161. Nathan Lane Returns: The Safest Thing You Can Do Is Take a Risk

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out – Episode 161: Nathan Lane Returns: The Safest Thing You Can Do Is Take a Risk

Introduction

In Episode 161 of “Working It Out,” released on February 24, 2025, comedian and host Mike Birbiglia welcomes the legendary actor Nathan Lane back to the studio. This episode delves deep into Nathan’s illustrious career, his personal anecdotes, and his perspectives on acting and friendship. Highlighting Nathan’s latest projects, including his upcoming Hulu series “Mid Century Modern,” the conversation offers listeners an intimate glimpse into the life of one of America’s great actors.

The Essence of Friendship in Show Business

The episode begins with Mike expressing his admiration for Nathan, emphasizing their long-standing friendship and Nathan’s pivotal role in his career. Nathan reflects on building friendships in the entertainment industry, stating at [03:00], “You've been doing comedy a long time so you build a large Rolodex of friends.” The discussion navigates the complexities of maintaining meaningful relationships amidst the hustle of show business, with both hosts acknowledging the unique challenges and rewards that come with it.

Career Highlights and Memorable Roles

Nathan shares insights into his diverse body of work, highlighting standout roles in films like “Beau is Afraid” and “Dick’s the Musical.” Mike enthusiastically recommends these films, mentioning at [14:05], “it was fun for a minute,” referring to Nathan’s performance. Nathan delves into his experiences working with acclaimed directors such as Ari Aster, recounting the creative process and the unexpected twists during filming. He elaborates on his collaboration with Joaquin Phoenix in “Beau is Afraid,” describing the dynamic on set and the depth of their performances.

Collaborations with Legends: Robin Williams and Mike Nichols

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Nathan’s experiences working with iconic figures like Robin Williams and Mike Nichols. Reflecting on “The Birdcage,” Nathan addresses sensitive topics, including the use of outdated language in the script. At [25:22], he shares, “He said, but dear boy, could you just do one as written? Oh, my God, as written.” Nathan discusses the challenges of navigating creative differences while maintaining professionalism.

Nathan fondly remembers Robin Williams, describing him as “very professional” and “an incredible person” at [32:00]. He recounts moments of Robin’s generosity and support on set, painting a picture of a truly collaborative and uplifting working environment. These reflections not only highlight the personal bonds formed in the industry but also underscore the profound impact these relationships have on one’s career and personal growth.

Navigating the Acting Landscape: Challenges and Choices

The dialogue shifts to the intricacies of acting and the importance of taking creative risks. Nathan emphasizes authenticity in performance, stating at [40:18], “the through line is you're trying to be truthful with it.” The hosts discuss the balance between adhering to a script and allowing spontaneity, with Nathan sharing his approach to embracing unexpected moments during filming. This philosophy echoes throughout the episode, encapsulated by Mike’s favorite quote from Nathan at [55:51]: “The safest thing you can do is take a risk.”

New Ventures: “Mid Century Modern”

Nathan introduces his latest project, the Hulu series “Mid Century Modern,” detailing his role as Bunny Schneiderman, a wealthy manufacturer of women’s bras. He describes the fast-paced development process and the collaborative spirit of working with director Jimmy Burrows. Nathan shares a heartfelt moment regarding the passing of co-star Linda Lavin, recounting her final days and the profound loss felt by the cast and crew. This segment underscores the deep emotional connections formed during long-term projects and the impact of personal loss on professional endeavors.

Personal Stories and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, both Mike and Nathan interweave personal stories that humanize their professional personas. Nathan reminisces about his early days in theater, including playing Benjamin Franklin in “1776” and Nathan Detroit in “Guys and Dolls,” which ultimately inspired his stage name. At [13:44], he humorously recounts, “I'll be Benjamin or Nathan Lane,” highlighting the serendipitous nature of his career path.

Mike shares a pivotal moment from his appearance on “The View,” where Joy Behar’s endorsement served as a turning point in his relationship with his mother regarding his comedy career. Nathan listens and provides supportive commentary, reinforcing the theme of familial support and affirmation in creative pursuits.

Philosophies on Acting and Risk-Taking

The conversation delves into the philosophical aspects of acting, with both hosts advocating for taking risks to achieve authentic performances. Nathan elaborates on his approach to embodying characters, seeking the “humanity in it” and the balance between light and darkness in storytelling. Mike echoes this sentiment, reinforcing the idea that embracing uncertainty leads to meaningful and impactful work.

Concluding Reflections

As the episode draws to a close, Mike and Nathan express mutual admiration and gratitude for their enduring friendship. Nathan acknowledges Mike’s significant influence on his career, while Mike lauds Nathan as “one of the greats of the greats.” They encourage listeners to engage with Nathan’s latest projects and reflect on the shared insights about creativity, risk-taking, and the importance of supportive relationships in the world of entertainment.

Notable Quotes

• Nathan Lane at [03:38]: “How do you do well? You've been doing comedy a long time so you build a large Rolodex of friends.”

• Nathan Lane at [25:22]: “He said, but dear boy, could you just do one as written? Oh, my God, as written.”

• Robin Williams at [32:00]: “Robin was very professional… he was just an incredible person, and I'm lucky that I got to work with him.”

• Nathan Lane at [55:51]: “The safest thing you can do is take a risk.”

Final Thoughts

Episode 161 of “Working It Out” with Nathan Lane offers a comprehensive exploration of an actor’s journey through friendship, professional collaborations, and the courage to take creative risks. Mike Birbiglia masterfully navigates the conversation, allowing listeners to uncover the layers of Nathan’s experiences and philosophies. This episode serves as an inspiring testament to the enduring power of friendship and the relentless pursuit of authenticity in the arts.

Transcript

[A]

Who is someone you're jealous of?

[B]

Well, that's not fair to ask someone in show business that. Well, let me get out my list.

