200. John Mulaney: He’s Funny and Here’s Why

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Episode: #200 – John Mulaney: He’s Funny and Here’s Why
Release Date: January 26, 2026

For the 200th episode, Mike Birbiglia reunites with comedian John Mulaney—his very first guest—reflecting on years of friendship, working out new material, the process of stand-up, touring stories, comic obsessions, and the evolution of honesty in their work. The episode celebrates comedy’s inside conversations, the dynamics of creativity, families (old and new), and invites listeners deep behind the curtain into the craft and camaraderie of stand-up.

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Key Discussion Points & Notable Moments

1. Meta-Conversation: Comedy for the Room vs. Comedy for the Audience

• [00:08–06:22]
  • John opens with a self-aware riff about the artifice of podcasts, joking that without an audience, he and Mike’s conversation would be “a hundred thousand times funnier.”
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [00:20]:
    “If we were talking not for them, it would be 100,000 times funnier... Just think, we’d talk so much shit about people and stuff.”
  • The duo reflects on the unique intimacy (and barriers) of performing for vs. with an audience.

2. Comedy as Deep Study & Kind-Natured Roasting

• [07:07–08:23]
  • Comedians devote “a Talmudic level of study” to their peers, picking apart, analyzing, and even roasting with a sense of thoughtful appreciation.
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [07:28]:
    “You just focus in on someone in our field, a contemporary, and we devote a Talmudic level of study to them. It's a wonderful thing.”

3. The Evolution of Stand-Up: Bar Shows & Where Are The Next Guys?

• [08:23–09:07]
  • Debating whether bar shows still exist and marveling at the expansion and changes in the stand-up scene, referencing a classic Seinfeld bit about wondering where the next big names will come from.

4. How John Spends His Days on Tour

• [09:07–10:35]
  • Mike marvels at John’s habit of squeezing in real-life experiences—museums, Supreme Court visits—while on tour.
  • John reveals he not only attends Supreme Court arguments but enjoys listening to whole cases, seeing them as master classes in persuasion.
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [10:10]:
    “It’s like doing nine pieces of local material in 10 seconds. It’s amazing.”

5. Comedic Fascinations: Law, Murder, and Monkeys

• [10:35–12:57]
  • John admits he once aspired to be a TV lawyer and talks about his fascination with “murder” as a topic—which frequently appears in his act.
  • Recalls stories about space monkeys (Beppo!) and the absurdity of recreating history for photos.
  • Mike brings up Mulaney’s SNL “Beppo” sketch, and the pair riff on the necessity of photographic proof in history.

6. SNL Hosting and the Pressure of Cultural Moments

• [13:01–14:14]
  • John talks candidly about the nerves of hosting “Saturday Night Live” (five times in three years) and how even immense success doesn’t erase self-doubt.

7. Gratitude and the Realities of Success

• [14:14–18:50]
  • Mike asks about the challenges hidden behind outwardly enviable careers. John acknowledges his good fortune but admits to struggles with inspiration and pressure to continually “chase the high” of past creative work.
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [15:15]:
    “I love being a standup comic. The idea that some 13-year-old listens to me doing comedy... I like it so much.”

8. On Not Getting the Call for Big TV/Movie Moments

• [18:50–20:29]
  • The pair discuss seeing others get big projects (the “Bear” effect) and the sense of being overlooked—but ultimately feeling at peace with being a “Lou Reed” type: so distinct that casting makes little sense.

9. Surreality of Hollywood

• [20:29–21:47]
  • Both recount surreal film/TV moments: being in a David O. Russell movie, acting alongside Tom Hanks, attempting to drive old cars during tracking shots, etc.

10. Friendship, Families, and Generosity

• [22:01–24:35]
  • Mike fondly remembers staying with John’s parents in Chicago and how comforting it felt.
  • John shares stories about supporting Olivia’s large Vietnamese family, humorously noting the financial and cultural contrasts.
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [24:08]:
    "There’s no wonder in the back of the mind. Do you mean the front of the voice of their mind? The front of the voice, the words coming out of their mouth."

11. On Artistic Honesty and Growth

• [25:01–27:19]
  • Mike observes that John’s live show feels more honest, raw, and “himself” than ever, possibly a byproduct of recovery. John agrees: “Gratitude and self-confidence in comedy is not one of my problems.”

12. The “No Filter” Effect & Pushing Audiences

• [30:25–31:46]
  • John celebrates comics who push boundaries, like opener Robbie Hoffman (“The dyke has to do the parenting. Get out of here, lady. Take your kid...”—[31:54]), arguing audiences benefit from being “pushed around a bit.”

13. Comics Who Make John Laugh

• [32:45–33:46]
  • Shout outs to Nick Griffin, Jessica Kirson, Cat Williams, and a running joke about Cat Williams’ legendary Jacksonville set, now shorthand for a bit that’s hyper-local yet universally funny.

14. Comedy Process: SNL’s Rewrite Table Cultures

• [34:40–36:07]
  • Inside the SNL writers’ room: the magic of generosity, the legend of Seth Meyers adding a transformative tag, and the collaborative spirit of sketch comedy.

15. Ideas That Only Work Among Comedians: “Talking Shit”

• [39:01–39:46]
  • Pitch for a $10,000 comedy festival show where no topic is off limits (“Talking Shit”) and money goes to charity.
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [39:05]:
    "I've always thought that that would be the highlight of any festival."

16. Jokes, Bits, and Comic Shop Talk

• [47:09–52:51]
  • The pair trade bits never fully worked out, including Mike’s “Frank Sinatra story” (“Get out of the way, you fat pigs!”—[48:36]), Uncle Dreesh, and exchanges about bit structure.
  • They riff on the process of shoehorning stories into one-person shows, the oddity of “the John Mulaney voice,” and meta-comedy about joke mechanics.

17. School Memories, Substitute Teachers, and Middle School Absurdity

• [58:36–60:49]
  • Middle school tales: substitute teacher quirks, being yelled at as children, and stories of teachers facing utter absurdity from students (throwing pennies, gossiping on Michael Jordan's retirement, and more).

18. Edgy Material and Pushing the Line

• [55:35–58:36]
  • John works out a provocative bit about the taboo around artistic depictions (e.g., drawing the Prophet Muhammad) and the paradox of being told absolutely not to do something, enhancing the urge.
  • Notable Quote – John Mulaney [56:15]:
    “But strange as it seems, now that you tell me, I can’t draw him. I’ve never wanted to do anything more.”

19. Comedy Bits in Development

• [70:08–72:05]
  • The pair share non-sequitur ideas: foreign currency jokes, being “caught” dancing by a waitress, the mechanics of talking to oneself.
  • John observes that sometimes favorite tags have nowhere to go—until suddenly, they fit.

20. Cause Close to Heart: The Innocence Project

• [72:19–73:17]
  • John spotlights The Innocence Project, a nonprofit seeking to exonerate the wrongly convicted using DNA evidence, and advocates for seeing jury duty as a civic responsibility akin to voting.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “We devote a Talmudic level of study to them. It’s a wonderful thing.”
  John Mulaney [07:28]

• “If we were talking not for them, it would be a hundred thousand times funnier.”
  John Mulaney [05:05]

• Recounting audience roasts at the Comedy Cellar:
  Mike Birbiglia [07:01]: "When I moved here in my twenties, other comedians would really say mean stuff to me... Now they're pretty nice. And Liz goes: 'To your face.'"

• On SNL hosting pressure:
  John Mulaney [13:36]: "If you walk out there and faint and as you’re fainting, say a racial slur like, it’s over. Like, this is not like, oh, no one saw it. It’s so over."

• About family differences:
  John Mulaney [24:08]: "There's no wonder in the back of the mind. Do you mean the front of the voice of their mind? The front of the voice, the words coming out of their mouth."

• On comics “no filter” illusion:
  John Mulaney [32:27]: "There is a filter. There’s a quality control. Because everything she says is funny."

• Comedy festival idea:
  John Mulaney [39:05]: “Talking shit. That’s a great idea. I've always thought that that would be the highlight of any festival.”

• On seeing your influence “ripped off”:
  Mike Birbiglia [39:58]: “What are we doing here?”

• Frank Sinatra punchline:
  Mike Birbiglia [48:36]: "He gets into his car and he pushes us out of the way and goes: 'Get out of the way, you fat pigs.'"

