← Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
184. KC Shornima: Get Comfortable With This Darkness
01:04:52
Comedian and SNL writer KC Shornima might be the only Working It Out guest who has climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. KC and Mike get to the bottom of why she thrives in stressful situations like mountain climbing, camping on a glacier, and writing for Weekend Update. Mike asks KC some questions from her bosses, Michael Che and Colin Jost, and KC explains why she feels compelled to talk about difficult topics on stage. Please note: This episode contains discussion of sexual assault.
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- [00:01]
A
If you look at the cadence and, like, format of a tragedy, it's the same as a joke, right? Like, there's like a setup tension and then there's this really unexpected event.
- [00:11]
B
Yeah.
- [00:12]
A
And that is the cadence of a joke. And so like, when you look at like Oedipus Rex, you know, it's like a really funny story if you just change like the theme song, right? It's like he gets this oracle and then the oracle's like, you're gonna kill your dad and fuck your mom. And he's like, oh, my God, I really don't want to do that. I'm just gonna like, go. Go out and do other stuff. And then that whole quest ends with him killing his dad and his mom. And that's so funny.
- [00:36]
B
Yeah, Great payoff.
- [00:38]
A
And you know, it's funny because that's every episode of that's so Raven.
- [00:48]
B
That is the voice of the great Casey Shnema. Casey is a standup comedian who I've wanted to have on this show for forever. She's a writer for Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live. She got her start in Nashville. We talk about her origin of getting into standup, which is one of the most interesting origin stories of getting into standup I've ever heard. This episode is here where you're listening, but also on our YouTube channel. If you wanted to watch this episode, it is. Ikebirbiglia is my channel. Or you can search Working it out, which we just hit 60,000 subscribers. Thank you to everyone who subscribed. If you haven't, give it a shot. The video episodes are really fun. Today on the show we have KC Shornima. This is a great conversation today with Casey. We talk about kind of dark jokes. I mean, she is like a incredible practitioner of dark topics. She has like a fascinating personal life story that we talk about a bit today. And she just got back from Edinburgh Fringe Festival where she did her full hour long show. If you're able to see her on tour, by all means try to do that. Her Instagram is Shornima. Yeah, we just have a great chat today. We talk about writing for snl. I have a question written in from Michael Che and another one from Colin Jost. She climbed a mountain, by the way. Not many of our guests have done that. Stay tuned for that and enjoy my conversation with the great Casey Shornema. I saw you the other night and you were killing, but you were alluding to that you did like a rape joke up front and that you lost, but then on stage you were Like, I'm just getting you back from the rape joke I opened with.
- [02:43]
A
I open with it now, which is, like. It just. It's very new. And so I feel like if I don't open with it, I'm gonna. Like. Like, if a set's going well, I'm gonna lose my nerve. I'm gonna be like, well, I don't wanna ruin this now with bringing up rape. Like, it's not bad.
- [02:56]
B
Do you ever get complaints?
- [02:58]
A
Estee hasn't told me if there's been, like, complaints. Complaints. If there has.
- [03:03]
B
But no one has said it to you or, like, has shouted out.
- [03:06]
A
No, no, people have gotten mad at me after. But it's very, like. I mean, to me, it's just like. It's not like I'm, like, making fun of people who are. You know, it's like.
- [03:18]
B
Right. The target of the joke is not someone who's raped.
- [03:20]
A
Of course. Also, like, I'm, like, talking about my own experience, which I found out is, like, people really. This is so dumb. But, like, people who get offended, they're very. You know, they're liberal. I'm liberal. Like, it's like, we're all liberal here, right? But they want me to get raped if I'm gonna talk about it. It's like, they're so liberal. They've come around to being like, you better have been fucking raped. And I'm like, okay, I guess I will.
- [03:50]
B
You know, we're gonna need some paperwork on this.
- [03:53]
A
I know. And then. But then if you say it, they're like, oh, no, you got raped. And it's like, well, what do you want?
- [03:58]
B
It brings down the room.
- [03:59]
A
Yeah. Like, I don't know how to make you happy.
- [04:02]
B
Yeah. It's a weird thing.
- [04:04]
A
Have we started, or is this a conversation?
- [04:05]
B
This is the whole thing.
- [04:06]
A
Oh, okay.
- [04:06]
B
We're gonna release this five minutes, and that's gonna be the whole thing. You're one of my favorite comics. Two weeks in a row, one of my favorite comics. Ryan Hamilton and kc. Yeah.
- [04:17]
A
I was just listening to that episode.
- [04:18]
B
Couldn't be more different comedians.
- [04:20]
A
Yeah.
- [04:21]
B
Like, you and Ryan, so different from each other. But your jokes are so dark. Like, so many of them are so dark.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, they're really dark. Sometimes I'll be on stage and I'm like, man, I am putting them through it. I cannot bring up another thing right now. I try to do, like, silly stuff in the middle sometimes, and then I'll just be like. It's almost like they're like, where the hell is this Coming from.
- [04:48]
B
Right.
- [04:48]
A
And it's like. Well, sometimes I'm silly. It's not all dark, you know? Yeah.
- [04:54]
B
Yeah. How do you arrive at that? Like, who did you. Like when you're starting out, like, who are you watching? Like, how do you arrive at, like, dark jokes?
- [05:04]
A
Well, I think when I first watched comedy, like, for the first time, and this is such a. This is. It always makes people laugh. When I first came to America, I, like, watched, like, Def Jam.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah.
- [05:16]
A
But, like, I didn't speak English very well, but it was really, like, I found it very funny because you just know from the tone and the cadence where you're supposed to laugh. And I used to love. Like, I watched Sinbad.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah. Sinbad film. One of the first.
- [05:30]
A
Yeah. But it was, like, at a time where not only would I not get the joke, I barely understood. Like, I was like.
- [05:37]
B
It was your introduction into English. Yes.
- [05:38]
A
I was like, I don't understand cultural references. I barely understand English. But it's like, killing, you know? It's like earthquake. Like, killing. And then, like, when I was, like, thinking about doing comedy, which I never really had a full thought about it, but it was like, Ali Wong special had just come out. Neil Brennan's, like, three mics had just come out. And, like, I was, like, a huge fan of, like, Mulaney. You, like, I'd listen to you on NPR for, like, you know, my sister and I are obsessed with npr.
- [06:06]
B
Like, we're, like, big, like, same nerds.
- [06:08]
A
But, like, we were obsessed with your specials. And, like, so all of that was in the back of my head. But I never thought I would do comedy.
- [06:15]
B
Yeah.
- [06:15]
A
I was just like, it's just not something I would. I had, like, other plans.
- [06:19]
B
What were those? I had other plans.
- [06:22]
A
I, like, I. Like, so many random plans. Like, I. Well, I did teach for America, so I was like, I want to do. I want to be, like, a teacher, maybe.
- [06:30]
B
Right.
- [06:31]
A
Then I took the lsat. I was like, I'm going to be a lawyer.
- [06:33]
B
Oh, okay.
- [06:34]
A
Then I went to Columbia. I was like, I'm going to work for the State Department. And then I was like. I was drunk one night at a bar, and there was an open mic, and I was like, I'm just going to do comedy. This is what I'm doing now.
- [06:50]
B
You told me this story one night, and I think it's the best comedy origin story, which is that someone else in your group was doing comedy, and you didn't think he was funny.
- [07:00]
A
And he was the worst. He, like, he was the worst. He Was like, he was a white boy who rapped on stage, right?
- [07:08]
B
Sure.
- [07:08]
A
And which. Some people do it really well. But he did that for the first time at an open mic. And then he came up to me. Cause I made fun of him. And he said something, like, really rude to me. It was, like, very. Like, we'd gone to brunch that day, and I'm like, a funny person in conversation sometimes. And he was like, the only reason people laugh because I said something really, really mean to him. And then he said, the only reason people laugh at you is because they want to fuck you. Or something really crude. And I was like, I could do a better job than you right now. Right now on stage, I could do a better job than you. And then I was like, I don't want to hang out with these people anymore. So then I just started hanging out with comics at this point, like, bar where you could smoke indoors. I used to smoke cigarettes. So I was like, this is perfect for me. I can smoke inside. I can do. I can drink. I can, like. Yeah, it was a perfect setup.
- [07:58]
B
And then you did. He had done comedy.
- [08:01]
A
Yeah, that was his first time acting.
- [08:03]
B
And then you did comedy. Did you do it that night?
- [08:05]
A
That night, I didn't do comedy. I had the story. I just knew the story was funny to me.
