151. Elizabeth Gilbert: Eat, Pray, Jokes

Summary

Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - Episode 151: Elizabeth Gilbert: Eat, Pray, Jokes

Release Date: November 18, 2024

In Episode 151 of "Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out," comedian Mike Birbiglia welcomes renowned author Elizabeth Gilbert, best known for her bestselling memoir "Eat Pray Love." The episode delves into Gilbert's journey as a writer, the impact of her work, and her unique approach to creativity and personal growth. Through engaging conversation, Birbiglia and Gilbert explore the complexities of fame, self-expression, and the therapeutic power of writing.

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Introduction and Personal Anecdotes

The episode kicks off with Elizabeth Gilbert sharing a humorous and revealing story about her experience at JFK airport upon returning from Central America.

Elizabeth Gilbert [00:00]: "I was coming into the country from Central America in New York at JFK and I was traveling alone... I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat Pray Love. And she goes, you're Eat Pray Love."

Gilbert reflects on the unexpected recognition she receives solely based on her famed work, highlighting how "Eat Pray Love" has become a cultural touchstone.

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The Double-Edged Sword of Success

Mike Birbiglia discusses the phenomenon of being identified primarily by one major work and its implications.

Mike Birbiglia [00:58]: "Elizabeth has written one of my favorite books on writing, which is called Big Magic, which is about writing and creativity. I highly recommend it."

The conversation turns to how Gilbert's massive success with "Eat Pray Love" has shaped public perception and her own identity as a writer.

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Exploring Writing and Creativity

Gilbert shares insights from her book "Big Magic," emphasizing the importance of creativity and the personal nature of the writing process.

Elizabeth Gilbert [20:12]: "I really love doing this... There's a through line that goes through all of that, which is, I really love doing this."

She discusses the balance between passion and practicality in creative endeavors, referencing wisdom from the Bhagavad Gita about being entitled to the labor but not the fruits of it.

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Navigating Public Backlash and Personal Integrity

The duo delves into the challenges Gilbert faced when "Eat Pray Love" became a polarizing phenomenon.

Elizabeth Gilbert [14:38]: "It wasn't meant for you... But then I remember to my husband at the time..."

Gilbert articulates her perspective on dealing with widespread criticism and the importance of staying true to one's creative vision despite external opinions.

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Letters from Love: A Therapeutic Practice

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Gilbert's Substack project, "Letters from Love," where she writes daily letters of unconditional love to herself.

Elizabeth Gilbert [38:03]: "Like, if you take antidepressants, we love you. If you don't, we love you..."

Gilbert explains the origins of this practice during a tumultuous period in her life and its enduring impact on her mental well-being.

Elizabeth Gilbert [39:08]: "I did this every day."

Birbiglia appreciates the concept, likening it to self-soothing techniques that promote emotional stability and resilience.

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Balancing Personal Life and Creative Pursuits

The conversation shifts to Gilbert's personal life choices, particularly her decision to prioritize solitude to nurture her creativity.

Elizabeth Gilbert [30:18]: "It's so good... I've written three books in that time."

She discusses the fulfillment found in solitude and the challenges of maintaining meaningful relationships while deeply engaged in creative work.

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Navigating Relationships and Self-Reflection

Gilbert shares profound insights into her past relationships and the journey towards self-awareness.

Elizabeth Gilbert [34:36]: "Whoever's sitting next to me in the position of partner will be blamed or praised, depending on how I'm feeling."

This segment highlights the importance of personal accountability and the transformation that comes from introspection.

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The Surreal Experience of "Eat Pray Love" Adaptation

The episode touches upon Gilbert's reaction to the film adaptation of her book.

Elizabeth Gilbert [49:26]: "So surreal. So surreal."

Gilbert recounts her initial disbelief and ongoing processing of seeing her life portrayed by Julia Roberts, emphasizing the uncanny nature of such portrayals.

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Closing Reflections and Support for Mental Health

As the conversation winds down, both Birbiglia and Gilbert emphasize the importance of mental health support.

Elizabeth Gilbert [59:54]: "I love the Loveland foundation... provides free psychiatric care and therapy for black girls and women."

They advocate for supporting organizations that offer essential mental health services, underscoring the episode's theme of self-care and compassion.

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Notable Quotes

• Elizabeth Gilbert [10:17]: "You are entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor."

• Elizabeth Gilbert [38:23]: "The letter's from love itself. Unconditional love itself."

• Elizabeth Gilbert [39:42]: "This doesn't really have anything to do with you. It's about me finding my own way."

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Conclusion

Episode 151 offers a deep dive into Elizabeth Gilbert's creative mind and personal philosophies. Through candid storytelling and thoughtful discourse, Birbiglia and Gilbert illuminate the intersections of fame, creativity, and personal well-being. Listeners gain valuable insights into the resilience required to navigate success and the therapeutic power of self-expression.