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Topic / Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------|------------| | Opening meta-commentary | 00:08–06:22| | Comedy as deep peer study | 07:07–08:23| | Touring and real-life experiences | 09:07–10:35| | SNL, fame, and the pressure to be “on” | 13:01–14:14| | On the challenges behind success | 14:14–18:50| | Hollywood surreality & Lou Reed analogy | 20:29–22:01| | Family contrasts (Vietnamese family) | 22:24–24:35| | Being more honest onstage | 25:01–27:19| | Audiences, boundaries, and “no filter” comics | 30:25–31:46| | Nick Griffin, Cat Williams, and “Jacksonville” bits | 32:45–33:46| | Inside SNL's rewrite culture | 34:40–36:07| | “Talking Shit” show proposal | 39:01–39:46| | Iconic bits (Sinatra, Uncle Dreesh)| 47:09–52:51| | Middle school, teachers, and getting yelled at | 58:36–60:49| | Innocence Project & civic duty | 72:19–73:17|

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Episode Tone & Style

Conversational, self-deprecating, hyper-intimate, and consistently playful. Both comedians oscillate between shop talk, life wisdom, and gleeful digressions, maintaining a tone that is at once self-examining and deeply inviting to serious comedy fans.

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Additional Highlights

• Riffs on “over-naming” and “under-naming” in society ([64:01–65:52])
• Jokes in development and punchline mechanics ([70:08–72:05])
• Recap of failed or never-attempted bit premises (e.g., currency conversions, bookstore anecdotes, substitute teacher weirdness)

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Charity Spotlight

The Innocence Project

• "They use DNA evidence and to try to prove the innocence... they've gotten hundreds exonerated off of death row."
  John Mulaney [72:19–73:17]
• Website: innocenceproject.org

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Final Takeaway

This milestone episode is a masterclass in comedian-to-comedian conversation—part confessional, part comedy theory, and always funny. John Mulaney’s blend of gratitude, self-critique, and candidness pairs perfectly with Mike Birbiglia’s probing, supportive style, letting the listener in on the creative process, the joys of inside jokes, and the comfort (and discomfort) of honest comedy.

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Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is the 200th episode of Working It Out.

[John Mulaney]

I know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

John Mulaney, I think the first guest and the 200th guest.

[John Mulaney]

So the thing with doing the podcast is I'm very. We have to talk for the audience.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know.

[John Mulaney]

And I'm a little. I'm not frustrated with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Come on.

[John Mulaney]

But you know how much better of a conversation we'd be having if they weren't. If they weren't here and how much just. I mean, if we were talking not for them, it would be 100,000 times funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great John Mulaney. Episode 200, everybody. It's the one we've all been waiting for. I think I have. Have you? John Mulaney is one of America's and the world's greatest stand up comedians. John was one of our very first guests back in 2020. We launched this podcast as a short term experiment. As if you remember, if you go back that far with this podcast, you know, it was a pandemic, baby. I couldn't perform stand up comedy. And I said, well, if I can't do stand up comedy in person, where else could I do it? Well, Strat podcast. And then we did the podcast and here we are 200 episodes later. It's been a great time. I feel closer to all of you. I feel like before I had done a bunch of specials and I felt like we had spent hours and hours together, and now I feel like we've spent hundreds of hours together. We're on a long road trip called Working It Out. Thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for listening to the show, subscribing on YouTube, recommending it to both friends and enemies. It means the world to us. So we never thought that we were going to do 200 episodes. We never thought that we were going to do 100 episodes, but here we are. And we couldn't be more excited to have just one of the best comedians, funniest people, coolest people who I've ever met in my whole life. While we're on the topic, I should point out he is on a major tour right now called Mr. Whatever. And there's two significant things I should point out. One is he's playing the Hollywood bowl in Los Angeles, which is unbelievable, for the Netflix is a joke festival. I am playing the Wilshire E. Bell in Los Angeles. It's May 6th. It's just me and friends. It's like Mike Birbiglia working it out with friends. So I'll probably do, like 20 or 30 minutes of new material and I'll probably have some guests and we'll probably work out some new jokes and should be really fun. So get tickets on burbigs.com Also, I have some tour dates with John, Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen. And I are special guests on a handful of shows with Jon in the fall. We are the support acts in New Hampshire as well as Grand Rapids, Michigan. Those shows have been awesome because basically like I do 20 minutes and Fred does 20, Nikki Kroll does 20 and John does like an hour or something. It's. They're great. So if you're anywhere near those places, get tickets. Hey, one quick thing before we start. I am working on potentially a podcast where I interview listeners about extreme and unusual wedding stories. Do you have a story like you had your wedding at a summer camp, you had it in an absurd place somewhere from your childhood? Any wedding where there was unusual tension or conflict between groups of people at the wedding. Those stories are always really fun. Also, if you know a wedding planner or a wedding photographer, that's a good person to submit also because they've been to possibly hundreds of weddings. But Anyway, [e-mail], we would love to hear your stories and maybe just tell us at the most like a paragraph about the gist of your wedding and we might work on a series of episodes about it and we'd love to have you be a part of it. John's hour is on fire right now. It's so good. We have a great chat today. John and I have been friends forever, which you might know if you listen to this podcast. It's very loose, free flowing conversation. We talk about touring together in our early days. We talk about John's comedic obsession with murder. Murder as well as monkeys and the time he fought three teenage boys on his Netflix talk show. Love talking to John. I think you're gonna love it too. Enjoy my conversation with the great John Mulaney.

[John Mulaney]

If we were talking not for them, it would be a hundred thousand times.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Funnier, I think, because we'd talk so much shit about people and stuff.

[John Mulaney]

But also that's not wrong, you know, like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you do with your friends.

[John Mulaney]

No, no, no. And also it's not wrong to the people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I don't think it is wrong to the people.

[John Mulaney]

What? Like if I've been talking shit about you, think about that. Like I've been thinking about you and thinking to the people you're trashing. I'm not. Don't be grateful. But like think about it that way. Like, I've really thought about you and I thought about you in a way that, like, your significant other might not have. Your family might not have. 100%. I've really thought about you and I. And you've brought me a lot of happiness. We're literally making fun out of you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're in my life and you're being.

[John Mulaney]

Used, like, for fun. And like, I was about to go, and we don't hate you, but that's not always true. But, like, truly, like, that's. It's. You could, you know, like, take think about that. You and I, like, Mike and me, thought about you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. We thought about you a lot and.

[John Mulaney]

Compared notes and egged each other on to go further and darker.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Not flattering in its own way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The other day, I took Oona, who's 10 now, to the Comedy Cellar for the first time.

[John Mulaney]

Really? Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just New Year's Eve. It was the daytime, and we just took her in for lunch. It was me. Yeah, it was me and Jenny and Una. We were in the daytime. Oh, you're in French. We had lunch. It was nice. And, like, she met Esti and Liz and I said, and it was special. She saw where I work, basically. And I go. I go, that's the comedy comedian's table. I go. When I moved here in my twenties, other comedians would really say mean stuff to me. And now they're pretty nice to me. I say this to my daughter and Liz goes, to your face.

[John Mulaney]

That's great. That's really great. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I liked it, of course, for.

[John Mulaney]

The exact reason you're saying, imagine, these are really interesting minds.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Really interesting people who are very discerning about what they spend their time thinking about and analyzing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

You know, so many things. We go, no, no, I'm not going to have a take on that. Don't have a take on that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And then you go in. How about that? Son of a bitch. You get. You just focus in on someone in our field, a contemporary.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And we devote a Talmudic level of study to them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

It's a wonderful thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So I saw your. I took the train down to D.C. and I saw your new. That was an hour and 40 minutes.

[John Mulaney]

It was a little.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. At the anthem. No, but it wasn't. I watched every second of it, completely enthralled.

[John Mulaney]

You were so great. What a fun show that was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks. I was honored to pop on.

[John Mulaney]

My God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was one of those things that I feel like I don't really do anymore or But I want to start doing. Which is just do something for fun.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where it's like, this isn't my job. This is just my friend. He's doing a show. I'm going to just take the train and show off.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's not an obligation.

[John Mulaney]

I'm always looking for something like Moonwork, Tom Schultz.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Which we were working on our stuff there, but it was like, it had this other feel to it. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is a Show in the 2000s in the Greenwich Village. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, Michael Che said that in this podcast last week. He was just like, are there bar shows still?

[John Mulaney]

That's. I don't. I don't mean to be elderly, but I do wonder that as well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Like, there might be. And I don't know about them, but.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, that's the thing. Mabel and Gary were saying, like, there definitely are so many.

[John Mulaney]

So many. That's interesting. More than there used to be. More than there used to be.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But worse.

[John Mulaney]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[John Mulaney]

Remember that Seinfeld where he goes, me and Rock are always talking about, where are the next guys? We were all like, 25 when that interview came out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, what? We're right here.

[John Mulaney]

Where are they? What?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Mulaney]

So funny. Oh, my God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Now there's.

[John Mulaney]

Now we're doing that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Now there's so many of them. Yeah. One of the things that I marvel at when you're on, like, when I meet up with you on the road, is you actually fill your days with real things. Like, I was in D.C. with you and you, like, go to museums and you went to the Supreme Court.