- [08:11]
B
Okay.
- [08:12]
A
And it was, like, a perfect story. It was, like, about farting. There was, like, every element, right.
- [08:17]
B
To surprise.
- [08:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. It had a big surprise. It had tension leading up to it. And I was like, this will work. And you just have to do, like, five minutes. And I was like, I can get off at three because it's an open mic. And so I just did that.
- [08:30]
B
And it did well.
- [08:31]
A
It did fine. I mean, it's not, like, an incredible story, honestly. This story also. This story also. The story is just like, when I was in college, I took, like, this Russian lit class. It was a Dostoevsky class. And I loved that class. And our professor was this, like, Russian man who would say things like, you know, God is buried in, like, Lenin's tomb in the Red Square. Like, he was just a very dark Russian man. And I loved that class. He loved me. And, like, at the end of the year, I was, like, graduating early. And at the end of the year, he was like, you know, why don't you come to my office? We'll talk about, like, whatever. So I'm in his office. It's, like, all mahogany. It's like this really nice office. All books. And he's like, you know, what are Your plans, whatever. And it's just me and him, and he's giving me these, like, Russian lit, like, books that he think I would really like. It was this really sweet moment, but also it has this undertone of tension of, like, if it's gonna be a joke, is he gonna try something? Like, people can kind of. It was, like, right around me, too. So everyone in the audience, I think, thought he was gonna touch me.
- [09:31]
B
Right.
- [09:32]
A
But instead what happens is, like, he's, like, picking out this, like, Pushkin book, and he's like, I think you would really like this. And I farted. It's just the two of us, so it's not like I can be like, what hap. Like. And it was like, not only was it audible, it was also in the air. I was like, let's go to the other shelf. I think I'm interested in those books. And then, like, I'd also said some, like, corny stuff. You know when you're in college and you're, like, so corny. He was like, I think, I think. And when I say I think, I know I said this because it, like, like, reverbs in my head so often. I was gonna go to, like, Croatia or something, and I was like, I'm so embarrassed. It's so much more embarrassing than farting. I said, I think if I'm gonna stare into the void, and the void is staring back at me, I hope it's the Adriatic scene. And it was just. Just horrific. Oh, my God. Anyways, he wrote my recommendation to Fulbright, like, the year after. I was like, hey, can we meet up?
- [10:45]
B
Oh, and that's the other thing. You got a Fulbright, right?
- [10:48]
A
Yeah.
- [10:49]
B
Jesus Christ. What a weird.
- [10:51]
A
What a weird. I know. I really thought.
- [10:53]
B
But also, like, what a. If. What other people has a Fulbright life. Yeah. What a weird life.
- [10:58]
A
I mean, I clearly thought I was going to do something else.
- [11:01]
B
Yeah, your, like, life story is so unique. But I'm reluctant to ask you about it because I literally talked to you about it, like, three times at the Comedy Cellar, where you're like, it's so annoying when people ask me about this.
- [11:12]
A
Well, like, it's not that it's annoying when people ask me, it's that when people, like, really assume. Like, a lot of people really assume the craziest things about it and, like, infer that, like. Like, I. I did the Fringe this year, and this is, like, kind of random. But it's like, before my show there, there was, like, a trigger warning. They would send out in an email being like, this show will talk about war.
- [11:36]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [11:37]
A
And rape, which sounds like, I got raped in a war. And I'm like, well, that's not what happened. But if you were getting that email.
- [11:47]
B
You would be like, also, spoiler alert.
- [11:49]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Also, why would you put. I was like, you mean.
- [11:53]
B
You mean my big closer.
- [11:54]
A
Yeah, my big. I got raped in a war zone closer. I was like, those are two separate stories. But when you put it like that, it sounds. Also, what kind of email is that you get before you go to a comedy show? What?
- [12:07]
B
Awful.
- [12:08]
A
Awful. One of my friends sent me a screenshot of it. I was like.
- [12:11]
B
And also, like, without your permission, probably.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah.
- [12:14]
B
I mean, like, its own type of rape. We'll take this out.
- [12:20]
A
That's what I say to crowds. I'll be like, I know you guys don't want to talk about rape, but we're going to do it anyways. Because that's how rape works. And sometimes they. It like, breaks the tension. And sometimes they're like, we hate you.
- [12:33]
B
Yeah, we hate you. We're done. No.
- [12:34]
A
Yeah. No, no, no. A whole room of vu saying no.
- [12:39]
B
Oh, my God. Okay, so you have trigger warning. That's wild, though. So who put the trigger warning on it? Like, probably the venue. Yeah, the venue. Or the promoter.
- [12:49]
A
Yeah.
- [12:49]
B
Or like the.
- [12:50]
A
I'm really not sure I was product. It's fine. You know, you can give them a trigger warning.
- [12:55]
B
Like, so how would you.
- [12:56]
A
I'm gonna find them. I'm gonna say it to them personally.
- [13:00]
B
But do they do that when you go to an Anthony Jeselnick or a Jimmy Carr show? Right. Like, I feel like that. I don't know. I doubt it.
- [13:08]
A
Yeah, I think, like. Well, like, I don't know. I don't know if it's like the way, like, Jeselnik says his jokes are. They're very much like, not in reality.
- [13:18]
B
Right.
- [13:18]
A
And the way I say my jokes are, like, they're all kind of things that happen and then here's a joke about it or whatever.
- [13:25]
B
Right.
- [13:26]
A
So maybe that's why.
- [13:28]
B
Yeah.
- [13:29]
A
But it's not like it's. My show never gets sad, too. That was one thing. Like, I was like, at the fringe, I was like, I gotta make the show sad. People really don't like, when it's not sad there.
- [13:41]
B
Well, what's funny is. Is like your life story coming from Nepal. And I mean, at least the inference from one of your jokes is like, you grew up in, like, a war occurring.
- [13:54]
A
Yeah.
- [13:55]
B
And like, really traumatic things. Eventually you will tell that full Story on stage.
- [14:01]
A
Yeah, Right.
- [14:02]
B
Like, yeah, like, it's inevitable.
- [14:03]
A
Kind of talk about, like, you know, the war and stuff. But the. The thing about the war is like, I don't know, it's like when you grow up in something, you just feel like it's normal. It wasn't like people imagine like, you know, Syria. It wasn't. It was a civil war that was like, we're like a poor country. So we didn't really have bombs. All our bombs were homemade. It was very like a car can explode, but a building can't because they don't have the. They don't have everything it takes. Yeah. And so, like, I grew up in a pretty safe environment in terms of like, I was in a boarding school and so, like, you know, it was pretty safe. But then I was talking to one of my friends from boarding school came to my show in Edinburgh, and she lives in Manchester and now. And she was like, I'm gonna come to your show. I was like, this is so exc. She's like one of my best friends from growing up, and she watched the show and she's like, yeah, it's so weird. I, like, never think about the war. It feels like it almost never affected us. And I was like, yeah, it like, didn't affect us personally. And then she goes, although one time my dad was like driving home from India. He's like a businessman and he was in India and he was driving up and she was like. And the. And the Maoist did bomb his car.
- [15:10]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [15:11]
A
And he did get burned in it. And she was like, other than that, you never really think about. It never really affected us.
- [15:17]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [15:18]
A
I was like, yeah, other than that, it never really affected us. It was all like things like that where you feel like this is just a small story.
- [15:26]
B
But then other than the five to ten near death experiences we had, other.
- [15:30]
A
Than like people we heard of dying and like, whatever.
- [15:34]
B
Right.
- [15:34]
A
But then you kind of, you know, it's like anything you say to a child, they kind of bring that into being like, this is normal. And so it was like, pretty. And, you know, it's not like I saw like dead bodies and stuff. You just heard the news a lot. But it wasn't like happening all around me all the time. It was very.
- [15:50]
B
It was a low key war.
- [15:52]
A
It was a low key war.
- [15:54]
B
It was a B minus war.
- [15:55]
A
It was more like just stories of a war.
- [15:57]
B
And I was like, okay, this is. You write for Weekend Update. So I asked Jost and Che if they had questions for you.
- [16:05]
A
Did you actually, yeah.
- [16:08]
B
Jay wrote, I think she climbed Mount Everest or something. Ask her when she gonna get the GU to jump. That's his question.
- [16:18]
A
That's. Honestly, it's rich of him to say, when is she going to get the guts to jump? Rich coming from Che. Okay.
- [16:26]
B
Did you climb Mount Everest?
