Bob Odenkirk: The Art of Anger in Comedy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out

Episode: Bob Odenkirk: The Art of Anger in Comedy
Date: February 16, 2026
Host: Mike Birbiglia
Guest: Bob Odenkirk

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Mike Birbiglia sits down with acclaimed comedian, writer, and actor Bob Odenkirk to unravel the complex relationship between anger and comedy, the intricacies of Odenkirk’s career—from “Mr. Show” to “Better Call Saul,” Broadway, and action stardom—and the creative process behind both crafting jokes and building characters. They share reflections on personal roots, the value of honesty, lessons from failure, and the vulnerability inherent in comedy and performance. The discussion is candid, warm, and full of humor and wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anger as Comedy’s Fuel

• Correlation between Anger and Comedy:
  • Both agree that anger is often at the core of comedy, channeling life’s frustrations into laughter.
  • Odenkirk notes using everyday annoyances to generate bits, especially with David Cross on “Mr. Show”.
  • Quote:

    “Comedy is… like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny.” — Odenkirk [00:07, 11:16]

  • Birbiglia relates to Odenkirk about inheriting anger from their fathers, turning it into creative energy.

2. Odenkirk’s Acting Journey

• Transition from Comedy to Drama and Action:
  • Odenkirk discusses overwhelming pressure moving to dramatic roles on "Better Call Saul".
  • He had to quickly learn acting in front of the camera:

    “You have to get good at acting. And you have to do it right now. And everyone's watching and they're spending a lot of money and they're going to watch it all around the world.” — Odenkirk [05:44]

  • Expresses self-doubt and learning by doing; improvises under pressure.
• Advice on Expanding One’s Career:
  • Odenkirk’s example underscores not limiting oneself to a specific lane.

    “Your career is like... don’t limit yourself.” — Birbiglia [04:17]

3. The Iconic Farley Sketch & The Importance of Performance

• Writing vs. Performance:
  • The “van down by the river” sketch is dissected as the epitome of sketch comedy, where structure is strong, but performance is king.

    “In sketch comedy, the performance is the star. Yeah, it is 70% performance, 30% writing, maybe more...” — Odenkirk [07:23]

  • Sketch was inspired by Chris Farley’s real-life improvisation and Tony Robbins’ motivational persona transformed by Odenkirk’s darkly comic twist.
• Hypocrisy as Humor:
  • The sketch’s success lies in the character's hypocrisy—telling others to do what he can't do himself.

4. Navigating Collaborative Creativity and Loneliness

• Teamwork in Comedy vs. Lonesomeness in Stand-up:
  • Odenkirk values collaborative environments (like “Mr. Show”) but discusses the isolation of acting and creating, especially in new genres.

    “I don’t think Mr. Show... felt like a team effort still. And I like that. It’s interesting. Like when you’re alone doing your show.” — Odenkirk [14:52]

• Birbiglia validates the lonesomeness of stand-up and the need to build a supportive creative circle.

5. Lessons from Directing and Storytelling

• Choosing the Right Story:
  • Odenkirk reflects that a director’s key job is picking stories they’re compelled to tell—not simply doing something for technical exercise.

    “First job you have as a director is picking the right story… that you understand why you should tell that story.” — Odenkirk [15:43]

• The Relentless Effort Behind Movies:
  • It takes years, and filmmakers should only pursue stories they feel they “have to make”.

    “When it comes out in the world, it will be attacked. And you want to feel like it was worth it. I had to try.” — Odenkirk [22:29]

6. Vulnerability, Heroism, and Genre-Bending Roles

• Action Movie Learnings:
  • Odenkirk brings unexpected vulnerability to action roles but learned audiences want a balance—they need a hero, not just relatability or weakness.

    “You can be too vulnerable. They still want a hero.” — Odenkirk [19:47]

  • He’s learned to modulate this on screen, sometimes reshooting scenes for the right balance.

7. The Value of Honest Candor

• On-Stage, On-Screen, and In Life:
  • Odenkirk recounts the infamous “naked improv” sketch as a testament to his performer’s disinhibition. Only felt embarrassment after, not during, due to “some kind of disassociation.”
  • Shares a story about being blunt in real life, e.g., telling a fan at a party, “I’m talking to Bob Zamuda… I can’t talk to you, but good luck.”

    “I do think that all I know how to do is sometimes just being simply honest is... the very best thing you can ever do.” — Odenkirk [31:33]

8. Stories from Life: Home Invasions and Protective Instincts

• Odenkirk recounts two personal home invasions and links the intensity of protecting his family to his work in action films.

