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Migrant Odyssey
EP. 20 Sudan: Ethar, the lemon tree, the meandering donkey and 70 years of war.
01:16:06
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- [00:00]
Ithar
FOREIGN.
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Stephen Barden
Hello and welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey. Today, my guest is Itha from the Sudan. But before we meet her, I think it's a good idea to provide some historical context for her story. And I'm aware, by the way, that in doing so, I may leave out certain important and even very important events, not deliberately or even oversimplify them. Sudan sits in the northeast corner of Africa, one of the continent's largest countries. It's enormous, almost 2 million square miles bigger than France, Spain, Sweden and Germany combined. About 46 million people live there. It's rich in gold, and yet it's still one of the poorest countries in the world. Before the British colonized it in 1899, supposedly in partnership with Egypt, though in reality, of course, Britain ran the show. It actually wasn't a single entity at all. It was a mosaic of kingdoms, sultanates, regions, each with their own power and history. The British wrestled it together to serve.
- [01:20]
Interviewer
Their own strategic needs.
- [01:21]
Stephen Barden
But even then, they ruled the north and south separately. When independence came in 1956, the British favored northern elite insisted that the two be merged. And that decision, that forced union would shape Sudan's story for the next 70 years. Those seven decades have been dominated by four overlapping major struggles. First, the constant power battles among the political and military elites in the north. Second, the south's long fight at first for autonomy and later for independence. Number three, the devastating conflict in the west in Darfur, the and now the latest civil war fought between two rival arms of the military. In the north, the first civil war began even before independence, the Anya nya Rebellion of 1955, when Southern forces demanded more self rule, but not necessarily complete independence. At the time, that lasted 17 years and a million people died in it. After that 1956 independence, the country was led by a weak civilian government from Khartoum, which was toppled after two years in a coup led by General Ibrahim Aboud. He ruled until 1964, when protests erupted after his forces attacked students at the University of Khartoum. For a few years after that, the country experimented with democracy. Experimented is entirely the wrong word. They tried to make democracy work, but political infighting paralyzed it. In 1969, another military officer, Ghaffar Nimeri, seized power, banning all political parties. Meanwhile, Islamic movements were growing in influence, especially the National Islamic Front, led by Hassan Al Turabi, a brilliant and controversial scholar educated in Khartoum, London and the Sorbonne. While the north was wrangling over ideology and power, the south was getting reorganized. They united their various rebel groups under The Southern Sudan Liberation Movement, reportedly with help from Israel. That unity led to the Addis ababa Agreement in 1972, ending the first civil war and granting the South a measure of autonomy. And for a while that seemed to work. But by the early 1980s, the deal began to crumble. In fact, in 1983, Nimeri tore up the agreement, revoked the South's autonomy and imposed Sharia law across the country. That decision ignited the second Sudanese civil war, which would last 22 years, in which around 2 million people died from violence, famine and disease. And 4 million people in South Sudan were displaced at least once. One of those, by the way, was Dendak Malual, my very first guest on Migrant Odyssey. That year, US military aid to Sudan began to rise sharply, another reminder that foreign powers always had a hand in Sudan's affairs. Two years later, Nimeri was overthrown. A brief democratic government followed. But in 89, yet another couple brought Omar Al Bashir to power. Bashir would rule for 30 years.
- [05:29]
Ithar
Through.
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Stephen Barden
All of this, the north south war raged on until 2005 when a peace deal was signed. And in 2011 the south voted to form a new country, South Sudan. Even while that north south war was at its height, another one was brewing in Sudan's west in Darfur. After Bashir took power, Darfur's people felt increasingly abandoned and discriminated against. And in 2003, when they took up arms, Bashir's government struck back brutally, sending in the infamous Janjaweed militia to terrorize Darfurians into submission. The Janjaweeds campaign of terror was truly awful. They burned hundreds of villages and killed and raped indiscriminately and en masse. Hundreds of thousands were murdered or driven from their homes. Bashir himself clung to power in Khartoum until 2019, when a wave of courageous street protests forced him out. Hopes for democracy once again surged, but once again were quickly shattered. That same year, the rapid support forces, which were actually the Janjaweed, now integrated into Sudan's military under another name, attacked peaceful demonstrators in Khartoum. That became known as the Khartoum Massacre, in which again the RSF killed and raped as they had done in Darfur when they were the Janjaweed. There were hundreds of casualties and women were subjected to horrific sexual violence meant, as always, not just to wound, but to humiliate and to silence. Since then, Sudan has descended once again into all out war, this time between the Sudanese armed forces led by General Abdel Fattah Al Burhan and his former deputy, now rival Mohammed Hamdan Dagalo or Hemeti, who commands the rsf. It's often framed as a simple power struggle between two men. But that, as always, is an oversimplification. Right now, the city of El FHR in northern Darfur has been under siege for more than 500 days. A quarter of a million people are trapped in there, cut off from food, from medicine, and of course, from escape. The two sides in this war have lost and won swathes of the country, and nowhere is considered entirely safe. That includes the capital, Khartoum, and the state, which you'll hear a lot about today. Jazeera. But Sudan is not just about violence and coups and power struggles. It's a place families of people going about their business in villages and towns and cities, of friendships across all so called divides, of huge creativity and ingenuity, of people understanding. And you'll hear this today, that armed warfare, no matter what ideals started them, have solved nothing for their country. And like Ithar, they try to change things that really matter on the ground, not ideologically, but practically to make life better ether.
- [09:17]
Interviewer
Hello and welcome to Migrant Odyssey. Good to see you.
- [09:22]
Stephen Barden
I can see you. Nobody else can, but I can see you.
- [09:26]
Ithar
Good to see you and I'm happy to be here.
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Interviewer
You were telling me when we were, when we were talking earlier on that you were born in a storm, is that right?
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Ithar
Yes, that's correct. In the middle of a Sandy storm.
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Interviewer
And then you mentioned something about an earthquake. What was that about?
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Ithar
So a few days prior to my birth, there was an earthquake in Khartoum, the city I was born in. And it's not something common where I come from. So my mom panicked a bit and while she was trying to get out of the house, she fell on the ground and hit her back, which caused an injury till this day. And that's my first story. That's the first story I heard about my life.