- [16:28]
A
I did not. But I have been mountaineering. Actually. I think Che said that because he's partly listening to things I'm saying from time to time. And he's like, I feel like a mountain came up somehow. I did Kilmajara this year. Oh. And then I went to Alaska for two weeks. I like, camped on this glacier for two weeks in the middle of nowhere. So far into this glacier.
- [16:52]
B
Wow.
- [16:53]
A
Storm every night.
- [16:54]
B
Adventurous.
- [16:55]
A
Yeah. Like, I love the mountains.
- [16:57]
B
That's really cool.
- [16:58]
A
I really love the mountains. I really like being just as far away from like a crowd and a people. Like, I love New York, but I love leaving New York, you know? And, yeah, we were in this glacier. It was actually like, insane. It was like. There's like a blizzard every night. So, like, the snow would accumulate to like 2ft in an hour. And so you have to wake up every hour through the night to go dig yourself out of the snow. Because, like, if the tent.
- [17:22]
B
Are you fucking kidding me?
- [17:23]
A
Because if the tent is like four foot tops, right? So like two foot, if it goes further, the tent's gonna collapse. What? So we would have to wake up and just dig out of the snow every night. Whiteout conditions, you can't see anything. And you have to like, stay inside the perimeter of your campgrounds because there's like, crevasses outside, right? So like, your campground's like, staked out. And you know that there's no big ice holes in the middle of the glacier. And so, like, in white out conditions, you don't want to walk outside. So then I was like, you're like, looking for the bathroom, which is at the end of the perimeter. And you're like, if I go any further, I could get outside the perimeter and never find it. Like, I'd have to wait till someone gets out of their tank.
- [18:05]
B
And why do you do this?
- [18:07]
A
I think. I think I like stress. Like, I think I like. It's honestly like a Zen mode.
- [18:14]
B
What does that date back to?
- [18:18]
A
Literally, sometimes I'll be like, I'm so complex. And then, like, everything is just so simple, A to B. It's like you can trace something.
- [18:25]
B
Yes.
- [18:26]
A
Like, very specific to being like, now I go on the mountains.
- [18:29]
B
Yes. You know, then the Joe's question is, you are from Nepal. Does that make you a Nepo baby?
- [18:36]
A
That Jo texted me that. He was like, do you ever say this on stage?
- [18:43]
B
I was like, oh, that's funny.
- [18:45]
A
I was like, yeah. Should I start my set with that and end my set with that? I'm going to do that. I'm opening for him next weekend. I'm going to do that on stage.
- [18:52]
B
I think it's worth trying.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah. I'm going to be like, Jos wrote this joke for me. Does that make me angry?
- [18:57]
B
It's a little corny. Do you ever. The more. The. Who's more challenging to work with, Che or Jost?
- [19:05]
A
Who's more challenging to work with, Che or Jost? I think they both bring their own challenges. No, they're both pretty chill. Like, in terms of what SNL is. Yeah, I think I have the chillest job. Like, it's just these two guys who are both comics who are, like, easy to deal with. The only things that I feel like are kind of difficult sometimes is like, you're kind of like, where are they?
- [19:31]
B
Where are they?
- [19:33]
A
Because they're running around so much. They're working on all these other things and you're like, update. But then other than that, they're very. I have such a chill job. I submit jokes anonymously.
- [19:45]
B
What do you mean anonymously?
- [19:46]
A
Like, you don't write your name on your joke at Update.
- [19:48]
B
Really?
- [19:48]
A
Yeah, it's awesome.
- [19:49]
B
Oh, so it's just a compiled sheet?
- [19:51]
A
Yes. So then when they see it, it's just a compiled sheet. So you never feel like you're boss is mad at you. You know, that's interesting.
- [19:59]
B
What does your day look like? So you. You have to show up at work, right?
- [20:02]
A
Yes, we show up every day. We submit, like, by the. So on Monday, you show up and then like Tuesday, by 12, you have to submit like 20 to 30 kind of jokes.
- [20:13]
B
Wow.
- [20:14]
A
Which, you know, I mean, not all of them are winners. Like, a lot of them, you're kind of like, trying to fill the page.
- [20:18]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [20:20]
A
And then every day you do that till Friday. On Friday, we submit by 7pm and so Friday is, like, really stressful. And then after that, there's just this, like, huge chill release of, like, reading magazines and, like, watching TV until we pick the jokes with Jost and Che. And then Saturday, we just kind of like, cull the herd of, like, how many jokes we have. And then. And then you kind of write right before the show, like, if there's like a Saturday news. You write on Saturday. And then you kind of, like, keep working till the. You know, I mean, like, you keep working up until it's airtime, basically, and then it's over. And then.
- [21:00]
B
Do you like it? You like the job?
- [21:02]
A
I love my job. I think, like, update. Low key. Like, the best way to be an snl.
- [21:09]
B
It seems like it.
- [21:10]
A
It's such a. Like. And everyone is so nice. It's like, our team is so great. It's like, Pete, Megan, Josh. And it used to be like Rosebud last year. It was just like, it's such a fun environment. And they're all so smart and they're so funny. So, like, most of the day, you're writing jokes alone. You never really like talking about what you're going to write, but all day you're just reading the news, talking about shit with, like, the smartest people.
- [21:35]
B
Yeah.
- [21:36]
A
And coming up with, like, ideas about the news and, like, about the. And then you're just kind of, like, shooting the shit. And then, you know, that's your whole day. It's like, most of the day is chatting.
- [21:48]
B
That's so cool.
- [21:49]
A
And then suddenly a joke comes to you, and then you write it, and then. And then you go back to kind.
- [21:53]
B
Of chatting the segment where Che and Jost roast each other by giving each other their jokes.
- [21:59]
A
Yeah.
- [22:00]
B
Or that's the conceit of it. It's probably one of the funniest things ever on Saturday Live.
- [22:04]
A
It's so funny.
- [22:05]
B
It's insane.
- [22:06]
A
That used to, like. Before I started, that used to be like, that blow. Like, it blew my mind. When I first saw it, I was like, that's incredible that you get to do that on tv. And then when you're sort of, like, writing for it, you're kind of like, what is the worst thought I could possibly have? Like, I remember the first year I wrote, like, really tame ones. Cause I was like, I'm not gonna let my head writer know that I thought this. Like, that's crazy. And then you're kind of like, okay, you have to stop. Like, you have to really kind of think of, like, the worst of the worst thing, you know? And then you go from there. It's crazy that that's on tv.
- [22:47]
B
Is there anything that's. Well, because I think it's able to be on tv. Because it's a fundamental deconstruction of why you can't say it.
- [22:58]
A
Yes.
- [22:59]
B
So it's like, on the nose. Here's why you can't say this. And we're Gonna say it.
- [23:03]
A
And, like, it plays with, like, the audience's expectations from Jost and the audience's expectations from Che. And it's kind of like, oh, this is. If this is what you think I am. And then you're saying it, you know, it's like. And that's not who those people are. But it feels kind of like an affirmation of what the audience might be thinking about these people. Right.
- [23:27]
B
The worst possible thing you could think about, I'm sure.
- [23:29]
A
Or like, the worst. Like, Jost is not a racist, but a little part of the audience kind of is like, is he a racist? And then he says the most racist thing, and it's like an affirmation to them of like. That's so funny because he's clearly. It's like, plays with, like, a lot.
- [23:45]
B
Of, like, he's playing into. What is the worst thing I could think about this person.
- [23:50]
A
Yeah.
- [23:50]
B
This kind of, like, country club punchable face guy.
- [23:54]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then he just plays into it. It's.
- [23:58]
B
Which is great, by the way. His book is great, by the way.
- [24:00]
A
His book is really.
- [24:01]
B
Yeah. Punchable face is really, really good.
- [24:03]
A
I told my sister, my sister was looking for a book to listen to on audiobook, and I have Joe's book on our Audible. And I was like, you should listen to Jo's memoir. It's like a couple of books in my Audible. And she goes, what's it called? The Devil in the White City. Because that was the other book I had in Audible. I was like, that is what they call him in the Hamptons.
