197. Natalie Palamides: Wisdom from a Modern Clown

Summary

---

Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out

Episode 197: Natalie Palamides: Wisdom from a Modern Clown

Date: December 22, 2025
Host: Mike Birbiglia
Guest: Natalie Palamides

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Birbiglia sits down with acclaimed comedian, actor, and clown Natalie Palamides. Together, they explore the unique discipline of clowning, its place in contemporary comedy, the art of physical performance, the value of vulnerability and failure, and the surprising directions one’s art (and life) can take. Natalie shares insights into her process, career-defining shows like Laid, Nate (now a Netflix special), and Weir, and her philosophy of creating comedy that’s both physical and deeply human. The conversation is candid, funny, and full of practical wisdom for comedians, performers, and fans alike.

---

Main Themes & Purpose

• Understanding the modern art of clowning: its differences from traditional or “birthday” clowning, and its emotional, physical, and experimental roots
• The intersection of vulnerability, failure, and comedy
• Creating and evolving solo shows, audience interaction, and managing risk onstage
• The influence of personal life on comedic character building
• Reflections on career, envy, making space for experimentation, and the future of physical comedy

---

Key Discussion Points

1. What is Modern Clowning? (05:48–09:23)

• Natalie describes clowning as “having fun being an idiot, being the stupidest version of yourself, and expressing that mostly through using your body as the canvas.”

  “You’re supposed to be an idiot and be the stupidest version of yourself, but clowning class is one of the hardest things you’ll ever do.” (06:32, Natalie)

• Natalie discusses the freedom clowning offers from the pressure to always be verbally clever.
• She sees her comedic lineage in Lucille Ball, Steve Martin, Carol Burnett, Molly Shannon, and physical icons.

2. The Exhausting Craft of One-Person Clown Shows (09:23–12:16)

• Discussion of Weir: Parodying 80s/90s rom-coms through physical gags (e.g., dumping water on herself for a ‘rainstorm’).
• Birbiglia likens the physicality to doing your own stunts:

  "It's almost like you're your own stunt person." (10:37, Mike)

• Natalie credits her strong core for surviving repeated falls and admits the six-pack is “by accident” (12:16).

3. Vulnerability, Failure & the Art of Letting Go (13:34–14:49)

• Natalie recounts her clown professor saying she’d “fail clown” because she couldn’t access vulnerability—ironic, because “the point is to fail.”

  “If I had failed clown, I maybe would have aced clown. But I did ace clown, so did I fail clown? Yes, because I didn’t fail.” (14:03, Natalie)

• Mike and Natalie connect this to all comedy: the power in making the secret, “the thing you don’t want to talk about,” funny.

4. Personal Fears & Layering Real Life into Comedy (15:25–16:53)

• Natalie admits to working out her fear of “turning into her mother” within Laid:

  "I have this... fear of turning into my mother, but I love my mom so much, so I never want her to know that." (16:09, Natalie)

• The show, which involves her hatching from an egg, uses physical absurdity to express deeper anxieties.

5. Audience Risk & Consent in Nate (19:08–23:36)

• Mike praises Nate’s boundary-pushing crowd work—Natalie details physically wrestling audience members:

  “Some of the guys... would get really aggressive. This one guy… he, like, flipped me up and threw me down… they thought he broke my neck.” (22:00, Natalie)

• She discusses learning to safeguard both herself and the audience (using waivers, mats) and adapting based on crowd energy.

6. Fearlessness & Physical Risk (23:36–24:54)

• Mike underscores Natalie’s “fearlessness”—she admits she is afraid (“skydiving… this is not worth it!”), contrasting show risks with real-world ones.

  “There’s this guy on my back. I’m supposed to trust him to pull the cord? What if this guy… he just decides your whole life in this moment.” (24:57, Natalie)

7. What is “Hack” in Clown? (27:52–29:23)

• Natalie reflects on how simple nudity has become a ‘hack’ shortcut for vulnerability in clown:

  "Getting naked just to get naked, that is hack to me in clown." (28:47, Natalie)

• She strives to keep nudity meaningful, woven into the context of the character and show.

8. Improvisation, Audience Engagement, and Development (36:44–38:13)

• Natalie emphasizes listening and adapting to audience response, even mid-show:

  “You’re supposed to go to where the audience is leading you to… you might have your show that you’re doing, but if you hear them laughing at something else, you’re supposed to drop that and do what they think is funny.” (37:45, Natalie)

• She illustrates with examples from Nate, where post-show feedback led her to add a key emotional beat (38:23–39:31).

9. The Evolution of Clown: From Chaplin to Birthday Parties (33:12–34:59)

• Discussion of the divergence between ‘performance clown’ (Chaplin, Steve Martin, Lucille Ball) and the “birthday clown”:

  “I can only imagine that it was like, people that really wanted to do those things, but didn’t really have... the chops. Didn’t have the skill... just threw on a costume to make up for skills they didn’t have.” (33:39–34:59, Natalie)

10. Dreams, Envy, and the Possibility of Modern Physical Comedy (50:09–52:07)

• Natalie admits to being “jealous of everyone on SNL” and those who get to make what they want without interference, even as Mike points out that many are jealous of her freedom.

  “I can only imagine. Watch a clip, watch a clip. Watch a clip.” (50:55, Mike, humorously speculating about Lorne Michaels seeing her work)

• They discuss whether there’s space for a “modern Chaplin” in today’s film world, agreeing that audiences crave more physical comedy (52:09–53:44).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Clown Philosophy:

  “Finding the gold through accidents… That’s clown, you know.” (12:33, Natalie)

• On Vulnerability & Failure:

  “The point is to fail… The art of failure.” (14:03, Natalie)

• On Physical Comedy’s Roots:

  “A clown takes what limited resources it has to create the most magical, playful, imaginative world that it can.” (30:34, Natalie)

• On What’s Hack in Clown:

  “Getting naked just to get naked, that is hack to me in clown. So I strive to not do that.” (28:47, Natalie)

• On Character & Real Life:

  “I like to show that those people that go to anger really quickly have a vulnerable side… I like to play with that in my character work.” (31:44, Natalie)

• On Career Paths Not Going As Expected:

  “Did your life go how you expected it to go?” (53:44, Mike)
  “No, not at all. I never thought I’d be doing these insane theater shows…” (53:52, Natalie)

• On Supporting Experimental Theater:

  “It’s so important that people do experimental theater… The antidote for [AI and commercialism] is live performance. Specificity, experimentation… things that a machine could not come up with.” (60:01, Mike)

