147. Hannah Gadsby Returns: Shake the Tree

Summary

Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out: Episode 147 – Hannah Gadsby Returns: Shake the Tree

Release Date: October 14, 2024

In Episode 147 of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, comedian Hannah Gadsby reunites with host Mike Birbiglia to delve into the creative process behind her latest show, "Shake the Tree." The conversation navigates through Hannah's experiences as a prominent figure in comedy, her neurodiversity, and the intricate balance between her public persona and private self. This episode offers listeners an intimate look into Hannah's artistic evolution, her struggles with anxiety, and her approach to crafting meaningful humor.

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1. Introduction to Hannah Gadsby's Return

Mike Birbiglia opens the episode by reminiscing about Hannah's first appearance on the podcast in 2020, highlighting her as one of his dream guests. He shares updates about her new show, "Woof," currently running at the Abrams Art Center in New York City, and his own ongoing comedy tour.

“Hannah was one of my dream guests. When we launched the podcast, I was like, oh, if we could get Hannah, that would be the coolest thing." ([00:53])

2. Exploring Hannah's New Show: "Shake the Tree"

The discussion shifts to Hannah's latest work, "Shake the Tree," where she collaborates with different comedians to develop original material. Mike praises the show’s production quality and its extension through October 27th, emphasizing its significance in Hannah's career.

“We talk about neurodiversity. Hannah is autistic. We talk about that." ([01:45])

3. Neurodiversity and Understanding Time

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Hannah's experience with autism, particularly her unique perception of time. Hannah explains how this affects her comedic storytelling, often leading to non-linear narratives that challenge traditional comedic structures.

"I don't think clearly. And in sequence or order." ([09:06])

Mike shares his own experiences, drawing parallels between Hannah's and his wife Jenny's struggles with understanding time, fostering a sense of camaraderie between them.

“I think that what you're pointing out... it speaks to this exact thing we're talking about, social media." ([46:44])

4. Public Persona vs. Private Self

Hannah delves into the complexities of maintaining a public persona while managing her private self. She discusses the challenges of grappling with sudden fame following her breakthrough show, "Ninette," and how it has transformed her interactions with diverse audiences.

“I'm trying to understand parasocial relationships... it's just how you have to navigate it." ([22:43])

Hannah expresses her frustration with the lack of nuanced understanding in public discourse, highlighting how it exacerbates anxiety and complicates genuine connections.

“Brains are different and we've been brainwashed otherwise. We're just trying to undo that." ([12:25])

5. Creative Process and Joke Development

The heart of the episode lies in the dynamic exchange between Mike and Hannah as they collaboratively work out original material. They experiment with transforming personal anecdotes into comedic bits, exploring themes like family dynamics and personal growth.

“Shake the tree and make sure maybe it doesn't fall down kind of thing." ([31:07])

Hannah introduces her metaphorical advice to "shake the tree," encouraging exploration and honesty in comedic creation. Together, they refine jokes, blending humor with emotional depth.

“What's the point. Do we deserve closure?" ([21:25])

6. Addressing Grief and Anxiety Through Comedy

Hannah opens up about using her work to process personal trauma and anxiety. She discusses the shift from seeking closure to embracing unresolved emotions, reflecting a more authentic and therapeutic approach to her art.

“This show has become that puzzle. So it started off one thing and now it's like, this is a detective game." ([20:16])

Mike relates by sharing his own methods of dealing with anxiety, further strengthening the connection between the two comedians.

“Shouty, shouty crinkle brain. Because that's poetry if I've ever heard it." ([12:25])

7. Supporting Neurodiversity and Advocacy

Towards the end of the episode, Hannah emphasizes the importance of supporting neurodiverse communities. She highlights the Autistic Self Advocacy Network, advocating for empowerment and accommodation rather than attempting to "cure" autism.

“Nothing about us without us." ([57:16])

Mike echoes Hannah's sentiments, praising her role as a model for the community and encouraging listeners to support related organizations.

“You're a phenomenal role model for that community." ([58:18])

8. Conclusion: Continuing the Creative Dialogue

As the episode wraps up, Mike and Hannah reflect on the collaborative nature of Working It Out, appreciating the opportunity to dissect and develop comedic material together. They reaffirm their commitment to the ongoing creative process, underscoring the show's ethos of continuous growth and exploration.

“Thanks, Hannah. Thanks for coming on. It's such an honor working it out." ([58:36])

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Key Takeaways:

• Non-Linear Storytelling: Hannah's neurodiversity influences her approach to comedy, favoring non-linear narratives that reflect her unique perception of time.

• Public vs. Private Challenges: The episode sheds light on the difficulties of balancing fame with personal well-being, especially for neurodiverse individuals.

• Collaborative Creativity: Mike and Hannah's interaction exemplifies the collaborative spirit of Working It Out, focusing on refining comedic material through dialogue and mutual support.

• Advocacy and Support: Emphasis on supporting neurodiverse communities and promoting inclusive narratives within the entertainment industry.

This episode offers a profound exploration of Hannah Gadsby's artistic journey, providing listeners with valuable insights into the intersection of comedy, neurodiversity, and personal growth. Through candid conversation and collaborative creativity, Mike and Hannah exemplify the essence of Working It Out—unpacking and evolving the craft of comedy alongside exceptional guests.

Transcript

[Hannah Gadsby]