[A]

That is the voice of the great Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane returns, but this time to the studio. This is, this is as excited as I have been and nervous for that matter. Even though Nathan's my friend for many, many years, I'm just in awe of his talent. You might know he presented my very first Off Broadway show Sleepwalk with me in 2008. He has been a huge guiding light in my career and in my life and one of the great American actors. He is in a new series called Mid Century Modern that comes out on Hulu March 28th. I am thrilled about it. We talk about that today. We talk about all kinds of acting roles he's done over the years and man, does he have great stories. I just love, love, love this episode. By the way, thanks to everyone who has come out to my final shows leading up to six shows at the Beacon Theater. I've been working recently with my director Seth Barish and our set designer Beowulf Barrett, who brilliant set designer, did Old man in the Pool and the new one and actually all my shows are lighting designer Aaron Cop. We just have a great artistic team for this show at the Beacon. Six shows March 16 through 22. Thanks to everybody who came out in Northampton and Burlington. I'm doing a few shows in Los Angeles at Largo and I appreciate it so much. I love this chat with Nathan today. We talk about Robin Williams, we talk about the Bird Cage and Mike Nichols and a film, two films that he was in that I love. One is Beau is Afraid and one is Dick's the Musical. If you haven't seen those, I highly recommend them. Beau is Afraid is starring Joaquin Phoenix. It's actually one of my favorite movies in years. And Dick's the Musical is an absolute riot. So I recommend those as well as Midcentury Modern. Enjoy my chat with the great Nathan Lane. Last time I saw you, you were making fun of me because when we were out to dinner with your husband Devlin and my wife Jenny, because you think I you said that. I'm friends with everyone who's on my podcast and you were like, how many more friends do you have? How do you know everyone so well?

[B]

How do you do well? You've been doing comedy a long time so you build a large Rolodex of friends.

[A]

Know what it is though? I was thinking about it cuz it, it's, I think because comedians were. We wait Back to. Back at the. At the comedy clubs for, you know, there's a lineup of five or six people, and so you're just, like, waiting upstairs, so you just talk to me. Yeah, but, you know, everybody.

[B]

I don't know everybody, but I did the. The Conan, you know, needs a friend podcast, which I. And the. The whole notion of friendship and. Or a best friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I find interesting because I think, you know, I mean, I always think my best friend is Devlin, my husband.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. But that, you know, when I was a kid, you know, having a best friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think I ever had a best friend. And. And then one time I thought I had a best friend and I found out I really wasn't. It was. Was somebody else.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

Yeah. I thought I had gotten the part, and then they told me that. No, they went another way. So it's interesting. The best friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who's your. Who's your. Like. Like, Matthew Broderick's best friend? He's. Was. Is the playwright Kenny Lonergan.

[A]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[B]

You know, from childhood.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. I sort of slightly envy that, you know, that. That kind of.

[A]

I envy it, too. I think adult friendship is so complex. Even you and I have been friends since 2008, which is many, many years ago, and I feel like I. This is nothing. I was planning to say you don't.

[B]

Know me at all.

[A]

No, no, I feel like I do know you. I feel like I can call you, which is a thing that you extend to yourself in that way that you. It makes it feel like, oh, I could always call you if I was in a jammer. In trouble. But I think the gray area of friendship as a grownup is when do. When should you call someone versus, like, can you call?

[B]

Well, you've fallen and you can't get up.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's. That's the only instance I can think of for sure that you can, you.

[B]

Know, if you want to talk through something or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or just to check in, you know, and tell someone. You know, tell someone you love them.

[A]

Yeah. Do I call you enough?

[B]

No.

[A]

Should I call more often?

[B]

Well, I don't wanna. Don't be a pest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But. No, I'm kidding. You know, you're a busy guy. I'm occasionally busy, so.

[A]

You're not occasionally busy. You're always busy. You work more than any actor I know.

[B]

That's not true, but I mean, everything. No. Who did I just see? Oh, yeah, I was watching John Lithgow. I saw him and I went, this guy is an im. He's in everything. But no, I'm always happy. No, I'm always happy to hear from someone you care about and love and want to. It's. No, no, I don't. I don't think. I'm not. I'm not. You know, I don't have a clicker going. He hasn't. You know, he only called me three times this month.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you started calling me a lot, I'd be worried. I think something. Something's gone horribly wrong.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Calling me for advice.

[A]

You were at SNL 50. You performed in John Mulaney's musical.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which was hilarious. Were you. So you see a lot of people there. You see probably a lot of friends.

[B]

Some. But yeah, the most intimidating room I have ever been in.

[A]

Outrageous.

[B]

And I've been to the Oscars and big events, but this was something.

[A]

Did it stress you out?

[B]

Sure. Look, I'm getting stressed. Just the memory of it. I was going as a guest, you know, because you've hosted the show. I hosted it 20 years in 1997. I was hot for 20 minutes and I was asked to host. I'm a member of the One Timers Club, which. And I gotta say, there's more of us than the Five Timers. So we could have a rally and maybe. Maybe go to.

[A]

Maybe win the popular votes.

[B]

Go to number two. It was something. It came up. Look, it was an incredible two days of, you know, the rehearsing of it. It was only, you know, the kindness of John Mulaney saying, I'd like Nathan to be in the sketch and do this little cameo. And so I was like, oh, well, it'll be nerve wracking, but you know how I was so honored to be asked and what an historic night that will be. And so I, you know, but just. It was like I said to somebody, it was like, you know, walking into the television set and seeing all these people from past and present casts and just. And all of the other famous people over there and just being able to say how much, you know, you've loved them and what they've done and how they've made you laugh or however they've touched you. And. Yeah, it was astonishing.

[A]

Is there anyone you get intimidated by in a room?

[B]

Everybody. I'm very starstruck and I'm very, very.

[A]

No one's buying.

[B]

Nervous.

[A]

No one's buying.

[B]

Well, it's shocking, you know, when you meet somebody like Leslie Jones. I've always wanted to meet Leslie Jones. I think she's hilarious. She just kills me. And there she was. She was standing there, and I finally. I had seen her, like, at the rehearsal, but I get too nervous. And then there she was. And I said, oh, I just. I have to say how much I love. And she went crazy. You know, I wouldn't think I would be on Leslie Jones's list radar, and yet I would, but go ahead. She was totally. It was just. It was such a pleasure, you know. You know, Lady Gaga. We're walking out, Devlin and I, and Lady Gaga turned to me and said, oh, I love you. And I was like, oh, my God, it's Lady Gaga. I don't.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

I love you, too. It was a lot of that. Yeah. An unforgettable couple of days. And I was just thrilled to be a small part of it.

[A]

You say that you get intimidated by people, but I just don't believe it somehow. I feel like it strains credibility.

[B]

I don't know. It's something. It goes back to my mother. It's like, I don't, you know, some. I'm not worthy. I don't belong here, and they're gonna find me out. Kind of, you know, sad. There was vestiges of it. You know, you try to deal with those feelings, but it's intimidating.

[A]

Did your mom see you get successful?

[B]

Yes, she did. Sure.

[A]

Was that satisfying?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you know, with her, you know, she was bipolar, and so the notion of trying to make her happy, she had not had a happy life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so in those later years, just wanting you, saying, what can I do for you? How can I. Yeah. You know, trying to make her life better or. And there was very little you. You could do that would do that, because essentially, all she really ever wanted was for all of us to be together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Living together.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

You know, the whole. You know, me and my two brothers, that's really all she wanted. And, you know, it was that thing. I remember seeing this in a Jules Pfeiffer play, Grownups, where she would. You would be there, and she would say, when am I gonna see you again? And you would go, I'm here. Look, you know, I'm here right now. You're seeing me now.