- [10:13]
Interviewer
It's interesting because you were born in a storm, in the sandstorm, an earthquake just before. But also the country had been going through a storm from, I mean, for a long time. But it just, from 1955 onwards, it was a sort of continuation from the time it reached independence, in fact, even before it reached independence, of course. And as I was saying to you earlier on that, you know, I was. My introduction, my first introduction to this podcast to try and give a briefing was going to last longer than the podcast itself because there was so much of it as a child. How much were you aware of the storm, if you like, that was your.
- [11:04]
Ithar
Country at the time, I wasn't very aware. I noticed something was happening because my father was getting arrested every couple of days. So I realized there is something happening in the country, there is something wrong. But I did not understand the severity of it or the size of it. It just. Something is off that my limitations.
- [11:26]
Interviewer
And, and, and why was your father getting arrested?
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Ithar
Well, he was part of the Communist Party, so in Sudan, that's one of the biggest opposition to the government. So by default, if you're not with the government, then you have issues with the government. It doesn't matter the type of activities that you do, they will make your life extremely hard. This is how they ruled the country for 30 years.
- [11:53]
Interviewer
Yeah. And of course, the Communist Party at one stage formed a government until it was the interim. After Numeri came in, he was deposed, then they were toppled in turn when they came back. So basically, you were living at a time when the central Khartoum government was tightening control very much and going after all its opposition.
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Ithar
Exactly.
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Interviewer
And was your house getting raided constantly by people coming to arrest your father?
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Ithar
It was like I was so little to remember because this even started before my birth. It was happening by the time I came to life. It was a normal occurrence in my house. So they will come, they would raid, they will enter in unexpected times, in times that they would come to the house, and my father will be taking care of us. And in that situation, there is no one else because both him and my mother used to work. So if they came and it was only him in the house, he will beg them to let it, to let him take us to my mother, who worked in the House of Justice, like, ironically. So they will go there to drop us down to my mother, and then they will take him for interrogation.
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Interviewer
And I hate to ask this, but was your father tortured when he was interrogated, or were they simply harassing him? What were they doing?
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Ithar
Honestly, that has never been a conversation in my house. My father never talks about this strong enough. Like, the stories I heard, it was from my mother. And whenever I remember, like, I have very small glimpse of memories about this. And I never remember seeing him in pain or saying that he was tortured. I don't know if it happened or not. I just know that he never made. Like, he made sure that never a conversation in my house. That's never a concern for us as kids.
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Interviewer
And your mother worked for the Ministry of Justice, Right. So your mother was part of the government, in a sense, and your father was in opposition. How did that work out in the Household.
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Ithar
Oh my God. That's so funny, because whenever I tell this story, all my friends are surprised. They get along very well at home. There was no issues, nothing that I remember. And they were just standing on different sides, politically speaking. Because she believes that Islam is the way to manage everything and it needs to be done in a proper way. And that was not the case because years later that's had perspective shifted. She was talking about that she wanted an Islamic based system, but that's not an Islamic based system. They are using religion for their own benefit. They are too sting it and they are playing around it. So over time she herself had like seen things differently. But my father was never an influence in that. They gave each other the freedom to see things as they think because they both have a shared goal, which is a better Sudan for all of us.
- [15:08]
Interviewer
Yeah. So you were born in Khatoum, but with all this toing and froing with people raiding their house and the uncertainty, you then went to live with your grandparents, is that right?
- [15:25]
Ithar
That's right. At a point, it was very hard for my father to even keep working in the country. It's got to a point where it's not safe. It's just not beneficial. At this point, he was not making money because they will be taking him more than he can actually spend working. And it was just not an ideal situation. So he decided that he needs to pursue work elsewhere and actually leave the country. So he left the country and us. We went to live with my grandfather because it was tricky situation. My mom stayed in her tomb where her work is. My father left the country. He was moving around countries until he finally settled in Saudi Arabia. And we went to Jazeera in a small village called Abu Adara to live with both my grandparents and my aunts. And I went to school there for three years, I think.
- [16:24]
Interviewer
So that was in Jazeera, is that right?
- [16:27]
Ithar
Yes, Jazeera State.
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Interviewer
And that is in Central east, part of the Sudan, correct?
- [16:37]
Ithar
Yes, correct at the time. Because I was born to the breeze, separation Sudan. So that's just Central Sudan.
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Interviewer
Did you go on your own? Did you have siblings, brothers, sisters that went with you?
- [16:51]
Ithar
Yes, I had two sisters, two older sisters, and we all went together. My mom actually took us, she spent a little time with us and then she had to come back to her tomb for her work and she left it there.
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Interviewer
And tell me something about that. Tell me something about living with your grandparents.
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Ithar
That's a fun time. That's memories I'm very fond of. Because my grandfather Was a farmer and a butcher. So we had a big house there, an extremely big house. We had an animal set of animals near the house. Like he was raising the animals. And then he would go to his farming land. Sometimes he would take me with him and sometimes he will go to the market because, like, he has a shop there to sell his produce and to sell the meat that comes from our slaughterhouse. So we have that. It has. It's nice. Like, my grandfather is a very nice guy. Mehristem beast. I love him so much. He's very patient. He's like, he puts the effort to educate you. Answer your question. Because I was a kid with so many questions, like, extremely so he was always answering my questions. And I think I was kind of grandfather, daughter. Like, I was always with him. He taught me a lot. And I even spent time with him explaining to me why we slow water animals, how we do so, what's the Islamic teachings when it comes to that? And the best way to practice this. And he always talked about how we should respect the food, how we should respect the soil that feeds us. How should we deal with food in general? It was a very big part of my life. Like, till this day, food waste is a something that's dear to my heart because I have learned that very early at age. I learned it from a religious perspective, from a cultural perspective, and from a family point of view. So I love my time in there.
- [18:58]
Interviewer
Tell me, give me an image of your favorite time with your grandfather.
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Stephen Barden
Where were you?
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Interviewer
What did it look like? What did he talk about? Just one instant.