I have a lot of ambitions for my work, like, as a piece, but, like, I don't shoot for the stars. People like me don't shoot for the stars. Like, you know, we belong on the earth. It's fine. Yeah. But so I didn't have my head in that game. And then I'm like, meeting Jennifer Aniston, and she's like, oh, you know, I assume, like, the worst one was the tennis.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Although I did meet Serena Williams coach. I was introduced in a hurry, and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was like trying to think Brad Gilbert, maybe.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I mean, it was so quick. And we're both going. We're not know why we're talking to each other? Because you know what they do? They like, oh, you need to meet this. But it's called networking, I believe. But I do not flourish. And I've just. And I've just gone, oh, you're looking very Tennessee.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, you're looking very Tennessee.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. And he's like, right, Gotta go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Hannah Gadsby. Hannah Gatsby was one of our very first guests on the podcast back in 2020. Hannah was one of my dream guests. When we launched the podcast, I was like, oh, if we could get Hannah, that would be the coolest thing. One of my favorite comics. They were episode five. Now they're back for episode 147. You heard me. This is episode 147. Hannah's new show, Woof, is at the Abrams Art center in New York City, produced by my old friends Mike Lavoy and Carly Briglia, who produced a bunch of my shows. It is fantastic show. I saw it the other night and it just extended through October 27th. We talk about that today. It is a great chat. I want to thank everyone who's been coming out to my shows on the Please Stop the Ride tour. I was just in Philadelphia on Friday. So fun. Next week I'll be in Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Illinois and Indianapolis. I will say all of those theaters, awesome. Minneapolis. I'm at the State Theater, which is where we did our tribute for Mitch Hedberg way back when. And the theaters in Madison and Milwaukee are so nice. I've never played the Riverside in Milwaukee. I've only seen it and I've admired it. Champagne is a beautiful theater. Indianapolis is Clues hall, which is sold out and is awesome. All of that is on burbigs.com and then I'm going to go to Ann Arbor. Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, Charleston, South Carolina, in Ann Arbor. Of course, I will get A Zingerman sandwich, by the way, if you didn't listen, Last week I did a Q and A where I answered listener questions, and one of them was favorite sandwich. I said Zengerman's in Ann Arbor. Controversial. Take a lot of letters. A lot of anger out there, but I said it. And actually, to be honest with you, when I go to Detroit, I'm going to load up on some pizza in Detroit, because Detroit pizza, it is not as well known as Connecticut or New York pizza, but it is a really, really strong pizza they make in Detroit. Again, I'm awaiting the letters. I'm awaiting the emails. Also, there's going to be an additional New York announcement in one week from today. We have a super huge guest. One week from today, another super huge guest. There's gonna be New York City announcement one week. Mark your calendars. Join the mailing list. I love this episode with Hannah Gadsby. We talk about the lasting effects of Hannah's show, Ninette, and what Hannah's experience of sort of the cultural phenomenon of the show that was. I actually saw. I saw that show in its original form. I think it was in 2018 in New York City when it was at the Soho Theater, just in a little theater downtown. And then it became like this cultural phenomenon. And Hannah has really sort of thought about that a lot. They talk about it a lot in the new show. We talk about a lot today. We talk about neurodiversity. Hannah is autistic. We talk about that. We talk about how their new show started with the idea of Hannah writing letters to Barbra Streisand. That's right. Writing letters to Barbra Streisand. Which is not something that is mentioned in the actual show. We have a great working it out section. Hannah is phenomenal at working out jokes. This is a blast. This episode is. We edit every episode. This one is edited minimally because I just thought it was just one of my favorite episodes we've done in so long. Enjoy my chat with the great Hannah Gadsby. Working it. Your show last night was fantastic. Thanks for having me.

[Hannah Gadsby]

My absolute pleasure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

At the last second, I texted your wife, Jenny, and was like, wait, you have us down, right? For tickets? Like, how? She was like, yeah, but I did get nervous. Do you ever have that where you're like, going to a thing, all of a sudden you're like, wait, am I supposed to go? Do people know I'm going to. Do I have tickets for the thing?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, my. When don't. I didn't bring my Wallet on tour.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So I remembered a small carved aardvark, but not my wallet. So I'm. Yes. I'm never.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You brought somebody tell me this. You brought a small carved aardvark. Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. It's just really nice to hold in my hand and I've sort of been clutching it for about five or six years now. It's good, mate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where'd you get it?

[Hannah Gadsby]

My. My. My wife. My wife. Yeah. Jenny Jenno, Director, producer. Wallet holder, passport holder. I might be a hostage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a good time that remind. But what you're describing is reminding me of my wife Jenny. Also different spelling. J, E, N, N, Y. Yours. Your wife says J, E, N, N, E, Y. Which, by the way, AI autocorrect in my phone turns my texting my wife into texting your wife. Oh, yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Gosh, that's a loop, isn't it? Yeah. I wonder. I wonder, because I never text my wife.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because your wife's in my. What I mean is, your wife's number is in my phone, which makes this sound more suspicious than it is.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You just made it sound more suspicious than it is. I assumed her number was in your phone and then you just did. And now I'm like, what's happening?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I. Partly. Her number's in my phone because you and I have been in touch for about a decade, but you are.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't touch, do I?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you're kind of a non. What's the term non for non tech?

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's pretty good. Maybe it's a contact.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, a contact.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't know what that means. Okay, let's watch.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the word we're looking for, though? What's the word we're looking for?

[Hannah Gadsby]

A mole.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, responsive. Oh, yeah. Your wife is chiming in. She's giving some things that were actually not asked for, which are uncommunicative and unresponsive, which are, I think, not the word for non tech, but tells us.

[Hannah Gadsby]

A lot she has to do with so much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is hilarious. The dynamic that. The dynamic that your wife Jenny is revealing is so similar to my wife in my dynamic. It's a. But the non tech word is phobe. Jenny, you know this word?

[Hannah Gadsby]

A Luddite.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Luddite. Thank you very much.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Sorry, what? I'm a Luddite.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Luddite. You're a Luddite?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, no, no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're not averse to technology?

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm averse to contact.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow. But it's interesting because I met you. I want to say when you did Nanette at Soho was 2018ish. Does that ring a bell? So 2018, which is, I think when you met your wife, Jenny.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Correct.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, correct.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I think I don't understand time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's my wife also, by the way, always claims to not understand time. I think not understanding time is a choice.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But I, like, I. It just isn't. And it's been the bane of my whole entire existence. Wow. Which is on infinite loop in my head. All I can remember is 8:23 and I don't know why.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's talk about that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

My wife could probably chime in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

8:23. What's 8:23?

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's the time that I was setting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The alarm in the morning a couple of weeks ago. Okay, okay. Your wife just chimed in that 8:23 is the time she set the alarm to a few weeks ago. And you remember that?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, look, what I'm trying to do with this new show of mine is to explain that, you know, I don't think clearly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And in sequence of order. And I think there's something about my previous work because I work so hard on it and do lovely structures that I think people assume that I'm a. I'm a top notch communicator. And in fact what I do on stage is a repair of my inability to connect thoughts with speech and time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So my wife would say that's precisely.

