← Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
189. Nick Offerman: The Man Behind the Mustache
00:57:08
Mike met Nick Offerman years ago at the Sasquatch! Music Festival in Washington state, which is fitting because Nick is a man of nature, almost as well known for his woodworking as he is for his acting. After examining the Working It Out studio table, Nick tells Mike about what it was like to act as the straight man to Amy Poehler on Parks and Rec, and more recently prep for his drama
Loading summary
Transcript282 lines
- [00:00]
A
We had this guidance counselor in the school and he had this list of like 31 vocations.
- [00:07]
B
Yeah.
- [00:07]
A
And it's literally like lawyer, doctor, scientist.
- [00:11]
B
Yeah, Carpenter.
- [00:12]
A
And I looked down it and I was like, there's nothing in the arts. And I. I said, I think I want to be an actor. And he's like, that's not. That's not. And I said to the guidance counselor, well, then I guess I'll play the sax. I love music.
- [00:27]
B
And.
- [00:27]
A
And he said, now why do you want to do that?
- [00:32]
B
That is the voice of the great Nick Offerman. Holy cow, we got Nick Offerman. This is huge. I have known Nick for many years. We met at the Sasquatch Festival. It was a comedy tent years ago in Washington state. And I was so enamored by him. I'd been a fan of his for many years, but then, such a sweet, sweet person. So funny, so fascinating. You might know him, of course, as Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec. He's a classically trained actor who worked on stage in Chicago for many years. He was recently the star of a new movie called Sovereign, which is excellent. It's very intense. I will warn you. It's. It's based on true story. It's really intense film. He is phenomenal in this film. I mean, this is one of the best performances I've seen in a long, long time. And one of the. One of the more interesting people I've met in show business. Just to give a little background, he's an expert carpenter and woodworker. He has a shop in Los Angeles that he's run all through Parks and Rec and before it and now. And he has a new book out about that called Little Woodchucks, which is a great how to woodworking guide for kids and adults. I have it. It's great. Check that out. We have a great conversation today. Big news on our mailing list. You know how I've been doing this mailing list for actually over 20 years, since I was a door person at the Washington D.C. improv in the late 90s. I've had a mailing list since like 27 years. Something like that. Anyway, I appreciate you being on the mailing list. I put a lot of and effort into the emails I send out. We are adding a small component which is putting in your phone number so that you receive texts. Because often people are just not on their email or their email is insane. And I get sent to spam and people go, oh, I didn't get your email. Even though I'm on Your email list. And so now what I'm doing just to make sure people know when I come to your town, when I'm doing pop up shows, when I'm doing. For example, my wife Jenny and I are doing jokes and poems again at Joe's Pub in New York City. And it's a very intimate venue, 160 seats, last one sold out really quickly. So if you want to be the first to know about that, make sure you're on the mailing list. But then also sign up for text alerts. If you're a New Yorker, sign up for text alerts. And if you're anywhere, just any kind of like I'm talking about doing some shows in the new year in Philadelphia, some like smaller shows. If you sign up for the text alerts, you'll get that first. Head over to Brabiggs.com for all the details on how to sign up for that. And don't forget to sign up for Working It Out Premium available on Apple Podcasts. You just sign up, it's 4.99amonth. You get no ads and then you get bonus episodes and you support the show. You get this recent episode we did where I punch up listeners jokes. It's super fun and funny and fascinating and we're going to do more of those. We're actually going to, we're going to do one soon with Pete Holmes. Very excited about that. Anyway, this is a great talk with Nick Offerman. We talk about his book Little Woodchucks. We talk about his new movie Sovereign. We talk about what it's like to hold your own against the improv tornado that is Amy Poehler on Parks and Rec. Nick even had some thoughts about our very own Working it out studio table. Enjoy my conversation with the great Nick Offerman. Working It. This is your book Little Woodchucks. Did you start as a little woodchuck?
- [04:15]
A
Kind of. Yeah. My, I have three siblings and we, we grew up in this house. In hindsight, this is bananas. Cause I've always taken big swings. Like I, I was in my theater company, the Defiant Theater in Chicago in the 90s. I was the technical director. So I was the guy that was like, yeah, like we'll get a truck. We can. No, I can build a 16 foot tall tricycle. Yeah, we'll get some giant cable, you know. And we did. And looking back on it, my dad who grew up in the and with my mom and farm families near each other in our town, he a farmer, was going to tear down his two story farmhouse like an Andrew WYETH. Farmhouse. And dad got wind of it, and he had two of us at the time. I was five. And he made a deal with this farmer to, like, install. He had to build some cabinets and install them. Maybe $5,000 worth of cabinets or something.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:17]
A
And then dad was allowed to jack up with a company. We'd jack up the house, put it on wheels, drive it three miles down the road, pour it a basement, plopped the house down on it, and that was our house. And he was a school teacher, and mom was a labor and delivery nurse. And just looking back at it, I was like, oh, my dad is like, Fitzcarraldo.
- [05:42]
B
Right. So it was passed down.
- [05:45]
A
Yeah. So I grew up, you know, like, not only loving to use tools and make things like a home, but I had that sense of, like, oh, this is how you lead a family or a community by, like, you move a house sometimes.
- [06:01]
B
It's interesting, like, when I watch your performance in this movie Sovereign, which is so good and so tough. I mean, it's a tough story. But I have to say, like, you know, you and I met a bunch of years ago at Sasquatch Festival and in East Washington and hit it off right away, I feel like. And. And so immediately I was like, oh, I want to have you on the show. But then I watched this movie, and I just had this experience with it where I just. I was taken with your acting being so authentic that I don't know where the script begins and ends. And.
- [06:35]
A
Thank you. That's really nice.
- [06:36]
B
You know, you have some background in, obviously, theater, some improv, certainly on Parks and Rectors.
- [06:42]
A
Improv there was. But I don't. I don't. I'm straight theater.
- [06:45]
B
Straight theater.
- [06:46]
A
Steppenwolf, Shakespeare. Like, I wanted to move to London and, like, you know, work at the RSC or something.
- [06:53]
B
Right, right, right.
