188. Caleb Hearon: Improv Saved His Life

Summary

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Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out – Ep. 188: Caleb Hearon: Improv Saved His Life

Date: October 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this candid and lively episode, host Mike Birbiglia welcomes the sharp and heartfelt comedian Caleb Hearon. Together they riff on comedy origins, creative processes, the highs and lows of pursuing comedy, and deeply personal territory—from survivor’s humor to grief, self-acceptance, and political hope. Birbiglia and Hearon “work out” not just fresh material, but also dissect what it means to be a comedian today, touching on self-worth, fame, internet culture, and the catharsis improv brings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Impact of "Don't Think Twice" & Comedy Origin Stories

• Improv as Calling and Trauma:
  • [02:46] Caleb raves about Birbiglia's film Don’t Think Twice, admitting it “wreaked havoc” on his college improv team. It was the first time he reckoned with the heartbreak and elation of “making it”—or not.
    • “I think it was the first time we reckoned with the idea that...making it is a thing and it's gonna happen or not happen, and that that means something.” – Caleb [03:03]
  • Caleb describes recognizing experiences from the film in his own life after living through them later.

The SNL Audition(s) and Owning Your Path

• [05:07] Caleb shares why not landing SNL was actually “the two best things that didn’t happen” to him.
  • Not getting it “lit a fire under me,” and SNL producer Steve Higgins advising him to “be doing Internet videos” spurred his next steps.
    • “I was like, I don't want to do Internet videos. And he was like, 'too bad.' And I really did need to hear that.” – Caleb [05:48]
• Emphasizes building a career via alternative circuits: sketch, alt rooms, and a blend of standup and experimental formats with creatives like Meg Stalter and Sarah Squirm in Chicago.

Grief, Happiness, and Suicidal Ideation—Onstage and Off

• [10:14] Mike explores feedback Caleb receives on being both happy and forthright about mental health struggles.
  • “Everything is bad. I’m so scared. …There just gets to a point where you’re like, ‘Okay, then either kill yourself or find a way to deal with it.’” – Caleb [10:34]
• Articulates the ongoing negotiation with mental health, and how honesty fuels connection—and comedy.

Crowd Work, Being Known, and Finding Authenticity

• [11:11] Conversation about inviting the audience to shout insults (“fat ass”) in his special and the real reactions it evokes.
  • “You could see it in their eyes that you’re like, this meant a lot to you to get to do this.” – Caleb [12:57]
• Discusses the weirdness and comfort when fans treat him like an old friend—but his preference for normalcy over reverence.

Kansas City—Hometown Praise & Political Hope

• [14:17] Caleb paints Kansas City as an underrated gem, lauding its kindness, green landscapes, new airport, and, notably, the KC Tenants union (“the strongest tenant union in the country”).
• Gives a grassroots pitch for the city’s blue oasis feeling within red Missouri, and the sense of practical, diverse community.

Identity, Stereotypes, and Haircuts

• Humorous return to his “I don’t respect straight guys” bit:
  • “I think you could have a gayer haircut.” – Caleb to Mike [16:23]

Work Ethic—Miranda Priestley Edition

• [19:30] Mike asks Caleb for his most “Miranda Priestley” (The Devil Wears Prada) opinion.
  • “People need to work harder….there’s a lot of sitting around going on.” – Caleb [19:30]
• Credits his mother’s tireless work ethic and sees it reflected, sometimes toxically, in modern creative life.

The Value—and Limits—of Improv

• [22:08] Both agree that, “there’s no economic upside to improv,” but it’s nonetheless transformative.
  • “Improv changed my life. Probably honestly saved my life...deciding to train in improv when I was in college and after is the best thing that ever happened to me.” – Caleb [23:05]
• Improv, for Caleb, feeds his writing, standup, and relational skills.

Writing Process—It’s All Onstage

• [23:53] Caleb never fully writes out jokes—he works from bullet points and almost always starts on stage.
• Avoids traditional open mics, preferring to test new material within alt and mixed-show formats.

Navigating Audience Criticism & Tough Topics

• [25:04] Most negative feedback comes via DM rather than live heckling.
• Shares a memorable, difficult exchange with an audience member over Holocaust-related material, describing his attempt to open dialogue before letting it go.
  • “What would make you...think that about this material?...She was like, ‘I don’t dialogue with anti-Semites.’” – Caleb [26:39]

Social Media Influence and the Mr. Beast "Feud"

• [28:20] Rolling Stone named Caleb the #6 most influential creator, ahead of Mr. Beast—prompting a “one-sided feud.”
  • Mr. Beast tweeted about it, then called Caleb personally to apologize.
  • “He was like, you’re alarmingly nice. Why do you think that is?” – Caleb [29:42]

Selective Vulnerability in Comedy Specials

• [30:15] Caleb reflects on what to include in his HBO special—leaving some personal family grief “for the room,” not posterity.
  • “There are certain things that are for in the room and certain things that are for the taping.” – Caleb [31:18]

The Limitation of Stand-Up Recordings

• [32:01] Both discuss how filmed specials never quite capture the “spark” of a room.
  • “It’s like the shadow on the cave…it’s not the person. It’s not being in the room with the candle.” – Caleb [33:00]
  • “I find it to be devastating.” – Mike, on watching his own specials [33:56]

A Teenage Business Suit & Outgrowing Shame

• Caleb shares the emotional backstory of buying a business suit at 15—an attempt to “distance” himself from poverty and fit in as a “fat, closeted, poor kid.”
  • “Accomplishments were my distancing tool from these other things that were not good about me. And suit was part of that.” – Caleb [35:43]

Slow Round – Jealousy, Energy, and Happiness

• Who is Caleb jealous of?
  • His musician friend Katie Crutchfield (aka Waxahatchee), for living creatively and maintaining privacy. [40:45]
• Discussion of “balanced energy” and the challenge of being “at a 10” for audiences but not in life. [42:12]
  • “When people come see me, and then afterwards, if they come up to me in the street, they’re like, basically, like, how come you’re not a 10?” – Mike [42:46]
• What’s changed from 10 years ago?
  • Caleb no longer sees happiness as a personality type, but as an emotional state; no longer believes “everyone who disagrees with me is bad.” [44:40]
  • “Happy is not a type of person. It’s a thing that you feel.” – Caleb [45:02]

Learning Empathy & Moving Past Punitive Thinking

• Caleb talks about moving beyond the desire to punish or “other” people who disagree, recognizing “everyone has cops inside of us.” [47:31]

Story Time—The Rat Incident

• Caleb tells a vivid, comedic story about fishing a dead rat from a pool with his foot—toe to hand—and the futile showering afterward.
  • “I picked up a waterlogged dead rat, from my toe to my hand… I need to be alone for a while.” – Caleb [50:18]
  • Became physically ill recalling it on air.

The Comedy Notebook – Premises and Bits in Progress

• Vape in the Tulips:
  • Caleb saw someone throw a used vape into a bed of Chicago tulips and jokes about the “moral calculus” and imagining what would excuse such behavior. [54:04]
• Relatability—Girlhood and Friendship:
  • Wonders about boundaries of gendered experience after seeing a TikTok captioned “how would you even explain this to a man?” [57:07]
• Abortion Clinics in Comedy:
  • Mike and Caleb riff on bizarre encounters and signage involving abortion, using dark humor to probe taboos and perspectives. [59:14]

Cause of the Week: KC Tenants

• [60:56] Caleb shouts out KC Tenants, the Kansas City Tenant Union, for organizing around safe, affordable housing—credited for restoring his political hope.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Not Getting SNL:
  “Not getting it was, yeah, absolutely the two best things that didn't happen to me.”
  — Caleb [05:13]

• On Happiness and Mental Health:
  “Everything is bad. I'm so scared…There just gets to a point where you're like, okay, then either kill yourself or find a way to deal with it.”
  — Caleb [10:34]

• On Presence in Improv:
  “I think truly being happy is about noticing and paying attention. And there are so many things in life that can be boring if you let them be, but are exciting and wonderful and beautiful if you just pay attention to them.”
  — Caleb [23:05]

• On Jealousy:
  “…all of my musician friends. And I will say very specifically, my friend Katie Crutchfield, who is a musician, who performs as Waxahatchee. She, I think, has such a wonderful grasp on creativity and having a huge career moment and making beautiful, wonderful, specific art, but also living such a wonderful private life and maintaining mystery.”
  — Caleb [40:45]

• On the Human Impulse to Punish:
  “…wanting to, you know, withhold communication or warmth… the idea of punishment and maybe making subconsciously even people to pay is a big thing for us culturally. We have a lot of cops inside of us.”
  — Caleb [47:31]