[Hannah Gadsby]

What her poetry is like, are we married or something?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know what's happening. I know there's some kind of four person marriage that is on the horizon.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, sounds a bit like, you know, a poly cube. It is not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is not. It's not. But yeah, no, she has almost the exact same thing. She's like, here's what she'll say sometimes when we're late for God knows what. She'll just go, well, that's not who you married. Oh, you married someone who's not on time and doesn't understand time.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, and it is really hard for you to understand not understanding time, I assume.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I do find that challenging.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have a joke, you know, from years ago from thank God for Jokes that I posted on Instagram. And it was. What lay people don't understand about us on time people is that we hate you. And the reason we hate you is it's so easy to be on time. You just have to be early. And early lasts for hours and on time just lacks a second. And then you're late forever. I posted on Instagram, I receive a Lot of very angry people.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Not immediately, though, I bet.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well done.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I bet you this is just tip of the cap.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tip of the cap. Not immediately. Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't understand time, but I have timing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Beautiful. By the way. What the hell's that? What's up with time, by the way? Put that in your show.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Which bit? I've forgotten.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't understand time, but I have time. Ing. Is that in your show?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, no, that's just a little bit of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, that's beautiful. I mean, the. And my wife would say, you know, my wife Jenny would say the same thing. Doesn't understand time, understands timing.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Is this a therapy session?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's not. Okay. It's not. Not a therapy session. I'll say that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. Great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But, yeah, it's interesting. So I posted that bit about being on time, being late, and you get a lot of neurodivergent people, which you are.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm not a people. Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which you are of. You are of technically. And you talk about it in the show and people saying, I don't understand time similar to what you're saying. And then a lot of people angry at them for saying, I don't understand time. And it is a argument online that's spun out of control. I'm talking thousands of people arguing with people.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's just such an unnecessary argument.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I think it all boils down to brains are different and we've been brainwashed otherwise. And we're just trying to undo that. And we're undoing it. Trying to undo it, whilst also being exposed in such a deluge to so many different ways of thinking, being very arrogant that their way of thinking is correct. So it's just a lot of shouty, shouty crinkle brain on the Internet, which has been built on a binary. So there's no actual chance for nuance. It's just zeros and ones, zeros and ones.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just write down this phrase, shouty, shouty crinkle brain. Because that's poetry if I've ever heard it. Is that a phrase you've said?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Is your wife a poet also?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Shouty, shouty crinkle brain. Is that a phrase you've said or is that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I say chatty, chatty crinkle brain to describe anxiety.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I like that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And when people are eating crisps in the theatre, I call that chatty, chatty crinkle bag. And I don't love that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is so related to raising our daughter who's.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Look, I haven't aged. I haven't aged since then. If we're. Do you know when people say, oh, they're an old soul.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right? Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Not me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This is my first go round. In fact, when I hear people say that, I go, well, they must be middle aged souls, right? To at least know that other people have been around before. Right. Every day's a new day. This is fresh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Or I'm such an old soul, but I missed a few shifts, so I'm too. You know, I missed a few shifts cause I don't understand time and all of a sudden it's a millennia and I'm like, what happens? It's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I talk about this all the time when people can relate to it. Because I'm sure that you find. Because I relate to what you're saying. Cause I'm my wife a thousand percent.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sorry, we're not married, technically.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, no, I thought you were just projecting. I'm sorry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I relate to the thing you're saying of waking up and it feeling like a new day.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So my.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is a shocking experience all the time. And I always compare it to the film Memento. Do you ever see the film Memento?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So it's. The character wakes up every day. Yes, exactly.

[Hannah Gadsby]

My show's about whales.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait, is that a whale tattoo?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, it's a stamp. I just tested it last time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh my gosh. Your show has a ton of beautiful jokes and story about whales.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. So if you're going to talk about whales, it's important for there to be a ton.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you writing all of your jokes for my daughter?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, but there's a childish quality to me. And I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I feel like that sort of gets lost in the conversation. Because of Nanette's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because of Nanette. You get people. You know, this is a classic thing. Ninette is a beautiful show. It's a masterpiece, in my opinion. And people. I would say this is a very common thing in culture. A lot of people don't even watch it. Or millions and millions of people watch. Maybe tens of millions, maybe 100 million people watch it. But then. And you and I were talking about this a little bit after your show last night. There's a whole group of people, probably, probably a majority of people who maybe won't see it. And then they hear about it, they shrink it down into Hannah Gadsby's comedy is like blank. And then they have an opinion about it. And so that's. And then you, your, your perception, your image is in this opinion of you, which is like you're a storyteller. You talk about you do comedy, but you also do really hard stuff. You know, that's challenging and et cetera. And meanwhile, the thing that doesn't get that gets lost in translation, but is in your new show is like, you're silly. And I know you. I've known you since I saw your show almost a decade ago. I just know you're silly. You're funny. You make jokes like the whale joke you just made about, you gotta have a ton of them.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I guess what it is, is effectively, you know, masking. You know, my voice I had on stage was masking. And so I used to try very hard to be understood. And then that was really the critical mass of that, where it's just like, I've had enough. I don't care what you think. Boom. But it was more of, like, you know, I was a quiet person then I just kicked off at a family reunion. Everyone's just like, whoa, you got a bit of bite. We thought you were placid. And now I'm just like, yeah, I am placid. I'm sorry, that was a bit unregulated, right? You know, it was an unregulated potato, as we say, and. Cause I was going, you know, it was about trauma. And so I was in trauma. Like, it wasn't made up, you know, it sort of has, you know, and that's what I'm doing with this work also. It's like I use my work to try and just make sense of myself and escape discomfort. And so that was like, I'm escaping, you know, trauma in this sort of, you know, situation. That was that situation and time, and now I'm doing something else. But it's a very different kind of thing that I'm trying to escape, which is anxiety. So the show is necessarily different, and every one of my shows is different. But no one's quite clocked that because they keep sort of going back and going, well, it's not Nanette, right? No shit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No shit.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I mean, why would I keep doing that? It's not like MeToo movement worked. It's not like a hashtag was any actual. You know, equal to actual structures of power. So, you know, you gotta back down and just go, I'll just talk about whales now for safety. That's partly a joke, but also partly. I'm feeling very fatalistic at the moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you unpack that a little?