- [24:39]
B
Support for Working it Out comes from hexclad. Hexclad is a new sponsor. I'm thrilled. They sent me a whole bunch of their patented hybrid cookware. And it is such an upgrade from what I had in my apartment. I love it. They're heavy duty, toxin free, and easy to clean. Here's the thing about cookware and knives. It's very tempting to get something cheap. I've certainly done that. But the cheap stuff, you don't know what it's made of. It's going to rust, it's going to chip. You're going to end up buying more of it, more junk. I say go with the good stuff. Don't cycle through a bunch of cheap things. Buy one good set of pots and pans. Use them forever. It's better for you, better for the environment. Plus, every hexclad product is backed by a lifetime warranty. Take pride, not just in your perfectly grilled steak, but in the exceptional tools you use to create it. For a limited time, get 10% off Hexclad with our exclusive link hexclad.com Burbigs support the show and cook with gear as serious as your passion@hexclashad.com Burbigs let Hexclad know we sent you and experience the ultimate upgrade in your kitchen with hexclad's superior performance. Support comes from Mint Mobile. You know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. With Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for $15 a month. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling. Literally. And financially, do you say data or data? Well, at my apartment we say data. We're a data house. I make no apologies for it. Anyway, this year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com burbigs that's mintmobile.com burbigs upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to 15 bucks a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. I was breaking down one of your jokes in terms. Speaking of setup, punch joke is I'm in therapy. Anyone in therapy? It's been great. Going to therapy is great. I'm, I'm doing justice to your joke. It was a great version of your joke. I'm Asian and my parents asked me why I go to therapy and I was like, do you remember when I was a kid and you guys raised me? No, you were there. I mean, not emotionally. And it's like such a great joke because it's like I always try to break apart on this show, like what jokes are. And it's like, it's like set up something that's true and then punchline something that is somewhat true.
- [27:53]
A
Yeah.
- [27:54]
B
Or like a left turn that has some truth and some fiction. I would almost describe it as. But like that's to me, that's like a really perfect, like economical joke. Which is. Remember when I was a kid and you raised me? No, you were there. I mean not emotionally. It's just like, so brief. How did you teach yourself set up and punchline? Like, as a structure?
- [28:17]
A
I think, like, because I was so scared of being on stage when I was like, new to comedy. Like, I was like, is this in.
- [28:24]
B
Georgia when you started out?
- [28:26]
A
No, I. I did my first. Yeah. Tennessee.
- [28:28]
B
Tennessee.
- [28:28]
A
Okay. So I was like, so scared that the economy of words comes from being like, when can I get to the punchline? You know? So it's like you might be writing things in between that you could, like, spread out. Like, even now, when I do this joke, I don't say I'm Asian because I'm like, that's actually like, irrelevant to this joke.
- [28:47]
B
Yeah.
- [28:49]
A
So like, you just start editing so quickly because you just want to get to the punchline. Cause that's when it feels safe on stage. Right?
- [28:56]
B
Totally.
- [28:57]
A
And so before that, you're just like, the talking part feels so panicky to me.
- [29:03]
B
Yes.
- [29:03]
A
And like now I'm getting better at being that way. But that programming is already in me to be like, this doesn't need to be here. We just need to get to the punchline in, like the quickest way.
- [29:14]
B
I always, like, whenever people do. We do Q&As on the show and people ask about, like, what can you do if you're starting out? I always say, like, get on stage, get on stage, get on any way you can.
- [29:25]
A
Yeah.
- [29:26]
B
Like, I remember I was in college, I hosted an acapella festival and this like, I would host anything.
- [29:31]
A
Yes.
- [29:31]
B
To get stage. Because the exact thing you're saying, once you get on stage, essentially, like, what's this much text becomes this small. You're immediately like, self edit, self edit, self edit, self edit. I gotta get to the punchline. And it kind of amazing. Cause the joke get better.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah. Because like, when you're writing, you're kind of like, ooh, this is a good thought. You know? And it's like, no one cares about your thought. They're like, here for a punchline. So then you're on your own stage. You just come cut it, you know?
- [30:01]
B
That is so true.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah.
- [30:04]
B
No one cares about your thoughts.
- [30:05]
A
No one wants to hear this. Like, they. That's exactly right.
- [30:08]
B
Tom Papa said that to me. Once he goes, your brain edits out what's not as good.
- [30:14]
A
Yes.
- [30:14]
B
It's like you're on stage and you find yourself forgetting a section of the joke. It's probably not great.
- [30:22]
A
Yes. And like, when you're writing, you're kind of like in your ego, sort of. You're like, ooh, you know this turn of phrase and it's like, that's not gonna get a laugh.
- [30:32]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:32]
A
The crowd doesn't isn't gonna like that. And you know that on stage. You know that because if the last thing you said, it gets a certain reaction and you're like, oh, so this next thing won't work. And it's crazy how fast your brain works when you're on stage. It's just going.
- [30:45]
B
That is the difference. It is a big difference between people who are stand up comedians as a background into like movies and TV versus people who are like playwrights into movies and tv. Because like, playwrights are like, no, no, it's exactly these words. It's like, well, maybe.
- [31:01]
A
Yeah, yeah. And like, you learn not to be too precious as a stand up because you're like, also you, you throw away jokes that are working because they're just not working as well as some of the other stuff. You know, it's like you become not precious about jokes. That's why, like, I think, like, like working at Update, I realized, like, you write so many jokes that when I was like, younger and like, coming up, you would kind of be like, someone stole this joke from someone. And now you're like, then just write a new one. Just. It's like there's endless jokes in the world. You can just write a new one or not or don't.
- [31:37]
B
You know, I found there's so much stealing lately. Like, I've noticed and it's like it washes over me.
- [31:43]
A
Yeah.
- [31:43]
B
Like, I see someone do my joke and I'm like, okay, sure, yeah.
- [31:46]
A
You're like, I'm gonna keep doing it if I still like it, but whatever. Like, you know, also the way you say it is always going to be different than the way they say it. Like, the way you say it to your crowd. They like it for a different reason.
- [32:00]
B
Than, you know, wait till someone steals your Nepalese history jokes.
- [32:06]
A
Collins. Nepalese Nepo baby joke.
- [32:09]
B
Well, that's what. That's. You know, one of my first people who taught me anything about comedy told me, like, if you write jokes about your own life, people can't steal it. And like, that's, that's why I feel like you're going to end up writing something super autobiographical. Wait, is the thing that you did in Edinburgh, is it autobiographical?
- [32:28]
A
Yeah, it's pretty much like, I feel like anything I do is sort of autobiographical in the way that I can trace it to the exact event that led to this being a joke or whatever. But yeah, in Edinburgh, I was like, I kind of talked about, like, you know, like, going to therapy, you know, and. And like, I say, like, my. My therapist really wants me to, like, unpack everything now. And it's like I. I just packed it. Why? Why would I unpack it? Like, I just got the suitcase to close. But then it's like, then I talk about, like, you know, civil war, growing up, whatever, and then. And then now being in like, America, then there's like a section on dating or whatever, and then you bring it back. I think, like, the main thing I learned while I was at Edinburgh is like, I've really been trying to make this work for a long time, but there's just nowhere in New York, especially where you can kind of try something like this out in a 15 minute set, where it's like, I really do think, like, people look at tragedy and they're like, this is so sad. But then if you look at the cadence and, like, format of a tragedy, it's the same as a joke. Right? Like, there's like a setup tension and then there's this really unexpected event.
- [33:35]
B
Yeah. And.
- [33:36]
A
And that is the cadence of a joke. And so, like, in Edinburgh, I was trying out this thing where it's like, when you look at like, Oedipus Rex, you know, it's like a really funny story if you just change like the theme song, right? He gets this oracle, and then the oracle's like, you're going to kill your dad and fuck your mom. And he's like, oh, my God, I really don't want to do that. I'm just going to, like, go out and do other stuff. And then that whole quest ends with him killing his dad and fucking his mom. And that's so funny.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah. Great payoff.
- [34:05]
A
And, you know, it's funny because that's every episode of that's so Raven. That's what happens. Like, Raven, like, sees the future. She's like, I'm gonna avoid this future. And then she goes on a quest and, like, fucks her mom. You know, whatever.
- [34:21]
B
That's so funny.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
I feel like that's been like a guiding principle in my comedy and in my life, which is like, there always will be pain.
- [34:29]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:30]
B
Pain is inevitable.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah.
- [34:32]
B
It's just a matter of.
- [34:32]
A
It's kind of funny every time.
- [34:34]
B
Totally.
- [34:35]
A
There was something, like, really funny about a shocking. Like a joke is kind of like a shock in a way. You know, it's like, I didn't see that coming.
- [34:44]
B
Yeah.
- [34:45]
A
You know, and that's like what? A car accident? That's like, what? Like anything is. Like, you didn't see it coming, and that's why it's so sad to you.
- [34:51]
B
But that's like, my joke. I think you saw we were watching each other's sets the other night at the club. It was like. But I have this joke where I'm like, the other. You know, a few weeks ago, my wife said to me, like, sometimes I feel like you're not happy. And I was like, yeah, right.