• On Finding a Dead Rat in the Pool:
  “I picked up a waterlogged dead rat. From my toe to my hand. …And I. I, I want to tell you that I feel really sick right now.”
  — Caleb [51:31]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:46] – Caleb on Don’t Think Twice and college improv angst
• [05:07] – SNL auditions, rejection, and finding purpose
• [10:14] – Balancing mental health and happiness
• [11:11] – The fat joke/crowd work dilemma
• [14:17] – Kansas City pitch and organizing
• [19:30] – Devil Wears Prada “work harder” philosophy
• [22:08] – Economics and value of improv
• [23:53] – Writing process: “I never write it down”
• [25:04] – Tough crowd feedback, responding to offense
• [28:20] – Mr. Beast “feud” and internet culture
• [30:15] – What to leave out of a special (“for in the room”)
• [32:01] – Why tapings can’t capture live standup spark
• [35:13] – The teenage business suit: poverty and aspiration
• [40:45] – Slow round: jealousy (“I’m jealous of Waxahatchee”)
• [44:40] – Changed beliefs: “happy isn’t a type of person”
• [47:31] – Moving past black-and-white morality, empathy
• [50:18] – The dead rat pool story
• [54:04] – “Vape in the tulips” pet peeve premise
• [60:56] – Cause of the week: KC Tenants

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Tone & Style Highlights

• Playful candor: The episode toggles between banter, genuine introspection, and quick comedic riffs.
• Self-deprecation: Both comedians leverage their vulnerabilities as strengths—whether discussing their careers, mental health, or dead rats.
• Mutual admiration: The hosts continually compliment and tease one another, modeling respect within comedic critique and collaboration.

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Cause Shouted Out

KC Tenants – Kansas City’s tenant union:
Fighting for affordable, safe housing and pushing back against gentrification and corporate landlords; a testament to local organizing power.

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For New Listeners

This episode balances raw honesty with humor—essential not only for comedy nerds but for anyone interested in the creative process, mental health, and what it means to self-reflect and grow in community. Caleb’s mix of sincerity, wit, and activism makes for an enriching listen.

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Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've said that you don't respect straight guys as a rule.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the disrespectful thing that you think about me that you're not saying?

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, you're doing away, swing away.

[Caleb Herron]

Straight, straight. Still. Is that still the truth? Okay. You never know. It's. My life is long and things are.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Caleb Herron. Caleb Herron is a fantastic stand up comedian. He has a new special on HBO called Model Comedian. It's hilarious. He hosts a podcast called so True with Caleb Herron. He's been doing stand up and improv for years and years and he's having a big moment right now. We just walked into the studio, a fan of his came up and they were chatting. He's very sweet. He's very sweet guy. Very funny person. We have really fun conversation today. We'd never met. It was a great example of when the podcast becomes really fun for me, just meeting a new person who I think is hilarious. Also in the studio today with him are two of his associates, Chance and Michelle, who are really sweet and funny. For those of you who don't know, we actually just launched Working It Out Premium. So you notice if you're on Apple Podcasts in the feed there's a new episode that you can only access in if you subscribe to Working It Out Premium. We did an episode that is called Mike Punches up youp Jokes. I take your jokes. The audio from people sent in emailed us jokes to workingoutpodmail.com and we play them on the premium feed and we talk about what works, about the jokes, what's not as strong as the jokes and some possible tags. You also, if you sign up for Premium, you get an ad free version of the podcast. It's $4.99 a month. You get these extra episodes, you get no ads ever. You help support our show. We appreciate it. There will be more bonus content like that coming soon. Check it out on the premium feed on Apple Podcasts. Love this talk with Caleb Herron today. This year he was named one of the 25 most influential creators of the year by Rolling Stone, where he outranked, wait for it, Mr. Beast. We talk about that today. A one sided feud between him and Mr. Beast. We have get into that. We talk about Kansas City, Caleb from Kansas City. We talk about his new special in hbo. Great talk. You're going to love this one. Enjoy my chat with the great Caleb Heron. You were just making a joke about the don't think Twice Poster on the wall. Do you have a personal story with it?

[Caleb Herron]

Dude, you can never understand. I love this movie. I love your movie so much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You don't have to, by the way.

[Caleb Herron]

And I do. I would be honest if I didn't. Everybody would tell you if I was like. I would give notes, but I thought it was so wonderful. And you can't understand the havoc it wreaked on my college improv team. I hear that a lot. I'm dead serious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I hear that a lot.

[Caleb Herron]

It was me and Chance and a couple of our other buddies that watched it, and it just, like. I think it was the first time we reckoned with the idea that, like, there's a. That making it is, like, a thing and it's gonna happen or not happen, and that that means something in some way. It fucked us up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it does. It does hit home with improvisers, particularly. And I find bands. Yeah, a lot of people have that same thing with bands.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Someone will, like, be. Someone will break out from a band and be, like, a solo act.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Huge.

[Caleb Herron]

There's so many things I love about it. I really could go on and on. I mean, Tammy Sager, I've been a fan of hers for so long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Unbelievable.

[Caleb Herron]

I just think she's a genius and getting to see her in it. But probably my favorite part that we talk about all the time, we actually rewatched it, like, a couple weeks ago. Chance and I and our friend Holmes, we got high on the couch and rewatched it. And my favorite part is when he goes, I felt it to be true that if I didn't get this, I was gonna kill myself.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, if you had to keep living like us. My favorite. I just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I love it. I have to give credit to Chris Gethard. Chris Gethard, that was stolen from a real conversation that he had in real life when one of his friends got the show.

[Caleb Herron]

It's funny, dude. That's so fucking funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's something about that show and you. You auditioned for the show a couple times. Something about that show that feels like. And this is why I did it in the movie. It's like. That feels like the government of comedy.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, if there is an official comedy show, that's it.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's all we have.

[Caleb Herron]

It's like the only place where comedians get to be next to legitimate power and star, like, stardom. It's like you get. You're next to the famous person of the week and this musician, you know, and, yeah, it really drives people crazy. But there's so. There's so many killer, Killer moments in that movie. I love it as a whole piece, but just so many beautiful moments that actually, when we watched it for the first time when we were teenagers, we didn't actually know yet. How I've returned to moments of that movie in my head and been like, that is identically how that went. I've lived it now, and it was very funny to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You auditioned for SNL twice, and you've said it was the best thing that ever happened to you, not getting on the show.

[Caleb Herron]

In a way, yeah. It's funny because in the press cycle for the HBO special especially, a lot of people have brought up the SNL stuff. And I'm very honest about being happy that I don't work there, but I don't have a grudge against the place. I just think a lot of the way they do things is really psycho and everyone knows it. And now there's kind of this new era of going back to pretending that it's not crazy there and not getting it was, yeah, absolutely the two best things that didn't happen to me. But the first time, I really, really wanted it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you say more about, like, why? Because it seems obvious to me why it's better for you to have not gotten it. But what are you able to do now because you didn't get it?

[Caleb Herron]

Well, I think it really. It lit a fire under me to not get it the first time. I was really. You know, Steve Higgins was like, you should be doing Internet videos. And I wasn't at the time. And I was like, I don't want to do Internet videos. And he was like, too bad. And I really did need to hear that. You know what I mean? I was like, thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He, like, pulled you aside at the audition?

[Caleb Herron]

No, when we were. Because it was during the first time I did it. I was in. I was still living in Chicago at the time, and we, like, had to go and have drinks with them, like a roundtable of drinks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So were you at, like, I.O. or Second City?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, I was in I.O. and they saw me on a showcase, and then they called me and had me come, and they'd have drinks with you in Chicago before they decide if they're gonna fly you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Caleb Herron]

And Steve, during the drinks, was, like, kind of giving me the business. Like, he was like. He was like, what do you do for a living? And I think at the time, I had so many day jobs in Chicago, but I think I worked at an ad agency. And he was like, he Was like, do you write copy? I was like, no. I tried to just, like, write comedy. I don't really want to get into writing at work. And he was like, that's stupid. You can get paid to write. Do it. Like, really? Just, like, kind of. And I was like, yes, sir. You know, I was very like, okay, this is kind of intense.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I O for the listeners. If people don't know it was improv. Improv. Olympic in Chicago, Copyright infringement. It's called IO.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. That's a long story short.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They can't use the word Olympic.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you did that, and then while you were in Chicago, were you doing standup at the same time?

