179. Bob Odenkirk: The Art of Anger in Comedy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out – Episode 179: Bob Odenkirk: The Art of Anger in Comedy

Release Date: July 28, 2025

In Episode 179 of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, comedian and actor Bob Odenkirk joins host Mike Birbiglia and comedian David Cross to delve deep into the intricate relationship between anger and comedy. The conversation spans Bob's multifaceted career, the challenges of acting versus writing comedy, personal anecdotes, and insights into the creative process.

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1. Exploring Anger in Comedy

[00:00 – 12:17]

The episode opens with Mike Birbiglia positing a connection between anger and comedy, a theme Bob Odenkirk wholeheartedly agrees with:

• Mike Birbiglia [00:00]: "I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly."

• Bob Odenkirk [00:19]: "I see it as a value. But also, Mike, I walk around, I'm like, I'm having a good day. I'm having a good day. What the, what the mother you just got, you know, whatever."

Bob elaborates on how comedy often channels everyday frustrations into humor, effectively "corralling" anger into something relatable and funny.

2. Bob Odenkirk’s Career Journey

[00:36 – 03:08]

Mike Birbiglia lauds Bob's illustrious career, highlighting his creation of Mr. Show, writing stints on Saturday Night Live (SNL), and collaborations with comedy legends like Chris Farley. Bob’s transition into dramatic roles, notably in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, showcases his versatility. He also mentions his recent Tony-nominated performance in Glengarry Glen Ross, an upcoming sequel Nobody 2, and his acclaimed book "Comedy Comedy Comedy Drama."

• Mike Birbiglia [00:36]: "He also has this amazing book called Comedy Comedy Comedy Drama. That's four words. Comedy, comedy, comedy, Drama I think is one of the best books about comedy and the process of becoming a comedy writer performer and that I've read."

3. The Challenges of Acting in Dramatic Roles

[03:08 – 12:17]

Transitioning from comedy to acting in dramatic series like Better Call Saul brought significant stress for Bob. He discusses the immense pressure of performing scripted material without formal training:

• Bob Odenkirk [03:51]: "I was like, what? What am I doing? What did I think I could."

Bob emphasizes the necessity of mastering acting skills on the job, balancing writing quality with authentic performance.

4. The Balance Between Writing and Performance in Comedy

[12:17 – 25:08]

The conversation shifts to the dynamics of sketch comedy, particularly referencing the iconic "Living in a Van Down by the River" sketch from Mr. Show. Bob breaks down the importance of both writing and performance, suggesting that in sketch comedy, performance often takes precedence:

• Bob Odenkirk [06:13]: "It is the north star of sketch comedy. It is a perfect comedy sketch."

He further discusses the collaborative nature of creating memorable sketches and the fine line between vulnerability and maintaining a heroic presence in performance.

5. Personal Anecdotes and Life Experiences

[25:08 – 47:28]

(Note: The segment from [25:08] to [26:20] contains an advertisement for Quint and is skipped.)

Post-advertisement, Bob shares personal stories that have influenced his work. He recounts experiences like a home invasion involving his family and the subsequent emotional impact it had on him, which later influenced the themes of violence and vulnerability in his films.

• Bob Odenkirk [36:33]: "He was a pro. He was there to take things."

These experiences underpin the authenticity and emotional depth he brings to his roles, blending personal pain with professional craft.

6. Navigating Fame and Authenticity

[47:28 – 50:02]

Bob reflects on moments when he felt inauthentic, particularly during celebrity interactions such as red carpet events. He emphasizes the importance of being honest and maintaining a sense of self amidst the pressures of fame.

• Bob Odenkirk [47:52]: "I thought he'd be a writer. And I understood that PR was part of that at some point."

He advocates for genuine interactions, reminding himself and others that behind the celebrity persona lies the real individual.

7. Creative Process and Collaboration

[50:02 – 35:56]

Bob offers valuable insights into the creative process, stressing the importance of collaboration and selecting the right stories to tell:

• Bob Odenkirk [15:12]: "The first job you have as a director is picking the right story."

He discusses his experiences directing films like "Melvin Goes to Dinner" and "Based on a Play," highlighting the delicate balance between personal vision and collaborative input.

8. Advice for Creative Individuals

[35:56 – 44:36]

The trio explores strategies for creatives to refine their work, such as workshop readings and maintaining confidence amidst self-doubt:

• Bob Odenkirk [33:47]: "You need that weird drive and certainty. Or maybe just the joy of doing it is so great that it gets you through."

Bob also touches on the pitfalls of both over-collaboration and excessive individual control, advocating for a balanced approach to creative projects.

9. Supporting Meaningful Causes

[50:02 – 50:37]

As the episode concludes, Bob highlights his support for Food on Foot, a Los Angeles-based organization that assists unhoused individuals in finding work and housing.

• Bob Odenkirk [50:10]: "Food on Foot is an amazing organization in LA that I help out and they really have a program that helps people who are unhoused find work and housing."

Mike Birbiglia commits to contributing to Food on Foot, encouraging listeners to support the cause.

10. Conclusion and Final Remarks

[50:37 – End]

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks to Bob Odenkirk, a recap of the key discussions, and encouragement for listeners to engage with the podcast and support its initiatives. The final moments emphasize the ongoing journey of "working it out" in both personal and professional realms.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Mike Birbiglia [00:06]: "I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly."