For those inspired by this conversation, Elizabeth Gilbert's "Big Magic" and her Substack project "Letters from Love" provide further exploration into the realms of creativity and self-compassion.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussion between Mike Birbiglia and Elizabeth Gilbert.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I was coming into the country from Central America in New York at jfk and I was traveling alone and I gave them my passport. And the woman's like, what was the nature of your travels? And I said, just traveling around. And she was a little suspicious, I think. And she's like, what's the nature of your work? And I said, a writer. And she said, what kind of things do you write? And I just said like, well, I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat Pray Love. And she goes, you're Eat Pray Love. You're Eat Pray Love. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey. And she starts like calling down the line of every, like not the, but the other immigration people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And she's like, oh my gosh, this.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Is Eat Pray Love. And I'm like, why are they having this reaction? And then she's like, no, you don't know. Every day women are coming back into the country alone. And I say, what were you doing? And they say, I was having my own eat pralo. Multiple times a day we hear this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I believe it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And she's like, I can't believe you're the actual one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Crazy. That is the voice of the great Elizabeth Gilbert. Elizabeth Gilbert has written many, many books and is most well known for her book Eat Pray Love, which she mentions there at the beginning. You know, massive book. I mean, it sold over 10 million copies. It was, it was made into a major motion picture with Julia Roberts playing her, which we talk about today. And we talk about so many things today, such an interesting episode. We talk about the double edged sword of being known for one huge thing that you didn't even know would become popular. She's written one of my favorite books on writing, which is called Big Magic, which is about writing and creativity. I highly recommend it. Elizabeth has a substack called Letters from Love and that's actually how we first got in touch. We talked about a little bit on the show today, but she asked me to write. She always, each week she has a guest, a guest writer writing a letter from Love to the author. And I'm gonna do it. I'm working on it now, but we talk about today. It's one of the things we work out on the show today. And so check out that substack. It's fantastic. By the way, I wanna thank everyone who bought tickets to my show, the Good Life at the Beacon Theater in New York. We have added a fourth. Yes, a fourth show at the Beacon Theater on March 19th. And actually the other night I performed there as part of the New York Comedy Festival. There was a Judd Apatow and Friends show. When he does live shows, he always does them for nonprofits, and it was benefiting people who were affected by the hurricane in North Carolina, which I felt great about. A quick note about the Asheville show on December 12th. Obviously the people and the businesses of Asheville have been through a lot from the hurricane. I actually was torn on doing the show in Asheville for a while. I was getting emails from a lot of you who live in North Carolina. People saying, do the show, some people saying, don't do the show. I've spoken with one of my closest friends lives in Asheville. I've spoken to the venue and we ultimately decided it would be best to go ahead and do the show. And if you cannot make it to the show, you can get a full refund. And if you're having trouble getting a full refund, contact the venue. I spoke to them on the phone and they're going to make sure that everyone who cannot make it gets a full refund. But we're going to have a great night in Asheville. I have donated to United Way of Asheville as well as the Mana Food bank, so please donate there if you can. People in Asheville still need help. So in January I will be in Iowa City at the Englert, which is awesome. I'll be in February in Pickering, Ontario, at the Pickering Casino Resort, which looks awesome. February four and five, I'll be in Baltimore at the Baltimore Center Stage, which was recommended to me by Ira Glass, who's a Baltimore native and he used to go to the shows there as a kid. February 21st and 22nd, I'll be in Northampton, Massachusetts at the Academy of Music. February 23rd, I'll be in Burlington, Vermont at the Flynn. We're going to be adding one last city, which I think is Los Angeles. Stay tuned on the mailing list. All of that on burrbigs.com I love this episode we do today with Elizabeth Gilbert. We talk about the sort of unexpected ripple effects of her book, Eat Pray, Love. We talk about her novel that was set in Russia that she decided to put a pin in for now and maybe forever. She tells some dirty jokes and stories which you might not expect. She has phenomenal insights into writing that. We recorded this a couple weeks ago. I feel like I think about them every day. This is like one of my favorite episodes in a long, long time. Just truly someone who has thought so deeply about creativity and writing. This is especially interesting I think if you write autobiographical work, the ideas of making peace with creative failure. And it's just a lovely conversation. Enjoy my chat with the great Elizabeth Gilbert. I'm here with Elizabeth Gilbert. Can I call you Liz? Other people do. Stay, please. I'm trying to take my cue from other interviews.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Please call me Liz or even Lizzie. And that's even better.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you can call me Liz. So Lizzie.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Lizzie came in with gifts for me and Mabel and Gary, our producers of stickers that say you are loved. And if I had told someone that this is what you did, they would say there's no way. You're just. You're. That's. That's. What would be the movie version of Liz Gilbert showing up at your studio.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Cookies.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's in Cookies. You brought cookies for Halloween. It's extraordinarily on brand.

[Unknown]

It's a little.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you ever find yourself too on brand for yourself? Does it ever feel like this is too much? No, I think it's lovely.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Thank you. I'm glad you like it. I guess I'm pretty on. I'm trying to think I like it when I'm off brand. Like, people don't think that I tell filthy jokes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, like, I don't know. Like that's really more of what I came from. Like, I grew up with a bunch of alcoholic uncles.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, gosh.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And there are some of my favorite memories of my entire life is just being a kid at a table with a bunch of very drunk men who didn't give a shit that there was an eight year old girl sitting there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And were just like unleashing the most outrageous humor and outrageous stories. And they were great, you know, like, it was so great. It was so. And I've always kind of loved being in that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So in a way, like, we're kind of jumping right into it. But when I became the Eat Pray love lady, that to me felt a little off brand. Cause like, I was like, how did I become like a spiritual leader? You know, because you come from in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What you viewed as sort of a crasser background.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. And I was a bartender and I worked on a ranch and I wrote for men's magazines for 10 years. And you know, but. And then I was like, oh, I guess I'm like a woman's woman now. You know, like, I'd always kind of been a man's woman. And then I became like the ladies woman. And then I was like, well, that's great because they're wonderful. And now I like the men and the women. So I don't know. It's more surprising to me that I'm the Eat, Pray, Love lady than that I'm not, if that makes sense. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

But I do love giving stickers to people that tell them that they're loved.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's. Do you remember Body Joke from when you were a kid?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you remember any of them?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, my God, I remember all of them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you say one without it being.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I'll give you an even better. I'll give you a body story. Okay. From my grandfather, who was the funniest person I've ever met in my entire life and took up the whole room and every room he was in. I went to visit him when he was 96, and he was also, like, kind of buff, kind of like an athlete. Like, he was just this, like, power man.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He came to his 90s.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. And he came down. I was staying at their farmhouse, and he came down the stairs one morning while I was staying there, and he'd forgotten I was there. And he was totally naked. And I had two thoughts. One was, this is very embarrassing. And the other one was like, he's fucking ripped. Like, he was 96, but he had, like, chiseled, like. I was like, dude's been, like, doing pharma so strong. He didn't have his glasses on. He didn't have his hearing aids in. And I was sitting on the couch reading, and he bent over, like, right in front of me to, like, start working on the fire. And I'm like, grandpa. Hey, Grandpa. You know? Hey. Just trying to get his attention. Like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't want to embarrass you or freak you out, but, like, I'm here. I think he forgot I was staying there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And he finally heard me, and he turned around really, really slowly, and he looked at me and he goes, lizard, if I'd known you were here, I would have put my teeth in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a great line.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Hilarious. They were funny. Like, those childhood memories of just being in the storm of humor and total inappropriateness.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, were so great. I wouldn't have changed that for anything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know what you mean. It's funny. Like, you're saying you're the Eat, Pray, Love person. But, I mean, you and I have that in common, which is we write. The subject of a lot of our writing is our own lives.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which is a safe thing to write about, generally, because it's yours and so you can spin it however you wish. And thematically take it where you want to take it. But it's. Do you ever get sick of yourself writing about yourself?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yes. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that anymore.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