[Caleb Herron]

Kind of. I really, like, quickly into doing improv and stuff was like this. I need to do more. Like, just doing the improv shows. I was like, I need to be doing solo stuff. I need to be writing. It doesn't feel like the improv thing really goes anywhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Caleb Herron]

And I, like, three months in, I started talking like this, and my friends were like, you're annoying. And I was like, absolutely. I was like, absolutely.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know that. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

But I started doing mostly sketch and characters and stuff and had done standup in college, but kind of got away from it because so many. The open mics were nightmares and the standups were assholes, and I didn't like the vibe of the room.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And then I eventually found a kind of hybrid thing where I was doing, like, it was like, me, Meg's Dalter, Sarah Squirm, Grace, Kuhlin, Schmidt, Holmes. In Chicago, there were, like, these alt rooms where you could do, like. It was all experimental, but it was like we were doing, like, PowerPoint comedy and, like, weird mixes of, like, character and standup.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And then through that, I was like, oh, I actually can just do standup in these rooms.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

So I pivoted into just doing standup again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a great scene.

[Caleb Herron]

It was awesome scene.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I didn't know all those people came up at the same time.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, we were all in Chicago around the same time. There's a bunch of. There's probably people. I'm forgetting as well, but there were so many funny people in Chicago at that time doing, like, the hideout and the shithole and, like, a bunch of those. All rooms.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow. So you moved up there, and then how did you end up making it to. We were talking before the podcast about you live in New York and Kansas City.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How did you make the leap to New York?

[Caleb Herron]

Well, I. So I lived in Chicago for a while, and then I Told myself, like, it's so funny because end of 2019 is when I did that first SNL audition. I flew to New York and did the screen test, didn't get it. And then that was. Well, I guess that was middle of. That was like August or summer of 2019. And then I was like, I'm gonna start doing videos, and in next year, I'm quitting my job no matter what and moving to la. And then I started doing videos. It. It took a little bit, but it started going well. And then I quit my day job. I was working as an assistant at a ad agency at the time. I was like, I' done. I gotta go chase comedy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And January of 2020, I quit my day job with benefits. And then Covid hit. And so I was like, driving for Uber Eats during COVID And then my lease was up and I was like, I'm just gonna move to LA anyway. So I moved to LA during COVID because I said I would. And then that actually turned out to be a really good choice. And then sometime during COVID I got my first writing job over Zoom. And so then I lived in LA for a couple years. And then my dad died in 2022, and I started going home a lot to do dead dad stuff. And then as it's called. And the check.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Checklist.

[Caleb Herron]

Checklist. Big one got legal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Zoom. When your dad dies, you'll need these five documents, basically.

[Caleb Herron]

And the funny thing, the funniest thing to me was when they're like, you need seven death certificates. I was like, will a picture of the body work? Like, he's. He's dead, y'. All. Like, there's really. No, I'm not faking it. But I was doing all that stuff. And then I was really kind of falling back in love with home. And I'd been writing for TV long enough that I had a little bit of money saved. I was like, I'm just going to buy a house back at home and kind of go back and forth between L. A. And then eventually I left L. A and came to New York like, a year ago.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you've had, like, a wild five years.

[Caleb Herron]

It's been a. Yeah, it's been a weird one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's interesting because you talk about how you are happy, you're special.

[Caleb Herron]

Which I get a lot of feedback on. People are like, okay. And how and why.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, what's the feedback?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, people are very confused by that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you also talk about suicidal ideation. So it's like, how are those in concert with one Another.

[Caleb Herron]

Well, one was gonna win.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One of them has ambition.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. One's gonna have to win and we'll see which one I. No, I think, like. I don't know. I'm just. Everything is. It's just all things are true. Everything is bad. I'm so scared. I don't understand why the world is so. The way that it is. I think it makes no sense to me that so many people are suffering when so many people have it so well. And that all does still weigh on me the way did when I wanted to kill myself. But there. There just gets to a point where you're like, okay, then either kill yourself or find a way to deal with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And so you just find a way to deal with it. You know, I get that or you don't. And then it's the other thing, Right? Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's that again?

[Caleb Herron]

Suicide.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Jesus.

[Caleb Herron]

We're supposed to say it hushed. We're not supposed to talk about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The. One of the things I love about your special is that you force the audience to say, hey, fat ass. Or a variation on it. Yeah. So that you'll have a comeback.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One of your comebacks to it. People should watch the special. It's so funny. But I was thinking when I was watching it when you toured that you must have gotten some wild reads of that.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was a Cause I've done crowd work stuff where you're like, essentially priming the audience to say something. It's like you see some wild variations.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, you get a version of. Honestly, there's one of the. Me and Michelle went to a socialist book event last night, and when they opened it up for the Q and A, there was immediately an old guy who jumped up and did a three minute monologue with no question. And he was like. He was like. He was like a little out of his mind, but in a way where it's like, he's our community, you know? But like, he was like. He was like, you know, the real estate investors. And I'll tell you another thing, too. And we're all kind of like, yes, sir. And that's what it's like opening it up to the audience at a standup club. It's like someone who's been drinking since noon. This is their one day out for the month. And if you give them a moment, that's your fault. You know what I mean? And you get some crazy ones, Right. And I love it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was. Was it that someone had, like, a really good Read of it like a bully read. Did you ever hit people where you're like, oh, this person was a bully?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, that's how I found the bit. Actually, in that bit, I was hesitant about whether or not to put that bit in the special because I crowdwork in specials I often really hate. And I was like, I don't know if I want to do that. It's also not their job to be funny, it's mine. And so I have real dilemmas about it. And I ended up doing it because I really like how it ended up fitting in the whole hour. But part of how I found the joke was that I was, like, testing out an initial version of the joke that wasn't at all about me pushing back on the way they were saying it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And then there was just, like, a couple times early on in that bit that someone was so excited to do it that I was like, you really wanted to call me fat? Like, you really, like, you were excited. That really hurts. Like, you. Like, you can see it in their eyes that you're like, this meant a lot to you to get to do this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And it's very funny to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Totally. Well, it's interesting because you. You know, your podcast is so kind of you, and your specialist is so you. I feel like you probably get a lot of people, even on the street. Just now, someone came up and was just talking, talking, talking, talking to you as though they know you.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That must be, like, an odd byproduct of the type of comedy you do.

[Caleb Herron]

It is. I actually prefer the. It's all very new to me, and I have learned that I prefer when someone's just like. Just like, oh, hey, Kel, how's it going, man?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

I prefer that to, like, the, like, setting apart, like, straight, like, oh, my God, you know, Which I don't. I'm not faulting anyone or making fun of anyone who's like that, because I know that it can be like that, but I really prefer. I would love to be treated normally, and I would love to feel normal, and it's a new thing that I'm kind of not sometimes. And so I like when someone's just like, hey, Caleb, how's it going? I think that's really nice, I have to say.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, one time in Kansas City, I was playing there, and I know you love Kansas City. I love Kansas City.

[Caleb Herron]

Do your.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait. Give us. Give us a sell for Kansas City.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, well, you were probably about to. I think.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, you can give a real one.

[Caleb Herron]

My real sell. In Kansas City. Oh, man. Kansas City. The people are nice, the streets are wide, the trees are tall. It's very green. It's a beautiful, beautiful place to live. It's right in the middle, so it's easy to. For people like us, it's really easy to get everywhere. It's like an hour and a half flight from Chicago and Atlanta, three from la, three from New York. We just got a brand new international airport, so it's making my life a lot easier.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Nice.

[Caleb Herron]

There's an incredible tenant union, like the strongest tenant union in the country, that's doing really, really good work protecting renters and working people in the city from a lot of the things that are ruining so many of our cities. It's. It's a blue city, but it's not. You still feel like you're in the world, like it is in the middle of a sea of red. And so you have to get along with everybody and figure things out. But I love it there. And I'm always talking about how great it is because I just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's.

[Caleb Herron]

I think it's a wonderful place to live.

[Mike Birbiglia]

First time I ever went to Kansas City, I decided, okay, it's the home of barbecue.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Every day I'm going to eat different barbecue.

[Caleb Herron]

Felt so sick. Your whole trip.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've never felt sick. It felt like my blood stopped.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

After five days, I went to Arthur's. I went to, like, you know, like, all the different ones, and I looked up all the different ones. I literally felt like I think my body's going to stop moving.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And. And it will.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So now I'll have the barbecue today. But, like. But I don't do two.

[Caleb Herron]

I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

From then on, I don't do two days in a row. No. You. You've said that you don't respect straight guys. As a rule.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the. What's the disrespectful thing that you think about me that you're not saying?

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, you're doing away. Swing away.

[Caleb Herron]

Straight. Straight. Still. Is that still the truth? Okay. You never know. It's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mike.

[Caleb Herron]

Life is long and things are. Life is long and people change. I'm glad to hear it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Straight, married 17 years.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Congratulations. That really is beautiful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks.

[Caleb Herron]

That being said.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That being said.

[Caleb Herron]

I think you could have a gayer haircut.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. Yeah, fair.

[Caleb Herron]

I think you could have a gayer haircut.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, that's it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you say that, what do you mean?

[Caleb Herron]

Like, just. I think you could do a little.