• Bob Odenkirk [04:05]: "The pressure was just through the roof, you know? And I knew the writing was great, but also, it was challenging writing."

• Bob Odenkirk [10:08]: "But no one could beat Chris. I mean, there's no one who could do it better than Chris."

• Bob Odenkirk [23:10]: "I have a great desire to talk as much as possible about failure."

• Bob Odenkirk [35:27]: "Maybe you could say it's taken a little while. I do think, you know, I had a strange misplaced confidence when I was very young doing it."

• Bob Odenkirk [41:34]: "What's potentially good about a movie with such expression is you get to express. You get to unlock it."

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Key Takeaways:

• Anger as a Creative Tool: Anger can be harnessed in comedy to create relatable and humorous content.

• Versatility in Career: Transitioning between comedy and dramatic acting presents unique challenges and opportunities for growth.

• Balancing Collaboration and Vision: Successful creative projects require a delicate balance between personal vision and collaborative input.

• Authenticity Amidst Fame: Maintaining authenticity is crucial for creatives navigating the complexities of fame and public perception.

• Supporting Community Causes: Engaging with and supporting meaningful community initiatives enriches personal fulfillment and societal impact.

Final Note: Bob Odenkirk’s candid discussion offers invaluable insights into the intertwining of personal emotions with professional artistry, emphasizing the continuous process of "working it out" in both life and comedy.

Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh yeah, yeah. Cause I think it is in some ways comedy is, it's like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I see it as a value. But also, Mike, I walk around, I'm like, I'm having a good day. I'm having a good day. What the, what the mother you just got, you know, whatever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Bob Odenkirk. Yes. We got another one of my absolute favorite all time comedians, actors and writers today. In addition to having this unbelievable career where he created Mr. Show and was a writer on SNL and did all this work at Second City and worked with Chris Farley and all these like unbelievable things. Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, recently a Tony nominated performance in Glen Cary, Glen Ross. He is also an action movie star. He has a new movie coming out called Nobody 2. It is a sequel to Nobody 1. He also has this amazing book called Comedy Comedy Comedy Drama. That's four words. Comedy, comedy, comedy, Drama I think is one of the best books about comedy and the process of becoming a comedy writer performer and that I've read. So couldn't endorse that more highly. Thanks everybody. By the way, who has watched the Good Life on Netflix, the outpouring of messages and emails and direct messages on Instagram supporting it have meant the world to me. People posting about it on Instagram and their stories has meant the world to me. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have a few live shows coming up. We're currently, you know, I'm, I'm speaking spending a lot of my energy this summer writing my next movie as a follow up to Don't Think Twice. But I've also got a few live standup shows where I'm in support of John Mulaney's new hour along with Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen. The four of us will be together in New Haven, Connecticut, Bethel, New York, Portland, Maine, as well as Halifax. And then in September we'll be in Vancouver at Stanley park. [e-mail] this is, man, one of my favorite chats we've ever had on the podcast. An instant top 10. We get into the nuts and bolts of comedy craft. We talk about filmmaking, parenting long before Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Bob also played my brother in a pilot I did for CBS in 2008 that never got picked up. But it was really cool to work with him. Hopefully we'll work on another thing someday. He's in a new movie called Nobody 2. It opens August 15th. It is wild and fun. Enjoy my conversation with the great Bob Odenkirk. Between doing action movies, doing Better Call Saul, doing decades of comedy, I feel like you're exhausted.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're exhausted. Well, your career is like an example. It's like a piece of advice, basically, of don't limit yourself.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. I was riding my bike around Albuquerque on weekends, which is what I would do to de stress from Better Call Saul, especially the first two years. And there's, I think, I want to say, 300 miles of bike trails in Albuquerque, and I would go ride for five hours.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I needed it. Man, the first two years were so stressful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Really?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, God. I was like, what?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What about it?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Specifically, the amount of lines. This just. Can I do this at all? I mean, I didn't. I took one acting class in college.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I had to learn a lot. I mean, I was learning by doing it.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

With a camera in my face. And you better fucking learn. Now you have 10 seconds to learn how to act, because we're going. And the pressure was just through the roof, you know? And I knew the writing was great, but also, it was challenging writing. You know, if there's a texture or value to a monologue or a conversation dial piece that's scripted, you have to find that.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You have to bring it out without being overt about it or being too loud about it.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You have to get good at acting.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you have to do it right now. And everyone's watching and they're spending a lot of money and they're going to watch it all the way, all around the world. And it's. You know, see, I'm good at saying yes to things. Broadway show or an action movie. But then when you get to doing it, I'm like, what? What am I doing? What did I think I could.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have a history of people giving you more to do.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, so in. So in that case, starting with Saturday Night Live.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Right, Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So Saturday Live, you know, which I.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Didn'T really deliver on. And I talk about it in my book, about. I was finally good. I mean, Lauren might look at my journey and say, well, that's just normal. Two years. You took two years to figure out how the fucking show works. And in the third year, you were helpful.

[David Cross]

Yeah, that's fine.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And then I leave, which is not actually what you're supposed to do. If you. I really feel like that's where I owe him money.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, but then they did your sketch with Farley after you left. You say, this is your book. They did it verbatim, which is literally what as comedians, you constantly hear people go, they stole my sketch. They didn't.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, they gave me credit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, they did give me credit.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, yeah. No, Even though I'd left the show, my name's on. They paid me. They gave me credit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But that sketch, I mean, living in a van down by the river when I was growing up, I would say, is the north star of sketch comedy. It is a perfect comedy sketch.