[John Mulaney]

I've gone several times recently.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Were they significant cases?

[John Mulaney]

I went to see our mutual friend Neil Katyal argue the Trump Tariffs case.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

That was the first oral argument I've seen. I listened to them on YouTube. You can listen to the whole three hour oral argument of any case.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you do this.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, often.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, this is. This is astonishing.

[John Mulaney]

They're great. They're very easy to follow. They're very good to listen to for comedy in terms of like. Or rather in, like, broadcasting and communicating.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Neil, Mike or John has about 15 seconds to get the listener.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[John Mulaney]

His listeners are the nine Supreme Court justices.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[John Mulaney]

Truly them. He's not giving a speech that he hopes the outside world likes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[John Mulaney]

He's gotta convince.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He knows. He knows who those two people are.

[John Mulaney]

He knows who those two people are who could be on the fence. Who could he get? And who could he get the right way by citing one of their mentors or talking about a past decision? They wrote using the vocabulary they like. And he's gotta get them fast. It's like doing nine pieces of local material in 10 seconds. It's amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you were a kid, did you want to be a lawyer?

[John Mulaney]

I wanted to be a lawyer that appeared on television. You remember Jerry Spence? He was some sort of a western type guy. He wore a cowboy hat and he wore a fringe jacket. I believe he was a criminal defense attorney. But he would appear on TV all the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I remember that.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I liked lawyers on television. I knew I'd like the closing argument.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

I wanted to be right, self righteous and give long closing arguments.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, you talk about murder so much.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In your act that it's clearly. It's clearly on your mind.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like there's a bunch of stuff like that. Like murder monkeys.

[John Mulaney]

Is it monkeys?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, like Beppo, for example. You did stuff on your talk show.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, we did. You're right. I think about them a lot. A fair amount. I think about the monkey that went into space.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep.

[John Mulaney]

We sent a monkey into space. Right. Whose name escapes me. But, you know, we sent him up after Laika, the dog. Our monkey lived, the dog, Laika died. So they send him up, he goes, you know, the capsule drops into the water. Yeah, the flight went fine for us. I don't know how it was for him. Drops into the water. We can't find the capsule for a while. So he's stuck drowning in this capsule. They finally find him, they get him, they rescue him, they bring him on and then they go, wait, we didn't get a photo of him in the capsule in his uniform. So this poor bastard monkey, they have to put him back. So he just went to sleep. They had to recreate the photo. And he's like, the last time I was in this, I was drowning. And they're like, oh, you're back. You know, and then they put the helmet back. They put the helmet back on and put them back in the capsule to get a photo. Which I totally agree was the right thing to do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you think about.

[John Mulaney]

You can't do that and not have a picture. Can you imagine NASA going, we sent a monkey into space and he's fine and he wore a little helmet and he's back and he's really good. And yes, he had a little spacesuit. No, we don't have a picture. We don't have a picture. That was not what we're about. Yes, it was a tiny helmet. Yes. His name was on the uniform. No. Yeah, he peeked out of the capsule with his helmet on. What do you want? We don't have a photo.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love that Beppo sketch on snl.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, that was great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was a great one. Whenever you host snl, it's phenomenal.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, that's nice of you to say, but it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's. I feel like it's seminal for the show even. Like it's an event that you are hosting because you do a musical and your monster knockout. Yeah, no, not for you, for us.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, that's nice to hear. I obviously look at them as the biggest event of the year, but. Yeah, right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is it like the last like six years in a row or something?

[John Mulaney]

No, I hosted five times in three years.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Whoa.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, like, yeah, it was five times in three years.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is wild.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, it was wild.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you get nervous?

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I do get nervous, but I get grandly nervous, which is then hilarious. Cause you go, this is no joke. If you walk out there and faint and as you're fainting, say a racial slur like, it's over. Like, this is not like, oh, no one saw it. It's so over.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can't tell yourself. Yeah, no, they did they. No, everybody has their bad days. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Like, as you're coming to, you say something racist from a dream, you know, that you've been having while out. There's no. Like, oh, that's okay. You know, come back next week and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

It's so bad. And it'll be so bad right away. Be a cultural moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is there some degree where at. Because you're in the David Russell movie. You're in. You're hosting SNL six times. It's like, at any point do you just go, well, I don't need anything else.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, but I felt that way the first time I did theaters.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you really?

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I was like, this is. As far as I saw this going.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Which was good and bad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like people. I would venture to say millions of people look at your career and say, I want that. Exactly what he has.

[John Mulaney]

That's very nice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I want. And I. But I want to know convince those people they're wrong.

[John Mulaney]

No, I can't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can't?

[John Mulaney]

Okay, I can't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Or tell them challenging. Tell them what's challenging.

[John Mulaney]

But like, I faced almost no hurdles in life that weren't self imposed. Listen, I won the fucking lottery. I'm so Fulfilled and happy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

I love being a standup comic. The idea that some 13 year old listens to me doing comedy, to even meet people now in their 20s, being like, I grew up watching you, that would make some people feel old or something. I like it so much.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Like to think that, like when I was listening to albums by two famously canceled men and then Chris Rock and Other People. Two unmentionables. But so like to think someone's watching my specials when they're like 13 and loving them. It's crazy. Let alone the fact that I get to perform in nice theaters. Like, let alone that I'm really like, what people come up to me about on the street, I'm really proud of. Like, I'm not. I didn't play Salami on the White Shadow or something. Nothing wrong with Tim Van Patten. But someone told me today, did you know Tim Van Patten played Salami on the White Shadow? And I thought that was such a funny credit anyway, so. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So when people come up to you, they're talking about.

[John Mulaney]

Especially they're talking about Big Mouth or they're talking about snl. Snl. Yeah. I go, so I'm extremely happy. I have lots of problems having all that being said. Gratitude and self confidence in the world of comedy is not one of my problems.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have others. Well, that'd be all that being said.

[John Mulaney]

Go ahead.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All that being said. What is your frustrating day that the people, the millions of people who want your car don't know about?

[John Mulaney]

What is my frustrating day?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know you don't want to say.

[John Mulaney]

Well, I don't mean to be Mr. Well Adjusted.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Here's my example.

[John Mulaney]

Pitch what you think it is and I will confirm because I'm not trying to not. I would love to go here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think I want to say it was like a screenwriter once. I was listening to talk about working with. Oh, it was someone you worked with working with Nick Cage.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And the story was like, Nick Cage had won an Oscar and from leaving Las Vegas. And he had been, you know, in, you know, everything and Moonstruck. And they were with his trailer at a movie. The screenwriter was with him at his trailer at a movie. And it was like a TV commercial for Tom Cruise in like a huge movie. And it was like Nic Cage being like, how come he gets that?

[John Mulaney]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's like, what's that for?

[John Mulaney]

You let me think. There's definitely that. I don't mean to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When have I thought that Recently?

[John Mulaney]

I used to think it more. I Used to be like, why aren't I on one of these shows? Right. Um. Okay, well, let me think about it. I don't like dodging the question. I don't mean to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Like, you'd see the bear, let's say, not that specifically. And you'd be like, a little bit. What if I was on that?

[John Mulaney]

And then you walk more like. I just aren't. I'm not. I sometimes go. But I sometimes go. I'm not thought of for that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

But also, like, I don't want to do it either. With some exceptions.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Well, the bear.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. But like, most things you don't want to do.

[John Mulaney]

I feel good about what I've turned down, and I. Okay. But I'm dodging a really interesting question of what's hard. I am often frustrated with what I'm doing now. Maybe there's a bit. Oh, if I only had a bit like I did before.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, okay.

[John Mulaney]

So I have that feeling.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Which is a little of a drug thing. Right. It's like chasing the high.

[John Mulaney]

Well, chasing the quality of work or being inspired by yourself or drugs. Or a drug thing. Yeah. Famous drug guy. Dumb idiot. Has one lens to see everything. Yeah. So there's that. There's that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

I don't know. I will keep thinking as we talk and something will come to me, but I guess I also had those in the past. And then I had to go, you dummy. You're like, we talked about this recently. Like, you and I will sometimes have someone come to our show and go, I love that. I've watched all your specials. And this person will be a director in charge of movies we'd like to be in. Right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[John Mulaney]

And this guy's telling us how great we are and never uses us.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

99% of the time, not hired by the people, being like, I've seen all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your specials most of the time.

[John Mulaney]

Because they're doing their own thing and they love your thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

If you walked. If you met Lou Reed on the street, you wouldn't go, do you want to join my band?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I went home and told Jen. That's that you had that analogy recently.

[John Mulaney]

You'd be like, well, I have a band. You could come play in it. Do less than you normally do. Of course. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, the Lou Reed example, I think, is actually kind of brilliant. If someone does something that's so specific to them, you don't think, how could that be in my thing?