---

Timestamps of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |-----------|-------------| | 05:48 | Explaining modern clowning’s intent and appeal | | 09:23 | The physical toll and craft of one-person clown shows | | 12:33 | “That’s clown for you. That’s clown, you know, is finding the gold through accidents.” —Natalie | | 13:34 | On vulnerability, failure, and Natalie's college clown class | | 16:09 | Using performance to process parental anxieties | | 19:08 | The risks and boundaries of audience participation in Nate | | 23:36 | Natalie's actual fears—contrasts between stage and life | | 28:47 | “Getting naked just to get naked, that is hack” —Natalie on easy laughs in clown | | 37:45 | How improvising and audience feedback actively shapes clown performances | | 38:23 | Audience suggestion leads to a key emotional beat in Nate | | 50:12 | “Who are you jealous of?” —Natalie wants SNL (and creative autonomy) | | 52:07 | Is there space for a modern Chaplin? (Physical comedy in film) | | 53:44 | Natalie’s path: “Did your life go how you expected it to go?” | | 60:01 | The essential value of live, experimental theater in a digital/AI age | | 59:48 | Supporting The Elysian, LA's nonprofit experimental theater space |

---

Advice & Reflections on Craft

• You don’t need formal French clown school—just start, learn from varied teachers, and let the audience’s response guide you.
• The best bits often emerge from “accidents” or feedback—be open to changing your show based on what’s working.
• Vulnerability—what you’re afraid to share or admit—is often where the art’s “gold” is.
• Watch out for “hack” moves (nudity for its own sake, easy tropes)—strive for originality and intention.
• Support and participate in spaces for experimentation—live, risky, and specific performance is irreplaceable.

---

Support & Plugs

• Natalie Palamides:

  • Watch Nate (Netflix)
  • See Weir in London (Soho Theatre, Jan 14–24)
  • Follow on Instagram: @nataliepalamides

• The Elysian Theater, LA:

  • Nonprofit dedicated to experimental live performance
  • Donate/learn more [linked in online episode notes]

---

Tone & Style

Light, deeply candid, mutually admiring, and occasionally absurd—echoing the spirit of clowning. The conversation balances practical craft, emotional honesty, and physical comedy, with a playful rapport between host and guest.

---

For listeners or those curious about the modern art of clown, this episode is a thorough, heartfelt, and frequently hilarious primer—and an inspiration for anyone interested in making bold, deeply personal comedy.

Transcript

[A]

It's almost like you're your own stunt person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you, when you go down, does it hurt or are you in such impeccable shape? Is your core in such perfect shape that it doesn't hurt?

[B]

You know, I do have a pretty strong core. Right now. I'm kind of rocking a six pack.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

I'm not striving for this.

[A]

Wow. It's just by accident you have a six pack. Yeah, by accident. You know what's funny? It's a terrible thing to say for me, by accident. I've never had a six pack. It was totally by accident that I haven't had one.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

But if I had one, it would be by also by accident.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's clown for you.

[A]

That is the voice of the great Natalie Palamides. I'm so excited to have Natalie on. I have seen her live shows at this point three or four times through the years at Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the Cherry Lane Theater with a show called Weir W E E R that is going from the Cherry Lane Theater to London. If you're listening to this and you're in London, absolutely see this show. It is a must see show. She has multiple one person shows including Laid Nate and Weir. Nate actually is a Netflix special that you can see now produced by Amy Poehler. If you haven't seen Nate, it's basically Natalie playing this guy as a character who's really absurd. He has a mustache. He rides in on a little mini motorcycle and it's like a monologue. Most of the show is a monologue from the perspective of this guy and it's an outrageous character, but it has a lot of surprises and twists and turns. I think you'll love it. I think it's absolutely fascinating and very funny. Natalie is an incredible comedian, writer, performer, clown. Maybe not in the way that you use the word clown, but like a performance art clown, not a birthday clown. We talked about that today on the show, the differences between that. But she's like an extraordinarily gifted physical performer, writer, just innovator. By the way, thanks to everyone who signed up for the text message alerts. As you know, I've had the email list for many, many years and some of them go to people spam. So we created a text message mailing list and we're going to use them specifically in a few cities where I'm just going to do small club dates with new material. Philadelphia, Palm Beach, Madison, Buffalo, Raleigh, Los Angeles, New York City and Nashville. If you want to be on that super secret text message list. Text the phone number 917-444-7150. Text the word Burbigs B I R B I G S. And you will be the first person to know about those shows before they sell out. Will also be appearing on Broadway January 13 through 18 in a show that was written by Simon Rich called All Out. I will be performing alongside Cecily Strong, Wayne Brady and others. Simon Rich, who's a writer from SNL and the New Yorker and all different places, he wrote this show called all in last year. It was fantastic. Mulaney was in it and Fred Armisen, Kroll, all these great people. Now this is the follow up. It's called All Out. I'm thrilled to be a part of it. It's very funny. You can get [e-mail] also if you want to get the podcast with no ads. If the ads drive you crazy, sign up for working it out premium on Apple Podcasts and you'll also get these additional bonus episodes we're doing. Like me and Pete Holmes working out listeners jokes. I'm so chuffed you're joining me for my conversation with Natalie Palmides. Today we talk about the art of clowning. We talk about the differences between a traditional birthday clown and the concept of a clown in a more theatrical sense. I loved talking to her today. This is unlike any episode we have ever had on this show. I promise. Enjoying my conversation with the great Natalie Palamides. I'm going to attempt to contextualize you to our listeners today. Thank you, Natalie Palamides, because I just think you're one of the most extraordinary performers I've ever seen.

[B]

That means a lot coming from you, Mike.

[A]

I appreciate it. I have to explain this to people because it's so hard to explain what it is you do, which is good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's good to be hard to explain.

[B]

I think so, yeah. Then you gotta go to the show, right?

[A]

Have to go to the show. I've been to three of them. I went to Nate, which is now a Netflix special that was produced by Amy Poehler and it's a beautiful show that I saw live. We'll talk more about that later. And then I saw a show that you did called Laid.

[B]

Yeah, that's my first show.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And then I saw the recent show at the Cherry Lane called Weir, which again, unbelievable.

[B]

Thanks, Mike.

[A]

These are all of a movement, clowning in comedy, which is people call clowning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you explain to people listening to the show what it is why it's so popular and what your shows are. Roughly what the rough intent of them is.

[B]

Yes. Okay. So I think the, the simplest way to explain clowning is to just have fun being an idiot, being the stupidest version of yourself, and to express that mostly through using your body as the canvas or as the medium. So it's mostly like physical comedy. I think good reference points for clowns in media are like Lucille Ball, Steve Martin, Carol Burnet, Molly Shannon. Like her running into all the chairs doing Mary Katherine Gallagher.

[A]

Mary Gallagher, yeah.