[David Cross]

It is.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Well, what it is that's so good is it's got good structure to it, but it's. It's especially one reason I think maybe you like it is comedy. Sketch writers especially want the writing to matter. They want the writing to be the star. But the truth is, in sketch comedy, the performance is the star. Yeah, it is 70% performance, 30% writing, maybe more performance, maybe 80%. It just is. Yeah, that's what that field is, the quality of that field.

[David Cross]

Yes.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And that's sort of a. You could say maybe a 50. 50 sketch. Maybe it's 60 performance, 40 writing. Cause the writing is structurally kind of perfect.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You know, I got lucky, but it's closer to an equal app. Apportionment.

[David Cross]

But.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And then the other thing about it is you could do it as a. I could do that sketch as the motivational sketch and it'd be pretty funny and my natural rage would be on display and fun. But no one could beat Chris. I mean, there's no one who could do it better than Chris. I mean, it was a character that he was kind of doing. This coach character.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Which is why I went home and wrote it after we had done an improvisation where we were doing an anti drug speech. It was improvised to a high school group. And he did his coach and Matt Foley. I don't know if he used the name or not, but that is a name he came up with. Yeah, but he did that. Everything, you know, the swagger and stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it seems like.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And then I took it and I. I just. It really was based on kind of Tony Robbins.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Which was very popular at the time.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I think Tony's story too is that he was like a fat kid.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I was young or something. Like, I used to be this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's right.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I'm like, what about a guy who's like, I'm still this. You don't want to be me. You don't want to be me right now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so, I think the reason why it works. You tell me what else is working. But it's like. It works because it's simple and it's hypocrisy.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a character who's like, you need to do this thing, but I can't do it. But you should do it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. And also, he's so in love with himself and his performance. He knows he's a good presenter.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Shit. Well, look at what we have here. Bill Shakespeare, you know, he's, like, really loving himself. So he's happy, he's happily just putting himself down. And. And because it's Chris Farley. Come on.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

He's the best. Yeah. I always thought there was a movie in that, but of course, a sad movie, you know, about a guy who really lives in a van down by the river and he's thrice divorced and he's angry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's actually one of the things that you and I have in common. When you came to my show at the Beacon, we talked about it afterwards. Our dads both had, like, anger stuff.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. I feel like if my dad taught me two things, he didn't mean to teach it to me. He gave to me genetically the ability to go from zero to 80 and, you know, a second.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Of anger, which I do in Glengarry.

[David Cross]

Yes. Yes.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And my dad was like that. And so I feel like I just genetically got that.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And he taught me how to swing a golf club.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's good.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I don't play golf much.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But if I do and I play, let's say I. If I'm gonna play, I hit a range for three or three days beforehand.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And within three days, I've got a decent swing.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think. I think that you see a lot of people like you and I and many others who. Who had some angry dads, because I think it is, in some ways, comedy is. It's like a corralling of anger into something that can. Can be funny.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. Well, a lot of times, one of the funnest things, David Cross and I, when we would do Mr. Show, it's amazing how often in the morning we would do our, you know, generating ideas, just sitting there, oftentimes with the newspaper out. But it would. The sentence would start with, you know, it pissed me off.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And it's some stupid little thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You know, person in front of me. I was trying to get fucking coffee this morning, and this fucking person couldn't figure out, you know.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

How to make change for like. And you're like, it just turns into a comedy bit, you know? I feel that's true of a lot of Larry David stuff, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's the. It's. And that part of the fun is the degree of anger at the small thing. It's. It's not an important thing that you're that angry about. Right. You're so angry.

[David Cross]

Right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But that's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Something sets you off.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It's the thing that your dad had of going from zero to 80.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

On something that can be tiny.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which is hilarious.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I still have it.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I don't consider it a good thing in real life. And you know what bums me out about it the most is what's good about it is it's good in acting. It's kind of like a lack of barriers, emotional barriers, an ability to fly between feel his feelings, which is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's crucial.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I see it as a value. But also, Mike, I walk around, I'm. I'm. I'm like, I'm having a good day. I'm having a good. What the fuck? What the fuck? Motherfucker. You just got, you know, whatever, some little thing. I'm like, really? You just did that?

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

What is wrong with you?

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Your life couldn't be better.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you are having a great day.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And this small thing happened. It's not a plus. So I wanna. I really need to take a chapter here now and work on myself. Because part of it too, is that I got into this avenue of acting and these action films were. I felt a lot of pressure there, Mike, because I'm working in an area I didn't start in. And I've had to learn in the last 10 years. Try to learn quickly, try to pay attention to the people around me and understand what matters in this world. But also, it was almost by accident, like, well, slow down. You didn't choose this. I think I got to get back to maybe some comedy. Something that I think I've felt very alone in this pursuit. And of course you have a team around, you have other writers, you have producers and stuff, but I don't think Mr. Show, even though I had a great deal of power there, felt like a team effort still. And I like that. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's interesting.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Like, you're alone doing your show. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's true.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have a director and team and producers and my brother and my wife. But it is lonesome. Being a stand up is lonesome. Yeah, it's a lot of times you're out there in Terre Haute, Indiana, just going, okay, it's just me hands to podcast.