- [06:54]
A
And while I was in Chicago, Amy Poehler and Carell and Colbert, like, all the Second City people and improv, Olympic, they were happening. And I knew them, but at the time, we never saw each other. We partied together a little bit, but I was so ignorant. I was. If I had any idea that if I had known that that was a pipeline to snl. Yeah, I would have been all over it because I. I didn't know exactly what I was doing, but I was like, wait, so you make things up in a bar?
- [07:26]
B
That's really funny.
- [07:27]
A
I'm performing works of literature. I'm doing something with my life. And only later, I had no idea that's what that was.
- [07:38]
B
But the Thing that really hit me hard with your performance in Sovereign is sometimes you see someone's performance and you go, oh, they're performing that part, and they're doing a nice job.
- [07:50]
A
Sure.
- [07:51]
B
And then you see what you did, and you just go, I don't. There's no way. He isn't that guy. And I know Nick, so I know he's not that guy. And I'm just wondering what your approach was.
- [08:02]
A
Well, first of all, thank you. That's massive praise, and I really appreciate it. And that's all I ever wanted to do, was have that effect on people with my work, to have them say, oh, fuck, that's the guy from. To somehow transform in a way, you know, that tricks people so that they don't think, oh, it's, you know, this actor that I know doing another role. You know, the first response I have to. That is, I run into the way I pick jobs is the writing moves me in a way that maybe it. Maybe the light goes off from the writing that I'm like, oh, I think I have the potential of having that effect on Mike Birbiglio. If I do this right, and I read it, and I just. It immediately made me think of the January 6th rioters.
- [08:54]
B
Sure.
- [08:56]
A
And with those. And with this conspiracy theory, you know, QAnon, all the people succumbing to misinformation. And it also made me think of people in my hometown who. Who I've known and loved my whole life. There's this one guy who taught me to use a jackhammer when I was, like, 14. And he's this lumberjack guy who's just a really benevolent figure in the town. He's a great Christian guy who's, like, a staunch Trump guy. So he's my. For me, that represents and fed a little bit of conversation, and it's. It comes to an impasse pretty quickly where it's like, I've always loved you. I think you have incredible values. I think you're getting bad information, and that's where it immediately stops. And he says, man, you're actually brainwashed. Like, I'm so sorry you got bad information.
- [09:51]
B
Right.
- [09:53]
A
Because I watch. He's like, I watch journalists on Fox News.
- [09:57]
B
Yeah.
- [09:57]
A
We reach this impasse from, like, I don't know, all I can do. So then I dwell in, well, I still love you, and I still, like, you know, you're part of my hometown, and I still consider you a neighbor. So no matter who you vote for or, you know, I'm not gonna get in an argument with you here on the sidewalk about abortion or gay people. But I still consider us on the same team in terms of like, trying to make a healthy community. And so this reading the script, I just immediately thought of these people getting bad information. Like, I think so many people in a January 6th setting, for example, you know, so many of those people were, when interviewed, thought they were doing something heroic. Like they weren't, you know, they weren't born evil. And I don't think that they're like clan, like cross burning Klansmen or something. I think they're just like, oh, no, we're losing our country, like according to the politicians we listen to. But we have a chance if we go to the capitol today. Like, we can take back our country for America. Like, they thought they were heroic. And when I read this script, what it struck in me was with those people and with this guy, it just. Because the writing was so good and empathetic and humanizing, I just immediately thought with a couple of bad cards in the hand I was dealt, I could easily be this guy. Yeah, Like, I just. And it's because Christian's writing was so beautiful. I was like, shit. This humanizes this guy who's a victim of banks and the governmental institutions that in a predatory way, put their thumbs on the working class around people who don't have good health insurance or, you know, find themselves in debt, facing absolute despair. And then they get these information streams where it's like, are you in despair? Are you having a tough time? And I just felt like it's an inscrutable thing. I'm not a macro thinker, so I didn't have a concise thought about it. It was just like, I feel like I need to do this because it humanizes. Like, there's no point in shaking my fist at sovereign citizens. I'd rather try and understand why they think that way and how we can have a conversation so maybe they don't shoot at people.
- [12:37]
B
Yeah. To give people context. The movie is called Sovereign and it's based on this event where a father and son, without giving anything away, are traveling around the country and the father is kind of speaking to very, very small convention. Motel convention settings of people saying conspiratorial things about the government and how what we don't owe to the government and what the government owes us and the relationship between you and your son, who's played by Jacob Tremblay, who's also in room and was incredible.
- [13:15]
A
Yeah, I mean, we, He. We had a wonderful rapport. He. He's you know, he just turned 18, and he's so talented and good looking that I, you know, that I openly despise him.
- [13:27]
B
Sure.
- [13:27]
A
And. But we. We had a lot of fun together, and we immediately. So we. We loved making each other laugh, especially when things got really dark in the movie. And so. But you do, you know, you sort of. There were days that were really emotional or where we had to be really even violent with each other. And so you just sort of check in and, you know, work through things, like in a theater sensibility of, like, rehearse and talk through. Okay, here's what we can do. Here's how this is gonna feel. Like, is this okay if I put you up against the wall like this so you work it all out safely.
- [14:07]
B
And you do fight choreography. I mean, teach yet?
- [14:10]
A
Yeah, I mean, part of the. Part of the basis of how I became a skilled carpenter was because I went to theater school. And to me, it's miraculous that I got into this theater school at the last second in 87. I was gonna graduate high school in 88. And I told my small town, my sphere, that I think I want to be an actor. And everyone I was in the plays and our little school and stuff, but everybody looked at me and they were like, I don't believe you can do that.
- [14:45]
B
Sure.
- [14:46]
A
I don't think that's done.
- [14:47]
B
Yeah, I don't think that's a thing.
- [14:49]
A
And I said, well. And I played the saxophone at the time, and I loved it. I was like the tenor sax in our jazz band and stuff. And I said, well, I guess then maybe I'll play the sax. And we had this guidance counselor in the school, Mr. Johnson, rest in peace. He looked like a fucking orc. Like he was bald, fat, had this crazy underbite with three teeth, dandruff, like, comb over, stinky. And sitting there smoking in his guidance counselor office. And he had this ditto, like the purple xerox sheet, but it was a ditto, so it was fresh. Did you have those where you could still smell the ink?
