174. Pete Docter: The Inside Out of Pixar’s Process

Summary

Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out: Episode 174 with Pete Docter

In Episode 174 of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, comedian and host Mike Birbiglia sits down with Pete Docter, the acclaimed chief creative officer at Pixar Animation Studios. The conversation delves deep into Pixar’s intricate creative process, storytelling techniques, the impact of technology on animation, and personal anecdotes from Pete’s illustrious career. This summary captures the essence of their engaging dialogue, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes.

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1. Introduction to Pete Docter and His Work

Mike Birbiglia opens the episode by expressing his long-standing admiration for Pete Docter’s work. He highlights Pete’s directorial accomplishments, including beloved Pixar films like Monsters, Inc., Inside Out, Soul, Up, and the upcoming Elio. Mike emphasizes Pete’s role in shaping Pixar’s storytelling and animation prowess.

Notable Quote:

Mike Birbiglia (00:22): "He is one of the smartest people I have encountered in storytelling and filmmaking in my entire life."

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2. The Genesis of Up and Storyboarding

The conversation transitions to the creation of Up. Pete Docter shares the origin of the film’s iconic flying house concept, inspired by his desire to escape the overwhelming responsibilities of directing.

Key Points:

• Pete’s initial idea stemmed from his experiences directing Monsters, Inc. and feeling confined by the role.
• The concept evolved into the house floating away, symbolizing the desire for escape and the importance of community and connection.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (03:20): "I just want to get away from everything. Just float the house away."

Pete Docter (04:02): "Because, of course, the answer is that would be awful. And what you need is community and connection with other people. And that's what the movie's about."

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3. Pixar’s Story Development and Feedback Mechanisms

Pete elaborates on Pixar’s meticulous approach to story development, emphasizing the iterative process of storyboarding and receiving feedback.

Key Points:

• Storyboarding and Drafts: Pixar creates multiple drafts, often around ten iterations, to refine the story.
• Feedback: Emphasis on showing rough drafts to fresh eyes for honest opinions. Feedback sessions can be both enlightening and demoralizing, but they are integral to the creative process.
• Handling Criticism: Pete discusses the emotional toll of receiving critical feedback and the importance of bouncing back to improve the work.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (08:38): "At Pixar, we try to save some people so that they're raw so they can see it for the first time and give an honest first timer opinion."

Pete Docter (09:32): "It's building up to the screening and you're like, this is going to kill. This is going to get us, you know, everyone's going to lift us on."

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4. Challenges in Animation and Filmmaking

The dialogue explores the inherent challenges in animated filmmaking, from maintaining consistency to managing a large creative team.

Key Points:

• Consistency in World-Building: Ensuring the rules of the animated universe remain consistent throughout the story.
• Team Coordination: Directing a film with approximately 300 people requires effective communication and leadership.
• Creative Constraints: Balancing creative freedom with storytelling needs to avoid overwhelming the narrative with too many ideas.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (12:39): "All of them. The beginning is hard because if you don't hook people in the beginning, you never get. It's not like, I hate this character, but, oh, in the middle, I decided I love him. That never happens."

Pete Docter (32:15): "It's a little bit like a military structure. You have the director, then you have all these heads of each department, and if you communicate to them about certain things, they can disseminate the information to people."

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5. The Impact of Technology and AI on Animation

Pete shares his thoughts on the role of technology in animation, particularly the potential and limitations of AI.

Key Points:

• AI in Animation: While AI can assist in various departments, Pete believes it currently produces “bland” or “average” results lacking the uniqueness of human creativity.
• Accessibility: Computers have democratized animation, making it easier for more people to become animators without necessarily being excellent draftspersons.
• Future of Animation: Uncertainty about AI’s evolving role but emphasizes the irreplaceable human touch in storytelling and performance.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (19:58): "Everything I've seen with AI at least so far, it looks like you took everything, shook it all up, give me the average and sanded the edges off. It feels kind of bland."

Pete Docter (20:55): "I don't think AI is going to be like, make film, enter. It's not going to do that."

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6. Pixar’s Relationship with Disney and Steve Jobs

The episode delves into Pixar’s acquisition by Disney and the influence of Steve Jobs on the studio.

Key Points:

• Acquisition by Disney: Pete reflects on the mixed emotions of being acquired, balancing excitement with concerns about creative independence.
• Steve Jobs’ Influence: Steve Jobs played a significant role in Pixar’s marketing and business strategies, advocating for simplicity and elegance in communication.
• Personal Interactions: Pete shares a personal anecdote about having lunch with Steve Jobs multiple times, highlighting Jobs’ humility and dreams of reincarnation as a Pixar director.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (26:23): "Steve was pretty gentle. [...] One time he told me he hopes that he'll be reincarnated as a Pixar director." (00:00)

Pete Docter (27:11): "He is actually cutting down by, like, 70%. Child trafficking."

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7. Advice for Aspiring Animators and Creatives

Pete offers valuable advice for those looking to pursue a career in animation, emphasizing passion and perseverance.

Key Points:

• Pursue Your Passion: Encourages young creatives to “do it” and invest time in honing their craft.
• Hard Work Over Talent: While talent is beneficial, sustained effort and enthusiasm are crucial for success.
• Authenticity: Finding one’s unique voice and style is essential, rather than trying to emulate others.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (40:12): "Do it, do it, do it. It's easier than ever."

Pete Docter (40:46): "I don't know what the proportion of that is, if it's just blind optimism or. I mean, obviously talent does get external reward from people."

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8. Personal Insights and Anecdotes from Pete Docter

The conversation takes a personal turn as Pete shares memories from his childhood and pivotal moments in his career.

Key Points:

• Childhood Memories: Pete recalls making a Star Wars tribute film with dry ice and Darth Vader, underscoring his long-standing passion for storytelling and animation.
• Career Challenges: Discusses moments of self-doubt, such as trying to emulate John Lasseter’s directing style and facing physical setbacks like losing his voice during Monsters, Inc. production.
• Creative Evolution: Emphasizes the importance of developing his own creative identity separate from influences.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (47:01): "When I started directing on Monsters, I was trying to be John Lasseter, and a number of people kind of inadvertently fed that by saying, you know, when this happens to John, what he does is blank and blank, which I took as, oh, I'm crappy."