After. Each time I do it, I'm like, that's it. No more. You know, but then life gets lifey and interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And needs to be processed and things arise that I want to figure out. And I don't know about you, but I feel like I figure out my life by writing about it and talking about it. Yeah. I mean, I'm going into these subjects because I want to understand what happened or why I'm like this or so, you know, I'll probably keep doing it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is a joke in my current. A joke in my current show right now is I go, Jenny, my wife, describes me as the narrator of our marriage who nobody asked for. I'll be scrubbing the dishes in this thing. I'll be like, I'm doing the dishes.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're like the CNN ticker ticket.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good tag for it, actually. Yeah. I'll be like, I'm gonna grab ice cream for your parents.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're live tweeting the marriage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, exactly. And she'll be like, you don't have to say all that. You can just do it, and then it'll be done. And I do a lot of stuff, too, and I don't talk about it, I just do it. And then it. I'm like, I'm going to give you five points for that there on the whiteboard. But, yeah, that's definitely my Achilles heel is I do that for my profession, then I also do it in my life.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, but what do people want? Who was it? I'm trying to think. I think it was the writer, Megan Tom, who said, you know, when people accuse memoirs of being oversharing, and she's like, well, how do you want your memoirs?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Undersharing. That's not a very effective. You know, I always have a very dramatic, glamorous idea that one day I'm just gonna, like, close the veil, you know, And I'm like, that's enough. I've. You people have gotten enough of me, you know, and then I just don't because I'm. I also like the engagement. Like, I like. I like talking to people. I like talking about life. I would be a little bored behind the closed veil.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, no, no, I feel the same way. And also, it's like, you're. We're only alive for a short time. So what are you holding on to?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, you know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like, what's the point, right? Like, you get to. I mean, every. And also, like, that's the thing about memoiring, when people go, I can't believe you tell everybody everything. I go, everyone knows everything already, right? You think you're keeping secrets from people they know, Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