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm feeling very.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So in other words, you just feel like things are going worse and then after that, worse?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, you, like, you were Saying on stage, last on your show, you beautifully put it, that you feel anxiety and you're right, essentially.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. And I think anxiety makes it worse. And I think that we're just exposed to everyone's anxiety. And if anxiety does anything, it builds. It's like a fire.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And so, you know, but it's a fire that's sort of spreading in ways that we don't understand on the Internet. It's decontextualized so you don't know how your voice reverberates. And there's no controls over that because it's profit first. So we've just built this world where it's profit first. And to try and undo that, you undo people's lives. Because we depend on capitalism, which is fine. That's the system. But the system's not great for our mental health. And so we're caught in this circle. So that's. I feel like it's rational, but I'm not sure what you can do about it. Like, I'm not, you know, not an engineer. Just like Elon Musk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Do you ever have, like, you and I have this thing in common, which is we do non linear shows.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yes. But it's interesting that your show, given that you understand time, maybe mine are non linear. Cause this is just a facet of my existence. But meanwhile, maybe I thought I was doing linear shows and now I just find out I haven't been, I'm guessing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In the process of, you know, touring your shows and you know, the current one is woof. You have to. You can go to the extreme of non linear and have it make sense. But certain audiences are probably like, we're not following this. Like, do you have that along the way where you have to calibrate the nonlinear aspects to get it to a point where an audience can get it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This show has not been the same any night. Oh, I am desperate to make sense of this show. I feel like I just found it last night.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I rewrote it again last night after I got home. It's just been a show that's been escaping me. Usually I have a sense of the shape of a show very early on. And usually how I attack a show is like two questions. What shape do I want the show? And that's informed of what feeling do I want the audience to leave with.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I've been working off that this whole time. But I just haven't been able to let go of material that doesn't make sense in the show. And that's not A problem I've ever had. There's several reasons for that, but one of the reasons is that I did do some run ups in clubs because I thought I should, you know, see if I can still do that. And it's just a different art form to do short sets.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But I kind of enjoyed the rhythm of that and the punchiness of that. So the top half of my show is stacked with that kind of rhythm. And then I've tried to make it work and, you know, understand why I can't let go of that. And the show has become. Has become that puzzle. So it started off one thing and now it's like, this is a detective game. And so I'm bringing the audience into that. Like, I'm not sure what I'm doing. And, you know, so it's been a real struggle. So now basically what I've understood is, for the show is that every show I've written before that is like, I get closure and I tie things up into a neat little point. And originally I was like, but I don't see the point. Do we deserve a point? Do we deserve closure?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And then I realize, I think the shape of this show is that what I is there is no closure. And that's kind of reflective of like, you know, maybe it's unhealthy to try and have closure. And letting go is a good idea, but letting go is not about closure. It's about, there is no closure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I've just shifted the show where it's just like, oh, how do I want to feel at the end of this show? And that's clicked into place. Like I've been looking after. How do I want the audiences to feel? And so at the end of this show, I'm just like, this is how I want to feel.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And your takeaway from last night was you want to feel that there is.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No closure, but also like that, you know, that's not the end of the world.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This show began.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

With me writing letters to Barbra Streisand.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. Are you serious?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. That's. How much this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

For the listeners. For the listeners. There's no discussion of this in the show.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I've only just lost the last reference.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What you wrote, did you write that? Did you send the letters?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, I didn't, but it was an exercise because I obviously going through some sort of crisis.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I was trying to, you know, understand parasocial relationships.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know, because like I said, the Nanette was such a. Like a big, you Know, rupture in my life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It was a cultural phenomenon.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But, you know, just for me, personally, because I understood my audience as people I performed in front of in festivals and built up slowly over years. So when I performed the Net live up until New York, I was talking to mostly people who at least understood who I was and where I was, you know, and. And then all of a sudden, I'm kind of just everywhere, and I just can't wrap my brain around who I'm talking to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I think the point is you just can't. But that's not how.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of course you can. Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's how my mind works. It's like, that maybe you can. And then I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Because tens of millions of people, and.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Then my mind melts.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, sure.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't know how to talk to them because I think, you know, like. But I know that's like, the autism just being magnified.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I'm. And so I was trying to understand that, because it's not sustainable to think like that. And I'm like, I need to. And so I was like, well, how about if I enter into a public, parasocial relationship with Barbra Streisand?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good solution.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Like, then it goes, you know, so it was. It was really fun, but it was unsustainable.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think either way, regardless of whether you put that in the show, you should do it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This is consistent feedback. I think I will. I might take time next year and do that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, come on. It's a great idea.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Thank you. I have them all the time. But what was the goal?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the goal? Because. Because Barbra Streisand is so famous, having kind of a public discourse is kind of being. It's a metaphor for the whole thing.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Well, because, yeah, her fame is stratospheric.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And parasocial in the extreme.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. And, you know, and I'm sort of in this little no man's land of, you know, neither here nor there, and I can't quite commit to anything. And I just thought it'd be interesting to, you know, how do, like, people watching me have some sort of parasocial relationship with me and watching me struggle with, you know, talking out loud, the parasocial complexities and weirdness of it, like, I think sort of would open up, like, them to the questions I'm having about them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know, without directly going, what's going on? What do you want from me? As soon as Nanette came out, I pretty much stopped going on social media. I couldn't. All you need to know about a rushing river is that it's rushing and it's dangerous to get in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know, so, I mean, I don't think that's great for my career.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Because you just. That's how you have to navigate it. That's the game. And I can't play the game, which is fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're more than fine.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm fine. No, I am. But I kind of want to talk about that sort of stuff in that, you know, way that. Because I think so many people are experiencing it, like public, private Persona, private figure, and trying to separate the two. But I have an art form to lean on for that. Most people just being themselves and branding humans has never gone well for the humans. Make a list of how many comedians you know who've done television shows they've named after themselves.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And stayed a good, good guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Let's put that on a billboard. Support for Working it Out comes from Aura Frames. Doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos. I relate to this completely. Are stuck on your camera roll or on your laptop. Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share them and enjoy them with family and friends? That's where Aura comes in. We have one in the studio. I have one in my apartment. I put a whole bunch of photos in it, and it's almost like a playlist, like a musical playlist, except with photos, and they just. They're on rotation. And it's a great gift. It's a perfect thing. I don't know about you, but I have a lot of people in my life. I don't know what the heck to get them for anything ever. And it's the holiday season, and this is a perfect thing that maybe people wouldn't buy for themselves, but if you gave it to them, I think they would be thrilled. It's just one of those perfect gift items. Save on that perfect gift item by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 bucks off Aura's bestselling Carver Mat frames by using promo code WIO. That's for working it out. WIO at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code WIO. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. Support for Working it Out comes from Helix. We love Helix. These are great mattresses. Whenever I'm in mine, it feels like a hug. It feels like the right temperature. It feels Special like it just feels different from when I'm out traveling and I'm in like a hotel bed or whatever. When I'm traveling it just feels like I'm in a primo mattress. By the way, they have so many sleep related items. Lately I've been using the weighted blanket quite a bit and so nice for the winter. It's just the beginning of winter, but I'm really enjoying it. We are announcing a very Special offer today. 27% off site wide plus 2 free dream pillows with any mattress purchase, free bedding bundle, two dream pillows, sheet set and mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order. Just go to helix sleep.com brebig this is. We do a thing called the slow round. What's the best piece of advice that someone's given you that you used?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Like, I always change my mind. I have to change my mind.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Because sometimes I make my mind up in a context where it works and then it's like that advice is no longer relevant. Jenny. Oh, this is. And who gave me that advice? Jenny? Who gave me that advice? You sure say it a lot. The thing is like, didn't I make up this advice?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your consult, by the way, for the listeners. You're consulting your wife in the room right now and it turns out it's advice that you gave and you apparently.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Say, which I feel like my whole life is built around the puzzle of my life is like, this is unsustainable. How can I solve this?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Our existence as people or you?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, my existence. I do have autism and it is really hard and I have a lot of sensory situations that are just really overwhelming. And I'm doing this job which is like, you know, you know, I really enjoy doing, I really enjoy the thinking of it. But it's a balance between, you know, finding, you know, not getting overwhelmed and overstimulated because that then gets on a bad cycle anyway. So this is a lot of our life. And I do this thing where I'm like, oh, here's an idea I'm having. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I have an idea and I'm just surrounded by so many capable people and they're like, we've made this idea work. And I'm like, oh good God, I've moved on. So then, so I like, you know, I can't keep doing this to people because people work and people have time, you know, they spend time to make things. And I'm like, so we shake the tree on it. That's what I decided. I'll Just shake it. So when I say I have this idea, let's shake the tree on it. Best advice I ever got that I made up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great advice. And I relate to it entirely because I'm constantly spouting out ridiculous ideas that days later I realize are completely ridiculous. I just want to understand the exact analogy. When you say shake the tree, do you mean. What's the metaphor? Exactly. I just don't know enough about trees.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I just like trees. What's wrong with you?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Shake the tree.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Talk to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Shake the tree and make sure maybe it doesn't fall down kind of thing.

