196. Michael Che: An Amateur Therapy Session

Summary

Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out
Episode 196: Michael Che – An Amateur Therapy Session
Released: December 15, 2025
Guest: Michael Che

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Episode Overview

In this especially candid and comedic edition of "Working It Out," Mike Birbiglia welcomes SNL’s Michael Che for a wide-ranging and vulnerable discussion. The two comics riff on the unique pressures of writing and performing for Saturday Night Live, the evolution of their comedic instincts, experimenting with untested material, and touching on the realities of both fame and anxiety within comedy. The episode is full of playful banter, workshop moments, and honest insights about originality, work-life balance, and the state of stand-up today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Fears of Overexposure & Podcasting Anxiety

• Che’s Podcast Hesitancy: Che admits to a “secret fear” of podcasts; he dreads overexposure and the looming risk of “ruining the set with those last five minutes” (04:46).
  • “I feel like the more you talk, the closer you are into danger.” – Michael Che [04:54]
• Mike’s Experience: Mike relates, saying he only started the podcast during the pandemic out of necessity, and found comfort in realizing “the people who like it, like it.”

The Evolution of Bar Shows and SNL Origins

• Comedy Roots in Bar Shows: Che reminisces about the golden age of bar shows, particularly Hannibal Buress’ Knitting Factory shows; notes that bar shows were once vital for comics to get noticed (07:17).
• Weekend Update Break: Che’s own SNL journey began when Colin Jost caught his set at Knitting Factory, inviting him for a two-week guest writing position that turned into his long-running tenure (07:23).

Learning the Job & SNL’s Unique Demands

• Chemistry & Finding ‘Natural’: Che discusses how, due to inheriting Seth Meyers’ writing staff, it took years for him and Jost to find their own voice on Weekend Update and establish chemistry (09:33–12:17).
  • “We had to learn how to do it. … There’s a rhythm to it, you know?” – Michael Che [10:22]
  • Reveals Lorne Michaels' recurring advice: “Stop auditioning for the job. You have it... We trust you.” (12:03)
• Live TV vs. Stand-Up: Nuanced differences between writing for SNL, internal monologue, and the muscle memory needed for delivering jokes live—with cue cards—especially as a stand-up (10:56).
• Peer Pressure and the Grind: The exhaustion and cyclical emotions after a season, debating whether or not to return (23:01–27:14).
  • “It’s draining more than any stand-up I’ve ever done, more than anything I’ve ever done.” – Michael Che [26:05]

The Anatomy & Origin of the Joke Swap

• Joke Swap Origins: What started as a way to give each other ‘bad jokes’ at the Weekend Update desk (during Christmas) morphed into the now-famous bit where Che and Jost blind-read each other's most cringe-inducing jokes (15:25–17:23).
  • “Just letting the audience know that these are bad jokes made them laugh hysterically.” – Michael Che [16:33]

Navigating Edgy Material & Audience Permission

• Audience Needs Permission: Both Che and Mike reflect on the psychology of laughter—how audiences seek permission before indulging in “edgy” material, and how context can be everything (17:35–18:52).
• Embracing Bombs: Che laughs off criticism about him laughing at his own jokes on Update:
  • “I’m not laughing at my joke—I’m laughing at you not laughing at my joke.” – Michael Che [20:30]

SNL’s Highs, Lows, and Michael Jost Rivalry

• Years of Criticism: Che openly discusses the rough early years on SNL, the sting of critics, and how the right chemistry and trust changed the dynamic (13:29–13:57).
• Norm Macdonald’s Influence: Both comics cite Norm as the sentimental favorite for his singular, personal rhythm (14:00–14:40).
• Michael’s Exit Rumors & Psychology: Che admits to fueling annual rumors about leaving SNL as a psychological trick—both for himself and his audience (23:17–24:18).
  • “Maybe for me, I need to tell myself I’m leaving so that I could stay.” – Michael Che [24:14]

Comedy and Originality in a Social Media Era

• Rethinking Joke Release: Che laments the rush for comics to post unrefined jokes online, rather than honing them live for months, out of pressure to ‘feed the content machine’ (44:19–46:01).
  • “To me, I just… I get terrified of just… putting out all your stuff as opposed to really working on it and then presenting it when it’s ready.” – Michael Che [46:01]

Honesty in Comedy & Personal Material

• Punching Inward: On his own sketch show—That Damn Michael Che—Che purposely made most sketches confessional and self-critical (48:04–49:09).
  • “I wasn’t afraid because I knew I wasn’t lying about me... I’m literally choking myself.” – Michael Che [48:45]
• No Lies on Stage: He emphasizes the cardinal rule: “As long as you’re not lying, you’re okay.”

Life’s Surprises & The Realities of Fame

• Fame vs. Expectations: Che never expected to find success in comedy and had a more modest city job in mind (57:54–58:24).
• Fame ≠ Hot Girl Privilege: A comic riff: “Hot women have it way better [than famous people].” (57:16).
  • Birbiglia: “Being famous is like being a hot woman.”
  • Che: “It’s not, man. Hot women have it way better.” [57:16]

On the Craft: Workshop Jokes & Audience Feedback

• Working Out Bits: Che shares a years-old but still-unresolved bit about the N-word and “furble”—inviting audience discomfort and playfully channeling the taboo (59:52–62:23).
• Comedy as Social Critique: Che and Mike riff on jokes about holidays, reparations, and collective historical denial (63:09–68:08).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Stop auditioning for the job. You have it…We trust you.”
– Lorne Michaels, quoted by Che [12:03]

“Just letting the audience know that these are bad jokes made them laugh hysterically.”
– Michael Che on the Joke Swap [16:33]

“It’s draining more than any stand-up I’ve ever done, more than anything I’ve ever done.”
– Michael Che on SNL’s demands [26:05]

“As long as you’re not lying, you’re okay. Like, you just don’t lie.”
– Michael Che on comedy’s rule [49:28]

“I just need you guys to fight for me.”
– Michael Che on his SNL departure rumors [24:22]

“To me, the worst thing you can do is burn material.”
– Michael Che on the modern comedy landscape [45:13]

“Fame is not as good as being a hot woman. Hot women have it better.”
– Michael Che [57:16]

“My biggest fear is walking into my living room, my whole family’s already there [for an intervention]…”
– Michael Che workshopping a drinking joke [70:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• SNL & Bar Show Origins: [07:17]
• Finding the Update Groove, Lorne’s Advice: [09:33–12:17]
• Chemistry, Cue Cards vs. Stand-up Skills: [10:56]
• Joke Swap Segment (origins & innovation): [15:25–17:23]
• Bombing and Audience Permission: [17:35–18:52]
• Why Che Says He’s Leaving SNL: [23:17–24:18]
• Fame, Anxiety, Therapy riff: [27:24–28:04]
• Crafting Personal/Edgy Comedy: [48:04–49:09]
• Posting Material vs. Honing It: [44:19–46:01]
• Workshopping The “Furble” Bit (taboo words): [59:52–62:23]
• Riffing on Holidays & Cultural Myths: [66:26–68:08]

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Additional Highlights

• On Eddie Murphy’s Superiority:
  “It’s discouragingly talented—I would say at comedy…he can just do anything, cold.” – Che on Eddie Murphy (32:23)
• Behind-the-Scenes of Update:
  Che describes pranking Colin Jost by telling the audience not to laugh at his jokes for April Fools (21:33–22:59)
• Personal Adversity:
  Che notes growing up in a house that relied on food banks and government support, which informs his empathy for others (51:04–52:16)
• Charity Plug:
  This week’s donation goes to New York Food Bank NGOs (73:51), prompted by Che's personal experience with food insecurity.

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Tone & Dynamic

The conversation is loose, introspective, and full of mutual respect. Birbiglia routinely expresses his admiration for Che’s voice in comedy, while Che is open about his insecurities, work ethic, and changing artistic environment. There’s classic comic ribbing (“I will not sit for any Lorne Michaels slander!” – Che [12:34]) and genuine moments of connection—what Birbiglia dubs a kind of “amateur therapy session.” Their discussion is shot through with observations about craft, shifting cultural standards, and the relentless need for both innovation and honesty in art.

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Recommended For:
Comedy fans, writers, SNL watchers, and anyone interested in the intersection of creative work, vulnerability, and the ever-changing landscape of comedy.