- [15:31]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [15:32]
A
And you had this ditto sheet, and it had a list of, like, 31 vocations. That was the guidance counselor. Like, okay, Nick, it's. It's time to pick your vocation.
- [15:42]
B
Yeah.
- [15:43]
A
And it's literally like, lawyer, doctor, scientist.
- [15:46]
B
Yeah, carpenter.
- [15:47]
A
And I looked down it, and I was like, there's nothing in the arts. And I. I said, I think I want to be an actor. And he's like, that's not. That's not. And I said, to the guidance counselor. Well, then I guess a. I'll play the sax. I love music. And he said, now why do you want to do that? And there's a talented family, the Andersons, that were musicians. And the older brother Rick was a great trumpet player that won the state competition or whatever in trumpet. And he said, and he was four or five years older. And he said, well, Rick Anderson went into music and now what's he doing? He's teaching band at like a small Illinois college. Yeah. As though he had become a hooker.
- [16:34]
B
Yeah, yeah. His. That's a bad job.
- [16:37]
A
Why are you. Look, this is crazy. Why are you dissing.
- [16:42]
B
Yeah.
- [16:42]
A
The greatest musician our town's ever produced who went on to do something really noble with his music. So I found out at the last second, just. I took my girlfriend, who was a year older, to a dance audition at the University of Illinois. And I was like 16, 17 years old, hanging in the hallway and I met these two theater students. And somehow I wish I, you know, I wish we had shot it because I was like, wait, what? I don't know, they must have said, hey kid, why are you loitering in this hallway? Somehow we struck up a conversation and I found out they said they're theater students. I was like, well, what does that mean? And they said, we, you know, we study acting to do plays. And I said, and then what? And they said, well, you know, we probably will go to Chicago and you can get paid to be in plays in Chicago. And I literally was so ignorant. I had heard of Hollywood, I had heard of Broadway, and those were like, I couldn't afford to do anything outside of Illinois.
- [17:46]
B
Yeah.
- [17:47]
A
And so the fact that I ran into these people that were like, you can. There's a viable living to be made doing plays in Chicago like Guardian Angels an hour away.
- [17:56]
B
Yeah.
- [17:57]
A
So I got into this theater program, miraculously. But then part of the miracle was I got in and they were like, okay, you're terrible.
- [18:09]
B
That's great.
- [18:10]
A
You have no idea what you're doing. And I, you know, and I didn't, I was scared, so I didn't say why did. Then why did you. They only take, it's a conservatory. They only take like 16 a year. Right.
- [18:20]
B
So how do I even get in?
- [18:22]
A
Yeah. And what I learned is you need a couple guys to carry the good looking people on and off stage like that. You know what I mean? You need a couple of Forest Lords, as you like it. But so while I was waiting to like get cast in plays in this great facility, they had a beautiful wood shop, and everybody had to take wood shop and costume shop and lighting. So I was in. In the wood shop, and, you know, sure enough, they were like, can anybody hammer a nail? And I had been framing houses and stuff, and I was like. I did a few things with tools, and they. It was like I shat out a bowling ball. The whole place was like, how. How can you do this?
- [19:02]
B
Yeah.
- [19:03]
A
And the guy running the shop, Ken Egan, who I'm still friends with, said, you know, we'll pay you wages. Like, you want to come work in here?
- [19:11]
B
Yeah.
- [19:12]
A
I was like, fuck, yeah. Like. And so for years, it was valuable to my friends who were acting and writing and directing, and they would give me little parts, but I would build the set.
- [19:26]
B
Yeah.
- [19:27]
A
And a couple of us were fight choreographers, and I learned prosthetic makeup. So I just loved making theater. And there were these other ways that I could be involved and make it with my friends. And we moved to Chicago and started the Defiant Theater, and I had my own scenery shop and a warehouse.
- [19:46]
B
Yeah.
- [19:47]
A
And I thought I was going to be a scenery carpenter, and I loved it. Chicago's an incredible theater community. But then, like, slowly but surely, naturalism began to occur to me. And. And it. When I was, like, 25 or 26, all of a sudden I got. Suddenly, I started getting cast in plays in the parts that I wanted, and that began this matriculation that is still ongoing of, like, you know, trying to do perfect acting, which, of course, is impossible. But so, inadvertently, I became really good at carpentry while I was trying to learn how to act. And. And when I got to la, I still, you know, was still trying to get jobs. And so meanwhile, I switched to fine furniture. And so it just has always been a really fruitful part of my life, even though it's not what I set out to do.
- [20:46]
B
So. So where do the idea for little woodchucks come from? Is you. I feel like it's. It's. It's fitting with something you said in one of your comedy specials where you're giving advice about people. Kids essentially, should just get off of technology. That was one of the things you gave as advice.
- [21:02]
A
Well, sure. So this is my sixth book. The third book is a proper woodworking textbook, and it's also really fun. And, you know, the thing about these are, like, this is ostensibly to make things with and for kids, it's for families to make things together, but it's really for anybody, like, if you're an adult who wants to learn woodworking this book is so fucking fun.
- [21:26]
B
Yeah.
- [21:27]
A
It's got so much humor. And if you don't know how to use tools that doesn't matter what age you are, you can you have this book to delightfully teach you how to use them.
- [21:36]
B
Yeah.
- [21:38]
A
So the first book, there's this great woman who's my co author. Her name is Lee Buchanan. She ran my wood shop for 10 years, starting with Parks and Rec. That's when I was like, okay, if I want my shop to continue, I'm going to need employees.
- [21:53]
B
Yeah.