[John Mulaney]

But also, they could put Us in their movies a little bit. But also would we want to. You want to be up at 6:00am on set?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, maybe.

[John Mulaney]

Really? You like it? You direct movies. You like it so much when you direct them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You do, yeah. When you worked with Nic Cage, you worked on the David Russell movies. Like Nic Cage, Christian Bale.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like I feel like I'm the Chris Farley show now. I'm like, was that awesome?

[John Mulaney]

I'll just tell you one moment. Cause I. It was a fantastic experience. I'm sure I was standing on. I won't say too much. I won't say much of anything. I'm standing on a lawn with several of the main stars of the movie and we're having a heated scene and I go, oh my God. I'm in one of those David O. Russell scenes. Yes. Where we all have a lot. We're all going. I was like, oh my God. I'm in one of those scenes. We're just at each other, everyone talking once. It was great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's really, really amazing. And I was in a band called Otto with Tom Hanks. And it was this whole tracking shot where I drive into the shot and the camera comes in and it's Tom Hanks and I fucking sky high. I don't know my lines because I'm like, what am I doing here? I'm driving a car and there. Tom Hanks.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What am I doing here?

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The fuck's going on?

[John Mulaney]

How do you feel about having to operate the car yourself? I had to on this last film. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hard.

[John Mulaney]

It's a little bit like. Guys. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

You want me to stop at a certain moment? Okay, yeah. Never done it before.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And there's people around and I could hit them.

[John Mulaney]

I can't park going inward, but I'll roll you. And I understand we have limited time to get this shot and then I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Have to reset the car.

[John Mulaney]

Right. And it's an old car driving back in. Yeah, yeah. Go in reverse.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, go in reverse.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. In a car.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know that I. When I used to go to Chicago for years I would sleep in your parents house.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you weren't even there.

[John Mulaney]

No. Yeah. You'd go back and stay with them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It was really pleasant.

[John Mulaney]

How come you liked it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I liked it because it. This is so like almost weird in a friendship. I liked that you grew up there.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was nice. I was like, oh, this is homey. This is like where John used to like hang with his siblings and stuff. This is Fun.

[John Mulaney]

And there's a bit of, like, you do your thing, we'll do our thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Everyone just goes into different rooms and reads a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Yeah, that's right. When you go to Chicago, like when you go to Chicago this summer, we're.

[John Mulaney]

Together, but apart a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your family. Yeah, yeah. And now you have a whole other family, Olivia's family, which you talk about on stage. And there's a whole riot.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. So that's a thing where. That's how regular ass of a day it is when I'm with nine Vietnamese people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

That. Taking them to the store, her aunts and uncle's mom, that only a couple days later someone say, what did you do Monday? And I said, I took, you know, six of her relatives to CVS to get child flip flops for themselves.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And then they wore them to a restaurant and that. I'll go, oh, that's out of the ordinary. A little from.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. I love.

[John Mulaney]

So Olivia has a large. She's Vietnamese.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And she has a large Vietnamese family in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[John Mulaney]

Of which I am one of the significant financial contributors.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I understand that for the first 39.

[John Mulaney]

Years of my life, I supported, I think, zero Vietnamese.

[Mike Birbiglia]

None.

[John Mulaney]

None. Probably none. Yeah. Yeah. And Now I have 10 on the books.

[Mike Birbiglia]

10 or so.

[John Mulaney]

A couple. Take Zell.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you thinking that when you are having nice relationship with them, they're in the back of their mind, they're thinking, I wonder if he'll send me a thousand dollars.

[John Mulaney]

There's no wonder in the back of the mind. Do you mean the front of the.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Voice of their mind?

[John Mulaney]

The front of the voice, the words coming out of their mouth.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One of my favorite things you talk about with them.

[John Mulaney]

How refreshing, by the way, to be in a goddamn white family. Never talk about money at all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[John Mulaney]

You know how much money you have, right? Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Olivia's family says how much money you have? Yeah, I like. I actually like that.

[John Mulaney]

That's great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How much money you have.

[John Mulaney]

I tell them they love it. They couldn't like it more.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did they say how much money they have?

[John Mulaney]

Do you remember Todd Berry's joke that if he bought his parents a house, they'd have a worse house. That's a great joke. Yeah. So, you know, you have parents of some success, you know, you can't really do anything for them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And it brings me great joy to help out. Help and do fun things with Olivia's family.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Here's what I observe about your live touring show. Right Now I think you're more yourself than you've ever been.

[John Mulaney]

Okay. I like that in the best way. Yeah, it feels that way. Then I go, is this too. Is this too mean? Not about the family jokes. I mean, just in general. I go like, yeah, like, you know, there's a bit of a. Or is this too nihilistic? Am I let. Am I letting the cat out of the bag?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. But I don't. I don't think so at all. I find it to be. And I think it's probably not unrelated to you being in recovery and all that stuff. And basically, I would say probably facing down, feeling like, oh, this might end my career, and all this kind of stuff. And then you became bigger, I think. I mean, I don't know how to track this thing.

[John Mulaney]

I know how to track it. And, yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So it seems a lot.

[John Mulaney]

Some markers. And, yes, it seems a lot bigger. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so then I think, in some ways, do you think that you were just going to. Well, I faced what could have been the end of my career, and I'm bigger, so of course I can talk about maybe anything.

[John Mulaney]

I don't know if I've articulated that, because I can't talk about anything. Like, I don't mean. I can't talk about some things. I mean, I'm not, like, I'll say whatever the fuck I want because I was once embarrassed and it turned out okay, you know? But I think I just. I don't. I want. Because I was once embarrassed, want my kids to be okay. I just. I mean, I just want my kids to be okay. I just want my kids to be okay. I just want to live you to be okay. I just want my kids to be okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[John Mulaney]

So, like, I don't give a. Like, I don't care about anything. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's. I don't know. It does seem like you.

[John Mulaney]

You.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're comfortable with your audiences being in uncomfortable space.

[John Mulaney]

Did you find, after having, though, a child that looks at you the way your child looks at you? You're like, I don't. I need those people's total adoration and approval a little less.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that's accurate.

[John Mulaney]

But I still like them a lot. A lot. In fact, I'll do shows for them from this day forward.

[Mike Birbiglia]

From this day forward. Yeah. It's interesting, though, because, like, even when I.

[John Mulaney]

And therefore, you break through to the better stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think so.

[John Mulaney]

I don't mean, like, I don't care. And, no, I still desperately love performing. But you just go like this is not, this is not life or death. And so I'm going to be far better at it without these weird stakes of I'm a good, I am of value if this goes well and I'm not if it doesn't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

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[John Mulaney]

That's nice from you. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you're not one of these. You can't say anything anymore.

[John Mulaney]

No, I've always said whatever I wanted.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you say whatever you want, always. But somehow.

[John Mulaney]

And I've had no again, other than self imposed hurdles, almost no problems in life ever. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's sort of fun to watch that. You're you, you, you don't even. Like I said, I'm going to do a guest on your show. Do you mind if I talk about like these three topics that are tricky and sometimes even my audience is like not okay with me bringing up. And you were like, yeah, I like it when people mix it up.

[John Mulaney]

100%. Yeah, 100%. Robbie Hoffman opens for me, joins me for these shows. I just directed a special for Netflix called Wake Up Robbie Hoffman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Robbie's so funny.

[John Mulaney]

She's so funny. First line of her special. Check it out. First line of her set when she opens for me. And I'll tell you, every audience is better for having been pushed around.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're not gonna say the line. You're just gonna say it's a. I'm.

[John Mulaney]

Not gonna say it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Okay. I was trying to translate it for people watching.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. Oh, I'm not gonna say what her first line is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an explosive line.

[John Mulaney]

It's an explosive line. Okay. But it's also a greeting. So. But all I mean is doing shows with Robbie, I'm like, people are smart, audiences are fun.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

They get poked, they get shoved around a little. She told a 12 year old to leave.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And why she goes.

[John Mulaney]

The dyke has to do the parenting. Get out of here, lady. Take your kid and bring him back for John. Go to the lobby. I'm serious. Get out of here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[John Mulaney]

And they left. They could hear her act in the lobby though. It was great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, Robbie's fantastic. Robbie's like quintessential example of a comedian who you're like, oh, you just have no filter.

[John Mulaney]

This is just someone. I think it's just that thing of like the mind, the personality and the creativity operating at its highest level right now, where they're all one. You know, there is a filter. There's a quality control. Because everything she says is funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. Yeah, right. No, it's, it's. Sorry, it's the sleight of hand of no filter.

[John Mulaney]

Right, right, right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's, it's like, oh, my God. I guess. I guess this person's just gonna say all this shit.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And they.