[Mike Birbiglia]

More when you're saying Gayer? You mean more fashionable? Yeah, yeah, of course I could.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's all I mean, this hair is says I've given up in 10 different ways.

[Caleb Herron]

I think it's working for you, but I think if, if you let me get my hands in there, I think we could do something really special.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Support for working it out comes from Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Here's why I said yes to making the switch and getting Premium Wireless for 15 bucks a month. I tour the country. I tour the world. I've been super satisfied with Mint Mobile's coverage. Trust me, I know what it's like to be stranded in a broken down car in the middle of nowhere. I talk about it endlessly. It's not fun. But Mint Mobile runs on the T Mobile 5G network, America's largest 5G network. I used to have a wireless service that shall remain nameless because I thought it was overpriced and didn't provide coverage that I needed. Then I made the switch to Mint Mobile and I love it. Ready to say yes to saying no. Make the [e-mail] perbigs that's mintmobile.com perbigs upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mob Mobile for details. Support for working out comes from Rula. Look, finding a therapist is hard. Just ask me. I've had two therapists over the many, many years. Finding one that takes your insurance is even harder. And we never talk about this. Sometimes keeping a therapist can be hard. This happens sometimes against all odds. You find a therapist who takes your insurance and then they change offices and. Or they retire or they die. I mean, that's. Another friend of mine had that happen. That's a whole deal. When your therapist dies, that can happen. Natural causes, you know, or they don't do virtual appointments. All these things happen. But with Rula you can avoid these problems because Rula is an online therapy platform that partners with a network of over 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find your personalized solution and the right therapist for you based on your needs, preferences and state requirements. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.com for Biggs to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about Rula. Please support our podcast and let them know that we sent you. That's rula.com r u l a dot com for Biggs. P-I r b I g s. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. You're in Devil Wears Prada too. What is your most Miranda Priestley esque belief?

[Caleb Herron]

People need to work harder. Yeah, people need to work harder. And I don't mean everybody. A whole bunch of people are working quite hard.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Caleb Herron]

I mean, people in my life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's really funny.

[Caleb Herron]

I mean, like, creatives. Like, mostly the creatives I meet in Brooklyn, they're like, oh, my God, life is so hard. I'm doing so much. And I'm like, you tell me about. They tell me about their day and I go, you're not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

You're not doing much. You're cut. There's a lot of sitting around going on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Just work harder.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I think it sounds like you probably got that from your mom because your mom had worked, like, three jobs when you were a kid.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like I got it from my dad, like, because my dad's a doctor and, like, in his free time, he gets a law degree, so he's, like, always working. I have the same kind of thing. Yeah. I'm just like. But it's a little bit of an illness, too.

[Caleb Herron]

Totally. I don't think that we're. I don't think that hard work is virtuous. I think that it. I think that if you want. But I think that if you want an interesting, fun, full life, working hard is a piece of it. I don't think that you should be exclusively working hard. I don't think the hard work should come before joy or relaxation or family or friends necessarily all the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

But I think. Yeah, I think just people should work a little harder because they're always talking about the things they want, but then the work often doesn't match up to it. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is there anything you. From watching Meryl Streep perform on that movie that you learned?

[Caleb Herron]

You know, one of the. Okay, so when we did a big table read before the movie, like, and everyone came in person and did a big table read, which was very cool. Cause then you also get to meet everyone before.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, you did the thing, and it's very. Can be intimidating. So I was excited to meet everybody, and I got to watch Meryl and Anne Hathaway and Emily Blunt. Stan was on Zoom. Cause he was in Italy or something, which tracks. But I got to watch them make choices about the character in the moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Like, they. You know, Meryl would do a line of coke, and she would perform. Kidding. She would perform a line, and then she would, like, kind of just take a second and, like, redo it quickly in the way that you're, like, that's how she's probably gonna do it in the movie. And it was so fun to just watch her process and to watch, too, that, like, she's doing this in front of a bunch of people and making choices and then rethinking them and, like, actually doing the work of making the choice for the character in the moment in front of people. And I think that's very humble and very cool, especially for someone who could phone it in. Meryl can phone it in if she's got it like that. She's, like, totally decided she's a legend. And I just thought I was watching that, and I was really like, I actually could do so much better at that. And I could work. It just made me want to work harder. I was like, I can be more prepared. I can do better. I can. You know, if I catch myself phoning it in, I actually could do. I could do even better and work even harder and be more present. Because that was very inspiring.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's a part of, like, what improv teaches you, in a way. I always think about improv as being like. Like, to your point, there's no economic upside of improv. You and I both know some of the best improvisers in the world who are just out of work because there's no. Unless you figure out how to turn it into being an actor, being a writer, being a director, a producer, whatever. There's just no upside. I mean, you can't sell that as a product. Or maybe 10 people can. Ben Schwartz can.

[Caleb Herron]

Ben Schwartz can and does.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ben Schwartz.

[Caleb Herron]

Ben Schwartz can and does.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ben Schwartz and TJ and Dave and I think the list is maybe five.

[Caleb Herron]

More people might be the. Yeah, those might be the ones.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it is an interesting case of like. Of, like, it does. Do you feel like your improv helps you on a daily basis? Things like the table read or things like, you know, the other stuff you do? Like, how does it inform what you do? Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Improv changed my life. Probably honestly saved my life. I think improv very much. Like, I'm a huge believer in improv. I think everyone should train in improv, if they can. For even just for life. I think it makes you more present. I think it makes you a better conversationalist. I think it makes you enjoy. It's all about noticing and paying attention. And I think truly being happy is about noticing and paying attention. And there are so many things in life that can be boring if you let them be, but are exciting and wonderful and beautiful if you just pay attention to them. And improv. It's every. Yeah, I'm a. I would be a horrible standup if I wasn't trained in improv. I would be a horrible writer if I wasn't trained in improv. I would be a worse friend. I really do think that improv. Deciding to train in improv when I was in college and then after is, like, the best thing that ever happened to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I really believe in it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What does the blank page look like for you? Like, where do you start from when you're writing? Stand up.

[Caleb Herron]

I never write it down.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, you don't?

[Caleb Herron]

I never write.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You do bullet points.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, eventually. I. I almost always start from the stage, and what I'll do is I'll do someone else. I'll do, like, a show that isn't my own, that I didn't sell the tickets to. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, be on someone's lineup or something. And I'll do, like. I'll open with a joke that I'll usually open with something that I know works, that's older, and then I'll do a bunch of new stuff, and then somewhere in the middle, I'll do something that I know works.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And then a bunch of new stuff, and then I'll close with an old one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I just work it. That's how I. I went to a couple open mics when I started, and I was like, absolutely not. I'm gonna have to find a different way to do this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Mics weren't for me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

So I. I hardly ever end up with a fully written down joke on paper.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

The time I got the closest ever in my career so far was the HBO special Y. And even then, it was bullet points.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But did you have to give them a transcript?

[Caleb Herron]

I think my team sent them, like, a transcript of, like, a video of it or something, but I didn't sit down and write it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you ever have shows where. Where people object to you talking about different. Certain topics? Yeah. What does it feel? What is that like? What does it feel like?

[Caleb Herron]

Mostly my audience is pretty. I don't Get a lot of yelling out in the moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I don't get a lot of hecklers.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A lot of emails.

[Caleb Herron]

I get. Oh, I get it. I get, I get, I get, I get emails.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I get DMs. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, I guess I think we might.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Have a similar audience in that way. Yeah, they're not rude people, but they're like. I have some thoughts.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, I had a really interesting one, actually. The whole time I have a huge chunk of the HBO special is talking about the Holocaust and this tour that I went on. And to me the politics of it are so clear. It's the hardest thing I've ever cracked. And I did it at a show in D.C. and I did a small co headlining tour with a musician friend of mine just for shits and giggles.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow.

[Caleb Herron]

It was so fun. And she did like 30 minutes of her latest album and I did 30 minutes of stand up. Then we had some drag queens. It was a blast.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So fun.

[Caleb Herron]

I got. She and I both got barraged by this one woman after the D.C. show that was like calling me anti Semitic. That, like, how dare I joke about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, really?

[Caleb Herron]

Yes. Very upset.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. And so just to give context to people you talk about going to on a tour of a concentration camp a couple years ago.

[Caleb Herron]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And, yeah. And so, but I, I actually, I almost never engage with this kind of stuff. Yeah. But she seemed so. I looked at her page and she like works for a nonprofit and she seemed very like someone I would get along with. So I accepted the DM request and I was like, you know, hey, I, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I would love to talk more about it. Like, I think the politics are so clear. And what I'm. What I'm after here is this. And what do you think about that and what made you. What moment of it made you feel this way? Because I'm interested. And she was like, I don't dialogue with anti Semites.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, gosh.