[B]

That's a clown bit. I think there is an attraction to clowning in the scene and in LA in particular. It's a really popular sport, I guess. Yeah, I think because it's just a different way to improvise without being so heavy, verbally heavy on the mental games. Like you can just. You don't have to be super clever. Maybe it's like a little bit of freedom from being clever. But it's a mistake to say that because a lot of the time you do have to be clever. You're supposed to be an idiot and be like the stupidest version of yourself. But clowning class is one of the hardest things you'll ever do in your. Like, I suck at clown class. I can't get any laughs in clown because once you're trying, you're failing, but the point is to fail. So like, if your friend is like a really fun clown bit, you'll say like, that was so stupid. Or like, that was the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

It's a high compliment. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Maybe that's why my wife Jenny and I are so drawn to what you do. Is in our house, physical comedy beats out verbal comedy by a long shot.

[B]

Yeah, it's just what I. I don't know, my mind like goes to visual jokes more quickly than verbal jokes. And oftentimes, like, I would struggle doing long form improv. I don't know why. It's like a little bit more difficult for my brain to access. Cause there are a lot of verb jokes in my shows as well. But you know, I love doing UCB and long form improv and stuff like that. And I would do it a lot when I was coming up in the LA comedy scene, but I would find myself a lot of times on the back line being like, how do I. What is the game? Like, I don't know why I couldn't access it. Or like on comedy Bang Bangs, you know, I did a Few episodes. Thank you, Scott, for having me. But a lot of the times I'd just be sitting there going, like, I don't know what's going on.

[A]

Totally. But I actually think that in improv, leading with physicality, I think actually is great.

[B]

It's so much fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the teams that I was on back in the day when I initiated a game that was more physical, they would totally jump in and support me and stuff like that. But I don't think it's a place that people go to immediately when they're doing long form. It always. Most more frequently, I think starts verbally.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I think it is. Well, I think the people who are really good at it will initiate physical games.

[A]

Right. Okay, so then, first of all, the night I saw your show at Cherry Lane. By the time people hear this, it won't be running. So we'll have to plug your upcoming shows next because you're basically gonna finish a 60 plus show run.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many is it gonna be?

[B]

62 when it's all said and done. Yeah. Which I know compared to people on Broadway doing eight shows a week, it's nothing. But doing this show is something a little bit different.

[A]

It's a little interesting. I feel like it's beyond exhausting what you're doing because. Pull me back from what I'm gonna say. Being a spoiler. You're playing multiple characters.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's okay to say two.

[A]

Primary characters, but then also additional characters.

[B]

Oh, yeah. There are a few other characters in the.

[A]

I think there's tertiaries.

[B]

Yeah. There's terse. There's some terse cares.

[A]

You do the voices that are completely different from one another. You do physicality. That's like. It's kind of a parody for people who haven't seen it. It's kind of a parody of a. Like, almost like an 80s or 90s Rom com.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's the device that I'm using or what I'm mapping on, you know, as they would say.

[A]

And in psychology class.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, do they say that in psychology? Okay. Yeah. But that's what I'm using, like, as the canvas, you know, which I'm painting on is the 90s Rom com.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I kind of, you know, spill a bunch of stuff on it from there.

[A]

It's so. I can't even imagine how exhausting it is because you're.

[B]

I'm exhausted.

[A]

Well, it's. You're. Without giving away the gags, but it's like, you're like, you know, there'll be a rainstorm, but instead of a rainstorm and clowning, it's like you're pouring water. Like a bucket of water on your head.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You're falling down a lot. You're like, there's a lot of falls. Like, I'm thinking a lot about, like, how it's almost like you're your own stunt person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you. When you go down, does it hurt, or are you in such impeccable shape? Is your core in such perfect shape that you. It doesn't hurt.

[B]

You know, I do have a pretty strong core. Right now. I'm kind of rocking a six pack.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

I think in certain lighting, I don't know how it would look in this lighting.

[A]

Do you strive for.

[B]

Just happens I don't strive for it.

[A]

You're striving for core, and then the byproduct is a six pack.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like, where is this coming from? Like, my brother's super ripped, so maybe it runs in the family or something, but I'm not striving for this.

[A]

Wow. It's just by accident you have a 6Pac. Yeah, by accident. You know what's a terrible thing to say for me? By accident? I've never had a six pack. It was totally by accident that I haven't had one.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

But if I had one, it would be by also by accident.

[B]

Yeah. Well. Well, that's clown for you. That's clown, you know, is finding the gold through accidents, essentially.

[A]

How'd you arrive? Like, you were saying you arrived at it partly because you did improv, like, at UCB in la.

[B]

I was introduced to clowning in college. I remember being on the phone with my mom and she was like, what is this? I see clown on your class schedule? And I was like, yeah, yeah, it's a class they have. Like, how cool is that? She was like, you need to sign up for business classes. And I was like, I'll do communications media. Like, I was like, will that appease you? So I double majored in theater and communications to appease my family to maybe have a little bit more of a professional type background. But anyways, yeah. Was introduced to it in college. And funny story, my college clown professor told me, you're gonna fail clown because you're so bad at clown. Because I couldn't access my vulnerability.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So, like, a big part of clowning is being open to the audience, and there's never a fourth wall there with you. And you're supposed to let everybody see, like, your inner child, like, your spirit. And I had this wall up, I guess, and he was like, if you're not able to access that, you're gonn. But the ironic thing is that failing is what you're supposed to do in clown in order. Like, you're supposed to fail so much.

[A]

On the art of failure.

[B]

Yes. The art of failure. Yeah, exactly. So if I had failed clown, I maybe would have aced clown, But I did ace clown, but I didn't fail clown. So did I fail clown? Yes, because I didn't fail.

[A]

Yes and yes and yes and no.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So that's fascinating because I feel like that how that zooms out into, like, a lot of discussions we have on this podcast is like, it's similar but not usually physical. So it's like, usually in jokes, it's just like, well, what's the thing that is a secret.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the thing you don't want to talk about? Can you make that thing funny?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's usually like, if you can make that funny, the thing you do.

[B]

Not want to talk about, you don't.

[A]

Want anyone to know, then that's, like, where you can really channel some magic.

[B]

Yeah, that's where the gold. I mean, that's where you're, like, breaking your soul open. And I think that's what people relate to the most. And the artists that are, you know, most, I guess, successful or most relatable in a way are those people who are able to share the deepest part of themselves.

[A]

Do you remember, like, the first thing that you open up about with an audience where you're like, oh, that's different?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess it's all hidden in, like, my physical comedy and in the absurdity of my shows, but I guess. Oh, my gosh, this is, like, so sad to say. I almost don't want to say it. So my first show laid, there is, like, a moment where she turns into her mother. And so I have this, like, yeah, fear of turning into my mother, but I love my mom so much, so I, like, never want her to know that. I hope she never listens to that.

[A]

I will encourage her not to listen to her.

[B]

I don't think she listens to podcasts, so I think we're safe. But, yeah, she's an awesome woman. She's like, a interesting character. But, yeah, I just had.