When I was going through my. The divorce that led to E Pray Love, which was an incredibly dark time and a horrible time, and somebody very facetiously quoted that, like, nothing bad ever happens to a writer thing, like, well, at least it's going to be great material for something. And I remember the righteous, like, I rose up on my hind legs, like, as if I would ever, ever exploit this great, tragic, dark, precious, depressed, anxious, suicidal moment of my life to write about for public, you know, Cut to, like, three years later is Ypres. Love the movie, you know? You know, and I'm like, you know, but at the time, I think I don't plan to. When. When I'm in pain, I'm like, this feels very precious and very dark and very private. And then gradually it's like, hey, guys, you know what happened to me?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, two years ago, like, let's. I don't know, let's open it up, let's unpack it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you get sensitive about. Cause like, you. It's similar to Lin Manuel Miranda, where he had this hit musical that was beloved and then it went wide onto. It was filmed and then it went to an exponentially large audience and all of a sudden everyone has a take. Do you ever feel that way with your book where it got so big that you were like, you guys actually don't get what this is.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Even I felt like that when it was. I watched the approval and disapproval of me projection, kind of the sine wave go. And I think because I'd been in media for so long and because I'd been a journalist and like, I'd worked on pieces where people were analyzing, like, oh, this person is falling from favor. This person is rising in favor. Like, I think I was able to sort of look at it from a slight remove, but I remember when it was sort of peak Eat, Pray Love, and it was peak people hating Eat, Pray Love, you know, which goes. And where it had become sort of a joke and. And it was fashionable to hate it. And I was thinking, like, well, it's gotten so big that a whole bunch of people who it was never meant for have found it. And now, because there's A zeitgeist around it. They have to have an opinion about it. But it was never marketed to them, targeted to them, or for them, you know, So a bunch of people who it's not speaking to were like, I hate this thing. And I'm like, I bet you do. I never intended for you to read it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It wasn't meant for you. You know, it wasn't for you. It wasn't for you. But then I remember to my husband at the time, I think we're like, five minutes from. There's gonna be, like, a hipster backlash reappreciation, where it's gonna suddenly become cool to be like, no, actually Eat, Pray, Love is a good book, and Liz Gilbert's a good writer, and that will be the cool position for somebody to take. And it's like, five, four, three. And the first piece came out like that, which is like, you're all hating on this, but in fact.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, and that's where I stand on it, because I. I wasn't part of the first wave because, like, you're saying it wasn't for me. But then when people started weighing in on so hard, I was like, this person is a really, undeniably. A really good writer and really earnestly discussing her journey. So if that's not for you, can you get out of the way? Like, this is her deal. This is for. Not for you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's okay. Go back to the things you like. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Go to the things you like.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I also wonder why people finish reading books that they hate if they're not paid for it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, like, if I hated anything as much as some people hated Eat, Pray, Love, I would have stopped reading on page five.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Totally.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Because, like you mentioned, life is very short. I'm also not a completist when it comes to any media. It's like, it's the job of the author or the artist or the creator to make me want to stay with something. And if they don't, that's not my problem. I'm leaving 100%, you know? So I'm like, why did you finish it so hard? Like, why did you read it? And so a frothy sweat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good way to look at it, too. Yeah, but what about, like, you have this great book called Big Magic, and it's a book about creativity, and it's about writing, and it's all these anecdotes about. Actually, my favorite anecdote is the. Is the Werner Herzog, the great film director, where your friend A friend of yours wrote a letter to Werner Herzog and said, hey, how come my movie's aren't successful? The marketplace is so unfair and blah, blah. And I'm paraphrasing, but Werner basically wrote back, like, get a camera or steal a camera. However you get a camera, shoot a movie and essentially make another one. Make another. Make another one.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. And quit your complaining. Nobody wants to hear it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, very directly said, like, nobody wants to hear it. It's not my favorite line in that letter. And Herzog wrote back to him, which I think is amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's amazing to me.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And said, it's not the world's fault that you want to be an artist and it's not the world's responsibility to make you be a successful artist. That's your problem. You know, like, stay, get to work. Why are you writing me a letter and not making a film? Also, who would think to write to Werner Herzog for sympathy?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I thought it was interesting.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I mean, I thought it was an interesting thing. But the thought, like, you know, who could really. Who would really comfort me?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. Who would really come for me is that guy. Yeah, yeah. This really stern man. The famously serious voice.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Uncle Werner, you're having a hard day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I just thought it was funny that somebody went there, but you're so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You, you have all these great inspirational stories, and it's like, about writing and opening yourself up to inspiration, all this kind of stuff. What about the person who writes every day, does the work, shows up? You know, 30 years in, 40 years in goes, people are just not finding this work. They're not connecting to this work. Like, it's one of those things where you go like, well, you wrote a book about creativity, but you're from the perspective of someone who's wildly successful at creativity. Does it work for everybody?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't think anything works for everybody. True, right. Like, I think that's the curiosity of the human spiritual and creative path. And I think the spiritual and creative path are the same thing, which is like, how am I going to get through this? And you have to borrow from so many different ideas and find your way and try things on. You know, like, nowhere would I say that big magic is a prescription for anybody. And I also would, in speaking to somebody who's been working for 30 years and hasn't had any success, I'd be pretty careful about being, like, humble, about being like, just stick with it. It's great. Like, if I had had 30 years of writing with no success. I'm not sure that I would have wanted to stick with it, you know, like, so I think I would just want to be respectful of the situation that they're in. And there has to be another reason to make art besides, like, I've written books no one's read.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, because they needed to write them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And, like, there's multiple strands of reasons that we create work. And not all of it is about the market. A lot of it is, but not all of it is. And I've also, like, I wrote a book that was canceled, like, two years ago. I saw that, you know, like, so it's unbelievable. So I've had experience with, like, before it was published, you know, like, that I worked on for years. Yeah. And there was something. I mean, that's a whole big story that I don't need to get into other than to say the same thing that got me through, like, seven years of rejection letters is the same thing that got me through the massive success of E Pray Love is the same thing that got me through a book being canceled is the same thing that gets me to my desk every morning. There's a through line that goes through all of that, which is, I really love doing this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And I really love this line in the Bhagavad Gita 5000 year old wisdom that says, you're entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And I feel like that's the wisest possible way to work. And that might not be very comforting to somebody who's like, I'd like some fruit for my labor, you know, but is the labor. I don't know how you feel about this, but I've always felt to a certain extent the making of the thing is the best part.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And when my editor, like, when we decided to pull the book, and she was very lovingly saying to me, like, this is so tragic. Like, you worked for three years on this book. It's a beautiful book. And I was. But I hadn't seen it. I was like, sarah, if you knew how much I love doing this. Like, if not one minute of that was wasted time, like, the best memories I had of the previous three years were sitting alone in a room writing that book. And I know from having written so many books, nothing that comes after is ever better than the moment when it's. When you get it. Like when you're like, oh, my God, it's happening. Like, the whole thing is coming together. I see how this works. Now, like, no praise, no glory is ever better than that. It' it's, you know, like, nothing. That's the thing. That's the kind of. Because then you're in that that collaboration is happening and that the current is flowing through you and you're meeting it with the heat, and you're right on the edge of. This is. I'm almost not gifted enough to do this, but I'm. But somehow it's working and, like, you know, the thing's running on itself and I'm not even driving it anymore. Like, there's. I mean, I hope that I would keep doing that whether anybody ever saw it or not. I sure did for a long time. But if people aren't getting enjoyment out of it, don't do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't do it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

There's no reason.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, of course.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

There's no reason to do it if it's not a pleasure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The Russian novel, to me, you know, being completely outside of it, I read that headline of like, you canceled this Russian novel or they canceled. Someone canceled.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I canceled it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You canceled this Russian novel because of. People objected to it based on the Ukrainian war. But. But isn't it based in Russia in the 30s or 40s? It's from another era.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, but it doesn't really have anything to do with. It's just not the right moment for it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And when I read what people were saying, what Ukrainians were saying, it made.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sense to me, even though they hadn't read it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Doesn't matter.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Doesn't matter.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, they. And I have. I mean, I think also I have. I've been published in Ukraine for a long time, and Ukrainians are passionate, devoted readers, famously. And like, the publishing house that I work with in Ukraine is one of the oldest publishing houses in Europe. Like, they take reading really seriously, and they take literature really seriously. And I think I. And, like, Eat Pralev was a bestseller in Ukraine, you know, And I think I heard from every single one of my readers in Ukraine, and the tone changed based on how reactive people felt about it. But the message was consistently like, hey, could you maybe not right this minute.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Publish a book that pulls the attention of the world toward Russia when we're doing everything we can to keep the attention of the world on the struggle that we're having, trying to not be killed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I get that.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, could you maybe not? Like, is this really the time for this? And my thought was, I think you're absolutely right. You know, like, my inclination if, like, tens of thousands of people who are suffering and being oppressed and murdered, rise up in one voice collectively to take the time from when they're getting killed to say to me specifically, could you not do this thing?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It would be easy on the book, right?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Hurtful for us. My inclination is not to be like, no, it wouldn't. It's not even about you. You know, it's like, okay, got it heard.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, that helps me understand it a little bit more because I feel like I would have a similar reaction. But when I read it, it felt like an Internet mob and not real people reaching out and saying, this is upsetting.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

There was an Internet mob that happened around it because there is always. But at its core was a very articulate, like a very articulate plea that felt very reasonable to me. And also like, life is long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. Life is long.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, life is long. The book is done. It's in the vault. It's like, cool. We'll just hang on to that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There will be a time for it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. Or there won't. It's not. I don't have the right to the fruits of the labor. I only have the right to the labor.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And I don't want to do anything that feels like it's out of my own integrity just to prove a point that I can.

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[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know about you, but I.