[Hannah Gadsby]

If things fall out of a tree. So you shake the tree and you see what's solid and what space.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There you go.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's great.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's also very dangerous. I shake in the tree for things to fall out. That's gonna fall on your head. This rarely happens unless you use a thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This rarely happens on the show. I'm stealing it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

What's that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm gonna say to my wife all the time. Let's shake the tree on that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a great point. It also speaks to this exact thing we're talking about.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I should try to self help.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's also speaking to this exact thing we're talking about social media. Not enough Shaking the tree.

[Hannah Gadsby]

First thoughts. Hot take.

[Mike Birbiglia]

First thought. Hot take. And it's madness. This is. There's no. There's no peace in it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's a. An electrical pulse.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. No, it's. But shake the tree. Yeah. See how. See, See if it stays up. See what falls out.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Give it a few days.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So you say that to yourself.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Because I'm so used to working alone completely. And, like, it has been an extreme pivot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And then so now I'm like, slowly understanding how to navigate this new world because it is huge change.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I'm autistic and I don't deal well with change.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And so I'm struggling to process it because I struggle to process things. And then the world had a pandemic and a situation, and things just have not stopped unraveling for the world. The world is going through something also.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So I'm finding myself, like, you know, just unsteady on a. On a macro, on a micro level.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And sitting in this, like, point of, like, we're all grappling with, you know, concepts of public and private Persona and the ideas of context without time and control and the splintering of ourselves into the ether.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So Like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, that makes sense. I mean, even, like, there was an SNL impression of you. That's how big your fame is, that this pop platform, comedy platform assumes that the people watching will know this comedian. Not just this comedian, but an impression of this comedian.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, it's interesting. The SNL thing is interesting. Cause it is. Like, it's not just that, but it's also on snl, isn't it? Like, it's, you know, like, I haven't hosted snl.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Do you know what I mean? So there's like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think it's better, though.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, I don't mind.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I actually think it's better than hosting snl. You don't even have to show off.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you like it?

[Hannah Gadsby]

I didn't like the cropped pants that it's like, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. There's something about that level of fame that. That must be disorienting to see that someone. You're that famous, that someone could do an impression of you on snl.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, Like, a lot of that's disorientating. And famous people know me. That's always odd because it was just a moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And particularly because I didn't have my head in that game. So I'm meeting all sorts of people. I'm just like, I don't know who.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It wasn't the end game.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. You just did a show you're passionate about and then it exploded.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't like to do things where there's a. There's a. A significant chance I'll fail. Like, I keep my, you know, my. I have a lot of ambitions for my work. Like, as a piece.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But, like, I don't shoot for the stars. People like me don't shoot for the stars. Like, you know, we belong on the earth. It's fine.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But so I didn't have my head in that game. You know, I wasn't going, oh, this person. Like, you know, if I took any notice of, you know, film and tv, it was like I'd have a deep dive and watch one thing. Right. And just so I know they're like. And then I'm like, meeting Jennifer Aniston, and she's like, oh, you know, I assume, like, the worst one was the tennis.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tennis star.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No. Although I did meet Serena Williams, coach.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I was introduced in a hurry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it was like, trying to think Brad Gilbert, maybe.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I mean, it was so quick. And we're both going. We don't know why we're talking to each other because, you know, what they do, they're like, oh, you need to meet this. But it's called network, I believe. But I do not flourish. And I've just. And I've just gone, oh, you're looking very Tennessee.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Non communicative. That's what I said, is what I've heard that you are.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I tried, though, from your wife. I tried. I said, you're looking very Tennessee.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I said, oh, you're looking very Tennessee.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. And he's like, right, gotta go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But then, Drew, we're watching it when we're in Billie Jean King's box, which is a brag everyone should enjoy. But it was fine. It was all a bit martial. It was fun. I was watching the tennis. It was. It was a lovely time. A lot of. A lot of information, like a lot of visualization.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is a lot of visual symbolization. Yes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know, and there was. They did that thing where they like, oh, look, there's a famous person in the crowd.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, they did that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It was Neil Sudakis. And they just pumped out. It's Calendar Girl, which is a very old reference. I listen to 50s music. I'm not meant to be.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But that was the song they played.