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Further Information

• Michael Che on Instagram: @chethinks
• Charity Highlight: Food Bank for NYC (and local equivalents—see show notes)
• Birbiglia Tour Dates & Text Alerts: birbiglia.com

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Transcript

[A]

Lorne used to always tell us. He used to always tell me, he used to be like, stop auditioning for the job. You have it nice. And it was frustrating as hell because I didn't know what it meant. And I think what I think he was trying to say was, you don't have to convince me. You can do it. Just do what you do. We trust you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, we started to do that. And the things that started to work were the things that felt the most natural. So we just steered toward that.

[B]

Think about how many people he said that to before he fired them.

[A]

I will not sit here for any Lorne Michaels slander. That man has never fired anyone. Everyone's quit and giving up on him.

[B]

That is the voice of the great Michael Che. Oh, man, am I excited. Since the dawn of this podcast five and a half years ago, I have said to my wife Jenny every couple months, maybe someday Michael Che will be on the podcast. One of my favorite comics. And after all this time it's happened and man, was it a great conversation. It was very vulnerable and instructive. I learned a lot. Michael Che is one of the funniest people I've ever encountered in comedy. One of the most thoughtful people. He, of course, he's the co host of Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live with Colin Jost. He has two comedy specials that are great. Michael Che Matters and Shame the Devil, both on Netflix. Thanks everybody who has signed up for Working It Out Premium. It really helps us out here at the show. You're supporting the show. We work really hard on the show. We really care about it. Here's what you get if you sign up for Working It Out Premium on Apple Podcasts. You get no ads in any of the shows. We have all, you know, 200 episodes which are all free, but then you get em without ads. And then you get these premium episodes we recently did with one with Pete Holmes where Pete and I work out jokes sent in from listeners. So click on that on Apple Podcasts and we really appreciate it. By the way, thanks to everyone who has signed up for the text message alerts. We actually are going to be using them. I'm going to be working out material in small comedy clubs in the new year in Philadelphia, Palm Beach, Florida, Madison, Wisconsin, Buffalo, New York, Raleigh, North Carolina, Los Angeles, Nashville and other cities. So to be the first to know because these are small shows and I think they'll sell out really quick. So it's really easy to do. You just text 917-444-4715, 0. You text the word birbigs B I R B I G S and you'll be the first to know about those shows. Also, if you're in New York City, I'll be appearing in the Broadway show all out from January 13th through January 18th alongside Cecily Strong, Wayne Brady and others. All out is of course written by the great Simon Richard, a writer who's done work for the New Yorker and Saturday Night Live and just so many things. It is a follow up to his show all in, which I saw last year, which is fantastic. I'm very honored to be a part of it. Tickets@allout broadway.com. this is a great conversation with Michael Che. I think you're gonna love it. We talk about snl, we talk about his first time on stage. We talk about his famous joke swap with Colin Jost. Enjoy my conversation with the great Michael Che. Working it. First of all, thanks for coming. You. Jenny said today. Jenny goes. When you started the podcast five and a half years ago, you were like, maybe Che will do it. Oh, yeah, I'm doing it, baby. Of course.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

This is like your timeline. I feel like. I ask you. I feel like our relationship is such that I'm comfortable asking you for a thing once a year. But isn't there an etiquette to that?

[A]

Yeah, I think there's an etiquette, but it's also. That doesn't apply, I don't think.

[B]

You don't think so?

[A]

I don't think there's a. I don't really think so. Okay, well, for you, like, I don't think that applies.

[B]

I don't know, man. Cause you also trash podcasts in your Instagram stories, and it's hilarious. But you kill podcasts.

[A]

I love podcasts.

[B]

You don't.

[A]

I'm always worried about. I'm always worried about doing them. I think I'm, like, secretly afraid of them.

[B]

Do you think so?

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Cause it's a lot. You're like. I feel like the more you talk, the closer you are into danger. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like that, you know, like, in a way, like, you could be doing an hour, but if you do that hour five, that last five minutes could ruin the whole hour. Yes. I feel like podcasts is that five minutes overexposure the set. Yeah. You're just like, yeah, man, I should have got off on that laugh. You know what I mean? That's. That's how I feel.

[B]

That is so.

[A]

But for a career you know, I've had the.

[B]

I had the same fear about doing this podcast in the first place.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I only did it because of Pandemic. For years, people like you should do podcasts. I was like, nah, too much me.

[A]

Yeah, it's a lot too much me.

[B]

And then I was like. And then I had to do it because no one was getting on stage. I was like, oh, I'll just do comedy, except on.

[A]

On.

[B]

On the radio. And then it's like, the longer I did it, I was like, nah, it's fine. Because. Because the people. You know why it's not overexposure? Because the people who like it, like it. People who don't, don't. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

[A]

But isn't that, like, what do we do it for? It's like, when it's fun, right? To me, like, that's like, the best case scenario is just to do it when it's fun.

[B]

It seems like that's what your show last night is, right? At Hannibal's place.

[A]

Yes, at Isola. Oh, snap. You.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You gotta come by.

[B]

I'm gonna come.

[A]

He closed it out. It was. It was a blast, man. It was like, you know, like, remember Hannibal used to do Knitting Factory?

[B]

I know.

[A]

In that same location. And.

[B]

And then he bought it.

[A]

Then he bought it. So this is sort of like our way of bringing back Sundays, you know?

[B]

I think it's great.

[A]

It's so much fun.

[B]

And so you're gonna do it every week.

[A]

It used to be every comedian coming up used to have a bar show.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Like, that used to be the thing. And now I feel like nobody has them.

[B]

I wonder. Let me ask Gary and Mabel. They're comics. People have bar shows at a bar.

[A]

Yeah. Well, this is how I find out. I'm out of touch.

[B]

I think they're tough.

[A]

I don't. I don't know. Every time I ask comedians, I'm like, what's, like, the hot shows going? And everybody's like, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that.

[B]

Is that crazy?

[A]

Am I making that up?

[B]

You must be a star of a hit television show.

[A]

But there used to be. Yeah, I saw Robin Williams at the Knitting Fact. I saw Chanel at the Knitting Factory.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I saw everybody there. That's how I got SNL was at the Knitting Factory.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Jost came by. He was head writer at the time. No, at the Knitting Factory. And he was like, dude, you gotta come to snl.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I got a two week, like, guest writing deal. And then they asked me to stay. I've been there since.

[B]

That's unbelievable.

[A]

That used to happen. Has that happened at a bar show yet? Thank you. That's what I'm talking about.

[B]

Never happens at bar shows anymore.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about.

[B]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[A]

And that's a true story. Wow. He was head writer with Seth at the time, and he's been living in.

[B]

Your shadow ever since.

[A]

He's. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. No, yeah, he was head writer with Seth at the time, and they was doing, like, this two week program where he was bringing in two different writers, I think Peretti.

[B]

I remember that.

[A]

Yeah. Peretti came, I think, like the term right before me.

[B]

So you did a guest. You did two weeks of guest writing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it went well. And then it went.

[A]

I wouldn't say it went well. It went decent. It was. I mean, they hired me, so you gave me on. I got. Yeah, I did get something on.

[B]

Why you like.

[A]

Because it would never get on today. Oh, really? Oh, my God. Yeah.

[B]

Can you say what it is?

[A]

It's rough. It's pretty rough.

[B]

You got to say it.

[A]

Well, it was a. It was a romantic comedy called She's Got a Dick. And it was. It was at the time. You have to remember, this was. This was a long time ago, but it was really funny. And.

[B]

And I don't recall that.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's been scrubbed from the Internet.

[B]

But it was.

[A]

It was like a. It was just like a fun trailer.

[B]

Sure. Wow. Yeah. That's so funny because I always.

[A]

It foreshadowed my entire writing career there.

[B]

Well, no, what's funny is when I think about what you and Jost do, it is so damn reliable every week, and it's actually edgy on network tv, I think.

[A]

Oh. Oh, thank. First of all, thank you. But it's hard for me to ever see it that way. Cause I remember when it was the exact opposite for so long. So it feels like it's like, you know, I remember it being terrible. So for it to be something that people like is just, like, still kind of bizarre.

[B]

That's so funny. What period of time do you think it wasn't good?