[Caleb Herron]

And I was like, like, okay, well, I, I would love to again. And I tried again. I was like, I would love to talk about what would make you say that and what would make you think that about this material. And who knows why I'm doing this. I guess I just found was kind of jarring that someone who seems so rational based on what I was seeing other than this, like looking at their page and what they support and some of the things.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I feel the same way.

[Caleb Herron]

And then I. Yeah, she again was like, the fact that you even feel comfortable joking about that is a sign of blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, okay. Well, if you want a refund, let us know. We'd be happy to get your money back. And all the best. So something really happened there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

But it'll be stuff like. And that also is very sparing. Honestly, don't get a lot of that. But that was the. The. Probably the one of the last five years that has stuck out to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is something that I am similar about, though. Like, when I'm touring, like a new hour, if I'm noticing there's like five emails about, like, a topic that I'm hitting. I'm like, like, I am similar to you. Sort of curious, like, oh, how come this is. How come this is a thing that's bumping people.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And you. To do it. To do. I generally think, look, if there's that many people upset about it, I'm doing a bad job. Yeah. Because the politics should be clear. I've built my credibility. I've spent enough time in the set telling you who I am that you should feel comfortable letting me walk a little bit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

Like, you know, I'm thinking, like, I know that this is sensitive material. I've worked really hard to be able to do this. So when it doesn't go, that's one of the. It's such a. It's literally one person in many, many thousands from that tour that I'm like, you gotta let it go. But it does confuse me. Cause I'm like, I wanna understand on a human level what's not connecting here between two rational people who mostly agree completely and you just gotta let it go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were named the sixth most influential social media creator in the world. You outranked Mr. Beast, which resulted in Mr. Beast. And I saw this when it happened, tweeting about you in frustration. But then I just found out today. He called you to apologize.

[Caleb Herron]

He did, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What'd he say?

[Caleb Herron]

He, he, you know, he tweeted the thing and the, The. The. He tweeted like, oh, he only has.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A million followers or something. Like some kind of like, he was.

[Caleb Herron]

Like this guy that rolling the. They think that this guy with a million followers is more influential than me. What I do to piss off the Rolling Stones or whatever. And, yeah, he DM me and was like, hey, could I call you? I want to apologize. And I was like, yeah, you really don't need to, but if you'd like to, no worries. Like, here's my number. And he called me and he was. He was very apologetic. I Thought it was really nice of him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I was like, don't worry about it. I genuinely thought it was funny. I'm totally not bent out of shape about it. No worries. I also, for the record, agree with you. To me, it's very obvious that he's more influential than me. I'm not really interested in influence as, like, a. That's not what I'm after.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

It's a byproduct of my job. But, yeah, I was like, whatever, man. No worries. Like, we're good. And he was very. He was very, like, yeah. I just think, like, sometimes the people around me get me spun up about this stuff. And I was like, you should probably get better people around you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God.

[Caleb Herron]

And he was like, you're alarmingly nice. Like, why do you think that is? Like, I'd love to understand a little bit more about you and he. And we talked for a little bit about life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's nice.

[Caleb Herron]

It was perfectly sweet. It was a perfectly sweet thing. I feel bad for the guy in many ways. I don't. I can't imagine. You know, I struggle with, like, the level of attention that I get.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I can't imagine what life is like for him. I don't want it. And I'm like, God love you that the whole thing seems stressful. I bet if I were in your position, I would also get spun out about things like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And so whatever. Who cares?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I was just like, rock on. That's fine.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, you talked about how when you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Were crafting your special, you wanted it take out stuff related to grieving your father because it was for the live audience only.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, what do you think you'll talk about that moving forward? Because it feels like it's so fertile for, like, I did a whole special about my dad's stroke. So it's like. I know. Like, it seems like you could be hilarious in that space.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. I left in a good chunk of it. There was just some stuff that got. That started to deal with my family's grieving that wasn't. Didn't really feel like it was mine to tell in a recording forever on hbo. There were a couple of years at the beginning of my standup career where I turned down every opportunity to tape Stand up, like the Comedy Central Presents and all that stuff. Cause I really had a pretty firm belief for a while that Stand up is meant to happen in the room, and I didn't want to record it for me personally. And then I was like, but you love standup specials. You love so many people's recorded standup. And so my opinion changed on that. But there is still some stuff that I'm like, there are certain things that are for in the room and certain things that are for the taping.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I mean, sans the crowd work piece, I put in my special. All of my crowd work is for in the room. And I love crowd work. It's usually a decent part of the show. But. Yeah, I just. I feel like there's some things, especially when it gets into, like the very specific ways that my grandma was grieving that were quite funny but just aren't mine. I just felt like if I feel like I would need to call her and get her permission to put it in, then I just shouldn't do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, totally.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, and that was just for me, I think it was. I loved it in the room. I thought it was great material.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know what you mean, though, about stand up being an in the room art form like it is. There is something lost. Always when you see someone live and then you see the film special, don't you feel? Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Well, how do you feel when you watch it? Because I'll tell you, this is the first time I've. This is my first stand up special and the first time I watched it. Oh, Mike, I was so sick. I was like, I hate this. Feels like a flop. I was like, I hate this. It doesn't feel anything like it felt in the room and filming it in general. The vibe of everyone knowing that they were there for a taping. The special. I love the special. I'm so proud of the special. It does not feel the way it felt on the tour.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

Something is lost.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I don't think I could have done a better job for what it was at the time. And the team I got was so incredible. But I just think, like, yeah, there's an extra spark missing. Especially when you inherently and especially you're limiting yourself from, like, you're not gonna come in and spend 10 minutes talking about the parking situation at the venue.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of course.

[Caleb Herron]

But in a live show, if the parking situation at the venue is crazy, you have to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it's almost like as a viewer, you're putting yourself in the shoes of what it would be like if you were in the audience. Like, it's not even. It's like a twice removed experience in a certain way.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. It's like the shadow on the cave.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Caleb Herron]

It's not the person. It's not being in the room with the candle.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's Right.

[Caleb Herron]

It's almost like you're imagining if you'd seen a show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I love the special. And it's a totally different thing, and you have to appreciate it in a different way. And I couldn't have lucked out harder with everyone who worked on it. I really think I got to success or flop. I really got to have my fingerprints on it, and I'm proud of it. But I really, really, really feel that if people, like, stand up, the best thing they can do is go see it in the room. Because the taping will never be the same.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's why I listen to specials. I watch them because it's one degree of, like, you can imagine you're there versus watching every frame of it and just going like, oh, okay, I'm here. And this is not as good as actually it would be.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. How did you feel the first time you watched one of your standup specials before it came out?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I find it to be devastating.

[Caleb Herron]

Thank God. Thank you for saying that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Always the Beatles. No, it's awful.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, thank God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You bought a business suit when you were 15. I have a lot of questions about this. Okay. What did you think the plan was like? You literally, in your special, you say it, but I'm like, what else? What was step one? What was step two?

[Caleb Herron]

I really. There was a legitimate need for the business suit in the sense that I was going to these student conferences. I was a student officer. I was locally, then regionally, then than state, than nationally elected officer in a family values organization.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Caleb Herron]

When I was in high school, yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is that religious?

[Caleb Herron]

Well, it's. It's that thing. It's that thing where, like, they can't say it, you know, but it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because it's like government sanctioned or something.

[Caleb Herron]

Technically. I mean, it's in the school. It's like a school organization. So the thing is, like, we love family, you know, but it's like only one kind. You know, it's very, like, specific, but it's only one guy. There were people of other faiths and it. It felt very Christian. But, yeah, I was. I was in that. And so I was running for office in that. I. I just. We grew. I grew up very poor. And so I think anything I could do when I was a teenager to, like, distance myself from the idea that I was going to remain poor or be like, the people where I'm from.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Caleb Herron]

Which thank God I have worked on because that's such a nasty idea. But the idea that I was going to remain poor and stay in my Hometown. Anything I could do to distance from that. So the suit was my, like. Like, I got a suit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Guys who wear suits are, like, a pretty big deal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Totally.

[Caleb Herron]

And I. I really.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I thought.

[Caleb Herron]

I think that there's part of it, probably on a subconscious level when I think back on it, that's like, I was fat, closeted poor. Like, I wasn't like, one of the thin, rich, hot kids.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Caleb Herron]

And so I'm like, what I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

From High School Musical.

[Caleb Herron]

From High School Musical. Ever heard of them? The thin, rich, hot kids? Number one, number two, number three, number four in the cast. But, yeah, I was like, what I can do is be really smart and I can be really accomplished. And accomplishments were my distancing tool from these other things that were not good about me. And suit was part of that. Looked the part. Suit was part of it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And my mom was certainly like, you got it. You got the suit. She got me the suit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's nice.