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[Mike Birbiglia]

It feels special.

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[Mike Birbiglia]

I love this thing in Big Magic where you go, like, being a writer again, I'm paraphrasing probably terribly, but it's not a job. It's a thing that you are and you choose to do essentially. And if you are paid for it or compensated for it, that's great. Good for you. But it's never to be counted on.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No. In fact, I get hives when people tell me that they're quitting their job to do something in the arts. Cause I always say, like, I didn't quit my day jobs to be like, only an artist till my fourth book. Till after my fourth book. And my fourth book was Eat, Pray Love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And until then, I always had so many multiple strands of income because the feeling I had was like, I don't wanna put the pressure on my creativity that it has to support me. Because then my experience with that is it makes creativity shrink away in fear. You know, like, I wanna be, I will be the sugar mommy for my own work. So I'll go wait tables and be a bartender so that my creativity doesn't have to support me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, that's the view that I had toward it. It's like my responsibility to support it. It's not its responsibility to support me. And so, you know, I know people who've like, quit their job and then move somewhere to write a novel. And the entire time all they're thinking about is like, how am I gonna pay my mortgage? Like, how are you gonna write a novel when all you're thinking about is that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, like, just also, who can write eight hours a day? Like, on my best days, I write, like, two hours a day. On my best days.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How come? Because it takes everything out of you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. I don't have the. I can't do it longer than that. It's draining when I'm in deep writing mode. Like, I write for two hours a day, and I spend the rest of the day sort of, like, staring at the wall, drooling. Like, just, like, what just happened?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I totally relate to that.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, just like, walking around it with a vacant stare.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I think that's true. Particularly when it's working.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like. Cause you're basically possessed by all these characters.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's using you. You know, it's using you. And then you're thinking about it the rest of the day, dreaming about it at night. You know, it's nice to live alone when you're working on a novel.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's what I.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Because I've lived with people and felt like I wasn't a very good partner to them when I was working on a novel. And I didn't really want to be.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I really wanted to just be with the thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have this. You have this great thing that you said, I thought was so wise about being sort of a relationship celibate, which is that I don't know if it's still true, but for a period of years, you weren't in a relationship. And part of the thing you were observing was, are the things that I was projecting possibly onto my partner things that were just on me?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And are you still not in a relationship? And you're still not?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Still not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And do you. What's your observation about the experience?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's so good. And I. And I say that with, like, the greatest love for the wonderful people that I've been with, but I've never been in a relationship that's better than not being in one. This is such a terrible thing to say. I feel like it's an illegal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This interview is over.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I feel like it's an illegal thing to say, but it's. And when I look at.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hot take.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

When I look at the relationships that I admire, it's so telling that the thing about the relationships that I admire the most is the relationships where the people give each other the most space. In other words, the thing that I think looks like, oh, that looks like a good relationship looks alluring. Is the one where people don't ask very much of each other. Right. And I'm like, well, maybe you just don't want to be in a relationship, right? And there's a poem by Jack Gilbert, who, I quote a lot, who's not related to me, but he's kind of like this sort of angel floating over big magic. He's a poet who I love and admire a lot. And he has this poem he wrote late in life. And he lived this very unconventional life, very much on his. Very much listening to his own calling and refusing fame, refusing family, refusing, like, just going off and doing a lot of stuff by himself that took years, just because he wanted to. And when he was really old and living in a shepherd's hut on a rooftop in Greece, he wrote this poem where it's an argument that he's. It's a discussion he's having with God as he's cooking his meal. And the meal is a piece of fish he bought from a fisherman that morning that he walked up the hill, and the tomatoes that he grew. And he's just sitting, watching the light change. And God is saying to him, like, why are you like this? Like, why can't you just be normal? Why? Like, you could have had marriages. You could have had families, you could have children. Why do you live alone? You could have lived in one of the great cities in the world. Like, why do you just keep coming and being by yourself? Like a weirdo, essentially. And the last two lines, as he's, like, got his perfect fish cooked and the tomatoes and the sun is going down, the Lord says to him, why are you so stubborn? And Jack Gilbert says, I'm not stubborn. I'm just greedy. And he sits and eats his fish alone. And that poem makes so much sense to me. The older I get. Him in my 50s now. And I am so greedy for my solitude. I'm so greedy for my freedom. I'm so greedy for being able to make a plan and say, I'm going away for three weeks and I don't have to run it by anybody. You know, I'm so greedy for, like, just getting up in the middle of the night and taking a bath. I don't know. Like, there's the expansion of living alone. I also lived with people for 35 uninterrupted years, pretty much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So it's been almost six years now that I've been like this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Greedy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Greedy.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Greedy for this beautiful experience of. And I've written three books in that time. Like, my creativity is blossoming and my friendships are richer and, I don't know. I Just I seem to. I seem to like it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the thing in your romantic relationships where you realized when that was not in your life equation, that part of that was you and you had thought maybe it was the other person.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh. So my thing, and I think this is probably common, is like, whoever's sitting next to me in the position of partner will be blamed or praised, depending on how I'm feeling. So if I'm having a bad day, it's because they suck and are a terrible partner and I need to leave. And if I'm having a great day, it's because they're so supportive and amazing. And if things are going well in my life, it's because they're incredible. And if they're not, it's because they're the worst. And it's just when I took the partner away and still had bad days and great days with nobody to pin it on apart from like, oh, these are just my own moods, and maybe I should take full responsibility and accountability for my own moods rather than projecting it on another life. Got better.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That feels profound. Are you gonna. Will that be in a piece of writing eventually? That idea?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Maybe.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's gotta be.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, this is working it out. We have to talk about what could be worked into writing, and I feel like that has to be. I think that sounds like a great idea for a book. I mean, it's really good. You are doing a substack right now that I'm going to. This is how we started talking about this. You coming on this podcast is you asked me if I would write a thing you were doing on a substack, which is letters from love, that a lot of you've written. Some you've had guest writers come on and write a letter from love. Can you talk me through the concept? Because I'm struggling with it, though. I'm going to do it because I'm. Well, because I think it's a beautiful exercise. I think the comedian in me is having a really hard time engaging it. Self love is a really challenging thing for comedians. Yeah. And I'm for sincerity. But when it tips into just full self love, it becomes me holding up a you are loved. And I want to do it. I want to do my version of it. But can you talk me through where did the idea come from and who's done it best? And where has it felt like, well, this could be a little stronger.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Okay, so the backstory for this is that 20 years ago, when I was going through my first but not last divorce. And I was going through the worst depression I've ever been. Like, it was the worst shame, the worst fear, the worst like, wow, I've drifted so far away from, like, so lost, so lost. And I had bounced out of that relationship into another one, and that relationship had collapsed, and I was, like, heartbroken from both of them. Like, it was just such a mess. I was in such a mess. And shame was the predominant feeling that I was having, like, dark, poisonous shame. And waking up routinely at like 4 or 5 in the morning and just going after myself with brickbats and knives, you know? And it would be like. It's almost like the shame would catch me. Like, all right, it's 4 in the morning. What's she gonna do? She's pinned to the bed now. We're gonna come after her, you know, like the demonic awful. It was brutal. And one of those nights, I don't know what, came to me as inspiration and gave me an assignment. And the assignment was, get out of bed and get a notebook and write a letter to yourself that says, and I was also terribly lonely and heartbroken. So write a letter to yourself that says everything you have always, desperately, desperately wanted somebody to say to you. Like, what is it? That if there was someone here who was incredibly comforting, what would they say? And. And I did it, and it soothed me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And I find it to be a really interesting aspect of the human mind that we're capable of self soothing. Like, even if you. Like, even if you. It's been shown. Like, even if you hold yourself like this and like, tuck your head, your body receives it the same way it receives being held.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Like hugging yourself.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, if you sort of swaddle yourself, like, your body, your cortisol will drop. Like, your body's like, oh, someone's here. You know, like, I'm not alone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So that voice did the same thing. And what that voice said was it started with, I'm right here, which is how those letters almost always start for people, not just for me. Like, I'm right here. I'm with you. So I was essentially calling upon the spirit of unconditional love to be present to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's who the letter's from. The letter's from love itself. Unconditional love itself.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, capital L, love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. You know, like, which is maybe a higher power of sorts.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. I mean, I don't call it letters from God because I don't want to scare people. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it could be.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