[A]

Oh, for the first few years, it was rough. It was really rough. But it was like. It was hard to do. Like, to be honest with you, I feel like I can say it to you because you'll know what I mean. You usually say in interviews and stuff, and if you don't tell jokes or write jokes, you won't know what the fuck you're talking about. But I feel like there was a time when Seth did it before us. And so Seth's writers. We inherited Seth's writers. So when they're writing jokes for Seth, it's different than writing jokes for me. So for me in particular, it was hard for me to learn how to do update and tell a joke that I would tell as opposed to a joke that they give me to tell, of course. And so I had to learn how to do it. And also, reading a joke and telling a joke is so tricky because your mind is going two different places. Like, every word has a music to it to make the joke land. So when you're just reading it on a page, you don't just read it and it works. It's gotta. Like, there's a rhythm to it, you know? So remembering the rhythm on cards, it's almost better to just remember the joke than it is to read the joke.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And I feel like for joke writers, they don't really understand that as much. And joke tellers get it. That's why, if you ever watch snl, not all the time. There's, like, a few exceptions, but usually standups have the hardest time with cards. And it's not because we can't read them. It's just because we're making choices on every word in a way that I don't think actors typically do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just from what I've seen. So that was, like, the trickiest part. For years. It took us, like, two or three years before we could kind of, like, figure out a groove of, all right, you do these kinds of jokes, I'll do these kinds of jokes. And then we could kind of have fun and learn, you know, and we can balance each other. And also just, like, finding that chemistry when we're always in a single was, like, tricky, too. Just figuring out how to stay alive when he's telling jokes and how to make it seem like we're in the same building. Because so much of it is reaction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then it's like small things that just matter so much more than knowing when.

[B]

The camera's on you.

[A]

Yeah. And Lorne used to always tell us. He used to always tell me. He used to be like, stop auditioning for the job. You have it.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And it was frustrating as hell because I didn't know what it meant. And I think what I think he was trying to say was, you don't have to convince me. You can do it. Just do what you do. We trust you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, we started to do that, and the things that started to work were the things that felt the most natural. So we just steered toward that, and then it got pretty decent.

[B]

Think about how many people he said that to before he fired them.

[A]

I will not sit here for any Lorne Michaels slander. That man has never fired anyone. Everyone's quit and given up on him.

[B]

No, that is.

[A]

No. Yeah, dozens.

[B]

Yeah, of course. But that's great advice.

[A]

It's great advice. And it's also like, thanks for anything. He says stuff that you're just like. You forget. He's like a one of one in this business. Of how much like this guy. Usually when you have a show and Will Ferrell is your star and he leaves, that show's off the air.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, typically. Or Tina Fey's your head writer and she leaves. Usually it's hard to bounce back. This guy's like, you don't get bigger. Yeah, you don't get bigger. And the turnover that he's had to do, he's had to watch Bill Murray leave. You know what I mean? It's like. It's crazy what he's seen and how often he's had to do this.

[B]

It's so funny that you talk about that. The first few years, you guys struggle. Because I was watching that period. I didn't clock it.

[A]

Oh, you must not read the reviews.

[B]

No, I don't. I don't read the reviews.

[A]

No. Yeah, we definitely stunk. But it's okay.

[B]

You guys, I think, and Norm are probably the best to do it.

[A]

Well, Norm is, I think, everybody's sort of sentimental favorite.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

That's by far my favorite. Just because of the way he did it. The way he approached it was just. It's a thing that you just can't do anymore, you know? Like, it didn't matter if it worked in the room or not. Like, you know, like, he kind of has a. He had a way of doing it where it was just like, oh, this is just Norm stuff. And you could forget about any notes.

[B]

It's a perfect example of, like, the thing you're talking about. Of, like, not reading the rhythm of the cards. Cause he just talked the way he talked.

[A]

He just talked the way he talked. And he found it. He found what? Like, when he told the joke, you knew he thought it was funny. Yeah. And that was all that was important to him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was. It makes it funny. Cause it feels like it's a joke between him and the audience. Even when Even when the studio audience isn't laughing at home, you're like, oh, this is amazing. You're watching this guy kind of do whatever he wants. There's sort of a freedom to that. And I think, like, the show is scrutinized in a way that I don't think it was before social media.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like Norm would have been killed.

[A]

It would have been tough to get away with that now. Yeah. Every week, but.

[B]

But you guys get away with a lot. I mean, the joke swap, I think, is one of the most innovative joke constructs I've seen written in years.

[A]

That's another. That was, like, a weird. That's another thing that it was like, those were all jokes that we would do at dress that would not work. They were bombed. That's why we did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, the bit started because we had all these jokes that we loved that would kill us in the room. And then we tell them at dress, and it would just. We would get iced. I remember one time. I don't know if it was me or Jost, but I remember we told the joke, and it was just. It was so quiet, and one lady just yelled, no.

[B]

It was like, that was it in the dress rehearsal.

[A]

In the dress rehearsal, it was like, no. And we were like, no. Wow. Okay. But, like, so we would have those jokes. We'd have, like, stockpiled those jokes. So we thought. I think it was like, Tina and Amy or somebody was hosting, and they came on the update desk, and we was like, for Christmas, let's do something where we give each other a joke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, we give each other a joke as, like, here's a joke that bombed that you loved, and you get to say it for Christmas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just changing. It was the same jokes that died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But just letting the audience know that these are bad jokes made them laugh hysterically. It was just like, an odd. Just the context changed.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

And then he was like, oh, let's do it again. Jokes came up, and he was like, let's do it again. But, like, let's do it blind. You don't know when I'm gonna tell. You know what I mean? Like, you tell me what to say, and I tell you what to say, and then let's see who. So I'm thinking, he's trying to trap me. So I'm like, oh, this guy's trying to trick me and get me to say something terrible. I'll show him. So I wrote new ones that were horrific and we get to air. And he wasn't trying to trap me at all. It was just a regular thing. So I went so hard, I overkilled. And then that's kind of been the rhythm of it now. He's been trying to get me back, and I'm trying to, like, one up. And I'm always paranoid, thinking that they're all gonna get me. And then it's. I'm always overshooting it.

[B]

Well, it's funny. Like, there's certain. It's a great testament to. Sometimes jokes need a reconfiguration for the audience. Like a recontextualization.

[A]

Yeah. I think a lot of times the audience. A lot of times audiences just want to know it's okay to laugh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, they. I think, like, the way comedians or the way people feel judged by, like, you know, I don't want to say this and get in trouble. I think audiences feel like I don't want to laugh and get in trouble, you know, like. Yeah, we do. Like, you do, like, a corporate thing, and the boss is there and nobody wants to laugh, or somebody's with their wife. They don't want to laugh at certain things. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, like, there's always this tension, by the way you do corporate events. I've done, like. I've done, like, two.

[B]

I've done, like, two. Like, what?

[A]

I did one this year.

[B]

Company.

[A]

I did one Company. I don't even know what was that.

[B]

You won't offend anybody.

[A]

No, I did. We did one. We did one for, like, some. Some tech thing in, like, the Manhattan center or something.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

This year, very rare.

[B]

Someone's getting fired.

[A]

I say no to all of that stuff, but I'm sure. But it's that, you know, like. You know what I'm. You know what I mean? Of course. It's always, like, people trying to. Trying to find permission to laugh and trying to feel free to laugh. So if you set the stage of this is bad. You don't. It's okay. They sort of are like, oh, that's really funny that you thought that would work.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

Then the joke becomes. I can't believe you made him say this thing.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

As opposed to, I'm laughing at this hard Jo joke. Even though you kind of are laughing.

[B]

I had a thing. We had a thing in Sleepwalk with Me, my movie, where my character is really unlikable, doing some crazy. And so in the edit, I just say before I tell you this Part of the story. I want to remind you, you're on my side. And then. And then it did great.

[A]

Then it solved everything, Softens everything. It.

[B]

Because the. The audience is like, oh, okay, I get it. He knows he's being a little shitty, and so we're okay allowing for that.

[A]

But that's that standup instinct. Like, I guarantee you, if you'd never done standup, you wouldn't know that that would be the fix.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Cause you wouldn't. Like, we know game speed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We know we get to see the joke as soon as we find out a joke's not good. As soon as it comes out of our mouths. And the same time as the audience finds out it's not good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause there's stuff that I've definitely said that I was like, why would I ever think that could work? That's not funny to me or anybody, but. Right. I said it. I couldn't wait to tell this joke. But I think there's. There's something to that for performing jokes that you kind of get. It sharpens that instinct a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Pete Holmes was saying on the show last week, and I think he's right. It's like. It's like when you're starting out, you have to remind yourself that it has to make you laugh.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because sometimes you're like, no, no, this is funny. It doesn't make me laugh, but it's funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And somebody. No, no, no. It actually has to make you laugh.