[Caleb Herron]

I mean, my mom is way cooler than me and always has been. And so I think that when I was in high school, she must have been like, it's tough that I'm raising a nerd, but I guess if he needs the suit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Working it out is brought to you by Helix. Gotta love Helix, one of our original sponsors. I've had my Helix mattress for five years and counting. Still as comfortable as the very first time I slept on it. As you know, I obsess about sleep. I think about it a lot. I've got a sleepwalking disorder, although in pretty good shape these days, and I get a great night's sleep on the Helix mattress. Here's a few things I love about my Helix mattress. It shows up in a box. I've talked about this before. Getting a mattress into your house or your apartment is a huge pain. It is a very heavy item. In this case, it shows up in a box. You open the box, boom, you got a mattress. Let's talk about pillows. Helix makes eight different types of pillows. There's a classic dream pillow. They have cooling pillows, latex, a side sleeper knee pillow. Come on. Their pillow game is so strong. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com burbigS for 20% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name Working it out after checkout so they know that we sent you helixsleep.com burbigs support for working it out comes from Quince. As the weather cools, it's time to put away all the warm weather clothes I got from Quince and start layering up. Quince has a fantastic fall collection. I love the Mongolian cashmere sweater. It's just a personal favorite. It's a perfect fall clothing item. The right feel, the right temperature for crisp fall days. That runs about 60 bucks. I'm happy knowing it's money well spent because the clothes last. I know I'll be rocking this cashmere sweater next fall and the fall after that and for years to come. Their fall collection also includes a suede tracker jacket, wool blazers and more. Really love this site. It's great layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.comforbigs for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available also in Canada. For our Canadian listeners, that's Q-I-N-C-E.com free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comigs okay, this is a slow round.

[Caleb Herron]

Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Pretty jealous of.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, I've seen you ask people this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I really, I've thought about. I've actually, it's funny because since we've. It's been a while since.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't block me.

[Caleb Herron]

Block you?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't block me.

[Caleb Herron]

What do you mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're talking about the question, but you're not answering.

[Caleb Herron]

No, I want to say. I want to say.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Caleb Herron]

I want to say that I've really. I've turned over people's answers on this and I've thought about my own several times in the shower over the past couple weeks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Caleb Herron]

And I didn't land on one definitively before I came in here. But I want to say I think it's really sweet when someone like, I think, like Bob Odenkirk said, like people whose kids are still young. How convenient.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Bob.

[Caleb Herron]

I love that. That's so sweet. What a sweet, perfect answer. I know. But I'm like, I watched it and I was like, I love Bob. I'm a huge fan of his. I know him a little bit. And I'm like, I just am like, oh, I want to say something. I want to say something. That feels not safe, though. That feels so like. Of course. That's a beautiful answer.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So who's the person you thought of? But you didn't say who I thought of.

[Caleb Herron]

That I was jealous, but I didn't say it didn't immediately come to mind. And I'm trying to. That's what I want to think about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who is your. Don't think twice person. Like the, the first person to make it in your group, or was it you?

[Caleb Herron]

Unfortunately. I'm so sorry it was me. But who am I jealous of? I'm not dodging it, and I want to get it. Who am I jealous of? I would say, I will say in a blanket way, all of my musician friends. And I will say very specifically, my friend Katie Crutchfield, who is a musician who performs as Waxahachie. She, I think, has such a wonderful grasp on creativity and having a huge career moment and making beautiful, wonderful, specific art, but also living such a wonderful private life and maintaining mystery and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I love her music. I don't know a thing about her.

[Caleb Herron]

She is. I mean, I could really cry talking about her. She's one of my favorite people on the whole earth. And I just think. I really think she has so many things figured out. She's such a tremendous friend, and I'm often very jealous of her ability to step back from situations and see it. I don't kind of for what it is. Like, she, it seems like she sees the cards laid out in a way that sometimes I'm so in it that I feel like I'm among the cards. Cards. And I'm, I'm jealous of. I'm just jealous. She gets to go away and make albums and put out music, and I'm jealous of the whole thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like I'm among the cards, too.

[Caleb Herron]

You feel like you're in the cards?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I like that analogy. Do you know what I mean? The cards. And you're not standing back and looking at the cards. It's like. Yeah, I know. I relate to that.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. I'm down there being shuffled around with them sometimes. But then you go to. Sometimes you talk to a friend like that, and you're like, oh, they've really got it laid out. They can see where this goes and doesn't go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Caleb Herron]

Who are you jealous of?

[Mike Birbiglia]

We'll cut it.

[Caleb Herron]

Will we?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm trying to think. You know, honestly, I, I don't. I, I used to be. I wrote that movie when I was very jealous of people.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then that movie weirdly cured me of this jealousy.

[Caleb Herron]

Wow. Don't block me. Don't block me. But right now you're talking about the question. We can cut it if you really. Mabel, I wish you wouldn't say that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I, I, I, I'm, I'm jealous of people who have balanced energy.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Name one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[Caleb Herron]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know. I. I don't know who those people are.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's like I go through my day feeling out of control of my own energy.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it drives me crazy.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm just like. Like, I'll be going along, doing something, and then all of a sudden, zero, I'm at zero in the tank out of 10. And then for a run, I'll be at 10 or whatever. And that's what you see on stage.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, that's what.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When people come see me, and then afterwards, if they come up to me in the street, they're like, basically, like, how come you're not a 10?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm like, dude, I put everything in my day.

[Caleb Herron]

It's crazy. I got to 10. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I got into 10. I got to 10 on stage.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I can't do it in life.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so I, I. I think I can typically get myself to between 5 and 7 for most of the day, or 3 and 7 most of the day.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What drives me crazy is when I'm, like, stuck between zero and two.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'm just like. You know what I mean?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so I'm jealous of people who seem seemingly are able to have stable energy all the time.

[Caleb Herron]

That's the secret, though, is everything is seemingly. Yeah, that's the thing. I. Everything is seemingly. Who fucking knows?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. No, you're right.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, you. You've. I really. You. You're a very, very, very good interviewer for a lot of reasons, but you've made it very hard for me to ask questions during this interview. You have. It's very. You. You do. This all has a cadence of. It was very. There have been multiple times that I've been like, I want to get a question into Mike because I'm curious. And then you. It's just almost impossible. Sounds like by design.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks. Yeah, it is by design.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But that's really nice. Compliment the. We'll cut it. What do you daydream about?

[Caleb Herron]

Peace.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Same brother, living God, just daydreaming about peace all the time.

[Caleb Herron]

I daydream about these two guys daydreaming.

[Mike Birbiglia]

About the mountains all day, every day.

[Caleb Herron]

Like, playing, like, my friends. All my friends being free to drop by my little house in the mountains all the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Dude, we're gonna. You and me, we're gonna be a banjo duo in the mountains.

[Caleb Herron]

The winner. Never do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's gonna be me, you, Waxahachie. Yeah. We'll invite the mountain goats. Yes.

[Caleb Herron]

I mean, God, this sounds amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, this is great.

[Caleb Herron]

Cooking fucking dinners.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

You ever see, like, pictures of, like, a big, long outdoor table under some trees in the autumn?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And you go, I need to sit there with 20 of my friends and eat dinner? Of course. I think about this every minute of every day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's something you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now?

[Caleb Herron]

Ten years ago, there's two things that come to mind. The first thing that comes to mind is probably just that I'm a person who's incapable of being truly happy. That was a belief that I had at that age in my life that I thank God, disabused myself of. And, yeah, I think that the issue that I was having at the time was that I viewed happy as a type of person and not a state of emotion. And I was like, oh, I'm not one of the happy people. And that's actually just not what that. That's not even how that is. That's not what that can be. That's not a. It's not a type of person. There are happy people are sometimes sad, and sad people are sometimes happy. And there's not. It's not a type of person. It's a thing that you feel. So that's one thing. And then the other thing that came to mind immediately that kind of made me giggle was just, everyone who disagrees with me is bad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Caleb Herron]

I really was in that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Amen.

[Caleb Herron]

I really was in that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Amen.

[Caleb Herron]

I was in that in a tough way. I was like a really antagonistic atheist. I was a really intense. Like, if you don't. If you don't vote, like, I do, fuck you. You know, I was really like, everything that everyone is kind of having cultural backlash about right now is based off of the way me and my friends were behaving.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was you guys.

[Caleb Herron]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It started with you guys firmly a part of it. How'd you get past that? Because I think that that's fundamentally one of the most important things that we can do as. As fellow citizens to one another.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because people. They do not walk in each other's shoes.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You cannot know what someone. What someone went through to arrive where they arrived.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You cannot know.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's like, how did you get there? Like, if you're. If someone's listening to this and they go, oh, my God, that's what I'm like, what would your. Maybe your advice for them?