- [21:54]
A
So I found this superhero named Lee and she ran it for 10 years. And we always talked about doing stuff with and for kids. We talked about doing this book for a long time. And so finally we, we came up with this list of projects and it just seemed really timely because all of a sudden, like when AI sort of came so prevalently into the conversation a couple years ago. And also the way Elon, like, you know, I feel like there are still people who don't think he's a total douche because of, you know, even his supposed achievements in science and industry, I think are all. I feel like they've all been debunked where people are like, well, actually he's just a great businessman and frontman, but he actually doesn't invent anything. I'm sure he's a clever thinker, but his whole sensibility of. And I think the world is going along with this where they're like, climate change doesn't matter. We don't need to worry about our natural resources because if we ruin this planet, which we're okay with, we'll throw it away and go to Mars. Like, Elon is setting us up so let's just play some fucking video games. Like, chill, man. And it ties into this, this morality of like that, that when AI showed up, it was like, when certain ideologies and politics show up. And I'm like, well, obviously there's no way we're going to elect a rapist. I mean, what, you know, what are we. And then we elect a rapist or whatever we, you know, whatever missteps we make as a people. And I'm like, oh, right, we're not all reading progressive.
- [23:45]
B
Sure.
- [23:46]
A
Information. Like everyone is not on the same page. And so when AI showed up, I was like, well, clearly we love being human.
- [23:54]
B
We love, clearly we love being human.
- [23:56]
A
We love having.
- [23:57]
B
Yeah, we're gonna have some guardrails on this. Yeah, no, of course.
- [24:01]
A
Suddenly everyone's like, this is great. I never have to think again.
- [24:05]
B
Yeah, it's so strange.
- [24:06]
A
And I love that movie. One of. For me, one of the most powerful pieces of media in our. In our time is that movie wall E, where the fat baby people are floating around and they've forgotten. They've made their lives so comfortable. They've forgotten how to fly the spaceship.
- [24:23]
B
Yeah.
- [24:23]
A
Or how to live. And so when the shit goes down, they're like, we don't know how to use a tool. You know? And so having made my happy, successful life by using tools and by making things with my family and just living in a human. Outside of virtual spaces, you know, And I write books. I was like, all right, we need to urge families and people to make things together and to remember how to make things with our hands.
- [24:57]
B
Yeah.
- [24:57]
A
Obviously, all these conversations require nuance. Technology is incredible. Obviously. Like, it does a lot of good. All of these inventions do a lot of good.
- [25:08]
B
Yeah.
- [25:09]
A
But they're also so addictive. I mean, I love television, but I have to treat it like a dessert, because if I treat it like an entree in my life, then I become fat and unhealthy and slothful and so forth. And I feel the same way about all these things. Video games are obviously a total gas, but I avoid them completely because I know I'll lose my life to them. I know I'm a monkey enough that they'll tap it. They'll get their hooks in me and be like, megan, I have to talk to you. I haven't slept for 17 days. There's a kid in Thailand that I'm gonna fucking destroy in this game. And so everything I do with sort of. That touches on ideology and these morals, they're really just me talking to myself through the world, where I'm like, you guys, Nick, stay out of the bar. Don't become an alcoholic. Everybody, right?
- [26:12]
B
Everybody. That's great. When you're preparing for a comedic role like you did in Parks and Rec versus probably a more dramatic role in the Last of Us, is the preparation different when you're acting?
- [26:28]
A
I mean, not really. Megan and I talk about this a lot because we love working on all kinds of different tones. Comedy, good comedy is generally, I think, harder than good drama because it's the same stakes generally, but the stakes are higher, which is what takes it a little too. Makes it funny because it's a little over the top. So it's even more dead serious, which allows you to fly into a panic or whatever it is that causes the comedy. Comedy usually moves more quickly, shoots faster, generally. And so the prep Feels a little more throwaway. Like, for some of the dramatic work I've been doing, you have a little more time, I feel, to marinate in it. And so I feel like I have a better shot at doing good, realistic work. Cause it's moving a little more slowly. And, you know, unlike Parks and Rec, it moves so quickly. But they created such a comfortable, supportive atmosphere that even though maybe you're just barely hanging on and getting your scenes especially. Amy was learning so many pages a day. Yeah. But of course, she's such a dynamo where something I'm not great at is if she had a monologue and she. She. And she got through three quarters of it perfectly. If she started missing, she could still just improvise.
- [28:11]
B
Right.
- [28:11]
A
And it would probably turn out better anyway.
- [28:14]
B
Where's that superpower?
- [28:16]
A
Yeah. And I. I'd be more like. I'd have, you know, I don't have the. I can improvise with them, but I don't have the power they have of, like, walking into a black stage and being like, how many pancakes? Yeah. You know, and, like, immediately creating a world where I'm like, did you Syrup, check out my balls?
- [28:43]
B
You know, did you see. Did you break in scenes when you were on that show? I feel like it would be so hard not to with that cast.
- [28:51]
A
I enjoyed. I still enjoy not breaking. I'm mostly known for keeping a straight face and deadpan because that was my thing from the get go. When I first read with Amy to finally get the job, it was immediately apparent that the gag, the key to success was, you know, it's like Amy's like a Robin Williams or something where she's just a tornado. So she's doing Leslie Knope across a desk from me. And I was like, oh, I have no fucking chance unless I just shut the fuck up.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [29:33]
A
And let her be really funny. And I provide a counterpoint of withstanding the tornado. And then maybe at the end just say no or do something in a counterpuntal way.
- [29:47]
B
Yeah.
- [29:48]
A
And that instinct was right, thankfully. And they were like. And the funny thing is, they're like, what a collaboration.
- [30:04]
B
Working it out is. Brought to you by Helix. Gotta love Helix. One of our original sponsors. I've had my Helix mattress for five years and counting. Still as comfortable as the very first time I slept on it, as you know, I obsess about sleep. I think about it a lot. I've got a sleepwalking disorder, although in pretty good shape these days. And I get a great night's sleep on the Helix Mattress. Here's a few things I love about my Helix mattress. It shows up in a box. I've talked about this before. Getting a mattress into your house or your apartment is a huge pain. It is a very heavy item. In this case, it shows up in a box. You open the box, boom, you got a mattress. Let's talk about pillows. Helix makes eight different types of pillows. There's a classic dream pillow. They have cooling pillows, latex, a side sleeper knee pillow. Come on. Their pillow game is so strong. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com burbigS for 20% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name Working it Out after checkout so they know that we sent you helixsleep.com burbigs support for working it out comes from Quince. As the weather cools, it's time to put away all the warm weather clothes I got from Quint and start layering up. Quint has a fantastic fall collection. I love the Mongolian cashmere sweater. It's just a personal favorite. It's a perfect fall clothing item. The right feel, the right temperature for crisp fall days. That runs about 60 bucks. I'm happy knowing it's money well spent because the clothes last. I know I'll be rocking this cashmere sweater next fall and the fall after that and for years to come. Their fall collection also includes a suede tracker jacket, wool blazers, and more. Really love this site. It's great. Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quint.com for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available also in Canada for our Canadian listeners, that's q-I n c.com b I g s free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com brigs have you ever had, like built furniture for someone and it was a debacle?