[A]

I relate to that so much. That's. That's my dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. You visit, and then you're leaving, and he said, we should spend time together sometime. No, this is. We're here. This is what we're doing.

[B]

Right. And. Yeah. You know, I have a. I have a. There's a Memory of me leaving one time visiting her, and she just, she grabbed my hand and she squeezed it and she said, I hate to see you go.

[A]

That's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, and. But yeah, I mean, I think that my success was very meaningful for her and she was very proud of that. And, and yeah, she saw you become.

[A]

Nathan Lane from Jolie.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Did she like that?

[B]

Well, when she would call me Nathan, it was like there were quotation marks around it. Nathan, Nathan. But most of the time she called me Joe.

[A]

And you did it for Actor's Equity, basically because there already was a Jolie.

[B]

Yeah, Jo Lane. I remember years later they Actors Equity contacted me to say I, you could have the name now. And I said, well, it's, it's a little late for me to go from, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not Prince. Yeah, yeah, I got the man formerly known as Nathan Lane now, Joe. So no, it wasn't a good career move, but yeah, no, there was already a Joseph Lane.

[A]

Did you think of, was it spur the moment when you were signing up for Actors Equity that you came up with Nathan or were you thinking about it for a bit?

[B]

No, I went, you know, to join. I was eligible to join. And then that's when they told me and it was sort of like it was slapped in the face. I couldn't be Joseph Lane. And I guess I looked stricken. And the woman said, it's okay, take your time. You think about it, come back. And I said, you know, but I said, no, no, just give me a couple of minutes. And I went and I sat down and it's only because I had done. I had been, you know, working in non equity theater and I'd done a lot of shows and plays and musicals and I had played at age 19, I played Benjamin Franklin in 1776 in summer stock. And then I had played Nathan Detroit in a dinner theater production of Guys and Dolls. And I said, I'll either be Benjamin or Nathan Lane. And then I thought Nathan Lane had a better rhythm. And I went over and said, I'll be Nathan Lane.

[A]

Does it feel. Does it feel like you now?

[B]

Yes, it does.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Jolain. Feels like a long time ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But believe me, Nathan had lots of problems too. Was it like that was some. The magical ice cream suit. Now that I'm Nathan Leg.

[A]

The magical ice cream suit. Oh, gosh. So one of the things that I like that you did, you did two movies that were far out that I loved in the Same year Bo Is Afraid and Dick's the Musical.

[B]

It doesn't get more far out than that.

[A]

They're both so far out. Two of my favorite movies in a long time, and you're fantastic in both of them.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

And I feel like it says a lot, I think about now.

[B]

There was a New York Times piece, this guy who was the nicest guy, very indebted to him. Kyle Buchanan wrote this piece because of those two films. And the title said, hollywood finally figures out what to do with Nathan Lane.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

And I just like to say, not.

[A]

Really.

[B]

But it was fun for a minute.

[A]

It was interesting, though, because it's like. Because there's very few actors, period, where you go, I'll see whatever they do. I feel like it's almost like a bygone era, and I feel like. I feel like you have that. I think you have an unbelievable talent, not just for being a tremendous actor, but choosing projects that are pretty far out. I mean, how do you.

[B]

It's not like I get a lot of choices, you know, that. That came up again. This Strange Beau is Afraid came up. And I was. I knew the name Ari Aster. I had not seen. At that point. I had not seen Hereditary or Mid. How do they pronounce? Midsommar?

[A]

Midsommar.

[B]

Yeah, Midsommar. I hadn't seen them, but I knew that he had been acclaimed and that he was, you know, this, you know, new talent that people were talking about. And. And so I. So I did watch the films, and, you know, they're. They were incredible. And then, you know, I was. I sent this script and. And, you know, I'm reading it, and I'm thinking, oh, this is. He must have been on mushrooms when he wrote this or something. You know, this is, you know, crazy.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And it. But the original. Originally, it was like a fake title, but it was called Disappointment Boulevard.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

And so I said to my agents, well, this is. I, you know, it's hard to make sense of this. And. But, you know, he's. You know, I'm happy, you know, to talk to him. And. And he. He had written me this beautiful note and said, this is. Oh, my God, you know, you're my first choice for this part. And I, you know, so. And I knew Joaquin Phoenix was doing it, and I, you know, he's. I think he's one of our greatest actors in film. So, you know, we had a great talk. And then I said, yeah, sure. You know, it was. And it was just, you Know, kind of figuring out the tone of that. And that was interesting to, you know, beginning that, shooting that stuff and finding our way.

[A]

And I remember you came back because I saw you after you filmed it, and you were basically like, very strange movie. We'll see how it goes, how it comes out. But you loved Joaquin.

[B]

Oh, I loved Joaquin. I loved them. I, you know, and I was. Ari, I loved working with Joaquin is just. He would. I remember at one point, Ari just said to me, he's not going to say the lines that are there. So just your objective is to keep him in your house and just say whatever you need to get him to stay in your.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

In your house. And he said, and if he can work in a couple of lines that I wrote, that would be great.

[A]

Oh, that's amazing.

[B]

And I said, sure, I could do that.

[A]

Is he like, oh, okay. That's why I think people find him challenging sometimes to work with Joaquin. Is that he, like. Like you're saying doesn't necessarily say it a lot.

[B]

We shot the first day with him, myself and Amy Ryan, who's a very old friend of mine. Oh, yeah. Brilliant actress. Who I. This was the first time we finally get. Got to work together playing husband and wife. So that was. That felt great. And. But the first, we shot for three hours in this, you know, our teenage daughter's bedroom and with stuffed animals and boy band posters, you know, and Joaquin was like, you know, and this is the setup for our characters. But he's playing the truth of. I've just. I've been in an accident, and he's like Olivia de Havilland encaged. And so we shot for three hours and I thought, well, we could barely. But we could barely get our lines in.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

And I. And then I thought, I don't know about that. And then. So I texted Ari. It was at lunchtime. I texted her and I said, hey, it's your movie. You could do whatever you want. But, you know, when I read this, it's. It seemed to be darkly funny. And this is the introduction to our characters. And I. I couldn't get any of the lines in, so I said, you know, that's all I'm going to say, but, you know, whatever you want to do. So he texted me back and he said, no, I didn't. I don't think that went well. And Joaquin is not happy either. And I said. And then we went back. So Joaquin Phoenix, I don't know him. I just, you know, I just admired. I've admired him from afar. So we sit and we're talking. And we're talking, you know, now. And we. Now. Three hours out the window, right?