Pete Docter (46:05): "In the middle of that movie, I literally lost my voice for three months."

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9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Mike and Pete discuss philanthropic efforts and share their final pieces of wisdom.

Key Points:

• Philanthropy: Pete recommends supporting the International Justice Mission, an organization combating child trafficking and abuse globally.
• Final Advice: Pete reiterates the importance of doing what one loves over seeking financial gain, highlighting his journey to Pixar as a testament to following passion.

Notable Quotes:

Pete Docter (50:08): "International Justice Mission. Ijm. It was one that sort of like, wait, what? They send lawyers to different parts of the world."

Pete Docter (43:52): "Don't worry about making money. Do what you love."

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Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Community and Connection:

  Pete Docter (04:02): "What you need is community and connection with other people. And that's what the movie's about."

• On the Creative Process:

  Pete Docter (09:03): "There's always gonna be problems. I mean, I guess the wisdom is like, let's learn from this so we don't make that mistake. We can make new mistakes next time."

• On Technology and Animation:

  Pete Docter (19:58): "Everything I've seen with AI at least so far, it looks like you took everything, shook it all up, give me the average and sanded the edges off. It feels kind of bland."

• On Authenticity:

  Pete Docter (45:57): "I gotta do my own thing. I can't use his because he already thought of it. It's his thing already."

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare glimpse into the mind of one of animation’s leading figures. Pete Docter’s insights reveal the dedication, challenges, and creative philosophies that drive Pixar’s success. From the initial spark of an idea to the painstaking process of storyboarding and feedback, Pete emphasizes the importance of passion, resilience, and authentic storytelling. Aspiring animators and creatives will find his advice both inspiring and practical, while fans of Pixar’s masterpieces will gain a deeper appreciation for the artistry behind their favorite films.

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For those interested in exploring Pixar’s latest endeavors, Elio is currently in theaters. Stay tuned to Working It Out for more in-depth conversations with creative professionals.

Transcript

[Pete Docter]

My wife said, you think anybody ever asks Steve Jobs to go to lunch? I don't know. So I tried it. And so he and I had lunched a number of times, a dozen or so, and one time he told me he hopes that he'll be reincarnated as a Pixar director. So that was interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Pete Docter. Holy cow, are we in for a great episode. I have. I've wanted to have Pete Docter on this show for so many years. He has directed some of my favorite films of all time at Pixar. Monsters Inc. Soul Inside Out. Up up is one of my all time favorites. He's won three Oscars. I mean, these are classic films. If you haven't seen these films, you absolutely should. He is currently the chief creative officer at Pixar, overseeing all of the films there. He is one of the smartest people I have encountered in storytelling and filmmaking in my entire life. There is a new Pixar film in theaters now called Elio I'm really excited for and today I talk with Pete about all that. We talk about story, we talk about animation, we talk about Steve Jobs and I think you're really gonna love it. My new special, the Good Life. I want to thank you. It's currently on Netflix. So many of you have watched it and sent me messages and emails and then posted about it on social media and I can't thank you enough. We just did a Screening at the 92nd Street Y last week where I talked to my good friend Hassan Minaj about it. The feedback has been amazing and I can't thank you enough. I have five live shows this summer. Just five live shows coming up. Supporting John Mulaney's new hour. Me, Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen are supporting John in New Haven, Connecticut, Bethel, New York, Portland, Maine and Halifax in August and then in Vancouver in September. All those tickets are available on Burbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know. I love this chat with Pete Docter. I think you're going to love this one. I really think this is an instant all timer if you like this podcast. He's given a lot of notes on my shows over the years. I've given notes on a few of his movies At Pixar in development. We like talking about process and story and I have to say, like, our conversations off the air are very similar to our conversations like today on the air. Enjoy my conversation with the great Pete Docter. Your movie up was the first time where I felt like, extreme emotion in an animated movie. Like, I wasn't an animated movie person before that, really. And then that movie broke me.

[Pete Docter]

We turned you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You turned me.

[Pete Docter]

Oh, cool.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So the idea. Did you have the kernel of the idea of the house flying away?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, I think if I remember, it was a long time ago. I had the kind of concept of. And this really came out of Monsters Incorporated, the first film I directed. I know nobody told me if they told you, as a director, you don't actually do anything. You walk around and talk to people all day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, right, right.

[Pete Docter]

And that's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I describe it sometimes as a camp counselor.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. And that was overwhelming. So I wanted. I literally would, at the end of the day, hide under my desk. I have to this day, a stack of books about people marooned on tropical islands. So that was what I was driven by. Just like, I just want to get away from everything. Just float the house away. Yeah. And then from there came all the hard work after that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. So the ending of up was a dream come true for you in a fantastical way.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What if I just got away?

[Pete Docter]

Because, of course, the answer is that would be awful. And what you need is community and connection with other people. And that's what the movie's about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's what the movie's about. Right? Okay. Yeah. So my experience of it was. Yeah, the first 10 minutes were. I think first 10 minutes is when that prologue happens. It's very emotional. Really, like, sucker punched me in this way that I did not see coming. And then here's what I'll say about it. Oddly, I think part of it is that it's people in the animation as opposed to animals, robots, fish robots. And I think, like, was that a choice? Because I feel like in animation, the conventional wisdom is like, we're gonna do things that you can't do in live action film.

[Pete Docter]

I have wondered, like, if you made a shot by shot remake of up with Real People, would you get away with it? I mean, for one, I think you'd be like, really house flying, whatever. But more than that, I wonder if some of the stuff that was sort of appealing and likable for a grouchy old man to do Right. In an animated film would actually be like, I hate him in live action. I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. That's the Jack Nicholson, as good as it gets or something. Yeah. Do you, first of all, do you think you'll make a live action movie at some point?