But it could be. I mean, I don't want to scare, like. And I say that sincerely because people have. I have great respect for people who don't believe in God. And I also have great. A sense of great care for people who are really harmed by the religions that they grew up in and for whom that word is, like, deeply oppressive and trigger. But love. The idea is, like, what would unconditional love say to you right now in this moment of your life if it could speak to you? And so I started doing it daily. So for almost 20 years, I've done this every day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You do that every day?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. Because I kind of can't. I mean, my God, I kind of can't. I don't do well without it. You know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're telling me you did this today?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, I did this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Look, come on.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I do this every day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hang it out.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I do this every day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Will you read it? No, I don't want to put you on the spot to read it, but maybe a line or two.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. It's gotten to be less. Cause I'm stable now, so it's less. Like, what I heard on that first night was like, we're not going anywhere. It was a we. We've got you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And you. This was the thing that I heard. You don't need to get better for us to love you. Like, if you never get better, and this is what your life is, and you're always this depressed. We still love you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That gives me shivers.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It gave me shivers.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's beautiful.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And if you. I mean, what literally they said was, if you end up. Because I was also trying to figure out, should I take antidepressants? Should I not. They were like, if you take antidepressants, we love you. If you don't, we love you. Like, we're in. We're in. We were here with you when you got here. We'll be here with you when you leave. And it's so incredible.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They gave you the sticker?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

They gave me the sticker and they gave me the assignment. So, like, actually, I wrote mine today in the. In the. Cause I was up early this morning helping a friend go somewhere to a doctor's appointment. So I wrote it in the Uber over here. But I. Dear Love, what would you have me know? And that's the question. What would you have me know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What would you have me know?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And then you just. Here's the thing. And why it's gonna be hard for you. It's not because you don't necessarily believe or could receive or Download unconditional love. It's cause as a performer, and the people who have the hardest time doing this are writers and performers who want it to be good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And the people who have the purest and most beautiful ones just ask the question, and then they just write the answer without trying to write the answer right. So it's like, can you get out of the way? And just what would love say to you today in this moment, if it could? So this one was my love. Pause here in this moving vehicle and sense the space around you, within you, above you. Look out the windows and see the space between the leaves on every tree, the space that people leave each other politely on the sidewalk. There is so much more space than clutter and matter. Don't get that messed up or forget it. You've had what you call a busy day up before dawn to drive a friend to the hospital, then to the city and then to an Uber. And now to this interview, then back home tonight. But never will a day be so busy that we cannot find you, to speak to you and bring, to remind you and to remember you. No traffic jam so dense that we can't untangle it in a word, reassuring you that you are in the right place at the right time with the right person, even if you're hurtling across a bridge with a stranger, your coffee splashing about, reminding you that something else is always happening here. And that something else is what you might call nothing but what we call the infinite expansion of how much we love you. All of it filled with the rightness of the moment. How could you be anywhere but right where we can find you? How could you be anything but right? You are loved and wanted. You are known. We see you. Enjoy the ride. We're not going anywhere. Love. Love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So let's work on the second draft. How do you write? Like, that's you scribbling in the car.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I can barely read it. It's like bouncing going on here. But I need this because I'm a high anxiety person and I'm scared all the time. Like, I'm scared a lot. And when I get that message, I'm like, okay. It's okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, in some ways, like what you were reading me is the optimistic, possibly subconscious of yourself speaking to your pessimistic subconscious of yourself or consciousness.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I'll take that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe it is. I don't know, because it's like, it reminds me of this, like, great Ginsburg quote that I think of all the time, which is observe what's vivid.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, I Love that one. Oh, that's so beautiful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I always. But it reminds me of what you're saying. But notice the. You know, the space between the leaves and the space between people, and there's just a certain vividness of like. Yeah. The optimistic side of Lizzie Gilbert is looking for the beauty and telling the pessimistic side. Hey, you should notice this stuff.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. It's happening right now.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And you're in the right place at the right time with the right person, like, you're not doing it wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, which I can never hear enough. Cause I always think, am I doing this wrong?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, I think I can do this as well.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I think you can do it beautifully. And. And I always tell this story. But this, to me, is the real reason that I'm doing this project, is that when the Dalai Lama came to the US for the first time in the 70s, and nobody knew who he was, he had a meeting with some thinkers and artists and psychologists who were like, let's meet this obscure monk and see what's going on. And at that first meeting, this was his first encounter with the west, and. And somebody asked him what the traditional Tibetan remedy was for self hatred. And the Dalai Lama had to talk to a translator for 15 minutes and kept asking the question again and again because he kept thinking he was misunderstanding the question because he didn't understand the question. He kept saying, like, wait, who do you hate? Who's the enemy that you're having trouble with? Who's the person that you're having a problem with? And they were like, I am the person that I am having a problem with. I am the person that is abusive to me. Like, I am the. And he was like. And he's looking around the room and everyone's nodding, and he's like, you all have this, you know. And everyone's like, yeah, welcome to America, you know? And when he realized and when everyone was able to explain to him, like, this is something we all struggle with every single day here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