[Caleb Herron]

I think. I think that it was based in fear, that it was like, I really. I'm so Scared that I'm not going to be one of the good people, that I'm not gonna be a good person, that I'm gonna be, particularly as, like, a white guy from a small town in Missouri. I was so scared that I was not gonna be one of the good people and that any aberrance from perfection, especially politically, would make me part of it, is an insecurity about where I'm from. But being from rural Missouri and needing to deal with my own misinformed feelings about what that means and what it means to be from a place like that that I had a lot of ideas about, like, well, because I'm not comfortable being here as a gay person. That means that this place is ignorant and bad. And that's not true. There are plenty of very intelligent, lovely, warm, empathetic people that live where I'm from. But I needed to live a little bit of life and get away for a little bit to I think, fully know that. But this fear. There is no such thing as a perfect person, and there's no such thing as, like, perfect politics. The best thing you can do is just genuinely worry about other people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I think a lot of that, like, everyone who doesn't agree with me identically, fuck you. A lot of that thing is fear that if you don't feel that way, that you're complicit in bad and evil, that if you're not punishing, well, it's really a desire for punishment. We love punishment as a society. And I still feel that creep into my life and from time to time in different ways, wanting to, you know, withhold communication or warmth from a friend who hasn't texted me back quickly enough or just the idea of punishment and maybe making wanting subconsciously even people to pay is a big thing for us culturally. We have a lot of cops inside of us. And, yeah, I think I would just tell someone, if you're someone who's in that that's okay. It's a totally understandable way to feel in the world we're living in. But I do not think it's the correct way to feel. I think it's really counterproductive. It's likely not serving you and it's certainly not serving other people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

And it actually doesn't make the lives of anybody having a hard time better for you to be an asshole.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Amen.

[Caleb Herron]

And I would just. Yeah, I think that's probably it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well said. You know, well stated.

[Caleb Herron]

We do what we can.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you think of a time you were so scared that you ran away physically? Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, my God. Oh, I want to throw up. Okay. This summer, my boyfriend and I had gone. I was filming a movie upstate, and I was so lonely and bored. I love everyone working on the film. They're all friends. But there are often days that I wasn't working that they were, and I was like, please come up here. And so we got a house for the weekend and had a pool, which I was so excited about because I wanted to swim. And we went out there and. Oh, okay. And so we. We get to the house, put our bags down immediately, put on our swim trunks, and are like, let's go swim. I couldn't wait to swim. And I hadn't gotten a tattoo this summer, which I sometimes do, which ruins my swimming. It was like, swim time. We go get in the pool, and. And we. I'm like. I'm, like, standing in the deep end of the pool, and I feel something under my foot, and I. It feels like a stick. And so I'm like, oh, okay. So I grab it with my toes and pull it. Pull it up to my hand, and it's like a mossy, like, gross stick. And I'm like, ew. And so I take the stick and I throw it out of the pool, and I feel another thing with my toes, and I'm like, fuck, I'm gonna be cleaning this thing out with my toes the whole time. So then I grab. It's another mossy stick. So it's a second mossy stick. I've grabbed my toes, put it in my hand, thrown it, feel a third thing with my toes. Like, perfect. Like, one beat, two beat, three beat. I feel it with my toes, and I'm like, oh, that's so much. Much softer than the stick. But it's probably just like a. A dish rag or something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a dish rag, of course.

[Caleb Herron]

And so I grab it with my toes, and I bring it up to my hand, same as the stick. And then I pull my hand up out of the water, and it's a dead rat. Oh, gross. Sorry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. It's so gross. In my hand. In my hand. That is.

[Caleb Herron]

No. And I picked up a waterlogged dead.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The rat was in your hand?

[Caleb Herron]

From my toe to my hand. And I. Oh, my God. And it was. By the way, my face is this close to the water, so the rat is right here. And I'm not exaggerating. It's like this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Caleb Herron]

And it's so much softer than you can imagine because of all the water and so I go. I go, ha. I throw it out of the pool. It hits the fence, slides down, and I turn to my boyfriend and I was like, I need to be alone for a while. I walk directly out of the pool, don't grab any of my stuff. Stuff. Go into the house, walk into the first shower I can find. Hadn't even looked around the house yet. First shower I can find. Strip out of my bathing suit, throw it in the sink, turn on the hot water in the sink and let it run. Get in the shower and take the hot, like the hottest, scratchiest. The whole time. I'm dry heaving.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's nothing you can do.

[Caleb Herron]

Hottest dry heaving shower. Hold on. Dry, hot, steamy, burning my skin. Shower.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sickening.

[Caleb Herron]

And then I get out and I just. Like, I wasn't the same the rest of the day. Day. And I still.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You'll never be the same again.

[Caleb Herron]

No, I'm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You will never be clean from that event.

[Caleb Herron]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's nothing you can do. There's no amount of showers.

[Caleb Herron]

Thank you for saying this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's no amount of showers you can take that will take away what happened.

[Caleb Herron]

This is my fear. And I want to thank you for saying it. And that's so obviously hard to hear. And I know that you're right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean it out of love.

[Caleb Herron]

I know. And it hurts. It hurts Be loved by you. Sometimes in this moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Caleb Herron]

Rat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Rat in toes. Toe grabs. Rat. Foot to hand. Rat. Close to face.

[Caleb Herron]

Close to face.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Close to face.

[Caleb Herron]

Close to face. Rat. Oh, my God. Throw it. I, I, I. Sometimes when there's a moment of quiet, I, I start dry heaving before realizing that I'm remembering it. That is so gross. I'm not kidding when I tell. It's not like a. I'm not doing an affect for you or doing this for the cameras. I want to tell you that I feel really sick right now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm so sorry.

[Caleb Herron]

Remember, do you need water? No. In the way of, like, my tummy feels upside down. Like, I can't believe that happened to me. I'm a good person, right? No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No. You didn't do anything wrong.

[Caleb Herron]

It sucks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You didn't.

[Caleb Herron]

Caleb sucks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You didn't do anything wrong.

[Caleb Herron]

Rat in hand.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what? Here's a positive way of looking at it. You're a man of the earth.

[Caleb Herron]

That. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And rats are living in the earth.

[Caleb Herron]

That's a beautiful perspective that I won't access. And I want to thank you for bringing it to light. Oh, I hate it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I believe that Caleb is a man of the Earth. He's the kind of guy, grab a rat with his spread the word, put the. Yeah, he doesn't care. Put the rats up in his face. Sometimes he holds the rat with his.

[Caleb Herron]

Toes and then his hand.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it's part of our mountain existence together.

[Caleb Herron]

It can't be.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe it's chapter one of our mountain story.

[Caleb Herron]

You're planting dead rats around the property for me to find.

[Mike Birbiglia]

If you me some rats, watch a hachi.

[Caleb Herron]

Of course. We're killing the name.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Okay. Here's some jokes.

[Caleb Herron]

Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you have anything that's like half baked or a premise?

[Caleb Herron]

Let me see if I've got anything in here. What's in the notes?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're such a joyous person to talk to, Mike.

[Caleb Herron]

Why would you say that? That's so sweet. Stand up. My stand up note. This is my stand up note.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, nice.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm working through here. That's what I do. It's just easier. I would love to be a notebook guy. It's way cuter. More aesthetic.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Caleb Herron]

I've been. I've been for a long time trying to figure out something with this. This really has disturbed me. And I don't know if I can find a joke here because I'm so enraged about it. I saw a guy in Chicago. We were there. We were playing the Chicago theater. I watch a guy finish a vape. Already humiliating. He finishes a vape in public. Grown man in front of other people finishes a vape. Looks. I watch him. He goes. He goes. Tosses it into a bed of tulips.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Awful.

[Caleb Herron]

There's a trash can no further than three feet away. The gorgeous Chicago tulips that they plant. Gorgeous bed of tulips. He tosses a disc. Empty vape into it. I really genuinely think if I killed him, I could get off. I think that the jury would side with me if they heard my story. I just think, what is wrong with you?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

There's no purpose in it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I. There's no joke there yet. But it's bothering me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it's a. I think it's a great setup and I think it's like a. A great topic to break open. I think it's like you. What you. I think to make it a full piece, you'd have to think of, like, what you do. Yeah, that is. That's analogous.

[Caleb Herron]

I'd love to. I'd love to find. One thing I was thinking of too, is like, I'd love to think about what I could learn about him that would let me forgive him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's nice.

[Caleb Herron]

Like, what could.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's nice.

[Caleb Herron]

What could he possibly tell me? Like, if I were to get him in an interrogation room and say, I'm either gonna kill you or forgive you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Yes.

[Caleb Herron]

What could he tell me to make that okay?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Like if. Like if he was. He was working at a soup kitchen that morning, nine hours straight. Yeah. And he's like, the one thing I.