- [35:03]
A
Like, I was never.
- [35:04]
B
I was never happy when we met, I wasn't happy. You know, I thought that's what you were into. I thought, like, I'm unhappy, but I'm hilarious about it. Yeah, but it's like, precisely that.
- [35:14]
A
Yes.
- [35:14]
B
Is like, is. Is. I think that's. I. I mean, look, it's like, maybe I'm overstating it, but it's like, I think that's kind of the comedian's job. It's like, take something that's painful, which. Everything is painful.
- [35:28]
A
Yeah, everything's painful. Everyone's life is painful. It's just a sad. But it's like, you know, that's why I also get really upset when, like, people are like. And not to go back to rape. That's why I'm really, like, upset when people are like, don't talk about this. It's like. Like, who are you to be like, whatever happens in your life, I don't want to hear about it because it brings up something. It's like, I read this thing on Reddit a long time ago. I read a lot of, like, am I the asshole? Things, you know, on Reddit, and one of it was like, this girl has a scar on her face, and she just started a new school, and this other girl who has a scar on her face has been hiding it.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah.
- [36:07]
A
And she's like, I really don't like that you have a scar on your face, because it reminds me that I have a scar, so if you could hide it. And I was like, well, this is like a ridiculous scenario probably made up on Reddit. But also I was like, that is what all of this is, right? Like, you're like, don't talk about rape because it reminds me of something. And it's like, well, it reminds me of something too. And that's why I'm talking about it. Okay? Like, I didn't just. It's like, no one would say that. Everyone's, like, upset if you talk about something really dark because they think because you are making a joke. About it, but they think you're laughing at it. And it's like, well, this is like a form of self expression that like, if I'd made it into a painting, you would suddenly be like, look at this beautiful piece of art someone made from trauma.
- [36:51]
B
You'd be like, oh, it's incredible, right?
- [36:53]
A
Like, trauma into art is like really admirable if it's a specific kind of art you like. But if you do a joke about it, it's suddenly like, well, you're making light of it and it's like, yeah, but that is how I express things, you know, that's like my writing is just that.
- [37:10]
B
So I just think. Yeah, it's like the devaluation of stand up comedy.
- [37:14]
A
Yeah.
- [37:14]
B
As. As a non art form. Yeah, that's part of it.
- [37:17]
A
On the record, I do think it should be devalued.
- [37:22]
B
I respect that.
- [37:23]
A
Takes. Yes, I, I get it. But also, I'm like, not when I'm on stage, like later.
- [37:28]
B
Not for me.
- [37:29]
A
Yeah, not for me.
- [37:30]
B
Not for me. But for others.
- [37:31]
A
But in general. In general, yes. But yeah.
- [37:33]
B
God, I mean, you. This is like the working it out drinking game and I'm forcing people to drink now. But if you did a solo show, it would be the. It would be one of the greatest solo shows of all time. I'm sorry. Because you have great stories. You have great stories and you're a great storyteller. And it's like, what are you doing?
- [37:55]
A
I know. I don't know. I get so scared to tell a story on stage. I like, I really feel like I gotta get to the thing. Yeah. I gotta get.
- [38:02]
B
It's gonna make people laugh and relax.
- [38:05]
A
Which I do think with Edinburgh, I am a little bit more like, okay, I could tell a story, you know?
- [38:10]
B
So you did tell stories in Edinburgh and what was the show called again?
- [38:13]
A
Detachment style. Detachment style, yeah. Which is like, just kind of about, like how, you know, like, whatever happens and I don't have a lot of feelings about these things. I'm just kind of like, I'm doing fine, you know? Yeah. I've put myself in, like, stressful situations a lot. That's why I think this job is so great for me. Like, I think SNL is such a great job for me. I love, like, a little bit of stress in my life.
- [38:34]
B
Right. You like it to be sometimes toxic.
- [38:38]
A
Yes, I love a little. It's like, I always think, like, if my parents had given me all the approval I needed in my life, I would not thrive at snl. Like, I Would not be having a good time. But I think, like, a. Like, coming from, like, you know, earn your place is. I'm kind of like, oh, okay.
- [38:55]
B
I feel the same way.
- [38:57]
A
Yeah, it's not a.
- [39:00]
B
It's not a popular current take, but. But I do feel like that's. That's sort of. That's how I was raised. And, yeah, it's worked out in some ways.
- [39:08]
A
I know. And it's like, if it didn't work out, then, yeah, I would, like, try to fix it a lot more. But, like, you know, it's kind of like I. I like who I am.
- [39:15]
B
Yeah.
- [39:15]
A
You know, like, hot take. No one likes who they are anymore, but, like, I like who I am. And, like, I feel like a little bit of that is like, my dad never said, I'm proud of you, you know, so it's like, sure, that's good.
- [39:27]
B
Is your dad still with us? Does he now?
- [39:30]
A
Oh, no.
- [39:32]
B
Does he like your jokes?
- [39:35]
A
My parents don't really watch my comedy. My parents.
- [39:38]
B
Oh, my God. This is what you and I have completely in common. Yeah, same. Like, 100% the same.
- [39:44]
A
They don't.
- [39:45]
B
Do not watch my comedy.
- [39:46]
A
I think they're, like, you know, like, abstractly proud of me. They're proud that I'm doing what I want to do and I've made a living out of it, and that's, like, cool to them. But. Yeah, no, my parents are. My parents are. They're like, you know, I love them. They're. They've been really sweet to me. Whatever. But at the end of my admiration, I'd be like, you know, a lot of people will, like. Because I'm not talking shit about my dad. I just. I think he is who he is, and, like, we're just. I love him, but, you know, I think we're just kind of like, you know, different people. Yeah, but also very similar. I think that's also the problem. But at the end of my show, I would be like, you know, sometimes people will hear me make jokes about my dad, and they'll be like, you know, aren't you worried that, like, your dad will be offended if he sees this? And I'm like, if you heard anything I said about my dad, like, if you were really listening, you would know that my dad would never watch me do comedy. That's insane. He didn't know. My parents didn't know. The only time they've watched snl, even after I started was live.
- [40:46]
B
Yeah.
- [40:47]
A
In the studio.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah.
- [40:49]
A
They never thought, I'm just gonna look this up, like, see where my daughter's working?
- [40:52]
B
So funny. My. I had one recently where I was talking to my mom. She goes, she. She watched this joke that I did of my dad. God, what is my. The joke in my last special is, my dad was a doctor, and then in his free time, he got his law degree. That's how much he didn't want to be a dad. And my mom was like, just so you know, like, the other dads weren't around also. And then she lists off my friends dads, like, Mr. Blah, blah, blah. He wasn't around either, and he'd be gone for weeks.
- [41:29]
A
Yeah, I know. It doesn't make funny.
- [41:31]
B
And then she goes, my parents were around less than your parents. I go, I know, I know. In the 40s, parents weren't around a lot.
- [41:39]
A
Like, that's such a parent response. Like. Like, I wonder if that's just something that happens to your brain when your kid is talking back to. Like, it's immediately like. Like dispersing blame.
- [41:52]
B
Yes.
- [41:53]
A
It's like, yeah, I'm not a good parent, but no one else is. It's like, how does that help me, though?
- [41:58]
B
No one's a good parent. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna, like, continually bring this up off air, but, like, you really have to do a solo show. Like, you have to.
- [42:09]
A
I think I need to get more in touch with what all of this means to me.
- [42:14]
B
Okay. You know what the whole. Your whole life means to you.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah. Like, what do you make of. Like, what do you make of this? You know?
- [42:23]
B
Right.
- [42:23]
A
Like, a little bit of the solo show is like, what do you make of these events?
- [42:27]
B
Right.
- [42:27]
A
Like, jokes are like, event joke, but a solo show is like. And what of that? You know? Like.
- [42:34]
B
No, I think it's more. I. I think it's more. What are these? It's asking a question. There's a dramatic question, but I don't think the dramatic question has to be answered. I think the dramatic question can take you to another question or can take you to another thought that isn't the answer and doesn't claim to be. Like, if you see a show and it claims to be kind of the truth, it's like, well, that's not a great show.
- [43:00]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [43:01]
B
I don't know.
- [43:01]
A
I'll think of a solo show.
- [43:03]
B
I. Look, I'm just saying, like, your stories are amazing and your jokes are amazing, and it's very rare that those two things exist.
- [43:10]
A
Thank you.