[Pete Docter]

Probably not. Well, who knows? Yeah, who knows? I The thing. I'm super nervous to be on this podcast because I'm worried that you're going to ask me a lightning round of questions.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Pete Docter]

And it's going to go down. It's going to not be. I'm going to be hard. What happens under pressure is that I get dumber and my wife gets smarter. And that's why it's just not fair. But, you know, that's why I'm in animation, because I can be under pressure and be like, let's think about this tomorrow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, totally. I mean, I met you close to 15 years ago when Sleepwalk With Me went to Sundance. And then we. Our film was invited to screen at the Steve Jobs Cinema. Yeah. The theater on your campus, which we couldn't believe. We were just like, oh, my God, this is. This is crazy. This is better than getting into Sundance. And then. But I sought you out because I was just like, I need to meet the person who made up. You know? And I. Because it was so astonishing to me. And then we met and we became friends. And then over the years, you've given me an extraordinary amount of notes on my shows.

[Pete Docter]

Oh, is that a good thing?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, they're. They're great. They're, like, some of the best. Well, because you're friends with me and also my director, Seth Barish, who's directed all six of my shows, and the one that's most notable because I think it really improved the show is on the Old man in the Pool. We did it at the Berkeley Repertory Theater. And afterwards, you were like, that was great. And then Seth took you aside and was like, how do you really feel? I forget what he. Seth and I have various tricks for squeezing notes out of people that are critical, that they're withholding by being polite. I don't remember what he said, but you said this thing that was really smart, because at the end of the show, I basically say, like, all we have is this moment. And what I want to tell my parents is. And then it cuts to black.

[Pete Docter]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you had this note which was, you're ending with a thought, and you're not ending on an action. So we were like, okay, well, what if we landed that action in the locker room? I go back to the ymca. I see an old man, naked old man, massaging his testicles. What about that? And then I have that thought.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it made the show 10% better, which, as you know, is a lot. But the reason I bring it up is you give a lot of notes. You get A lot of notes. What's a good note look like and what does a bad note look like?

[Pete Docter]

Well, I still think a lot about Seth's advice in his book, which is, don't tell people you like this or you don't like this. Tell them the way it made you feel. And so often people are like, oh, I didn't mean for you to be focused on that. You know, just telling people here is. My internal reaction to what you showed me is so clarifying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So do you lead with that? Like when you show like you have a Pixar has a really unique approach to workshopping things, which is you. You'll be able to explain this better. But it's like you do a rough draft maybe of the movie.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. We call it storyboards, story reels.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So when you were doing Leo, which is the movie that comes out this summer, how many drafts do you show people along the way before it's the final draft that people see in cinema?

[Pete Docter]

Well, okay, it depends on what you count as a draft. So we start with a treatment and then we have scripts, a bunch of versions of the scripts. And then we put everything up almost like comic book form with our own music, dialogue, sound effects. We did that on Ellios like 10 times.

[Mike Birbiglia]

10 times?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You show everybody.

[Pete Docter]

At Pixar, we try to save some people so that they're raw so they can see it for the first time and give an honest first timer opinion.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I do that with my shows too.

[Pete Docter]

Okay. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're always like, okay, well save this person. This person hasn't seen it.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's like half the time you show it to somebody and you're like, don't say anything. I already know it's wrong seeing it through your eyes. I already have some ideas on what didn't work and what change. So there's that and then there's usually the note session afterwards, which sometimes is better than other times. I mean, you always get good stuff. Sometimes it's demoralizing. Do you? You don't seem to get demoralized there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you kidding me?

[Pete Docter]

You just rally right back, are you kidding me? People are laughing behind me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Get the fuck out of my studio. No, I'm completely demoralized all the time.

[Pete Docter]

Are you?

[Mike Birbiglia]

All the time.

[Pete Docter]

That's outrageous. It makes me feel better. Well, not really, but I mean, this. What happens for me is like Joe Grant was this guy I got to know. He was the head of story on Dumbo.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Pete Docter]

So when I knew him, he was in his 90s. So he said, yeah, everything is brilliant until you have to tell it to somebody else. And I'm like, that is. That is absolutely true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love that.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. So it's building up to the screening and you're like, this is going to kill. This is going to get us, you know, everyone's going to lift us on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Our shoulders, they'll love us forever.

[Pete Docter]

And then they're like, hmm, well, I have some notes and that's not what you want to hear. And then for me, I end up. I usually give myself a day to just wallow in my own self pity because that's what happens anyway. And then after that you start to go like, well, what if we did do that? And then you start to get excited again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, you know, it's funny. I asked one of your collaborators on up, Tom McCarthy. I go, Pete Docter's coming. I'm interviewing. Do you have any questions? He has. He goes, I have so many. I go, name one. He goes, does he like me? Which means to me that you are mysterious. Even to your close friends.

[Pete Docter]

That's hilarious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you ever have feedback where people feel like they have to read you based other than what you're saying?

[Pete Docter]

I'm the wrong person to ask, but the way I try to do it is here's the way it made me feel, here's the suggestion. And then this is crucial, here's why. Because what I'm trying to solve with this is blankety, blankety blank.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

And so if you have something like this lame suggestion that I just gave you, at least then they don't have to take my suggestion, but they know what they're trying to solve for.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you give an example of the why?

[Pete Docter]

A lot of times I'll say, hey, you know what would be funny or what would solve this problem for me is if this character got in the car and drove away.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

And that would tell me he doesn't care. And it doesn't mean that you have to get him literally into a car. But what I'm looking for is a sense that he doesn't care. He's just going away.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So in other words, I think you're saying, like, it's the note under the note. It's something there. That's how Seth and I always, like talk about it is like, we'll get feedback from people and if a bunch of people give notes in a section, that section's not working.

[Pete Docter]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it doesn't mean that they're, you know. Cause a lot of people come in Hot with their notes.

[Pete Docter]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They'll go, no, what has to happen here is that this character, uncle has to die. You go, no, no, no. I don't know if the uncle has to die, but something in that area is clearly not working for you.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, yeah. And have you heard, you probably experienced this too, where the area people poke at sometimes. The problem is actually before that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Pete Docter]

You know, that we haven't set it up right or we haven't gotten to this. The actual thing is. Okay. The thing that's happening. But we have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like maybe that's almost always true.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. It seems like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think is the hardest part of the movie? The beginning, the middle, and the end.

