Like, flying checkpoint means that a soldier. And I do remember that guy was actually from South Africa. He had a very broken Hebrew. They created a flying checkpoint. And like, a couple of blocks through my house, I could see my house, and we could. I was like, the second or third car. I'm not really sure. I was. I was in a taxi. I was sitting there, and I waited for half an hour, maybe 40 minutes, and then I grabbed my phone to take a picture of the flying checkpoint. And I wanted to send it to my mom and to my friends, telling them, hey, there's a flying checkpoint. I will be late. That is, to my mom, to my friends, telling them, hey, finally made it back home, but there's a flying checkpoint. Because I think a lot of people don't really understand what a flying checkpoint is. I took the picture. I did not even manage to open another app. And the soldier snapped the phone from my hand through the window. And he put his arm 16 to my left side. And I did not say anything. I was. I was, like, smiling at him. And he got really, really pissed. And he starts screaming, saying, like, I'm the superior here. I control the area here. And I was looking at him, like, even right now, recalling that moment, I was just smiling. I'm saying, dude, it's my home. And that was exactly my reaction. And that was like. And that is part of the trauma, right? Like, a normal human would not Be smiling and laughing about it. Even right now telling you the story. I'm laughing about it. And that is part of the trauma that I have. And that guy was really pissed about me not being scared of him. About me not being listening to his orders not to surrender. Right. He wanted to see fear in my eyes. And all he saw is that someone that does not give a shit. I'm sorry for my word. He saw someone that like, like I think the taxi driver was like your eyes were very, very, very brave. Like that guy was like scared of you. It was like the other way around. He was really scared. I had, I was like, don't come near me. And that is scary because like I tend to be a very peaceful person. And he's the one with the gun and yet he's the one who was scared. So I. We do have trauma and I believe they do have trauma. Like when you give a gun to a 16 to 18 years old kid, of course they're going to have trauma as well. Right. So even if I do get a professional help, that was like in 2022, I had a gun at my head. That should cause a trauma. Right now listening to bombs being thrown at my friends, that should cause trauma. So it is a very continuous one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That it will take a while for us to heal from. And let's not forget something that is really, really important. That trauma do move from one generation to another. Like if you look to our cousins, they had the trauma being transmitted to them from the Holocaust to them. And right now they're third and fourth generation who have trauma out of Holocaust. And research have proven that some of them are scared of the Holocaust more than the ones who survived the Holocaust.

[A]

Right, that's quite right. There's a lot of research on that. There's a lot of research on that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And of course there's you know, trauma. The trauma of the. Even, even the, the Palestinians in Jordan.

[B]

And I'm really sorry for that. They should, they should leave soon. I hope so. I'm really sorry, I can't.

[A]

I can't hear a thing of what's going on. So this is fascinating. Tell me what's. I can't.

[B]

Yeah, no, just like couple of gunshots every once in a while.

[A]

So why are you sorry? I should.

[B]

Because I feel sorry.

[A]

Sorry. I should be sorry.

[B]

No, I'm sorry. Because if they are creating any kind of noise.

[A]

Noise I can't hear, I can't see clearly. There's this then it's perfect.

[B]

If you can't hear Them.

[A]

It's not perfect. You keep alerting me so that. Yeah. And you're okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. There is a lot of research on the trauma passed from one generation to another, and particularly those who can't tell their children about the trauma they went through.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we find that, don't we, in the Palestinian settlements, camps in the Lebanon, where so many times I ask people, well, what did your father tell you about it? What did your mother tell him? Not much. Not much.

[B]