[David Cross]

Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, exactly. But you've worked with, I mean, you do these action films. You Better Call Saul and even like Greta Gerwig's movie, Steven Spielberg's movie. I mean, you're working with huge directors. Do you feel like when you're working with someone like Greta or Spielberg, are you learning as a director because you are a director? Are you in your director brain thinking, oh, I could do that?

[Bob Odenkirk]

I think the one thing I learned from directing three films is the first job you have as a director is picking the right story. And the story that you don't just go, oh, that would be fun, but that you understand why you should tell that story. And I don't think I really did that particularly well. I think Melvin Goes to Dinner was the first film I made, a very low budget film and. And Based on a Play is the best film that I made. And it's cause nobody was asking me to make it as a movie. I wasn't getting paid any money to make it as a movie. I just could see I had a vision for how to put that on screen.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was oozing out of this.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And the other films were more like a task of how would you direct this, how would you make this? And I had ideas, but they weren't the best, they weren't great. They didn't deliver a great film. And so that's your first job.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I imagine I might one day again have that feeling about a story. But I haven't yet. I haven't yet. Certainly not the action films that I've made. I haven't said I should direct, I should direct this. No, no. And the opposite. I've said you get somebody who knows this stuff. And I've certainly worked hard on the writing and structure of the story, but even there I back off. Especially with nobody. I mean, I sort of to some extent with the action films, I sort of say I'm here to work on it until we get to page 50. And once we get to page 50 and the big action is going, you tell me where to stand. Because until once that starts, I don't know what's. You get into a magical, mythical world of violence and well, I don't have any bearings and I can't tell you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Have you gotten Advice from like a Keanu Reeves or a Tom Cruise about how to do action films, how to be an action star.

[Bob Odenkirk]

No, it's all learning on my own. And the one thing that's the greatest challenge for me is, and I fucked up two times on screen. I don't want to tell you what.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's on. It's in the final cut.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But I also have fixed it a few times. So what I do that is wrong, that I do wrong is one of the things that I thought I could. When I thought about doing this, when I saw the opportunity was possible, I thought a lot about what can I bring to this genre? Well, I really am not super handsome, super young or super muscular. So I'm really a guy you don't expect to be the hero and to win the fight. So one thing I can do is bring a vulnerability and an honest presence. A surprise when I kick into some gear. Cause you really don't expect it. No matter. You can put the rock, you can put glasses on him and a tie and you still go, he's gonna kick somebody's ass.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Say he's an accountant. You're just like, finish the book so you can kick the ass.

[David Cross]

Like. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the adage about the. Once there's a gun on stage, the gun's gonna go off during the play. The rock is gonna kick someone from.

[Bob Odenkirk]

The first, you know, shot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's the gun.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I'm not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And so I thought I could bring a vulnerability. Well, that vulnerability. And I wanted to play pain, like, obviously not real pain, but I wanted to at least play, you know, ah, fuck, you know, that hurt and holding stuff and limping and kind of building it as the fight goes, I'm getting less flexible.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

So I thought I could play that. But I've discovered using some sensitivity and instinct that you can be too vulnerable. They still want a hero.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. The audience wants a hero.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. And if you're too weak.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

There's a point, I think, where you're watching that person, you go, like, I can't be on his side.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

He's. I think he's gonna get killed or he's feeling too much pain. And I think I've taken it too far at times.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I did. I'm proud of myself. In Nobody 2, there was a scene towards the end and I. And I shot it. And we shot it and it was cold and it was an all night shoot. And we got the shot. Okay. We got it. And I was like, wait, let me watch it back. I watched it back. I said, I gotta do it again. Yeah, I gotta do it again.

[David Cross]

Wow.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Because I was just being too vulnerable, too hurt.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Too in pain, too. And I'm like, I can't. I can't. I can't keep cheering for that guy. Almost.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And. And so we did it again, and I said, and only use that take. Use that take. Do not touch the other takes. Anyway, we.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We played brothers on a TV pilot that didn't go to air.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. Good one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Pretty good, I think.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was, like, in 2008, and we should play brothers again, I think. So we got to figure out a movie where it makes sense that we have a story. You have the story.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I totally do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you serious? Have a brother story?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Well, a brother's in it, and it's important. Oh, yeah. And are you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you write it yet?

[Bob Odenkirk]

I've working on it, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's a. It's like the opposite of everything I've been doing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No kidding.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's like a. Like. Well, Nicole Hollisner and I were talking about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I love.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Like a Nicole type.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I love Nicole. Some. One of my favorite filmmakers.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

So I continued to develop it. Nicole, if you're watching. And I'm gonna keep trying to get that to happen, but it's. It would be great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I would love that. Well, it's funny because you're saying this thing that rings true to me so much, which is about movies, which is. Yeah. It has to be a story that you have to make.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It has to be right. And I feel like you learn that you can learn that the hard way.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you. Movies. People don't realize this takes you years to write a movie. At least a year to write a movie. It takes you a year to shoot a movie, basically a year to edit. And by the time it gets out, it's like at least three to five years that you've spent on one story.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So that better be a good story.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And when it comes out in the world, it will be attacked. And you want to feel like it was worth it. I had to try. I couldn't not try to write and make that movie. And whether you think you pulled it off and all the critics are wrong, or you think, I'm sorry, the critics are right, I just didn't finish this thing.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I didn't get it. You still want to feel like, I did everything I could and I wanted to tell that story Cause when you feel like, I didn't need to. I didn't want to fully. I wasn't all there, and it didn't work, that's the fucking worst.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's pain.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you're saying the critics are right and I didn't try as hard as I could have.