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

So now we're back.

[A]

Footage that you're probably not gonna use. Yeah.

[B]

So now we're back and we're talking about the scene. And I finally said, look, Joaquin, we don't know each other, but. And I don't know how to break this to you, but I think this is supposed to be funny. I said, listen, you know, we're coming out of 45 minutes of you in the Kafkaesque opening. That's horrifying. And I said, and then everyone should think, now you're safe in suburbia with these nice people. But something's a little off. And, you know, as written. You know what. What I think what Ari wrote is funny. And you're speaking in kind of like he was speaking. You know, the lines were written. It was like baby talk because he's so. We've so heavily medicated him, right?

[A]

What?

[B]

This leg here. What? You know, it was like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I said, listen, you should. So I tried to give him a bit of business. I said, you know, take one of those stuffed animals and put it under you. And then when you have to make that weird noise, you know, I said, just pull it out and stare at it.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So he started to laugh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he said, oh, I can't do that. I said, so why not? You want an Oscar? Just put your mind to it. So he started laughing and laughing, laughing. So. And then we were, like, home free. Then everybody loosened up and we started to play the scene. And then he said to me, I can't look you in the eye or I'm going to laugh. He said, every. Cause I. Then once they saw you as fine, they put the camera on me. I was, you know, improvising and just saying things to see what reaction I would get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. But he was a delight. And he was, you know, he's passionate and committed. And, you know, as Ari would say, he. You know, he can only be truthful.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if it doesn't feel real to him, he can't do it. And. And he was. No. He's a remarkable actor and a. A total sweetheart and totally not, you know, he's not pretentious. It's about the work. And it's not. I'm not some big movie star who's, you know, won the Academy Award. It's just, how do we make sense of this? And so I. So I just. I Just loved that experience. You know, it was only. It was very brief, so. But I had a great time.

[A]

That is. That's a great example of that. Movies. I feel like a lot of times, you know, you see the director of a movie when an Oscar or the writer or this or that, and they go, no, no, it was. Everybody in that. It really is a very hard thing to describe to people. Even, like, your story about Beau is afraid, I think, encapsulates that is, like, you're an actor, you've worked for so long, and you've done a million things, and you're like, hey, just gonna throw in my two cents.

[B]

Well, I just thought we weren't. I was sort of reminding Ari that this is what you wrote.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, and we're not. We're going. I don't know where we're going, but it's not. And what you wrote is really good, and it's funny in this very dark way, and we shouldn't be afraid of that.

[A]

Do you remember other films or plays over the years where you did that, where you're in it and you have to remind the principals, like, hey, we were gonna do this, and we should probably do that.

[B]

It doesn't. Well, that doesn't happen often. You know, I could remember. This is the only first thing that came to mind when you said that was. There was this. In the birdcage, the word fag was. Was used a couple of times. And I. It's. And sometimes it was, like, directly from the old French play. Oh, right. You know. Yeah, it was a punchline. And there was. And there was this. And I had to say, you know, Alexander the Great was a fag. And I. You know, and I kept. And I finally went to Mike Nichols and said, you know, this makes me a little uncomfortable. You know, and it just. There's other ways of saying this, certainly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And. And he was like, you know. Yes. He said. And. And so, you know, and I gave him examples of what it could be and, you know, another way of saying that. And. And he said. And. And I said, you know, it's. You know, and as the only fag in the real fag in the scene. Yeah, I. I would rather not say fag. Sure. And he said, I understand. And then he said, you know, but I. This was a job that was like. I was just thrilled to be asked to this part.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

[B]

You know, and so I. And he's Mike Nichols.

[A]

He's Mike Nichols, and it's a huge break.

[B]

He's like, yes.

[A]

He's like, God, this is in the 90s.

[B]

So. And he said, but, dear boy, could you just do one as written? Oh, my God, as written. And I was like, oh, sure, of course. That's what's in the movie.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

You know, it was weird. He wouldn't let, you know, Mike Nichols and Elaine May, two of the most sophisticated, most brilliant minds ever. And yet I always felt like, because they came from another generation where that word was a punchline and it was allowed and it was okay. And for some reason, he wouldn't let go of it, or he wouldn't let Robin refer to me as his husband. I was referred to as his wife. He wouldn't let him call me my partner. And maybe it was that the notion of, I want this to be a big mainstream hit and I don't want to offend anybody, but, you know, you think, then we're making the. It's 1995 or 6. Whenever we. 95, we were making it, you know, it's. It's a. This is a game. This is a gay story. You know, when I saw it as a kid, when I had first moved to New York in the late 70s, it was. That movie was playing on the Upper east side for over a year. It was the most successful foreign film at the time. And, yeah, I remember seeing it. I thought it was hilarious. And. And. And I just thought, oh, it's so subversive. It's a French farce. But, you know, the gay people are the heroes, right in this. And so, yeah, I mean, look, I'm telling this story, but, you know, I have to say that it was, you know, it was a tremendous experience. And they, Mike and Elaine were incredibly kind to me. And. But it was a weird. It was a stumbling point that I just. I was like, why is. Why are they hanging on to this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

This word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's hard. Is it because they come from another generation? And. I don't know, it was awkward for a moment and then, you know. But in an otherwise great, very happy, joyous experience, I asked Elaine.

[A]

I met Elaine May recently, and I said to her just briefly, and I said, I've read in books over the years about you and Mike Nichols that you. That he would stick to his lines when you did the Broadway two person show, and that you would just make it different every night. And she goes, don't believe anything anyone writes unless they were there. Do you feel like anything people have written about you over the years is not quite right? Or people get you wrong. Ever?

[B]

All the time. In what way? I've read interviews where literally, I didn't say any of it. Where they obviously thought, I can write something better than what he said on my tape recording. True. I mean, literally, like a paragraph that I did not think. I mean, that's outrageous. People characterize you. You know, I think because there have been times when I'm like, I am. I know it's at my age when I'm near death and I'm still shy. Shy. It doesn't hold up well my. In my age range. But, you know, people could take that as being standoffish or like, well, what's his deal? You know, I know I just totally. Or just things attributed to me that I didn't say or. Or do what was attributed that you didn't say?

[A]

Do you remember?

[B]

I don't know. You have to.

[A]

You have to look up and.

[B]

Yeah, let me bring in my lawyer. I know this.

[A]

Stuart, get in here.

[B]

He has all the files.