Nothing. Exactly. Same thing here. My grandparents, they died at a young age. Now I understand why. Like, they went through the same thing that the people of Gaza are going through right now, the same exact thing. But the only difference is that they were all alone and no one was there. Hearing their voices, their cries, their cry for help. They went through one of the craziest thing anyone could go through. They lost everything within a day. Like, I never imagined how they would feel. Right. So it makes sense that a lot of our grandparents died from a young age. I feel that they died out of sorrow, they died out of sadness. And they. They looked old. You know, they would be in their 40s and their 50s, and they look old because they have seen so much. They have seen so much pain. And like, I'm from West bank, so in west bank were mostly like. Were farmers. So you could imagine, like a very simple farmer on a day. They saw guns and they had to flee. They had to hide in caves for days, for weeks to survive. So they died from a very young age. I never saw them. All I heard about them is that they were good people and they always wanted to help. This is all I knew. And then my dad and my mom, they went through the first intifado. And they don't talk about the first intifado. They don't talk about the NECBA, 1948, Northern Exile, 1967. All they talk about is that we need to move on. We need to be good people and we need to let the people know that Palestinians exist. That is our mission, that we do exist, because a lot of people wanna erase us from history. So trauma from one generation to another is something that I think it has passed to me because a lot of the time I always think, what kind of feelings did they go through? My grandparents, and I can't comprehend what they went through. I cannot comprehend what kind of emotions, like having kids and trying to survive, I can't imagine. So I'm sure I had some of their trauma because I never spoke with them. I Never understood. They never explained themselves to me. And even my parents, again, they tried to put me in a puffle. Not just me, most of the parents. You think you're putting your kids on a shield that would protect them. You put them in a pupple, maybe that pupple would protect them, but maybe acknowledging what happened would help them move on sooner than, Than. Than just thinking. Because for us, for my friends, we think a lot. What did they go through? What happened?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You have actually done a huge amount as well with your. With your life, in your. In your young life. You have done a huge amount. And I. I was reading about you and looking you up and the rest of it, and you've done masses of amount. So without going from, you know, the linear biography, you were born. You were born in the West Bank. You were born in Ramallah. What was that? What was that like growing up? I mean, you told me something of it. You told me something. It was seven years. Seven years old, you know, during the intifada. But tell me something of the joy of living there. Tell me something of your joy then as a child.

[B]

So exactly when you said, what does it feel like growing up in West Bank? The first thing that did come up to my mind is the joy. I remember my mom sitting on the ground and holding my hand and teaching me how to sing. I remember my dad coming back up from work with a huge teddy bear and hugging me as tight as possible. I do remember taking a random cab and going to another area in downtown Ramallah all by myself when I was like, barely 7 years old. And they. And the taxi driver, I did wear, like, my seat belt, and he looked at me, was like, you're a smart young girl, aren't you? And I'm like, yes, I am. He was like, you're gonna cause a lot of trouble for your parents. So, you know, these kind of small things were part of my life. I do remember many of my birthdays. Like, my parents mature. They normalize my. Our lives as much as they can. I come from a family, from a big family, which is completely normal in Palestine. So I do have six siblings. I have four brothers and two sisters.

[A]

Where are you? Where are you in that. In that family?

[B]

I'm the oldest, and they met my parents mature. They gave a lot of love for each and every single one of us. I do remember, like, when my baby brother was born and I did hold him for the first time, and my dad was like, because you're the oldest, you can pick a name. So I named my Baby brother. And that was like another special moment for me. So, yeah, I think I do have a lot of good memories being a child.

[A]

Is your entire family in Ramallah at the moment?

[B]

From my dad's side, yes. They're all in Ramallah, Palestine. From my mom's side, some of them, they left to the US because it's safer. But for my family, the decision of getting another citizenship was not an option. We are Palestinians. We're gonna stay here. And like my dad always say that the decision of us leaving or staying has been made for us specifically 76 years ago. So we're not changing that.

[A]

You, you went to school in, in Ramallah and. And you also went to university there, correct? At the.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes, I, I went. I went to a Christian school and I'm a Muslim. And this is something a lot of people don't know, especially in the West. Palestinians are very, very diverse. We're Muslims, we're Christians and we're Jews as well. We have Samir, which is some kind of Judaism, which is the oldest one. There's Jews who have like the majority of them. I believe they have the Israeli citizenship. But Palestinians are very, very, very diverse. And whatever is going on in Palestine, it is not a conflict of religion. Thank you. Okay, so just to clarify this, I grew up in a Christian school. It was very important for me growing up there. It was huge part of my personality. Because from a young age religion did not matter for us. We're all Pleistinians. I think later on, like going to the U.S. i start realizing, oh, there is Muslims that are Christians. They're the one who putting like labels on us rather than us putting labels on ourselves. Right. We just grew up being us. Right. It really did not matter. But I got a really good education over there. And then on my senior year I wanted to be an engineer. My dad is. This is like his construction. He's civil engineer. So I'm like, I want to be like him. So I told my dad I want to be an engineer. And he was like, you do you. I raised you well and you should know exactly what you want to do. And I'm like, fine. So I went to Birzath University and I did get my degree in mechatronics engineering. Which is.