[David Cross]

Awful.

[Bob Odenkirk]

That's the fucking worst.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the worst.

[Bob Odenkirk]

First you want to call every critic and go, you're right. What you want to be able to say is, you're right. But you, man, I had to do that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had to do that.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I stand up for myself.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it's funny, like in. I just saw you in Glengarry Glen Ross, and you're brilliant in it. Your character is an amazing David Mamet character who has high highs and low lows and high highs from sentence from.

[Bob Odenkirk]

One line to the next.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you. But what's funny about it is seeing within a week of itself seeing you in Glengarry Glen Ross, reading your book. Your book is a lot of that. Your book is, you're up, you're down, you're up. You're a big star. You have nothing. You're frustrated. Do you feel like you drew on.

[Bob Odenkirk]

That in the truth? Oh, for sure. For sure. I do draw on all the ups and downs.

[David Cross]

Yes. Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I will say in my book, my. I had a great desire to talk as much as possible about failure.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I think I did.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But the truth is, I didn't share all the failure.

[David Cross]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's more.

[Bob Odenkirk]

There's more that didn't make it into the book because it was too much. Yeah, it was. It. Also honest. Let's face it, it's hard to talk about it. A TV show that you maybe spent eight months on that you made or didn't make. Made the pilot, rewrote the pilot four times, and nobody's ever seen it. And you can't read it anywhere.

[David Cross]

Yeah. That's.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's hard to share that with an audience and go like, oh, it was good here and it was bad there. And, like, I don't know. I can't read it. I can't see it.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I just got to believe you that this is. What. How do I know any of that is true?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You know, but I mean, I wrote pilots that got passed on. I wrote and made pilots that I went, oh, fuck. That's just. I didn't figure it out.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I wrote pilots that I thought, this is really good. And I had one network executive once call me and go, this is the best pilot I've ever read. We're passing on it. That's funny. And.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I knew I've ever read him passing on it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I knew he was right. I knew that it was solid.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's just a fickle business. Like it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I think. Yeah. And then the why they pick one show over another can be reasons that seem empty and stupid.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But maybe pan out. Or they have a whole different job than you. Your job is to think about what you care about and a point of view. You have on it something worth sharing with the world and then pursue it.

[David Cross]

And.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And then their job is to decide what to show people. I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Support for working it out comes from Quint. We love Quince. Quint is an online retailer that has clothes, accessories, home goods and more. It's all ethically made. Made to last. I love shopping on there. It's summertime. You can get some new summer clothes. Go to quince.com, check out their special summer collections. Click on the Vacation Shop or the Summer Edit. You'll find nice, lightweight clothes for the summer. They've got summer accessories like sunglasses, backpacks, sneakers. Really nice stuff. Great prices. Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. And premium fabrics and finishes. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quints. Go to quince.comperbigs for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.comBIR B I G S to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comprabigs I met you and you wouldn't remember this when you did the naked improv sketch at Radio City. I was at that show.

[Bob Odenkirk]

So crazy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was unbelievable.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It was such a thin premise. We did it probably seven years earlier and we did it at our first time we ever did anything together.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Me and David. Which was the Montreal Comedy Festival.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Where he invited me to come up with them. And we just made up shit that day and did it that night somewhere.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And we did that bit and we talked about if we ever did a big charity event, this would be a bit to do. And we did it one more time.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Remember where? And then we got invited to do Comic Relief 8. And we're like, well, we're doing that sketch.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was on hbo and I was in. I was in the live audience. And the premise is basically doing improv.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Hey, everybody. We've had a good time. We had done some bit earlier. We Had a good time tonight. I'm a. You know, we're actors from la. David Cross, Bob Odenkirk. I am actually. David's a teacher of improvisation and I've been taking his classes. And we're going to do a. If you. If you're up for it, we'd like to do an improv for you. And David goes, okay, we're going to have fun. It's called naked phrase guests. Bob, you're going to. I'm going to ask the audience for a. You're going to leave the stage. I'm going to ask the audience for a phrase, then I'm going to tell it. Then you're going to come back on stage and we will do a scene. And you will have to try to guess the phrase from the clues of acting the scene.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I go, that's great. That sounds like fun. I've never done that. That's great. And then he goes, okay, great. So go off stage, you know, where no one can. Where you can't hear. We'll have somebody monitor the door. And take your clothes off and come back out here when you get. When you're told to come back out. I go, yeah, great, great. I go, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. What? Just go. You have to go where you can't hear. So otherwise you're gonna hear the phrase. So go off to that room. We have a room for you. Take your clothes off and then come back out on stage and we'll get going. And I go, okay, I'm sorry. You want me to take my clothes off? Yeah. Well, it's called naked phrase guessing, and that's what you have to. It's part of the thing. Okay, Okay. I don't know. I don't know. I've never done this. Okay? And I go. And I take my clothes off. I did put a sock over my. Yeah, And I put my hand over the sock. And then I came out. In Radio City Music Hall. David had gotten a phrase. And then part of the joke is that I get the phrase pretty quickly, but he keeps going. And the audience is like, he said the phrase, you know? And at some point, I'm sensing that I'm just being played with. And I go, you fucking asshole. You fucking lied to me. I go, you said it. Whatever. And everyone cheers for me.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The crowd went nuts. I thought it was like one of the most punk rock live comedy bits I'd ever seen. I couldn't believe he did it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It was stupid. And I was totally. I had no issue with it. And I could do it today and proudly show off my 62 year old body. But the truth is, the hardest part is when you're done with the sketch. As soon as the sketch is over, you're like, I'm fucking naked. What the fuck happened? And I know that's weird because you're like, you're sentient, you know, you got naked and got. But again, there's something wrong with me.

