202. Connor Ratliff: How and Why To Do Improv

Summary

Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out

Episode 202: Connor Ratliff – How and Why To Do Improv

Release Date: February 9, 2026
Host: Mike Birbiglia | Guest: Connor Ratliff (with Chris Gethard)

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant, improv-centric episode, Mike Birbiglia sits down with acclaimed actor, writer, improviser, and podcaster Connor Ratliff, joined by mutual friend and comedian Chris Gethard. They dive into Connor's journey from rejection by Tom Hanks to the success of his celebrated podcast "Dead Eyes," and his evolution as an actor and improviser. Packed with insights, anecdotes, improv philosophy, and practical advice, the conversation offers a masterclass in creativity, listening, and resilience—whether you’re an improv nerd or a curious outsider.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Connor’s Career: From “Dead Eyes” to Improv Cult Hero

• The “Dead Eyes” Story:
  • Connor recounts his infamous firing from Band of Brothers due to Tom Hanks allegedly saying he had “dead eyes,” how this setback haunted him, and how he turned it into the much-lauded podcast Dead Eyes.
  • “I treat [the podcast] as if it's like the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. …The comedic sort of premise is that most of the episodes are actually diversions from that.” (Connor, 06:21)
  • The comedic goldmine and real catharsis: Tom Hanks himself appeared on the podcast, and shared the brutally honest line:

  “Oh, if you had dropped [my friend’s] name, you would not have been fired.” (Connor retelling Hanks, 08:01)

• Hiatus and Reinvention:
  • After early career setbacks and a frustrating agent encounter (“You can own that” [12:40]), Connor stopped acting for a decade, retreated to working at Barnes & Noble, and only rediscovered performance through improv at UCB.

2. Connor’s Improv Philosophy & Tools

• The Power of Listening:
  • When asked what tools make an “elite improviser,” Connor’s answer is simple:

  “Listening to other people is the main one…You have to be responsive. You have to be paying attention to your scene partners.” (Connor, 17:24)
  • Chris and Mike riff, noting how listening sets great actors and improvisers apart—citing everything from Kazan’s approach to the overlap of improv and traditional acting.

• Being Yourself vs. Imitation:
  • True improv is about individual perspective:

  “If you’re just trying to imitate what you’ve seen other people do, it’s very different than if you’re really bringing your true, weirdest specific version of yourself.” (Connor, 19:35) • Standup and improv: once competitive, now more harmonious, and in Connor’s eyes, fundamentally about “bringing you.”

• Practicing Honesty and Directness:
  • Sometimes the most “plain and simple” move is the best (“You’re my dad.” “You’re my pediatrician.”). Trying to be clever can muddle a scene—clarity serves the ensemble and the audience.
  (Connor and Chris talk shop about in-scene adjustments and gifts, 22:14–23:36)

3. Improv as Life Training & Art Form

• Improv for the Joy, Not the Fame:
  • Both guests stress: don’t do improv to get famous—it’s a winding, rarely lucrative path.

  “It’s not a reliable stepping stone. Actual show business is a whole different world.” (Mike, 30:04)
  • Improv as a “creative outlet” and “life experiment”—say yes, enjoy the experience, let it improve your listening and life skills.

• Parental Support & Generational Connections:
  • Unique tidbit: Connor’s parents, especially his dad (an improv performer under Del Close), encouraged him to take classes:

  “I'm the only person I know whose parents were actively encouraging [improv]...” (Connor, 15:41)

4. Improv Pet Peeves and Common Mistakes

• Naming Names, Overused Moves:
  • Connor dislikes when improvisers break the scene by calling him “Connor” on stage, or default to hacky situations like courtroom scenes.

  “For me, the whole point…is make—unless there’s a real [in-world reason]…that’s not who I was being.” (Connor, 37:13) • Overly grand gestures (“the best picnic ever!”) can ring hollow unless the scene justifies the exaggeration.

• Fighting and Saying ‘No’ On Stage:
  • On “no” in improv, Connor clarifies:

  “Any improv rule is true until there’s a fun, interesting, or good reason to break it.” (Connor, 54:48)

• The Value of Mistakes:
  • (Via Jackie Marchie’s question) Connor and the group discuss “flubs”:

  “There are mistakes, but in the sense that those mistakes are…opportunities…The thing that goes wrong turns out to be the thing—if that hadn’t happened, it would have just been same old, same old.” (Connor, 40:30)

5. Memorable Improv Anecdotes

• Gethard’s Presidential Underwear Story
  • Chris Gethard recalls Connor’s multi-year commitment to a presidential candidate bit on Gethard’s show, culminating in a live reveal of custom “candidate” underwear (35:17).
• The Power of the Worst Idea
  • Mike and Connor agree: sometimes the joke you toss around as a bad idea ends up being the golden one.

6. Improv at Any Age & Turning Off Self-Criticism

• Never Too Late (& Judd Apatow’s Query):

  “I started late…I don’t think there’s any age where I wouldn’t be curious to see what you would get out of it.” (Connor, 51:40)

• Silencing Shame:
  • They share a neuroscience study: expert improvisers, like jazz musicians, actually “turn off” their brain’s voice of shame (DLPFC), freeing their creativity.

  “I think I might have turned mine off just generally.” (Mike, 57:06; laughter)

7. The Actor’s Lot & Detachment From Rejection

• On Casting and Rejection:

  “No matter how—like, I know I’m a good actor…But I also know I am not right for almost everything.” (Connor, 46:48) “99% of things that are made you and I are wrong for.” (Chris, 47:04)

• Movie Star vs. ‘Tweener’:
  • Connor humorously details scrubbing through video footage, noticing that onscreen, co-star Rachel Zegler always looks perfect (“keyframes”), while he appears in those awkward “in-betweener” moments (48:16).

8. Improv In Practice, As Process

• Examples & Mini Masterclasses:
  • Connor shares a “math of the scene” story about improvising as a thermometer salesman during a child’s poisoning scenario (41:31)—an improvisational “aha!” moment about making bold, relevant choices.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | | --------- | ----- | ------- | | 08:01 | “Oh, if you had dropped that name, you would not have been fired.” | Tom Hanks (via Connor) | | 17:24 | “Listening to other people is the main one…You have to be responsive.” | Connor | | 19:35 | “If you’re just trying to imitate what you’ve seen other people do…it’s very different than if you’re really bringing…your true, weirdest specific version of yourself.” | Connor | | 40:30 | “There are mistakes, but in the sense that those mistakes are…opportunities.” | Connor | | 54:48 | “Any improv rule is true until the moment that there’s a really good…reason to break that rule.” | Connor | | 51:40 | “I started late…I don’t think there’s any age where I wouldn’t be curious to see what you would get out of it.” | Connor | | 57:06 | “I think I might have turned mine [the inner critic] off just generally.” | Mike |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [06:21] – “Dead Eyes” and turning pain into comedy
• [12:40] – “You can own that”: Connor’s breaking point with agents
• [16:07] – Starting improv & Connor’s unique family support
• [17:24] – The only tool of great improvisers: listening
• [22:14–23:36] – How to handle confusion and “put out fires” in scenes
• [35:17] – Presidential underwear: epic commitment to a long bit
• [41:31] – The “thermometer salesman” story—embracing improv mistakes
• [51:40] – “Never too late” for improv, advice for late starters
• [57:06] – On shutting off the internal critic (the neuroscience of improv)
• [58:06] – Charity spotlight: Paws NY, providing aid for at-risk pet owners

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Tone & Style

The conversation is open, self-deprecating, warm, and full of affection between longtime friends. The tone blends wry honesty, navel-gazing, creative wisdom, and a persistent sense of play—all in the spirit of “working it out.”