- [19:13]
Ithar
Okay. So one of the animals my grandfather raised was donkeys. He had a donkey we called kejol. Kajol in our dialect means that who can't walk in a straight line? Because that donkey could not walk in a straight line for her life. It never happened. And I remember him putting me on top of Kajol. Kajol always brings grandfather his food, takes it to the farm or to the market. Like, we put the food on it. And she would take it to grandfather. And I remember him taking me. He put me on kajol, and we were going together to his farmland. Tul hawasha, that's what we call it. And I will be on top of Kajol. She's walking slowly, not in a straight line near my grandfather. And he will be telling me a story like a traditional Sudanese story. It's something both my grandfather and grandmother did. And that's always a memory that I have of both of them. But I just Remember that moment, me on top of Kadal, talking to my grandfather. Everything was peaceful, life was fun. And I love donkeys so much. Till this day, I love donkeys and fejolis. Like, my first memory of donkeys. I think they are nice pets. Yeah.
- [20:36]
Interviewer
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right.
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Stephen Barden
And.
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Interviewer
And your grandmother.
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Ithar
My grandmother was a very nice and poetic lady. Even when she wants to shout at us because we did something wrong, she will do it poetically. Like she would say, it's kind of interesting. It drives. It feels like a boy. But she's actually mad at us. I. I love her so much. She would sit with us under the lemon tree and we will have coffee. I learned to drink coffee at a very early age with her. And she would also tell us traditional Sudanese stories, usually about girls such as Fatima, Samha, Briti. Fatima and I would always have so many questions about this, and at a point, she would just get tired and she would send me to my grandfather to answer them because she don't know how to do it anymore.
- [21:38]
Interviewer
And so how long did you stay there? Because then you went back to Khartoum, right?
- [21:44]
Ithar
Yes, I stayed for about four years. Four or five years. And we went back. The reason why we went back is, was I had a little sister. She died at 2 years old. She was born while we're in Jazira, and my mom took time out and she time off of work. And she came with her to, like, we all spend time as a family together. And I remember that when she passed away, she was sick. She just had diarrhea, which is something a lot of kids get. But it means that you need fluids, you need hydration, and that's not something that's easy to get in Sudan. Let's not generalize at the time, because it was rainy season. Some villages and small areas would get so surrounded by water that you can't get in or out. So there is no supplies coming in or going out. And that means simple things like hydration, panadol drips, and stuff like this would not be available. And that was the case because religiously speaking, we know that your day is your day. And that happens regardless of you have access to things or not. But you would like to be able to gain that access. You would want to do everything that you can to your family. And I think when my mother couldn't do that, she felt the guilt. Both her and my father, they did not understand how we could need something, and they won't be able to provide it. For us. So hence they made the decision of moving us back to Khashom. And at the time, my father had a sustained. Has sustained a good job and he was living in Saudi Arabia, so he can afford to actually buy us a house. He bought us a house in Khartoum, which we moved to. My mother felt like she can't work anymore. She wants to be with us all the time to take care of us. And I think it's part like her feeling guilty about what happens and just feeling concerned. So she stayed at home, she stopped working and we lived in Khartoum. We back again to Khartoum.
- [23:59]
Interviewer
And you went to school in Khartoum, Right?
- [24:03]
Ithar
I actually started school in Al Jazeera. And then when we moved to her tomb, I have to go back to finish school. So I went to school in Khartoum. Both my sisters and I went to the same school, which was not easy because we're coming from the countryside, we're coming from a small village. So every teacher assumed that we're not going to be smart enough to compete. We're not going to be able to understand that our level of education does not come across to the level of education they provide. And there was a little bit of bullying for us by the teachers because they did not hide that. They were very clear of, this is what we think and this is how we look at you. And I felt. I felt bad about it. I was a bit sad.
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Interviewer
Sad or sad or cross? Sad or angry? Which one? Or both?
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Ithar
I think it's. Yeah, it's both a bit of like anger, sadness. And I was mainly annoyed. Like, I was just annoyed because why would you think that? Like, wait and see. Why would you assume. And I. It also meant that the students weren't feeling very warm toward us because when a teacher does that, then the students would like, will follow. So for my first term in school, it wasn't the nicest because I was trying to make friends, I was trying to adapt up, I was trying to follow the rules because I also didn't really follow the rules when it comes to the dress code and stuff. I was not used to that. I had more freedom in the village that I lived in. So it took me one term to just feel a little bit at home because by then I had two friends. I got familiar with everything. I understood how to like manage and sustain myself in there, how to. To deal with everyone. And I didn't do great in that term. In terms of results wise, it was not bad. I was in the top 10 in my class. But that's not good from where I come from. My family are overachievers. That's never good for them. So second term, I was more comfortable and I didn't care anymore what the teachers think. I had friends I can navigate through school and area I moved to, and then I was the top of my class. And that has shifted everything. The moment that I got on the top of my class, teachers started behaving differently. I. I didn't feel bullied anymore. I was more respected, and things were getting easier by then.
- [26:46]
Interviewer
Did the teachers ever acknowledge that they had got you wrong, as it were? They had mistreated you, they had assumed incorrectly, or did they simply just change their attitude?
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Ithar
They just changed that attitude. No one, like, acknowledged that they did something wrong.
- [27:05]
Interviewer
So that must have been quite something because you. You'd left a place that you really loved, coming to a strange place. And of course, they. The teachers then made you feel even more strange, even more out of place.
- [27:17]
Ithar
It was. It was. But at the same time, because my mom made the decision of staying home with us, she was putting the extra effort to compensate for that, for whatever thing that I come back from a school feeling she would manage that. My sisters were in the same school, and they seen that happen and it happens to them, but they took, like, extra care of me. So when I remember it, I was annoyed. I was a bit pissed off and a little bit sad, but it was not a big deal because I had a support system.
- [27:51]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's. That's very important. I asked you when we were. When we were getting to know one another. I asked you whether you were a naughty child. And you were a bit. Weren't you? You were. You were. You really did stand up for yourself, didn't you?
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Ithar
I did. Well, I. I have been raised well. Both my parents and grandparents has been amazing with me. So I learned at a very early age that I have rights and people be disrespecting me or dealing with me in specific ways. And I just wouldn't take things. That's not my responsibility. Because when the teacher decides that they want to punish the entire class and I did nothing wrong, I will not allow for it. I would stand up for myself. And when the teacher refuses to teach us something or explain something that I did not understand, I would also stand for myself. Because, like, that's your job. You're supposed to educate me. I did not get it. You're gonna put an effort until I understand.
- [28:49]
Interviewer
There were two instances which you told. Which I found delightful.