He was like, well, first of all, this doesn't even make sense because, like, you are the only person you are to be with on this whole journey. Why would you make an enemy out of, of, like, your only friend? Like, your being is going to carry you. Like, that's crazy to turn on that person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And then he said, I used to think I understood the mind, but I find this very troubling and very concerning. And essentially he's like, well, we'll start with this. Then when we come to The West. And so he started by teaching, trying to teach people how to be kind to themselves. And he would say. He would say, treat yourself the way your mother treated you. And then he found out what people's mothers are like. And he was like, okay, grandmother. He's like, reaching, like, how many. Has anybody ever been nice to anyone here? You know, like, where do you have. Like, has anyone ever been nice to anyone here? Like, where were you taught kindness and self compassion?

[Mike Birbiglia]

And has anyone ever been nice to anyone here? Is insane.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's crazy, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And the question that I always have is, like, everyone I know and care about wants to practice universal human compassion, but they're awful to themselves. And universal human compassion that doesn't include compassion to yourself is not by definition universal. You know, so that was the reason that I started this project on Substack. So anyway, I reached out to you. Cause I love your work and I love your vulnerability and your heart. Like, your heart is so evident. So when I DM'd you and I was like, hey, would you want to do this thing? And you were like, I don't know. I don't know if that feels like me. And I'm like, it seems so much like you. Like, I was so surprised by that answer because I was like, what about it doesn't seem like you? Because all I see is your heart and your work.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting, because I appreciate that so much. I think it's a struggle for me to get there. I think in the version that makes it out to Netflix, it's there because I'm. I think it's important for my work. I think it's what I think. I think that you in some way owe it to the audience to give them, all of you, in a certain way. Like, give to give, you know, And I think that's part of it. That's part of who you are and what your story is. And so a lot of times it'll take someone in my life, whether it's my director or Ira Glass or, you know, on this podcast. One time it was Natasha Lyonne, where I was running jokes, and she was like, but what do you. What are you really afraid of? What are you thinking about? I remember that. Yeah. And it was. And she forced me on the spot to tell some really painful stories about death that I think some of them made it into the Old man in the pool special. And. And so it is. I appreciated you messaging me because I was like, oh, okay. Well, here's someone who sees this thing in me And I should engage with this, certainly from someone who is so good at what you're doing. So after we messaged, I listened to the audiobook of Eat, Pray, Love and You. And by the way, couldn't recommend it more highly because you say the words, which I think is so important, and it's beautiful. And then last night, since I knew you were coming today, I watched the movie. And then it's like midnight, and I'm lying next to my wife and she's falling asleep, and I'm watching the movie Eat, Pray, Love, and she sits up from her slumber and goes, I never thought I'd see this day. So good.

[Unknown]

So good.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, I love it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an honest marriage.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, it's so good. That makes me happy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It must be. I was thinking when I was watching it, that's gotta be weird. So weird having Julia Roberts be you. I mean, so surreal.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So surreal. So surreal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you. And also, she gets your mannerisms pretty well. I feel like. Did you feel like she got it from.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't have any object. I don't know. Because that whole, like, I'm the last person you should ask about whether that I don't. Like, I even just start to stammer like, I still haven't processed the existence of that movie.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fair, Fair. Well, it's the greatest case that life is a simulation.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's. So I saw that my then husband and I watched it, and they, you know, put us in a movie theater alone, and we watched it before it came out. And the producer sat outside the door waiting for. Probably very nervously for a response. And if not the first line, one of the first lines of the movie is Julia Roberts walking into the medicine man's house in Indonesia. And she says, hi, I'm Liz Gilbert. And instantly I was like, what? Like, oh, my God, no, you're Julia Roberts.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so weird.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No one's gonna think you're Liz Gilbert.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No one's gonna think you're Liz Gilbert.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Everybody know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You fool. You don't realize people know.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Look at yourself.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The word has gotten out.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're Jilly Robert.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Look at her.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like your chili robber.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What the hell?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So wild.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so strange.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So strange. Can I tell you a quick story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Of a really sweet thing that happened recently? I was coming into the country from Central America, and as I was in New York at JFK and I was traveling alone, I gave them my passport. And the woman's like, what was the nature of your travels? And I said, just, I'm Traveling around. And she was a little suspicious, I think. And she's like, well, what were you doing, you know, for two months in Central America? And I was like, I was talking to people, walking around, looking at things, you know. And she said, what's the nature of your work? And I said, a writer. And she said, what kind of things do you write? And I used to kind of be coy, but now I just lead with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So like, just get over the speed bump. And I just said like, well, I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat Pray Love. And she goes, you're Eat Pray Love. You Eat Pray Love? And I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey. And she starts like calling down the line of everybody, like, not the. But the other immigration people. And she's like, this is Eat Pray Love. This is the woman who wrote. She's like, you did that movie. This is the woman who wrote people. And they're all like, whoa. And all these like, you know, like, custom skies were like, oh my God. And I'm like, why are they having this reaction? And then she's like, no, you don't know. Every day women are coming back into the country alone. And I say, what were you doing? And they say, I was having my own eat pr. Multiple times a day we hear this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I believe it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And she's like, I can't believe you're the actual one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's crazy.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And that was one of the coolest. Like, I was like, oh, we didn't used to have a name for that. It's not that women never traveled alone before you Pray Love, but we didn't have a culturally broad name, a term for, I'm going to go do this thing by myself for my own benefit. Probably because I just went through a breakup or a divorce or I lost a job or something and now there's a word. And everyone understands what that means. That's so cool.