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Additional Resources & Recommendations

• Connor Ratliff:
  • Instagram: @connorratliff
  • Watch The George Lucas Talk Show (YouTube)
  • Check out Connor Ratliff Presents: The Acting Class
• Charity: Paws NY — helping NYC residents keep their pets.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

If you’re passionate about improv, acting, creativity, or are just looking for fuel to get up after rejection, this episode is a gem. You’ll leave with real, applicable insights—whether your stage is the UCB, your living room, or life itself.

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Transcript

[Connor Ratliff]

I met with this agent. She had asked for a reel, and I didn't really have much. I had, like, two things on a VHS tape.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I gave her this tape, and.

[Connor Ratliff]

She said, I'm gonna be gone for a couple weeks. When I get back, I'm gonna look at your reel and then we'll take it from there. And so a couple weeks later, I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Called and they said, I haven't had.

[Connor Ratliff]

A chance to look at your reel yet. Call back in a week. So I called back a week later, said, I haven't had a chance to look your reel yet. Call back in a week.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I thought, you know what? I'm gonna leave it two weeks. So I called back two weeks later and she said, yeah, I haven't had a chance to look at your reel.

[Connor Ratliff]

So I'm thinking maybe you can just, like, come pick it up and then you can own that.

[Chris Gethard]

That is the voice of the great Connor Ratliff. Connor Ratliff is here after all these years. One of my favorite actors, writers, improvisers. You may know him from his podcast Dead Eyes, which is one of time magazine's top 100 podcasts of all time. It was an exploration of being hired and then fired on a production that was produced by Tom Hanks for the show Band of Brothers. And the reasoning was that he had, quote, dead eyes. We explored that today. You may know him from his live show, the George Lucas talk show at UCB and other places at Edinburgh Fringe Festival. He was also in Don't Think Twice. He was an improv student in my movie Don't Think Twice. He's really, really funny. He has so much insight into improv and acting. I think you're going to love this conversation today. Even if you don't know Connor, he is kind of a. I would describe him as a cult comedy figure. The people who know him love him from the Chris Gethard show, for example, which he wrote for and performed on for many, many years. So I think you're going to love this episode today. By the way, thanks to everyone who has signed up for Working it out premium on Apple Podcasts. And there's an episode with Connor Ratliff that is up now, where we take your jokes that you sent to us and we attempt to punch them up. That's up now. If you subscribe, you'll have all the episodes, 200 episodes with no ads, and you'll get these bonus episodes like the one with Connor. There was another one with me and Jenny. There was one with Pete Holmes where we punch up your jokes. Anyway, the bonus episodes are really, really fun. We appreciate it. It helps support our show. And I also wanted to mention that I have some tour dates coming up with John Mulaney, who was on our 200th episode two weeks ago. These are some dates that John Mulaney is headlining with special guests Nick Kroll, Fred Armisen, and myself. We are doing a show in New Hampshire. We're doing one in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We're doing one in Canada as part of the Great Outdoors Festival. Those shows have been so, so fun. I'm going to be doing my own show at the Netflix Is a joke festival May 6 at the Wilshire Ebol Theater in Los Angele. Tickets for that [e-mail] it's just gonna be me and friends. It's not a full complete new show, but I'll probably do maybe a half hour and 45 minutes of new material, plus special guests working it out with friends. Join me in Los Angeles. I love this chat with Connor Ratliff. Very improv focused episode. I ask him questions about improv from listeners who seem to be improv nerds. I'd say the questions are are very nerdy and good. We talked to our mutual friend Chris Gethard on the phone, who calls in. Connor was a big part of the Chris Getherd Show. If you're at all interested in improv or acting or theater, there's a lot of great talk on this episode today. Enjoy my conversation with the great Connor Ratliff. So, okay, so to introduce you to the audience, if they don't know you, they might know you and love you. It's like you had, I would say, the most pop thing you ever did was Dead Eyes, your podcast, which was, you know, Time magazine's like, top 100 podcasts of all time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

Which is amazing.

[Connor Ratliff]

It was really a scrappy little podcast.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There were basically three of us making it, and then we added a fourth person, an extra producer for the third season. But it really was just such a small operation. That was not a big achievement to get that level of acclaim and attention.

[Chris Gethard]

It's a great example of a simple idea, which is that you're an actor. Many years ago. You were not cast in Band of Brothers.

[Connor Ratliff]

I was cast in Band of Brothers.

[Chris Gethard]

I'm sorry. You were cast in Bassett. I'm sorry. We're not even going to cut this out because I'm going to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because it's an important distinction.

[Chris Gethard]

Going to mis. Explain it on Purp. No. You were casting Band Brothers, which was a beloved series about World War II of all time.

[Connor Ratliff]

When it came out, nothing had been bigger. Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

And it had a huge cast, and it was Tom Hanks produced. And then after you were cast, it came to you through the grapevine that Tom Hanks himself said, I don't know if this guy's quite right. He has dead eyes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. He was directing the episode I was.

[Connor Ratliff]

In, which was the best news in the world to me until it wasn't like. It was like, oh, my God. And he's directing my episode.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then the day before we were supposed to film, I got the call, you gotta go re audition for Tom. He looked at your tape. He's having second thoughts.

[Connor Ratliff]

He thinks you have dead eyes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So then I have this very surreal encounter where I go in and I.

[Connor Ratliff]

Audition for truly, like, as small a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Part as you could have in something.

[Connor Ratliff]

This was not a star making performance, but to me, it was like, this is my entry into. Into film and television. This was gonna be my big break.

[Chris Gethard]

Of course.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then it ended up being instead, you know, I got fired immediately. I read for him.

[Connor Ratliff]

Everyone's very friendly, but then they're like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They'Re gonna go another way. And I was devastated by it. And then decades later, I make this.

[Connor Ratliff]

Podcast that sort of treats it as if it is like the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. I treat it as if it's like, we're gonna figure out what. Which was. The comedic sort of premise of that podcast is that most of the episodes are actually diversions from that. They're mostly. I'm in one.

[Chris Gethard]

We're just talking about how you were in my movie don't think Twice.

[Connor Ratliff]

You're in one. Man, you were baffled. You kept saying to me when we were getting ready to record, like, I don't know why you were fired. You know, like, you were like, I don't have the answer.

[Chris Gethard]

I agree. I stand by that.

[Connor Ratliff]

And then as we're doing the episode, you started realizing, oh, I get what this is. I get what this is. And then at the end of the episode, you actually had one of the biggest reveals of any episode, which was I just casually asked one of the questions I asked everybody, which is, have you ever crossed paths with Tom Hanks? You're like, oh, yeah, he actually is a big fan of Don't Think Twice. And he sent me a nice email.

[Chris Gethard]

That's right, what you're in.

[Connor Ratliff]

And he said, I love everybody in the movie. And I was like, mike, Mike.

[Chris Gethard]

Yes.

[Connor Ratliff]

He loved everybody in the movie.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have to Count that he loved me in the movie. And of course, Tom and I are now on good terms.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah, he came on the last episode of the show. Right?