[A]

But you put that into the performance physically.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's more in there verbally, but I think the show laid, you know, eventually. Not, you know, spoiler alert. I start the show as an egg. I hatch into a woman, and then eventually I turn back into an egg who hatches into a woman. And she says, I'm just like my mother. But I think everybody has that fear of, like, becoming their parents. Right, Deeply or a lot of people.

[A]

Deeply.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I certainly. Yeah, I certainly have it.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of comedians do.

[A]

I think. I think that's. Yeah, I think that's accurate. I mean, that. I think that hits too close to home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In laid, Jenny and I were commenting on. You ate a lot of raw eggs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In the show.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How many eggs is the most eggs you've ever eaten in that show? Like, you crack open eggs. I can't tell if you're actually eating them or they're just kind of like falling all over your face.

[B]

Some of them I'm actually eating, and a lot of them are falling just. Yeah. All over my body. But actually, the. The most eggs I had ever eaten was the first work in progress show that I did because it was more of an. It started from a place that was an endurance performance piece to where I was like. So the pattern of the show is this woman wakes up, lays an egg, has to decide whether she's gonna raise her young or eat it. And so I just wanted to see how many times I could do that cycle until I was actually full. And I wasn't going to stop doing that until I was actually, like, physically full.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was like an endurance piece. So probably in that show, I don't know, maybe I went through that cycle and it got faster and faster each time I did it. I don't know. In my mind's eye, I'm like, I did it 30 times or whatever, but it was probably something like. Like 11 or 12 times.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's what it felt like. Did you ever get sick?

[B]

No, luckily, yeah. Never got sick in London because, you know, in America, we pasteurize our eggs, but in the UK, they don't pasteurize their eggs. And one of the main ways you can get salmonella is from scat. Chicken scat.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

So I would wipe the eggs off with baby wipes before every show. Yeah. But there is a point where I toss shells into my mouth as well. So. Yeah. Just not very safe.

[A]

So then your. Your show that's on Netflix, which I also. Jenny and I also saw Nate with. I. Again, I don't want to spoil it, but it's A. You play a character named Nate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who rides into the theater on a mini motorcycle. That is real.

[B]

Yeah. It's fun. Yeah.

[A]

That I didn't know, by the way, existed. I didn't know a mini motorcycle, like, that existed.

[B]

I know. Why would. Why would you.

[A]

Why would one know that?

[B]

They make them for wealthy children. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For rich kids.

[A]

Yeah. And then. And then you proceed as this character to. This is a real next level of crowd work.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You really toy with sort of consent and, like, there are male participants in. From the audience.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who I feel like are maybe afraid that you're gonna either hit their genitals or touch them or, like.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How did that go? I mean, you probably did it hundreds of times. It must have gone south with some of the participants.

[B]

A few times. It had gone south. Yeah. Especially, like, in the early days of trying it. So there is a wrestling mat that I bring out during the show. But during the early days, you know, I was performing at a. Spoiler. I was performing at a theater that had a concrete floor. And. And for the first couple shows, I didn't have a wrestling mat until I realized, like, oh, I need to get wrestling on concrete. Yeah.

[A]

Just on the floor with audience members.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Insane.

[B]

Just on the floor. More insane to, like, you know, risk the safety of an audience member.

[A]

I know. Your safety and theirs.

[B]

Yeah. And also, you know, eventually, because of the risk assessments in the uk, I had to give them a form to read and to let them know what they were about to be doing, which is, like, wrestling me. So when the audience member comes up, you know, I give them a form.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Tells them exactly what they're going to be doing. But initially, in the early stages, I would just, you know, like, agitate them and try to, you know, work them up and get them to fight me. And so that resulted in much more aggression coming at me when we were doing the wrestling. But I thought, you know, this is all fun. Like, everybody knows, like, I'm just a little lady playing this character, I thought. But some of the guys were, you know, they would get really aggressive. And this one guy who was a friend of mine, he, like, flipped me up and threw me down. And, like, everybody in the audience thought, like, he broke my neck.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah, that show. There's a. There's a video of it. I'll have to find it.

[A]

That he broke your neck? The audience thought.

[B]

They thought that he did. And he, like, threw me down, like, right on this part. Right here, really hard, you know, like, what's that wrestling move where they pick you up and throw you down?

[A]

Like a pile driver.

[B]

Like a pile driver on me and. Yeah, yeah, it was scary. And then, you know, like, there was a show in Edinburgh where I guess maybe a man heard ahead of time what happens in the show, and he just came up out of the audience before I even initiated this part and just started wrestling. Yeah. And I didn't kick him out. I didn't kick him out of the show.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

I don't know why. I just, like, sat him back down. I was like, we're not there yet. Not at that part yet. Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

What else. Did he come up later?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I picked him to come up later. Cause I was like, this is a way to save it, you know, because there was so much bad vibes in the audience from him doing that, and everybody was, you know, a little bit tense and scared of him from that. So I was like, oh, I can.

[A]

From the audience member attempting to wrestle you. Apropos of nothing. They were afraid. Yeah.

[B]

I wonder why. So I thought, oh, this will be a way to lighten it if I welcome him on stage.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Then it'll put the audience more at ease if I welcome him back and they can see like this. Okay. I don't know.

[A]

You're fearless. Like, I think that's part of what I'm responding to. When I see. When I've seen all your shows or seen three of your shows, I'm just going, like, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid of anything?

[B]

Yeah, definitely. Like, skydiving. When I went skydiving, I thought, this is not worth it. But I did go. I did go.

[A]

Why do you think that in skydiving?

[B]

Yeah. Just the whole time I was falling, I was thinking, like, if I die right now, this was not really worth the experience.

[A]

Like, totally.

[B]

It's the same feeling as going on a roller coaster.

[A]

I feel the same way about roller coasters. Yeah, yeah. No, I feel the same way about roller coasters.

[B]

Like, this isn't worth it.

[A]

No, no, no. This is absolutely not worth it.

[B]

Okay. I think roller coasters are worth it.

[A]

Oh, you do think it's worth it?

[B]

I like roller coasters, but I don't think, like, roller coasters have the same amount of risk as skydiving.

[A]

Close call.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But depends on what town you're in, I guess.

[B]

So you know what I mean?

[A]

Like, there's certain towns, you see the roller coaster, you Go. Yeah, I've seen them make pancakes. I don't really trust them making a.

[B]

Roller coaster, especially those wooden ones. Those are the best ones in my opinion. Wooden roller coasters. Oh, yeah, yeah. The classics.

[A]

Okay, so you're saying, like, when you look at a roller coaster, you're like, that's worth it. Feel safe enough when you did, when you did skydiving, you're like, no, no. What are we doing?

[B]

Well, I'm just like, what is this guy? I'm like, there's this guy on my back.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm supposed to trust him to pull the cord.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You know, I'm like, what if this.

[A]

Guy, your whole life, you know, he just decides your whole life in this person's hands.