[A]

It makes me, like, I get in trouble sometimes on the Internet for, like, laughing at my jokes on Update.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. But I don't think people realize I'm not laughing at my joke. I'm laughing at you not laughing at my joke.

[B]

Or that's fun. Or laughing or laughing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm laughing at the audience's reaction.

[B]

That's a hard thing to explain to people sometimes. They'll see me laugh on stage. I'm like, no, I'm laughing at you.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's funny to watch you process this.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Because I know what I think, and I'm watching you react in the same way. Like, it's that. I think people miss that.

[B]

Odds are, you thought about it for, like, 10 hours, so you've had a lot of time to think about how they'll react to it.

[A]

Exactly. It's like. It's fun. It's like, just like showing a baby magic, you know? It's kind of like, wow, it's fun to do.

[B]

Was There ever a joke swap where you were like, now, this is too far. We're gonna have to cut this.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

I've. I've known some that they thought I should cut. They were really. They were really scared about the. They were really scared about the April Fool's one.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah. For April Fools, I did this thing where I told the audience not to laugh at anything. Colin said.

[B]

Oh, God. Without telling him.

[A]

Without telling him. I told the audience in holding, like, hey, when Colin comes out, don't laugh at anything he says.

[B]

This is so good.

[A]

And I wanted to do it for like, a whole segment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were like, you can't do that to him. You can't do it. I was like, it's funny. I was like, the longer it goes. And it was like, you can't do it. So we, like, negotiated it down to, like, two or three jokes, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I was kind of mad about. Cause I think it's funnier the longer it goes. But it ended up being okay. And I remember at one point, no one laughs. And then I tell my first joke, and it gets a huge laugh. And then he goes again. No one laughs again. It's like, real, Real tepid. And then he writes down on the book. As I'm telling the joke, I can see him writing. It's like, this is the worst update I've ever done. He's, like, spinning. And then finally we let him in on it. Cause I had someone yell, you stink from the audience. And then we just, like, let him in, and he's literally like, that was a tough one for him to recover from. I remember thinking, like, afterwards, like, I'm glad we only did it for two or three jokes.

[B]

Cause you do it for air or you do it just for dress.

[A]

We do it for air. Not a dress at all. Not a dress at all.

[B]

That's unbelievable.

[A]

That was really mean. It was really mean. That was one that I was like, oh, yeah, I probably.

[B]

How come every year on SNL in the summer, there's, like, headlines that are like, che's not coming back?

[A]

I think it's because I keep posting that I'm not coming back.

[B]

Is that what it is?

[A]

I think that's why I think they're getting that from me now.

[B]

What is the psychology of this? Every year? Do you actually think you're not coming back?

[A]

Yeah, I always think I'm not coming back.

[B]

And what happens?

[A]

I don't know. I think I get it from my mom, you know, like, every Year, my mom complains about, like, doing Thanksgiving and how much she has to do for Thanksgiving, and she has to, like, stay up all night, and she always. And everybody's like, well, why don't you just not do it? We'll go somewhere else. And she's like, well, then y' all gonna complain like, no, we won't complain. But she has to do that. She has to tell herself that she has to do it, even though she doesn't want to do it, so that everybody can say, well, we're glad you did it. I don't know. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe for me, I need to tell myself I'm leaving so that I could stay.

[B]

We're glad you did it.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

We're glad you did it.

[A]

I'm so glad.

[B]

Is that. And that's why I'm so glad. That's why you do this every year.

[A]

I just need you guys to fight for me.

[B]

And you guys to fight for me.

[A]

Just fight for me.

[B]

This is crazy.

[A]

No. I don't know. I do think, psychologically, I always try. It's a exhausting season.

[B]

Well, it is. And also, by the way, I mean, Chris Rock loves you. You know that. You're friends with Chris.

[A]

I love Chris. Yeah.

[B]

He's always like, if Che left the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, if Che left the show, he'd be the biggest comedian on the planet.

[A]

Yeah. That's what you want to hear from your heroes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you'd be great if you leave. No, I, I. It's a lot. It's a lot when you really, really care. I'll say that. Because it could also be a real little bit, of course, but it's a lot when you trying to be like, I don't know what it is, but on a, like, that Sunday, after a Saturday, I could sleep 12 hours straight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's exhausting. I don't know why. Like, you could have one sketch in, but it takes, like, every single part of your. Because there's so many moving parts. Like, people see the show and they critique it, or they say it's not funny or whatever, that could all be true. I'm not here to campaign for the merit. For the merit of how funny or not funny it is. But I will say the amount of work that goes into what you see, everybody that criticizes, I wish they could just watch it one time live, so they could appreciate that this is the thing that's never coming back once it's gone. You know, like, this is. This will never be greenlit again.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

That's so true.

[A]

And I've seen everybody. I've seen everybody in awe. Every. Everybody. That is your hero. I've seen them say, oh, my God, how are we gonna do this by Saturday?

[B]

That's hilarious.

[A]

You know what I mean? So, like, it is something that it's special. So when you care, when you're really competing, when you're really trying to get something to work, it's draining more than any standup I've ever done, more than anything I've ever done. So, yeah, by the time you've done 20 of them in a year, you're like, I don't want to do this again. You know? And then you kind of have a summer. You have a summer where you start to sort of hear people say, you know, boy, we love this. Good job. You know, they remember, like, two or three moments of all the stuff you've done. They remember, like, two or three things you've done, and they're like, oh, man, I love that. I can't wait till it comes back. Or anything that happens in the news, you get. Your inbox gets flooded with, oh, you guys gotta do this. And it makes you care about going back, and you get excited about going back, and then there's new talent coming in, and then you find out about who's hosting, and it just. It makes you want to go back. So it is kind of cyclical of emotions, but, yeah, it's.

[B]

I bet it's like. It's like living in New York. It's like when you live in New York, you think everything is happening in New York. When you work at snl, you're like, it all happens here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a. That's a great point too. Yeah. Wow. You do therapy?

[B]

I have a third. I've had a therapist 20something years.

[A]

You know, like a good. You'd be a good therapist if you. You should just do, like, amateur therapy.

[B]

I think if it goes.

[A]

If it all, you know, people do amateur porn. You should do amateur therapy because, like, amateur porn is better than regular porn. Amateur therapy might be better.

[B]

No, amateur therapy could be huge.

[A]

Could be huge.

[B]

You know, amateur therapy could be thousand dollars an hour, easily.

[A]

Especially if it's funny from Birbilia. I would do it. I would pay $1,000 just to see what it is.

[B]

You're on it.

[A]

You're on it right now. I just got two, like, resolutions just now.

[B]

What'd you get?

[A]

The New York thing. That's.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you also said thank you.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I appreciate you.

[A]

I do. That's more than both of my parents has ever done for me. Right there.

[B]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comedy.

[A]

I'll stop it. Seriously.

[B]

Serious. I never say this on the show, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel so much gratitude for your comedy. I really do.

[A]

That blows my mind. Seriously.

[B]

Yeah, man. Oh, when you were.

[A]

I gotta go call Lauren. Quit this show.

[B]

Foreign. Is brought to you by Helix. You feel that chill in the air. Winter is here. I love my Helix mattress even more during the winter. It's cozy, it's comfortable. I remember when I used to sleep on an air mattress many years ago in my apartment in Queens. Not exactly a comfort at the end of a cold winter day, but now that I have the Helix mattress, it's exactly where I want to be when the temperatures drop. You should remember that a good night's sleep is even more important during cold and flu season. I'm always thinking about that. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the us. Shopping for everyone else is nice, but don't forget to give yourself the gift of a good night's sleep. Sleep. Sleep is so important. It's the most important thing. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 27% off site wide. This is exclusive for listeners of Mike Birbigli's Working It Out. That's helixsleep.combrabigs for 27% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name in the post purchase survey so they know we sent you. We appreciate it. Helixsleep.com Briggs support for working it out comes from Rula. I'm a huge advocate of therapy. I've said this on the show a lot before. I've been in therapy for 20 plus years. Anyway, Rula is great for providing better access to therapy. No wait lists, no frustrating back and forth. Rula makes it easy to find a mental health provider who's accepting new patients and appointments are available as soon as tomorrow. Plus, Rula sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is helping you move forward, making sure their providers are carefully screened and vetted, monitoring the quality of their care and helping you monitor your progress in therapy. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey towards improved mental health and overall well being. Head on over to rula.com burbigs to get started today. After you sign up, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Go to r u l a.combrbigs and take the first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. Murphy, documentary. You were saying when Eddie was on, it was the most stressful week when he came back.