[Connor Ratliff]

He came on the last episode of the show. We had a great conversation.

[Chris Gethard]

Well, he's the nicest person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Not just that I was sort of prepared because he's one of the all time talk show guests, which is a.

[Connor Ratliff]

He's one of the all time SNL hosts, one of the all time talk show guests. But a talk show guest is a performative thing. He comes on, he's got the great story, he's got the, you know, he's got the energy to sort of spar with the host.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He having not listened to my podcast at the point where he came on.

[Connor Ratliff]

And I heard later when I met Rita, the first thing she said to me was, oh, he was so scared. He was so scared to come on your podcast.

[Chris Gethard]

Oh, my God.

[Connor Ratliff]

Without ever having heard it before, he engaged with it exactly how I had hoped, which is he just sort of was like, tell me what happened. Because he didn't remember. And then he was fully like. He said things in that interview that were not like, unless maybe he's so media trained that you can't get past how good he is at it. But I don't think it's that. He said things in that interview that were so honest about the way the business works. Like, there's a point where I brought up that when I re auditioned for him, I had just made my own little movie with a good friend of his whom he casts in all the things he directs, this guy named Holmes Osborne. And I started to mention this to him and before I could even ask the question, he said, oh, if you had dropped that name, you would not have been fired. Which is like a really, like, shockingly honest answer about the way. Because you think most people would try to be like, oh, no. Well, no preferential treatment. But there is a thing where it's like, oh, if he vouches for you, I know I can trust you in this little part. You're not going to screw it up.

[Chris Gethard]

You know, it's interesting, like, well, a couple things on that. First of all, you're a great actor.

[Connor Ratliff]

Not always.

[Chris Gethard]

Hold on. I think you're a great actor.

[Connor Ratliff]

Thank you.

[Chris Gethard]

And I've had series of informal readings of my next movie I'm working on. And you were kind enough to play the lead, which you're not the right age, not right for necessarily, but you did it just as a friend just to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just because you enjoy Doing it.

[Chris Gethard]

You're the right voice for it. But, like. But when I'm watching you act, I'm just going, oh, my God. You are gonna. I'm convinced. Mark my words. On this podcast, you're gonna have, like, a. Like, I think like an Edie Falco or kind of like a Gandolfini kind of career.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think at this point, I'm gunning for a Richard Farnsworth.

[Chris Gethard]

No, but, like, we're somewhat.

[Connor Ratliff]

Okay.

[Chris Gethard]

Or it's Farnsworth. He got cast, like, before he died, basically.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. Like, as the old, old man in the Straight Story.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. So, like. But you're gonna have a career where. Where something breaks you as an actor. I'm convinced that your level of acting is this. Where something breaks you and people go, oh, my God, Connor Ratliff was with us all along.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's very nice.

[Chris Gethard]

And by the way, my producers can vouch for this. I never say this. This isn't like my, like, stock.

[Connor Ratliff]

Like, I know. No, I know. I know. You don't.

[Chris Gethard]

I'm convince, are, like, this undiscovered mega talent of acting. Do you feel like. Like, where do you feel like. Like, this is. One of the questions the producers had today is like, you've been in acting and improv and comedy for probably 25 years.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, no.

[Chris Gethard]

And you. And you haven't had your Straight Story yet, and you haven't had your Sopranos.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The thing is, after. After the Band of Brothers experience, I gave it one more crack. I moved to New York, and I tried to start over. I had been acting in London, and I thought, well, I'll move to New York. And I made no traction. I couldn't get anywhere.

[Connor Ratliff]

And there was a case where I met with this agent, and it was almost like this was the thing that was truly the end before I stopped for about a decade, was I met with this agent, and she's, like, asking me, like, so, what do you do? What do you do? And I said, well, I've done this, and I did that. She goes, and when I was growing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Up, you know, I'm classically trained, I did a bunch of Shakespeare as a teenager in drama school in England. And she goes, can I tell you something?

[Connor Ratliff]

Never read a Shakespeare play.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And she was so proud, like, she'd.

[Connor Ratliff]

Gotten away with it. And I was like, oh, no. Cool. And then she said she had asked for a reel, and I didn't really have much. I had, like, two things on a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

VHS tape, and I gave her this tape, and she was getting ready to Go away on her honeymoon.

[Connor Ratliff]

So she said, I'm gonna be gone for a couple weeks. When I get back, I'm gonna look at your reel, and then we'll take it from there. And so a couple weeks later, I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Called, and they said, I haven't had.

[Connor Ratliff]

A chance to look at your reel yet. Call back in a week. So I called back a week later, said, I haven't had a chance to look at your reel yet. Call back in a week.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I thought, you know what? I'm gonna leave it two weeks that way. Plenty of time. So I called back two weeks later, and she said, yeah, I haven't had a chance to look at your reel.

[Connor Ratliff]

So I'm thinking maybe you can just, like, come pick it up, and then you can own that, and then we'll just see what happens down the line. I was like, okay.

[Chris Gethard]

So I went, that's a terrible outcome.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I remember that verbatim, including the pause that you can own that. I'm like, I think you did watch the reel. And I went back to the.

[Chris Gethard]

That's the title of the episode. You can own that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I went back to this office, and I got buzzed into the building, but I hadn't been buzzed into the office, and I was coming to pick up.

[Connor Ratliff]

This VHS tape, and they wouldn't buzz me into the office. And I said to the person, I was told to come in and pick up my tape. And they said, you don't have an appointment. And I said, I'm just coming. I was told to drop by and pick up my reel. And they were like, no, we're not gonna. And I thought. And I just remember saying to them, throw my tape in the garbage. I don't need it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then I was done for, like, a decade. And I didn't, like, do any acting stuff, and I just worked in the bookstore, and I was happy working. I was working at Barnes and Noble, Union Square, and I did a bunch of creative stuff during that time that nobody really saw. I wrote a novel at one point.

[Connor Ratliff]

No one will ever read.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Got rejected from a bunch of places.

[Connor Ratliff]

So those people got to read it. But that's it. I've just kind of. I don't even know where it is now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I was just really done with it. And then I started doing improv because I saw a couple of shows, and they looked fun. And at first, someone. I said, how do people perform here? I was at ucb.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I said, how do people perform here? And they said, oh, well, you take a bunch of classes. And I Was like, nevermind. I completely shut it down. Cause I don't need to. I'm not gonna take any more classes. I've already gone to drama school in two different countries.

[Connor Ratliff]

I don't.

[Chris Gethard]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was like, I don't. I don't want to.

[Chris Gethard]

Who needs this?

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then at a certain point, my parents kept. Encouraged me to take improv classes because.

[Connor Ratliff]

My dad used to do improv back.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In Chicago under Del Close.

[Chris Gethard]

Oh, my God. I mean, that's outrageous.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There was a. Yeah, he was in.

[Connor Ratliff]

A group with Betty Thomas from Hill.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Street Blues, who directed like the Brady Bunch movie and all these other comedy movies. Basically he was living in Chicago, my parents were living in Chicago. And he saw a sign saying audition.

[Connor Ratliff]

For an improv group.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So he went and auditioned and he got put in the group.

[Connor Ratliff]

And it basically was just like a team. They would rehearse every week, they would practice every week, and then they would.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do a show on Sunday nights. And I have these posters in my.