- [32:27]
A
No, the. I mean, the thing that you run into with solid wood construction is that the wood behaves like what's beautiful about woodworking is it's this organic product.
- [32:38]
B
Yeah.
- [32:38]
A
And you have to understand that with humidity, it expands and contracts. And so it's like, you know how doors stick when they get heated.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah.
- [32:47]
A
So you're dealing with that, but like with a table or a chest of drawers. And so all the techniques in woodworking are designed to accommodate. That would move.
- [32:56]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [32:57]
A
It's really cool. So like a tabletop, for example. This tabletop. If this was Solid wood would move in this direction seasonally because the grain are like long strands of spaghetti. And when spaghetti gets wet, it doesn't get longer as much as it gets fatter.
- [33:14]
B
That's interesting.
- [33:15]
A
And so if you can imagine this tabletop getting fatter and skinnier sitting on this structure, the fasteners will be like a screw, say, with a washer that has a slot so that when it moves, the fasteners are tight, but they can slide.
- [33:34]
B
Interesting.
- [33:34]
A
So a lot of woodworking. And so when you are making things for somebody's home cabinet doors, there are things that you make that the wood can behave and really fuck you.
- [33:45]
B
Does your wood shop, is it in Los Angeles? You still have it?
- [33:49]
A
Yeah.
- [33:50]
B
So you did all through Parks and Rec, and you still have it?
- [33:52]
A
Yeah.
- [33:54]
B
What kind of. Do you make furniture and sell furniture?
- [33:57]
A
Yeah, it's. It's offermanwoodshop.com.
- [33:59]
B
Wow.
- [34:00]
A
And we have four employees right now. We've had a wonderful crop of woodworkers come through over the years. The shop is over 20 years old.
- [34:13]
B
Fascinating.
- [34:14]
A
And we do commission pieces, so we do, like really high end, you know, dining tables.
- [34:21]
B
Like, could you do a table here that might be better for us than this table?
- [34:27]
A
Well, it depends.
- [34:29]
B
It's obviously subjective, but it is.
- [34:33]
A
You know, this is a nice. This is solid wood, like this drawer construction. This is a nice piece when it comes to like the sort of world of Crate and Barrel or those kind of stores. You know, if we made you a table that. That was in this. In this wheelhouse. Unfortunately, the bummer about that is it's way more expensive because of course it would be of paying people.
- [35:01]
B
It would be a splurge for sure.
- [35:03]
A
But it would be the, the advantage would be that your great grandchildren.
- [35:08]
B
Right. Could use it, could have it. Yeah.
- [35:11]
A
And it, like, it's solid wood. And so it has a different.
- [35:16]
B
Right. A different feel.
- [35:17]
A
It has a different feel.
- [35:18]
B
Yeah. You feel more grounded. And could you ship it across the country?
- [35:22]
A
Sure.
- [35:23]
B
I would like to discuss that after the podcast because I think that would be beautiful.
- [35:30]
A
I mean, that's our bag. Like, my favorite thing to make the bread and butter that comes from my shop is a table made of one slab of a tree. And the most popular is walnut, which, this is. This, this is eastern black walnut, which is gorgeous. We also get California claro walnut.
- [35:51]
B
Yeah.
- [35:52]
A
Which has some purple and green. It's. It's even more groovy. Oh, that's nice and beautiful. But it's one slice of a tree.
- [36:00]
B
Oh, wow.
- [36:01]
A
So one. So it Has a thickness and it's lush. It's like a. It's like a big slab of fudge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it just. It's just, you know, it's a very charismatic place to set your team.
- [36:14]
B
Yeah. It's a much less synthetic universe.
- [36:16]
A
Yeah. Which, you know, there's something to be said for. It's like, we're not purists. This, you know, this is. This is very practical. And this table feels good.
- [36:25]
B
Right.
- [36:27]
A
And it's, you know, this is in a utility serving versus, you know, like an heirloom piece that you make your dining table or what have you.
- [36:39]
B
All right, this is the slow round. What are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you?
- [36:45]
A
I love that you have a slow road, because I was just saying yesterday, what a dumb thing. I hate rapid fire questions because they're like, what's your favorite junk food? And what do you say? Doritos. Who? Like, what. What has that achieved?
- [37:00]
B
Right. What does that achieve? Yeah. That's not charming. Take your time.
- [37:04]
A
So what was the question?
- [37:05]
B
What are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you?
- [37:08]
A
Favorite and least favorite thing about me? I think favorite is I think I have a very pleasant disposition.
- [37:18]
B
You do? I woke up in the middle of the night and I go. And usually I wake up in the middle of the night and go, oh, my God, this person is coming to my studio. I'm so nervous. And with you. And I wake up in the middle of the night, Nick Offerman's coming to the studio. That should be nice, because you have a way about you that is very calming disposition.
- [37:38]
A
Well, I come by it honest. Like, I have to blame my mom and dad. Like, we were brought up with a sensibility of like. And maybe because I have three siblings, but there's an idea. And we were never wealthy, so there's a sense of like. And mom and dad did such a great job, though, of making us feel like our lives were rich as hell on a teacher's salary. So I've always had this sense of, like, is everybody good? Does every. Anybody need a beer or whatever?
- [38:11]
B
Yeah.
- [38:13]
A
And so people do like me on productions because I go out of my way to make sure everybody's having a good time.
- [38:23]
B
Yeah.
- [38:23]
A
You know, if the crew's not having a good time, I try to do something about it because.
- [38:28]
B
Nice.