[A]

So when you work with these directors and Mike Nichols and Ari Aster and, I mean, you've worked with just Mel Brooks. I mean, you've worked with unbelievable people. What do you. What's your favorite quality in a director, as an actor?

[B]

You know, they're. They're the best ones usually don't say much. Not that I. And I like direction. I like, you know, hearing thoughts about what's happening. Yeah. You know, it's a bit of being a father figure, a therapist. And, you know, the director is. For each person, it's a little different however they work and what it is they're doing. But it's, you know. You know, it's sort of the Clint Eastwood notion is he's cast you for a reason.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's not here to teach you how to act or how to play a scene. He assumes you've done your homework. It's a big assumption because not everyone does their homework. But it's an assumption that you're a professional. You're gonna show up on time and know your material and have a point of view about it. And then only if he feels you've gone off on the wrong path. Will he say something? Yeah, it really depends. I mean, I like. I don't. You know, some people don't. They don't want to hear notes or any of that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, they just want to. And they don't want to even rehearse. And in film, I kind of get that they want to. Let's see what happens. Right. We're all Looking for that happy accident.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That is. That's real. And was unexpected.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what you're trying to capture on film.

[A]

I'm guessing you had that to some extent with Robin Williams on Birdcage. Because Robin seems like he didn't stick to a script that often.

[B]

Well, no, no, he was. Robin was very professional. But what we rehearsed and then Mike had said to us, just, you know, feel free to improvise while we're rehearsing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, even though he was very protective of Elaine's script, he would usually say he would give us, you know, a free take, you know, to get it out of our system.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And out of that, things came. Yeah, for sure. Little moments. And. No, Robin was. I mean, if, you know, he liked that, if he did go somewhere, I would go with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and we would. You know, and we were kindred spirits in that way. We were both sort of like needy children who just wanted to please Daddy. And he was. But he was, you know, Robin. You know, he made it a very happy atmosphere and joyous and kept people's energy up and entertained in between takes, you know, and he was so, you know, kind and generous and loving and, you know, I can remember doing. I had to. There was a musical number that was eventually cut, but I did a number in the club. And so he had the day off. And I remember he came in and. And I said, what are you doing here? I'm just doing this all day. And he said. He said, I want to be here for you. I want to support you. Oh, he. You know, he was. You know, he was just an incredible person, and I'm lucky that I got to work with him.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, we say. But I. I only met Robin a few times, but when we. We did that Wounded warriors benefit of the Beacon, he would. All of these soldiers who had been injured and had these severe injuries, he would go around and he would be the Robin Williams that people dreamed of meeting.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Which, of course, in show business, you never really get that from anybody because they're performing on camera or on stage, and then they're human beings. But he was the Robin Williams from the movies.

[B]

Yes. He would do that for you, for people who needed it or, you know, he knew that was part of his job and. But, yeah, I also just remember quiet moments with him, and he was a very. Such a sensitive soul. So dear. And. And, you know, I think. And easily hurt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and just, you know, incredible. And we always sort of I can't say that we became close friends. We would keep in touch and. But we always had that bond of having done that film. And it was, you know, it bec was a success and it was just a very fond memory for, I think, for everyone involved.

[A]

So you did Beau is Afraid and Dick's the Musical in the same year? Yeah, Jenny and I went to Dix the Musical. We were going through a lot of personal stuff at the time that was really challenging with our families. And we went to the theater and saw Dick's musical. And I, I don't remember laughing as hard at a movie in the theater as I did at that movie. And it was such a gift of a movie. It is so insane.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is insane.

[A]

And the guys who made the movie, I mean, you really took a chance on them because they hadn't, to my knowledge, made a feature film.

[B]

Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson came from ucb.

[A]

Yeah, they came from UCB and they.

[B]

And there was a whole, you know, sort of gay contingent of ucb. You know, Bowen Yang, Matt Rogers was. Julio Torres. Was he, he was just doing stand.

[A]

Up, but he might have been in the scene. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, but no, it was, it was sent and I, I was like, well, I couldn't, I can't do this. You know, because your character, just to.

[A]

Give context, your character, I want to say, eats ham.

[B]

No, this, he has these creatures, he has these pets, okay, that are called the sewer boys that he obviously found in the sewer. And he keeps them in a cage in his living room and they eat deli meat and they're these strange, they're like, you know, they have tails and they're these odd sort of little dragon like urchin.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're creepy. They're very creepy. But he loves them and he feeds they like deli meat and he feeds. So you have to. And he would feed them like bird baby, like a mother bird. And so you would, I would have to chew up the deli meat and spit it into their mouth. That's what that was the much talked about the scene anyway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like, I don't know about this. And then they said Larry Charles was going to direct it. Yeah, and I loved Larry Charles and so I, I, I had a zoom with him. And then I said, look, I was still sort of on the fence and I said, I, I need to meet these two young guys and just talk about this. And, and so we had this dinner that went on for like four hours and several Cosmopolitans later, I said, well, I guess we're making a movie. Well, they were like, you know, the gay sons I never had. And they're. They're. They're. They're brilliant guys. They're really smart and really funny. And, you know, as they always. I think it was. Aaron always said, you know, we're not making this for the people, for people to upset people. We're not making it for people who won't like it. We're making it for the people who will like it.

[A]

Right. Oh, that's an interesting way.

[B]

Want. This is kind of outrageous. And, you know, and they look, I admire the audaciousness of this and especially. Well, even more so now, but at the time, it was just, you know, when books are being banned and, you know, you don't say this, don't say gay. Don't do that. And I just thought. And they don't care. They just.

[A]

Well, they clearly don't.

[B]

They just don't care is a line. And interestingly, as it goes, I don't.

[A]

Want to give away where the story.

[B]

Goes, but connecting back to the word fag or faggot. Yeah, those folks are. You know, that was used in that movie. Bowen Yang played goth.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And they all sang a song. We all sang. I should include myself. We all sang a song. I had nothing to do with it. I was not involved. I was not involved at all. I was nowhere to be seen. We all sang a song called All Love is Love. This is when the twins decide the only person, you know, they realize they love each other even more profoundly. And spoiler alert. And they get married and they sing. They all sing a song called God sings a song called All Love is Love. And at the end, he says, you know, God is saying, I'm everything. I'm black, I'm white. I'm this. I'm rich, I'm poor, you know, and I'm gay. I'm straight. And they said, you're gay. God is gay. So in the lyrics, as it goes, don't you want to see the movie now? In the lyrics, we'll turn this into a cult film. Yet they sing, all love is love. All love is love. God is a faggot and all love is love.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So they're sort of reclaiming the word faggot, Right? And, you know, and I was, you know, and so I was like, oh, that's. Cause that word has always made me uncomfortable. But having been called it. So I sort of got what they were doing, and I kind of then. And by the fifth time they sang God is a Faggot, I started laughing. That's what it took.