[A]

What is that? Is that a sort of combination of electro machines and computing? Is that what it is?

[B]

It is control engineering between electrical, mechanical and it. And it's actually a new program. It was a very new program in Piride University. And the dean realized that he has 15 boys and no girls. And he wanted some diversity. I know. And I actually got really good degrees back in uni in my freshman year. And I also had really good degrees in my school. So he called me to his office and he was like, listen, you can build robots, you can build production lines, you can do this, you can do that, you can do whatever you want. And I'm like, dude, you had me at robots. I'm down. Did not do my homework, you know, But I enjoyed it. But after getting my degree, I realized you cannot work as mechatronics engineer in Palestine, nor in the Middle East. Most of my friends actually went to Germany and to the US to get to work in our field. For me, after I got my degree, I worked in construction for a couple of months and it was a bad experience, mainly because the salaries in Palestine are very, very low. If you want to work for local companies, we're speaking about $400 a month and transportations alone would cost you around $300. Because let me tell you something, I think a lot of people don't know, but like Palestinians authority have signed multiple deals and agreements, peace agreements, if you want to call them, with our lovely cousins with Israel. One of them is called Paris Agreement. I don't know if you heard of it.

[A]

I have. Yes, carry on. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We're not going to talk about the agreement itself. I'm going to tell you about the impact of this agreement on the ground. That means if a shawarma sandwich in Tel Aviv worth a certain amount, it should be in a similar, with a similar price in Ramallah. If the gas has a certain rate in Tel Aviv and Ramallah should be a similar rate. There is a small catch on that, which is the income salary of Ramallah, of West bank of Gaza, who cannot be compared to the minimum wage of Israelis. They cannot be compared like they can be one third or 1/5th even. So that is one of the major issues in our economy. A lot of people have to deal with it every single day. That's why I could not stay in that job for long, because it was for me, I could not live paycheck by paycheck. I'm very ambitious person. I wanted to do so many things in my life and I do remember, like being at the job for about three months, sitting with my supervisor, and she was telling me, like, listen, one day you're going to be as successful as me. And after 10 day, after 10 years, she got like 10 years of experience, you're going to get $11,000 as your salary. And I'm like, damn, 10 years, that is so long. I did not say anything. And I'm like, I respect your hard work. And I don't think I have told her. But I resolved the next day and I went back home. I did not have a backup plan, just went back home and I started sending my resume everywhere until one of my friends, she told me, like, listen, there's a tech company in Palestine. They have their R and D, the company, headquartered in Hong Kong, and they're looking for quality assurance engineers. Are you interested? And I'm like, yes, I am. So I gave her my resume and I opened Google and I Googled, what does quality assurance stand for?

[A]

So clearly you thought about this very carefully before you said, yes, I have.

[B]