[Connor Ratliff]

Apartment for the improv shows they were doing. I just recently actually went and did my show in one of the venues that used to be. Whether that my dad would do improv. So I grew up and like, Del Close would be in a movie on tv and my dad would be like, oh, that's Del. That's Del Close.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And it was sort of this name that I was like, oh, yeah, my dad did improv. It was sort of in the back of my mind, and I never thought about doing improv. And my parents kept encouraging me. They were like, you know, Amy Poehler has a theater and they do improv and they do classes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You should take classes. I was like, I don't know.

[Connor Ratliff]

I'm the only person I know whose.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Parents were actively encouraging that this is.

[Connor Ratliff]

Not a normal thing. Everyone I know who does improv, their parent. The best case scenario is the parents.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Understand what Emperor is.

[Chris Gethard]

They were the prodigal son of the family.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. The.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And Whereas I. I finally did it because my mom said to me, look.

[Connor Ratliff]

Just take a class, and if you don't like the first class, don't go back.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that made.

[Connor Ratliff]

It was the first thing where I was like, yeah, what's the harm? And I took the first class, and I immediately knew that I wasn't good at it, and. And that I was curious because I knew I was funny and I knew I was good at acting, and I knew I had a writerly mind, but I was like, why don't I know how to do this? Like, I, Like, I knew I had certain elements that were necessary for it, but I'm like, there's something I'm not understanding about this that I need to figure out. And I did improv for years without thinking I was going to get back into acting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was an accident. I just was doing it because I enjoyed it and I was intrigued by it.

[Chris Gethard]

So you went on to be amazing improviser. So I asked people on Instagram for their questions about improv. For you, Sam, Donald Bowers wrote, what are the top five tools of an elite improviser?

[Connor Ratliff]

An elite improviser, which is an oxymoron. Yes. Yeah. It's like being king of the swamp. Oh, you.

[Chris Gethard]

You mean the. The. The field of study where. Where everyone is broke.

[Connor Ratliff]

The. Yeah, the tools. What are the tools for good improv? I guess.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. Or a handful.

[Connor Ratliff]

Like, listening to other people.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

Is the main one just, like, paying attention?

[Chris Gethard]

T.J. and Dave, I think always say, big ears.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. That it's not just having ideas and executing them, because you have to be responsive. You have to be paying attention to what your scene partners are doing. And even to some extent, whenever I'm doing solo improv, I'm still being responsive to what I'm getting from the audience in terms of that, the audience sort of becomes the thing that you're working with. So listening is the main one. And then I don't know if there are any others.

[Chris Gethard]

That's interesting.

[Connor Ratliff]

I mean, it's hard to think what the other ones are.

[Chris Gethard]

You're not entirely wrong. And I think, like, it carries over into acting too. What's so crazy is like. Like, I'm kind of obsessive over reading, like, things that Ily Kazan has written. He always talks about, like, the actors he wanted to work with were people who could listen.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

Because some people just can't listen.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. If you're too busy thinking of, oh, I'm going to do this thing next, which you do have to be thinking and coming up with ideas. But, yeah, the listening is the main thing because I guess another thing is, like, figuring out who you are as an improviser and what you like doing and being the most honest and interesting person, a version of yourself you can be. Because a thing that, like, we don't need anyone else to start doing improv. It's not a thing like. Like, we need, like, nurses or teachers.

[Chris Gethard]

No. No.

[Connor Ratliff]

There. The world doesn't. Oh, if only more people were trying to improv.

[Chris Gethard]

No, no.

[Connor Ratliff]

But to the extent that there's a need for even one more improviser, it's so that the thing that is good about, oh, another person is trying to do it is if that that person is unlike anyone else.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And your improv should reflect that to some extent.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That if you're just trying to imitate what you've seen other people do, it's very different than if you're really bringing.

[Connor Ratliff]

Your true, your weirdest specific version of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yourself in that.

[Connor Ratliff]

Anyone. Like there's certain kind of improv that you see done where you're like, you can imagine 20 other people doing the same version of that scene. But the really great improvisers are people where you're like, no one else would do the scene that specific way.

[Chris Gethard]

That that's exactly where stand up and improv overlap, in my opinion. And for years when I was coming up in the 2000s, I did improv with my group, Little Man, Nick Kroll and Brent Donovan, Ed Harrow, Conrad Mulcahy, Chris Fosdick. And we were at ucb and meanwhile I was doing standup also. But there's always this competition between stand ups and improvisers. Like they didn't get along or we improvisers really, we don't do stand up. And standups were like, we don't do improv. And it's like, no, it's actually, I believe, same muscle.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an interesting thing because I always perceived it there was, I think there was more tension. There used to be more tension than there is now.

[Chris Gethard]

Way more.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I always perceived it to be that I didn't sense that the improvisers really had an issue with standup. I always felt like standups hated improv because.

[Connor Ratliff]

And they would, you like a stand up would walk into an improv theater.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And they would see a bunch of.

[Connor Ratliff]

People on stage going like. And they'd be like, what is this?

[Chris Gethard]

You know, But I'm gonna grill you on the, on the listening thing. So you're saying like top five things, listen, listen, and then no other things.

[Connor Ratliff]

Basically, that's the most important thing.

[Chris Gethard]

But let's drill down on the listening.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

If it indeed takes up all five spaces, how do you get better at listening? And B, how do you know you're on the right track to getting better at listening?

[Connor Ratliff]

I guess some of it is there are other like, skills you have to learn in terms of how to initiate scenes, how to, you know, how to act. If you're not an actor, if you're coming at it, you're not like, I came into it already knowing how to act. So that was one thing that. Because there are, like, writerly improvisers who.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are great at the writing part of.

[Connor Ratliff]

It, but they struggle with the acting part.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But if their writing is good enough, it doesn't matter.

[Chris Gethard]

Okay.

[Connor Ratliff]

So there are skills and things like that you start to learn things like, don't worry about. Sometimes you trip yourself up trying to be too elegant and say something the way you're like, sometimes you just need to say things that are not great writing but they communicate to your scene partner. Like, you know, you're my pediatrician, you know.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And my kid is sick.

[Chris Gethard]

Well, to give. You're giving a gift to. To your scene partner.

[Connor Ratliff]

Sometimes you're like, you wouldn't write that in a script because you'd be like, let's just establish this through other, you know, in a mov. Just show it's a doctor's office or something. But in improv, sometimes you're, like, trying to be clever and not say the thing. And sometimes you just need to say something like, you're my dad.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And just because the audience needs to know you're building a thing from scratch and pretending that it's not.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And sometimes you try to, like, be a little bit too smart. So you say like, well, you know, you. You raised me well. And then they might, you know, the. The scene. If you haven't established you're my dad, they might change it to the point where they're like an animal trainer and you're an animal or something. Like, sometimes you just need to say things in a plain and simple way in improv, just to. If. Just to get the thing to make your point.

[Chris Gethard]

Well, sometimes our friend Tammy Sager will improvise with me and the Please don't destroy guys at ucb and she'll do a thing where if there's confusion about who characters are, because it's like, that's your dad, but also it's your brother by accident because of a series of things where people didn't listen. She'll come on and go, oh, well, there was a misunderstanding because Mr. Breyer actually is Mr. Breyer senior and Mr. Breyer junior because there was a mix up at the mailbox, blah, blah, blah. And it's like. And then it kind of fixes everything moving forward. And she completely took the bullet for everyone in the scene.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Chris Gethard]

Because she doesn't get a laugh off of it. She just actually fixes it. And then you can move forward.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She's listening, and then, like, taking care of the problems, putting out Fires, you know?