[Pete Docter]

All of them. The beginning is hard because if you don't hook people in the beginning, you never get. It's not like, I hate this character, but, oh, in the middle, I decided I love him. That never happens. Right. You just, like. They turn it off, they move on. So you got to get them at the beginning.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

In fact, Eliot redid the beginning. We had animated the whole thing, and we redid the beginning because we realized we're just not connecting with this character. And this is something I'm curious about in your process, too. Typically, we think, oh, what we need is more jokes. We need more funny. That'll get him. And then what actually works, not just on Elliot, but on a lot of films, is empathy and vulnerability. Showing the character's deep wound or hurt is usually the way the audience goes, oh, well, now I feel bad for him. And now I'm invested in their story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that was a big note that, like, six months before the Good Life came out, Ira Glass listened to a version of the show audio from the Road, and he goes. He goes. It's really good. You just need, like, three or four more moments where you tell the audience something that's true and not funny. And it's such a simple note, but it's hard to do that.

[Pete Docter]

Well, I keep coming back to your line, which is, before I tell you this next part, remember you're on my side. That's really what we're trying to do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. That's the whole trick of filmmaking, is how do we get people on our side for a thing that's essentially compromising of that character?

[Pete Docter]

Well, here's the thing. Act one is hard because we have to set up a character that you like, but that is flawed enough that when we fix them, we're going to be like, good. I like this character better. So they have these awful habits or whatever way of looking at the world, and yet somehow we have to make it likable.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have to fix them enough that it's worth watching a movie for it.

[Pete Docter]

Yes, true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which is wild.

[Pete Docter]

You don't hate them and turn it off.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so to go back to the notes thing, what's your favorite kind of note to get from someone?

[Pete Docter]

I loved it. Perfect. No, I mean, that's what you want, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Pete Docter]

My favorite kind at night.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's weirdly not like it's interesting. Like, I read. I'm forgetting the guy's name who wrote the book, but he was one of the co founders of Pixar who wrote that book, Creativity Inc. Oh, Ed.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, Kevin. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And he has this really, I think, astute point that I feel like since I read the book, I've repeated like a hundred times, which is that when people think of Pixar, they think that there was like a formula that was created for making movies. And he's like, no, no, the opposite. Like, it's. Every movie is a series of problems and challenges, and if it didn't have those challenges, it actually wouldn't be the movie you love.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I think that that's like a great way of looking at it.

[Pete Docter]

Right. And that's the same as people. Right. If you didn't make these horrible mistakes in your life, you wouldn't be who you are today.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

So, I mean, yeah. Every movie. I'm laughing as you say it, because we just had a postmortem on the last movie and we do that almost every time on Elio or the movie before. So we look at it and go like, all right, what did we do on that movie that we never wanna do again? What did we learn? And I keep thinking in the back of my head, like, it's always gonna be broken. There's always gonna be problems.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Pete Docter]

I mean, I guess the wisdom is like, let's learn from this so we don't make. Make that mistake. We can make new mistakes next time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's oddly comforting to think of it that way.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It makes you not maybe want to hide under your desk.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. I mean, I did have an idea that somewhere out there was the perfect director and that's what I wanted to become. And then at some point you realize, no, no, no, this. The person who loves Director A hates Director B and vice versa. Someone else might hate Director B and love Director A because of the match. The. You know, that's always a mess Wait.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So in other words, you were thinking like, how do I become the person.

[Pete Docter]

Director that everybody loves, that does great movies, that knows how to speak with people? And I don't think there's such a thing. I mean, working with actors. There's some actors who want to talk and analyze everything. There's some are like, don't say anything. I'm just going to do this right. I want to be instinctive. So everybody's different.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How do you. I mean, we were figuring this out today. Gary was pointing out that like in a film, it's like hundreds of thousands of frames and it's like, how do you bring energy to that day after day after day, year after year? Where's the spark?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, right. And it literally is made one frame at a time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

A good animator can do like four seconds in a week. That's the speed at which we go absurd. I know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Four seconds in a week. And you have to show. You have to wake up at seven in the morning and be like, I'm gonna go to work today to work on our section of the four seconds.

[Pete Docter]

It's absurd. And that's the animator. That's not counting the person who did all the sim, the cloth or the background characters or the lighting or the textures. So it's absurdly slow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the part you're talking about? Like all the different roles. I was thinking about like how AI interacts with animation right now. It's like, well, AI could technically do half the departments.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. But you know what it would look like? It would be like, look like that. It would be bizarre.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. But it's like. Which at some point.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, it will for sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because. Because even like when, when they presented the idea of computer graphics at all in the 70s, people are like, that's crazy. It can only be human beings drawing it. Right?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So eventually they're going to be like, well, AI. The AI can do the lighting, or AI can do the costumes, or AI can do blah, blah, blah. It's like, what is your thing where you're like, no, no, this part has to be human beings.

[Pete Docter]

Well, you know. Okay, so I was thinking about this. We were watching Elio and I was realizing we have 150 animators and I would say I get myself in trouble if I try to give a percentage of them that are really brilliant. If you look back in time, the number of hand drawn animators that were really brilliant was in the dozens. Like a very small number of people who could draw well enough, understood the dynamic of movement. Character acting had the right sensibilities. That's like, you know, the Disney's Nine Old Men and a few others. So not very many.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

But I think computers have Nine Old.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Men is like there's essentially like nine guys who made all of those movies for like decades. Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

Frank Thomas, Ollie Johnson, Milt Call all these great animators from the days of yore. I think animation computers rather have made animation more accessible. So I don't have to be a brilliant drafts person to be an animator. I still have to have performance and timing. But like one of the heavy lifts has been done by the computer and maybe there's some other tacks with that. Like I have to understand how the system works and, you know, but I almost, I was wondering whether AI will continue to help us lift some of the heavy burdens that we have to carry as an animator and maybe put the focus more on the performance.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

Everything I've seen with AI at least so far, it looks like you took everything, shook it all up, give me the average and sanded the edges off. You know what I mean? It feels kind of bland or like, yeah, that's sort of what a bear looks like, you know, but not any specific bear or a person, you know. And I don't know if that'll change too, but AI seems like it is the least impressive. Blah, average of things.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you. I mean, at some point the people who are above you, they'll go like, we could do a movie for free. We could do a Pixar style movie, except it's free.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. No, there's already been pressure. There's already. I mean, I guess the way I look at it, I don't think AI is going to be like, make film, enter. It's not going to do that. But it is being trained on everything, right? Yeah, it's being. It's listening to everything you've ever performed and written and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know. And saying, you know, and it's laughing and laughing and it's experiencing human emotions.