Clearly thought exactly right. Then I start reading what quality assurance means Intake, specifically startups. And I went to the interview, there were like 40 people over there and a lot of them were actually coming from computer engineering, computer science. They were like, they know their stuff. Like, I. Last time I did a programming was like, pack on. My freshman year in uni was one of the hires. They hired three people. I was one of them. So I got lucky. I think as people do work hard, I work hard, right? I do believe that you need to work hard, but luck plays a role in your accomplishments and we do need to acknowledge that. I'm sorry. So I was. I worked hard, but yet I was lucky to get the job. And I was the first quality assurance engineer over there. And I kept growing from one position to another. And after a while, I decided to leave the company and I opened my own because. Not because I want to tell you a funny story. When I met my boss, he's like, where do you see yourself in five years? I'm like, opening my own business. And he was like, awesome. What are you thinking? I'm like, I have no clue, but I'm going to open my own business and I will come for you for advice if I needed to. And he was like, oh, okay, do that. Five years later, I opened my own thing and I called him and he is. Until now, he's still one of my mentors. So I opened my first startup, which is Amal. At Amal, I wanted to do something that is a combination between something I'm very passionate about, which is construction, because it's my family business. And I worked on it for a while, something related to my education and something related to my experience, which is tech. So Hamal was that for me. And at Tamil, we wanted to create A marketplace to connect construction workers with contractors. So because the company had, the company that I used to work at had two offices, one in Ramallah, one in Jerusalem. So I had to go through multiple checkpoints a day. And when you go through multiple checkpoints a day, you meet the leopard and you have a lot of conversations with them and you understand their struggles, what they go through to get a simple job. And I always had this conversation with my dad. But when I decided to open my startup, my dad said one thing, one line that opened my eyes to the issue of matching construction workers with contractors, which is my dad said, is that finding a doctor is easier than finding a good labor. And I'm like, dad, they're everywhere. And he said, no, they're not. How would I know if they are qualified to do the job? How would I know that they know? Because my dad's point of view was they need the job. So even if they don't know how to do it, they're going to say they can do it. And then I will be stuck with a guy that doesn't know how to do it. But I do understand why he's, why he lied because he needed the cash, right? And I'm like, easy fix that. Easy fix. So I had bunch of savings and I resigned from my job and I opened amel. AMEL was a marketplace to match construction workers with contractors. In a matter of couple of months, we had around 3,000 construction workers. We helped them get jobs that were $300,000. We did not generate any profit from it, but we were happy that we were doing impact. So what we did is that we asked all the leapers to sign up to our platform and then we would call them and we would have a conversation with them about their work. If they're seniors, we would go to their site and see their work and we would take pictures of their work. They're mid level, you will have a couple of questions over the phone and they're good to go. If they're juniors, they are the easiest one. We just tag them as juniors and we make sure we put them with someone who is mid level or senior level. And normal people can be very honest if they are juniors. So this is what we did. And we did map them to different locations to different professions. And then we went to the contractor union and we downloaded all their. We got a list of all the contractors and we called each and every single one of them. And this is how we got a bunch of our clients in Palestine and we start doing the matching over the phone. So it was fun to go to work every day. And that was a little bit before COVID And then Covid hit and that was bad.

[A]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[B]

Yeah, because everything did shut down. But we were lucky to get a Grant from Expo 2020, from 4,000 people who have applied. We were the only Arab country who got the grant. And this grant helped us like to sustain the company and build the actual product. Because before that we were using Google forms, which was our minimum viable product, to see if this is really a problem, can we really solve an issue here. And after doing that, we got a grant, we start working and we start thinking of other ways of generating revenues. And we realized something is that we have a lot of insights because I'm a very data oriented person. So whenever our operation manager will tell me that we need to focus on this or that, I always used to tell her, give me your reason with data, please quantify it. And I realized is that we were one of the very few people who used to do that. So we reach out to Ministry of Labor in Palestine during COVID and we're like, you know what? We have a sample of 3,000 construction workers and we can tell you the effects of COVID on the construction sector. And you need to realize that construction sector is one of the biggest in Palestine. So whatever analysis that we give you about the impact of these labor, it can be replicated in all of the Palestinian economy. And we did that. We start creating reports, charts, and it was fun. I was enjoying my time. Our operation manager did not enjoy it one bit, but I was. But yeah, we loved working with the Ministry of Labor, just generating reports and insights about the impact of COVID on the lipid. And that made us actually realize that there are a bigger market about creating analysis and reports on the leaper. And that was at the back of our mind. But we decided to try to help Amal scale out of Palestine and we started looking for bigger markets. So we started looking for a market that is investing in digitalization, has a lot of construction going on and there is capital to invest in tech companies. And it was Saudi Arabia. So we tried to scale AML to Saudi Arabia. Things did not work out. And we were like, you know what, that's fine, let's listen to the clients. And that was one of the hardest thing ever, which is closing AML when we realized we cannot scale it up because the condition that Amal was created was built for Palestine and Palestine only, and it cannot grow out of Palestine. So we decided to Put our ego aside, Close Amal. Listen to our clients, let them tell us where is exactly the issue. Let us fall in love with the problem and then find the solution for this problem. And this is how we create a trace. In January 2022, we had 200 customer discovery interviews with construction companies in Saudi Arabia. How did we find these 200 companies? They're a little bit less than 200 who agreed to have interviews with us. We actually mapped over a thousand construction companies in Saudi Arabia and we reached out to them, called emails, LinkedIn, you name it. And some of them agreed to have a meeting with us. And the conversation was very simple. Tell us about your day to day, tell us your struggles, your obstacles. What do you like about your job? What do you don't like about your job? We did not try to impose any of our solution, any of our thoughts. We just wanted to get information from them. But we did not do that alone. While we were doing that, we have been doing crazy amount of secondary market research. We read everything related to the construction industry published by anything that is trusted. Right? Like McKinsey has been publishing a lot about construction digitalization and the issues in construction. EY has also been publishing a lot. So we have been reading all these reports, all these research, any big construction tech companies who have been publishing about the issues about any business cases, we also have been reading about them. And we just put our construction in construction reports and analysis aside and we put also all the insights and information that we got from our interviews and from there we come up with trace. Trace is B2B SaaS Construction lapel platform to increase the lapel productivity. We collect real time data from everyone on site and we associate this data with the progress for the subtask. And from there we analyze and we transform this data into customizable productivity dashboards and reports.