[Unknown]

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[Mike Birbiglia]

We're going to do a slow round. Who are you jealous of?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I can't think of anybody.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Second question. Who are you jealous of that you just thought of but didn't say? This interview is over. Get out of my studio.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Wow. There is somebody that I was so jealous of for so long. Who? Somebody who I was really in love with, like, never got over.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And I could never be her.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And I was so jealous of her for so long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting. But you can't say who.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No, I wouldn't want to put them on blast. But it was. But, I mean, it was excruciating.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were in love with her, but.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No, no, no. I was in love with this dude, okay? This was his ex.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And, like, I just knew that I could never be what that was. And I. He was kind enough to remind me of that frequently. My gosh. And I was young enough to stick around to be like, well, let me try harder to. Let me try harder to be like, more like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Somehow that's a useful thing.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, my Lord.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know that that has a happy ending, though, because I love that guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you're Liz Gilbert has a happy ending also.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

She and I communicated, like, once about it where I was like. I was like, I'm sorry if I'm always weird around you. I just was so jealous of you for so long. And then we, like, sat down and had the most beautiful, like, heart to heart conversation about it. And now I would call that person a friend, but.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So is that a cure for jealousy, speaking with the person?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Maybe.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe for you it was for me.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It definitely was for you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Because I felt like I was really weird. I wanted to like her. She was very. I mean, there was a reason he was into her. She was awesome, you know? But I just. I just said, like, I just felt like I could never, ever, ever compete. And she was like, he made me feel like that, too, about other people. And we were like, oh, wait, this is something he did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, like, the plot thickens.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

This doesn't actually have anything to do with either one of us. It's just a tactic that somebody used to make us both feel like garbage. I see. Anyway, I was so jealous of her. I mean, like, physically. It was physically painful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It was terrible. I. Ugh. Awful. I like that. Second question. That's very smart. Very smart.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Somebody who was a friend of mine was in architecture school and he wanted to work for this firm in Hong Kong, and he saved up all his money and he went to Hong Kong and he went to their offices in the summer between, like, two semesters at school and brought his resume there and said, I want to work for you guys in person. And, like, I think he called them. This was before cell phones and email. Like, this is like 30 years ago. He called them from the lobby and I said, I'd like to work for you. And they were like, send us your resume. And he's like, I'm actually in the lobby. And because I heard that story, I went to the offices of Spin magazine and asked for a job in person. And that's where my journalism career began. Good for you. So it wasn't direct advice, but it was, go to the place. Don't write them a letter. Go. They won't forget you. If you're standing in the lobby, you're not a pile of mail. You're an actual real human being. Right. And that was, like, life changing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's your favorite? Do you have a favorite joke? Joke?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, but it's. It's dirty.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It doesn't matter. I mean, if that's okay with you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You probably know it. The guy who's hunting the bear, and he keeps missing and just nicking the bear. Do you know this one?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Not offhand.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Guys hunting. This is a group. My grandfather told me this when I was eight.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

A man is hunting a bear. While he's hunting in the woods, he sees a bear. He shoots it. He just nicks it in the shoulder. And the bear's so furious that the bear chases him down. Like, I'm not even kidding when I say, my grandfather told me this. Takes the guy's shotgun, breaks it over his knee, pulls the guy's pants down and sodomizes him. And the man is so angry that he comes back the next day with a bigger gun and he hunts the bear down. He can tell Tim because he has a bandage. Hunts him down. And he's like, you violated me. I'm going to punish you. And he shoots him again. Misses, hits the other shoulder. Bear's like, motherfucker chases him down, grabs him, breaks the gun in half, bends him over a log, sodomizes him again. Guy comes back the next day with a huge gun. He's like, this is war. Hunts the bear down, tracks him down, shoots him, misses the bear, chases him, grabs the gun, breaks it, pulls his pants down, is about to sodomize him and then just stops. Puts his hand on the guy's shoulder and goes, let's be honest with each other. This isn't really about hunting anymore, is it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love my favorite part is. You know this one, right?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't think he did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have not heard that joke. All right, so the last thing we do is working it out for our cause. If there's a nonprofit that you like to contribute to, we will. I'll contribute. We'll link to them in the show notes and encourage listeners to contribute.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I love the Loveland foundation, founded by Rachel Cargill, and it provides free psychiatric care and therapy for black girls and women.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, fantastic. And she just did the Letters from Love.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, she just did. Fantastic.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's wonderful. Okay. Yeah, we'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. And Lizzie, thanks so much for coming.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Thanks, Mike.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is the best.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

This is the best. Working it out because it's not done.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're working it out because there's no. That's going to do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Elizabeth Gilbert on Instagram. Elizabeth Gilbert, writer. You can get her book Big Magic and all of her books at your local independent bookstore. And check out Elizabeth substack@elizabeth gilbert.substack.com. the full video of this episode is on our YouTube channel. This is my Mike Birbiglia YouTube channel. You get all of the body language.

[Unknown]

Check out burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer, Gary Simon. Sound mix by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. They just put out a new Christmas song that is fantastic. Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Special thanks to my daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you are enjoying this show, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. We have over 4,000 user reviews. It's really exciting for us. We have over 150 episodes that are all free. No paywall. Come on, it's all free. We've had Lin Manuel Miranda and Jim Gaffigan and Maria Bamford. Check out our back catalog and comment which is your favorite? Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Let's say you're visiting your 96 year old buff grandfather and you accidentally encounter him when he's tending to the fire, naked. In order to break the tension, why not say something like grandpa, here's a podcast I enjoy. It's called Mike Birbigli is Working it out, but put some clothes on first. That way we can all enjoy it together. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.