  “You let me have a few minutes with that first guy… I would throw anything I could at him.” — Odenkirk [41:08]

9. Honoring Failure and Creative Process

• Desire to Talk About Failure:
  • Odenkirk's memoir focused on failures and the pain/regret of projects that didn’t work, or were passed over.

    “I had a great desire to talk as much as possible about failure. But... didn't share all the failure.” — Odenkirk [24:20]

• Workshopping Material:
  • Both emphasize the benefits of reading work aloud with peers, workshopping ideas, and the evolution of confidence and collaboration in creative work.

10. The Realities of Fame and Authenticity

• PR & Red Carpets:
  • Odenkirk feels inauthentic doing most interviews outside genuine creative conversations; never imagined being a celebrity.

    “Any red carpet interview. Yeah… You're at someone else's wedding, right? And you have to be clear.” — Odenkirk [49:00]

• Advice about Fame:
  • Remember to present yourself clearly—most audiences know you only vaguely, like strangers at a table at someone else’s wedding.

11. Best Advice, Jealousy, and Purpose

• The Best Advice Odenkirk Uses:
  • A health/nutrition tip from his trainer: weight loss is mostly about eating habits, not exercise.

    “You don't lose weight by working out. It's 80% diet.” — Odenkirk [46:50]

• Who He’s Jealous Of:
  • He envies people who have young kids at home, as he felt most purposeful during fatherhood.

    “I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was being a dad… I understood my purpose.” — Odenkirk [45:23]

12. Odenkirk’s Favorite Films and Performance Praise

• On Movie-Making:
  • Only a few movies out of a hundred are classics; the process is unpredictable and difficult.
• Favorite Films and Acting:
  • Favors “Chinatown” and “American Graffiti”; calls Ricky Gervais in “The Office” some of the best acting ever.

    “It's crazy how real he feels and how much... pain is inside this absolute clown of a human.” — Odenkirk [44:29]

13. Giving Back

• Charity of Choice:
  • Odenkirk supports Food on Foot, an LA-based charity helping the unhoused find work and stability. [50:21]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

“Comedy is... like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny.” — Bob Odenkirk [00:07, 11:16]

“You have to get good at acting. And you have to do it right now. And everyone's watching...” — Odenkirk [05:44]

“In sketch comedy, the performance is the star. Yeah, it is 70% performance, 30% writing, maybe more...” — Odenkirk [07:23]

“I don't think Mr. Show... felt like a team effort still. And I like that. It's interesting. Like when you're alone doing your show.” — Odenkirk [14:52]

“First job you have as a director is picking the right story… that you understand why you should tell that story.” — Odenkirk [15:43]

“You can be too vulnerable. They still want a hero.” — Odenkirk [19:47]

“You let me have a few minutes with that first guy… I would throw anything I could at him.” — Odenkirk [41:08]

“I do think that all I know how to do is sometimes just being simply honest is... the very best thing you can ever do.” — Odenkirk [31:33]

“I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was being a dad… I understood my purpose.” — Odenkirk [45:23]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Anger and Comedy / SNL Roots — 00:00–09:00
• Performance vs. Writing: Farley’s Sketch — 07:00–10:00
• **Inheritance of Anger & Personal Stories — 10:09–14:52
• **Calling and Collaboration in Comedy — 14:52–15:43
• Directing and Story Choices — 15:43–17:14
• Pivot to Action Films/Vulnerability as a Hero — 17:14–20:47
• Iconic Naked Improv Story — 26:23-31:33
• Honesty and Candor — 31:33–33:08
• Creative Process & Collaboration — 33:20–35:54
• Home Invasion Stories / Channeling into Work — 36:39–41:38
• Movie-Making Realities & Favorite Films — 42:04–44:29
• Jealousy & Life Purpose — 44:47–46:16
• Best Advice Used — 46:24–47:03
• Authenticity and Celebrity — 47:34–50:06
• Charity: Food on Foot — 50:21–50:47

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Tone & Spirit

The episode is marked by mutual respect and camaraderie, cut with Odenkirk’s trademark candor and Birbiglia’s warm, insightful curiosity. Their conversation bounces easily between the hilarious and the heartfelt, offering both practical wisdom to comedians and creators, and thoughtful explorations of vulnerability, purpose, and process.