[Pete Docter]

It probably is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what's funny is there was a. You know, we were doing research here the other day on, on history of Pixar stuff and there was that like long thread on Twitter that went viral about how to make a Pixar story. And then I met. Oh, okay, you didn't see it. I mentioned it to Seth.

[Pete Docter]

What's the answer? How do we do it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I mentioned it to Seth and he goes, I asked Pete about it once and he goes, that wasn't us. We didn't do that.

[Pete Docter]

Right? Yeah. I think there is something slightly dangerous about analyzing yourself because then you and I've seen a few people do this where they put together talks and, and package it for easy to understand audience and then they're kind of stuck.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

Because the reality is at every phase. Sorry, not every phase. At every film I've worked on, there comes a phase where all the tricks have run out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

I've tried everything and it still didn't work. And then you do something else and that's what solves it. You know what I mean? It's just, I think that's an essential part of the creative process that you're discovering this thing. If you knew exactly what you wanted from the beginning, for one, I don't think it would be very good, but it wouldn't be very interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The thing that I didn't understand about animation until I read that book that we're talking about, Creativity Inc. Is this idea of like in the 70s that they created the idea of motion blur.

[Pete Docter]

Oh yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then that made it like feel more like what human beings look like because drawings are essentially all in focus.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And human motion is out of focus to the human eye. And so it was like this breakthrough of like, oh my God, cartoons feel like life a little bit.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. And that's why it's weird when you see AI pictures and that it puts motion blur in sometimes. Right. It's doing it. But yeah, it's early stop motion. Like Willis o' Brien or some of the guys who did like King Kong. Can't believe I'm black on Harryhausen. Harryhausen. A lot of those are kind of jittery because they didn't know how to blur fast movement.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. And then Pixar came along in the 90s and essentially created the first computer created animation films. Right. I mean that, that's sort of the innovation.

[Pete Docter]

I don't know that I could credit Pixar for that. I think there were other people who were also doing early computer work, but I guess Pixar foundationally has the. The first feature length animated film with computer.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

Toy Story. Toy Story, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which you worked on.

[Pete Docter]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's crazy.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, it is crazy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's unbelievable. You won the Oscar.

[Pete Docter]

No, we got a special Oscar.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, okay.

[Pete Docter]

That John, I think.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, right. Because it predated the animation category. Right. Oh, there was a special Oscar and.

[Pete Docter]

We were very flattered to be nominated. This was almost more meaningful. Nominated in the screenplay category.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's really cool.

[Pete Docter]

So, yeah. And it felt kind of Mysterious. Cause we were all going, like, I don't know how this works. Let's clickety, clickety, you know. And Andrew Stanton, I remember getting email from him with, I could barely make it out. Typos and spelling errors. And somehow along the way, he just like, I'm figuring this out. And he put his glasses on and figured it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which part of it? What do you mean?

[Pete Docter]

Just the writing process. During Toy Story, I watched him go from like, I'm just a cartoonist to a writer. Oh, interesting. And he would come in with stacks of books about the process. We went to Bob McKee's story structure thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. So you're saying before Toy Story, you didn't think about, you weren't going to make a feature film. You were just going to animate shorts. And so then you start to think about, okay, what would the structure of a feature length look like?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, I mean, all of us who were involved had. There was only one that had worked on a feature, really. I mean, John Lasseter, who's the director, he had animated on a feature. He animated on Fox and the Hound. You guys watched that one?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep.

[Pete Docter]

Andrew and I had only done shorts. Joe Ranft, who was our head of story, had actually worked on a story in the story department before. He worked on Rescuers down under. And he was also had a story on James and the Giant Peach and Nightmare Before Christmas.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow.

[Pete Docter]

So he had the most experience by a long shot of any of us. And he would just say stuff like, trust the process and be like, huh? What does that mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know what that means. And also, there kind of is no process that predates it.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then of course, Steve Jobs would pop in and do punch up.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, exactly. No, he. Steve, we barely saw during the making of it. I remember the first time I met him was like three months into working there, he showed up to basically let go of the hardware division.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Pete Docter]

And so it was a downer moment, but I got a peek into what they called the reality distortion field that he would create. He was like, we've got a great future. And everybody left going, hey, this is great. We just fired all my friends. So that was wild. But then he didn't really show up most of the way through. And then at the end, he was very heavily involved in how we were going to roll this out to the world. He had a lot of opinions about the marketing campaign and advertising and things like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was his take on it, do you recall?

[Pete Docter]

Well, it's very classic, Steve. You Know, a lot of times, animation, and we're guilty of this too, is like, just put tons of colors on it and put all the characters in there. And he was like, you can only communicate one thing. Strip it down, keep it simple, keep it elegant. He had a lot kind of pushing that direction. But I think Steve, you know, he would. We would hear stories of him at Apple, and then he would come to Pixar and everyone would kind of back up. And he was pretty gentle. And I remember my wife said, you think anybody ever asks Steve Jobs to go to lunch? I don't know. So I tried it. And so he and I had lunched a number of times, dozen or so. And one time he told me he hopes that he'll be reincarnated as a Pixar director. So that was interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, that's outrageous. It is, but it is like a dream job. Like, I really do think, like, you know, if you're growing up and you're a creative kid, you think the dream job would be, I'm a director at Pixar. So, like, how is that true? How is it not true?

[Pete Docter]

Well, I was gonna say you should talk to some of the Pixar directors.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Docter]

And hear their. Especially the first time through. Cause what happens is it almost feels like it's engineered to find your weak spots and pick at them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Say more about that.

[Pete Docter]

Well, like, if you have trouble making decisions, the whole process is about decisions. Oh, boy. Okay. That's awful. If you feel insecure, the whole process is gonna make you feel more insecure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

If you're a private person, we're gonna probe in. Cause the story itself is gonna expose all the things you don't wanna talk about in yourself, you know, so it's. I watch it every time, and I warn new directors coming in. It's like, just so you know, this isn't intentional, but this process is going to expose your weak underbelly for everybody. And we're all gonna be talking about it. So you just have to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're all gonna be talking about it.