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah, yeah. And letting it go. Oh, I have a question, which is don't think twice. Did you feel like we got improv right? Because it's hard to get it right.

[Connor Ratliff]

I mean, there are some things in that movie. There's a thing that you wrote into my scene that was a thing that had really happened that I hadn't told you about.

[Chris Gethard]

Perfect.

[Connor Ratliff]

That I was like, that's a good sign. There's like, the improv warm up where everyone says they're saying a thing about me and they're all hurtful things. And I say, this game hurts my feelings. That had really happened to me in a. In a herald scene.

[Chris Gethard]

It's like, you're fat, you're dangerous. This game hurts my feelings. I think it's a line. I think it's in the trailer.

[Connor Ratliff]

It's. Yeah. And. And I hadn't told you that story. And then we were doing it. I'm like, did I tell Mike? I'm like, I know I hadn't. I think that it gets a lot of stuff exactly right. I think that weirdly, you know, the thing. There's such a spectrum of how improv is portrayed in non improv when you're just showing, like in a movie or TV show. And I always think that, like, SNL has done some, like, improv troupe scenes, often featuring people who have an improv background, where it's like, this isn't what any improv is. Like, it looks more like experimental, like theater in San Francisco in the 70s or something. Yeah, they'll do things and it won't quite look like improv. They'll be sort of like in black turtlenecks and being like the water is.

[Chris Gethard]

Like the wind after Don't Think Twice came out. Do you remember this? Tina Fey did a spoof of sort of Don't Think Twice on snl. And it was like, the way I could tell that they were doing it as a. As like a joke on us was that the. The main female improviser was in overalls and Gillian was in overalls. And it's like, well, that's not an improv thing. It is like our costumer just made that up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My favorite portrayal of improv in anything, I think.

[Connor Ratliff]

Well, there's a cutaway in an episode of 30 Rock, which is. It's Liz Lemon and Jenna Maroney back in their improv days. And it's them getting like a short form prompt which is like, SlingBlade and Oprah are on a date, and Sling Blade being the Billy Bob Thornton movie. And Liz Lemon starts doing a sling blade impersonation, says, I love them French fried potatoes. And then Jenna Maroney says, no, you don't, Oprah. And it's such a quick, funny version of, like, it's a denial. And it's also, like, accidentally funnier that. But my favorite version of improv is. You remember the episode of Broad City where she's dating a. Who she thinks she's dating a drummer because he's taught. She thinks he's talking about his band, and then she finds out he's in an improv troupe.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And they have this scene at. Filmed at, I think, under St. Mark's which was, like, one of the indie improv venues in New York City. And. And the improv that's done is by some of the best current improvisers at that time. And the improv they're doing is so horrible in exactly in every wrong way, even down to the fact that there's, like, one woman in the group. And they, like. There's a scene, I remember where she initiates a scene, and then a guy in the backline immediately tags her out of her own scene. And it's just like, such a. Such a nightmare of, like, oh, yeah, this really. But I think the thing that, like, don't think twice. It definitely gets, like, the complex, especially as more time has gone on, because now I'm basically like, I'm an old man in the improv world.

[Chris Gethard]

Right. You're an elder.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. And I think that story hits differently for me now than it did when you were filming it. Cause I've been doing improv, basically, for 15 years now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fifteen years as, like, a main stage performer. And so that was, like, a decade ago when we were doing that. So I was only a third way into my sort of, like, improv life.

[Connor Ratliff]

It still felt like. It felt at the time like a real compliment to be in there in that movie as, like, an example of, like, someone in the improv world. But a lot of that movie has to do with sort of, like, letting go of it and sort of, like, what do you do when you're sort of, like, starting to outgrow it and starting to, like, look at other ambitions, you know?

[Chris Gethard]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And.

[Chris Gethard]

And realizing that not everybody gets the same thing. I mean, that was the main thing for me when I wrote it. It's like, oh, that's a crazy realization when you realize, like, oh, we all came up together and it was all for one on one for all. But actually, it's like, never Goes like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And also, like, the reasons for doing it are different for everybody, that it's not for people. Like, even though in that movie you have someone who is an example of how sometimes people can go into wildly successful pursuits in show business, that's never a good reason to get into improv.

[Chris Gethard]

No, it's not.

[Connor Ratliff]

It's really like, if you're thinking, I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Want to start doing improv so that I can become a star, it's not that it hasn't happened or that it can't happen, but what a roundabout way.

[Chris Gethard]

Like, yeah, the odds are so long. Yeah, like, so long. Like, it's so hard to describe. I actually always say to people about improv. And Liz Allen came on the show and talked about coaching improv and doing improv in Chicago for years and years. I always encourage people, like, take a workshop with Liz Allen. Take a workshop with ucb. Don't think of it as a plan. Think of it as like an ex. Like a life experiment of things. What if you did a thing where you just said yes all the time?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Chris Gethard]

It's a really cool, trippy life experience. And if it trickles into other things in your life, that's a great outcome.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. But the actual experience of it is a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a creative outlet. It is an art form. But it's not. It's not a stepping.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

It's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's not a reliable stepping stone.

[Connor Ratliff]

And it also. Actual show business is a whole different world.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And. And like, to any extent, like, I'm.

[Connor Ratliff]

An example of someone who fell backward into acting and film and TV and stuff like that from doing well in improv.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I'm like an outlier in that.

[Connor Ratliff]

But I don't get the same thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Out of anything that I've booked. Any, like, film or TV thing that I've done that I got because I. It's not. It's a job. It's not. It doesn't. It doesn't hit the same parts of my brain.

[Connor Ratliff]

Even the most fun things that I've.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Done in, like, film and TV or other things professionally, I still kind of. It's a completely different world. It's sort of.

[Connor Ratliff]

It almost feels like everyone's reasons for doing it are as personal as the way you need to approach. Approach it in terms of, like, why are you doing this? If you're doing this because you think it's interesting and you enjoy it, that's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A very good reason for doing it.

[Chris Gethard]

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

Working it out is supported by Rula let's talk about therapy for a second. We talk about therapy all the time on this show. I've been in therapy for a long time. Some people in the comment section of my YouTube say too long. But I've been for 25 years. I've been in therapy. I know firsthand. Sometimes navigating mental health care can be challenging. Here's the thing about Rula. Rula helps to make that part easier. Rula works with major insurance plans. Sessions can cost as little as $15 and in some cases, $0, depending on what your benefits are. Rula isn't just a directory. They help book appointments. They stay on top of your schedule and keep track of progress so you actually can get somewhere with therapy. Every therapist on Rula's platform is licensed, vetted and chosen for their expertise. You're not rolling the dice. You're talking to legit professionals who know how to get results. Thousands of people have already used Rula to finally get the care they needed. Go to rula.compurbigs and get started today. That's R U L. Take the first step. Get connected. Take control of your mental health. Support for Working it out comes from Article. Article offers a curated range of mid century modern, coastal and Scandinavian inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with nearly any other Article product. I love this Article furniture. They have a thoughtful design approach that makes it incredibly easy to mix and match, helping you create a space that feels cohesive and as well as stylish. I feel like if you went on the Article website, you could spend hours there. I was on the site and I got this saltwater blue ottoman. It's in my living room. It's gorgeous. With Article's 30 day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. The peace of mind ensures that you can invest in your home without hesitation. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim that, visit article.comwio for working it out and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com wio for $50 off your first purchase of $1. Let me see if Gethard will pick up because I'm just on with Gethard and I had, I asked him if, if he could talk on air. Hey buddy, you're on the air with Connor Ralph.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Oh, right now? Currently.