[Hannah Gadsby]

For you, not for me. It was Neil Sudakis.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, okay. That's. Who's in the.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, no, no. Just in the crowd. And it goes up and then there's Anna Wintour. And then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, Anna Wintour.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know, they're just going, let's spot all the famous people. The story is not going where you think it is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So you can just rest assured they don't put it on there and go, no, that's not what's happening. What happens is I've forgotten her name. Anna Kendrick.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Anna Kendrick goes up and I'm just like. I knew who Anna Wintour was. And Neil Sudakis, which is not the same as Ted Lasso.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Hannah Gadsby]

He's a singer from the 50s, I believe.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This is my world. Right. This is my cultural reference. Anna Kendrick comes on. No idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No idea who. And it's just like, I miss the Pitch Perfect films.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. And I missed up in the Air.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. All of the things. All of the things. I missed them. Right. Whatever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

My bad. But so I Googled, I'm like, oh, oh, okay. Cause I knew I understood the concept of Pitch Perfect. It's good singing and it has Rebels Rebel Wilson in it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, Right. Yeah, Right. Patriots.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. I'm putting. I'm putting some pieces together. Okay. I can contextualize her. I'm like, oh, she's been in what? I closed my phone and called Ogres for a while, but it's trolls. So, like, okay, so this is where we're going. I'm overstimulated. Bear with me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And then when we go, we're leaving. And then I said to Jenny, as we're waiting for a car to fix up, I said. I said, hey, Jenno. Like, there's that girl from Ogres.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's a girl from Ogres.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Right. You. Yeah. That is not. Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're hot on the trail.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm so sorry, Anna.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're hot on the trail of the ogres casts. Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And. And of course, I was with a publicist who does this for a living. And she's like, you want to meet? And I'm like. Before I could say no, she's cross. She's like, hannah Gatsby here would like to meet you. And I'm like. And Anna Kendrick turns around and goes, shut the front door. Oh, my God. So she's a fan of me, and I'm like, ogres.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ogres, right.

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's a lot of dissonance right there. Because I've since found out, like, oh, wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Major, major star.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. And. Yeah. Excellent talent. Like, wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But that's not where I was at. And so we had this amazing. And of course, Britney Snow was there also. Who I am.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Brilliant. Also.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Also understand is from.

[Mike Birbiglia]

From Fitch. Perfect.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yes, I do. I have not seen. Seen the films as yet, but I'm well familiar with the idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't think she was in Ogress, though.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think anyone was. I made up a genre anyway, so. This is not a genre. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Anyway, so there's this photo that exists of me standing between these two, like little superstars. And they're just put together. They know how to do it. And you can tell, like, in the image, they're just like, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, ooh, they're picture.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They have the picture face.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm just like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm so much bigger.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm just really.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You put your arms up in the air like a scarecrow.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. What do arms do? Like, I'm like a. I'm like a. Oh, my gosh. I feel like Forrest Gump of the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm sure you do. Yeah. I relate to that so much, and it's. Anyway, I'm gonna Get to the next slow round question. This one took 15 minutes. The slow round question.

[Hannah Gadsby]

We should have shaken the tree on it earlier.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right. What is a time in your life when you remember feeling pure joy?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Every day's a new day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Surely I've had it recently. Oh, I found a frog.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That'S very cool.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It wasn't even a real one. Do you have the picture? Yeah, you can show the picture. I don't know whether we'll just get Mike's reaction to my face with joy on it. I don't think anyone's really met it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a fake frog.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's a fake frog. But that is pure joy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You are very happy. We're okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'm in a truck stop in New Jersey.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And some poor kid left a frog on the table. Probably their favorite toy. They're probably really sad about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I found him and I loved him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow. You still have him?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yep. I broke his leg.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Jeez.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I didn't mean to. It's not a hostage situation.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is there a song that makes you cry? No.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't get choked up at music.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't cry that much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You don't cry that much?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's interesting.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I have a lot of feelings that don't get to a fine point.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's interesting in relation to your shows because you talk. I don't want to give anything away, but you talk about your dad and the stuff about your dad I find very emotional. Like when you perform it. Do you get emotional?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, I think my grief's come out as anxiety. Oh, that's interesting at this point. I did cry once, but that was because I had laser eye surgery.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. Support for working it out comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile offers wireless for $15 a month with the purchase of a three month plan. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan. Bring your own phone number along with all of your existing contacts. Mint Mobile also offers plans for kids and seniors. Find out how easy it is to switch to Mint mobile and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com burbigs mintmobile.com Burbigs cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month. At mintmobile.com burbigs there is a $45 upfront payment required. Equivalent to 15 bucks a month. This is for new customers only on the first three months. Plan speeds are slower above 40 gigabytes on the unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See mintmobile.com for details. So I try to work out material on the show, and if you have material that's sort of half baked or kind of half stories or things, we can throw it out. But I wanted to. I'm just working on stuff having to do with my dad. It's interesting. You and I are dealing with a little bit different stuff with our dad, but. But thematically similar. And I've been working on this stuff on my tour lately that's kind of half baked. Things about my dad, about how he would. When I was a kid, he'd fly off the handle about things and then he would solve them and then he'd have other problems and he'd be like, where's the goddamn watermelon? He was like, I found the watermelon. And be like, where's the goddamn knife? I found the. He's like. He's still yelling about the solution. At a certain point, I'm like, I think this isn't about watermelon. I think it's just anger that wants to manifest. And I just. I threw that out this week on stage. And it's pretty good, but it's like, I don't know. I want to throw it up to discuss.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Sounds like he's overwhelmed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Sounds like he's an unregulated potato there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. An unregulated potato, I think is an accurate way to describe it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. It is a really frustrating place to be unable to look after yourself. Like, find a knife and a melon in a kitchen. I assume, like, we weren't in his shed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, no.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Like, these things are probably gonna be there. So I feel like that's like, that's an unregulation that's happening there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think you're right.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But also, the running commentary always amuses me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. That's like Jenny describes my. Jenny describes me as the narrator of our marriage who nobody asks.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, I'm your dad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. My dad was like that too. Yeah. No, and maybe that's a tie in the show.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. You're just like, I don't. I don't want to be like a basic narrator like my dad. I'm going to be really cool. He's like, where's the knife? Where's the melon? I got him. Like, that's not a story. Is it. You can't sell tickets to that. Yes, that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think you're absolutely right. I think that what you're pointing out I'm going to definitely try in the show.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Please do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The thing that I'm trying to figure out in my head in real time.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Is, do you like your dad?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I do love my. I love my dad.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's a little joke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've complained feelings about him, but I think the thing I'm trying to figure out is how do I tie those two things together thematically in a way that it's not telling the audience that I'm tying them so directly together.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You shake the tree on it, and if a melon falls out, I stab it. I don't know that. You don't necessarily. I think audiences like it when you go, hey.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Like, I don't think people. I think sometimes hiding something like that is hiding a little bit of joy that people enjoy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's really interesting. Yeah. Because I'm imagining a part of the show where I talk about being the narrator of our marriage and nobody asked for it. And then potentially I could pivot into. My dad was like that when I was a kid. He'd have the solution and he'd, blah, blah, blah. You know, he'd go, this.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Do you zoom out and then narrate the show?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Do you do crowd work and then narrate the crowd?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. I love that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's always a fun zoom out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. This is a perfect example of working it out. Sometimes people will say to me, you don't work out enough on your show. And I go, well, you know, sometimes it has to do with the guests, how interested they are in working ideas out. And that's one of the things I love about you. You do love talking about process and kind of breaking things apart.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. It's much nicer way to spend your time than stabbing melons.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, and I think the thing that you're describing, which is his. That he was a live wire, so to speak. I think part of it has to do with control because he'd be at work as a doctor, you know, and he'd say, scalpel. And someone hand him a scalpel.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This is my life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Shake the tree on it. Do I need a scalpel?