- [43:10]
B
That's why, like, I'm like, I feel obliged to be like, No, I have to say, I have to insist that you'd make a solo show.
- [43:19]
A
I do think, like the biggest thing I'm scared of, of being a comic is like, I was really worried that I would stop living like an interesting life. I would just become a comedian or. Which is an interesting life in its own way. But it's not the kind of like danger and interest and like intrigue that I like and like is fun to me. And I think that's why I started climbing mountains, is cause I'm afraid that I will like lean into this. Like all my life is doing standup.
- [43:45]
B
You know, that makes sense.
- [43:46]
A
You gotta go do something else. You need a story. Like you need the stories to keep you going, you know.
- [44:05]
B
Support for working it out comes from quints. Love quints. I gotta say, didn't know about quints before they became a sponsor on the podcast. Now one of my favorite places to shop. And by the way, fall's almost here. I'm heading to Vancouver this fall with John Mulaney, Fred Armorson, Nick Kroll. I'm going to need a sweater. Luckily, Quince has super soft 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just $60. I'm going to wear mine. What makes Quince different, you ask? They partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen. So you get top tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quints. Go to quint.com birbigs B I R B I G S for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com brbigs working it out is brought to you by Helix. Gotta love Helix, one of our original sponsors. I've had my Helix mattress for five years and counting. Still as comfortable as the very first time I slept on it. As you know, I obsess about sleep. I think about it a lot. I've got a sleepwalking disorder, although in pretty good shape these days. And I get a great night's sleep on the Helix mattress. It's always exactly the right temperature. Here's a few things I love about my Helix mattress. It shows up in a box. I've talked about this before. Getting a mattress into your house or your apartment is a huge pain. It is a very heavy item. In this case, it shows up in a box, you open the box, boom, you got A mattress. Helix mattresses are affordable, but if that's not in the cards for you right now, they also have mattress toppers. With Helix mattress toppers, you can add luxury, comfort or a personalized feel to any mattress. Here's what I think you should do. Go to helixsleep.combrbigs for 25% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com burbigs for 25% off site Wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you helixsleep.com burbigs support for working it out comes from Rula. I've talked a lot about therapy on this show before. Big advocate of it. I've been in therapy for over 20 years. Rula is an affordable online therapy platform. Finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's a whole. That's a whole tricky thing. And it's where most online therapy platforms fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, which means you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription. Rula does things differently. With Rula, you can find the right therapist for you. Rula partners with a network of over 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find your personalized solution and the right therapist for you based on your needs, preferences and state requirements. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.combrbigs to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our podcast and let them know we sent you. That's r u l a.combrbigs you deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. This is the slow round. What are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you?
- [47:38]
A
Okay. I think people's favorite thing, which I've noticed is like, friends will call me with sad news sometimes and I think they, they want to laugh. And so I think that's maybe their favorite thing is they can, like, rely on me.
- [47:54]
B
That's sweet.
- [47:55]
A
Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, but then you're kind of like, how much am I supposed to make you? You know, how much material do I have? Yeah, how much material do I have on this? God, cancer? And then I think people's least favorite thing about me is that I can be really, like, competitive and like, sort of like confrontational. Like, I don't think I'm like, very sort of afraid of confrontation or competition. And that makes it really hard to play, like, a board game with me sometimes.
- [48:33]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [48:34]
A
Like, on the right here, I was running late, and I do this thing where I don't want to tell the Uber driver that I'm running late because I don't want to be like, step on it. You know? But I need him to know that he needs to step on it. So I'll call someone, and on the phone I will say, this is ridiculous. I'm running so, so late. I cannot believe this. Like, I think I'm going to lose my job. And then I get really emotional on the phone.
- [49:01]
B
What. What do you think that's connected to your. To your childhood?
- [49:04]
A
Oh, like, totally. I mean, it's. My parents wouldn't let me do a lot of, like, things that I wanted. So, like, the best way to get what you want out of them is to, like, present the story that they are sympathetic to without being like, you have, like, everything can't be a fight.
- [49:22]
B
Right.
- [49:22]
A
Some things have to be like, here's a story you might like.
- [49:26]
B
Yeah.
- [49:26]
A
You know.
- [49:26]
B
Yes.
- [49:27]
A
And then there's sympathy.
- [49:29]
B
Wow. Propaganda.
- [49:30]
A
Propaganda.
- [49:31]
B
Yeah.
- [49:31]
A
Really? Yeah.
- [49:32]
B
You're. You're. You're spreading a story.
- [49:35]
A
Yeah. You're using pathos.
- [49:37]
B
Happens. I'm thinking about this other thing.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah. And then they're like, oh, that could be a good. You know.
- [49:42]
B
Yeah.
- [49:42]
A
You let them think they came to it on their own. You let them think they're being a good guy. The Uber driver now thinks he's being a good guy by taking me somewhere faster. Right. Because he just saw a girl in distress and now he's helping. He's a hero. Versus, if I was like, step on it. He'd be like this bitch, you know?
- [49:58]
B
Right. Who are you jealous of?
- [50:01]
A
Who am I jealous of? I'm really jealous of people who are very adjusted. Like, I have really close dear friends who are very adjusted people. And, like, it makes me jealous of, like, even someone who doesn't want more. It really makes me jealous to be like, I can't believe you don't have, like, a void that you're trying to fill all the time. Yeah. There's no hole in you. You're very satisfied with your life. And, like, some people will, like, look down on, like, someone with. With a suburban life and, like, a backyard and are happy with what they are. I can't. I can't want anything more than wanting that, you know? Like, I don't want that, but if I wanted that, that Would be. The best thing in my life is, like, if I could just.
- [50:46]
B
Right.
- [50:47]
A
Stop chasing.
- [50:48]
B
Some people have no hole.
- [50:50]
A
Some people have no hole.
- [50:51]
B
That's interesting. I didn't even. I've never even really considered that as an idea.
- [50:55]
A
You know, Some people's parents just love them just. Right. Just the right way, and they have no filling. Filling. Filling, you know?
- [51:04]
B
That's interesting.
- [51:06]
A
It's interesting.
- [51:07]
B
No, that makes. No, that makes sense, though.
- [51:09]
A
Yeah.
- [51:09]
B
No, I could see being jealous of that.
- [51:12]
A
Yeah.
- [51:13]
B
I don't think I'm jealous of it because I don't think that it maybe exists.
- [51:17]
A
I feel like I see it. Like, I, like, see it in people. And I'm like, you're. You're like, just, you know, you're just balanced out. Yeah. And like. And, like, they do want things, right? Like, they want, like, a happy, healthy child. They want, like, a family. And it's like, those are things. If you work on it, you can really. Those are achievable things. You're not looking for, like, an external.
- [51:37]
B
Right.
- [51:38]
A
Validation. You just want to be good. And if you want to be good, you can be good.
- [51:43]
B
What's something you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now?
- [51:49]
A
Well, I think 10 years ago, I was very sure of myself. Like, I was very like, this is what I want, and this is what I like. And this is. And now I don't know any. Like, I'll go shopping, and I just feel so lost. I'm like, who am I? Like, every time I'm shopping, I'm like, you see a shirt, you're like, is this who I am? Like, in my core, is this top gonna describe who I am? You know? And, like, it's like paralysis. Then I have to call someone. I have to call my sister and be like, do you think this top feels like me?
- [52:26]
B
Yeah.
- [52:27]
A
And then now I'm looking at someone else to tell me who I am so that I can finally feel like. Well, she confirmed it, you know?
- [52:33]
B
Yes.
- [52:34]
A
But 10 years ago, I, like, feel like I knew.
- [52:37]
B
Yeah. I relate to that so much.
- [52:38]
A
Yeah.
- [52:40]
B
Less I. Less. I'm sure of that. I always find it confounding.
- [52:45]
A
Maybe that's what dementia is. Maybe it's just.
- [52:48]
B
I find that when people are confident.
- [52:51]
A
Yeah.
- [52:51]
B
I'm like, huh?
- [52:52]
A
Yeah.
- [52:53]
B
What's that like?
- [52:54]
A
Well, I think when people are that confident, I'm like, you're dumb.
- [52:57]
B
Right.
- [52:57]
A
You must be dumb, because there is no way.
- [52:59]
B
There's a little critical voice in my head, too.
- [53:01]
A
Yeah.
- [53:02]
B
Yeah.
- [53:03]
A
Jealousy. It's me. Being jealous and saying, you're dumb.
- [53:06]
B
What's the time you were caught in a lie?