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Stephen Barden
The One was when, as you said.
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Interviewer
The teacher tried to collectively punish the whole class because one unknown person had done something, and you refused to take the punishment. Right. What happened? Just tell us what happened then, because that's a great story.
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Ithar
She insisted. She insisted she did not care for what I said and my opinion. And she was beating us. So I was. I got hit by her. And that was terribly bad. I. I was crying to the degree that I can't talk. My hand was swollen. And I just got up from the class and I went straight back home. And I had this good friend of mine who came and took my bag. And she came right after me. She was just coming behind me. And when I got home, my father was home because he comes for vacations whenever he can. And I was just knocking on the door. He opens the door and he sees me like this, and he's asking me, what. What's happening? And I'm crying to the degree that I can't explain it. So my friend right behind me explained everything. He looked at her and he was like, put the bags down. My bag and her bag, and you both are coming back with me. And we went back to school. And his very thing, he. The very thing he said, he comes from a legal background. He's a legal consultant. Was. It's illegal to hit kids. It's not allowed. The Sudanese government has a rule about this. That's not allowed. Your teacher has done something illegal. And the only reason I'm here back to talk about it is not that I want to discuss it. I want to know the full name of the teacher, because my daughter can't even priest to tell me the name of the teacher. And we're heading to take this, the legal route. And he said that to the principal. So she was calming him down. She did everything in her power to, like, persuade him not to take this to the legal route, not to report the teacher. And they both apologized to him and to me. And from that day on, I was untouched in school. No one would dare to punish me for something that I did not do. No one would dare to even look at me when they want to generalize something. If I did not do a mistake, no one would actually talk to me.
- [31:10]
Interviewer
The other one that I found amusing was when the teacher was. You told me that the teacher had been too embarrassed to talk to you about the science of sex education.
- [31:21]
Ithar
Yes, it was part of the class. It was part of the curriculum, and it was the day that we're supposed to take that lesson. So she did. She Started it. And she did not even say any details or explain. She just said broad terms and I did not understand. I was like, teacher, can you explain more? I don't get it. What are you saying? And she was like, go ask your mom. And I looked at her and I was like, but that's a science class. It's your responsibility, not my mother's responsibility. You should be the one explaining it. And my mother actually backed me on that. She was like, I can explain from a religious and cultural perspective, but scientifically speaking, you still need to educate her and teach her. She should not come to me to do your job. You should be able to do that. And I love that because they always back me up. I could fight those fights. I could ask for my right. My rights.
- [32:17]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's that I've, I've come to know about you is you certainly fight for your rights. So when, when you, you, you finished school and you graduated from school and you went to college, correct?
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Ithar
Yes, correct.
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Interviewer
And that was 2010, right? And what did you do? What did you do at university 15 years ago?
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Ithar
2010? So I was a science student. I was studying physics and mathematics. My major is in physics with mathematics as a minor.
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Interviewer
Why did you do that? I mean, did you do it because you were curious about, about physics or did you, did you feel you were going to use it in your life? Why did you take those subjects?
- [33:04]
Ithar
Okay, so there was two main factors to my decision. One was having fun. I wanted to learn something that I would enjoy in school. I was always fascinated by physics and mathematics. I love them. I had a lot of questions and I was always getting good grades and it was something that interest me. So I chose it purely on that. Although my parents made sure that I need to understand that whatever I learned was impact my career path. And they had a lot of opinions on what I should do and what type of career paths would work better for me.
- [33:41]
Interviewer
And despite the fact that you were actually in a quite a political family, you didn't get involved in politics, did you? Your parents didn't want you to get involved in politics during university, Is that correct? Am I right?
- [33:54]
Ithar
Yes, that's correct. Like, my parents had a lot of rules for us growing up. Rules like we're not allowed to watch TV unsupervised at assertion age, you're not allowed to watch the news. We were not allowed to carry phone, like cell phone, unless it's specific times or like for emergency cases. We're not allowed to do a lot of Stuff. So practicing politics in college was not allowed for us, was not even an option. They said that you can attend events, you can learn, you can educate yourself, but you cannot actually practice. You cannot join a political party, you cannot lead any type of political activities while in college, which from a safety perspective at the time, it was not very safe. And from their perspective and lived experience because both of them had very clear political orientation. And later on they left. My father left the Communist party because he believed they were not doing things in a proper way. He still believed as a concept, just not the Sudanese party. My mother the same lives in like an Islamic approach to everything, but she thinks that no one has succeeded to do that. No political party has succeeded to do that. So that affected as well. So they wanted to protect us and delay problems as much as possible to a time where we can actually handle it and lead it on our own and be able to solve our own stuff. So that was. That's the reasoning and logic behind it.
- [35:37]
Interviewer
And at that time, around that time, the second. The second North South War had. Was about to end, wasn't it? Was. Was there was 2011, I think it. It ended, didn't it? And when.
- [35:48]
Ithar
When the south seceded, actually the peace agreement was a bit earlier to that. Like the. The peace agreement was signed in 2005. And at the time we had a political leader called John Garang Dimabee. He was like leading the. The South Sudanese movement, the. The splm. And he was even appointed vice president of the country few weeks later. He passed away. Like he was appointed, I think in the beginning of July, and by the end of July or the beginning of beginning of August, he passed away.
- [36:27]
Interviewer
He was. He was killed. He was killed in a helicopter.
- [36:31]
Ithar
He was killed in a helicopter crash while leaving Uganda, going back to Juba, South Sudan. And that was a big, like. That was a big event that draw my attention because I was still a child. I wasn't very aware. And that event like drew my attention to the issue because there was protest in the street of Khartoum, South Sudanese people were very furious and upset about what happened. And many Sudanese as well, like from everywhere. John Garang Dimabur was a political leader that a lot of people respected. And he was the first political leader that I actually liked. I liked how he approached things and how he publicly spoke about Sudan. And I remember him saying that our Sudanism should unite us and should end all wars. And that's something that I believe till this day because we're allowing other perspectives if to tear Us apart. And we're using words like Arab tribes and African tribes. And at the end of the day, we're both. We. We always. We all speak the language, so we're all Arab and we all live in Africa, so we're all Africans. It just makes no sense. So that was a leader that I really looked up to. He passed away. Like he was killed in. In the helicopter crash in 2005. And then in 2011 was the election to decide whether Sudan and South Sudan would remain one nation or a separation will occur. And the vote went in favor for separation. Yeah, so we lived that. We lived in a time where your neighbors have to go away. The person that has always been there, that's their home. Khartoum is their home as much as it is yours. But they are no longer legally allowed to stay in the country because they are not considered as Sudanese. The system was not friendly, was not simple. They did not try to make it easy to the people to decide what works for them. Some people were requested to go back to Malakal, to cities they no longer have family in, start from scratch. And it is just a hard situation. So when you look at that, that's what it's not easy to live through.