[A]

It took five times.

[B]

Sometimes it's just repetition that can do it. Anyway, I think they're brilliant and original, and I just thought, sure, I want to be a part of this.

[A]

What do you. It's like when you do Angels in America, which is one of the greatest American plays. It's sort of an epic play. And then you do Dix the Musical, which is this completely irreverent, wild film, you know, Beau is afraid, very experimental. Like, what do you. What do you see as the through line, as an actor in all of those things? Is there a through line of being an actor in all those things?

[B]

Well, the through line is you're, you know, you. You are trying to be truthful with it. So, you know, you're looking for the, you know, the humanity in it or the, you know, the. The. The heart of it. At times, you know, I think there's, you know, it depends on what it is you're doing, you know, And Beau was afraid. It was just. I liked that he was this suburban dad who, you know, said things like, why did he keep calling him my brother? You know, who thought he was being hip? Or he was sort of this corny dad. And yet there's a moment in it that I really liked when I'm trying to get Joaquin to say something, and you see, there's something much darker at play. Just for a second. You see that. You know, when you look for those kinds of, you know, with a character like that, you're looking for that. That moment, you know, the darkness and the light or the.

[A]

When you're in that.

[B]

Or the humor in the sadness or tragedy.

[A]

When you're in that scene where you say you see a glimpse of the kind of darkness of the character, do you. Will you say to the director, hey.

[B]

I'm catching my glimpse of darkness.

[A]

Will you catch that in this one?

[B]

No, no, you just drop it in. Someone of the caliber of Ari Aster.

[A]

Someone'S going to catch it.

[B]

Who is actually. Who's written it right, Knows. Knows that. That that's what's happen. Might be happening.

[A]

Do you ever ask for another take for that, though?

[B]

I'll. I'll do as many. I love doing a lot of takes.

[A]

Do you ever ask.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Can I have another.

[B]

You know, it's like they always talk about Dairo is like, not that I'm comparing myself to him, but they heard the comparison. Yeah, but it was in there? Yeah. Oh, Bobby and I go way back, so. But there was, you know, he, like, uses takes to. To warm up, so he'll do a lot. He'll do. He likes to do a lot, apparently. You know, I've never done a film with him, but I think they're talking.

[A]

About Meet the Fockers four. So there might be a role in that.

[B]

Might be. Finally. Okay, I'm. I'm. I'm game just to say I worked with him. Yeah, I think you. You know, there are people who, like, this is it. They. They got two. If they, you know, like. I don't know. I. I can remember interviews, right. Or Morgan Freeman. If you need more than two takes, then something's wrong. And I think, oh, I don't know about that, but I come from the theater. I like to rehearse. And so there's that part of me. But I understand from a film point of view, it's like, this is it. And then you peek about, maybe take three, but I don't know. Then there's David Fincher, who likes to do 57 takes.

[A]

I know. Bombach. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know that it goes on and on where you think you're losing your mind. And, you know, it's the old Billy Wilder saying to Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon, you know, because Marilyn Monroe just. To get one take where she said the right thing or did the right line or whatever it was he wanted, he said to them, you have to be great in every take, because whenever she gets it right, that's the one I'm going to use.

[A]

That is.

[B]

That's a lot of pressure.

[A]

That's a lot of pressure.

[B]

Yeah. Be funny.

[A]

So you're in a new series called Mid Century Modern. It's on Hulu. It's just about to come out. How did you get involved with it?

[B]

This is all. Ryan Murphy, you know, became my guardian angel in my third act. And he called me and said. And just the fact that he called me was shocking. He called me and said, I want to send you a script. It's written by Max Muchnick and David Cohan, who created Will and Grace. He said, I've never done a multicam before, but he said, I read this script, and I just. I thought it was hilarious, and I loved it. And they've kind of written this character with you in mind. Then I read it, and it was hilarious. So I said, yeah, sure. I play a character named Bunny Schneiderman, who is a very, very wealthy, successful manufacturer of women's bras. And he Has a chain of stores across the country called the Bunny Hutch. And he lives in Palm Springs with his mother, Sybil. And it opens at a funeral. A very close friend of his and his other two friends, played by Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham. And they come back to his house afterward, and they're talking and they're having a great time. And he's sort of. He's, you know, obviously an older gentleman and kind of lonely at this point in his life. He's never had a great love in his life. And he says, why can't this be the rest of our lives? He lives in this big house, and one is an airline. Matt plays an airline steward named Jerry, and Nathan Lee Graham plays a man named Arthur Broussard, who comes from the world of fashion. And Anna Wintour has just fired him being to opinionate it. And so they eventually do. And that's sort of where the series goes. And Jimmy Burrows, the legendary Jimmy burroughs, directed all 10.

[A]

That's astonishing. That's astonishing to me.

[B]

It all happened very fast. We did a pilot, and then almost immediately, a few months later, we were doing the first season.

[A]

Just to put this in context, that's Ryan Murphy. Jim Burrows. Jimmy Burrows is the same Jim Burrows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who did Cheers.

[B]

Cheers. Co created Cheers. Directed a lot of. I think he directed. He directed all of Will and Grace.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Friends, pilots.

[A]

I mean, he's just a legend.

[B]

He goes back to the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

[A]

He did. Yeah, he did Mary Tyler Moore.

[B]

It's been the happiest experience I've had in television. And he said, do you believe we got this lucky again with this group of people? And he said, I just want to do this show for the rest of my life. And, you know, for someone like him, you know, it's so moving. And it's just been. The whole thing has been joyous. Matt and Nathan Lee. And then in the midst of all of this, Linda Lavin, who was playing my mother, died, which was a shock and devastating. And she was. Linda was. You know, she was certainly a beloved figure in the theater. And we. I didn't. We weren't like close friends beforehand, but whenever I was, I was just a fan. And I would see her and we would always say, I hope we get to work together someday. So this was very special. And we became. We became very close doing this. And, you know, she had been diagnosed with lung cancer, and so she had called me. This was the day after Christmas, and we were supposed to go back in like a week or so to finish Filming and to tell me this. And she said, but they're gonna start radiation. They feel like it's still work, and I'll be tired, but I'll be able to do. And I said, look, it's whatever you need to do. And, you know, it's just. It's just a TV show. Your health is the most important thing, but, you know, we'll do whatever we can and don't worry about any. And. And I was able just to say, you know, how much I loved her. And then. And then, literally, like three days later, she wasn't. She said to her husband she wasn't feeling right. And they called her doctor, and he said, come in. And he. That was there. He's at Cedars. And so they were driving from Malibu to Cedars, and one of the tumors was obstructing her airways, so her breathing had become labored. And so on the way there, she said to him, you know, I want you to live your life. And he said, oh, I am living my life. She said, I just want you to know, if I die, I want you to know how much I love you. And he said, I know, and I love you, too. And then her breathing was labored, and she lowered the window and her heart stopped and she died. And, yeah, I miss her every day. And she was such a huge part of it and. And so brilliantly funny. Such a brilliant.