[B]

Yeah, he's a psycho in this moment. And actually, you're right at the end of the drop when after he pulled the chute, I said, you saved my life. You saved my life. Thank you so much. You know, he does that guy. He must have God complex, right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cause he's saving everybody's life every day.

[A]

He saves everybody's life every day.

[B]

Yeah. Go get a real life saving job, buddy. Go be a fireman. Right? What are your taking people on the plane?

[A]

Working it out is brought to you by Helix. You feel that chill in the air. Winter is here. I love my Helix mattress even more during the winter. It's cozy, it's comfortable. I remember when I used to sleep on an air mattress many years ago in my apartment in Queens. Not exactly a comfort at the end of a cold winter day. But now that I have the Helix mattress, it's exactly where I want to be when the temperatures drop. You should remember that a good night's sleep is even more important during cold and flu season. I'm always thinking about that. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US Shopping for everyone else is nice, but don't forget to give yourself the gift of a good night's sleep. Sleep. Sleep is so important. It's the most important thing. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 27% off site wide. This is exclusive for listeners of Mike Birbigli is working it out. That's helixsleep.combrbigs for 27% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name in the post purchase survey so they know we sent you. We appreciate it. Helixsleep.com support for working it out comes from Rula. I'm a huge advocate of therapy. I've said this on the show a lot before. I've been in therapy for 20 plus years. Anyway, Rula is great for providing better access to therapy. No wait lists, no frustrating back and forth. Rula makes it easy to find a mental health provider who's accepting new patients and appointments are available as soon as tomorrow. Plus, Rula sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is helping you move forward, making sure their providers are carefully screened and vetted, monitoring the quality of their care and helping you monitor your progress in therapy. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey towards improved mental health and overall well being. Head on over to rula.com burbigs to get started today. After you sign up, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Go to r u l a.com, and take the first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. In clown, what is hack? The way. The way that. In stand up comedy. Is it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For real, your hack.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

In stand up comedy, like, where are you from? What do you do for a living? You know what I mean? That would be like hack. I would not say that.

[B]

Right, right. I think I have perpetuated a problem in the clown scene where. And you know, this isn't all on me. There's a lot of clowns that do this. But a very easy thing to go to is nudity. You know, to be vulnerable and to get laughs at the same time. It's like an instant way to just be vulnerable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's a cheat.

[A]

Right. You're like. I would describe you to people who haven't seen the show. Like you're partially or mostly nude sometimes, but you. But there's also a lot of like makeup and sort of you're playing characters that are. So it doesn't.

[B]

There's more to it.

[A]

It's not nudity in. In what you think of in a traditional sense as nudity.

[B]

I would describe it as.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Thanks, Mike. Well, I'd say like getting naked just to get naked. That is hack to me. And clown.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So I strive to not do that. But, you know, maybe some people would argue, like, you know, innate, like I'm topless from the top of the show. But, you know, I would say that's like part of the character's look. But, you know, in like, you know, clown open mics and stuff like that, you'll see it's like just like a Very easy thing that people go to, like getting their ass or tits out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I've been guilty of that, too.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, it's just an easy laugh.

[A]

Sure. What physical? Like, what else is hacked? Like, when there's a rainstorm and it's like a bucket of water over your head, is that something other people do?

[B]

Oh, I've not seen that on stage.

[A]

So when you're trying to tell a story, you're trying to come up with. Okay, how can I tell the story that I'm trying to tell physically in a way that I haven't seen before?

[B]

I don't know if I think about it as, like, I'm not trying to think of something I haven't seen before, but I think about a way that I can create an image by myself on stage. And so, like, the easiest way is with a camping shower, right? Yeah. And it just happens.

[A]

Oh, that's what it is. It's a camping shower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it just happens to be, like, a really stupid visual. But, like, you know, the clown is kind of, like, playing at the idea of something like a little kid plays house. So you're essentially, like, trying to create this world to the best of your abilities with your limited resources. Like a little kid when they're playing house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, a clown takes what limited resources it has to create the most, like, magical, playful, imaginative world that. That it can.

[A]

I think that's what I respond to about it. Like, I find it to be so human of an art form. Like, it goes to the heart of, like, what it is to be just kind of animal versions of ourselves.

[B]

Oh, thanks, man.

[A]

I think. I don't know if that's.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Right or wrong.

[B]

A lot of it can get pretty primal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A lot of clown shows.

[A]

Do you like the character? One of the characters you play in Weir, like, the male character and then Nate, I would describe as having, like, an angry stre.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you have an angry streak? Do people, you know, have an angry streak? Is that one of the themes you're getting at?

[B]

I know some people. I know some people. Yeah. You know, I grew up around a lot of very colorful characters.

[A]

I don't like this.

[B]

And so. Yeah, like, those are people that I draw inspiration from in my characters. Yeah.

[A]

Do you have something you're getting at with the anger you feel like?

[B]

I think I like to show that those people that go to anger really quickly have a vulnerable side or, like, have a softer side. And I like to show, like. Yeah. Many different aspects of a person's soul or personality or like that. Like these people that put up a really tough exterior, that they still have a heart, you know, Because a lot of the people in my life growing up that, you know, I witnessed that kind of behavior from, I really had a lot of. Have a lot of love for. And so I know that, and I know that there's, you know, a good side to them. So I like to play with that in my character work.

[A]

Yeah, it's like. It's almost like a rageaholic kind of flip of a switch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like that's what you're conveying.

[B]

Yeah, that would. Well, then I'm doing a good job. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.

[B]

Good job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. And. Yeah, no, it's a really wild thing to witness. Yeah.

[A]

What are. What are. What are people's misunderstandings about clown?

[B]

People's misunderstandings about clown? Well, for, you know, the scary clown, like the birthday clown.

[A]

I don't know how that started.

[B]

Yeah, no, I know. It's terrible.

[A]

Well, it seems like there's a divergence in terms of, like, what clowning maybe started as, and it became the birthday clown, and then it became what you do, which is like a. Like a performance art clown.

[B]

Right. Well, because, you know, the performance art clown are like, what I do. And the really incredible physical comedians of our time, like Charlie Chaplin and Steve Martin and, you know, Lucille Ball, like I was talking about earlier, you know, I don't know how, like, what they do turned into birthday clown, but I can only imagine that it was like, you know, people that really wanted to do those things, but didn't really have a lot, of course, you know, a lot of skill. Didn't have the chops, you know, just threw on a costume to try to, you know, make up for skills that they didn't have to. You know, it's kind of like getting naked, putting on a big costume. But, you know, what I will say is there's this famous clown from back in the day in London named Joseph Grimaldi, and he did wear, like, really elaborate face paint and big frilly collars and stuff like that, but it was just so people could see him from far away. So I think, like, the hack clowns that didn't really have this, you know, skill set kind of just brought it into the birthday space. Yeah.