[Pete Docter]

That's true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that really drives the knife in. We're all gonna be talking about it over lunch.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any tips for, like, supporting someone's vision but also being honest?

[Pete Docter]

Hmm. I think I'm generally guilty of being too nice, of saying, no, it's great. It's great. Like you were talking about with Seth at the beginning. And so I think the other extreme is giving people 8,000 disparate notes. So what I Try to do when people ask me to assess something is, first I make all the notes and then I go, well, this really. There's three things. If I really back up, there's three things, and you can't really have more than three things.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. What's the worst reaction you've ever gotten to someone giving notes? Hmm.

[Pete Docter]

There was one time that. And it wasn't just me, but we gave notes, and the director walked out and got in his car and drove home and said, I don't think I'm ever coming back.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did he come back?

[Pete Docter]

He did. Yes, he did. But that was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a hard day.

[Pete Docter]

That was a hard day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow. This is one of the great things about animation, is it opens up the scope of what a story can be about. Do you ever find that a more daunting way to create since there are no limitations to what you're making?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, I think. I mean, so often our problem in the first draft is there's just too many ideas and you have to pare it down and just simplify, simplify. And you realize, oh, this is only an hour and a half. That seems like a long time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. It's like the characters could fly. They could be astronauts. They could, you know, they could swim a thousand miles if they wanted to.

[Pete Docter]

Certain concepts lend themselves to more pitfalls than others. Like if you have a grouchy old man, you know, I guess the thing that some people felt like. I remember Dan Gerson, who is a writer that I worked with on monsters. He saw it and he said, the dogs flying airplanes. Ooh, you lost me. That just. You went too far. That's the thing that went over the line. So, you know. But my point was, you have a human. In more or less our world, there's restrictions. Right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

I guess the farthest we're going to go is like the floating house with balloons. But there are other things going into space or fantasy worlds of some sort that. You're right. You can just go off in any direction. And that's bad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is one of the. When I think about your movies, it's like the world of Inside out, for example. It's like, do you have to come up with, what are the rules of this parallel universe that doesn't exist, but for us, it exists?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, what are the rules of Inside Out?

[Pete Docter]

Well, I mean, we started with. I don't know if I can even answer that. It was something that evolved with the story, and sometimes the rules would be the rules until we realized, well, that can't be the rule anymore. We have to change it. They have to be able to do this or that, and then you have to go backwards and be consistent with that. You know, you can't just change your mind. And in the middle of a story. You can, if you're making the story, as long as it's consistent.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But that must be crazy because there's 100 people working on the movie or more.

[Pete Docter]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How many people working on one of those movies? 300.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, 300 usually.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. So it's like. Then you have to be like, hey, Memo, for everybody. Actually, these characters can fly. Now.

[Pete Docter]

That is part of the director's job is to go around. Like, I know last week I said, this is not supposed to have a. Well, now it is. And not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is such a hard job, though, to direct a movie like that. There's. That's 300 people. You have to convince of a world that does not exist all the time and changes.

[Pete Docter]

It's a little bit like a military structure. You have the director, then you have all these heads of each department, and if you communicate to them about certain things, they can disseminate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Disseminate?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, that's how you pronounce it. The information to people. So that makes it a little bit. I mean, we have an amazing crew of people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you ever. You ever punch out of a film that you conceived of, that you have. You'd put in years and years on?

[Pete Docter]

No, I think there were one or two that I worked on for months and months. Wally was one that I had tried to get in to process like twice, and it didn't go. And Andrew picked it up and I was like, if you can get it to go, great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, in other words, get it to go get it to work or get it.

[Pete Docter]

Get it into production. Greenland. Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then he did.

[Pete Docter]

Wow. Yeah, we had come up with some of the stuff of, you know, this robot on a planet full of trash, but he was the one that really cracked it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So when you're working on, like, we're talking about.

[Pete Docter]

And obviously he directed it and wrote it and everything else, I just did the very early stuff, which, you know, is a little bit like, as Bob McKee says, whistling on the steps of Carnegie hall, like, it's easy to have ideas, right. But to actually get the thing to go and make people care, and that's the hard part. That's what they're. Okay. Pixar's been sued quite often, especially the more popular films. For whatever reason, they get a lot of lawsuits. So I think it Always makes me upset because a. We didn't steal anything. Even if we had. It's not the idea, it's the execution of it. It's the. The five years you spent figuring out how to put that across.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

That's the hard work.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I can only imagine. Because of course that's, you know that standup comedy is a similar thing. It's the illusion of. Oh, that's something I was thinking the other day.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like. Right. But you didn't. You. You weren't able to whittle it down to something. Seven words right. In a row in front of an audience.

[Pete Docter]

And you didn't devote your life to standing in front of a crowd and listening to the show every day afterward. And all the work that. Yes, right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's the magic trick of standup comedy. And I suppose that's the magic of filmmaking as well.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do we talk about this for less?

[Pete Docter]

There was a great, you know, Penn and Teller. Penn wrote something and I think it was Smithsonian. He said, you will be fooled by a trick if it involves more work and effort than any sane person would be willing to invest.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

And that's the same with what we do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. That's such a great way of looking at it. Right. You have to invest an extraordinary amount of time. Like when you were working on. Because you were. That's the first film from Pixar in the 90s is Toy Story. When you're working on that, did you feel like, oh, this is going to be what takes over?

[Pete Docter]

No, no, I totally. Well, for one, I don't know that I ever really stopped and thought, will this be successful or not? I was just like, oh, this is going. And then once it came out, I remember we had. The press would always ask, how long do you predict before real actors are replaced by computer generated? That was their big fear then. And is this going to replace Hand Drawn? And we said never to both. And we were sort of wrong on one. I mean, Hand drawn. There's still hand drawn animation, but not at the same sort of scale and. And finesse that there was at Disney back in the day. It's now cg, so. But I had no idea. I guess you're asking, what do you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Think could be the thing that's next after this? So it's like Motion Blur was in the 70s and then it's like essentially like films on computers in the 90s. And then it's like, what is the next thing that might happen?