[David Cross]

Yes.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Which is probably one reason. I have some facility as an actor and I'm able to do that.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And not until the sketch is over am I embarrassed at all.

[David Cross]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because. Right. You say this in the book. You're like, I wouldn't, as Bob Odenkirk, get naked. But that's what the character.

[Bob Odenkirk]

He's gotta get naked.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's gotta get naked.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Look, when I watch myself in editing bays, I've never said, cut me or cut me back, or I say that guy, that guy, that guy. Sniff of that guy. Yeah, I'm talking about me. But yeah, I don't say. I just don't think of it that way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. It's a little fucked up because it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This certain type of disassociation.

[David Cross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's. So I met you at the party after Comic Relief that night. I came up to you. Oh, my God, I'm a college improviser and I love that sketch. It was amazing. And you were talking to Bob Zamuda, who is Andy Kaufman's comedy partner. Legendary Bob Zamuda. And it was really funny. I'll always remember this. You go, listen, I'm talking to Bob Zamuda right now. I can't talk to you, but good luck. And it was like, I appreciated the candor of it. Do you feel like that's indicative of a certain type of candor you have? Cause that's so specific.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I do think that all I know how to do is sometimes just being simply honest is just the very best thing you can ever do.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

In awkward moments. Yeah, I'm awkward right now. This is upsetting to me. Or whatever you want to say. You know, we do the sign line, the autograph line after the Broadway show. I don't know when this became part of Broadway. Yes, it's fucking. You have to do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The stage door.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You fucking have to do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The stage door's a big thing.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I missed one night. I got a call from the producers. Wow, I heard you're not doing that. I go, wait, I skipped one night. I Thought it's not part of the job.

[David Cross]

Right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

No. But, you know, the audience kind of. I'm like, I mean, really, you want to put that in the contract next time, you know, But I get it. It has become a tradition.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a culture.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's not cool. We just did a show for you maybe two in the day. Maybe two. And now I have to sign 80 fucking autographs. And you know, but whatever. The people are couldn't be nicer. And I get. You get compliments from people. But it can be weird. There can be weird moments.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you know, the best way. I think the best way to handle it is just say, this is a weird moment.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You want something from me that I don't have time to give. Yeah, I understand that. But I can't do it and just say as honestly, simply, just call it the way it is as possible, what's happening here and why it's not. Anyway, not that you needed that explanation.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no. It's funny because you have a thing that I try to practice too, which is you're obsessed with like, you know, if you have a movie script, you have friends over and do a reading of it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, you kind of workshop things. I always say to people who watch this show or listen to this show. If you're a creative, try to find a few people who do the same thing and just read each other your stuff and talk about your stuff. And you know that that's kind of always my advice. And it's like, how did you arrive at that as an idea?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. Maybe you could say it's taken a little while. I do think, you know, I. I had a strange misplaced confidence when I was very young doing it. But you need that too.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You need this kind of weird, like, it. I can do this better than them. When you're like, no, you definitely can't.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You need that weird drive and certainty. Or maybe just the joy of doing it is so great that. That it gets you through.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But I'll tell you, there's. That's been a hard thing for me to navigate is how much I share the decision making with other people. I came out of Mr. Show feeling like that was fun. I'm really proud of it. But I was too much of a. I was too powerful in that room and I was too demanding of people. That my way or the highway? Yeah, I. I'm proud of it. I think everyone is. But can I be a more collaborative person?

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I would say I went and Made some projects where I was too collaborative.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Where I said, I don't like that thing, but these two people like it, so it stays in.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And that can be a mistake too, because it's like. It's hard to modulate where. Right. Because I think when you're directing a movie and you're writing a movie.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You. No matter. You gotta try to see other people's points of view. See what they're pointing to when they say, why don't you do this with that? Why doesn't this happen? See what they're pointing to? Maybe you don't use their choice of where it goes, but they're pointing to something. Uncertainty. A weakness, maybe.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And it could be a weakness just in your presentation of, like, they're not hearing what you think is important, so they're going another way. So you have to make that clearer, you know. But you do have to own it in the end.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You know, as your movie proves, you do it have to go like. I just think it needs to be this way. You have.

[David Cross]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it's the difference between you having the vision and you supporting someone else's vision, I think.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. I'd say these action films have been very collaborative and. Because, again, there is a point in those films where I don't know what I'm doing. And I know that, and I say I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. You're the vessel.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I don't know what's happening. I don't know what you can do here. Now we're on page 60. And I just got thrown, you know, across the room. And, you know, the bad guy has sent 80 people after me. And I don't know where to start with that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've had, you know, in your movie, there's like a home. In the first one, there's a home invasion.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You had a home invasion?