[John Mulaney]

Also, it's no filter. Yeah. Also, it's an inability to keep some things muddled in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who are the people who. Who were the comics who. Who make you laugh the most?

[John Mulaney]

You know who really makes me laugh all the time? Nick Griffin.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, Nick Griffin's great.

[John Mulaney]

I mean, every time I see him at the Cellar.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Jessica Kson.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You love Cat Williams.

[John Mulaney]

I know I love Cat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We've talked at length about the Florida run that he does. The Jacksonville run. He does.

[John Mulaney]

Jacksonville is now a term I know. I use full. For the way they say, like, forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. Jacksonville is when. A bit. I don't understand what the bit is about. I don't know the facts of the bit. I don't know what you're talking about, but this is so funny. So when you see someone do a bit and you're like, I have actually no point of connection with what you're saying, I don't know that these are true examples you're giving. The audience loves them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

I'm gonna trust that this makes sense to someone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[John Mulaney]

But it's so clearly funny that I'm laughing so hard. That's called Jacksonville now. Because he does. I believe.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's 12:18. Maybe. It's like 18 minutes.

[John Mulaney]

Minutes on the city of Jacksonville.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A comedy touch point.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where comedians will talk about how cat Williams does 15 minutes of the beginning of a special about local references in Jacksonville, Florida.

[John Mulaney]

And it's so funny that the neighborhoods sound like soap operas. And then he gives examples, and they don't to me, but, like. And they don't. And I don't know if those are real neighbors. It's like, it's perfect. It's a perfectly closed system that is somehow you go, I know that. I have total trust that this is hilarious, and therefore I'm laughing as if I know all of these.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you were a writer at snl, what was your favorite type of person in the writers room?

[John Mulaney]

James Anderson.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, okay. But what type of person? Like, what's the quality of a collaborator that you were drawn to when you were at the show?

[John Mulaney]

Rewrite table. Fun.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[John Mulaney]

Very generous. At rewrite table. The first year I was there, there were nine writers.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

There's a lot more now. We were at one table on Thursdays for rewrite. Seth Meyers, Paul Lepel, Emily Spivey, Simon Rich, America Sawyer. Rob Klein, Colin Jost, James Anderson, Kent, Sublette, Brian Tucker. And if I'm leaving anyone out from that one season, they're update writers as well. And everyone sat at one table. Jim Downey occasionally. And everyone kind of cross pollinated. I wrote with Paula. I wrote with James.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Simon and Paula would sign together. Everyone worked together, and everyone really was quite generous with, like someone giving you a joke on Thursday. I mean, what are these sketches? They're 2 minutes, 53 seconds.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

They're often good for one. They often get one take home joke from the whole episode. Another writer might just give you that at the rewrite table.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

It's wild. You know, we're not all these, like, auteurs that bring our things on Wednesday and then take them back and then put them up Saturday for dress. It's like someone's going to give you the tag. That's going to change. Seth Meyers is just going to effortlessly give you a tag that changes the whole sketch from, you know, a car to an airplane.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm going to do the slow round.

[John Mulaney]

Unless you know what this was for. Oh, yeah, what's that for now? I think it's stupid.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm not going to. No, no, let's do it.

[John Mulaney]

This was originally for. And what happened was I had a bell ding.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[John Mulaney]

And I left it in Chicago. I flew in this morning. So I got this on Instacart from obviously, I don't even need to say what store that's from. It's famous, famous product of theirs. Staples. If you complimented something or someone that I knew you didn't respect, I was gonna hit the buzzer only to say.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That'S what I do.

[John Mulaney]

I do it too. We both do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, but you think I do it.

[John Mulaney]

On this show or if something came up. We both do it publicly. It's not picking on you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I get it. You can't pick up me. I like it.

[John Mulaney]

If someone came up and we went, mm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then you hit the button.

[John Mulaney]

And if you were too diplomatic, it was gonna.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was easy.

[John Mulaney]

A little too slow, too. The timing's almost funny. It's so bad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was easy.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. I really thought it was gonna have a buzzer sound. I was very disappointed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's if I'm complimenting someone who I don't respect.

[John Mulaney]

If you drifted into something that I go, nah, we've talked about this and we know this isn't good. You know, I think sometimes we both will fall into certain polite, diplomatic platitudes. I do it as well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. I respect that.

[John Mulaney]

But I Didn't bring the bell. And the button's not. The timing of the button isn't good. Why are you confused by the idea that we would say something polite?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm trying to think of who I've said it about.

[John Mulaney]

There's people you will talk about positively. That if I leaned into it, you'd say a lot more interesting stuff about them. Maybe that's what the bell's for. As would I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, Right.

[John Mulaney]

How do we market that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

If you poked at it.

[John Mulaney]

If I went.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But there would be more there.

[John Mulaney]

I'm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Come on.

[John Mulaney]

And then you go, yeah, no, I'm terrible. But I mean, this one thing worked out well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know what you mean.

[John Mulaney]

How do we market that, by the way?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, it's like that. I'll take this out. But it's like, how do you market what.

[John Mulaney]

How do we sell what we do privately?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I. No. Unsellable.

[John Mulaney]

I always thought there should be, like, a $10,000 ahead ticket at the Montreal Comedy Festival midnight show. No one under the influence allowed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

So, like, you gotta. That's hard for a lot of industry people at Montreal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know.

[John Mulaney]

$10,000 ahead. No comps. Absolutely no comps.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting.

[John Mulaney]

The second something leaks, the show's over.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a great idea.

[John Mulaney]

We would do it every year. Donate the money to something really important.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[John Mulaney]

If you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Anything. Oh, yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And you're taking money out of someone's pocket. A charity.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. That's smart.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do we call it, though?

[John Mulaney]

Talking shit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Talking shit. That's a great idea.

[John Mulaney]

I've always thought that that would be the highlight of any festival.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Talking shit.

[John Mulaney]

Because these comedy festivals again, though. Interesting, too. It's an interesting exercise. We care about our goddamn craft a lot. Craft? I never said that before. We care about the biz and the other people we have to run into. We care a lot about them. We think about them a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think when people, like, rip off your voice and your style?

[John Mulaney]

Dude, I've heard they do, but I don't. I can't think of anyone that does.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We know who did.

[John Mulaney]

I don't, actually. You want to write it down? Write the first letter. Oh, I'm not that familiar with that person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[John Mulaney]

But I'll check it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I just watched it the other day. I was like, come on.

[John Mulaney]

Interesting. Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What are we doing here?

[John Mulaney]

That's cool, though, I guess. Of course it's cool.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[John Mulaney]

How'd you feel about people that ripped you off?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, there's two or Three.

[John Mulaney]

Do you like it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's fine. Yeah, it's fine.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, certainly, like. Yeah. I mean, look, how do you feel.

[John Mulaney]

About the one person show thing that you started being a thing now?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like, net positive.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Net positive with caveats.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But sometimes people think that there's no jokes in the shows, and I'm like, no, there's jokes.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, someone will make me the show and I'm like, okay, this is fine. But like, there's no jokes.

[John Mulaney]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I don't. I don't know.

[John Mulaney]

I mean, you can, you can do each of those shows at Go Bananas in Cincinnati. I know. And you do have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's where I develop these things is in clubs, but yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Do you remember that time when. When you start comedy and, like, you want. You almost want to seem high?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Because like, then you're like. Then they'll just think I'm this crazy person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[John Mulaney]

I remember reading To Kill a Mockingbird. There's a guy, there's a. There's a white gentleman who hangs out with the African American characters in the book. And so he always has a bottle in a paper bag so that other white Southerners just think he's a drunk and don't judge him. Really. But they say that in the bag is soda because he's not actually drunk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right? Yeah, no, I think that that is.

[John Mulaney]

Kind of cowardly, now that I think about it. But I. I just remember going, like, right, you. You can get. You can move in the world if you're like, yeah, but that guy's a drunk, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think that that, that's.

[John Mulaney]

That guy's high. That comedian's so high that he can't expect a laugh for each of these sentences.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's certainly what I thought when I was starting out was.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I was really stilted. Like, I. I liked the way David Byrne talked and stopped making sense, you know, like, anyone have any questions? Like, very, like, stilted, childlike, whatever that was. Do you remember you gave me this note once, a lot of my premises, I would say the premise, and then I'd say something and I go, that's funny to me. And here's why. Remember, I'd always say, and here's why, here's why. And then I'd explain, you were like, you don't need. Here's why.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Here's why.

[John Mulaney]

That's ridiculous. And here's why.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And here's why. When you wrestled the kids.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, it was hard.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was There and you came off and you were like. You were like Adarsh grabbed my hand. I didn't know that was. And then I was like, oh shit. John really cares about this.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so I don't know if people realize that it's. It was a bit, but it was also. Not a bit.