[A]

It seems like in some ways that series seems like such a perfect fit for all that you've been doing your whole career, because you have the live studio audience and it's film.

[B]

Well, my past in the multicam has been dicey, to say the least, and so I've avoided it and now, you know, to do it with some of the best people who've ever done it, yeah, it's a very different experience, but, yeah, other than that, yeah, it has been just the best experience I've ever had in television. And everybody gets along and everybody. But I. You know, I think we all set out to do that, to make it a place where you. You feel good about what you're doing.

[A]

Yeah, this is. This is called the Slow Round. Who is someone you're jealous of?

[B]

Well, that's not fair to ask someone in show business that. Well, let me get out my list. Who am I jealous of? You know, I'm. I'm not. I was a little jealous when I heard Lithgow was going to. They've asked him to play Dumbledore in. In the Harry Potter series for hbo. I thought, yeah, that's A good gig that's gonna go for a while, no matter what. Even if it stinks, it's gonna go. No. You know, I'm at a point now I feel like I'm. And people seem to have been concerned over the years about my happiness, but I'm sort of. People have written articles about it anyway. I certainly the happiest I've ever been in my personal life and in my professional life. And, you know, I'm just very, I feel very lucky. And the follow up question is, who.

[A]

Are you jealous of that you thought of when I asked the question but didn't say.

[B]

No? I, you know, I honestly, Devlin could probably tell you. He's probably heard me say, I'll ask, devil, mention a name. But I, you know, it's like I don't really have that. Yeah, I mean, there's a part of me that would like. I'm very happy where I am and what I've achieved, but there is a part of me that I wouldn't mind if I had got to have a little more of a career in film. So, I don't know, there's this sort of, I think there's this sort of general feeling of me being this, you know, whatever. General feeling is a general feeling that it's like, it's, you know, it's why they, in film, it's, you know, you're gonna play, you know, somebody's agent, you know, get him, you know, it's that or there's a. It has to do with some notion of me because I, I've had a, also a career in musical theater that I'm, there's, it's big, it's mermanesque, it's whatever, whatever you want to call it. And you know that. I think I've, I've shifted that perception. Yeah, you've completely shifted because you've played over the last.

[A]

The difference, the roles you've played in the last two decades is unbelievable.

[B]

I could, I could give you evidence, your honor. I could show you that there is a range, but I think people want to categorize you. They want to put you in a box and they don't want you to get out of the box, of course, but I was able to dig a hole in the corner of the box and I got out.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

Now I'm in another box down the street. Well, I know. Well, that's, I'm still trying to figure that out.

[A]

Has your life gone the way you expected it to?

[B]

Oh, better. Better, yeah. Things like you Know you. I have so many things that I, I, you know, you was more than you could have hoped for. The. Just, you know. But there was this strange. I also had this strange. For all of the fear, I had this strange thing as a kid that I saw it as. I somehow knew it was gonna work out. This strange. There's also this part of me, this strange. I don't know if it's even confidence, but just sort of like I could see it like a movie. And I would say to myself, well, this is. Now I'm in the beginning of the movie, and it's, you know, and I'm a starving actor in New York. Sure. You know, I don't have any money, and I'm. I was once so hungry, I stole a. Like a grapefruit from. I went. Walked by a Korean market and just. I had no food, and I stole it like a grapefruit. And I'm not even particularly fond of grapefruits. I guess it was just, just it, it was in reach, you know, anybody always thought, yeah, it's gonna work out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Somehow I just know it. It's gonna work out. I don't know why I had that feeling, but I did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it, it. And then I, I, I lucked out, and it, It's. It worked out.

[A]

What's the best.

[B]

The name of this show? Working It Out. Yeah.

[A]

What's. What's the best piece of advice someone's.

[B]

Given you that you used the Elaine Mays line is the safest thing you can do is take a. Take a risk.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I think that's great.

[B]

You know, just.

[A]

The safest thing you can do is take a risk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love that. All right, so I'm gonna work out a couple of jokes that are. I'm doing my performances at the Beacon Theater in a couple weeks.

[B]

In a couple weeks?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So I.

[B]

Well, at the last minute, did I come.

[A]

Oh, my God. I'd be honored. I'd be honored if you came.

[B]

I.

[A]

Of course, if people don't know this. Nathan presented my first show, off Broadway, Sleepwalk with Me. And I believe I view it as the inflection point of my entire life and career.

[B]

Oh, well, look, it's all you. I just went along for the ride. I vividly remember us standing outside when I was living in Tribeca. I think we had had dinner and you were, like, you were a little annoyed by the fact that Meryl Streep was presenting someone.

[A]

Bridging Tunnel. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Off Broadway.

[A]

Yeah. Sarah Jones's show. Solo show.

[B]

How Meryl Streep.

[A]

How did she get Meryl Streep to present?

[B]

And then we. Well, you know, and then you said. You looked at me and it was like, oh, it was like a marriage proposal. And you said, would you present me? And I went, well. I said, well, yeah, well, what is it? How much is it going to cost? Is that. You said nothing? I said, oh, sure, I'll present the hell out of you.

[A]

Your version of my voice is like, I'm a hustler.

[B]

Which then. And the next thing I knew, I was presenting you. Actually, if I'd known it was going to be such a big hit, I would have put money into it.

[A]

Yeah. But it was. I really do think of it as like a singular inflection point in my entire life.

[B]

Well, it was just a great show is what it was. And it was your performance of it. Do you remember when we did the View together?

[A]

Oh, I remember it.

[B]

And Joy Behar kept referring to you as Mike Birbiglia, which was some fell somewhere between, like, you sounded like a celebrity chef or Italian porn star. Mike. And she kept saying, I would say, no, it's Birbiglia. She said, no, it should be Berbelia. Oh, God, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, I remember that so well. It was a huge moment for me because my mom got to come, and my. And my mom loves the View. Watches the View every day.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so she was in the audience, and it was. And, and, And Joy came over and talked to her, and she loves Joy. It's her favorite comedian.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And. And, and, And Joy said to my mom, what do you think about your son being a comedian? And she goes. She goes, I don't know. I don't know what I think about it. He goes, joey goes, oh, he's really good at it. And it was, oddly, it was a turning point in my relationship with my mom and her understanding of my comedy career. It was like a permission slip from Joy Behar to my mom saying it was okay for me to be a comedian.