[A]

You know, got a form into the birthday space.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So got a bad rap. I mean, could you imagine people bringing standup and storytelling into the birthday space? Like, how it would fall from grace. Especially when you.

[A]

I mean, it sort of has in a way. I mean, like, it's. I feel like standup people adopt into. Yeah. Being like the MC of the birthday.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I feel like jokes generally go awry in life. You know what I mean? When you try to export jokes into, like. I've literally been working on this joke lately, and it's not even really a joke, but I say to the audience sometimes I go, these are nighttime thoughts. I go, if anyone's wondering if you should bring any of these thoughts into the daytime, you shouldn't.

[B]

No. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

These are nighttime thoughts. I'm actually trying to hack into that lately, which is this just differentiation between. I think sometimes societally we have this thing where we're like. Where we're like, I'm funny. I'm just saying what the comedian says, like, well, yeah, but you actually. You need the context.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's a nighttime nightclub. You're in a basement somewhere. We're all on the same page.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That maybe this isn't right in some.

[B]

Hole in the wall.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I said this thing lately where on stage I'll go, like, people put too much importance on what comedians say. Like, you shouldn't leave here tonight and be like. And that's how we solve health care.

[B]

No. Yeah. Not at all. Not your job. Not my job.

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe we can laugh a little bit about it. About the struggle.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. That's what it's about, not solving stuff.

[A]

Would you have advice for people who want to do clowning?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say, like, just go do it and go sign up for classes. You don't need to take the fancy, you know, French clown school. You can. That's a great place to learn clown. And there's a lot of great teachers there. But there's a lot of great clown teachers all over the country. Because a big part of clowning, or when you're learning clowning, is you need to listen to what the audience is responding to. So if I pick up this cup and you don't react, then I move on to something else. Or I can try something else with the cup, where I go like this with the cup or something. And maybe you like that. So I go a little bit further with that. You know, that's. But that's a little. You know, I'm cheating a little bit because I'm, like, going sexual, but, like, you know, but like, for this, for.

[A]

The audio listeners, this is just a sexual and you end up with a mug.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm fingering the handle on the mug, but you get what I'm saying? So you're supposed to listen.

[A]

It's all experimentation.

[B]

Well, you're supposed to go to where the audience is leading you to. So, like, their laugh leads you to your bits. So, like, you might have your show that you're doing, but if you hear them laughing at something else, you're supposed to drop that and do what they think is funny.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then you can always go back to what you were doing. But, yeah, that's how you're supposed to create your material.

[A]

Is there anything in your show right now where you're like, it wasn't even in the show, but then the audience just led you there? Oh.

[B]

Well, I have a really good example of that from Nate.

[A]

What's it from Nate?

[B]

It's a spoiler, I think we can do.

[A]

Here's what I'll say to the audience if you're. Go watch Nate. Pause this. Go watch Nate. It's on Netflix. Thanks, Natalie Palamides, Nate. And then come back here and listen to this without a spoiler.

[B]

Okay, great. So the part where Nate is crying at the end in the shower, and I start transforming into a woman, and I turn into. Eventually turn into myself, but first I turn, or first I turn into myself, and then I turn into Ms. Jackson. I had an audience member come up to me after the show, and in that stage that they saw the show, I just turned into myself at the end, and that was the end of the show. And the audience member said to me, I thought in that moment, you were gonna turn into Ms. Jackson. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's such a idea. To return to her to see, like, how she is doing or how she's feeling at the end. Like, we need to resolve this.

[A]

Right. Ms. Jackson was a character from earlier.

[B]

Yes, yes. She's a character from earlier in Nate. And, yeah, so I returned to her at the end of the show, but initially I didn't see that in my mind's eye. Like, I just kind of ended the show, you know, stripping away everything and turning into myself. And you still get that moment in there. And I think that's a beautiful, you know, raw moment in the show. But I think that the show is something completely different if you don't return to Ms. Jackson.

[A]

Yeah, I had that with the old man in the pool where, like, I did it, and it was. I talk about an old man when I was a kid in the locker room of a ymca, like, massaging his testicles. And it was like a. It was like an image I couldn't get out of my head. And literally, Judd Apatow came to the show one night when I was workshopping it and goes, I feel like it has to go back to the old man in the locker room. Like, it has to return there.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And I was like, yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And it's like, I do think sometimes with any art form, like, the piece of art needs friends.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Sometimes the friends are the audience.

[B]

And that's why you workshop it, so that, you know, you can get that feedback from people and give it time to wait.

[A]

Walk me through Amy Poehler producing Nate, because, yeah, that feels like one of the highest honors one could imagine. It truly is Amy being one of, I think, the greatest. One of the greatest sketch comedians, physical comedians, improvisers I've ever seen.

[B]

Yeah. No, she's incredible. It was an honor to work with her. And, yeah, I just feel so lucky that I had that opportunity. And one of her producers saw it in Edinburgh, so they showed her a tape of it, and she just said, I love this. And she asked me to come in for a meeting and told me she wanted to produce it as a special. And, yeah, I was just blown away that she liked it. And, yeah, it was just an incredible opportunity. I think she's amazing. And, yeah, it was just so surreal to have her there at the taping and to have her help along the way. And, yeah, she's just an awesome person.

[A]

How similar is she to Hillary and Chelsea Clinton?

[B]

Yeah, they're neck and neck. They're neck and neck.

[A]

This is something people can see that you did.

[B]

Yes. That was also surreal.

[A]

I can only imagine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You taught Hillary and Chelsea Clinton clowning.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I was there for their clown experience, I guess. Yeah.

[A]

How did that happen?

[B]

I have no idea who wrote me into that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I just got a call from my manager one day, and he was like, you don't have to do this. And I was like, what is it? And he's like, do you want to go to Paris? And I was like, of course. And he's like, and take a clown class. And I was like, okay, that should be easy. And he's like, with Chelsea and Hillary Clinton? And I was just like, I can't. I have to find out what that is.

[A]

Yeah, you sure are.

[B]

I can't say. How would you say no to that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

All the Elements are there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, for a magical experience.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it truly was. It truly was. And yeah. Chelsea let me grab her boobs. Wow. And that was the highlight for me. That was the highlight.

[A]

Were you concerned when I did that? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I was thinking, yeah. I was scared out of my mind. Secret Service is all over the place.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know what I mean? But she consented, of course.

[A]

Do you like teaching non professionals like that?

[B]

You know, I wasn't the teacher.

[A]

Oh, right, right. You're in the class.