- [38:29]
A
Well, we're all making something together.
- [38:30]
B
Absolutely.
- [38:31]
A
And I'm on the. You know, I'm one of the faces of it. And I hate. I would hate. You know, we all have worked with people where the crew goes home and they're like, what a jerk.
- [38:42]
B
No, I know. I think I, I've heard this concept in movie and TV sets before, which is the idea of, of having a team captain who isn't the director. And usually it's an actor on Don't Think Twice. It was Keegan, and he just has this extra energy for everyone else on the crew.
- [39:00]
A
That's. I mean, it's the greatest. And Keegan is a great choice for that.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah.
- [39:05]
A
That guy's a, A walking ball of sunshine.
- [39:08]
B
Yeah.
- [39:09]
A
So I, So I think that, you know, I think that's what people like about me, is that I, I, it's hard to find me in a bad mood because what's the point?
- [39:20]
B
Right? What's the point? Sure.
- [39:22]
A
Even when things are shitty, I, I say, man, this sucks. And then I, Then we find something to laugh about. Sure. While we suffer through this crappy situation. What people don't like about me, that's. I, I think it's. I, I think that I ask a lot of people. I'm. I think my vice. Here's what people don't like about me. My vice is that I get to do jobs that I love way more than I ever dreamed. Like when I was Mr. Megan Mullally and, like, doing a guest spot on the West Wing and I had a, A fledgling wood shop, I couldn't believe how my life had peaked. I was like, fucking. This is beyond my wildest dreams. And then Parks and Rec happened, and now, whatever. 16 years of way crazy. Just, I mean, so the jobs, I get to do. Acting jobs. Then I started touring as a humorist, and I never dreamed I would play songs for audiences. And then I started writing books. Yeah. And all of these things I love doing. It's so enjoyable. And so my vice is that I overload myself. I call it assholing myself.
- [40:48]
B
Oh, yeah. That's a good one.
- [40:51]
A
I mean, and Megan especially. I'm sure that's Megan's least favorite thing about me is that I'm like, I already know how packed things are into, like, the middle of next year.
- [41:03]
B
Yeah.
- [41:03]
A
But somebody will call and be like, what about this super fun thing in Scotland for We just need you for seven days.
- [41:11]
B
Yeah.
- [41:11]
A
And I'm like, well, what am I going to do? Say no. You know? Yeah, that's. And so that affects Megan the most. But my family and my w. Like, everybody around me.
- [41:21]
B
Sure.
- [41:22]
A
That's. That's the thing they say to me where they're like, yeah, you. You do Too much stuff.
- [41:27]
B
Who are you jealous of?
- [41:29]
A
Who am I jealous of? George Saunders and Jeff Tweedy spring to mind. We have a wonderful three way sort of bromance. And those two guys, their prolific ability to just shit out gorgeous music and fiction.
- [41:52]
B
And Jeff Tweedy just released so many songs.
- [41:55]
A
A triple.
- [41:56]
B
Yeah, a triple album.
- [41:57]
A
He. I mean, and he sends. We. I'm very lucky. Like, we have this beautiful friendship where he sends stuff to me and George way early on. Like, as he's putting it together, It's. It's wild because he was my favorite. Like, it. It's. He was like my John Lennon.
- [42:15]
B
Yeah.
- [42:15]
A
And then 20 years in, I got to cast him in a. In Parks and Rec, in an episode I was directing.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah.
- [42:22]
A
That's how I met my John Lennon. And now we're in love and we're married. But so those guys, when we do things together, or, you know, right now. And Jeff also writes books. George has a new novel coming out that's super exciting. So we're all, you know, we're always sharing and loving on each other's stuff, and I'm so grateful. I always. They're both a little older than me, so I feel like I'm being allowed to ride in the back of their Trans Am. And they're like, nick, check out this eight track of Frank Zappa or whatever. And I'm like. And so I'm jealous of their prolific talents.
- [43:00]
B
What's something you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now?
- [43:13]
A
Huh? That's a good question. I'm a very stubborn optimist.
- [43:18]
B
How did. Where. How did you arrive at that?
- [43:20]
A
I don't know. I mean, when I interviewed Conan, the ending of that book, Gumption, I was talking to him about, like. And this was like, 2013 or 14 or something. And I asked him something about, you know, do you think the world's going to shit or all the kids are on their phones or whatever it was. And he said, you know, just take a step back. Because Conan, you know, has done such a great job of disguising himself as, like, the literal valedictorian and, like, leading Harvard scholar. And he's like, no, I'm just a dorky, you know, puppet. He's the smartest. He's so, so amazing. And he said, take a step back historically and just look at civilization. It is getting so much better. Yes, it's slow, yes, it's inexorable, but it's still like an iceberg. It's not gonna stop. I mean, it's Easy to think of when we were kids. Things about like gay marriage or the legalization of weed or, you know, there are things.
- [44:25]
B
Yeah. Certainly.
- [44:26]
A
That are powerfully.
- [44:27]
B
World poverty is much less than it was in the 1980s when I was growing up, for example. Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
And so. And so I have a hard time thinking like I'm like, I haven't. I'm trying to think of something I've grown, like cynical about or jaded. I guess. I guess I know in the last few years, I think I used to think, you know, that our business could be more merit based than it is. Yeah. And I think I got spoiled by Mike Schur and working on Parks and Rec. People don't realize that Parks and Recognition was almost always canceled every year. It was not a hit show.
- [45:14]
B
That's so funny.
- [45:15]
A
And part of it was, it was right at the transition from the Nielsen ratings to everyone watching on a DVR or online.
- [45:24]
B
Okay.
- [45:25]
A
And they didn't have a way to track that yet.
- [45:26]
B
Right.
- [45:27]
A
Cause we were like, I think we're popular.
- [45:29]
B
Right. It seems like we're popular.
- [45:31]
A
It's critically acclaimed. But we weren't getting. We were completely ignored by. We never got nominated for awards. It was weird. It was like. It seems like we might be everyone's favorite show or definitely top. You know, we're in the top shows. But we even got canceled one time. Amy. It was like the upfronts, she got on a plane from New York and they were like, it's over. Sorry. And when she landed in la, she. She called her agent or whatever and they were like, it's not over.
- [46:07]
B
Oh, that's hilarious.
- [46:08]
A
Back on. So. But because of Mike Schur and he makes these shows with such good heart.
- [46:15]
B
Yeah.
- [46:15]
A
You know, he. He makes a show that's like an ethics class.
- [46:19]
B
Yeah.
- [46:19]
A
In this day and age. Which is pretty astonishing, I think. I had this idea because in the last few years, I've been involved in five show pitches with great teams of people. Everyone was a slam dunk. And every single one. And now these days you do. It's like this year there are six companies making shows. Amazon, Apple, hbo, Hulu, Netflix. Yeah, Netflix. Peacock. Yeah, that's it. You do those meetings, right. You pitch to those six people and every one of them are like, this is great. You, you. This is amazing. Great idea.
- [46:59]
B
And then. And that doesn't happen.
- [47:00]
A
And then you, on your way out, you're like, do you validate? And Olivia Colman and Robert De Niro are coming in and they're. And they're pitching A show. And all of you, they're like, we love you. Guys like it.
- [47:12]
B
Right?
- [47:13]
A
And. And right.
- [47:14]
B
So it feels like. It's like. It's hard to have optimism in entertainment at the current moment.
- [47:18]
A
Oh, it's. It's crazy the way that. Again, I'm speaking slightly out my ass because the companies are inscrutable by design. They're not telling you your numbers so that they don't have to pay you if you're a hit.
- [47:35]
B
Right. Sure.
- [47:36]
A
Like, you're doing fine.
- [47:37]
B
Yeah.
- [47:38]
A
Severance. Yeah. You're doing okay.
- [47:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [47:41]
A
We'll keep you around.
- [47:42]
B
Yeah.
- [47:43]
A
But so. So you don't know anything. So it seems like they're choosing things by algorithm or something where it's like, do I need a vampire? Do I need. Right.
- [47:53]
B
Right.
- [47:53]
A
What? You know, what is it?
- [48:05]
B
Support for working it out comes from Rula. Look, finding a therapist is hard. Just ask me. I've had two therapists over the many, many years. Finding one that takes your insurance is even harder. And we never talk about this. Sometimes keeping a therapist can be hard. This happens sometimes against all odds. You find a therapist who takes your insurance and then they change offices and they. Or they retire or they die. I mean, that's. Another friend of mine had that happen. That's a whole deal. When your therapist dies, that can happen. Natural causes, you know, or they don't do virtual appointments. All these things happen. But with Rula, you can avoid these problems because Rula is an online therapy platform that partners with a network of over 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find your personalized solution and the right therapist for you based on your needs, preferences, and state requirements. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.com for Biggs to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about Rula. Please support our podcast and let them know that we sent you. That's rula.com r u l a.com per bigs p I r B I G S. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. Support for working it out comes from Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Here's why I said yes to making the switch and getting Premium Wireless for 15 bucks a month. I tour the country. I tour the World. I've been super satisfied with Mint Mobile's coverage. Trust me, I know what it's like to be stranded in a broken down car in the middle of nowhere. I talk about it endlessly. It's not fun. But Mint Mobile runs on The T Mobile 5G network. America's largest 5G network. I used to have a wireless service that shall remain nameless because I thought it was overpriced and didn't provide coverage that I needed. Then I made the switch to Mint Mobile and I love it. Ready to say yes to saying no. Make the switch@mintmobile.com forbigs that's mint mobile.com bigs upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. What is a time where you were caught in a lie?
- [50:34]
A
I mean, that's, that's something. When I was a kid, I. I was a liar. I have such good, such good mom and dad that that was my thing where I was like, let me see. I know you told me all I have to do is be honest.
- [50:51]
B
Yeah.
- [50:52]
A
And work hard. And so let me, let me. I'm gonna crunch these numbers. And so I was a liar and I was a thief. I got arrested in college doing a joke with my friend. We would try to steal something innocuous and in a Kmart in front of a security window, they took me and showed me what they were like. I was sitting at this desk 8ft from you, watching you stuff 8 Ronnie Millsap cassettes in the front of your jeans and walk out of the store. And I was like. And I was, you know, they were like, do you love Ronnie Milson? And I was like, no. I mean, with all due respect to Ronnie, it was a joke. And so, I mean, it's something that's something that I've had to learn because. And maybe it was part of my character that led me into acting.
- [51:48]
B
Yeah.
- [51:50]
A
So I've had to learn to like, I still am guilty of, like, I will. I don't lie so much anymore, but I will definitely withhold information if interesting. If I think, if I think a conversation is going to be confrontational or something.
- [52:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:07]
A
I'll.
- [52:08]
B
That makes sense.
- [52:08]
A
I'll put. I'll maybe try and wait, bury the.
- [52:12]
B
Lead a little bit.
- [52:13]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:15]
B
It's interesting. It's almost like you talk about the stealing, the lying when you were younger. It's Almost like you. It was a hard fought battle that you arrived at, like a deep sense of integrity.
- [52:26]
A
I. Listen, I. When I got to college, I mean, I, you know, my mom and dad, who I'm very lucky they're still with us. They, they're incredible. They, they, they have set an example for me and my siblings. And we're all. I love my three siblings. Like, they're really smart and funny and we're all, I think, doing a damn good job of like, taking a swing at aspiring to mom and dad. Yeah. Using our gift to, you know, using our weirdness to help people. One one sister's a powerful librarian. One one is a innovative school teacher. Yeah. And my brother works in craft beer.
- [53:09]
B
Yeah.
- [53:10]
A
Brewing and sales. So he's the king of the family. But, like, there's the sensibility. When I got to college and suddenly had this one day as a freshman in college, suddenly it hit me. I was like, I'm out in the world. I have to have get my first checkbook. Like, it's on me now.
- [53:31]
B
Yeah.
- [53:32]
A
Time to be an adult.
- [53:33]
B
Yeah.
- [53:34]
A
And I went into a payphone because it was 1988. And I called my dad and I said, dad, I'm really sorry for the last couple years where I was bristling against him. And like, I was just unpleasant in the ways a teenager can be of not liking myself and not knowing. When I got to theater school and I was a good student, I made sure I got as so that I did well in school. Not knowing where that was going, but I didn't give a shit. When I started theater school, the whole curriculum, it's like I found it.
- [54:11]
B
Yeah.
- [54:12]
A
And me and my friend Joe tied for the valedictorian of our department because we. I just wanted to learn this. I wanted to be the best at it and devour it.
- [54:21]
B
You felt like you found your home in a certain way.
- [54:23]
A
Yeah.
- [54:24]
B
Yeah.
- [54:24]
A
And that something clicked where I was like, oh, now time to be a man for the rest of my life. And I called my dad and I said, sorry for the, you know, for the pain in the ass I've been. And also just. Thank you.
- [54:37]
B
Yeah.
- [54:37]
A
You and mom, like, it's suddenly so clear to me the things you've just quietly been repeating to me my whole life are the only tools I need. And I'm, you know, I'm still the mess in whatever ways I am.
- [54:52]
B
Yeah.
- [54:53]
A
And I, you know, I'm still doing my best, but I've done, I've had a lot of success, like just taking their Lessons and turning that into, you know. It was because of their lessons that I stuck with carpentry. There was a time when I got to LA that going to commercial auditions and behaving like the rest of my actor friends from Chicago was clearly fruitless to me. I was like, you spend a whole day doing two commercial auditions. And I wrote about this one in my first book. It was crazy. In brief, in this big cattle call for a Budweiser audition was, among other recognizable faces, the guy that played Ogre in Revenge of the Nerds and the guy that played Carmine on Laverne and Shirt in a room of, like, 80 dudes.
- [55:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [55:44]
A
And I was like, what the fuck am I doing? And all of us are buying a lottery ticket to see whose funny face they make. When a home run is coming for your budw, that's the spot. And I was like. I went out and called my agent, was like, I'm going to just be a carpenter and then, like, try to get acting jobs. Yeah. And things like that. Like, I mean, I truly think just sticking to my woodworking made my acting career.
- [56:13]
B
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [56:14]
A
Crazily. And that all came from my mom and dad's sense of work ethic.
- [56:18]
B
Yeah, that's interesting. And it's also. Yeah, it's work ethic. It's also. I always say this to aspiring comedians, actors, filmmakers, is it's endurance. The people who I see around me who've stuck around, you know, through their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond, people who've stuck around, they figure out how to keep going. It's the people who stop who do fall away.
- [56:47]
A
One of my best friends who. Who started my wood shop with me, this beautiful actor named Martin McLendon. We went to theater school together. One of the best actors I've ever known. And he's also a really talented scene designer, and we love doing all these things together. He had a wife, and we were together in la, and that's just it. I was willing to just eat more shit. And he was living, you know, his choices. He got married before, you know, he had a household to take care of, and they were about to have their first baby, and I was still willing to live like a bachelor and get a couple months behind on my rent to live in a way that I felt shameful about, but I was like, I can take a certain amount of this to endure, to stick around. And at some point, he was like, you know what? This doesn't feel grown. This doesn't feel responsible.
- [57:47]
B
That makes total sense. I had friends like that too.
- [57:49]
A
I'm moving back to. And he moved home and immediately started running a theater department at a college.
- [57:55]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:56]
A
And has a couple.
- [57:57]
B
A very responsible job.
- [57:58]
A
I mean. Yeah, he's like a total American hero. And I was like, I totally get it. And I cried my eyes out when he left. He was, he was a huge part of my, my life then. And I was like, I totally get it. I'm willing to, yeah, I'm willing to do that. Still be a bit of a dipshit at 28, 29.
- [58:18]
B
And also, even if you do have endurance, also, it doesn't work sometimes. You know what I mean? It's like for the most part. And that's why it's such a gamble.
- [58:30]
A
It really is.
- [58:35]
B
Nick Offerman, thanks for being here. This is so fun.
- [58:39]
A
Oh, thank you so much.
- [58:40]
B
Congrats on your book and your movie and everything else you're doing. You are sharing your gift with the world and I appreciate it. Being part of that world.
- [58:51]
A
Well, I'm very grateful. I love. You know, it's funny, I have been such a fan of what you do. And even though we're no longer in our 30s, I still, I, I think we're doing well because I still feel like we're kids.
- [59:09]
B
Yeah.
- [59:10]
A
Still getting to hang around the clubhouse.
- [59:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [59:13]
A
And so this, this is part of it. So thank you for having me.
- [59:17]
B
Thanks, Nick. Working it Out.
- [59:19]
A
Cause it's not done.
- [59:22]
B
We're working it out. Cuz there's no. That'll do it. For another episode of Working it Out, Nick would like to highlight a non profit for working it out for a cause called Girls Garage. Girls Garage is a non profit design and construction school for girls and gender expansive youth age 9 through 18. It was founded in 2013. Girls Garage is the first ever design and building workshop for female, non binary and gender expansive youth in the United States. You can donate to them@girlsgarage.org you can follow Nick Offerman on Instagram. Ick. Offerman. Pick up his book Little Woodchucks at your local bookstore. It's really, really good. His movie Sovereign, which is also really good, is available on video on demand. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, ikebirbiglia. Great visuals on Nick Offerman's mustache, but man, him going over the table is absurd. He inspects it, he critiques it. Subscribe over at YouTube and watch Nick Offerman's mustache. Check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows and get the text messages. Put your phone number in so it doesn't go to spam. Find out about the New York City Pop Up Show. We're doing Jokes and Poems in November. Me and Jenny, Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shub Sarin Supervising engineer Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers the Band for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Oona, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It helps us so much. People recently said they loved the premium episode. They recently said they loved the episode with Jenny slate. We have 100, almost 190 episodes. All free. No paywall. Check them out. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell your local carpenter or woodworker. You can say, hey, I know something good to listen to in your workshop. Mike Birbigli is Working It Out. It's a podcast where Mike Birbiglia talks to other creatives about the creative process. He talks to comedians, actors, authors, even a woodworker. His name is Nick Offerman and he occasionally does some acting. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. See you next time.