[A]

I didn't see that.

[B]

You didn't see the documentary?

[A]

I can't watch. Really? No.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I don't know. It's too weird because you're too close to it somehow. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

But what did he say?

[B]

It's a good documentary.

[A]

I've heard it's great. I mean, it's Eddie.

[B]

It's really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually, like, was kind of blown away by. Because I thought I knew everything. And then it's like, oh, you know, you get to know much more.

[A]

I'm gonna force myself to watch.

[B]

The sense I got from it is like, he's pretty grounded.

[A]

It was kind of all these years.

[B]

Of being a star for 50 years.

[A]

It makes no sense that he could.

[B]

No, it makes no sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's crazy is in the documentary also go, like, first six months of the show, he would take the subway back, stay and live his parents.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

When he's on the show.

[A]

Yeah. That's like when the Yankees used to take the train. Yeah, that's. That'. That's crazy. Yeah. I will say that of all the people that we've had, we've had literally everybody. Nobody was Eddie Murphy.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

It's crazy how good he is at sketch comedy.

[B]

What's crazy?

[A]

He's embarrassingly talented. It's discouragingly talented. I would say at comedy, he can just do anything cold. Like what I was saying. Oh, you make a choice on network, it's hard for standing. None of that applies to anywhere. None of it. You could literally. He can do anything as funny as anybody.

[B]

Right. He's got, like, Michael Jordan level superiority.

[A]

It's unfair. It's really unfair. It's kind of like. It's more like LeBron in a way. I think Michael Jordan is the greatest, by the way. I'm not trying to haggle, But I'm saying LeBron in a way of like. Like, Michael Jordan still looks like other basketball players. Like, when you see LeBron, you're just like, well, nobody's that. You know what I mean? Or like, he's like, nobody's six, nine and runs like that and does, like. No one does that part. You Forget how crazy LeBron actually looked like. That's what Eddie is. Where you're just like, well, nobody can do everything. And he can do everything.

[B]

He can do everything.

[A]

Literally everything.

[B]

And stand up.

[A]

And stand up. Still copying his stand up 35 years later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Still. It's crazy.

[B]

At the end of the snl, the Good nights, people always talk on Reddit. There's a whole Reddit thread about how you don't say good night.

[A]

They. They notice that. Well, it used to be. Come on, hang on, come on, hang on, hang on. There used to be a time where there was. There was so many people in the cast where you. You might not have noticed. I haven't been on. On good nights in a very long time, but usually there was so many people, like, how could you keep. Keep up? There's a lot of people on that stage. Usually it started, like, I would skip, like, one or two, just kind of decompressing or, you know, like, I'm in my dressing room, like, you know, just like, ugh, the show's over with everything. But, oh, I missed good nights. Then I found out no one cared if you missed it as much. And then I just stopped.

[B]

Do you go home? No, because I've gone to the after party, and I don't think I've ever seen you again.

[A]

A lot of times at the after party, I don't really like to go to the after party too much because it's a slippery slope. You go to the after party one time, you go to after party, and then you end up at the after after party, and then you end up coming home at like, 9am and then your whole Sunday's gone.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the good nights. Yeah, Then it just kind of been, like. Then it was like, funny, like, how many can I miss? And now when I'm gonna start going. Because I. I really didn't know. People knew. My mother said. Mentioned it one time, and I was.

[B]

Like, oh, yeah, she's on the Reddit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, she's on. She probably started it. Yeah. Oh, damn. I didn't know. Okay, well, here's what. I'm coming back.

[B]

Here's what Joe said. Joe's goes. I go, jose, you have a question for Che? He says, if you could have dinner with anyone named Hitler, living or dead, who would you choose?

[A]

Kanye. No. Kanye? No. Oof. That's a terrible question.

[B]

And then the other thing he says is, where'd you get that really cool Knicks jacket I saw you wearing today? Must have been a great friend with cool style. Bought it as a thoughtful present. And, wow, Kwanza's right around the corner. Have you bought that friend any special gifts yet?

[A]

Just. You got to tell me how he spelled Kwanzaa. I just want to know. You got it right.

[B]

He got K, W, N, Z, A.

[A]

A. Oh, not bad.

[B]

I think that's it, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Count it. What's crazy is, like, I didn't know this until I. Because I've known you for 15 years. Probably, like, forever. Like, before us?

[A]

Pretty much, yeah. Remember we went to Australia?

[B]

Yeah, we went to Australia. It was us and Pete Holmes celebrated Pete Holmes's birthday in Australia.

[A]

First time I ever played tennis.

[B]

We played tennis at that person's. Oh, my God. At that.

[A]

What was House.

[B]

I don't know what that was. That was crazy. I forgot that until. You're just saying it. Yeah. They were like, we're in Australia at the Melbourne Festival. You, me, Pete Holmes, David o'. Doherty.

[A]

David o'. Doherty.

[B]

And they were like, do you guys want to go? A bunch of us, like, to the country? And we were like, yeah, we'll go to the country. We're thinking it's going to be Australia. Kind of like sea, wildlife, animals, et cetera. They just drive us to, like, some rich person's house who has a vineyard.

[A]

Kind of thing or something like that.

[B]

We were kind of all like. Like, this is so far. Like, two and a half hours away.

[A]

Yeah, it was super far.

[B]

Super far. And then we got there. We're like, this is like America.

[A]

Yes. That. That was. That was crazy to just see how people, like. I'd never seen anybody that rich before. Did you grow up, like, around, like, a lot of money?

[B]

I did not grow up around a lot of money. I feel like when I was in college, I started to know people where they'd have a lot of money and go, oh, okay. When was the first time you met people with money?

[A]

When I was in high school. I never went to college. When I was in high school, I went to LaGuardia Performing Arts. And it's a public school, but you have to audition to get in. So that means there would be kids there that had a ton of money, and there'd be kids like me who didn't do anything. But I remember I was in a class with this kid. To this day, I don't remember his name because I didn't call him by his name. I called him Matt. Long story, but I remember Seinfeld was visiting the school. Yeah, Jerry Seinfeld was visiting the school. And Seinfeld had just went off the air, and it was like, no one's seen Jerry Seinfeld. Right. And he came to the school, and this kid was like, yeah, Seinfeld's coming. He lives in my building in Central Park.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I was like. I couldn't grasp that. I was in a class with a kid that lived in Seinfeld's building. Like, what? I didn't know that that was a thing. I never met anybody like that that owned anything. You know what I mean? It was just crazy.

[B]

So when you. The thing I read that I never knew is you went to LaGuardia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you were printing shirts and selling them on the street. Is that true?

[A]

Don't make it sound so glamorous. But it was that glamorous.

[B]

You were printing shir.

[A]

Oh, yeah. When I. Well, okay. Yeah, that was like a. There was like, a street wear kind of craze where a lot of people were trying to be independent fashion T shirt designers.

[B]

Okay. It's like early 2000s kind of thing.

[A]

Early 2000s kind of thing. I got caught up in that wave, and it cost me some money, but it was fun.

[B]

But you. But you got a job at Tommy Hilfiger because of it.

[A]

One time. Yeah. There was one time I was on the street and Tommy Hilfiger's son and some friends, long story short was they saw my shirts, they liked them, and they was like, yo, you should come. I'm gonna bring my dad. And I was like, okay, whatever. And not too long after, his dad pulls up and he's like, I love your stuff. He's like, why don't you come to the house? So I went to their house in Connecticut, and they were really nice, and I brought some stuff, and he was showing me his art. He had, like, all these crazy Warhols, and it was nuts. And that was, like, the first time I ever seen that type of thing. I guess that's the first time I ever seen it.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And then he asked me to come to his job, like, his office, which was, like, on the west side, like, meat packing somewhere. And he went to the studio. I went to the studio. He took me to the studio to do, like, some designs. He wanted to do some new logos. And he, like, introduced me to everybody in that department. Like, he, like, brought me to meet all these people. Like, hey, this is. This kid's good, and all of this stuff. And I'm like, this is terrifying. And then he set me up with a desk and a computer and. Yeah, that's it.

[B]

And then you worked there for a couple years and.

[A]

No, no, no. Did not work there for a couple years. I did some designs, and then I said, you know, I think I'm just more comfortable working from home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was like, yeah, go work from home. Just come back when you want. I just never went back.

[B]

Oh, wow. You meant literally, I would like to work from home. Okay, I'll be at home.

[A]

I talked to him, too, recently. I talked to him not too long ago when we laughed about it, but it was just. Yeah. It was, like, terrified, I think I was just, like, terrified of the opportunity.