[Chris Gethard]

Is that okay?

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Yeah, I mean I just got home. I'm sitting in My car in my driveway.

[Chris Gethard]

So Connor Ratliff, you've worked with for many years.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Oh, yeah. I was an early adopter of Conor Radliff.

[Chris Gethard]

I would say.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Now, here's. Here's a thing I want Connor to discuss.

[Connor Ratliff]

All right?

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Which is. So when we were doing my old public access show, Conor was a huge part of it and many people's favorite part of it legitimately. And he did a bit where he ran for president, and his platform was, you have to be 35 to be president. And I'm 35, so I can be president. And Mike, when I tell you that he only, like, I would be like, why don't you come play a character this week? He's like, no, I do the president thing. And he would only appear on the show as a presidential candidate who would say with no jokes and the utmost sincerity, that he really thought he was going to win and he was going for it. And, like, these heartfelt monologues about his. But this went on for, I believe, two years that he would only appear on the show. Yeah, Mike, we once did a show at south by Southwest, and one of the years we had a guy, you know, our show was crazy. We had one of our characters oil wrestling audience members in a baby pool.

[Chris Gethard]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

And this somehow built to a point where someone challenged Conor, who was in a suit because he was running for president. And Mike, when he stripped down. This is real. When he stripped down an oil vessel and audience member, he was inexplicably already wearing underwear with his own face on them, advertising that he was running for president. It was only that he revealed that he always wore presidential underwear with his own face on them every time. It was just a thing. His character. It was so bizarre.

[Chris Gethard]

Chris, we're gonna. We're not even gonna be able to use the rest of the interview. We're not gonna be able to use the rest of the interview with Connor because it hurts his legitimacy so much to air this story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it adds to my legitimacy.

[Chris Gethard]

All right, gu, we gotta run, but I love you, I miss you. And come back on the podcast again.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Say the word now.

[Connor Ratliff]

Call me there.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

All right.

[Chris Gethard]

All right.

[Chris Gethard (phone call)]

Bye.

[Chris Gethard]

See you, buddy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

See, and I would say that the reveal that I was secretly wearing campaign themed underwear. They were boxer briefs that had my face and my presidential slogan on the underwear. This is not a personal revelation. This is about process, which is.

[Connor Ratliff]

This is what this conversation is all about. Process.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So the cows come home.

[Chris Gethard]

Okay, this is another question. This is from Abby Bernasco. What's something you hate that other people do during improv scenes.

[Connor Ratliff]

I mean, this is going to be so I. I never like it when someone says my name in an improv scene. Like, when I'm doing a scene, then someone, like, uses my name.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

Because for me, the whole point of it is make. Unless there's a real.

[Chris Gethard]

Someone says, Connor.

[Connor Ratliff]

Someone says, Connor. Or someone says, like, well, this is Connor Ratliff.

[Chris Gethard]

And you'll do it where it's like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'm always just like, that's not who I was being.

[Connor Ratliff]

And I only like it if they're. Every now and then, Shannon o' Neal has done it, and it's always like a burn when she does. She's the one of the few people who does it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's actually, like, it works.

[Connor Ratliff]

Because I will be playing like, a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Degenerate who's on trial and is gonna.

[Connor Ratliff]

Get the death penalty. And then she'll label me Connor Ratliff, and she'll wait until it's, like, the most. Like, I'm painted into a corner where, like, this will really get me. I tend to not. One of the things I really don't like, I guess, is courtroom scenes that end up becoming about how we have not properly staged a courtroom scene.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah, I don't like it.

[Connor Ratliff]

It's never fun. Yeah, it's probably fun the first time you ever discover it, but it's not.

[Chris Gethard]

It's not right.

[Connor Ratliff]

There's a move that people do that I've never seen people do correctly, which is. It's an early thing people do where you'll be improvising a scene. It's like a nervous, easy thing to say when you don't really know how to do it yet. Where we'll be saying something like, oh, yeah, we're gonna go. I've got some food and a picnic basket, and we're. We're gonna go have a picnic today. And then the next person will say, like, yeah, it's gonna be the best picnic ever. And anytime someone says something's gonna be, like, the best thing ever as a move.

[Chris Gethard]

It's not in the. It's not in the world of real.

[Connor Ratliff]

I only like it if we then actually were to commit to that and say, like, yeah, that's actually the goal today is in the history of outdoor dining among friends or colleagues, we're going.

[Chris Gethard]

To be acknowledged by Good Housekeeping magazine.

[Connor Ratliff]

This is going to be something that is going, like, to do one where it's actually about. The goal is actually to make history today. And here are the achievements. Here are our goals for the day. Like, to really make it about that, as opposed to lines like that that are just sort of like filler lines that don't mean anything. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. One of the best pieces of advice someone gave me about improv once is, to your point, about courtroom scenes. If you're not familiar with the thing you're doing, do it the best that you possibly can.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

It'll inevitably be wrong, but most likely that'll be an interesting part of the scene.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The way that I tend to do improv, I'm occasionally trying to be funny, but funny is not really my goal. I'm almost always trying to do the.

[Connor Ratliff]

Most legitimately dramatic version of whatever's happening.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's usually my path toward it.

[Connor Ratliff]

Being funny, because it always fails, no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Matter how stupid the idea is.

[Connor Ratliff]

I kind of want to do the Harper Lee version of that. I want to do the Eugene o' Neill.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Absolute.

[Connor Ratliff]

Like, we're gonna win a Tony Award for best play for this scene. And then inevitably, three lines in just the act of trying to do something that, well, fails spectacularly.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. What's a flub that you still think about?

[Connor Ratliff]

A flub? A flub in, like, an improv scene. Like a mistake.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. Well, it's. It's funny because it's. Jackie Marchie asked that, but it's like a little bit. A little bit of a oxymoron, because I. You know, they. There's a. There's a phrase people say, but improv. There's no mistakes, which I think is true.

[Connor Ratliff]

I mean, there are mistakes, but. But in the sense that those mistakes are almost. They're all opportunities.

[Chris Gethard]

They're all opportunities. Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

You can misspeak. And it often is the best thing that could happen to a scene. I'm trying to think of that.

[Chris Gethard]

That's why I love improv just as a philosop, like, as a thing to study. Because, like, I think that's true of almost everything.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yes. There's so many things in art and in life where the thing that goes wrong turns out to be the thing that, like, oh, if that hadn't happened, it would have just been same old, same old. It's hard to remember an example because.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It happens so often that it's just part of the thing. And you just tend to erase most improv memories.

[Connor Ratliff]

It just goes right into the recycle bin because it is. Whenever there's a big mistake, it's just fun. It's just an opportunity to have something fun happen. I can speak to, because I remember this as one of my core memories.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In learning how to do improv. I was in a class taught by Gil Ozeri. It was my improv201 teacher. And I really hadn't done anything good yet in any classes. I was figuring it out, and someone was doing a scene where.