- [53:08]
A
Oh, my God. I mean, this is one of those, like, early, really embarrassing cringy things. I, like, I. I went to three different high schools, so I went. Moved a lot. And my last year in high school, I was like. It was my senior year, and I was, like, really trying to make friends, you know, I was. I was joining every. Like, I was. I joined a fantasy football team. I'd, like, never watched football.
- [53:27]
B
Yeah.
- [53:28]
A
I watched Human Centipede 2 because people were watching it, and I was like, well, I'm going to make friends with them. So, like, yeah, yeah. This guy was wearing this shirt from this band, A Perfect Circle, a band I had never really listened to, but was vaguely aware was like, maybe cool.
- [53:43]
B
Yeah.
- [53:43]
A
And I was like, oh, I love that shirt. Love that band.
- [53:47]
B
Yeah.
- [53:48]
A
And then he did that thing where he was like, you know, oh, what album are you listening to right now?
- [53:55]
B
Yeah.
- [53:56]
A
Could not name a single album, of course.
- [53:58]
B
Yeah.
- [53:58]
A
Couldn't name a song. Didn't they had, like, some Beatles covers, I think I was like, I really like when they cover the Beatles. And I was like. And that's like one of those where you've been caught in a lie a lot, but it's like one of those things that really sticks with you where.
- [54:13]
B
You'Re like, fuck, yeah. And I relate to it, too. I went to three high schools. You did different high school for 8th, 9th, and 10th. Yeah.
- [54:22]
A
Yeah. That really. I think it makes you kind of like. Well, it makes you kind of like a chameleon where you're like, I. I know how to, like, get into a group or whatever. But it also makes you kind of like a people pleaser where you're like, totally. How am I gonna make friends here? You know, being funny helps the.
- [54:38]
B
All right, so I. This is the working out section. Some of these you saw the other night, I think, because you. These are like the new jokes I'm working on. The one of them is, I was sexting with my wife, and she wrote the. The ants in the kitchen have found the English muffins. And I wrote back, man, I want to fuck you. She wrote, seriously, we need an exterminator. And I wrote, seriously, take your pants off. And then she blocked my number. And now all of my messages go to green, which is the horniest color. Sexting with my wife. That's like my new joke that actually works.
- [55:16]
A
Yeah.
- [55:16]
B
That's a feeling where you're like, oh, I have a Joke. A new joke that works.
- [55:20]
A
Yeah. And you're, like, excited for it to come up.
- [55:23]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So I. Yeah, that's.
- [55:24]
A
It's really funny. I need. We need an exterminator. It's really funny because you can be like, I don't think we need a third.
- [55:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. Just be you and me. Totally. Yeah. That one's sort of straightforward, and I think maybe we talked about this one the other night, which is, being single is such a painful thing because you're just, like, roving the planet saying, like, does anyone want to be naked at the same time? And then the most people say, and you gotta be like, me neither. And some people say, yes. And then you say, no. And they're like, I thought you were desperate. And you're like, right. But not, you know, like. But not what?
- [55:54]
A
Yeah.
- [55:55]
B
And then. And then I. And I always point this out. I go, being single in New York, I feel like it's miserable because all single women think they're in Sex in the City and all single men think they're in Mad Men, and we're all in Game of Thrones.
- [56:09]
A
That's really funny.
- [56:10]
B
Which is fun.
- [56:11]
A
Do you say that on stage the other day?
- [56:12]
B
Oh, did I not do that one? Yeah. So that. That's like my. Yeah, I'm trying. It's funny. I found this connective tissue the other night, like, the mo. I realized it the moment I came off stage and I saw you, which is like. Which is like, I had those jokes about being single and then being married, and I had this thing where I was like, I can't seem to make the single jokes work.
- [56:35]
A
Right.
- [56:36]
B
I think, because people are like, what are you talking about? You've been married for 17 years. But what I realized was I could tell the joke about that I said earlier. Sometimes I feel like you're not happy. And I'm like, right? And then say, like, when I was single, I was actually more miserable than that. And then I do those jokes about being single, and I find that the audience, like, if you walk them there, they're open to going anywhere.
- [57:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like when you say, like, when you met me, I wasn't happy. Like, it's like, I was less happy than I am now.
- [57:10]
B
Right? Yeah. Do you have jokes like that where you're like. Where they don't work in a certain context, but then when you pair them with other jokes, they make sense?
- [57:19]
A
Yes, I think, like. Like, a lot of times when I have a joke that's not working, I'M like, I can't let this go. I'm just going to put it aside and there will be something that's going to come up later that will make it make sense, you know, because it's, like, too standalone right now.
- [57:35]
B
Yeah.
- [57:36]
A
Like, like, like I have this joke that I added to my therapy joke, which I used to try to do, which is just like, you know, isn't your dad just like your mom's boyfriend? You know, because it's like, who? Like, and then that doesn't make sense on its own if you don't know that there is kind of like a separation between us, you know?
- [57:59]
B
Right. Because that alone between you and your dad.
- [58:00]
A
Yeah, between me and my dad. And so then it makes sense to be like, I only hang out with my dad because we have a mutual friend in common. My mom.
- [58:09]
B
Right.
- [58:10]
A
Cause isn't that just like her boyfriend?
- [58:12]
B
Right.
- [58:13]
A
And then people can imagine being at brunch with your friend's boyfriend.
- [58:17]
B
Right.
- [58:17]
A
And then when they go to the bathroom, you're like, what the fuck am I supposed to talk to you about? Like, we have nothing in common, you know? And then I think that's the only way it works.
- [58:27]
B
Yeah. That's why some people ask me about the cards on the wall that have the jokes on them. And I'm always like, the reason why I have them visually is that it's only in clusters that jokes even work.
- [58:39]
A
Yeah.
- [58:39]
B
So you have to just move them around and be like, oh, this dishwasher joke could go with this other chores joke. Because sometimes what happens is I'll release a special and I'll cut out a bunch of jokes. But then those jokes that are discarded, they're good, but they're not good in isolation.
- [58:54]
A
Yeah. Even like, I. I had jokes from, like, when I was dating. And even now, like, you'll have, like, new jokes, like, about what it was like to be dating. Right. And if I do jokes about my boyfriend, which is kind of like shitting on him a lot, but it's also. It makes him the sympathetic character. Like, I think in every joke, I'm kind of like the bitch. And he's like, they can tell that I'm being toxic to him. If I do those single jokes after, they're kind of like, we don't even like that you're talking about someone. Like.
- [59:24]
B
Right.
- [59:25]
A
I have to do that before I talk about him. Because they like him so much after those jokes that they don't want to hear me.
- [59:32]
B
They're in his corner.
- [59:33]
A
Yeah. They don't want to hear me having sex with someone else. Like, they want to. So I have to, like, bring it up before and then go into being like, well, now I don't date. You know.
- [59:42]
B
Do you ever have a thing with your boyfriend because he's a standup comic also, like, where you fight over a story?
- [59:50]
A
Yeah, well, we fight not fight over a story. It will be kind of like you'll be riffing or whatever. And then one of you gets to try it on stage.
- [60:00]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:00]
A
And then if it doesn't work, then the other one gets to try it on stage.
- [60:03]
B
That's funny.
- [60:03]
A
You know?
- [60:04]
B
Have you had. Do you have a specific of that?
- [60:06]
A
Yeah, he was trying to. We have this thing where we're like. About choking. Right. And so he. He was like, my girlfriend likes to be choked in bed. And he's like, you know, because she had kind of a tough childhood. And it doesn't work when he says it because there is no context to what my childhood was.
- [60:26]
B
Right.
- [60:26]
A
So it just sounds like what happened to her, you know? But then when I say it. Cause I've already, like, set up, like, a civil war thing or whatever. Or, like, my. You know, then I'll be like, well, you don't get out of a civil war and not want to get choked a little bit in bed. And then I think then it works.
- [60:43]
B
That's a better version of it.
- [60:44]
A
Yeah.
- [60:45]
B
Do you have other jokes? Do you have jokes you're working on?
- [60:48]
A
Yes, I have a.
- [60:49]
B
You share. Are you open to sharing them?
- [60:50]
A
Yeah, I have a. Okay. I have a. And this is. This only came up because you kind of saw me refer to it in the set, but this is the joke I was going to work on. It's not like I'm not bringing up rape all the time, but I was. Okay. So I went to. I went to Italy for a wedding, like, last Monday. I got back on Tuesday after Labor Day, and I was in Italy, and I got sexually assaulted on a bus by the bus driver.
- [61:18]
B
Oh, God.