[B]

And then when you were at LaGuardia, were you like, I'm gonna be a comedian? Like, when did it occur to you?

[A]

It occurred to me when. I don't know. I felt I was bummed out about the Hilfiger thing. I was bummed out about. I just didn't know what to do. I felt like I, like, blew a chance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, you know, I'm just gonna start trying stuff that I just want to try while I'm still young enough to try it. I was like, 25 or something, and I was like, just try it. And I just tried stand up. But stand up was it. I mean, it was probably the same for you, but, like, it just felt like I spoke the language quick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I. Like, I just understood it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It felt like my first language.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, my brain. My brain thought in that I didn't have to, like, try to figure out how a joke could work.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I feel like with art, I had to, like, try to figure out what it is I wanted to do on different other mediums. I was like, I had to figure it out. But standup was just more like, oh, this is, like, my first language. So it just. I never thought about anything else after that that.

[B]

Did your first open mic go well?

[A]

I don't know. It was like, if it was like the first time, being on an airplane, it was just. It was like. Like, I just felt different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it just. I was looking. I don't know what I said. I don't even know what. What happened. I just. It felt different. It was like, oh, this fits, you know? It was like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It was crazy. You ever see, like, a. Those videos? Like, somebody could hear for the first time or something like that. It's just like, the way they light up. That's how I felt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't even know if it went well. It went well for me because I knew that was all I was gonna do. Right. I did the Comedy. I think it was called the Comedy Corner. Right. Right down the block on McDougal. Right after that, I went to the Pit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that same day. Had that bad Slava list. You know the Bad Slava list? No, there was this list where you could. They had every single open mic in the city, and they would. They would. They would post it, like, once a week. Right. And I just. Would copy the list and I would just go to every single open. I would go up, like, six times a day.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Five to six times a day. And then. Yeah, it was. It was just like the most thrilling shit.

[B]

That's like the quintessential thing that I always tell young comics when they want to want advice is just like, there's no substitute for doing it.

[A]

None. It's like being a cop. Like, you could not learn how to do it in a book. You have to be in the field.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have to be in the field.

[B]

There's just nothing you can. There's nothing you can do. You have to go to these terrible open mics.

[A]

I'm glad you tell people this too, because I do think there's something missing in the way we wanted to do comedy. I think it's a little different for comedians that are starting it now. Like, what they want out of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Cause I feel like there's been a change in. I wanna say this right. I don't wanna sound like an old, bitter dude, but I do think that it used to be like, you. Like, I'll see comics now. They'll post every joke that they working on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to me, I'm like, that's the scariest thing in the world. Like, what? Give it time. You know, you just came up with that joke. Like, why would you post a joke doing medium? Wouldn't you want to work that for a year and get that perfect? Like, to me, the worst thing you can do is burn material.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, even still, like, I hold on to jokes that it could be two, three years old, but I'm like, ah, it's not ready yet. You know what I mean? And I think that that's a flaw of a different nature or in a different direction. But I do think that there's a lot of comics who believe that just putting stuff out is more important than putting the best thing out.

[B]

Yeah. But I think it's like, it's because of the media environment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Rewards people releasing a lot of stuff.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And so they feel like if they don't do that, they're never going to get booked anywhere, and they're not going to be able to get themselves better.

[A]

Yeah, but do you think that that's sort of hurting them creatively?

[B]

Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

It could be.

[A]

I don't know either.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's not. It's not perfect the way I do it. But I'm saying, like, to me, I just. I'm like. I get terrified of just that sort of landscape of constantly putting out all your stuff as opposed to really working on it and then presenting it when it's ready, when it's great. And it's like. Like when I watch you guys coming up, the polish of it, the. You know, like, it just right.

[B]

That special was special.

[A]

Special is special.

[B]

Yeah. All right. All right. I asked that your Persona as a.

[A]

Comedian, it's crazy that you have, like.

[B]

Books and shit, pages and pages as questions. We narrow down from more. Your. Your stage Persona is calm. Yeah. It's absurd. The. Your stage Persona is calm. When are you not calm?

[A]

I don't know. That's a good question. I feel like I'm. I get anxious a lot.

[B]

You do?

[A]

Super anxious. Like, I can't sleep.

[B]

What gets you that headspace?

[A]

I'm just thinking about concepts and jokes and tags and shows and careers and. Why are these comics putting everything out constantly? What am I doing? Should I be just dumping everything out? Yeah, I think of that all the time. You know, I got this every. Every. Every choice that I could make. I think about what's funny.

[B]

Like you. I love your sketch show. That damn Michael J. Oh, shit.

[A]

You. You're the one.

[B]

I loved it.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I mean, I don't. I can't believe you don't do it anymore.

[A]

Sketches a lot of work.

[B]

Yeah, sketches a lot of work.

[A]

It's a lot of work.

[B]

If people haven't seen it, you got to watch it. It's so personal. I, like, in the best way.

[A]

I appreciate that. That's literally what we were trying to go for. We wouldn't, like. I. We didn't want to do what SNL does, and we didn't want to do what Chappelle did, and all these great shows that had already done. We was trying to figure out a different angle, and one of the things was sort of making it personal and kind of, you know, I don't know, approaching it almost like standup.

[B]

You had like, a whole kind of, like, autopsy of your relationship.

[A]

That I.

[B]

Thought was, like, honestly, like, one of the funniest things I've ever Seen in a TV show.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah.

[B]

Was there any fear in doing that of, like, who are my exes? And all that kind of stuff?

[A]

No.

[B]

What do they think of this?

[A]

I didn't mind because I wasn't. I didn't mind. I wasn't afraid because I knew I wasn't lying about me.

[B]

Right. You're tough on yourself.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, it wasn't. I wasn't letting myself off the hook. It wasn't like, I'm making fun of them. I'm making fun of me and my thing. So it was like that.

[B]

You're not punching down or up. You're punching in your face.

[A]

Yeah, I'm literally choking myself. So. Yeah. So I didn't really. I wasn't really afraid because I feel like my kind of rule for comedy has always been, like, if you're not. As long as you're not lying, you're okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you just don't lie.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

I think that would be my pet peeve. I don't like lying when people are bullshitting. I don't like. I don't like when you're saying you feel this way when. I know you don't feel that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, for a comedian, when they. When they kind of push stuff that you're like, you're not that guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's not. You just. You just know that that's where the joke would be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I don't believe you. I don't believe you have those thoughts.

[B]

I made a joke a few years ago in this podcast, which is that liberals can't take jokes and conservatives can't write them. And I feel that when I watch your stuff, I'm like, that's like, your audience is probably most likely liberal, but also you're pushing their buttons all the time.

[A]

Yeah. I think liberals, though, are. I think they're turning a corner.

[B]

Yeah, I think possibly, I think.

[A]

But I think. I think liberals have finally realized that, like, yeah, you're in a fight and they're punching in the face and there's no rules, and you're gonna have to swing back.

[B]

Well, the other day I was messaging you because, like, you don't go political almost ever. And then with the SNAP stuff, you were just like, this is insane. Oh, well, then it got picked up everywhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Michael Che thinks this about the SNAP benefits and all that kind of stuff. That was great.

[A]

But that. And that's not even necessarily, like, for anybody's politics.

[B]

No, it's not political.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, it's just like, just from a compassion stand. I do think there is this belief though, if that, if it goes unchecked, I think it just becomes normalize.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

That people on welfare are just abusing the system in a way that they're just. That they're, they treat them like they're the billionaires, you know, like these people. There's some people that get two welfare checks and like, whoa, 400. Yeah, yeah. Like I've been on welfare. I'm telling you, it's not fun. No one loves this, you know what I mean? No one's killing it. No one's killing it. I just took it a little personally, like the way people sort of have this strange belief that people on welfare are just having a great time blowing money and taking advantage of the system. It's crazy. As someone who is a product of a home that was on welfare and I remember we used to go to get the free lunch in the summertime. We would go to schools and community centers and, and you know, all these programs really help my family. So I don't know, I just try to humanize it in a way of like, hey, this, this happens for everybody. It's not, it's not as glamorous as you think it is.

[B]

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[A]

Who am I jealous of? Oof. I'm Jealous of, like, beautiful women. No, like, specifically, I hear you. Like, Like. Like, I. Sometimes I'm, like, on Instagram, and I'll just scroll through, like, a hot lady's Instagram and I'll just see the life they live.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm just like, I. Where do you have. When do you have the time for all of this? And that makes me jealous of, like, how awesome life can be if I was just, like, a hot lady.

[B]

You know what they're scrolling through?

[A]

What?

[B]

Videos of Michael J. I don't think that's true. Living your life.

[A]

I haven't. I haven't seen that in my algorithm. Yeah. I think, like, hot women I'm jealous of. I'm like, damn, I wish I could do that. I wish I could just be, like, in Greece, chilling in the sun.

[B]

In Greece.

[A]

Well, the country.

[B]

Not in Greece. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Not in, like, a vat.

[B]

In Athens.

[A]

In Athens. Yeah. Yeah. Mykonos.

[B]

Mykonos. You just want to be in a bikini.

[A]

Yeah, I just want to be, like, in a bikini. Bikini.

[B]

In a bikini and Mykonos. Yeah.

[A]

I want to be, like, in a pool next to the ocean. Like, so much water. A little hot tub. All the water. I could think. Yeah, I like that.

[B]

But that you. I think it's Chris Rock who said being. Being famous is like being a hot woman.

[A]

It's not, man. Hot women have it way better.

[B]

Do you think so?

[A]

Yeah. Hell, yeah.

[B]

What? I don't know.

[A]

You think Chris Rock. You think Chris Rock's life is as good as Kim Kardashian's life? You know, it's definitely not, but.

[B]

But then if you're the hot woman, you have to deal with people cat calling you and all, yelling at you, and.

[A]

Not on an island in Greece. Are you good? There ain't nobody around. It's just you and God.

[B]

Did your life go how you expected it to go?

[A]

Hell, no. Hell, no.

[B]

What'd you think was gonna happen?

[A]

City, job, work. Work for the rest of my life. Maybe get a break when I'm in my 70s or something like that. If I make it or something. Yeah. Like, I thought it would just be, like, everybody I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just work until you can't work no more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm still working until I can't work no more, but it's. It's a lot better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I. I didn't think comedy would be the thing. Yeah, but who does?

[B]

Who does?

[A]

I just knew I liked it a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I just knew I enjoyed it, but I didn't know, it would be the thing.

[B]

Yeah. What is the weirdest thing that gets served to you in your algorithm?

[A]

Sound like a broken record, but.

[B]

Hot women.

[A]

Listen, it's not. I understand you see hot women in, like. If you see, like, hot women in, like, Greece or something, like. But I get hot women, like, selling houses. Hot women. You know what I mean? Just, like, what? I can't even. Everything is Hot women. Making food, selling watches, Everything everywhere.

[B]

Baking muffins.

[A]

Baking muffins. Trying Popeyes in their car. There's a hot women.

[B]

There's a theme here. Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, what is going on? Anything. I don't know. That's sort of, like, getting annoying now. I'm like, all right, dude, I'm trying to stop.

[B]

Yeah. Do you have any material you're working on that you're open to discussing or just. Or throwing out there?

[A]

Oh, oh, wait a minute. This is a great opportunity. I don't want to this up. What can I. What can I do? Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, that's. That's dark.

[B]

You can go dark.

[A]

All right. There's. There was this one joke that I was trying to. I'm trying to figure it out. I. I told it one time a long time ago, like. Like, maybe my third year in comedy. Second or third year in comedy. And it was. I was like, talk. Maybe it's like, second, first or second year in comedy. And it was about how, like.

[B]

I.

[A]

Think black people don't like the N word because we don't know what it means yet. Like, no one's ever explained to us exactly why or how we've become that. Yeah. And which kind of is, like, something. And then I was trying to find a word. The word I found was furbal. The word I found was furbal. That's the word I used at the time for, like, let's say you were kidnapped and brought to, like, a faraway land, and they made you pick cotton and they beat you and they did all these foul things to you, all because, according to them, you were a furble. You've never heard the word before. You don't know what it is, but every time you try to do something, you go somewhere and they're like, get out of here. You're furbal. And all of this stuff. So it goes into that, but I just don't know where it goes. I think it was, like, something to, like. Because we might not be the verbals you're looking for or something in that world. Or it's like, with the N word. In particular, it's like always. It's become like the statement. It's become sort of like the placeholder for every offensive thing.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

If you say anything and you're like, well, that's our N word.

[B]

Right? That's right. Right.

[A]

Why is that? Why is everything you're in. Why do you want one? You know what I mean? Why do you want everybody. Everybody has their N word. Okay.

[B]

But I think that's funny. Like ferbal. The reason. I think that that's great.

[A]

Fer. Sounds so silly.

[B]

Silly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's an inherently silly word. And I think that you could basically take the. You channel the discomfort of the audience, which will be inevitable once you talk about this and have all of those uncomfortable things be channeled through your readings of verbal.

[A]

Yeah, because I. I do. Yeah. It's silly enough.

[B]

You can also ask someone in the front row to say it. Say. Say Furble.

[A]

Say verbal. Go ahead, give him the microphone.

[B]

Say it. No, it's fine. It's fine with me.

[A]

You can say it. You can say it. Cause you are one. You don't even know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, but I like that because it's like. Cause there is that thing where for whatever reason, in the last 10 years, there's, you know, at any given moment, there's five words you can't say. Then it's 10, then it's 20, then it's five again. Then people start using this word again, and they're triumphant about it.

[A]

It's a pendulum of things, I think, as you. You know, the thing is, the words have become arbitrary. I think people stop you from using the words because of the treatment and the feelings toward a certain group of people.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

But the word. You can still treat people bad and not ever use the word. Hundred percent. So the guy that's using the word doesn't treat people bad, is way better than the person that doesn't use the word, but is absolutely awful, 100%. So I think, like, that's where to me, the comedy lies. Yeah. I know people that use the N word but don't treat people that way. And I know people that don't use the N word that are profiting off of the pain of these people directly. So I think that there's something funny in that sort of hypocrisy.

[B]

That was one of my jokes is. I think it's odd that we celebrate Indigenous Peoples Day on the same day as Columbus Day. Why don't we choose a day that's meaningful to Indigenous People maybe like, the day before Columbus arrived or any other day before he arrived.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

That was something.

[A]

No, I like that. Cause, you know, I always say that about, like, Black History Month. Like, every time people would say, like, oh, we don't need. Like, anytime white people say, we don't need Black History Month, I'm like, we. You're right. We should have White History Month. And you. All the horrible things that white people have done to black people, it's the same month.

[B]

Have you done that as a bib?

[A]

No.

[B]

That's a great bid.

[A]

It's the same kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like. Yeah, that's interesting.

[B]

Well, what.

[A]

So what is it?

[B]

It's American Black History, my shortest month, et cetera.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's an. That's.

[A]

It's cold.

[B]

It's cold. It's cold.

[A]

Most tropical people, the coldest month.

[B]

And then I hear. And then I wrote down. I wrote, you know, we stole the land from Native Americans. Everybody knows that.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

It's one of the only crimes where the punishment is saying sorry and then not giving the thing back. Can you imagine if you stole a dozen muffins from a bakery and the cop chased you down? You're like, I'm so sorry. You eating the muffins.

[A]

He's like, you got to give him back. I'm like, no, I can't give him back. I'm so, so.

[B]

Oh, my God. And then I got this into it.

[A]

That's the whole part right there. Not giving it back.

[B]

Isn't that crazy?

[A]

That's the whole thing. Oh, that's good.

[B]

Yeah, it's wild. It's actually up on that wall. You were asking what the cards were for before it goes. Maybe the day before Columbus Day.

[A]

I like Judaism as the Windows 95 of religion.

[B]

That's a good one. Yeah, yeah, That's a good one.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good one.

[A]

I had a joke, and I think it's a joke, and it's a line. It's a throwaway line and a larger joke, but it always makes people sad because the line is, some people don't believe in God. I don't think God believes in us. It's sort of like that, but in the fun of the. I tell you, in the middle of a bigger joke, in the fun of that bigger joke, it halts. So I just stopped using it because I was like, oh, this just, like, ruins the momentum. But I think it's so funny that God, like, maybe just doesn't believe in us. And I don't know what. People don't want to hear that though. Like, it's like a hard thing.

[B]

I had a thing this week about Christmas where I'm like, I'm like, Christmas is Jesus's birthday. And on his birthday, at his birthday, they invite a fat guy who's drunk. Yeah. And has presence.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And he's. And Jesus like, wait, but isn't it my birthday? Who is that?