[Connor Ratliff]

This doesn't sound like a particularly funny idea for an improv scene, but someone was doing a scene where their child had broken a thermometer and swallowed the mercury inside. And so the guy's like, he's calling 911. He's like, oh, no. Oh, no. And I thought, well, I'll do a walk. I'll enter the scene as the 911, as the paramedic. And he's on the phone to 911. And I was thinking, oh, we'll cut forward in time and I'll be the paramedic. But I didn't know how to make that move. So I just ding dong knocked on the door thinking, I'll be the paramedic arriving. And the guy who was on the phone said, oh, hold on just a second, someone's at the door. And I thought, oh, no, I can't be the paramedic now because no time has passed or whatever. And so in the two seconds that went by, I'm thinking, what else could it be? What else is going on in the scene? And without even consciously thinking of it, he opened the door, and I said, hello, I'm selling thermometers. And it really was just. It really was just, what else is in the scene?

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's two things.

[Connor Ratliff]

There's medicine and there's a broken thermometer. And I said it. I remember Gil laughed. And I remember thinking, like, almost like a child, like, oh, yes, I've solved the one problem that is not urgent in the scene. Yeah, not the poisoned child, but the broken thermometer. And I think about that so often because it wasn't intentional, but it was like a roadmap towards, like, look how simple this can be. Like, the math of this. I mean, it's still surprising to me when I think of it, because I didn't think of it as a joke. I thought of it as, what else is there to talk about.

[Chris Gethard]

What else is there?

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah, and it was such a mathematical, like, there's that and there's this, and there's also this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'll say this.

[Chris Gethard]

Well, that's part of the reason why I always encourage people to take an improv class if they can, because I think any kind of creative. It's good for. I think it's good for writing. It's a lot of like, what about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? You know, like, I have a character in my movie right now where I go, nothing happens with this guy. What if he. This. What if he got fired? What if he fell into the lake? What if he. Blah, blah, blah. And then, like, one of those things ended up being the thing.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

And it's literally coming up with the worst idea, and then eventually in the list of the worst ideas is the best idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. And I do feel like generally in my life, my best ideas have always been jokes that I've said, not meaning them.

[Connor Ratliff]

And then I'm like, actually, we should do that.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

I'll always say something that I'll think.

[Chris Gethard]

Here'S a suggestion, here's a bad idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then I'll be like, actually, we should really do this.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

And I think it also rewires your brain just for life in a way that you open yourself up a little bit towards possibilities.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I find that conversationally, it's.

[Connor Ratliff]

It. If you learn how to do it right, it makes you a better listener in life, and you're sort of like. I mean, this isn't necessarily true of every improviser, but for me, it really changed my whole outlook on everything, including, like, having an awareness. Like, one of the things that really kind of was key to me, even the discoveries that I needed to make in order to make Dead Eyes as a podcast, was realizing that there is a separate part of you that is a creative person and an artist and a talented person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then there's the business where they.

[Connor Ratliff]

May need you or they may not, but they're making. Even if what they make is a great piece of art, it's also, to someone, it's a product. Like, you can have a hundred. You can have a great. The greatest films that have been made by a Hollywood studio are still being, like, sold. They're still. They're not just a product. They are great works of art. But there's somebody out there who's like, this isn't making money, or this is. Or, I don't see money in this. And that. That is a separate thing. Like, the thing that you're. The thing that. It really changed for me is realizing that, like, I didn't need validation as an actor or performer. The place to get it from is in this realm, not in the realm of whether or not you're right for this other thing. Someone's making that's gonna be bought and sold.

[Chris Gethard]

Well, the crazy thing for me, being an actor for years and years and then being a director and casting people is realizing that as an actor all those years, it had nothing to do with me.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

Like, whether or not you're cast, sure, you have to be. Do your best. You have to study the material. You have to be in the moment. After that, it has everything to do with what they're looking for. It doesn't have to do with you. And you might be what they're looking for.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you take it so personally.

[Chris Gethard]

So personally. And the odds are it has nothing to do with you. So it's just a numbers game.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And the thing is, no matter how.

[Connor Ratliff]

Like, I know I'm a good actor.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know I'm funny. I know I'm talented.

[Connor Ratliff]

I know I'm all these things. I also know I am not right for almost everything.

[Chris Gethard]

Almost everything.

[Connor Ratliff]

Almost everything that happens. I am not the right person.

[Chris Gethard]

99% of things that are made you and I are wrong for.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I also had a horrific discovery this week on a professional and personal level, which is I just did my show, and every now and then I'll have.

[Connor Ratliff]

A guest do it. Come and join the acting class. And so I had a surprise guest this week, which is Rachel Zegler. Came on the show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, great.

[Connor Ratliff]

And. And it's filmed, and we're gonna put it on YouTube and all this. And I was looking to try to get a keyframe for the YouTube video. And, you know, in animation, there's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's.

[Connor Ratliff]

There's like keyframes, and there's what they call in betweeners, like the. So like in a. In a. In an animated cartoon, there'll be like this pose and this pose and all the good poses. But then they need the things that go between those poses to get them. And those are the ones that are, like, less frameable. They're less good. I'm scrubbing through the hour, trying to find a frame that has me and Rachel in it where we both. Where it's both an acceptable looking photo of the two of us. And Rachel almost entirely exists in keyframes. Like, you realize the difference between a movie star.

[Chris Gethard]

I can see where this is going.

[Connor Ratliff]

And I am almost entirely in between.

[Chris Gethard]

You're a tweener.

[Connor Ratliff]

Every single.

[Chris Gethard]

You're a tweener.

[Connor Ratliff]

Every frame of me looks like I'm blinking or my mouth is hanging open or I've turned my head in a way that's not right. I'm literally going, there's 24 frames in every second. I have yet to find a frame.

[Chris Gethard]

This shatters my belief that you and Rachel Ziegler are the same person.

[Connor Ratliff]

We're here to do. If we're here to make any point.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Today, that should be it.

[Chris Gethard]

Support for Working it out comes from a Warby Parker Believe it or not, everyone on the Working it out staff wears Warby Parker glasses. We didn't plan it that way. That's just how it went down. I recently got Reading glasses and glasses, by the way, are expensive. I've shopped around. The prices on prescription glasses and sunglasses are exorbitant. But at Warby Parker, prescription glasses start at just $95. Am I reading this correctly? $95? That's for the frame and the lenses. I know you're probably thinking, what's the catch? Are $95 glasses any good? Yes, they look amazing. And how often is the least expensive option still high quality? It hardly ever happens. Our listeners get 15% off plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription lenses at warbyparker.com Ooh, my own URL. That's 15% off when you buy two pairs of glasses at W-A-R-B-Y parker.com B I R B I G s After you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them. Tell them we sent you. Working it out is supported by Helix. Hey look, it's wintertime. Why not be as cozy as possible? Helix has you covered. Literally. Comfy sheet sets and duvets. Not to mention their iconic mattresses. Helix makes award winning sleep products. That's right. Forget the Oscars. Helix is the most awarded sleep mattress brand. You can also rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Helix offers a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. 120 nights. I've been a Helix customer myself for many years, since the beginning of this podcast almost six years ago. If I could bring my Helix mattress with me on tour I would go to helixsleep.com, and you will get this is a really good deal. 27% off site wide exclusive for listeners of Mike Birbigli is working it out. That's helixsleep.com birb I G S for 27% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helixsleep.com Burbigs. There was a question from okay Judd Apatows is. Is it too late to start doing improv?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No.