[A]

Your customer base is where, where's your customer base now?

[B]

Saudi Arabia Arabia. And we have expanded to Egypt. Like two months ago, we expanded to Egypt.

[A]

So I fell in love with the problem. You said tell me about falling in love with the problem.

[B]

Well, for me I love a big problem, I love a complicated problem. And if you fall in love with the problem, you want to find a solution for it. And the issue right now is going on with entrepreneurs in general that we love the product, we love the solution. So it becomes so hard for you to modify it, to enhance it and sometimes to pivot because maybe the solution that you built is not the right one for the problem and maybe you're not solving the problem that the clients want to pay for. So for us, it was really important that we fall in love with labor productivity as a problem and try to find the best solution for it. And this way our mind is always programmed to solve the problem, not to enhance the product and make it. You cannot make a product must to have if the problem is not must to have.

[A]

And the. And the company is how many, how many people does it employ and is it now beginning to get profitable or more than beginning to get profitable?

[B]

So, no, we're still an early stages startup. We started in January 2023, 2022. I'm sorry, so we're two years old. Took us a year and a half to build the product. And after that we have two clients in Sahuri and we are closing another two palace in Egypt. We're generating revenues, so we're lucky to do so, but are not making profit yet. And October 7th have impacted us quite a lot. But we're trying to manage. The company did have over 14 people, but right now we are 5. For obvious reasons of what has been going on.

[A]

What I find fascinating is that here am I sitting in Berlin, a few thousand miles away from Palestine, and what's going on in Gaza sort of consumes so much of my emotion in my day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That I sometimes I find it, you know, I, I find it difficult to work. And this is not a. Which is. And, and you are right in it. And your brain and your curiosity and your sense of adventure keeps driving like this. I find that extraordinary. I find, I mean, you know, let me not praise you too much, but I do. I just, I find it amazing and really refreshing this energy that you've put into your, your creativity and your, and your work. When you're sitting right, right in it, when, you know, we talk and you have gunshots outside. Is that something you, you reflect on? Is that something you think about or is that, does that. Is that something that you think is part of your. I was going to say part of your makeup? I don't believe in. It's in anybody's part of their makeup. Is that something that you have grown into?

[B]

Yes. Well, I do reflect a lot about how I can do it and not me like all the Palestinians, how we can do it. And this is part of the resilience. This is part of moving on. I don't like to associate Palestinians with resilience. I don't like to be associated with like moving on. But this is how we learned. Right. We don't stop, keep moving. Doesn't take as much of reflecting. We reflect very fast. We keep going. We always look forward. We don't have time to. When you said they don't hold a grudge, they don't hate. Yes, they don't. They don't like what happened. But we don't want to be blocked by our hatred or what's going on. You just move on. You keep focusing of being the same exact person. You don't want them to change you. You don't want them to make you less human. So you keep giving forward, you keep loving, and you keep moving to prove to yourself. And once you prove things to yourself that you're capable of giving, you're also proving to the people around you that you are capable. But your main focus was not proving to the people. It was to prove to you that you are capable. This is your way out. This is your way out. And this is your way to give back to your community, to the people that. That you love and you care about.

[A]

You've been lovely and you've brought tears to my eyes more than half a dozen times through this entire conversation. I found it very moving. I find your joy moving. I find your curiosity moving. And I find your empathy beyond my capacity. Thank you so much.

[B]

I really appreciate that.

[A]

My guest today was Rohan from the west bank in Palestine. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please follow the show. Review us or rate us. And of course, please do recommend us to all your friends. The stories of the people we champion here need to be heard as widely as possible. I really do believe that. And I also believe you're the one who can help make that happen. I'm Stephen Barton. This has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey.