190. J. Hope Stein: Eavesdropping on the Eavesdropper

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out

Episode 190: "J. Hope Stein: Eavesdropping on the Eavesdropper"
Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Mike Birbiglia
Guest: J. Hope Stein (Poet, Author, Mike’s wife)
Special Appearances: Pete Holmes, Val

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Episode Overview

In this playful yet deeply authentic episode, comedian Mike Birbiglia invites his wife, acclaimed poet J. Hope Stein, for a candid and often hilarious conversation about marriage, creativity, poetry, and the blurry lines between public and private selves. Through readings of new poems, honest reflections, and even an impromptu call with comedian Pete Holmes and his wife Val, the episode explores the intersection of comedy and poetry, the art of creative feedback, and the joys and absurdities of long-term relationships. The tone alternates between loving teasing, gentle introspection, and bursts of comic improvisation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Podcast Me” vs. “Real Me” Conundrum

• The Dynamic at Home vs On-Air
  • Jenny playfully calls out Mike for being “kinder” and more upbeat with podcast guests than at home ([04:05]).
  • “Sometimes around our apartment, you’ll say to me, I want you to be like you are with the guests on your podcast.” – Mike ([04:02])
  • They joke about the myth that comedians are always funny at home, with stories about Mike being “very serious” offstage ([05:16]).
  • Jenny’s love of the podcast personality, “It’s like the best parts of you without the challenges. And I love the challenges.” ([06:52])

2. Inside the Creative Partnership: Jokes and Poems

• Joint Performances at Joe’s Pub
  • Mike and Jenny discuss their collaborative shows that blend stand-up and poetry, where the flow is intentionally unplanned and spontaneous ([12:07]).
  • The contrast and synergy between comedy and poetry: “Poetry is comedy. Comedy is poetry. They're similar. They're both brevity.” – Mike ([19:53])
  • The poetry marketplace’s challenges: “If you look at the poetry section in stores, you’re like, ‘Oh, wow. Tumbleweed.’” ([13:11])
• On Creative Process and Feedback
  • Jenny values feedback that reflects a collaborator’s honest “take” on her work, not suggestions that steer her away from her voice ([31:36], [32:09]).
  • They poke fun at how comedy feedback is direct (“Is that funny?”), while poetry requires more nuanced engagement ([31:09]).

3. Poetry Readings and the Power of the Typo

• "Holy"/"Bless the Typo" Poem

  • Jenny reads a poem exalting the beauty of mistakes and typos:

    “Bless each misspoken and misspelled word... Bless the typo. They are truths being whispered to us by the miracle of a botched letter. I am sad to kiss your party. I mean, I am sad to moss your party.” ([17:55])

  • Discussion about the joy of unplanned slips in language – as “spiritual” and a metaphor for the creative mind.

• "The Grown Ups and the Growing" Poem

  • A poetic exploration of adulthood versus growth, channeling “The Little Prince”:

    “On my planet, there’s two kinds of people. The grown ups and the growing. But there’s something wrong with our grownups… they walk the planet as if they have nothing new to learn.” ([21:40])

  • Dual message: prompts kids to be wary of "grownups" and encourages adults to remember to keep growing ([25:08]).

• "Eavesdropping" Poem (Written for a Film Character)

  • Written in the voice of a mother quietly listening to her daughter, blending observation and longing:

    “It’s not considered spying exactly. Just listening the way one would open a window and listen to birds... You can only catch glimpses of it now, like when you meet her somewhere and there’s a moment you see her and she doesn’t realize you’re there.” ([26:50])

  • Mike’s reaction: “I love that poem so much. It’s hard. I have to hold myself back from crying...” ([29:10])

4. The "Plane Crash" Bit: Comedy, Reality, and Relationship

• Mike’s Stand-up Bit About Marital Dynamics in Crisis
  • Mike reads his “Plane Crash” routine, about how even in disaster, the couple would devolve into gentle bickering ([35:18]).

    “My greatest fear is being in a plane crash with my wife. Not because I don’t love her, but because somehow I feel like I would be blamed for the plane crash.” ([35:18])

  • Jenny reframes the bit: “To me at this moment, it reflects more about what your internal monologue is in life. And it’s like a cry for help than it has to do with me.” ([36:56])
  • They discuss ideas for responding poetically to such bits, debating whether to “punch back” or offer a “disarmingly loving” rejoinder ([39:54]).

5. Navigating Marriage, Extroversion, and Partnership

• On Doing What the Other Person Wants

  • They reflect on the paradox of marital compromise, where both partners try to defer to the other – sometimes for years ([44:08]).
  • “So it’s a lot of, like, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do... and then it’s 20 years later and no one’s done what anyone wants to do.” – Mike ([45:09])

• Introvert/Extrovert Dynamics

  • Jenny’s “Introvert Slow Round”: Discussing her “extrovert era” in youth and preference for low-key, non-talkative party company ([50:20]).
  • “I like the quiet people and I like the people who don’t need to talk so much, who just sort of... just enjoy each other’s lives.” – Jenny ([51:26])

6. The Rhythms of Long-Term Marriage (with Pete Holmes and Val)

• Changing Habits and Missing the Old Flow
  • Jenny fondly recalls the era where Mike would take phone calls on speaker, letting her “chime in” with friends like Pete ([54:33]).
  • They call Pete Holmes (and Val) live, reminiscing about their old shared “energy flow” and debating whether offloading “bro time” is protective or just a normal need ([56:13]).
  • Notable moment: Pete imagines Mike looking “like one of those transparent pieces of paper you put on an overhead projector... a sleepy dad writes equations on” ([59:11]).

7. Poignancy and Playfulness: Final Thoughts on Marriage and Art

• Mutual Love and Teasing

  • “I love you.” – Mike ([45:20])
  • “I love you, too.” – Jenny ([45:20])
  • They gently debate who gets their way more often ([45:49]).

• Notable Charitable Contribution

  • Jenny chooses the Children's Hospital in Los Angeles for the episode's charity ([60:13]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It’s like the best parts of you without the challenges, and I love the challenges.” – Jenny, [06:52]
• “Poetry is comedy. Comedy is poetry. They're just... They're both brevity. Their brevity is the soul of wit, art forms.” – Mike, [19:53]
• "Bless the typo. They are truths being whispered to us by the miracle of a botched letter." – Jenny (poem), [17:59]
• "On my planet, there’s two kinds of people. The grown ups and the growing. But there’s something wrong with our grownups..." – Jenny (poem), [21:40]
• “To me at this moment, it reflects more about what your internal monologue is in life. And it’s like a cry for help than it has to do with me.” – Jenny (on Mike’s plane crash routine), [36:56]
• "So it's a lot of, like, whatever you want to do... And then it's 20 years later and no one's done what anyone wants to do." – Mike, [45:09]
• “I like the quiet people and...the people who don’t need to talk so much, who just sort of... just enjoy each other's lives.” – Jenny, [51:26]
• “When you live with someone for like, what, 20 years or something... you have all these patterns...And part of our flow...was that you’re always on the phone." – Jenny, [54:03]
• “I want to chime in. You want to be a sidecar on a motorcycle.” – Jenny & Mike, [54:48]
• “I think Mike and I... crave a little bit of bro time.” – Pete Holmes, [58:36]
• "Old Blueberry Eyes fixed it up." – Mike, [59:56]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | Description | |------------|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00-03:17| Intro/banter | Light marital joking, episode setup | | 04:02-07:00| "Podcast Me" vs. Home Me | Jenny’s critique of Mike’s podcast persona | | 12:07-14:09| "Jokes and Poems" Process | How they improvise their live shows | | 17:55-19:19| "Bless the Typo" Poem Read | Jenny reads a poem celebrating mistakes | | 21:40-23:42| "The Grown Ups and the Growing" Poem | Jenny’s new book excerpt, dual message for all ages | | 26:50-29:34| "Eavesdropping" Poem | Written for a movie, the poignancy of parenthood | | 35:18-36:47| Mike's "Plane Crash" Stand-Up Bit | Marriage & disaster routine, reflected on by Jenny | | 54:03-56:13| Phone Call Habits and Missing Pete Holmes| Marital routines, introvert/extrovert partnership | | 56:13-59:52| Surprise Call to Pete & Val | Reminiscing, marriage advice, comedic riffing | | 60:13-60:53| Charity Segment | Jenny chooses Children's Hospital LA |

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

• Tone: Intimate, playful, affectionate, self-deprecating, literary, and occasionally philosophical.
• For Listeners: This episode offers an unusually personal look at both the comic and poetic mindset, united by the shared life of Mike and Jenny. It’s a must-listen for anyone interested in creative process, marriage, or how the best art is often rooted in the specifics of daily life (and love).

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Additional Highlights

• Listener Engagement: They encourage listeners to email with art/book ideas ([24:33]).
• Premium & Live Shows: Mike plugs live shows and premium podcast features ([03:11], [09:02]).
• Meta-Humor: Jenny jokes, “I live here,” at the episode’s end, punctuating both her role as guest and partner ([60:55]).

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For more:

• Follow J. Hope Stein on Instagram: [@jhopestein]
• Pick up her book, Little Astronaut
• Check out upcoming “Jokes and Poems” shows at [burbigs.com]

Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

When I die, how long before you marry someone else?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Stop it. I hate that question so much. It's the worst question.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm never gonna get married again.

[Mabel]

Boom.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This interview's over.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

We don't have to worry because we're never gonna die.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

That is the voice of the great J. Hope Stein. That is my wife, the poet, the author.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She wrote a book few years ago.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Called Little Astronaut that is available everywhere. She is the co author of a book that we did together called the new one Painfully True Stories from a Reluctant dad with poems by J.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hope Stein.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I think a lot of you are probably familiar with her work. She was, you know, she has poems that I read in my special, the New One from Broadway. She's back on the podcast today with some new poems that I love. We've been doing some shows together called Jokes and Poems here in New York City on over at Joe's Pub. We did one last month. We're doing one in a couple weeks from now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's a, it's.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

They're intimate shows. It's at Joe's Pub. It's like probably about 160 seats and so it usually sells out really quickly. If you want to be the first to know about those shows, sign up for my text message alerts. This is a new thing we're doing because a lot of times our email list goes to people's spam and so we're doing text messages in addition to that. All you need to do to sign up is text Birbigs B I R B I G s to the phone number 917-444-7150. I will repeat that text BURBIGS to 917-444-7150 to get all the latest live show info. That number will also be in the description of this episode in case you didn't immediately memorize it. Another thing I wanted to mention was that in January I will be performing in one week of the Simon Rich play All out on Broadway, comedy about ambition. Last year was the first version of the shows called All In. It had John Mulaney and Fred Armisen. I remember Nick Kroll, a lot of great folks. Anyway, this year it's a rotating cast of people. I know Jim Gaffigan's doing it. The week I'm doing it is January 13 through 18, which will also have I know Cecily Strong as well as Wayne Brady. It is a really funny script. It is music by the band Lawrence live on stage. Last year was fantastic.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think these shows should be great, too.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I'm also performing as a part of Stand up for Heroes November 10th at the David Geffen hall in Lincoln Center. Center for Heroes is an organization that's raised over $113 million to date to help veterans and military families. And I've done a lot of events for them over the years. I think they do an amazing job. It's a great lineup. It's Alex Edelman, Jim Gaffigan, Idina Menzel.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Lea Michele, Leslie Odom Jr. Tom Papa.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Jon Stewart and myself. I always love these shows. They're really memorable.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Great organization.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

By the way, thanks to everyone who signed up for Working It Out Premium on Apple Podcasts. We have some great bonus stuff that we've come out with. I did an episode where I punched up listeners jokes, which was super fun.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And we're recording another one of those.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Soon, so sign up and stay tuned for that. This is a great conversation with J.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hope Stein.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

If you don't know her work. She's been published in the New York Times and the New Yorker and Post Poetry International and her own books, Little Astronaut and we wrote the new one together. She reads some new poems. Today we talk about giving and receiving creative feedback, particularly about poetry, which I don't really know how to give feedback on poetry because I'm not a poet. She explains that. She explains the difference between podcast me and real me. Off the mic me, plus a phone call with our friend Pete Holmes that randomly occurs. Enjoy my conversation with the great J.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hope Stein.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Working it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sometimes around our apartment. You'll say to me, I want you to be like you are with the guests on your podcast.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That's true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So here we are.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

There was like one day where I was listening to your podcast. I'm a huge fan.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Love the show. And I was listening to it and just the way you were with the guest and it was like that day, like I was getting kind of like a gruff side of you that was just very.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Never heard of it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And I was just like, oh, my gosh. And especially during the pandemic, because you were kind of down. But then you would like light up for the podcast.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I wonder why I was down.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You would just like light up.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I wonder what it was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I can't put my finger on it. Anyway, I don't know.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I'm dying to get on here for the. The tude.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

The tude.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, it's funny. You do this thing in our life, life together. Not on the podcast where you'll Be.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Like, you'll joke about how people say.

[Mike Birbiglia]

To you, you're married to a comedian. He must make jokes all the time. And then you'll joke about how I never make jokes. I'm very serious. As my mom always has said, when people say to her, your son must make jokes all the time, she says, no, he's so serious.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah. She's always like, joe's the funny one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Joe's the funny one. Mike is very serious. It's true.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You're ever very serious, man.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But so now when I make jokes in real life, you stop to. I stop and I go. Just so you know, that was a pretty good joke.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, you're like. You're getting the good stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cause I'm sick of not getting credit for, like, solid jokes in life.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

My favorite thing is when you do physical comedy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Like, when you just, like, do, like, weird dances and, like, weird animal moves.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

What brings you to this podcast today?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Well, for weeks, you were going. You were going, you're gonna do the pod. You know, you're doing the pod in, like, two weeks, right? You know it. And so I'm very thankful to be here. I'm a huge fan. Like I said, I don't know why you brought me here, because you must be sick to death of me, but. No, in your real life, no. But the truth is, when you're away, I listen to the pod because it calms me.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Aw, that's sweet.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I'm not trying to even be sweet.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, you don't have to say that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But I'm just saying you don't have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

To take away the sweetness of it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I love when you read the ads. It's, like, my favorite part. It makes me laugh so much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Some people hate the ads.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

That's why part of the reason we.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did premium is I get where you get no ads, because people sometimes complain. They go, I don't like the ads. I wish you didn't do ads.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I usually don't like ads on podcasts, but your ads, I find them joyful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so you love my personality on podcast, you hate my personality in real life.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like, it's like, the best parts of you without the challenges, and I love the challenges.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's talk through the challenges.

[Mabel]

I'm married.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I married.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You married the challenges. You married the challenges.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And the best parts are, like, little bursts and sparks, like, in my daily life. But, like, the podcast kind of, you know, consolidates them all into, like, 90 minutes or 70 minutes or you remember.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When we got married and I talked to you about how I'm a nightmare person to get married to?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

This is a great time for you to do your joke about how you said you were never happy or something like that. You have a new joke you're running with.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, I can do that joke. Because you did come to the Cellar the other night and see some of the new.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Oh, I went to the Cellar for the first time in 20 years or something.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

And you came to the Mulaney Fred.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Armisen, Nick Kroll show in Port.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yes, for sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which you liked, right?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I loved that show. I had the best time. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, and you know what? We'll get to later because I did the bit that I've done on this podcast before, the plane crashing bit, and I'll do that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Have you read it on the podcast?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I did it. I think I did it during the JaneKickline Leva Pierce Dukes episode. Oh, yeah. But I'll read it today because there's two people who have requested a response of some kind. One was John Mulaney at that show.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

John Mulaney. Okay, you were reading it. Okay. You're reading this piece, and I'm side stage with Malini and a couple other.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

People, and the joke is us in a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In a. In a plane crash and us kind of having a narrative, having a dialogue as the plane is crashing.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I'm the butt of the joke. And it's a very long, extensive, very esque, like, chunk, you know, so it's like. It rolls for, like, 20 minutes. It's all on the butt of the joke the entire time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And then Jen says, well, you know. And so I'm like. And I'm like, laughing my ass off. And Mulaney is like, laughing, and then Mullini's like, you should go on stage. Stage right now. It's like. It's an arena full of, like, 10,000 people.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

It was 10,000 people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It actually would have been great if you walked on. That would have been hilarious.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You would have had, like, a heart attack. You would have thought, like, something was wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I'd have a heart attack.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

For me to come on stage in the middle of.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

On stage. I don't care about, literally, producers. When we do jokes and poems. When we do jokes and poems on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Stage, like, when we're doing Joe's Pub, which, by the way, we're announcing that Today we're doing one in, I think, two weeks. It's on Brewbigs.com Sign up for the Mailing list. Sign up for the. This is the. The text alert is the new thing that people have to sign up for. Just because we. It gets. It doesn't go in people spam. But anyway, Jokes and poems.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I'm calm as anything. You literally will say anything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'll just be like, all right. You'll be like, I don't like standing here. I'm like, all right.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Can I stand over there?

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Can I stand back there again?

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That's different than coming on in the middle of your set on a Malini show. Literally wouldn't be in front of 10,000 people. It's not even your own show. I'm just like, walk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a great example of how cool I am. During the last jokes and poems, you asked to switch sides with me during the show. Then you asked to switch sides again, and Mabel was asking, was there a reason?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think I was just getting situated in the room. Is that funny? I don't know. Don't you guys have to get situated?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Nope.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So, okay. There was this, like, weird kind of like, clown mirror that was like, projecting an image of me that was like, all distorted from the back of the room. So then I was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're saying there was a mirror in the back of the room that you.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Were looking at of yourself?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

There's a mirror that was pointed at me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I swear, I did not notice this at all.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Well, you were on the side with it and it, like, at the end because, like, there's this mirror, but it's like a funhouse mirror. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And then it's like this distorted, like, brrr. Picture, like, image of me. So then I was like, that's too distracting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mirrors like that actually always make me look better.

[Mabel]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because in real life, I am distorted. And then I see those, and it's.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Like, oh, he's looking good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Symmetrical as fuck.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So I have a similar thing. Like real life, I'm just feel distorted. And then I look and I'm like, oh, shit, I am distorted. So then I went back to the others. Oh, wait, we need to laugh longer at your joke. I'm sorry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Aha. Boo boo.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, I really am so sorry. I. I stepped on your.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

What's hilarious to that is that you never laugh in real life, ever at jokes.

[Mabel]

I do.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You actually laugh at things that are like, surprises.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You laugh at physical comedy. I laugh at surprises, Surprises, physical comedy, but not jokes.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But, like, it's a given. You're going to be Funny.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Not true.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

The given.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Not according to my mom.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

The given, like, is that there's always going to be humor in our conversation. So I'm just like, we're rolling.

[Mabel]

We're rolling.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It's a. It's a momentum thing, just like your shows. You know how you step on the audience's laughter.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's true.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Until the grand finale, which is like a surprise. That's what I'm doing with you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay. So anyway, so then I went back to the other side.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And, you know, I just sort of hunkered down there. It wasn't easy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mm. The funny thing is, with jokes and poems, it is totally unusual of a show. We'll do a little sell of jokes and poems right now. It's like, I do a joke, you do a poem that makes you think of that. I do a joke that makes me think of that. We usually come up with it the day of.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think we.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We kind of both go through our notebook. It's. It's material that we already have, but. But we put it together the day of.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It gets a little stressful, like a.

[Mabel]

Few days before when we realize we have no plan.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And then every day we're like, we have a plan.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We should have a plan. We should have a plan.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And we're like, yeah, we should have a plan.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But because we're always planning so many things, we have schedule meetings all the time about our life. It's to find the creative, like, energy to plan until it's, like, right before, you know, and then it sort of falls into place, luckily, completely, because it's.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

You know, why jokes and poems, I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Think is good is this just doesn't exist.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

And actually, it's an oddly decent marriage of art forms.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah. And I think everybody's, like, prepared in their own way, but nobody really knows how it's going to go until it goes. So there's an energy that's sort of like, what. What are we about to say?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

And also, like, nobody.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Everyone always says, like, oh, I love poetry. But then they, like, don't buy poetry books. Like, if you look at the poetry section in stores, you're like, oh, wow.

[Mabel]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tumbleweed.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

No, it's just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, honestly, like, financially is one of the smallest subcategories in literature.

[Mabel]

It is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And, like, a lot of the poets are dead. If you go to a bookstore, the.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Best sellers are dead.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah. I shot them so that my wife.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Would be number one living poet. I killed all the other poets.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Maybe I'm gonna give you A long laugh on that one. Just like a rolling.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, it's Birbiglia, the poetry serial killer.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

He's killing every poet, every last one of them, till his wife is number.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One poet in the world.

[Mabel]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ranked by all the poetry ranking websites.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Ranker on ranker Amazon.com ranker.com.

[Mike Birbiglia]

On Amazon.com Little astronaut. And it literally number one book because all the other poets are dead.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But when you get dead, you get more popular.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I never.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You're right. There'd be, like, a living poet section.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I gotta get more popular when I'm dead.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Oh, that was one of my questions.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When I die, how long before you get married again?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Please don't. I'm not answering that question. And I. I'm, like, angry at you for asking it. And I'm, like, angry about all of your references to your own death as well as ours in a plane crash.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We don't die in the plane crash story.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

We live.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I know.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, I appreciate that, but it was imminent because you're.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was imminent, but we make it out alive. Do you. Why don't you like me evoking my own death for comedy sake?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Because I've just been through too much shit in my life to like. To, like, envision that. I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Isn't poetry and comedy just about love and loss?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It sure is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're here on Fresh Air.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Mike Birbiglia filling in for Dave Davies.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who'S filling in for Terry Gross.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It's getting deep here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What about the.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

What if I was the triple fill.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In on Fresh Air? That'd be good.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You should be. You're a great interviewer.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What are your favorite episodes?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Oh, boy. I knew you were gonna put me on the spot.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

No, no, I can just take that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, today I was walking.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I just thought you might know.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, today I was walking back from dropping it off at school, and I was like. Mind was completely blank. And I was like, I think Mike might ask me what my favorite episodes are. And I couldn't think of one single episode. And I'm, like, having.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're gonna have that be the trailer.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No. I'm such a huge fan, though.

[Mabel]

I really am.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

This is really hard for me. Can you give me a list and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'll point to them when I die. How long before you marry someone else?

[Mabel]

Stop it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I hate that question so much. It's the worst question.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm never gonna get married again.

[Mabel]

Boom.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This interview's over.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

We don't have to worry because we're Never gonna die.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Oh, yeah. We have that never gonna die card.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They give you when you go to Staples enough times.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

We're the never gonna die generation.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. You know how when you go to Chipotle 10 days in a row, they give you that card that says never gonna die? That's what we have.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

We have that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They punch it with a little burrito. Picture of a burrito.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

We have an endless supply of burritos.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know if Mabel's, like, laughing in earnest or laughing like, what the are we gonna do with this stuff?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It feels like, snip, snip, snip.

[Val]

Can I.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Can I nominate something that does make Jen laugh really hard for own typos? My typos thing. We laugh the most.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Let's talk about your.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's talk about your own typos that you make.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I find typos to be so spiritual.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Because it's like you're not trying to say the thing that you said. It's like, wait, you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you want to read the poem that has the typo reference that you did in jokes and poems?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah. And I just want to say, like, there's Freudian and then there's, like, spiritual. Like, there's another level, you know, which is like, you've said something that you can't even believe you said. So I keep a document of my typos because I think what you're saying, like, about how I don't laugh sometimes. I don't laugh. Like, it's sort of the rolling daily jokes of life. But when it's a typo, I laugh because it's a surprise. Like, I'm just really surprised by it, and I didn't plan it. And so when it comes out of my mouth, I'm just like. Or am I writing? I'm just, like, excited. So I don't know if I'm gonna even say anything about this poem other than there's a typo in it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay.

[Mabel]

Holy.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Holy.

[Mabel]

Bless the word juggernaut.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It is silly.

[Mabel]

Bless pincer and rhododendrons. They are silly too. Flowers are clownish and silly. They are perennial cousins come for a visit after a long winter. They summer with us and make our noses smile. Bless the nose. It is silly on the face like that. Bless the hair that points to every coordinate of sky. Bless the butt. It's very silly in all its forms and activities. Bless each silly thing that walks the planet and falls for falling as holy. Bless each misspoken and misspelled. Word. It is a kind of falling. Bless the typo. They are truths being whispered to us by the miracle of a botched letter. I am sad to kiss your party. I mean, I am sad to moss your party. The misspoken is silly and requires a human to make it so. Holy are the children whose birthright it is to be silly. Holy is the clown who falls backwards. Holy. Holy. Silly for silly equals holy. Holy is the clown who falls for when the clown falls, we see we are the fallen. And when the clown gets back up, we see we have risen. Let the clown slip backwards and let laughter ring.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love that. I always say when we do jokes and poems, I'm like, the poems are so much better than the jokes.

[Mabel]

Not true. But thank you.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But that is like a typo that I did write. I wrote to someone that I'm sad to kiss your party. And then I corrected it by saying, I'm sad to Moss your party. I was like, I mean, I'm sad to moss your party. And I was like, I can't. I just like go. I can't write a normal text message. And it just makes me happy. Because so much of poetry is like, where words take you and that kind of thing and sort of trusting the words instead of your thoughts.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

What occurs to me when I hear.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is like, that I think poetry and comedy are super very similar. We talk about this all the time in a certain way. Poetry is comedy. Comedy is poetry. They're just. They're similar. They're both brevity. Their brevity is the soul of wit, art forms. But I actually think what occurred to me for the first time as I was listening to that is the difference is if I was going to do that as a comedy piece, I would present it as though I was extemporaneously coming up with it. And you say more about that. Like, I'm just talking. Like, stand up comedy is often just like the illusion of I'm just talking. Yeah, I'm just. I'm just saying things off the top.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Of my head, right? Like, I'm not. This is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I didn't think this through.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Like, this isn't the thought through idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But with poetry, I feel like it's understood. Like, no, no, no.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

This is like the hundredth draft of this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

These are the words I chose for you.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And I think there is a style of poetry and I sometimes try to ride the line a little bit where you don't want it to be. Feel too into like a land of like, over revised and where you want it to feel like your mind is.

[Mabel]

Coming up with it in the moment.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Like you want to kind of capture.

[Mabel]

The mind a little bit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So there is versions. There are certain poetry. There is poetry that I really enjoy like that. And there is times where I try to emiliate, like, how is my mind working in a really, like, raw way? You want to try to keep some rawness sometimes. I mean, I try to sometimes. This one's probably a little bit more of a polished piece because it's a character in a book I'm writing. It says this. So it's like her lines, her poem.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

So this is a poem that you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Read at Jokes and Poems last time called the Grown Ups and the Growing. I was wondering if you'd read that today.

[Mabel]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Thanks.

[Mabel]

The grown ups and the growing. On my planet, there's two kinds of people. The grown ups and the growing. But there's something wrong with our grownups.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It's a big problem because grownups are.

[Mabel]

In charge of making all the important decisions on my planet. And they tend to make bad decisions.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Why?

[Mabel]

It's in their name. They're grown up. All the growing is done. It's not entirely their fault. They are under the spell of Pocket Witch, a witch who persuades grownups they know all there is to know. They walk the planet as if they have nothing new to learn. Worse, Pocket Witch has pickpocketed from grownups the imagination required to solve problems. All of this is evident in grownups unforgivable appearance. They are larger in size, taller, but their posture is curled inward. Their noses point at their navels. They dress in drab colors like herringbone in a crew. Ever have a grownup tell you what to do? And you know it's wrong and you still have to listen just because they're grown up. That's what it's like on my planet all the time. Grownups grown down on the growing. But do not despair. If you are among the growing and like me, are scared to become a grown up one day. Because all children become grown ups eventually on my planet. Hold on. If you are among the growing but feel yourself in little ways less and less yourself each day. If your body is starting to feel differently in T shirts, if hair seemingly grow overnight in new places. If each night with your head under the sheets, you hear the calling of the Pocket witch and are worried she is coming for you next, do not despair. I have a plan. But if you are a typical grown up who happened to stumble on this book mistakenly, I ask that you have mercy and please not report me to Pocketwitch who makes grownups forget they were once children. If you are a typical grownup who has ceased learning, please try to remember yourself as a child and then get out of the way.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Grown ups.

[Mabel]

Frown ups. Headstone thrown ups.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

This book is for the growing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Aww, that's so beautiful.

[Mabel]

That's the beginning of my new book.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's one of my favorites.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It almost makes me think we talk about this sometimes. And if anyone's listening has ideas for this, email us. Working up pottage Gmail. When I see that poem, I'm like.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

That is a book.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, in other words, like that four pages that you just read.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I'm like, that should be its own.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Little book that sits on a table where you pick it up.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

And that's an experience to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm like, I feel like the lit industry, it's not built for art. The formations of it are like, well.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Every book has to be at least 17.99 in order to pay for blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, it's almost like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I wish that there was like an artist.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

And I'm sure there probably is and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Someone should email us. I'd be really curious. Like.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Like that. That should be its own little art piece.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, that's so beautiful.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Thank you. That's a really good idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The other I had for grownups in the growing is. I feel like it appeals to young people in the. In the sense of like, hey, these grownups are terrible, et cetera. Like, some of these grown ups are terrible. But then it also has this thing of grownups. Hey, grownups, don't forget to grow.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So it's. It kind of has like these two. It has sort of a dual message to it, which I love.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

First of all, it was actually written for kids, Right. But I want it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's great for kids, but I want.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It to like, work on both levels. Like, my model is like the Little Prince, which is the ultimate model for like a kids book that works for grown, sort of a metaphysical way.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Whatever happened to that rag?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It's hard to find.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I wanted you to read this poem that I love that is you wrote for a movie.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I won't say what movie, because.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, don't say.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah, yeah. Because it hasn't come out yet.

[Mabel]

Yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And also, I don't think it matters that much.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But I was gonna say what I wanted to say about it is that it's a movie and I was asked to write a poem for it, for coming from the perspective of one of the characters. So it was interesting because I've never done. I haven't done much of this, but it was like someone else wrote a movie and they wrote a character. And then I was thinking, like, what would happen if that character came across this poem by Kim Adenizio and was then inspired to write this poem.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah. So Kim Adenizio's poem, which is called To a woman crying uncontrollably in the next stall. It's a beautiful poem. You guys should look that up. That poem is incredible. And that made me start a poem that starts with the first line saying, to the woman sitting at the top of the staircase. So that's sort of the energy that I was like bringing to it for this character.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you want to read it?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Sure. It's called eavesdropping.

[Mabel]

To the woman sitting at the top.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Of the staircase listening to the sound of her teenage daughter talking with friends.

[Mabel]

It's not considered spying exactly. Just listening the way one would open a window and listen to birds. It's not creepy, I promise you.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Just don't tiptone down another step to.

[Mabel]

Hear her more completely. You can only catch glimpses of it now, like when you meet her somewhere and there's a moment you see her and she doesn't realize you're there.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Listen, do you overthink random things to the point of stupidity, like what she.

[Mabel]

Promised you when she was three? When I grow up, mama, I want to live next door to you, and every day I will buy you groceries. And do you find yourself half wishing you could hold her to it now that the time is near? Does it ever feel like you've marathoned through the ears? As her sibling, best friend, teacher, mother, relearning chemistry up for nights, terrified with fever, hers all depending on the day.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Like the summer she was on crutches with a broken foot and her best.

[Mabel]

Friend dumped her because she couldn't go to gymnastics camp.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You hugged her and said something like, I wish we were the same age.

[Mabel]

So we could be best friends. Seven year olds can be such assholes. Have you ever found yourself engaged in.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Tasks of the absurdity such as laminating.

[Mabel]

A school schedule, then hole punching it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And affixing it to a retractable keychain.

[Mabel]

Then attaching it to the outside of a backpack purely for the sake of your child's ease? Listen. You deserve to hear this. The way you hear a song you.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Love and say, turn it up and let it wash over you completely with.

[Mabel]

Your Hands in the air.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

This is that song because you sang.

[Mabel]

Her into this world and you can't hold a song. You can only listen.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, so beautiful.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It used to have another ending. I think you told me to end on that line last time when you read it, right before we did jokes and poems, I think I was like.

[Mabel]

You can't hold a song. You can only listen.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And then I think I had the line, you did a great job.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I told you to end with, I'm J. Hope Stein.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm outta here.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Follow me, jhopestein on Instagram.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's what I told you to end it with.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, that's right. Great suggestion. That's how I end all my poems now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Follow me, jhopestein on Instagram.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Thank you very much.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It's like a really beautiful ending, right? Follow me on an Instagram.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Huh? I love that poem so much. It's hard. I have to hold myself back from crying because I'm like, I just. I would look so ridiculous in tears.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Well, that's the second time I read it. You look beautiful in tears.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's not the second time you read it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, it's the second time I read it in person. Like you read it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Jokes and poems.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Reading jokes and poems.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You read it to Mabel and me once on.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, no, I recorded it and I let you guys listen to it. Oh, different. So the first time I actually read it in front of people was jokes and poems. And I was like, oh, this is making me feel something. And I didn't expect that because like I said, I wrote it for a character.

[Mabel]

She's nothing like me.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah, I noticed that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No common elements.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's no parallels to life.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Sometime in art, you have to, you know, go deep inside, reach inside and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Imagine what it would be like to have a seven year old child feel.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That kind of heartbreak.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

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[Mike Birbiglia]

Bed with your Helix mattress.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

It's cozy because Helix mattresses are comfortable. They have so many options to choose from based on your sleep preferences. It's warm because you've got the Helix birch natural down duvet. Can't swing a whole new mattress right now. You can still have a cozy winter with a Helix mattress topper. They have so many mattress toppers to choose from. Make your old mattress feel new. Everyone on Staff here at Working it out has a Helix mattress. We are never going back. Go to helixsleep.com Burbigs for 20% off sitewide. That's helixsleep.com BurbigS for 20% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show's code after checkout so they know we sent you helixsleep.com brbigs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It'S funny that you were like, you gave me a note on this because I'm like, I actually don't remember that because I don't think of myself as ever giving you notes. I was curious, like, do you get notes from people or feedback? What kind of feedback do you typically want? Because on this podcast, I always talk about comedy. Feedback is really basic. It's like, is that funny to me? Do I relate to that? Do you want to hear more about it? It's, like, kind of simple.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think the thing that you usually do is like, this is what I'm getting from this. And, I mean, I think it's always helpful for me to hear people I respect, artists I respect say, like, if it was mine, this is what I would do with it. That doesn't make me feel weird, even if it's, like, something I would never do with it, because to me, that's just, like, a lot of good information. So I love that kind of thing. Like how other people's brains work when sort of interacting with your own. Your words. And then they're like, well, if it was mine, I would just do this whole other thing with it. And it's like, oh, that's very interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

What is not helpful?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Poetry? Feedback.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think all feedback is interesting. If you want feedback. I definitely think that there are people who want to make something. They want you to make something different than you're making. That kind of feedback is just not that helpful because you're like, well, you should go make that thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You should do that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You should make that thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That sounds great for you.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Love that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That's not my voice. My voice is sort of doing a different thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Same with comedy.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

It's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the most painful thing. When people project onto you what their artistic voice is, you're like, yeah, dude, that's not what this is.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Totally. And so I guess that when you get a comment like that, you want to make sure it's not from someone that is very connected to who you think should be, like, getting what you're doing. So meaning, like, if it depends who that comes from, if it comes from a person where you're like, well, that person is sort of like, never going to be liking anything that I'm going to be doing versus somebody who really knows your work and who really gets you and has a. Has a. I don't know, it sort of has a comment that you don't want to hear. Yeah, I think there. It's a fine line, you know, But I think it depends who it's coming from sometimes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the hardest we've ever laughed together that you remember?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I would say, like, it's usually when we leave a party and we're, like, holding in. Where were we the other day? Where, like, if we're at a movie and we're like, holding in or show or a party where we're like, have to hold in. And we'll just be like, we have a lot to talk about. That's all we can do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's going to be a lot to talk about.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And then we, like, hit the street and we have to walk, like, four blocks away from wherever we came from.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A huge part of our life is estimating how far away people are from when it's safe to trash them.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, we're really good at it. Hourglass isn't. Don't go anywhere with Hourglass.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't even know if we can keep this in.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay, take it out.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

He.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

He's challenged.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He. And it's not that he's trashing people per se, but he's very candid.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

He's a candidate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He doesn't believe in kind of any discretion, seemingly. And so we'll walk out of a play and he'll just say how he felt about the play, but, like, loudly with the people who were at the play. It's his gift, and it's crazy.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I call it Ira's gift because he would say it to our faces. If we weren't good at something, he would be like, that was really bad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, and he has.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And he has.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Or at least with me, certainly.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Oh, he wants us to do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He came to jokes and poems, and he wants us to do a thing where you write a response to a comedy bit that I have.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Right. So it's the plane crashing thing, which we talked about earlier.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And like, we talked about how, like, I was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hold on. Can I do the thing just so people know what I'm referencing?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

You can do the thing. And I am just gonna sit here and take it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, perfect.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I'm not gonna say anything. I'm not gonna roll my eyes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Perfect.

[Mabel]

Keep the camera on him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is A this is a piece I wrote called Me and My Wife on a Plane that's Crashing. I think my greatest fear is being in a plane crash with my wife. Not because I don't love her, but because somehow I feel like I would be blamed for the plane crash. We find out we're going down, and she'd be like, I told you we shouldn't have gone on this flight. I'd be like, first of all, you didn't say that. Second of all, we're visiting your parents in Florida. I didn't want to do either of those things. I didn't want to go on this flight. I didn't want to visit your parents in Florida. She'd be like, never mind, doesn't matter. I'd be like, clearly it matters. It's obviously on your mind. She'd be like, I always say we're gonna crash when we fly. And I'd be like, a majority of the time you were wrong. And this time you're right. We're gonna crash. And I just think we should spend the final 10 minutes of our lives enjoying each other's company and feeling gratitude for having found each other in this lifetime. She'd say, that's what I was trying to do. I'd be like, nothing you said was even remotely similar to what I just said. And the pilot would come on the loudspeaker and be like, it looks like we're going to be able to make an emergency crash landing at a local field. And I'd be like, that's good, right? Like, do you think we can order an Uber to a field? She'd be like, I don't use Uber anymore. After I read that article in the Times about how they mistreat their employees, I'd be like, right, but if we're stuck in a field, I feel like we should make a one time exception. She'd be like, I prefer if we try Lyft first. And if Lyft isn't available, we can use Uber. In conclusion, my greatest fear is being in a plane crash with my wife, knowing I'm right, being told I'm wrong, and then living.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It's a masterpiece.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a shortened. It's a shortened version of it, but it's a shortened.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It goes on usually.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It goes on and on and on.

[Mabel]

Hold my hand here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I just want to say that, like, listening to it again. I've heard this many, many times over the years. Love it. It's a beautiful piece. Wouldn't change a word of it. To me at this moment, it reflects more about what your internal monologue is in life. And it's like a cry for help than it has to do with me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, sure.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think the audience knows all this. I think the audience knows maybe.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And so I think the audience thinks it's a dynamic. But I'm like, the dynamic is in your brain. It's not like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Actually, you're not buying brain dynamic.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

No, no, I think you're right. And I think, like, that's the thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That Ira really appeals to Ira about it. He loves the piece.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

And actually he thinks his working it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Out of this piece. His theory is multifold.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

1.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He thinks you should write a poetry response to it.

[Mabel]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Second of all, he thinks that I should write for a show a series of hypotheticals like this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, such that it builds out a world of kind of hypotheticals in a marriage.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

That's, like, his goal for it. Yeah, I'm interested by.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I'm also, like. I feel like I have a lot of other stuff to write for this next show.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think that is an interesting sort of assignment for you. At least just write one more and see what it feels like.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

No, but I think the thing you're.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Saying of, like, it's in your brain or whatever, it's like.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah, I mean, it's also like, I think the audience knows when someone goes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

On this rant that's completely fictional and absurd. They're like, a lot going on with this guy.

[Mabel]

Right.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So, like. So Ira was not.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

That's not a big shocker.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't think they're laughing at you in the story.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Well, after Ira saw the show, the Jokes and poems show where you read that while I was on stage. Cause I think it was the first time you read that while I was, like, standing next to you. And it's a longer version of that. So I'm just standing there on stage, like, whoa. Like, it's just, like, coming at me. It was funny, but it was, like, intense. Right. I don't know. I thought it was. So Ira was like, I want you to go, like, line by line, like, you know, responding to each thing. And I was like.

[Mabel]

But my.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I was like, maybe I like that idea. Like, it made me feel like, oh, yeah, Like I can punch back kind of thing. But then I was, like, thinking about it, and I'm just not. My brain just isn't going in that direction. So it's been. I've had to take a moment on that beat to sort of figure out, like, what My response would be. And then this morning, I was thinking about it, like, wrote something down. Okay. So what I was thinking is what I want to respond with, instead of going like, tit for tat or anything like that is like, I want to, like, disarm you. Like, I want to go, like, so big and, like, with, like, a response that's, like, so emotionally disarming, that so deeply understands you and that it's, like, completely disarming. Like, it's not like, I'm gonna punch you, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's a good idea.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah. So that's all I have so far. I mean, that's. My instinct is just like, something that's like. Goes the opposite way. It goes the opposite way as. As like a punching match. That's something that's like. More like.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

That's a version of it for sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think another version of it is. And of course you have that already, because you have hundreds of love poems you've written about me.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I sure have. I do. And also, like, the whole book. The new one. And like, the new one book and also Little Astronaut. I might as well. I mean, I wrote this down. But, like, most of the poems that I wrote in there, they start with when I. In my early versions of them, you have this joke about me where you say, blah, blah, blah, but actually, blah, blah, blah. You know, this is my side of the story about this things.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Actually.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You never did the dishes.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, actually this and actually that. And so. And so I do have a lot of my side of the story kind of things that we've done. And that's. But I think the new one is shows that sort of highlights.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The funny thing about that is sometimes people, like, a reviewer or whatever would be like, he's the asshole because he doesn't do the dish.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I'm like, I read that to you. Like, I don't agree with it, but.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm not going to spend 10 minutes that's, like, shooting it down. Like, what are you talking about?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, well, that's why we don't really read reviews anymore.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I still do. Yeah.

[Mabel]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So. But. So, yeah, So I feel like I've done that a lot, and so now, like, my. I'm a much more mature artist.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Huh.

[Mabel]

In person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I totally agree.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And I'm like, Couldn't agree more. I'm going high instead of going low.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. I want to go like, the Obamas.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

The Obamas. And I want to go high. I want to just, like, make it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, although even the Obamas now are like, fuck that phrase. Fuck that motto we had.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I do think maybe fuck the motto they had. But in our marriage, I, like, use it as a model. And so I'm going to go high with it. I think I want to go really high. I want to write something where you're just going to be, like, crying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's. I already had it with eavesdropping.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

There you go.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

I already had it with the growing and the grown.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, but this is where gonna be, like, a response to this thing you wrote. But you're at the center of it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're gonna do a poetry battle. It's a poetry battle.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah. And, like, you're expecting to get punched, and I'm just gonna make you cry without touching you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's nice. That's nice.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Walk away.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Knock me over with a feather. Yeah, I think, like, that's one way to do it for sure. But since we're on working it out, I'll throw out another version of it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Love to hear it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think there's a version where you could do mine, except for each line you divert into yours. I think my greatest fear in my life is being in a plane crash with my husband, because somehow I feel like he'd write about it and talk about it on stage. You know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Like, everything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You take every line and you just spin it on. Like, everything he does is to bring attention to himself. You know what I mean? Which I think could be fun, too.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think one of my immediate reactions when Ira had said it was like, I was, like, thinking, like. Like, the plane crash thing is the analogy for just, like, you every day, which is what I'm saying. Like, your inner monologue is, like, you approach every situation as though we're in the middle of, like. Like, everything's a plane crash. I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Everything's, like, funny.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That's how I describe you, which you did in detail. And so. But I'm talking about, like, socks on the floor.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I'm talking about. Oh, that's another one I could do. Ira would.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So, yeah, I mean, I still. I still want to go high. I don't want to go low. But, yeah, I can. I can try that. I can do that as a writing exercise and see where it takes me. I'm open to that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The other thing I did recently as a bit. And you had a lot. You really helped me with it, which is I did as a bit. This idea of, like, I was married 17. I got married 17 years ago, but the most seminal thing in my life that occurred was I fell in love 20 years ago. Because falling in love is a shocking experience, because your whole life, you have all these hopes and dreams and plans for what you want to do, and then you fall in love and you're like, or whatever you want to do. And then this is what you helped me with. I go, my wife came to see me perform, and she saw me tell that joke, and she said, that's what you think happened? She goes, we spent the last 20 years doing exactly what you want to do. And therein lies the complexity of. Of. Of being married is you have two people often intending to do what the other person wants to do at the same time. So. So it's a lot of, like, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do. And then it's 20 years later, and no one's done what anyone wants to do. And then I say to the audience, if this sounds familiar, I got to tell you, you gotta start doing what somebody wants to do because you're running out of time.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I love that piece.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a nice piece.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I love you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love you, too.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But I will say that if you did a little survey of the people.

[Mabel]

In your life.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think you would find the majority is what you want to do.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Versus what you want to do.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Meaning, like, if you did a survey of all the people in your life and you said, when we hang out, do you think we're doing what I want to do or what you want to do?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Here's what's funny. With my friends, I think more often than not, it is what I want to do because I have so little free time with friends. When it's you, I feel like it's 80, 20, what you want to do.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That is so beautiful that you see things that way.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Support for working it out comes from Quince. Oh, man, I love Quince.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This year, I've talked a lot about.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Quince's summer and fall collections.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You must be thinking, that's all they have, right?

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Surely they don't have a winter and holiday collection. Guess what they do. They've got my old standby, the $50 Mongolian cashmere sweater. And for the cold weather, they have wool coats that are equal parts stylish and durable. You got a layer, everybody. You're not going to get better layers anywhere else than Quince. Throw on a Mongolian cashmere sweater, then put the wool coat over that. What's that it's snowing. Maybe trade the wool coat for Quince's Responsible Down Hooded Parka.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've got one of those parkas. They are excellent.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

So now you've got an outfit that's stylish, high quality, affordable and best of all, ethically made. They don't call it the Responsible Down Hooded Parka for nothing. Give and get. Timeless holiday staples that last the whole season with quince. Go to quince.com brabiggs for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada as well. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com biggs free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com burbigs support for working it out comes from AG1. Oh I love AG1. It is a daily foundational nutrition formula designed to support energy, immune defense, gut health and overall wellness. It is almost winter time. The days are getting shorter. There's holiday travel, crowded indoor gatherings. All of this can put a strain on your system. With AG1, you can stay one scoop away from the health challenges of the season. I love AG1 because a good sleep schedule is very important for me and AG1 helps keep my daily rhythm steady with superfoods and B vitamins which give me energy throughout the day. That way I'm not peeking and crashing with just coffee. Antioxidants, probiotics and functional mushrooms support immune resilience. This is important for me year round when I'm touring, I'm on airplanes, I'm on trains. I'm also in crowded auditoriums with all of you, which I love. Go to the site drinkag1.combrbigs to get a free welcome kit with an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 when you first subscribe. That's drinkag1.com for Biggs. Support for Working it out comes from Rag and Bone. Oh man, I love that Rag and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Bone is a sponsor.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

They are a clothing retailer.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's one in my neighborhood.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

They sell great stuff in stores, also online. I'm here to talk to you about their infused denim collection. Rag and Bones Infused denim goes through a proprietary multi step process where each wash advances the authenticity of vintage selvage by infusing it with a spectrum of shades for an entirely unique look. I did not know that that's how.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You describe it, but I have a.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Pair of these and they're great and that seems exactly correct.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Actually I wouldn't have been able to Describe it, but it is a very.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Kind of like, lived in worn look.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which is like, exactly like the kind of thing I want to wear.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Super comfortable. It's time to upgrade your denim with rag and bone. For a limited time, our listeners get 20% off their entire order with code for BIGS at rag-bone. That's 20 off at rag-bone.com with promo code for Biggs. When they ask where you heard about them, please support our show and let.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Them know we sent you. Okay. We created a slow round for you called the introverted slow round because you're the only person on the show who's ever complained about the slow round.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I am not complaining about the slow round. I'm like, mystified by the slow round. The slow round. Everyone has an answer to these questions, these big life readily available in their brains. My brain is not functioning at that level.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is the introverted slow round. If this is a hit, every introvert who comes on is going to take this from now on.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

As an introvert, did you ever have an inauthentic extrovert era?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yes. So I wasn't always an introvert. I was probably have been considered an extrovert for most of high school and college. Yeah, I was wild. I was like. I mean, imagine me New Year's Eve.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Was it inauthentic?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Imagine me like New Year's Eve on a train leaving Penn Station, like, standing up and like, leading like, the train in like a song and D. And like. Yeah, like, I had a whole.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What song?

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

What dance?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I've been trying to tell you this. I used to be an extrovert and, like, my high school and college friends would be confused by the introvert thing, I think. I mean, not the people who really, really, really knew me, they knew that there's like another side to me, but I was working on a strong extroverted party girl.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Kind of vibe for a while.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is more of the introvert slow round.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Who is your favorite and least favorite type of person to talk to at a party?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I like the quiet people and I like the people who don't need to talk so much, who just sort of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just enjoy each other's lives.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Low expectation people. There are people who come up to me sometimes and tell me I'm so brave because I let you tell jokes. I don't like that so much. But I mean, I think they mean well. So it's like, I don't want to be mean, but I don't know why that is weird to me. Because I'm just like, I'm not brave. And also, we always talk about everything, so I don't see it that way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, well, there's no surprises.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I don't know. But I don't know. I'm not that judgmental of people. I think there is a misconception that if you're being introverted, you're being judgmental of other people. But I think more often than not, like, at least for me, being an introvert, I'm like, more judgmental of myself. That's where my head's at. Not judging other people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What are some tips and tricks for introverts who are married to extroverts?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I don't know. I can't speak for all introverts, but I could speak to. My hesitation is not. It's like. It's not a put on. Or it's not like, oh, I'm so introverted. So, you know, I'm not gonna do this. It's just like. It's like much deeper, right? It's a bit like a deeper in incapability that we're struggling with. So patience.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

This is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe you could help me with this joke, which is.

[Mabel]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My wife wrote this poem about our daughter's eyes and how they look like little blueberries, except she has my eyes. And I'm like, where's my poem? These are the first generation blueberry eyes. Those are blueberry eyes 2.0. I feel like it could be a quick poem. Like the prostrate shrubs of my husband's thighs make way for his breathtaking blueberry eyes. Anyway, that's my poem about my own eyes. I'm pitching to my wife that maybe she could write about me, but I'll let her take it from here.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I love that joke. That's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'm gonna write that down for jokes and poems because I forgot that I'd written that. And I think that that's good for jokes and poems. Circling it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I'm gonna write you a poem someday that's called first generation Blueberry Eyes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I want to write something about how you've recently told me that you want me to take phone calls in the room that you're in.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay, here's the thing. Like, when you live with someone for like, what, 20 years or something?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So you have all these, like, patterns, and you have like these. This flow. And part of our flow, whether you realized it or not, was that you're always on the phone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Huh.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

And you'd be like, am I bothering you? And I would be like, no, it sounds like the ocean to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

True, sweet. It is something you say. It's really sweet.

[Mabel]

And then all of a sudden, you're.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Like, oh, it's Pete Holmes. I'm gonna go take that somewhere. I'm like, why? I haven't talked to Pete Holmes in, like, two years. Like, usually, like, we're all together.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It sounds like secretly you want to be an extrovert. You want extrovert privileges.

[Mabel]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You want to be in on a phone call, but you don't want to make the phone call.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That's right. Like, I want to chime in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you want to chime in. You want to be a sidecar on a motorcycle.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I miss Pete Holmes.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who doesn't?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

But also, it's just. It was part of the rhythms. I mean, I'm sure Pete's probably like, where's Jen? Does Mike even live with Jen anymore? Pete's totally gonna get this.

[Pete Holmes]

Pete's gonna get it all.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

We're on the air.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're on the podcast with Jenny.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Hi, Pete.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hi.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Pete. We were talking about our marriage, and.

[Pete Holmes]

It'S our anniversary today, so how perfect.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

How many years for you and Val?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yay.

[Pete Holmes]

Eight years. Sorry, Jen. I didn't mean to interrupt.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

No, Happy anniversary.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it's about you, Pete.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

We called you.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

If we're gonna call you and then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Congratulate you on your anniversary we didn't know about.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

That's why we're calling you about our marriage.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like someone saying, I want to talk to you about my birthday, and I have to say, hey, it's my birthday. That's not too far afield.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

It matters to us.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so should we tell him what? What we were just discussing? Okay.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you want Val in on this?

[Mike Birbiglia]

She's right here.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Val can absolutely be in this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She can be in on this.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Hey, Val.

[Val]

Hi, guys.

[Mabel]

Hey.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Happy anniversary.

[Val]

Thank you. I want to say it's eight years of marriage, but 13 years together. Don't you feel like you have to say the full.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah, we do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. We're 20. We're 20 together. Not to be competitive.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's 17. Married. Yeah. Wow.

[Val]

A couple years ago, I was 16.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So that's a great time to get married.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

So we're on our podcast right now talking about our marriage.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Wait.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. Jen wants to tell the story.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay. So most of you know how you live with someone and you have patterns and the flow of energy and everything, and Mike is someone who's always on the. Was always on the Phone in our relationship. Like, he'd be on the phone with Pete Holmes, and I would be like, hey, Petey, what's up, Pete? And I would get like, you know, and he would. Mike would always just be like, am I bothering you? And I'd be like, no. When you're on the phone, it sounds like the ocean to me. Like, I love it. Okay. And then all of a sudden, he's like, been like, oh, it's Pete. I'm just gonna go take this upstairs or whatever. And I'm just like, what? Why? I want you. I haven't talked to Pete in like two years. Right, Pete?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

There was more of a. Mike's my dad and you're my mom, and you pick up the extension and I'm calling from college.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Yes. And I love that.

[Mabel]

Yeah, that's right.

[Val]

I remember there being a lot. It was like a regular part of our day where Pete would be like, I was talking to Mike and Jenny and I was like, what? You guys are just all on the phone?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So cute.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, you know, just how Carl Reiner would shoot it.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

So, yeah, that was a part of our flow. And then all of a sudden it wasn't. And that's what we're talking about here.

[Mabel]

On the podcast today.

[Val]

I think my theory is that Mike is protecting you.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Yes. 100%. 100%.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I think.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

It is protection.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is protection.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I know, but I don't want the protection.

[Pete Holmes]

Let's take that. Thank you, Jen. And let's take that. A front off the table and say that what's really happening is in a world of two dads of daughters, married to women.

[Mike Birbiglia]

High five.

[Pete Holmes]

I think Mike and I. I never call him Mike. Mikey and I crave a little bit of bro time.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think, in fact, that's why I'm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Offering it Massachusetts bro time.

[Pete Holmes]

I think you would understand. That's why it's not even like an avoidance of talking shit. We don't talk about our lives. Mike has, like, melanomas and he's got some sort of up the dick procedure coming up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ne of these things are true. This is insane.

[Pete Holmes]

That's my point.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've really. This train has gone off the tracks.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just assuming you look like one of those transparent pieces of paper that you put on an overhead projector that, like, a sleepy dad writes equations on. Like, that's how you appear physically. So I'm assuming you have a lot. Like, you're the capsule around the nyquil tablet.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You mean.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

You mean in the sense of how much information I'm conveying, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, no.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean your physical. Like, if I was describing you to.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

The police, I'd say the guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, Petey, we gotta go.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Val, Petey.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Happy anniversary.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Happy anniversary, y'.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All. Love you.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Love you guys.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Bye.

[Pete Holmes]

Bye.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Bye. Well, that's. That resolves that.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Sure does.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Old Blueberry Eyes fixed it up. We're going to go for Working out for Cause. What is a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? And we, we. It's us contributing anyway, whenever we do this. So it's like, where should we contribute?

[Jenny Hope Stein]

I would like to contribute to the Children's Hospital in Los Angeles where the.

[Mabel]

Kimmels do a lot of work.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's a great idea. We will contribute to Children's Hospital Los Angeles. Jimmy Kimmel and Molly McNerney have done fantastic, amazing fundraising work for that organization. It's an unbelievable children's hospital. It's completely miraculous and amazing. And Jennifer Hopestein, AKA J. Hopestein.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

The.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Love of my life, the original Blueberry eyes point one point.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thank you for being here.

[Mabel]

I live here.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Working it Out.

[Jenny Hope Stein]

Cause it's not done.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

We're working it out because there's no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's gonna do it.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Jenny on Instagram jhopestein. Pick up her book Little Astronaut at your local bookstore. Makes a great gift for the holiday season. Check out burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and you'll be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out or myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Verbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. They just came out with an amazing album of their concert at Madison Square.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Garden, which I was at. It was so good.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Special thanks, of course, as always, to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My wife, the poet J.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really helps out out. We've created almost 200 episodes, all free. No paywall. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you're about to die in a plane crash.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're with your wife.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

You go, well, we could kind of argue about this plane crash and how it's going to go. Or maybe we could take our earbuds and we could put one of my ears in one of your ears. And we could listen to an episode of a beautiful podcast where creative folks talk about jokes and other acts of creation, and we're still gonna die.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But we'll enjoy these few minutes together.

[Mike Birbiglia (Host/Narrator)]

Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.