[B]

But, you know, they gave it their best. I thought they did a really good job. Right. Yeah. I couldn't imagine teaching them. Yeah, I think that that's quite a challenge.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. This relates to questions we get all the time from comedians, which is like, because I'm a storyteller and it's like a long form thing, people go, how do we. How would one develop this in pieces? You know, with stories it's hard because it's like open mics are five minutes or two minutes or three minutes and it's like, how do you make 10 minutes, 40 minutes an hour? It's like, I think about that with clowning. It's like, how would you develop these things in pieces?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So my show laid. I kind of knew the whole arc of the show just straight from the top. So that show I developed as a whole from the start with Nate. I started with the bit where I wrestle for an audience member. That started as a 10 minute piece that I did at the Tomorrow show for the first time. Do you know Ron Lynch's show, Tomorrow Show?

[A]

I don't know that well.

[B]

It's a staple show in Los Angeles.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's on, I think every Saturday at midnight. Might be once a month now. I'm not sure. So I started with that and then I was exploring different images of masculinity around that idea of that character that I was exploring. And so I just developed different bits around these images that I had. And I would have like a workshop show where I would just invite people to come for free and watch me develop different ideas or different bits. Like at the top of the Nate show, I, you know, ask somebody if I can grab their breast. And that just came from. I was improvising, like chugging a ton because, you know, that's something that you see happen quite often is, you know, guys chugging beers and stuff. Like. So I was just chugging a bunch of Lacroix and I just improvised. Whoever wins this, like Chugging contest, gets to do whatever they want to whoever they want in this room. And I won. You know, my character won. And so it just came from an impulse or an improvisation. I was like, okay, now that I won, right? What do I get to do if that.

[A]

What else?

[B]

Yeah, what would this guy want to do? Probably, you know, grab some, you know, nice jugs that are, you know, you know, aplenty in the room. And so I. Yeah, the first time I did this bit, I was just improvising, like, putting my hands as close as the woman would let me get to her breasts. And then right before I grabbed it, I said, may I?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And it was just, yeah, improvised the first time.

[A]

So the first time you did that, did you have a fear that the person could have a really acidic reaction to that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I was going so slowly that I was feeling them out and how comfortable they were, you know, so, you know, I didn't rush to grab anybody, and I didn't want to make anybody feel unsafe. But, yeah, it was just like walking a tight wire or tightrope. Yeah, walking a tightrope kind of moment.

[A]

That is so fascinating.

[B]

But, yeah. And then in Weir, my show, you know, there's a tragic accident at the top of the show. And so that was the first 10 minute piece I did of that show on. And I just did an opening for Mike o'. Brien. He had a standup show he was doing at Elysian, and he was like, will you open for me? And I was like, yeah, can I try something new? And he was like, yeah, whatever you want. And so I just tried this tragic scene and it went well. And so I was like, oh, there's so much there, like, with these characters. And I really wanted to explore more and more. Yeah, just see what. What more meat there was with those characters and with that story.

[A]

Support for working it out comes from Quince. Oh, man, I love Quince. This year I've talked a lot about Quince's summer and fall collections. You must be thinking that's all they have, right? Surely they don't have a winter and holiday collection. Guess what? They do. They've got my old standby, the $50 Mongolian cashmere sweater. And for the cold weather, they have wool coats that are equal parts stylish and durable. You got a layer, everybody. You're not going to get better layers anywhere else than Quince. By partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans, Quince cuts out the middleman to deliver premium quality at half the cost of other high end brands so you can get luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. Get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com burbigs for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada as well. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Burbigs B I R B I G S free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Burbigs support for working it out comes from AG1. I really like AG1. It is the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants into one simple green scoop. It's one of the easiest things you can do to support your body every day. What's your morning routine like? Coffee, shower, Light stretching. Well, let me tell you, my morning routine has never been the same since I started with AG1. It's become a foundation of my energy and wellness throughout the day. AG1 Next Gen contains more vitamins and minerals than ever before and it's clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps. Don't be ashamed of your nutrient gaps. We all have them. But AG1 Next Gen is here to help you fill those gaps. AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drink ag1.com forbigs, you'll get a welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new slee supplement AGZ for free. Wow. That's a great deal. That's drinkag1.com brewbigs for $126 in free gifts for new subscribers. Okay, this is the slow round.

[B]

Okay, slowing it down.

[A]

Slowing it down. Who are you jealous of?

[B]

Oh my gosh. Everybody on snl. I want to be on SNL so badly.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I made a whole movie about the jealousy of snl.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Don't think twice. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay. So you too?

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's like I had it. I feel like I had it in a different era of my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I don't. You still have it. You're just like, yeah.

[B]

There's a deep part of me that's like, lauren, please. I'm like, don't. Why don't you like me?

[A]

Totally. But has he seen your shows?

[B]

I don't think so. I don't know.

[A]

I bet someone's shown him your Shows.

[B]

I'm sure there's something.

[A]

I can only imagine. Watch a clip. Watch a clip. Watch a clip.

[B]

Yeah. No, but I mean, it's just.

[A]

Well, you'd be an unbelievable cast member.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. But, yeah, no, I'm so happy for all my friends that are on there, and, you know, I'm happy for all those guys. But, yeah, there's a part of me that's like, I wanna be on there so bad. Who else am I jealous of? Anybody who's able to get their thing made without a bunch of executives ruining.

[A]

It, but that's you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you talking about? What executive is signing off on your show?

[B]

Right, right. But I have to, like, make my theater shows because nobody will, like, make my TV show or something like that. You know what I mean?

[A]

I think it's so funny that you're jealous of a thing that people are jealous of you about. What are you talking about?

[B]

Well, thanks, Mike.

[A]

What are you talking about? Your show is so, like. It's the polar opposite of something that looks like it's done with studio notes, right?

[B]

No, it's not. It's not. But I want to be able to make, like, a. A movie or a TV show and not have those things happen.

[A]

Do you want to make movies? Is that what you want to do?

[B]

Yeah, I would love to make, like, dark comedies.

[A]

Do you think that there's a space. I think about this all the time in relation to Chaplin, because my wife and I are also, I think, similarly obsessed with Chaplin.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there a space for a modern Chaplin in film?

[B]

Yeah, I definitely think so. I mean, Mr. Bean is kind of like a modern chaplain, but Jim Carrey.

[A]

In some ways, was during that Pet detective era.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, I think there's, you know, space now for. I think people would really love seeing some more physical comedy in the film space. Like, we don't really have any really stupid, physical, idiotic comedies anymore like we did in the 90s.

[A]

Right. I feel like Will Ferrell had a run.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

In film where, like, Elf and some of those where you're like, oh, this is really. This is really evocative physically.

[B]

No, there's so many great, like, comedies from, like, you know, 20 plus years ago that really embrace, like, physical comedy and stupid visual bits like Austin Powers or Dr. Steve Br. And, you know, Tim and Eric and. Yeah. Superstar. I mean, Amy Sedaris, Strangers With Candy is such a brilliant, like, physical comedy show. Like how her dad is always frozen, like, we need more of that.

[A]

I totally agree. Did your life go how you expected it to go?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I would guess.