[Caleb Herron]

Enjoy is throwing my vape in the tools.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I like to have a vape and then I like to find some area of beauty y. Get rid of that vape there.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Or I was. You know, it'd have to be like, oh, yeah, you don't know this Caleb, but those tulips are actually planted by the Pritzker family. In order to monitor, you know, I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Would need to know.

[Caleb Herron]

That's a good angle. Some kind of anti capitalist. Like, there would need to be some kind of thing that's like, they actually have surveillance devices in those that could be stimpanopticons. Something would need to happen. So crazy for me to let him off.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Like. Right. One of the only ways it would make sense if. Is if this was the first scene in an action film.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then. And then he ducks behind a corner and you follow him. And it's like the backstage of like, Mission Impossible.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, exactly. Correct.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. No, I think that's interesting. Cause, yeah. There are certain pet peeves where when you see someone do something in public. And also it does beg the question, what are they doing in private?

[Caleb Herron]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That guy did the vape thing.

[Caleb Herron]

Crazy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In plain sight.

[Caleb Herron]

In front of me, in front of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You, in front of everybody.

[Caleb Herron]

A member of his beloved community, whether he knows it or not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Absolutely crazy. Yeah. I think, like. And also I would say, like, there's two things, two directions I consider going. One is like, what do you do? That's Possibly someone could perceive you as being that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you do? That through a certain lens, is that.

[Caleb Herron]

I wanted to be mad at him. But then I realized.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Then I realized why. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the other one is just like, if you have an example. If you have three examples like that.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, that's how I always think about things in my notebook is I go, that's what the cards are for. It's like, like, oh, this could go with this, could go with this, could go with this. But I think that, like, that's a great. Like, it's such a vivid example of something that would. That drives me nuts also.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What else do you have? Do you have other.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, sorry, let me think. Let me look. Allow me to look. What else? I'm just looking at my most recent ones.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh.

[Caleb Herron]

I've been thinking about this a lot. I saw a video of, like, eight girls dancing in the kitchen. It's like a TikTok. They're, like, dancing in the kitchen. The girls, they're singing along to a song together, and it's beautiful, really sweet, and I loved it. And I identified it as something that is so beautiful and so slice of life. And the whole reason we're probably here. But then the caption was, how would you even explain this to a man? And I left it going like, men have listened to music that just, to me is like, oh, my God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's, like, so funny.

[Caleb Herron]

It's this bizarre celebration of girlhood that I'm so on board with, and it's like, how would a boy get this? Well, boys have hung out with their friends.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, right, right.

[Caleb Herron]

That's actually not the issue with boyhood.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I just. I can't stop thinking about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, right. It's actually quintessential relatable.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you're saying. Oh, no, no, no. This is the least relatable.

[Caleb Herron]

It might be, by the way, one of the only things men and women can both understand.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Music, dancing, hanging out with your friends. Hanging out with your friends. It's like the most universally relatable, cool thing to do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. They're gatekeeping friendship.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. I just thought it was such a funny whiplash because. Because I also. Often when people say things like that on the Internet, they're not talking about me, actually. They're. They're actually talking about their me. Yes, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They're saying, you.

[Caleb Herron]

They're thinking about you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

So I'm like. But I. I thought. I read that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm offended also, by the way.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, we're both offended, but. Yeah. What do you got?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's good. I. I love that one.

[Caleb Herron]

There's some new stu. You know, there's some stuff in here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is so funny.

[Caleb Herron]

We'll work on the new stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was. When I was starting out in comedy, I was doing a show in West Virginia, and I was opening for this guy, and he goes, you live in New York City? And I go, yeah. And he goes, only time I ever went to New York City, all I saw was the inside of an abortion clinic. And. And. And I. I said, well, you really got to spend a week there to get a feel. You could swing by the Empire State Building and the holidays. They have the tree at Rockefeller Center. The abortion clinics are nice. Oh, that was one of your things already.

[Caleb Herron]

You got that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a joke that, like, I've done a few times on stage, and, like, I kind of don't know what to do with it. You ever have jokes like that where you go, like, oh, it's fun.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a true story.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, it's like, it's this guy open for, like, at this kind of middle of the middle of nowhere kind of place. And I just thought it was such a funny. It was such a funny interaction.

[Caleb Herron]

It's very funny. It's also funny to think about it in terms of like. Like asking him, like, well, which one'd you go to?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

That one's a tourist trap. I gotta. I'll write this. You got another local spot. Yeah, the idea that, like, he went to one of the kind of cheugy ones.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. You.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You went to TGI Abortions. You gotta go. You gotta go to the local.

[Caleb Herron]

You gotta go to Junior's Abortions in Sunset Park.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

No, it's a family joint.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

It made me think of a. I've been trying to find something with this. I saw a huge window cling on the back of a car recently. I remember where I was somewhere in the middle of the country and it just said, abortion ends a life. And I. I was like, it's really hard to tell which side of the thing you're on with that. That's just objective. Yeah. 100%. By the way. That just feels like a very.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sometimes two. Yeah. Hey, hey.

[Caleb Herron]

By the way, hey. Not to be. Not to be dark about it, but abortion ends alive to me was just like, ideally. Yeah, that's. That's the operation.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah, that's what's happening.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. No one has a kid at the end of it. That is what's kind of the goal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're really holding your cards over there.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's do working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? And what we do is we contribute at the show and then we link to them in their. Our show notes.

[Caleb Herron]

Yes, I would love, love, love, love, love. We just did. Actually, I do an Ann for them. We just did it last week. The tenant union, Casey Tenants in Kansas City. Their. Their work. It's a multi. Generational, multiracial working class tenant union in Kansas City. Their whole goal is to secure truly safe, affordable housing for everybody. And they're fighting gentrification and the out of town real estate investors that are trying to buy up our city and run everybody out with by jacking up the prices, which helps no one but them. And they're not even our neighbors. There's tenant unions all over the country. Mine, the one I most passionate about is obviously K. DC tenants. Incredible tenant work going on in New York as well. For anyone who's listening. I truly was in such a hopeless place politically before I got involved with the tenant union. And it reignited my hope that we actually can get something done in this time. And I just. I love it so much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's so great, Caleb. I love it when people have genuine passion in the working out for a cause section for what the organization can do. And it just sounds like a great organization linked to Kansas City, which I can't wait to visit again. And hopefully we can hang out there.

[Caleb Herron]

Come through. You can stay at my house anytime.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that'd be nice.

[Caleb Herron]

Come through.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I didn't mean to invite myself.

[Caleb Herron]

I would love for you to. I'm begging. I love when people come stay with me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It will be the chapter two of our mountain story.

[Caleb Herron]

It's. That's. Yeah. So it starts with the mouse.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep.

[Caleb Herron]

Or the rat. The rat. And then you can stay at the house.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Chapter one. I'll stay your house. Chapter two.

[Caleb Herron]

I'll do something to you at the house. Yeah. I'll do some sort of prank that scares you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, you gotta cut my hair.

[Caleb Herron]

I would love to give you chapter four. I would love to give you a haircut. I'll give you a haircut. I'm not good at it, but I think it'd be fun. You know what I would do if I right now, if we. If you're like, let's go do it right now. I would give a bunch. I would give a bunch more. It's got great texture. I'd give it more texture. And then I dye it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What color?

[Caleb Herron]

I would dye. I would do like a. A bleach blonde base. And then I would give you like leopard prints.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know who'd love that? My daughter. My daughter's 10. She would love if I dyed my hair and did leopard prints.

[Caleb Herron]

I bet she's pretty cool.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cool. Obviously she's very cool.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. So I'm saying this might be. We might be on to something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so are you, Caleb.

[Caleb Herron]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me.

[Caleb Herron]

Working it out, cuz it's not done.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're working it out cuz there's no. That's going to do it for another episode of Working it out. You can follow Caleb on Instagram at Caleb Says Things. You can watch his special Model Comedian on HBO and listen to his podcast Podcast so True. Wherever you get podcasts, you can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel. Subscribe because we're posting more and more videos. We really appreciate it when you subscribe. Check out burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, Jenny and I are doing a Jokes and Poems in New York City coming up soon. Be the first to know about that. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mix by Ben Cruz Cruz supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We've got almost 190 episodes, all free. No paywall. Check them out. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell the guy whose throne is empty vapor into a bed of tulips. Hey man, you may have had a rough day, but before you throw that vape into those tulips, try listening to this podcast. It's called Mike Birbiglia Is Working It Out. It's where Mike Birbiglia talks to other comedians and creatives about the creative process. It's the perfect podcast to listen to on your walk over to the trash can.

[Caleb Herron]

Oof.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Nailed it. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.