- [38:48]
Interviewer
So how did they decide who was South Sudanese and who was. Was it where they were born or what? What was it? So in other words, if they were born in Khartoum, were they then of South Sudanese parents? Were they then South Sudanese or not Sudanese? What were they?
- [39:03]
Ithar
They were South Sudanese. It depends on parents, system, nationality in Sudan depends on your parents. So if your parents are South Sudanese, then it is. And it's concerning because I had some friends, a friend of mine who had her mother from South Sudan and her father from Nuba Mountains, which is Sudan, is part of Sudan now called Sudan. So how would you decide for someone like this? This is both countries at their home, and they are supposed to be able to live in where they feel at home. But that was not a decision to the individuals. It was system based on parents and mothers don't have the right to give their kids the nationality fathers do. So that's how it's decided. You don't have a say in it.
- [39:54]
Interviewer
So despite the fact that it was certainly viewed at the outside world that from 2005 to 2011 there was relative sort of harmony when that secession happened, nobody made it easy for the other part. Suzanne didn't make it easy for South Sudanese. And South Sudanese, I assume, did not make it easy for Sudanese living in the wrong parts of the country, if you like, they didn't make it easy for that transition. Is that right?
- [40:25]
Ithar
Yeah, exactly. It was. The people were not put in the heart of this because when you look at it, you see that there was a voting, it was a democratic process, it was. The election was monitored. But how it was implemented, people were not put in the heart of this. Their best interest was not put in the heart of this. It took years for this to. For people to figure out their lives, to like arrang things and even universities, because University of Juba was like one of the largest universities in Sudan. It was based in Khartoum. And then it has to move to Juba. And if you're studying there, you might not be able to enter the country over there. If you're not South Sudanese, you have to figure out a way. It was very tricky situation and it took effort for some of the teachers to actually relocate there. And for the students, it was a hustle for many people. It was not easy, it was not smooth at all.
- [41:24]
Interviewer
And John Garand was right, wasn't he, that people who felt they were Sudanese, wherever they had come from, suddenly felt they weren't Sudanese because they were being move from one part of the country, had to move from one part of the country to the other, weren't recognized. Yeah, I can see that.
- [41:40]
Ithar
And.
- [41:40]
Interviewer
And of course the anger, the anger at the time about Garant was that there was strong suspicion that he was assassinated. Correct. That there was a deliberate.
- [41:49]
Ithar
Exactly, exactly. Like we. There is no proof, but that's how it happens every time someone is assassinated. And it's. It was well associated with Al Bashir that whoever opposes him would disappear in an accident. He would ride a helicopter and disappear or maybe a car and disappear. Mysterious accident happens. So people were very upset about it. There was anger on the streets. I remember on that day I went out of school and there was many South Sudanese on the streets who are upset and angry and they were beating people. Some of them were like they were beating people. And I was in the middle of that. I got beaten by a couple of kids my age. And it was just. It was a scary moment. And I remember Ajin. Ajin is my hero, I would like to say. He's a South Sudanese neighbor of mine and he just came to check on me. And there is another girl, Zeynep, who is also from the same neighborhood, and another neighbor. Both of us were coming out of school. Both of us got in the middle of a couple of South Sudanese angry kids. And they were beating us until Ajin came and he managed to take us out of that middle of that situation, and he got us home safely. And he was like, I'm sorry about it. People are upset. It's frustrating. And, yeah, sometimes we will just do stupid things when they are upset. It's. It does not necessarily mean anything. And at that point, I did not think of me, and I was just shocked that John Garang has died because that was a political leader that I admired. And I liked how he spoke about Sudan. Like, the Sudan, in my mind is a Sudan he speaks about.
- [43:46]
Interviewer
So let's just go back to.
- [43:47]
Stephen Barden
To.
- [43:48]
Interviewer
You finished your studies at university. I told you this was not going to be a sequential conversation goes backwards and forwards, up and down. So we're now. We're now back at. We're now back at university. You finished your university and now you're able to get politically active if you wanted to. And you're also now having to go and look for work. Right?
- [44:15]
Ithar
So what.
- [44:15]
Interviewer
Tell me what. What you did then. Tell me what you did.
- [44:18]
Ithar
So I remember my story of finishing university started with my last exam. I was in the middle of the exam, and then my professor, who was supervising my final year research and graduation project, came, and he was like, isar, do you have any plans about what you're going to do after uni? You have to do your national service, right? And at the time, we were required to do a national service. For girls it would be civil work, and for guys it would be military, unless they have medical reasons not to. Then it will become civil. And I was like, no, I don't have any plans yet because I'm still taking my final exam. And he was like, okay, you're coming to work with us in the middle of the exam, mind you. And I was laughing. I was like, okay, let's discuss this when I'm done. And we actually did. When I finished my exam, he was still in the. In the hall. And he was like, this is the key to my office. Go and wait for me there. And I did. I waited for him in his office. He came. We discussed that he wanted me to join the university as a research assistant and a teaching assistant. I will be working directly with him again. And he was the head of the department at the time. And I got excited about it because I loved working with him. It's amazing what he does. He does practical work. He's trying to elevate university education curriculum and even equipment. My final year research project was actually developing a device that we later used in our own Labs. So it was interesting what he's doing. And that's a good way to do a national service, working for like a government education entity. That means, it means I won't have good money because never the national year that you will get paid well. But it also means that I get to stay in the university and learn more. And University of Khartoum was full of knowledge, political knowledge, and then of course scientific knowledge. And throughout that year, I was like noticing all the political work and everything that's kept happening in Sudan and in the world. It was like Rabi Al Arab. It was the time where all Arabic countries were standing up to political leaders to suppression and they were talking out countries like were leading revolutions. And I was noticing all of that and looking around, I was taking it in. And I realized that I am not cut out for this world. I like to see the result. I like it to be soon. And I realized also that my knowledge of Sudan does not go beyond five states. And we have 17 of them. And the five states that I know, I know because I had family on them. So that year I, I graduated. I also realized that I. I wanted to know Sudan more. I wanted to explore my own country. And I actually took it upon me. And I started in 2016, I started exploring the country, I started traveling around Sudan and I did that with a startup, a social, a small social enterprise called Shorty, which Shorty is a Nubian word that means soul. Their slogan was, wherever you are, be the soul of the place. And they were talking about the soul of Sudan. It was designed so Sudanese youth would explore their country, its culture, the political diversity and the issues that's happening all over Sudan. And traveling with them, I started to realize. I started to realize how big Sudan is. I started to realize that the issue I faced in my village as a kid is an issue many other villages face. I started to understand that there is a lot to be done. And while politics is a way to do it, that's the approach that everyone has taken in Sudan, from political leaders to rebellion movement. Like we have so many, so many people holding guns to fight the situation. And they did not make any change. It did not result in anything. The only example we have a result is the separation of South Sudan. And that did not end war in both countries. We still had war in like Darfur region, in Blue Nile area, in Jebal and Nuba in Sudan. And in South Sudan it was the same. It did not change. People were not safer.