[B]

I mean, not at all. I never thought. No. I didn't think I'd be doing, like, these, you know, like, insane theater shows where I'm, like, exhausting myself every day.

[A]

Do you ever stop in the middle of the show and go, like, in your mind, go, like, what am I doing? Like, what have I got myself into?

[B]

100. 100. There's so many moments where I'm like, I don't know if I can make it through. You know, like, there's some shows where I'm, like, inside my head going, whoo. You got it. You can do it. Keep going. Keep going.

[A]

But why that? Because of the audience or because it's so hard to do physically?

[B]

Oh, well, I tell myself to keep going. Cause the audience is there, and I want them to have a great time. And. Yeah, I guess I'm having that thought because I'm just exhausted. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I have it sometimes. I would imagine. You have it. Cause I have it sometimes. Even my shows where I'm just like, well, I guess I'm this person.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I'm this person. What happened?

[B]

Where does that thought come from?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. But see, you never imagine yourself doing what you're doing.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

What did you imagine yourself doing?

[A]

When I was a kid, yeah. Same as you. Sirent lies.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

When I was a kid, yeah. The first thing I watched and. And then at a certain point, making movies.

[B]

Oh, right on.

[A]

And doing it. Yeah. And then at, you know, it was my 20. Like, when I was 20 or 19, I did stand up on a lark.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I was like, oh, huh. I guess I could do this. And. But now I'm like, on a lark. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. I entered a conjured. A contest. Yeah.

[B]

No way. Yeah.

[A]

This isn't about me, though.

[B]

You entered a con. I mean, the contest. Have you talked about this before?

[A]

I feel like I have. I feel like I've touched on it, but. Yeah. Entered a college contest and I won. Yeah.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my first time doing stand up. I play Believe it or Not. It's. It's. It's what you do. I played a character for eight minutes that ended in a musical number. In character.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You sing?

[A]

Sure, why not?

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

I do what I have to.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't that funny? It didn't occur. I Didn't make the connection until sitting here right now. That. That maybe is a thing that I lock into with your shows, is that before I became myself on stage, I used to play characters on stage that were extreme. Not unlike you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But also, like, I veered away from that partly because when you see someone do it, like, you better.

[B]

No, no, for real. You won.

[A]

I won that round.

[B]

I'm sure you were great.

[A]

I won that round. No, but you know what I mean, Like, I'm sure you've had that over the years sometimes where like, you were veering into one thing and then you see someone who's so good at you. Cause it's like, well, that's that.

[B]

Well, 100%. I mean, like, I tried stand up, you know, initially, like, when I first came out to la, I was doing everything. Sketch, improv, ucb, stand up. I was going to open mics.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And like, I said, like, you know, verbally, like jokes, like, I don't know, like, I just don't have that knack for it. And I would just watch people up on open mics just spitting fire and I was like, throwing fireballs. I'm bowing out. I'm bowing out. Like, I would just be up there slobbering at the mic and I'm like, I need to do something else. This isn't for me.

[A]

I'm laughing so hard because I. I do think that we're stumbling upon a thing, which is a feeling sometimes when you explore a lot of things where sometimes you see someone and I have this with you. I see you do what you're doing and I just go fully, okay, I'm not gonna do that. Because that is clearly.

[B]

That's their thing.

[A]

Well, yeah, that's their thing. This is my thing. You're doing it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, likewise with you.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

I mean, like, yeah, nobody can do what you do. And it's just so specific. And the way that you weave details and jokes and meaning into your stories is just so powerful and so uniquely you.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, well, you're often somebody who is mentioned to me as somebody's favorite comedian, actually. Even my GI doctor.

[A]

Oh, perfect.

[B]

I will say that.

[A]

Perfect. I'm so glad. The last thing that we do is working out for a cause. Is there a non profit that you.

[B]

Like to support a nonprofit thing like this?

[A]

Your theater is a nonprofit?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The Elysian.

[B]

So the Elysian is a nonprofit theater. And yeah. The mission is just to support artists taking risks.

[A]

I love the Elysian.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I think It's a gorgeous theater space. It's beautifully programmed. Like, it just seems like great energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you part of a group of people who run it?

[B]

Yeah. So me and my friend Kimberly Stuckwich were the founding members that remain on the board from, like, the original days. And then, yeah, there are a group of people, like, on the board of directors that help to run the theater. And then we have Jacqueline Landgraf, the artistic lateef Teor, the executive director, and Jessica Kelly, the programming director. And the three of them together collectively come up with the programming and the different programs and classes for artists and stuff like that.

[A]

I feel like one of the reasons why. And we'll contribute to the Elysian. We'll link to them in the show notes, encourage other people to contribute as well.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I think it's so important that people do experimental theater right now. Like, I feel like everything is so based on, like, so much theater is just commercial theater based on, like, what sells.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And it's like. And it's like, well, that's not good for artists. Artists and just humanity at large like this. It's weirdly like. Like, with the dawn of AI and all this stuff, it's like the antidote for that is live performance. Yeah. Live performance. Specificity, experimentation, Things that, like, that a machine could not come up with.

[B]

Oh, 100%. I'm totally with you. And I feel like we need to support spaces for artists to explore freely and not feel like they have to make something to survive. A commercial machine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so. Yeah. And just to have that freedom to make something truly bizarre or something truly from their soul or their heart is. Yeah. Special and important.

[A]

Natalie Palmides, I admire you so much. Thanks for coming on.

[B]

Likewise. I admire you, too. And can I. Can I plug shows?

[A]

Yeah. Let's talk about where. Let's talk about where your shows are.

[B]

I have my show. We are. I'm doing in London from January 14th to the 24th.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah. That's all I got.

[A]

What theater?

[B]

The Soho Theater, Walthamstow.

[A]

All right. All right. Well, this is awesome.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Mike.

[A]

Working it Out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out because there's no one that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Natalie Palamides on Instagram. Natalie Palamides. You can watch her special Nate on Netflix. Pretty soon, she'll be touring We're. Which I can't recommend more highly. Including London. She'll be in London in January. Check out birdbigs.com Sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel ikebirbiglia. And please subscribe. It helps us so much. We're posting more and more videos and then they'll get out to more and more people. Our producers are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shub Sarin Supervising engineer Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Jenny and I are going to do another Jokes and Poems soon in January, so sign up for the text message alerts to find out about that in New York City. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really helps. We've got almost 200 episodes, all free. No paywall. Check them out. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell Nate. You know Natalie Helmises character from her special Nate. Next time you run into Nate and trust me with with his huge mustache, plaid jacket and black eye, you can't miss him. Just be like, hey Nate, I know you're struggling with your feelings and your vulnerability. Here's a podcast that might help you. It's Mike Birbiglia's Working it out where Mike Birbiglia talks to other comedians and creatives about the the process and yes, their feelings. So pop on those headphones, Nate. Crack open a lacroix and enjoy. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.