[John Mulaney]

No, it was not a bit in that. It was. It was produced. Chaos. Yeah, quite produced. There was a ref. Rules.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Language rules. I mean really. We took off our rings and watches like it was. But then like no one knew what would happen, including myself. I just was like, what if everyone was like, you're so afraid of getting your ass kicked. I was like, no, I'm afraid of just like dislocating one of their collarbones in the melee of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right then.

[John Mulaney]

It's a 13 year old.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of course.

[John Mulaney]

That would have been so bad, I think.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[John Mulaney]

Did you. Did you know I began a little bit. That would be unfair to the boys.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so you did.

[John Mulaney]

No, there was a moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean I can say it. You can't say it. You did.

[John Mulaney]

There was a moment that I think I could have gone for Adarsh and I didn't I say that though, knowing the other two were on my legs. So could I have. There was a moment where I possibly could have thrown Adarsh. Okay, but Adarsh. And this is interesting, right before the fight, I never talked about this. Okay, we're taking off the rings and watches the camera moves over to Richard. He looks at me, goes, how's the family? And I went, what the fuck do you say? And then we got to get in the ring, just. I was like, what do you mean? What do you mean? You know where my fucking kids live. Like I didn't know what it meant and it really threw. Smart. It was really smart.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How's the family head games?

[John Mulaney]

Seriously.

[Mike Birbiglia]

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[John Mulaney]

Would say or things or show not just people about movies or shows about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Me that, like, you tell me now. You go like, oh, yeah, I could take that as a note. What.

[John Mulaney]

What's the real thing I would tell you?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no. What's the thing you wouldn't tell me? What's the thing you'd say to Dan Levy backstage in D.C. when I'm in the other room?

[John Mulaney]

There's not really any, but I can tell you. Okay, that's what this. That's how the whole world stays together. I don't want to know what you've said about me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, okay, so there is something, but you don't want to say it.

[John Mulaney]

I'm sure I've known you for 26 years. Yeah, but nothing like, no character assassination.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. Is there follow up? Is there something that I'm. I could do comedically that I. You think I might be resisting doing comedically?

[John Mulaney]

I wish you'd do Uncle Dreesh. I wish you'd do Uncle Dreesch.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was gonna bring out Uncle Dreesch today. I was gonna also bring out the Frank Sinatra story.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, my God. That's one of the biggest artistic critiques I'd ever had. I almost considered buying it from you. Okay, they're beyond. First off, let me say Dreesh and Sinatra listener are very different. Dreesh is a strange slice of life. Frank Sinatra is a perfect story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, I'll start with Sinatra.

[John Mulaney]

I'm so jealous. There's two bits I'm really jealous of. Joe Zimmerman has this long thing on Andrew Jackson that I really loved. I've watched it. I watched him do it in a couple different YouTubes. And then it was on one of his CDs. And I like. I have versions I like more. Like, I really love the bit. Then you have the Frank Sinatra story, which.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it's really simple.

[John Mulaney]

Why haven't you fit it into something? Well, because it doesn't have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It doesn't have punchlines.

[John Mulaney]

It just. The Sinatra story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The Sinatra story is this.

[John Mulaney]

Hold on. If you're listening to this, like, really, like. Yeah. Okay, get ready.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So. Okay, so the gist of it is, like, I have relatives in Buffalo, New York. And. And they're, you know, they're not in show business at all. But one time I'm talking to my aunt and I go, like, have you ever seen, like a. Gone to a concert or live show? And she goes, well, when we were teenagers, we were teenagers who went to see Frank Sinatra. And I was like, oh, wow. And she was like, yeah, he came to Buffalo. We were huge fans. And even afterwards, we went in, into the alley to see him at the stage door, and it was a bunch of us. And he came out and. And we couldn't believe it's Frank Sinatra. And we go, frankie, Frankie, we love you. And he gets into his car and he pushes us out of the way and goes, get out of the way, you fat pigs. And that's the whole thing. And then what's amazing about it is that they still love Frank Sinatra. Like, there's nothing this man can do to make them not.

[John Mulaney]

Out of my way, you fat pigs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Out of my way, you fat pigs.

[John Mulaney]

I think that. I think about that story a thousand times a day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a crazy story. It's like, Frankie, Frankie.

[John Mulaney]

He saw teen girls excited to see him in Buffalo. And if they're teens, this is like the 60s. He's not like 20. He's a man of like 45.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Out of my way, you fat pigs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And she fully did the voice and everything. You know what I mean? She had it. And you go, that's not a made up story. That is fully what happened.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, I've never in my life doubted the story. Oh, my God.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Get out of my way, you fat pigs. Yes, someday. Someday I'll figure out. I mean, I just.

[John Mulaney]

How do you think that has. No pun. It is a punchline.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is a punchline. It is a punchline. It's just like, you know, usually I just have to find a causality. So then in that.

[John Mulaney]

I know, but you can always make it up, shoehorn it, right? This trick is. Sometimes there's gotta be tricks for getting jokes. You want into these one person shows where you wedge them in and you go, that doesn't really make sense.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then Uncle Dreesh is less. Uncle Dreesh outrageous.

[John Mulaney]

Which is less outrageous.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a simple truth. Truth, which is. I go, I got a landline recently, and. It's, you know, no one knows the phone number. And so when people. When the phone rings, it's a mistake.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And. And so one day it was ringing and I pick it up and I go, hello? And the Person goes, hey. And I. Hey. I adjusted my tone. And then they go, who's this? And he. And. And the voice goes, you don't know? And he goes, you better get to know. And I go, no, I don't know who this is. He goes, uncle Jeez. Uncle Jeez. I do not know you. And he goes, sorry about that. And then he hung up.

[John Mulaney]

And. No, but you missed that. In the middle of the call, you looked out the box.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I look out the window. Yeah, like in the movie Scream.

[John Mulaney]

At the beginning, you're about to. Yeah, you better get to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Now you be good to know.

[John Mulaney]

Then he reveals the name. Every part of it is funny because he. He seems like he's not going to reveal his name. And then his name couldn't be just slightly stranger. It's Uncle Dreesh. You don't know. Well, you better get to know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You better get to know.

[John Mulaney]

No, really, who is it? It's Uncle Dreesh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The other joke I do that is in the universe of you, which is. I don't even know if you've seen me do this. I go sometimes in a. You're. If you're married long enough, you don't even have to express an idea through words. You know, like my friend John said to me, because I want to go skydiving for my birthday, I'd love for you to come. And I go, that sounds amazing. I went home to my wife. I relayed this conversation. She goes, you gonna do that? And that's when I realized I wasn't gonna do that. I go, no way. Why would I want to do an activity that seems so dangerous yet so fun? Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because ultimately, I'm more afraid of my wife's judgment than I am of jumping out of an airplane at 9,000ft. Both activities are somewhat dangerous, but at the end of one of them, you get to die.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's a fun bit, but it was. Do you remember saying that to me?

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. I had planned to go skydiving. No, I never went. I was gonna go on my 30th birthday. I was gonna go on my 35th birthday. I had lots of plans to go skydiving.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You ever gonna do it?

[John Mulaney]

Maybe. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When I brought it up with Natalie Palamini, she pointed out that it. It's one person deciding whether you live or die.

[John Mulaney]

But that's everything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's everything.

[John Mulaney]

That's driving.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes, that's true. You're right. Driving is that.

[John Mulaney]

Owning a knife.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Owning a knife is a good example.

[John Mulaney]

You got one downstairs. What do you mean I don't own a knife? A knife. I put my life in your hands coming here. You have a knife downstairs, you have a deadly weapon.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right? That's fair.

[John Mulaney]

It's not. Barely makes sense.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, you said it in your John Mulaney voice.

[John Mulaney]

That works. I said it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

I said it definitively. It would work for like, a few dates. And then I'd be like, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You ever show up at gigs, people go, when are you going to do the John Mulaney voice?

[John Mulaney]

I do. You think impressions of me sound like me?

[Mike Birbiglia]

They're in the universe. Like, it's funny. Like, Peter Pete Holmes was on. He did it recently. Like, it's not the nuance.

[John Mulaney]

There was a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I love.

[John Mulaney]

There was a young man on YouTube who did it once, but he went, my mother woke me up at 4 o' clock in the goddamn morning to tell me I was adopted. It was like that. And I was like, that's what I think. It wasn't like, hello, you know, that's John Lovitz. But maybe I sound like that, but I know I don't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[John Mulaney]

I just want to read you something. You can cut this or not by talking about that. Have you ever read Stephen King's National Book Award speech?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know if I have.