[Pete Docter]

Well, Mike, if I knew that I wouldn't give it away free on your podcast. I have no idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you have any hint of it? Do you think that like with like. I guess what I'm thinking of is like people always make a strong case for VR and I'm always like, I believe you. You know, some people.

[Pete Docter]

You know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, I believe you, but I'm not there on it.

[Pete Docter]

No, I know. And every time you try, they're like, yeah, put these glasses on and it starts getting a bruise on your nose and then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

And you're sweating under there and you're like, this isn't really fun. And I can't see the person who's sitting next to me anymore. So.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Totally.

[Pete Docter]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Takes away the fun of it.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you, but do you, do you read like futurism, writing and things like that about that kind of stuff?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. I mean the thing that seems like depressingly already happening is that when people are walking around on their phones, they are in a virtual world already. They're walking around, so they're amongst us, but not really.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

And that seems like that's not going to get. It's not going to go away because it's very tempting. It's. It's pleasurable somehow to get texts from people and I don't know why that is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it's hitting. Yeah. It's hitting our dopamine centers and doing something to us.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

But I don't know what's gonna happen in terms of storytelling or filmmaking or stuff. I don't know. I mean, it's such a weird cross section of, you know, the financial situation and technology and sociology and I gotta believe that so far as we can tell, people from caveman days when they could first talk, were sitting around fires telling stories.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Pete Docter]

I doubt that's gonna change in the next two years. Cause that's a couple million years worth of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I don't think that's changing off the road. That's my case. Always for film.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. How it is gonna manifest, I don't know. Might be on some other device. But I do think there's also something people. Even though there's more streaming than ever, there is something people crave or find reward in sharing that with other people. Don't you?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Oh yeah.

[Pete Docter]

I mean for you especially, you can't have a comedian with a one person audience. Even when they're watching at home. You want, you sense the audience, that's why you're there, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, absolutely. And I think like live, stand up comedy is bigger than it's ever been right now.

[Pete Docter]

Maybe because people aren't going to movies as often much, but they still crave.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Being in a group and. Yeah. And laughing in a group. Yeah. There's certainly something to it. The thing that I was always confused by with Pixar in relationship to Disney was when Pixar came out, I was like, it's like punk rock to what Disney I would describe as like rock and roll. And what is your relationship to both? And then when they became one or one became a subset of the other, how'd you feel about it?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah. Okay. So when I got the call that we were going to be bought by Disney, guess where I was? I was standing on the riverboat at Disneyland.

[Mike Birbiglia]

At Disneyland, sure.

[Pete Docter]

So it all sort of fits. And I was, part of me was like, oh, that's exciting and troubling at the same time because I was with.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You, with the kids.

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, they were there. I was immediately thinking, that means we have access to the archives. We can go look at all the drawings that all the great animators did. Yeah, that was my first thought. Not anything really business wise. I think Steve Jobs, he knew that he was dying of cancer.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

He wanted the place to be cared for. And he did consider a long time the idea that could we be our own thing. But I guess his thought was that we'd be so sink or swim every film would be success or failure, that it just felt too, too dangerous even for a guy willing to take pretty big risks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

So tethering to Disney, you know you're gonna stay afloat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What would your biggest piece of advice be for a young teenager who wants to be an animator right now?

[Pete Docter]

Do it, do it, do it. It's easier than ever. The other thing I've said, like, no one. You would never think of handing someone who's never played before a violin and saying, you have natural talent. You're playing on Carnegie hall tonight. Like, it takes years to practice and get better. Filmmaking is no different. It's not like some people are born with talent and some people aren't. I mean, that's true to some degree, but you need. Either way, you're going to need to practice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So what do you think is the calibration of hard work and talent that makes the best animators?

[Pete Docter]

I don't know. It's almost impossible to answer because I know I can look at, okay, my mom is moving out of her house and we had looking through old stuff and I have drawings of my own. And they're like, oof. I did not have an innate talent as a kid. It was clunky, but for whatever reason, I had the enthusiasm and I stuck with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

So I don't know what the proportion of that is, if it's just blind optimism or. I mean, obviously talent does get external reward from people. They're like, ooh, that's a good drawing. And then you are enthusiastic and keep going.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What is the thing that you know because you. I have to. I have to imagine that on these films through the years, you're sometimes working 15, 16 hour days. It's like, what's the thing when you're working on a movie, two, three in the morning that's making you go, we. We have to do this?

[Pete Docter]

I don't know. What's the thing for you? You just feel like you have to do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'll come on your podcast and answer it.

[Pete Docter]

All right, all right. I don't know. You just feel like it has to be good. It has to be good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

How many. You know, Brad Bird said, pain is temporary, film is forever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so this is the slow round. Who are you jealous of?

[Pete Docter]

I'm jealous of Bill Watterson. The guy who did Calvin and Hobbes. Oh, wow. Who drew that, said, I'm retiring and disappeared from society?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is that what he did?

[Pete Docter]

I mean, nobody really knows where he is because he just doesn't want the public attention.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

So that's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's not doing podcasts?

[Pete Docter]

Well, no, he's not. That is true. And I think on purpose. He's just like, I get to stay home and paint.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's hiding under his desk, but we just don't know where the desk is. What's the best piece of advice you've been given that you used?

[Pete Docter]

Hmm. Well, Seth's. Don't just tell people how you feel about it. Tell them your experience, how you experienced it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How you experienced it. Yeah. What about in your career? Any piece of advice about your career that you used to like? I feel like you're at the top of the mountain of the mountain that you decided to climb up. And was there any point along the way that someone goes, hey, stick with it because of this?

[Pete Docter]

Well, the thing I would say is, first of all, it's a mountain that you created in your head because there is no top. Everybody, like, I could be working in my garage. Maybe Bill Watterson's at the top right now because he's doing exactly what he wants to be doing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

So I'm in This weird position of power or whatever. Whatever you want to call where I am.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Pete Docter]

But I think I. I just. Somebody told me early on, don't worry about making money. Do what you love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

And I don't know that I would have been able to do that anyway, but I. Even choosing to come to Pixar, nobody knew what Pixar was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

Didn't exist. The option to go to this lifelong dream of working at Disney or new upstart, which was the Simpsons and everybody was talking about. Instead, I went this other way because it just felt like the right way to go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Why, though?