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then he'd come home and he goes, where's the rake? And I'd be like, I'm watching the Celtics, you know? And he'd be like, where's that goddamn rake.

[Hannah Gadsby]

You know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

And, like, Larry Bird just hit a three pointer. You know, he's like, this is literally spilled tea. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed doing this bit, which I cannot replicate.

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's alarming for a doctor.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I know, but I. But.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But it must be high stress.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Supposedly at work, very calm.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Well, you'd have to be. But what you got is, like a day of calm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And then you come home and you want a rake.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know you want a rake.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This is. This is just. I mean, it's just the world men built.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, do you think that's a man thing?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, I think it's the world men built.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's like, where, you know, there used to be men, but it can be anyone these days. It's just given everything and, like, you're the guy, and we're gonna clear everything, and you don't have to regulate your emotions at all. We're gonna make sure that you don't have to do that. And then they don't, and they swan through life, and then their first little hiccup, they lose their minds.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I think you're absolutely right.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So we just need to make everyone's life who has a nice. A little bit harder so we can make everyone's life a little bit easier.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't think women need to be paid equal to men in sport. I think men in sport need to be paid a little bit less.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a great job. Have you done that as a joke?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, come on. You gotta use that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Very busy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know you're busy, but. But come on. You're one of these people I always say this about. Mulaney I've known for years and years. One of these people. You and John, a handful of other people. Someone should be chasing you with a notebook every day and just writing down stuff you say. The thing you just said is fully formed. Joke should be on stage. You just whip it off, and then you're like, is that joke? No. Thing. I thought like that. Melanie's like that, too. I mean, this is absurd. That's not a joke.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I've forgotten what it was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's just about women. Women shouldn't be paid more. Men should be paid less. It's a great joke.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Is it a joke or is it. Yes, it is. Yeah, but it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's. It's. It's a truism. That. It's a truism.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is a. I don't think we're.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Allowed any More jokes in this show. All right, we'll keep it. I'll get one of these. I'll get one of these.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe you could help me fix this, because this is a joke I think is always. I always think is funny as an idea. I've done it in front of an audience. Nothing.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Okay. Classic.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My dad always came to my soccer games, but it wasn't a great fit because I wasn't good at soccer. So I felt like I wasn't properly showcased. And he'd always say this phrase. He goes, it doesn't matter if you win. It only matters if you try. But he always seemed to enjoy it most when I was winning, and he never seemed to notice when I was trying. And I think it just makes people sad.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, do you want a joke there, maybe? Cause that doesn't have the rhythm of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A joke that's interesting. So you just think it's. It could. It could fit in the show, but maybe just live in it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. Like, I think you just. What you're saying there is, like, you have complicated feelings.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And that's a good. And, like, I think it's perfectly acceptable for a joke about soccer not to have a goal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Nice score.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Thanks. How about that? They don't laugh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One nil.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's a joke about soccer. Sometimes there's no something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I hear what you're saying, though. You're saying it's an interesting piece of emotion, but it doesn't necessarily have to be funny.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Did he notice when you tried and you won or you tried? He just didn't notice when you tried because he's too busy noticing that you lost?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think so. Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It's because he wants to know where things are all the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. It doesn't fit.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Where's the rake? Where's the melon? Where's the goal?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Like, he's very goal orientated.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Ooh, I like that.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Goal orientated. A little soccer joke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That seems really nice. I'm gonna. I'm gonna work. I'm gonna shake the tree. I'm gonna shake the tree on that, obviously, we have the title of the episode. Shake the tree.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Shake the tree. I have a little joke. What do you got? Because in the show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And I love it. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I don't know why, but it's the one where I talk about grief. I'm anxious about exploring grief as a public person because there's no roadmap for how autistic people are supposed to Grieve. But you can, you know, you can grieve incorrectly as a public person. It's true. I saw it on the nightly news in the 1980s that Dingo did take that lady's baby, and she still went to jail because she did sad wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait, I laughed at that joke, however.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Cause I said the word dingo.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, but. No, because I knew roughly the dingo ate my baby reference, but I didn't know it well enough to fully grasp the joke. Can you tell me what the news story was?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And did she go to jail? Is that right?

[Hannah Gadsby]

Well, she went to jail for killing her baby. But the dingo took the baby. And it was the media pile on and corruption. And people were like, well, she's not sad. Like, look at her. She's not sad. She's not crying in the right places. Why would you put a black, you know, matinee jacket on a baby? There's something wrong with you. You're doing sad wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And she went to jail. She was exonerated.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, she was exonerated.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She didn't kill her baby. It was the dingo.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It was a dingo.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It actually was the dingo. And she said the dingo ain't my baby. But the way she said it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, that's the way Meryl Streep said it. Oh, Dingo took my body.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Like, it's haunted me my whole life. Meryl.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh. I think we have to unpack. The reason maybe the joke isn't receiving the thing that you wanted to receive is. I only know the phrase dingo ate my baby. That's all I know.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, honestly, I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's a movie. I don't know. There's. I don't know what the news story is.