- [48:43]
Interviewer
So Shorty was, was doing what was it? Was it Making sure that young people were going out and ex and exploring the country. And was there something, I think you told me something about the fact that they, they would stay with families wherever they went. Is that right? Was that the whole point of it?
- [48:58]
Ithar
Exactly, exactly. So yes, that's, that's one part of it. So what they do that you would stay with the family in their own home. That meant if those family needed any type, type of extra income resource, that's an extra income resource. Because this was like an Airbnb in Sudan where all systems in Sudan, like we were sanctioned. So many things did not work in Sudan. Many apps would not work stuff. I don't think. I'm not sure if there was an Airbnb even at that time, but it was something like this. So they were economically enabling families and like in rural communities they were also doing events and events. That means events all over Sudan where you will be invited to attend some sort of a festival in like there was many agricultural festivals that's done in harvesting season in Kurdofan. So they will do an event to bring people from the North, east, west and like take them all to Kurdofan to attend that festival and they will document that experience and they, they will share that experience. In other cities you will find an exhibition showing it. You will find videos and stories and sometimes they will invite someone from that community to come to Khartoum or Madani to speak in an event that represents that. So they were doing their best so that, so that the young Sudanese exploring the country, they live the experience themselves and understand the struggles that people face on a daily life. Because when you live with them, you understand what's happening and they would also. It was about peaceful coexistence and like conserving the land that we live in. So there is an environmental aspect into that as well. And there were so many startups that came out of that community, Shorter Community, like the people who, who lived those experiences, started businesses that's actually supporting the community. Some about Eco west, some about peaceful coexistence, other were like other social experiences and travel around Sudan. It was amazing. It's still amazing. The community is still alive.
- [51:12]
Interviewer
And were you a sort of a paid employee of the, of the, of. Of this organization or. Because I want to know why you left it.
- [51:23]
Ithar
So it was this type of agreement where I get paid when I conduct the revenue generating activity. I started a project with them called Mornings along the Nile and that project aimed to educate people about Nile pollution, how to conserve the Nile, collecting waste from the Nile and so on. And that activity was bad because we would design games on the Nile and like boat trips and stuff like that. So when I do something like this, I will be bit from that community like that, that payment. But other activities that I did was not bad. I was like. I represented them in TV and radio meetings and like stuff like this. And that was never a bad situation because part of my work was supporting them because I love the message and part of it was revenue generating so I can sustain myself. But the reason why I left was I needed more money.
- [52:21]
Interviewer
Yeah, sure, sure, you needed.
- [52:23]
Ithar
So I could no longer, yeah, I need to live. I could no longer dedicate much time to them. So what I did was I still part of the community, which means I take the word out, I share their content, I invite people to their events. When I see an opportunity that they can utilize, I would introduce that. So in a way I support them. But I was no longer a full time dedicated to work with them.
- [52:49]
Interviewer
So did you go then go back to Khartoum, is that right?
- [52:54]
Ithar
No. So Shorty had taught me that while Khartoum University might be a great place and I might be able to do a lot of good work there, it's still not what I want to make because I want to help those in the rural areas. I want to do services in the remote regions that that does not have access. The center is, does have access to many things. Not enough, but there is people who can manage that. So with shortly I realized that I want to go beyond that. And I started doing some trainings, gaining knowledge for myself, workshops. I focused on social entrepreneurship. I focused on environmental advocacy and innovation. And due to that training I started working with local NGOs like Innovative Entrepreneurship Community and Sudanese Environment Conservation Community. I also volunteered with umv. I worked with UNDB on like projects. I started to just look at it in a way that I want to serve the rural community. Because I was the person who grew up in the rural community and I had some knowledge to teach. I worked in stuff like training farmers into how to dehydrate products using solar dryers. Which later turned into a business that I formed a small business called where we sell solar dehydrators to farmers and teach them how to utilize them. And we actually worked with hand workers to actually to produce those dehydrators. So the entire supply chain was local, was training people to do things. And that's a simple knowledge that again through university. And that has been my approach to work ever since. I would want to do small Things that I can see their impact on the ground, like conserving post harvest waste and like economically empowering farmers. And that project is specifically that project later went to helping IDPs. Internally displaced people were part of that. We were trying to create jobs for them, help them settle in the community that now they call home. And I had so much joy doing this. I traveled all over Sudan. I went to small villages and remote areas and I like was, I was filled with joy because people there are so warm, welcoming and generous. You think you're going to help them, but you end up receiving the help yourself.
- [55:29]
Interviewer
Yeah. So basically you actually starting to fulfill that, that vision of yours that said we need to have products, services that actually produce an impact now and on a local level because it actually impacted real human beings rather than the big visions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's almost a political thing starting from the ground up, isn't it? Saying that that's where the change is going to come from the ground.