[John Mulaney]

When he won the National Book Award, I'll read one part of it. Let me see here. So it was very controversial, Stephen King winning it to some people, people like Harold Bloom. And he gave this speech, basically thanking his wife, saying the entire award was hers. So I can read this. There were some hard, dark years before Carrie. We had two kids and no money. Carrie being the novel that broke him. We rotated the bills, paying on different ones each month. I kept our car, an old Buick, going with duct tape and bailing wire. It was a time when my wife might have been expected to say, why don't you quit spending three hours a night in the laundry room, Steve? Smoking cigarettes and drinking beer we can't afford. He would write in the laundry room every night, why don't you get an actual job? Okay. This is the real stuff. If she'd asked, I almost certainly would have done it. And then I'm standing up here tonight, making a speech, accepting the award, wearing a radar dish around my neck. Maybe more likely not. In fact, the subject of Moonlighting did come up once. The head of the English department where I taught told me that the debate club was going to need a new faculty advisor, and he put me up for the job if I wanted. It would pay 300 per school year, which doesn't sound like much, but my yearly take in 1973 was only 6,600. 300 equal 10 weeks worth of groceries. The English department head told me he'd need my decision by the end of the week. When I told Tabby about the opening, she'd asked if I'd still have time to write. I told her not as much. Her response to that was unequivocal. Well, then you can't take it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mm.

[John Mulaney]

Isn't that great?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, that's beautiful.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You just come upon that today?

[John Mulaney]

I've been thinking about it for a few days.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

I was talking to a friend about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you have bits you're working on? Do you want to share any?

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, sure. You go first.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, I said Uncle Dreesh. And that's not who you're working on.

[John Mulaney]

That's not. Those are all. Those are stories that I've told you for years to do there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's more interesting when you start.

[John Mulaney]

Do you remember when, like, 10, 11 years ago, suddenly people were like, hey, don't ever draw the Prophet Muhammad?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes, of course.

[John Mulaney]

That was weird, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's weird.

[John Mulaney]

That was. It was interesting. Not trying to make it tense, but it was. Oh, okay. I never thought. I was like. I never in my life thought about doing that. I don't even draw. I've never drawn a person. If I made a list of a thousand people not in the top thousand, I'll do you one better. I've never thought about the guy. Peace be upon him. I've never thought about him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

But strange as it seems, now that you tell me, I can't draw him. I've never wanted to do anything more. Yeah. And what is the penalty for doing that? Death. Well, immediate death. You have no idea how much that sweetens the pot. For an addict like me, it's a strange. It's of note. I want to be respectful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's of note.

[John Mulaney]

It's of note. Don't draw me. Okay. Do you want us to. You brought it up, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm surprised no one's walked it back a little. Been like, hey, we're okay with the drawing stuff. You know what I mean?

[John Mulaney]

I think it's fair to say it wasn't walked back yet, But I don't know. Also, the. I don't know what's happened since that moment in time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think it's not walked back is my sense.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. I would never do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I have no plans.

[John Mulaney]

No. Even with a group where we couldn't all get in trouble, right? I once had this substitute teacher. She came in one day of third grade. Never saw her before. Never saw her since. She comes in, she goes, I'm gonna go around the room. And, no fake names, right? And we were like, oh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[John Mulaney]

I remember. I was Gus. I was like, oh. Then fake names you shall get.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, fake names later.

[John Mulaney]

And she was teaching us American history. And we get to Muhammad Ali. It is page on Muhammad Ali. And she goes, boo. I liked when he was named Cassius. So funny. So funny. I missed it when he changed that name. Cassius. It was great. This was just a woman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love the. The move into substitute teachers, essentially inventing the idea of saying fake names.

[John Mulaney]

One the. When you said, I love the idea of substitute teachers, I know it's somewhat trodden territory, but I also just love the idea of it. Like, how about we just don't do it today, then? A totally unqualified.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe no class.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, maybe no class. Or you could be like, I'm sure there's something you're reading. You could continue doing that. As opposed to, like, here's a lady. I never liked when he changed his name from Muhammad Ali. Cassius. Such a cool name. It was so great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Middle school is endlessly, like, amazing. When you think back on memories of middle school. Like, I have my scrambler bit. I have different bits. But even, like, I have things that I've never even put on stage that are so crazy. Like, I remember my eighth grade science teacher. I'll just call him Mr. Lowman. It was not his name.

[John Mulaney]

Okay, Compare him to the most sad sack character in history, Mr. Loman. I'll just call him. I'll call him Willie Loman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'll call him Willy Loman. But Mr. Let's just say Mr. Loman would get up in front of the class, and when he turned around, the kids in my class, not me, made a concerted effort. They decided that they would throw pennies at his head.

[John Mulaney]

Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's so crazy now as a grownup to imagine some. A group of people throwing pennies at a science teacher. An eighth grade science teacher. But at the time, it was so funny.

[John Mulaney]

Wow. That is. That's extreme.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's extreme.

[John Mulaney]

Whipping them at his head.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I. Brutal.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. We had a teacher. I remember the day. The morning after Michael Jordan announced he was retiring. The first time. Okay, we've won the three, Pete. He tragically loses his father. He retires before the season Begins. I'm in sixth grade, we're in homeroom. That morning, the hubbub. You can't imagine a bigger hubbub. Just, oh, my God. Every kid going nuts. Going nuts. So upset. We were so upset. How can he retire? How can he do this? He went, all right, we gotta start. People, everyone, people, people. Mr. Shah's going, people, people, Settle down. People. This is right. How can he do this to us? I can't believe this. What's gonna happen? He goes, people, people, people. His father didn't just die.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He was murdered.

[John Mulaney]

He was murdered.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[John Mulaney]

But it was like. It was as if he was also like. We knew he'd been murdered, but the way he said it was almost like he was revealing it. Don't you see? His father didn't just die. He was murdered.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God, he was murdered. I sure did.

[John Mulaney]

People would scream at you at that. That's. Why have you been yelled at as an adult, like, hard?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[John Mulaney]

It's so disorienting. Cause you go like, it's not like this has never happened before. You're like, oh, this used to happen a lot. But I just knew how to deal with it back then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had it happen on my first.

[John Mulaney]

Movie, Get Outta have It.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When I made Sleepwalk with Me. There was this company that was gonna make it, and they decided they weren't gonna make it. It was the first company. And I called the guy, hey, we're not gonna do it. I'm just gonna go off and do it on my own, really low budget. And. And he goes, where are you? And so I'm like, on the Upper West. He's like, I'll meet you at such and such a pub. I was like, okay. I go. And he goes, mike, it's like we're having beers at a pub. If you make this movie, you will fail. Wow. And I went home, and Jen always talks about this. I had, like a. I buckled over, and I had a stomach ache for three days.

[John Mulaney]

And. But it was just the.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Being yelled at as a grownup is so devastating.

[John Mulaney]

It's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's.

[John Mulaney]

But you also go like, oh, I used to the same way sunburns have gotten easier. I was like, this used to be just part of my deal. What are you doing? Tuck your shirt in, huh? Like, that was like, every day. Was that the new style to have your shoes unlaced? Someone scream at you? The craziest people. I've talked so much about lower school, middle school and lower school. Like, I'm. And I have a whole bit on assemblies and. But like, I still, I still can't get over that people would just come speak to us as a school about things like kidnapping and murder. Oh yeah, it was so funny. They would just not just that, they'd come in and talk about self esteem. They'd have some like this. I don't know where the school found these people. They had some like. It was almost like a NACA where we would go entice colleges to book us. There must have been some sort of knacker for like I come in and I have a whole weird presentation about self esteem and I leave each of them with a button.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

But like I tell weird stories from my life as a positions coach on the Bears. And you told.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I saw in there was some news clipping or news article about the bitten binder bit. Yeah. That you did.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The guy being mad about it.

[John Mulaney]

Detective Bin Biden was mad. He said that I mixed it all up to be funny. It was truly like a definition. He goes, no, he mixed up the details real good. I never wore cowboy hats to the schools, which I. And he has passed on. So I will be respectful. That is not true. He did wear a cowboy hats to school.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He wore cowboy hats.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, but that was. He's like. So you can tell he's lying because I never wore the cowboy hat to the schools, but he did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is something I've been doing lately, which I think is kind of fun. Is like I was in a bookstore on the road and I realized about an hour into it that it's a feminist bookstore. And I'm like, you can just call it a bookstore.

[John Mulaney]

I heard you do that. It made me laugh a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's funny, right?

[John Mulaney]

It made me laugh a lot and I didn't quite get it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, it's.

[John Mulaney]

Do you mean that if you're selling books, you're probably selling books, you're buying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Books, you're consuming books you're probably a fan of.

[John Mulaney]

But there was a little. There was a little Jacksonville in it where I was like, I like it and I don't. I just laughed when you said it on stage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[John Mulaney]

I just liked it. And I was like, I just like it. I think he means that. But if he doesn't, I'm also.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, that's fine too.