[A]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[B]

What is happening? Like, and then. Yeah, I have just a whole thing, like I'm trying to write this thing and it's totally on. It's totally half baked. But it's just about how like all of these holidays that we go, we. Columbus Day. No. But also indigenous people. But also Thanksgiving.

[A]

There's way too many holidays, right?

[B]

And it's like Thanksgiving, it's like, it's like what? Like I'm at Thanksgiving with my. With my. My parents in law. Like, we give thanks for. Blah, blah, blah. Why? Because we thanked the Indians. Did we did. We're not really sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I feel like no one is sure. And then you get to Christmas. It's like, well, it's Christmas. It's Jesus's birthday, but we don't talk about. It's about Santa. Who's Santa? I don't know. Like, it's such a mess.

[A]

I wish we would just stop pretending. Holidays for what they not for. Like, let's just. Just make Thanksgiving. It's food day.

[B]

It's food day.

[A]

Let's just make it food day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And let's make Christmas gift day.

[B]

Yes. That's what it is. It should be broad categories.

[A]

Valentine's sex day. Sex day, July firework day.

[B]

Just make it that.

[A]

Just. That's all it is.

[B]

We don't need the lore.

[A]

We don't need the legend. We're not holding. Not celebrating that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

President's Day. Mattress day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's it. Columbus.

[B]

It's like, we all know Columbus didn't come to America.

[A]

You know what I mean? And we don't have to argue that. We just. We like the part. We like. Let's just make it that. Because we. What are we doing this for?

[B]

I don't know. It feels so disingenuous to me.

[A]

Absolutely. Because it is. Because it is. Let's just celebrate it. Why we celebrate it.

[B]

And then I wrote this time I was playing hangman with my daughter, which is a word game where you guess the word or phrase and if you guess the letter and it's wrong. Your daughter draws a human being of you being murdered in public. I got murdered in public by my daughter. And the phrase was, let's go swimming. And I didn't get it right. And I was hung in public, drawn by my daughter.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. And then I just wrote down, this is in my notebook. But it's like whenever you play a game like that, you have to think, what's the derivation of this one? Clearly, at some point someone got hungry.

[A]

I think I like to judge people by how they draw the arms.

[B]

How they draw the arms.

[A]

I draw the arms like this. I want the guy to struggle. I want the guy to struggle. His legs gotta be kicked out. Oh, that's sick. But you won't know until you've lost. You know what I mean?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

So it's like you're like, wait a minute. That's an interesting drawing.

[B]

Yeah, but that's what a man would look like. Yeah. I think you have. You have to judge the shoes sometimes too. Yeah, those aren't shoes. This person's. Terrible drawing.

[A]

Terrible drawing.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I have a joke that I've. That I've been talking about a little bit. It's kind of. It's kind of a joke I always tell, but it's like a throwaway joke. Just about how, like, I'm trying to slow down my drinking so I don't have to quit. Like, I think there's a. There's a sweet spot.

[B]

There's a sweet spot?

[A]

Yeah. Like, my biggest fear is. Is walking into my living room. My whole family's already there. Like, you know what I mean? They all got notes and shit. But I don't know where it goes from there. I just use it as like a throwaway. But I do think there is sort of this sweet spot in drinking enough where you can drink for the rest of your life and not have to hard quit. I have friends that quit drinking when we were in our late 20s that I could see now. They could go for a drink, you know, they wasn't as bad as they thought they might have been.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But they can't, because if they did, it would make me seem sad. It would make everybody sad. They'd be like, oh, no, you're drinking again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like, that's like a big decision to just quit.

[B]

Yeah. I think the thing to break. Break apart is like, how many days a week. Yeah. I think you're getting into math. Can you drink seven days a week?

[A]

No, you drink five days a week.

[B]

Three or you think three Before. Before the people show up.

[A]

Let me ask you a question. Does 9pm does 9pm and 5am count as one day or two? Those are two days. That's two days. Come on. I think I judge days by clothes. If you're wearing the same thing, it's not a different day.

[B]

I accept that. I think that you should do this as crowd work.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

This is crowd. This is a great crowd work piece.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

You got to ask people. People, first of all, you got to ask, how many days is acceptable a week to drink?

[A]

How many would you say?

[B]

I think you can get. I think you can get away with four. I think over four, you start to go, okay, is this a dependency? Five to seven feels like a dependency.

[A]

I could live before. Before is good.

[B]

You're good with four.

[A]

Four is good. And then what if I'm not okay? What if I'm all right? Four is good.

[B]

But then let's break apart. Let's break apart. How many drinks per session?

[A]

This is what I was worried about.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

So I got a very high tolerance, though.

[B]

This is worrisome. You're one of the people I worry about. What's your tolerance? Five or six strings?

[A]

Yeah, I could do that.

[B]

Let's go more than that.

[A]

No, I could do five or six. I could do five or six, but that.

[B]

That feels like. What is that? How about seven or eight?

[A]

I could do seven or eight, but I can't do that. I can't do that twice.

[B]

I'm about 9 or 10.

[A]

I. I have done that. I can do that.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I. I do do that sometimes. No, I. My nine to ten. It depends on the drink, though.

[B]

That's people in the living room.

[A]

But wait a minute. No, hang on, hang on. Okay. A shot in a beer. How many drinks is that?

[B]

It's one and three quarters drinks.

[A]

Okay. Okay. I could do four. I could do five. I could do six. I could do six. I could do six. That's good. Yeah.

[B]

Is that your final answer?

[A]

No. Yeah, I could do 5, 4, 5, and 6.

[B]

All right. The final thing we do on the show is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? You and I were. Were talking the other day about food banks in New York based on the Snap stuff, so I figured that might be a good one.

[A]

That is a great one.

[B]

I always say this on the show, but food banks do this amazing job of stretching a dollar.

[A]

It's really, really, really helpful. And shout out to Charlamagne, the God who. Who I Actually reached out to, to you know, he's a spokesperson for them.

[B]

Oh, he is, yeah.

[A]

So he actually gave me the contact.

[B]

Oh, that's great.

[A]

Initially. So I really appreciate that. I'm glad I got to do that.

[B]

We are, we will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

[A]

I don't know why we got so sad all of a sudden.

[B]

I think we're happy.

[A]

We could have said that. Funny.

[B]

This is me happy.

[A]

I know my comedy just gotta end in a series.

[B]

This is my voiceover voice. This is my voiceover overbo. Real serious. But yeah, people should. But pe. I mean I always say that on a show, every episode we listen to, we give to nonprofit. If you're. If you listen every week and you go like, like, yeah, I'll give you that someday. This is the one you should give to this one. We'll link to them in show notes. It could be in your town. It could be the food bank in Cincinnati. It could be the food bank in San Jose. These are great organizations.

[A]

Yeah. And they never don't need help.

[B]

You know, they never don't need help.

[A]

And we have enough. There's enough of us that have enough and we pay a lot to live here and I'm happy to do it, but you just want to make sure your money's going to the right places. And it seems to sometimes not be the case. So we have to do extra things to make sure that it balances out. But we'll remember that next November, right?

[B]

Thanksgiving. Michael J. Thank you so much. I have so much gratitude.

[A]

Comedy man.

[B]

I love you as a person.

[A]

Thank you so much. I, I really, really, really appreciate everything. This was, this was so much fun working it out. Cuz it's not done.

[B]

Working it out because there's no that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Michael Che on Instagram at. Che thinks his Instagram is ridiculous. I think he has one square but he posts a lot of really funny ridiculous things in stories all the time. He's. Yeah, he's one of the funniest people to follow. And also he announces when he's gonna do these pop up shows at the small club Club in Brooklyn which used to be the Knitting Factory and it's called Isola I S O L A. He's been doing a regular show on Sundays there. Check out birbigas.com to sign up for the mailing list as well as the text message alerts. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel. It's at Mike Birbiglia, Do Me a favor and subscribe. It supports the show and also we post more and more videos every week. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Ben Cruz Supervising engineer Kate Balinsky. Special thanks as always to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. We are going to be announcing a jokes and poems show soon, so sign up for the text message alerts. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying this show, it would do us a huge favor to rate us and review us on Apple Podcast podcasts. We've recorded almost 200 episodes. They're all free. No paywall. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell LeBron James and Michael Jordan. You know, the next time you run into LeBron James and Michael Jordan, just go, hey, there's this podcast Mike Birbigli is working out. Comedian Mike Birbigli works out jokes with other comedians. Turns out you were both name checked in the Michael Che episode. One of you comes out on top. That'll be a cliffhanger. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. See you next time.