[B]

Wow. Joy Behar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Had that kind of power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Well, that's something. Yes. No, look, I was proud to be associated with it. It was such a great show. And. And then you, you know, it was a book. It was a board game. It was. Then you made a movie. Made a movie, and then you did it in claymation. It was. It's unbelievable how much mileage you got out of Sleepwalk.

[A]

Well, here's what I'll say about.

[B]

Your.

[A]

Wisdom in general about a Lot of my projects over the years is when I made it into a film. You read the script and you said a thing that stuck with me and I brought up during the production and in the edit over and over again, which is you basically said, the risk of turning this into a movie is that it starts to feel like a boilerplate independent film, quote unquote, of this really special, singular show. And you said, you have to take the singularity from the show and figure out how to have it live in the film. And we did it eventually, but it.

[B]

Was very, very hard.

[A]

But we brought that up over and over and over again, citing you. And I think it's true. Of all things, I actually think about that in everything I do is you can. I think the inclination sometimes goes to the thing you were saying about advice of Elaine May is the safest thing you can do is take a risk. It's the same idea, which is you shouldn't do what, in your mind is the, the independent film of the thing you do what's sort of in your gut.

[B]

Right. Or do something that's going to scare you.

[A]

Do something that's going to scare you.

[B]

That, you know, it's like, I don't know if I can do that, but that's always a good feeling.

[A]

This is from. I just got back from Una's winter break the other night. We're on vacation in Florida and Jem was like, let's go out with Una and swim in the pool. And it was 8:00 at night, it was dark. And we go out and Oona's swimming underwater and it's a magical moment. And then she swims into the pool wall and scrapes her head and she's okay, she's fine. But the first thing I thought was, I'm so glad it was Jen's idea to go in the pool. Cause if it were my, if it were my, if it were my idea, we'd be talking about this for 20 to 30 years. Since it's her idea, it's like, the thing's gonna heal and we'll never talk about it again.

[B]

Oh, that's funny. Yeah.

[A]

So I, it just happened this week and I just jotted it down in my notebook.

[B]

Yeah, that's good.

[A]

I just feel like, yeah, it's. And then I, I, and then I, I wrote this. Oh, I, this is something I want to try to get on stage, which is. So many of my friends have gotten divorced lately, which has been really hard on me, because when people get divorced, then you have to go Back into your own wife and husband and overcompensate and be like, jim's getting divorced. Which is what I would never do because I am resolute and firm in my conviction to be married. I would never be divorced like Jim, who is a villain. We shall never speak of Jim again. This is a really half baked idea. Whenever our friends get divorced, we do a divorce autopsy. Like they got divorced because they couldn't agree on what it was they were arguing about. And we're not like that. Right. Come on, team. Yeah. It's half baked. It's half baked. It's just definitely like a free association.

[B]

What do you think when people talk about we have a, like an open relation or an open marriage?

[A]

What do I think when people say that?

[B]

Yeah. I always think, do you think that good luck. Yeah.

[A]

To you in your life. I'm always like, no judgment. Good luck to you in your life. I don't, I don't, I respect it. I, I don't fully buy it. And I'll tell you what, as opposed.

[B]

To getting a divorce, they say we've decided to open up our marriage.

[A]

I've heard that. I've heard that.

[B]

Yeah. Because we, we are, you know, we, we, we're great as a couple, but this, we both would like to have sex outside the marriage.

[A]

Yeah. Look, I did a whole show about.

[B]

Monogamy to some degree.

[A]

My girlfriend's boyfriend was all about how I was never going to get married. And here's why, here's the seven reasons why. And all this stuff because Jen and I went through a period where before we got married, we were like, okay, we're not exclusive to each other and blah, blah. And I'm just like, good luck with that. We did that. It was a debacle every week. So much drama. Every week was like, who's that? What's that? That, what's that all about? Who's that? It's like, what do you have two lives? I don't know. It just feels like that. Again, no judgment.

[B]

People just want to say whatever. You know, everyone has grown up and have an affair. Just cheat and do it.

[A]

Well, I just feel like when Jen and I were in this phase of life where that's where we're, what we were going to do. We're like, like it just did it tactically. It required so much preparation, so much planning, so much clandestine and honestly, like, how do you, how do you do that without actually lying? If you're with the person all the time, if you know that person well, Enough. You know they're fucking lying. You just know. You just know in your bones.

[B]

You're getting angry and it hasn't even happened. Yeah, I'm riled up for comedic purposes. Hey, I've made a living out of that. Yeah.

[A]

The last thing we do is working out for a cause. If there's a non profit that you like to support.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

[B]

Oh, okay. Broadway Cares, Equity Fights aids.

[A]

It's a phenomenal organization. We'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

[B]

Oh, that's great. Thank you.

[A]

You are one of the greats of the greats of the greats. And dare I say, I love you. And I treasure your friendship.

[B]

And I love you. And I treasure your friendship too. Working it out.

[A]

Cause it's not done. We're working it out. Cause there's no. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can watch Nathan Lane on the new series Mid Century Modern coming soon on Hulu. I'm thrilled to watch that. If you haven't seen them already, watch Dick's the Musical and Beau is Afraid. I love those movies. You can watch the full video of this episode of Working it out on our YouTube channel, ikebirbiglia. Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos. Check out birdbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about all of my upcoming shows, we just added one in Halifax. After all these years of people asking me to come to Halifax, I've never been there and I'm on John Mulaney's show there. He's doing a big, big show. And I think it's. I want to say it's me. And Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen are the special guests on that one. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simon. Sound mixed by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and as always, our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort Minute Pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, go over to Apple Podcasts and rate and review us. You know what's really nice is if you just write down, type in which episode you like best. We've done at this point almost 160 episodes. So if you say, hey, I really like the Kate Berlant episode or the Mateo Lane episode or the Ray Romano episode. People will go, oh, okay, that's a good place to start. And if I'm being completely honest, the way people find out about the show is people like you telling your friends and telling your enemies. You know, tell Joaquin Phoenix. That guy needs to know if you ever meet Joaquin Phoenix. You might not, but Nathan Lane did when he worked with him. You could say, hey, Joaquin, we don't know each other. I'm not going to tell you how to do your job as an actor, but I do think you should check out this podcast. It's called Working it out where Mike Birbiglia talks to other creative people like your co star Nathan Lane and others. Maybe you can listen in between takes. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.