- [56:05]
Ithar
Exactly, exactly. Because if Sudan had taught me something, that everything I have learned, that original knowledge that we have as tribes, as people of the land, is the fitting things. And when you go to big cities, you find people leaving this behind in the name of we want science. While science proves that my grandmother used to dehydrate fruits using solar energy. All I did was create a device that's just a bit more efficient. I did not change the methods that she pursued because that was the right method. And sometimes people leave that behind, they forget it. They forget that indigenous knowledge and technologies is the base of everything and that we should utilize this more. And they forget that sometimes, just by being with each other and working together and economically empowering each other, we get to make political change. Because some of the villages that I stayed in, they were amazing. The moment they got more money, they were creating solar system to power the city, their village. They were asking me about how to use Facebook and WhatsApp and what is this app? And show me how to utilize this more. And when we worked on that and I was showing this stuff, I could see them in cooperating the system, they understood about banking system and suddenly they were open to actually open a bank account. Some of them were interested in politics and they were asking questions and they were asking why didn't we vote? Why don't we have proper election? Because like fraud in our election has been a thing for so many years. So it's all linked in a way. So you can't just ignore the basics. You can't ignore that. We would need to survive. Yeah. And that's the beginning. I always think that that's where I should work. And this is where we need the most work in Sudan. And the rest will build itself up.
- [58:03]
Interviewer
You found yourself. However, there are two events that I want to bring as we bring this to a close. You found yourself in the middle of the attack on Khartoum by the rsf, who. Who were in fact weren't. They came out of the Janjaweed and were in fact the militia used by the government at one stage to terrorize opposition in Darfur.
- [58:31]
Stephen Barden
But when the RSF then in fact.
- [58:34]
Interviewer
Attacked Khartoum, you were there, weren't you?
- [58:40]
Ithar
Yes. So what happened is my first political act ever was during the 2018 revolution. That was the first time for me to be joining protest and like going out. And then in June 2019, in April, we started the sit in. And that was in front of the general command of the Sudanese armed force. That continued till June 3. And in June 3, the RSF attacked that SIT in. Mind you, it was in front of the Sudanese armed forces general command, which means if you're gonna get in there, you have to have permission from that command. You cannot do such an act on your own. So, yes, it's an RSF attack, but it was definitely backed by the arm by the Sudanese armed forces. And I was there. It was Ramadan, my friend. And I had this habit of bringing suhur, which is the last meal you take prior to the prayers, the fajr prayers, the fairest prayers of the day. And I would bring suhoor every day. It was milk and some snacks, something simple. We would all eat it together, we distribute it, and we'll all eat together, pray together. And then our day would start. And that day everyone was telling us that something might happen. I. I didn't care, honestly, because I was in the sitting from the first day and something was happening. All through the first week, gunfires happened. I saw people getting shot. I got shot at and like managed to avoid it. So I was not scared. But what happened is beyond everything that I have seen before because when the RSF came, they came from all sides. We were trapped in the middle. There was no option of you fleeing. And where I was, I was able to see them. I was able to see some people wearing gray suits and like shooting at people. I was seeing people fleeing and running with blood. And I stood my ground because I also thought, it's not going to be this bad. They're not going to Kill us all. And at the moment, I was standing near a tree, and I heard this. This voice, an airy voice that I could not understand. Like, the air was shifting around me. And I looked back, I had. There was a wall right behind me, and there was a bullet hole right behind me. So I understood the air shifting was that. That was a bullet passing near me. And I realized that that's. That's a sniper. That shot come from above us. I stand under that tree, and we had a discussion, my friend and I, who were at that point, and we decided to separate, to split. Me and some other will try to flee the scene, and they will wait and see what they can do. And I started fleeing. And when I got moving, I realized how bad it is, because I see them setting tents on fire, tents that we were set up as a medical center. I see people fleeing with blood all over their clothes. I see the ground filled with blood. And when I looked at all of that, I didn't know what to do. It was just. It's a survival moment. You have to try to get out of this. And I looked all the directions. There was nowhere to go. There was literally nowhere to go. Like my friends who I left behind, when I looked at their direction, there was forces heading towards them. So I can't go back there. And wherever I look, there was guns. So I entered the building with my friends, and we're running from one building to another, trying to escape that situation. Till finally the RSF forces caught us. And there was nowhere to run. The guy put a gun to my head. I remember a clash, clashing, cough. He put it to my head, and he did the things where you make sure there is bullets, and it makes this tick, tick sound. It made that sound. And he was like, the girls stay. The boy is out. And at that moment, I realized. I realized what. What he meant. I realized, what's going to happen to the girls who stay behind, who are left behind. And I just did the best I could to run out of that situation. I. I did not want to be. I did not want to be there. I did not want to be in the middle of them. And I just made the choice of just running away. And with a gun to my head, the choice was either I'm killed, either I escape. That's my options. I'm not allowing any other option in that situation. And that's what I did. I was running, and there was a guy that I knew, he who came to my. To my direction, held my hand, and we were like. I Was asking him, get me out of here. And the guy was like, let go of her hand. He said, this is my sister. And for a moment, one of the RSF guys got attacked. I don't know how to describe what he felt, but he said, we all have sisters. And he took the clash and pointed towards. Towards the ground. And that was the moment I flee. In that moment, I managed to leave. But I left realizing that every girl I left behind is a risk of rape. That. That. What was it? That was very clear. I didn't need any more explanation. And when I got out of that building, my whole goal was to just leave. And I was running with Ramis, the guy who helped me. We were running until somehow we split up. I don't know how it happened. I later learned that he was. He. He was attacked brutally. He survived, but he. It was bad. I broke some of his bones. It was bad. And they hit me in the head. I got hit in the head. I had blood all over my clothes. I got a concussion due to that. But I managed to reach a hospital. And the doctors there are the one who, like, shielded me from getting more attacked. Because the moment that the doctor found me, I was in the ground with RSF soldiers hitting on me. While one guy. I remember that one RSF guy said, which means we do not hit women. He said that. And I looked at him, and other RSF soldiers went and hit him because he was trying to persuade them not to hit girls. And that's how it ended. And from that day, I realized that there might be people in the system, the rsf, who started this, believing they are making a difference. Maybe some of them want to fight for Sudan, but reality says that route that they followed, there is no coming back from it. What they did to the Sudanese says that that massacre, there is no coming back from it. And it was very clear to me that the route that many, many freedom fighters have chosen to take with carrying a weapon is not going to get us out of any trouble. It's going to cause more. And realistically speaking, now, it is causing more.