[Hannah Gadsby]

No, it's just that it's getting inconsistent. So I don't know how to work out what to do with the joke because sometimes people just laugh. And I think it's just because I say dingo.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Or they say. Or that you're saying dingo ate in baby in component parts. And we know that story roughly.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think, honestly, like, it's just got.

[Hannah Gadsby]

The rhythm of the joke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, yeah, exactly. And for American audience, I would say for American audiences, I think that you should try. I mean, you're here for a few more weeks. It's like, I would try doing it where you literally explain the story because I think that the joke will kill.

[Hannah Gadsby]

It is also a show full of references that I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it's got A lot of references. Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I don't care if everyone gets them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, I get it.

[Hannah Gadsby]

But there's also, like, the. Cause it is a repetition of mine. I saw it on the nightly News in the 90s.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So that's why it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I think you have to at least give a half sentence to the story in the news. It was huge in Australia, where a.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Woman'S baby would go, I don't know, like, too long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Even now, too long.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Maybe I should get you to come on and be the narrator.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's what you need.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And then you just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's what you need.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I'll just pause and you come out. What's happening here? Hannah doesn't want to explain this to you. So you're sitting in a bit of confusion.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And Hannah is not really. Hannah's being a little selfish about this because more concerned about the rhythm of the delivery. But talking about a news story in the 1980s.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This podcast is a prank show where comedians come on, and then I explain to them that I'm going to be the official narrator of their show from now on.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I really enjoyed narrating as you just then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, very briefly, I do think half a sentence of. There's a news story that was blank, blank, blank. Move to the joke. That's how I feel. Or do the joke. And after.

[Hannah Gadsby]

What I'm here for is the blank, blank, blank. That's what we're working out. What's the blank, blank?

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I'm saying, how do I describe.

[Hannah Gadsby]

This whole cultural phenomenon with blank, blank, blank? This is what we're working on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I just said it a second ago. And then you go, no, it's too long.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yes. And now it's blank. Let me say. Maybe it's too short now. Blank, blank, blank.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think blank, blank, blank.

[Hannah Gadsby]

There might be something in the middle.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm saying I'm doing shouty, shouty, crinkle brain.

[Hannah Gadsby]

So is it like Lindy Chamberlain? No, I don't wanna. I don't want her to know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, no. I would literally just go, there's a news story from the 1980s where they've.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Not put that together with context clues. I saw it on the night.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm telling you, I couldn't. I mean, I think of myself as an astute audience member, and I couldn't put together. And I grew up in the same exact era. I would literally just say, there's a news story in the 1980s. All you need to know is everyone thought that this woman killed her baby. But the dingo ate the baby. Blank joke, blank joke. Or whatever. I don't remember that. Blank, blank, blank. Shouty, shouty, crinkle friend.

[Hannah Gadsby]

That's been very helpful. I do think that this is good advice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you being facetious?

[Hannah Gadsby]

No. This is a problem I have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Hannah Gadsby]

I, when I try to be sincere, I focus really hard on like I really want to communicate sincerity. And then I just really disarm people and they go, you're taking the piss.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, your wife has told me you are non communicative. So.

[Hannah Gadsby]

And unresponsive.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And unresponsive. The last thing we do is working out for cause nonprofit you think is pretty good. And we give money to them and then we link to them in the show notes.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Okay. It's the Autistic self advocacy Network.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Awesome.

[Hannah Gadsby]

They're a nonprofit organization. Motto is nothing about us without us.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's so beautiful.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Thank you. I did not write that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But nothing. I know you didn't write it, but it's beautiful. So it's nothing about us without us.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Yeah. It's autistic run. And it like, unlike, it's just trying to help autistic people and exist really and, you know, be in charge of their own lives and offering support to do that. It's not a lot of autistic charities work to try and cure autism. That is not what this is about. It's about, you know, empowering and enabling and, you know, providing external scaffolding and also making, you know, advocating that it's not just sort of straight white CIS men who work in Silicon Valley who have autism. Like there's every community, every walk of life has neurodiversity and that's something to be celebrated and needs to be accommodated because the world is built for one kind of brain and that's unsustainable.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's beautiful. I think you're a phenomenal role model for that community and I think it's great that you support that organization and will contribute to them and, and we hope the listeners will as well.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks, Hannah. Thanks for coming on. It's such an honor working it out.

[Hannah Gadsby]

Cause it's not done.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're working it out. Cause there's no. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow hannah on Instagram annagatsby. You can get tickets to their new show Woof in New York City, hannagadsby.com au and the full video of this is on YouTube. Check that out. Subscribe. We're going to be posting more and more videos. It's been a blast there. Almost 50,000 subscribers at this point, which is just a whole new thing in the last year. And I really appreciate you going over there and watching the episodes. Watching the episodes I find interesting because I don't watch every episode, but every now and then, like with the Jack Antonov episode, I watched it and the body language tells you a lot about what is happening at that moment. And this episode is great for that too. Check that out and subscribe. Check out burbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, our producers are working at I myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simon Sound mix by Shub Sarin supervising engineer, Kate Polinsky. Special thanks of course to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music they crushed at Madison Square Garden. Unbelievable show as always. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Her book Little Astronaut is now available as an audiobook. She has a beautiful voice. I highly recommend it. Special thanks as always to my daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows, by the way. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We're almost at 4,000 user reviews. We have come a long way since 2020 when we started the podcast. We've almost 150 episodes. They're all free. There's no paywall. We've had Jimmy Fallon and Kate Berlant and Chris Gethard. You can listen to our entire back catalog anywhere you get your podcasts. Comment on Apple Podcasts which one is your favorite so new listeners know where to go. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, Tell your enemies. Let's say you're at a tennis tournament, tennis match, and someone wants to introduce you to Anna Kendrick, which is a great honor, of course. Anna Kendrick is practically royalty, but you can't quite remember the name of the franchise that she leads. It's Trolls. So what you do is you're about to meet her, you put your earbuds in and then when you meet her, you go, oh, I was. Sorry. I was just listening to this podcast where Mike Birbiglia talks to other creatives about the creative process and jokes. Crisis averted. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.