- [61:19]
A
I know. It's. It's fine. And then I say, like. And then I say, it's Italy, so it's still cute, you know, because you can still put it on Instagram, but.
- [61:27]
B
Jesus.
- [61:28]
A
But it was like. It was like I got assaulted. And then I've started putting it, like, before, like a MeToo joke I have, because the bus driver assaulted me, but he was, like, Italian, so it was really hard to take it seriously because he's like, I'm gonna rape you. And you're like, not with that goofy accent.
- [61:46]
B
Oh, my God.
- [61:47]
A
And then, like, the next day, I called my sister, and I was like, I think I got molested on a bus. And she was like, you got assaulted? You're way too old to be molested.
- [61:56]
B
Oh, my God.
- [61:57]
A
I was like, okay, that is maybe the most hurtful part of this whole thing is hearing that I've been aged out of getting molested.
- [62:06]
B
Oh, my God.
- [62:08]
A
And then. Oh, and then I have this where. This is not. This is not a dig, you know, because everyone gets really tense when you talk about sexual assault. And I'm like. But it's like, who hasn't? Like, one in five women in America have been sexually assaulted. Which, like, to put that in perspective, getting sexually assaulted for women is the same as starting a podcast for men. It's an epidemic. Men have to stop. They have to stop podcasting one and then the assaults.
- [62:39]
B
Does that part work?
- [62:40]
A
That part. When it works, it works really well. And when it doesn't work, people are like, I don't know anyone who started a podcast. Like, so I don't know if it's more like. Like, a comic thing.
- [62:49]
B
I think, like, you're saying, like, that it's tricky to open with that because I actually think that the. The part that's tricky is that it's so recent.
- [63:01]
A
Yeah.
- [63:02]
B
Like, literally, like, comedy strategy plus time. Like, there's just not enough time. I know, because even me, I'm, like, having a hard time laughing at it because it's painful.
- [63:11]
A
Yeah, Well, I think.
- [63:12]
B
I mean, it's awful. Just awful.
- [63:15]
A
It is. And then I think if I don't, like, if I. If I wait. Well, it's like, it happened, like, a week and a half ago or two weeks ago now, but it was very, like, immediately the next day, I was like, I am done with this because I have to go to a wedding, so I'm just gonna have a good time. And it's weird, too, because women laugh at this a lot more than men do.
- [63:41]
B
But I think Italian story.
- [63:43]
A
Yeah. Because I think it is kind of like the thing I'm saying, which is, like, one in five women have experienced this. So, like, we're not all walking around being like, I'm traumatized. I can never, you know, live my regular life. Everyone's, like, understands how you compartmentalize that and go on with your life when you're a woman. And I think men are more, like, shocked by it, because that experience to them is, like, when they're a good person. It's very harrowing. You Know, and so you're kind of, like, trying to make the men feel better in a weird way, right? In the audience. To be like, it's okay. Like, we've all been there.
- [64:20]
B
Right? You know, which also may be there. That's the joke, too.
- [64:24]
A
Yeah.
- [64:24]
B
Like, there might be a joke in that. Just calling out the uncomfortableness and being like, it's always the men who feel less comfortable and then finding a punchline, like, in that universe.
- [64:35]
A
And I used to try to be like. Because it used to also, like, I have this other whole me too section, which is just like, you know, things were, like, very different before. Me, too. Like, I remember when I was in school, they took all the girls to a different classroom, and they told us that if you're ever getting attacked, don't yell rape. And then I'll say, like, do you remember what they told you to yell? And people always say, like, fire.
- [64:54]
B
Fire. Yeah.
- [64:55]
A
They told you to yell fire. Because they were like, nobody cares if you're getting raped.
- [65:00]
B
Right.
- [65:00]
A
But men actually care about property damage.
- [65:03]
B
Oh, my God.
- [65:04]
A
So someone will, you know. And then I'm like. Which is not true. Like, yelling rape does work. Like, it works. Like, I was on a date the other night, and my boyfriend took a fry from my plate and I yelled, rape.
- [65:16]
B
Oh, my God.
- [65:17]
A
And he stopped, like, immediately. So it does work, you know? And, like, the point is, like, the whole part of me, too, was like, we should talk about it more. And now when you talk about it, people are still like, I don't want to hear about this.
- [65:31]
B
Right.
- [65:32]
A
Like, there was a point where now everyone's like, everything is rape. But there was a point where rape wasn't rape. It was fire. Like, you couldn't even say it when you were getting raped. You had to be like, fire.
- [65:43]
B
Right?
- [65:43]
A
Do you guys understand my euphemism? Is anyone here reading between the lines? I'm getting raped.
- [65:50]
B
You know, that's crazy.
- [65:52]
A
Yeah. And then it's like a post me too thing.
- [65:55]
B
It's crazy, though. Like, it's almost like the Italian joke. You should try to do it, like, six months ago.
- [66:01]
A
Should I die six months ago? That's when they're like, she's processed this years ago.
- [66:07]
B
I swear to God. The week and have a go thing is, like, I'm concerned. I know you're telling jokes.
- [66:13]
A
Yeah.
- [66:14]
B
And I'm a fan.
- [66:18]
A
Of sexual assault.
- [66:19]
B
I love you're calling me the no, but it's no. The week and a half thing is, it is shocking. Like, I always had that with the Sleepwalking story. When I jumped through the window, it was like, as long as people could see when I'm telling the story that I'm okay, they're good with it. But, like, yeah, the. The. The recency, like, literally, like, I think it was, like, a few weeks after it happened, I started talking about on stage, and it is like, people being like, whoa.
- [66:49]
A
Yeah. Yeah. People are very. I hate that. Everything, even. Even when you tell someone, like, you know, whatever. Like. Like, my. My childhood was like this. It's immediately like, oh, no.
- [67:04]
B
Right.
- [67:04]
A
And you're like, oh, okay.
- [67:06]
B
I also think the audiences don't. Especially in a short set.
- [67:09]
A
Yeah.
- [67:10]
B
Audiences don't know what they're. Okay. They're allowed to laugh at.
- [67:17]
A
Yes.
- [67:17]
B
Yes. So I think that there's definitely that thing kind of like, wait, are we allowed to laugh at. Are we supposed to laugh at that part or that part? Because I don't want to be the person laughing at that part if I.
- [67:26]
A
Don'T want to be the wrong laugher. Yeah. I think, like, I started starting with it because I was like, don't get comfortable with me as a different version. Like, get comfortable with this darkness. And then if you guys are good, we'll, like. We'll, like, get through this. And then, you know.
- [67:45]
B
Yeah.
- [67:46]
A
They do, like, I will say, it's almost over. Like, we're almost done with the rainbow.
- [67:50]
B
It's almost over. Okay. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to give to? And then we will contribute and link to them in the show notes.
- [68:06]
A
Yes, I. Well, I. I did teach for America. I, like, believe in education, and my boyfriend's sister runs a really good, like, theater for underserved kids in D.C. it's called Theater 202. And it's for, like, kids who don't have a lot of resources to do musical theater, which I am explicitly against musical theater, but I think the cause in itself is good.
- [68:30]
B
Yeah. In theory.
- [68:32]
A
In theory.
- [68:32]
B
In theory, they're doing it.
- [68:33]
A
It's a really good idea. Yeah.
- [68:34]
B
So. Okay, awesome. Well, we'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. KC this is like. I mean, you're. I just am in awe of your comedy. I can't wait to see what you do next.
- [68:45]
A
This means so much to me. I mean, I. I'm a huge fan growing up because I'm so young, you.
- [68:50]
B
Know, Working it out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out. Cause there's no. That's gonna do it for another episode of Working it out, you can follow KC on Instagram cshornima. You can watch the full video of this on our YouTube channel. Check out burbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows, our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simon. Sound mix by Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. We did a jokes and poems event at Joe's Pub the other night. It was super, super fun. Sign up for the mailing list to find out about when the next one is. We're gonna do one again soon here in New York City, I think in November. Special thanks as always to our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying the show, rate it and review it on Apple Podcasts. I know it sounds ridiculous and fickle, but write a little review and say what your favorite episode is. That's how people can figure out in the 180 episodes where to begin. How would you even know where to begin? So check them out. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your drunk friend who wants to get on stage at an open mic, pull them aside and say, hey, I know I can't stop you from getting on stage right now, but maybe take five minutes and listen to a small portion of a podcast called Working it out where Mike Birbiglia talks about the creative process with other comedians and writers. That might give you a little bit of background before you jump in. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.