[Chris Gethard]

Asking for a 58 year old friend?

[Connor Ratliff]

No, I. I started late. I mean, now it seems quaint because I was 33 when I took my first improv class. All of my peers at that point were at least a decade younger than me. And I don't think, I don't think there's any age where I wouldn't be curious to see what you would get out of it. But I don't think there. I don't. I think if someone was 90 years old and they wanted to take improv, the, the things that they. They'd have certain disadvantages, but they'd have some major advantages, one of which I think is I think the older you are at it, the more you realize there's nothing really to be frightened of. Yeah, I think that was my thing going into it early on. Even when I failed really badly at something, I always felt like it was good. That's how I learned.

[Chris Gethard]

In some ways, that's what the goal of this podcast has been through 200 episodes is like opening up the notebook a little bit and being like, you know, these aren't all great. This is all. A lot of this is in progress and like, it's iterative and it takes years. Yeah, Months, years, you know, to, to. For these things to become.

[Connor Ratliff]

And I've done, I've done in the past year, for example, I've done some of my worst improv and some of my best improv. And that's part of the process is that like, you're never, you're never more than a few seconds away from doing your best or your worst improv in any show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I don't think there's ever a point where it's too late to start.

[Chris Gethard]

This is from Malik Elisal, who's been a guest on the show. He's the star of the show, Adults.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. Which I have, I have put myself on tape for.

[Chris Gethard]

Okay, so you. It's a good back and forth.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

Malik says. Is there actually a good time to say no in improv?

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah, there's. There's the thing about saying no in improv. It's kind of a confusing thing because it's sort of like the early rule of like, don't fight in an improv scene is really just about, like, don't get bogged down in the easy back and forth. Yes. No. That sort of thing. There are times where you can say no. There are times where you can, like the yes. And is more about the reality of it. Like, the. You initiate something and then you say, no, we're not. This is actually this. But there are instances where any improv rule is true until the moment that there's a really good and interesting and fun reason to break that rule. So there are times where even the full denial of the reality of what's happening, it could be that you're not really. It's not the same as me rejecting your idea. And it's more like you're like. Like you're like in a Chris Nolan movie where you're inceptioning the movie where you're like, this. Actually, none of this is real. We're, like, tearing the fabric. There are times where you could fully do something that's like, the biggest. No, but it's more about, like, are we. Is this building to something more interesting? Is there a fun reason to do it? Right.

[Chris Gethard]

And as opposed to a casual. No. Which is just kind of like, all.

[Connor Ratliff]

Right, yeah, there are lots of times.

[Chris Gethard]

Then we have to rebuild.

[Connor Ratliff]

Like, you're not supposed to fight in improv. That's mostly like a training wheels when you're learning how to do it. Because if you. Everyone can improvise a fight. It's not that interesting to look at. But some of the best scenes, once you know how to do improv are fights.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah.

[Connor Ratliff]

But you got to do a fight that's going somewhere, and that's.

[Chris Gethard]

Yeah. Like, one way to. A simple way to look at it is like. Like saying no in a scene is like kicking someone's sandcastle.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

And like saying no for a reason is like kicking the sandcastle. And then you realize that what you're actually building is a sandcastle. A series of sandcastles around the sandcastle.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah. There's like, a buried treasure under the sandcastle that you're exposing. It really is like any of these rules, you discover there's always a good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Reason to violate them if.

[Connor Ratliff]

But it's all ultimately about collaboration and building with your scene partners.

[Chris Gethard]

There was a question from Ann Marie Wells, writer, which is, how are you not afraid to be not funny? And it tied into a thing that you and I were sending back and forth today, which is on Instagram. It was like a site that had a series of quotes. If you improvise as a comedian, you don't just quote, think faster than the audience. You physically turn off the part of the brain that feels shame.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Chris Gethard]

In a landmark study, neuroscientist Charles Lim put jazz musicians into an MRI machine to see what happens when you Switch from memorized performance to improvised creation. The results were surprising. During. During improvisation, the prefrontal cortex didn't light up. It went dark. Even though the study focused on music, this specific neural signature applies to the improvising brain in general. The DLPFC is your brain's quote, editor. Prefrontal cortex is. The prefrontal cortex is your brain's editor. It's the voice that says, don't say that. That's risky or you'll look stupid. The data shows that expert improvisers have the neurological ability to shut this region down on command.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think I might have turned mine off just generally.

[Chris Gethard]

Just full time.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah, just. I never switched it on. I mean, I. I definitely think part of that was starting a little bit late for me that I had already experienced so much failure by age 30. When I was 30, I remember specifically thinking I had failed in every single column of what I considered, like, adult life. I really felt like I had blown it. And so when I started taking improv, I remember thinking, like, what's the worst that can happen? You know? And it really was like having that. Having that feeling like nowhere to go but up.

[Chris Gethard]

The last thing we do is working it out for a cause. If you have a non profit you like to contribute to, we will contribute to them. Then we will link to them in the show notes and encourage people to contribute as well.

[Connor Ratliff]

Yeah, Pause NY Basically, if people are having problems and it looks like they're gonna maybe lose their pets, like lose ownership of their pets for either financial or like health reasons or something, they will help people out so that people can keep their pets.

[Chris Gethard]

It says pause New York. Helping NYC residents who are at risk of losing their pets due to physical and financial obstacles. That's fantastic organization. We'll contribute to them. We will link to them in the show notes. If people want to hear more of me with Connor, we are punching up your listener jokes on the bonus feed, which you can subscribe to now on Apple Podcasts. Connor Ratliff. Such an honor. I feel like we could talk for hours.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I.

[Connor Ratliff]

We absolutely could.

[Chris Gethard]

We'll do it again.

[Connor Ratliff]

I'd love to.

[Chris Gethard]

Working it out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out. Cause there's no one that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it Out, you can follow Connor Raliff on Instagram at. At Conor Ratliff. You can watch the George Lucas talk show where he plays George Lucas interviewing people completely unauthorized on YouTube. He also has a show called Connor Ratliff presents the acting class which we talked about on the show today. If you have a chance to see Connor live on stage, I could not recommend it more Highly. Check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, ikebirbiglia. There's a lot of great episodes on there. I think the Mulaney episode is. Is maybe the the most views we've ever had in a week. It has a really fun clip that went pretty wide on Instagram of that ridiculous Frank Sinatra story, which is true and not even really my story, but it. John's always tries to get me to tell that story and so that's a. That's a fun one you can watch on YouTub. Our producers of Working it out are myself along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Ben Cruz Supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks as always to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Bleachers has a new album out soon. Jack's been teasing that on his Instagram. And congratulations to Jack. He won another Grammy this year as a producer for Record of the Year for Kendrick Lamar Luther. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Oona, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy our show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. That really helps us out. 200 episodes. We did it. Thank you everyone. Maybe go over to the YouTube episode and say what you like about the episode or didn't like. This is what More commonly on YouTube people write what they didn't like. But but you could break from the trends. Say what you like about it. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell your improv scene partner. Let's say you're in a long form improv scene. Your partner says something like we should go on a train trip. You could say yes. And on that train trip, let's listen to Mike Birbiglia is working it out. It's where Mike Birbiglia talks to other comedians, writers, actors and improvisers about the creative process. Process. And they might say that's not a podcast, it's a fish and scene. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.