[David Cross]

Two.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Two.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Two home invasions. Yeah. One was very disturbing. One was also disturbing, but a little less so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the first one?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Well, I really won't tell the whole story, but I woke up. My kids were young. My son was 12, my daughter was 10. And it was like 6am And I got up. Our house was kind of split into two sides. The bedrooms over here. And then this side had the kitchen and the living room. And I walk into this area and to get the breakfast started and stuff. And all the windows are open and the door is open. And I thought, first of all, the cat got out. Of course. We gotta find the goddamn cat. And then also. But who did that? And then I thought, well, okay, okay, okay, okay. There was 2am There was a skunk. My wife got up, she opened all the windows, the door fell open.

[David Cross]

Okay.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And she put the cat downstairs.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

So that must be what happened. A skunk. Because that can happen.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Not that it happens a lot.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

So I tell my son, go downstairs, see if you can find the cat. And I'm gonna go outside and see if I can find the cat under the porch area. It shut all these windows. So I go out there, I'm looking, looking, looking, and my son comes up and he goes, there's. There's a man downstairs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh my gosh.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I go, okay, do you know who it is? And he goes, no. And I go, okay, we'll go to the other side of the house, shut the door, tell mom, and you guys stay there. I'm gonna call the police. I call the police, I open the front door, I get out my baseball bat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, sure.

[David Cross]

Come on. Yeah, come on.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Come on, Louisville Slugger, let's go. You know why we got those bats? So dumb. So dumb. But what the fuck else am I gonna do?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I didn't have a golf club nearby.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Then what?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Train get Mace.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm on the edge of my seat.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Pepper spray.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Then what?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Then I yell downstairs, I go, the police are on their way. You can walk out the front door if you want. I'll let you walk out. Just come up and walk out and you'll be fine. The police are on their way.

[David Cross]

Wow.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Nothing, you know, said it again. Nothing. Of course, if the guy had come up the stairs, I'm standing there with a baseball. I don't know. Police, go, show up, go downstairs. Time goes by, few minutes, comes back up, he goes, I called for backup. I mean, I think I counted 13 cops, two detectives and 11 cops with guns. Go downstairs. They eventually brought the guy up. I don't want to go into the specifics, but he was not anyone I knew. And he was clearly like a methed out face. His eyes were going two different directions. And then a few years later, not un dissimilar really, we woke up, car was gone, my guitar was gone, all the computers are gone. And on security cameras. The guy comes in at 2am he was able to open the garage from the remote that was in the car that was parked outside. He goes in, he takes all the important stuff, puts it in my wife's car and drives away and shuts the garage door. He was a pro. He was there to take things.

[David Cross]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Not to interact with anyone.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Not to have any problem.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Gotta respect it. You gotta respect that.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. No weapons on him, I'm sure.

[David Cross]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Had a plan.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Had a plan.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Had a vision.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's an artist of sorts.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And so the way those two incidents are operative to making these films is I. The feelings I had regarding those incidents, it's just. Were always fresh.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Years later.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How could you ever shake.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Years later.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I'm a non violent guy.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But honestly, you let me have a few minutes with that first guy.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't want to see it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I would throw anything I could at him.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All your dad's anger, that guy.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I don't give a shit.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I don't give a shit how high he was. I don't give a shit what his problems were.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's your baby bear.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's animalistic. You're protecting your family.

[Bob Odenkirk]

What's potentially good about a movie with such expression is you get to express.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It, you get to unlock it.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yes. And I like just acknowledging that it exists. You're not pretending that you don't feel those things.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah, I do feel those things.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is a thing that we loved that you said, which is out of a hundred movies, there's two classics. There's twelve worth seeing. There's another fifteen that are fine. The rest are just a mess. Why do you think that is? And what are your two good movies? What are two good movies?

[Bob Odenkirk]

There's too many moving parts in a movie. There's just too much that you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You have to have a degree of luck and magic.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you should kill yourself when you make a movie. And you should work on every detail and you should take it to the limit. And when you're in editing, here's what you should do everything you can think of to make it work.

[David Cross]

Right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But it still may not work at all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Amen.

[Bob Odenkirk]

That's just movies.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's movies.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And it's true. And honestly, the most buttoned down films. Obviously. Kubrick is referenced as a filmmaker who was wildly detail oriented.

[David Cross]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Perfectionist.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I'm not a huge fan of his stuff. No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It doesn't make me feel anything.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's kind of like a painting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The closest for me is like Full Metal Jacket.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where I'm like, oh, it shakes me.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And maybe the Shining.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Maybe the Shining. Yeah. I'm glad for the fans. He's got massive fans and I respect them. They're smart, but it's kind of, like, you know, but what's your.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so if it's not Kubrick, then who really puts you in that zone?

[Bob Odenkirk]

The movie Chinatown, I think is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, Chinatown's amazing.

[Bob Odenkirk]

My favorite film.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Truly.

[Bob Odenkirk]

American Graffiti is a great film. Really great. Ron Howard. I want to tell you what I think acting.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Maybe ever is.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Not Daniel Day Lewis.

[David Cross]

Okay.

[Bob Odenkirk]

He's great.

[David Cross]

Very good.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Ricky Gervais in the first office.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Unbelievable. No argument. No argument. He's fantastic.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's crazy how real he feels and how much there's layers in what he's doing. How much, like, pain is inside this absolute clown of a human, clearly tapped.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Into something personal in himself.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It really ranks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I think so. Too slow round.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Who?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you jealous of everybody right now?