[Pete Docter]

Why exactly?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like, why'd you do it?

[Pete Docter]

I just had a good feeling about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just had a good feeling about it. The people seemed like people that you had, like, something in common with.

[Pete Docter]

Yep. And I liked the stuff that they were doing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's a song that makes you cry?

[Pete Docter]

September Grass by James Taylor.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, what about it?

[Pete Docter]

You know, there's just something, I don't know that seems personal but reminds me of my wife. And it feels like a time that's passing, that. Like this warm, rich time that is going away. And I know that's gonna happen to all of us throughout our lives, and that just feels beautiful and sad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's sweet. Can you remember a time in your life where you were sort of an inauthentic version of yourself? Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

I mean, when I started directing on Monsters, I was trying to be John Lasseter, and a number of people kind of inadvertently fed that by saying, you know, when this happens to John, what he does is blank and blank, which I took as, oh, I'm crappy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Pete Docter]

Sure. I need to kind of do what John's doing. I try to be big, and he's a very different personality than me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How'd you figure out to be yourself?

[Pete Docter]

Well, I just wasn't very good at being him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

So.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I felt like it wasn't quite working. Even though the movie was really successful.

[Pete Docter]

And worked well, it was along the way that that started to shape of like, oh, I have to find my own version of this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

I can't use his.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

Because he already thought of it. It's his thing already.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Pete Docter]

I gotta do my own thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you ever have a pit stop with it where you're just like, ugh. Like, this hits a. This hit a wall.

[Pete Docter]

Well, okay, so this is weird. In the middle of that movie, directing that film, I literally lost my voice for three months.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Pete Docter]

I could only speak about, like, this to people because I lit my. I went to the doctor. I had had a paralyzed vocal cord. Oh, God. And as we talked about at the beginning, the only thing a director does is go around and talk to people. So I was basically hobbled. I could not do the job. And I think it was just weird how, like, if you were writing a script, you'd put that in and be like, that's too obvious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A little on the nose. Metaphor.

[Pete Docter]

Exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

But.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So that was part of what led you to becoming yourself.

[Pete Docter]

I think it is. I think it was part of figuring out what. Not only my voice as a filmmaker, but, like, as a leader.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Docter]

People. How do you deal with that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow. Do you have a memory on a loop from your childhood that comes back?

[Pete Docter]

Ooh, that's a good question. There's a weird. Okay, so as many people did. We made a tribute film to Star wars on Super 8 millimeter. Did you do that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No.

[Pete Docter]

Okay. A lot of. Have you talked to people at different people. There's a lot of fan films made. And there was one moment that we had a friend of ours, she was dressed in a Darth Vader outfit, and we had buckets of dry ice obtained at great expense.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh.

[Pete Docter]

And we put them in the garage, and the garage opened and dry ice came out and there came Darth Vader. And it was so cool. Of course, it looks. You can see the bowls that are holding the water as you still have that footage. I think so. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's cool.

[Pete Docter]

But that for whatever reason, maybe. Cause we're also moving my mom out of the house that that garage door kind of has been playing. We were so anxious to shoot it. I didn't even set up a tripod. I was like, all right, go. And then just filming handheld.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It must be crazy for you because George Lucas was a part of Pixar in some way, shape or form when it started, Right?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, that must be crazy if your childhood thing was making Star wars like reenactments. Like, what? Did you ever have an interesting interaction with him?

[Pete Docter]

Yeah, we had to screen. So Monsters came out at the same time as one of the newer Star wars films that he was directing. I don't remember the names of them all now, but we had to screen. It was gonna. We wanted to put his trailer on the front of Monsters. And so we screened the film for him early on. So it was me and John and George Lucas. And I think that's about it. Sitting there watching this movie that I directed. And I was like, oh, this is so weird. But he liked it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you think of a scene or a moment in your life that you realize, in retrospect, changed your life?

[Pete Docter]

Well, this isn't a specific scene, but sitting. I remember being so pissed off. So my parents were both musicians, conductors. My mom directed children's choirs, my dad at a college. And so we were always going to concerts, classical music, and it was so boring. And I remember being so pissed that I was there and I was sort of squirming around, and my mom said, sit still. She kind of smacked my leg. And I was not knowing what else to do. I grabbed all the programs and just started drawing on them. And I do think between that and church, just wanting to entertain myself at times, that felt boring. That's what got me into this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to support? We will contribute to them and then link to them in the show notes.

[Pete Docter]

Ooh, yeah. International Justice Mission. Ijm. It was one that sort of like, wait, what? They send lawyers to different parts of the world. And I'm like, lawyers? And then you realize, oh, they're actually cutting down by, like, 70%. Child trafficking.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Pete Docter]

And like, abuse of women just because a lot of countries are not doing anything about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, that's fantastic. Well, we will contribute to them. We will link to them in the show notes. And Pete Docter, this is. I've been talking to you about coming on this podcast for many years. One of my favorite filmmakers of all time. It's such an honor to speak with you.

[Pete Docter]

Oh, thank you. It's an honor to be here working.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no. That's going to do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can check out Pixar's new film Elio, in theaters right now. You watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel. It's ikeberbiglia and subscribe. Click the subscribe button because we're going to post more and more videos. Check out birdbiglia.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinsky. Special thanks, as always, to my friend Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio for Made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show and I mean it. I always read these little reviews on Apple podcasts and people say what their favorite episode is. Put the stars in there. It actually really helps out. We've been doing this show for five years, 170 something episodes, and when people find the podcast they don't really know where to start. There's so much stuff and so it's really helpful if you go on there and you say I like the show and here is a good episode that'll give you a sense of what this podcast is all about. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, Tell the old man on your street who's flying away with a bunch of balloons. Catch him before he goes too high. Say hey Carl, I know you're off on this big adventure, but there's bound to be some downtime while you're flying across the sky. Maybe listen to this podcast called Working It Out. It's where comedian Mike Birbiglia talks about the creative process with other creative professionals. You wouldn't know anything about it, but if you need help figuring out how to play a podcast, ask Russell. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. I'll see you next time.