- [66:16]
Stephen Barden
Yeah.
- [66:17]
Interviewer
Thank you for telling me that. I know that was painful, and I'm sorry I put you through it again. So you. You've worked in. In many places. You worked in. In Saudi, you worked in Qatar, you went after that, and you worked in the United Arab Emirates, and now you're in Nairobi. Now the issue that. That a lot of people who are displaced who. Who leave their homes is that they're made to feel by the various countries that they go into the various host countries that they go into. They're made to feel that they are.
- [66:59]
Stephen Barden
Not good enough.
- [67:03]
Interviewer
And they're made to feel quite weak. When you go to places like Nairobi and now, and when you were in places like, like Qatar and Saudi, did you feel weakened or did you feel strengthened?
- [67:22]
Ithar
So that's very hard. I did not feel strengthened, although in Saudi, Saudi and Egypt felt a bit like home because I lived in Saudi for a while before with my father and Egypt. And denial, denial always makes you feel at home. And this is something like I try to do here in Nairobi, go to Lake Victoria, try to feel a bit like I'm at home somehow. Why. But what happens when you're displaced, when you're forcibly displaced, that you, you truly don't have an option? It's not a choice, it's a survival. It's a survival situation. So when you go to a country and you find the system is designed to make it hard for you to stay from legal residency visas till permission to work, all of these things, they weaken you because it limits your ability to actually do something. It limits you. This is how I survived in Sudan, by doing things. This is how most of the people who survived war are going through, getting through life by doing work that matters, by sustaining their own lives and helping the lives of saving the lives of others back home. And those countries do not really allow that much of a big office base for that. It's hard. The choice of sustaining your life at this point for many Sudanese has come between applying for a refugee status to just guarantee some legal right to stay in a country outside of your own or trying to stay outside of that system because the system doesn't allow, doesn't really allow you to work. So you need the permission to work. And then having to navigate through other systems of obtaining permission to work, obtaining work, residency. And the countries that I have been to are the countries that had open doors. That means I could obtain the visa, but I couldn't obtain the work permit, the permission. Qatar was a bit easier than others, but it was still problematic. It was still, still hard to do. So my experience throughout all of these countries, I felt weakened. And all of that has just thrown me out of the wheel at. I'm at a point where finding a job is a struggle, maintaining legal status is struggle. And applying refuge for refugee status is even a bigger struggle. Because I will take you back to 2014. The European Union made this Khartoum process agreement with the Horn of Africa countries. And throughout that agreement, they were Supporting those government for better borders control. That was, they say their goal was to stop human traffickers. Again, that's what they say, not what I believe in. What I believe that that was their way to control borders beyond Europe to guarantee they have full control on who comes to their country. Realistically speaking, all the people who took that route of illegal immigration to get to Europe were people under severe issues in their own home countries. Either due to war or political issues, they had to flee and they chose this risky route to get to Europe. So Europe decided that they are going to fund this. And for me, that's a clear message that we don't want more refugees. That's what I understood. That was the word taught me in 2014. And funny enough, one of the entities that utilized that fund and was controlling and patrolling Sudan's border, Swiss, Libya, is the rsf. Now, the reason for me to even ask myself the question, do I want to be a refugee? So when I look at that history, the word refugee has a lot of weight and a negative perspective from my own experience that I don't see it as a protection. I don't. And I ask myself, the question is, what's the value of taking that step? And I don't see a value. I don't see protection. I don't see myself saved. I see more issues. I see myself stuck in a country unable to move, plus don't have the right to work. So all the countries have shown us it's not just one country, it's happening worldwide have shown us that when a journalist said, those are white European refugees with blonde hair and blue eyes, not your north or East African refugees, those are people just like you and me. He meant it and the word means it. So when I look at it, it's just racism will never end. And it's happening until now. It just has different ways. We have found ways to make it look a little bit different, more acceptable to say that the system is designed to help while it's not. Because when you believe that someone worth saving, they were saved. And it was not based on merit or if the country would economically benefit from a person, it was purely based on the fact that you felt more connected to one person towards another. And then comes the Palestinian case, which showed us that even when the people understand the truth and the reality of a situation and they are supporting peace and they are trying to help other people, the government don't care. The system still did not change in favor of the Palestinian people. They did not try to save them. And even the ceasefire that happened yesterday, which I truly hope it continues, is not enough because you have left people with nothing. You have destroyed their homes, they lost their family members, and what, that ceasefire is just enough, and we're fine with that. I hope it continues. I hope more is to happen. I just look at this situation overall and I feel it's not just the countries that I went to had made me feel weakened. It's the entire system, the politics of the world, the decisions that's happening, the UN system that clearly not working, Everything is just. Everything is just making me feel weak. But I am also thankful to stuff like the mutual aid system that we have in Sudan, the emergency support rooms and the community kitchens, because that mutual aid is sustaining lives in Sudan beyond what you can imagine. And whenever I look at them, I feel hope. This is the only thing right now that's giving me a little bit of power, that making me feel like I can do something. If I can just send $1 to them, I would feel like I'm making a difference. So this, compared to the entire system of the world and the politics and the policies of it, is actually balancing the scale.
- [74:32]
Interviewer
You answered my question in the way that I don't think you intended, which is when I said to you, maybe, does it make you feel weakened?
- [74:40]
Stephen Barden
You're certainly. My ears tell me.
- [74:42]
Interviewer
My eyes tell me you're not weakened. You may be frustrated at the things that you can't do, but you are. Your strength is there. And I admire that so much. Thank you for talking to us. I do appreciate it very much. I found your life and your story extraordinary and I'm very grateful that you shared. It's been.
- [75:04]
Ithar
Thank you, Stephen.
- [75:07]
Stephen Barden
My guest today was Ithar from Sudan. If you're interested in more beautifully told stories from and about people split from their homes, have a look at one of my favorite platforms, Waves to Home. That's Waves to home. All1Word.org. And of course, if you'd like to tell your story on my Migrant Odyssey or give me some feedback, and I always love that, don't hesitate to contact me. I'm Stephen Barden. This has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey.
- [75:57]
Ithar
It.