[John Mulaney]

That's Jacksonville. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then I just go like. I just go like. I think if you're a feminist, I think the last thing you should be telling non feminists is like, oh, yeah, you don't think Men and women should be treated equally well. Also, I don't think you should read.

[John Mulaney]

You know, I don't get that part.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[John Mulaney]

You're saying if you're a feminist, don't own a bookstore.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it's like, it's like if you name something like a feminist, you're like, this is a feminist book. It's like, what are you. Don't you want people to read?

[John Mulaney]

Oh, you mean why put. Reading is already really hard. Why put anything in the title of your store?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, and also like, yeah, exactly.

[John Mulaney]

And. And also like call it party books too. Like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And ch. Chances are like, the more you read, the more likely you'll think men and women should be treated. And then like, and then I go like, like I was thinking about feminist booksters and I was like, I think sometimes people over name things like, or overstate them. Like I was at a, a, a bed and breakfast and you open up the welcome booklet and it's like, this is a gay friendly bed and breakfast. I know, that's really funny. Like, like a bed and breakfast that isn't gay friendly is a haunted house. It's not a good business model. So I've been doing that run lately. I think it's fun. I think like I want to do like a larger piece about the over naming of things like the under naming and the overnight.

[John Mulaney]

What do you think's under named?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Under named is like. I mean, honestly, like. And you saw me do a little piece of this, like under discussed I think is suicide. And I do like a whole chunk about it. I won't do it on this podcast yet because I think people will get mad. But I'm like, I think it's such an epidemic, it's such a problem that I think people should talk about it more. And that's part of the reason I've been talking about on stage lately. This is crazy.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We shouldn't be like avoiding this as a topic.

[John Mulaney]

The act of increasing, which I also thought was really funny to say. No, no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The epidemic coming.

[John Mulaney]

This is crazy. Knock it off. Under no circumstances knock it off. Fred and I used to talk about going to like a like landing in like South Sudan, like war torn ass, sectarian civil war, violence of which we have no understanding going. Everybody knock it off. Multiple guys hanging off a truck with machetes. No way. Stop it right now. Guys. This is crazy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You gotta do that as a bit.

[John Mulaney]

Fred had a sketch that didn't make it to air where it's his first. It's his and Josh Brolin's first day in jail. And Fred makes an announcement to the whole mess hall, like. And you know what? Don't even try it. So it's sort of like, I speak for both of us. And Brolin's like, no, he doesn't. And he's like, yeah, and I'm not joining any gangs. Okay. I say, like, really, like, laying it on. It's very funny, but we always talk about the guys.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Enough.

[John Mulaney]

Get out of the truck. Put them down right now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have other bits, you know, in.

[John Mulaney]

King Kong or like Frankenstein or the Elephant man, when they bring out King Kong, Frankenstein or the Elephant Man. And there's like a black tie audience assembled to see this thing. What was that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, right.

[John Mulaney]

Can you imagine telling your wife you're going to that? What are we going to again? This guy is gonna unveil something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's very funny.

[John Mulaney]

How long is it? I don't know. It could be a minute and a half. It could be an hour. He's a scientist. He's been in the jungle for a year. And he's back and we're going. Do I have to dress up the most you've ever dressed up? Yeah, Full. Full gala.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Full black tie. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I.

[John Mulaney]

And then when it freaks and it charges the audience, except for the Elephant man, who didn't. What was that? It's funny when people talk about show business has only gotten less grimy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I mean, Jen. Jen wrote a poem about this once. Topsy the elephant people would go to town as a demonstration for either Tesla or Edison, and they would fucking electrocute an elephant. Really?

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it. And that was entertainment, you know, it was just like bananas.

[John Mulaney]

Wow. Cause it was like. Can you imagine anything bigger getting electrocuted? No. Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Electrocuting. Sorry. Oh, it was a documentary. It's a documentary from 1903 that's one minute long.

[John Mulaney]

That's not a documentary. That's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

By the way. IMDb rates at 2.7 stars.

[John Mulaney]

Okay. Really low.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Electrocuting an elephant is a 1903American black and white silent actuality, short actuality.

[John Mulaney]

I like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an actuality depicting the killing of elephant Topsy by electrocution at a Coney island amusement park. It was produced by the Edison Film Company, part of Edison Manufacturing. It was an ed. It was a Thomas Edison demonstration of electricity.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. So I remember hearing that he got pretty weird. Like he.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You think?

[John Mulaney]

Well, no, like. Like for a while. Like, he got really into the electric chair as well. Now I sound like someone who doesn't know history but is sort of spouting off. I've never taken a good photo of the moon.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's funny.

[John Mulaney]

It's just a, that's an actuality.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I like that.

[John Mulaney]

I have a lot of those.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had one that I, I did with Julio on here. And I think it is funny, but I don't know what to do with it, which is I was at breakfast at my hotel and I was inadvertently like dancing in my seat, like to the music.

[John Mulaney]

Uh huh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then the waitress caught my eye and I realized I had to make a split second decision. Do I stop dancing or do I continue dancing?

[John Mulaney]

That's really funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, am I a dancer?

[John Mulaney]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Or was I a dancer?

[John Mulaney]

Right, right, right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like at Too late.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, I do that with talking to myself a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, you do?

[John Mulaney]

Like, don't act caught.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

You're a great thinker.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, right. No, I think that's good.

[John Mulaney]

Do you know, you know in a foreign currency when like, like they'll be like, is 22 million yen, but that's actually only like $1,000. I'm always like, can we make these? Some of these got to be a little closer. I'm like, what? I get that it's different, but do you understand how million, like how I would be like, oh, that sounds like a lot at first. And then you always have to go like, that's only like a thousand dollars.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Mulaney]

600 million lira is about 500American. You'd be like, could we bring it one of them down a little or one of them up? Good. I like that. I tried that. I've been thinking about that for a long time and it got nothing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait, which one?

[John Mulaney]

Just now. I know now to just put that away.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's funny. I just don't, I don't know where to go. I wouldn't know where to go with.

[John Mulaney]

I don't know where to go with most of my favorite things. I don't know where to go with.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One of the things I love about your shows is like, like I feel like that might make it in as a tag to something else.

[John Mulaney]

I think it might. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like I find a lot of times with your show, it's like you're over here. I find that like when you talk about the trampoline parks.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like you're talking about trampoline parks and then you're way over here and then you're back in the trampoline parks.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's hilarious.

[John Mulaney]

Oh, look, looky again. I figured out a way to get the thing that doesn't work in. All right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think we'll go to Working out for a Cause. Is there a nonprofit you like to support?

[John Mulaney]

The Innocence Project? Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know you support the Innocence Project a lot. We've. I've done benefits with. With you over the years to support them. It's a great organization. It. They use DNA evidence and. And to try to prove the innocence.

[John Mulaney]

Yeah. They've gotten hundreds of people exonerated off of death row. They have other projects as well, taking on the problem of plea bargains and other problems in our justice system. Innocenceproject.org, it is a great organization. It is a great organization.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And if you think about the idea of it, that being. Treating justice as a sacred thing in our country is a real thing.

[John Mulaney]

Absolutely. And I sort of talked to them once about some sort of rock the jury thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

In that sitting on a jury is as much your responsibility as voting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

And if you are continually watching true crime documentaries and appalled by verdicts where the obviously innocent person and the jury ignored this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[John Mulaney]

Then don't skip jury duty.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. We're going to contribute to them. We're going to link to them in the show notes. John, I continue to be in awe of all of your work.

[John Mulaney]

What were your favorite parts of the podcast so far of this?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, we could talk about it. It was really fun working it Out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out. Cause there's no. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow John Mulaney on Instagram at. John Mulaney. You already do. You can find his tour [e-mail] check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, you can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, ikebirbiglia. If you've never watched the shows before, this would be a good one to go watch. Anyway, if you're willing to subscribe, we appreciate it. It helps us out a lot. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shub Saran. Supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky. Special thanks as always to Jack Antonoff and and Bleachers for their music. They've been with us since the very beginning. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Oona, who built the original radio fort made of pillows in 2020. Thanks most of all to you who are listening and have stuck with us for five and a half years. If you enjoy the show, now would be the time to rate us and review us on Apple podcasts. It helps us out. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell the monkey you're about to shoot into space. Right before that hatch closes. Just say, hey, little fella. Here's an old iPhone preloaded with 200 episodes of Mike Birbigli is Working It Out. It's a podcast where Mike Birbiglia talks to other comedians and other creatives about the process. No, he doesn't talk to monkeys, but I think you'll like it just the same. Why 200 episodes? Well, you might be up there for a while. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.

[John Mulaney]

Sam.