[Bob Odenkirk]

I really am. It's crazy. I've just done this thing, but after the last five years, I feel so off balance.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who's the person you thought of that you didn't say specifically who?

[Bob Odenkirk]

I'm jealous of?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who you're jealous of?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Gee, anybody who's still got little kids at home growing up.

[David Cross]

Oh, yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

There's no question. I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was being a dad. I mean, that was my job. And I didn't have to ask myself, what am I doing here?

[David Cross]

What am I doing?

[Bob Odenkirk]

How can I be a part of this world? How can I be meaningful Today? I didn't have to ask that question, because the fucking answer is, pick up everything between here and the door.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And make sure they get to school and have a laugh with them. You know, life was. I understood my purpose.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Best answer.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And, you know, I'm surrounded by these guys who have kids, you know, Kieran Culkin.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Bill Burr.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I envy them. I envy them as stressed as they are, because they have to do this job and take some away. I guess you know who you are when you leave here. You absolutely know who you are.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You're a dad. Anyway.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I love that. What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, that I used to. Daniel Bernhardt told me, my trainer, in a kind of an angry way. Not that he was angry at me, but he was like. We were exercising, and I was, like, talking about losing weight. Not that I want to lose weight, but it just had come across in our conversation. He goes, you don't lose weight by working out.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

You lose it by eating. Right. He's angry.

[David Cross]

Yep.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I go, what? He goes, people think you fucking Lose weight by working out. It's 80% diet. And from that moment on, I cut way back on sugar.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And it's been amazing. Amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I did not think that was gonna be the answer.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Why? What did you think it would be?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Something about writing or being alive. I mean, one of the most pedigreed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Comedy writers of the last century. I'm like, what's the best piece of advice someone's giving you? Is like, gotta cut sugar. You gotta cut carbs. You just gotta.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Arguably, I've been the most. The biggest gym rat of the last six years.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you remember a moment in your life where you were kind of an inauthentic version of yourself?

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, a lot of times, yeah. Pretty much any interview I do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, really? Well, but this feels pretty on the red carpet. Oh, yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Not here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This feels pretty.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But any red carpet interview.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Any red carpet interview.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Look, look, look. It's a thing I. Did you ever think you'd be a celebrity?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No. No, no.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Yeah. I thought he'd be a writer.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

I thought he'd be a writer act.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And I understood that PR was part of that at some point.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

But the amount of PR that I've done, asked to do. I mean, of course it appeals to your ego. People want to, what do you think? What do you do? Where'd you come from? And that's pretty great. It's pretty nice, special feeling. But I never trained for it, planned for it, thought much about it. And at some point, I realized what you have to do is you have to remember that you are sitting at a wedding table.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And it's not your wedding.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And the uncle of the person getting married is sitting next to you. And the neighbor and a young person who's around your age or younger than you, and nephew.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you don't know them, and they don't know you. They don't really know what you do. And you. They are always. That's who you're talking to. When you're on a talk show where you're on a red carpet, you're at.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Someone else's wedding, Right?

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And you have to be clear.

[David Cross]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And when people go, you're Better Call Saul, you have to go, yes. I play that character. My name is Bob Odenkirk, and I'm an actor, and I was on a show called Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. And you may think you sound like an ass, but you're not. Because there's a bunch of people watching who are Going, oh, I never knew that Breaking Bad. I've heard of that show. And we all think we can just be ourselves and chat and make comments and be calm and casual. You can't. You have to be on your presenting. And these are kind strangers who have somehow, through YouTube or the TV that was just on, being forced to listen to you.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

They don't know who you are.

[David Cross]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The. The final thing we do is working it out for a cause. Is there an organization that you like to support? And we will contribute to them and then link to them in the show notes.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, great. Food on Foot is an amazing organization in LA that I help out and they really have a program that helps people who are unhoused find work and housing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's fantastic.

[Bob Odenkirk]

It's a long term thing. They work with people over the course of a long period of time.

[David Cross]

Yeah.

[Bob Odenkirk]

And it is wonderful. And they've done amazing work.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We'll contribute to Food on Foot. We'll link in the show notes. And Bob Odenkirk, such an absolute honor.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Thank you, Bob.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I barely have the composure.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Oh, buddy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

To speak with you because I'm in such awe of all of you.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Well, that's very nice of you.

[David Cross]

Working it out because it's not done.

[Bob Odenkirk]

We're working it out because there's no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's going to do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Bob on Instagram at the real Bob odenkirk. Check out Nobody 2. In theaters August 15th. The full video, this one like two people looking in a mirror. Basically twins. It's on YouTube. Subscribe because we're going to be posting more and more videos. Check out birdigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Oona, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please do us a little favor. Go on Apple Podcasts, put a little review in. Say, hey, we like this one. I like this other one. Super helpful, especially if people are just finding the show and they don't know where to start. There's 170 episodes, all free, no paywall.

[Bob Odenkirk]

Thanks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Most of all, to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you think someone's your friend, and then you do an improv scene where they trick you into becoming naked in front of Radio City Music Hall. And after the show, you hear, hey, I want to talk to you about something. I was completely naked in Radio City, and it was a little embarrassing, but, you know, maybe we could talk out our process together, and we could learn a few things by listening to this podcast. It's Mike Birbigli. He talks out process and jokes and tags, and maybe the tag could be, you get naked next time. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.