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Further Information

• Guest: Bob Odenkirk on Instagram @thereal.bobodenkirk
• Charity: Food on Foot LA
• Host: Mike Birbiglia (tour dates and updates at birbigs.com)

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Transcript

[A]

I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I think it is. In some ways comedy is. It's like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny.

[B]

I see it as a value. But also, Mike, I walk around, I'm like, I'm having a good day. I'm having a good. What the fuck?

[A]

What the fuck?

[B]

Motherfucker you just got, you know, whatever.

[A]

That is. The voice of the great Bob Odenkirk. It's Mike Birbiglio. This is my podcast working it out. Today we are re airing one of our favorite episodes from 2025. It's the episode with Bob Odenkirk. The response to this episode has been overwhelming. There's a clip of Bob talking about being a dad when I asked him who he's jealous of and he said people who still have young kids at home. And it was viewed by literally, and I'm not exaggerating, 35 million people on Instagram and TikTok like, and I say that I'm laughing because we've never had a. A clip like that before. It. It's not something we do. I'm not some kind of viral sensation for whatever reason. That really hit home and this episode really hit home. I feel like he talks a lot about the process of being a comedy writer, becoming a serious actor, an action star in the films Nobody and Nobody 2, of course, breaking Bad and then Better Call Saul. Great episode today. He's just got a lot of wisdom. And also he's brilliantly funny, by the way. Thanks to everyone who signed up for Working out Premium. We. We've been tentatively calling ourselves in the premium community the Berbelia Familia. That was one of the. One of the listeners suggested that. So I've been going with it Anyway, Familia. There's more bonus stuff coming your way soon. We just dropped a bonus episode with Connor Ratliff where we punched up jokes. I punched up jokes on another one with Pete Holmes. If you sign up for premium, you get no ads in any of the episodes and you get these premium episodes and we really appreciate it. Supports the show. Thanks, by the way, to everyone who has signed up for text message alert. So I've had the mailing list for years and then sometimes that goes to people's spam. So we have a new text message alert in addition to that, which is text the word Birbigs B I R B I G S to 917-444-7150 to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. I'm doing a handful of, like, comedy club small shows to work on my next hour of comedy. I also have some tour dates with John Mulaney, Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen coming up in the fall, New Hampshire and Canada, and Grand Rapids, Michigan. I'll also be on my own at the Netflix Is a joke festival May 6 at the Wilshire Ebell Theater. It's Mike Birbiglia and friends working it out. It's a bunch of new material. It's not like my new hour, but it's probably like a half hour or 45 minutes of new stuff that's in process and it's a great theater. Tickets [e-mail] this is a fun one. Today with Bob Odenkirk. We talk about his Nobody movies. He's got a new movie, Normal, coming out in April. He is, in addition to being the hottest new action movie star, he's a legendary comic, actor, writer and director. You might know him from Mr. Show. At the time we were talking, he was in Glengarry Glen Ross on Broadway. He was amazing as Shelley Levine. Of course, you might know him from Mr. Show on HBO. And of course, the dramatic actor from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. We talk about all of this today and even the time he played my brother on a CBS pilot 20 years ago that never went on air. Enjoy my chat with the great Bob Odenkirk. Between doing action movies, doing Better Call Saul, doing decades of comedy, I feel like you're exhausted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're exhausted. Well, your career is like. It's like an example. It's like a piece of advice basically, of like, don't limit yourself.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. I was riding my bike around Albuquerque on weekends, which is what I would do to de Stress from Better Call Saul, especially the first two years. And there's, I think I want to say, 300 miles of bike trails in. In Albuquerque, and I would go ride for five hours.

[A]

My gosh.

[B]

And I needed it. Man. The first two years were so stressful.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, God. I was like, what?

[A]

What about it? Specifically?

[B]

The amount of lines this just. Can I do this at all? I mean, I didn't. I took one acting class in college.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had to learn a lot. I mean, I was learning by doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With a camera in my face. And you better fucking learn. Now you have 10 seconds to learn how to act, because we're going. And the pressure was just through the roof, you know, And I knew the writing was great, but also it was challenging writing. You know, if there's a texture or value to a monologue or a conversation dial piece that's scripted, you have to find that. Yeah. You have to bring it out without being overt about it or being too loud about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have to get good at acting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have to do it right now. And everyone's watching and they're spending a lot of money and they're going to watch it all the way, all around the world. And it's, you know, see, I'm good at saying yes to things. Broadway show or an action movie. But then when you get to doing it, I'm like, what, what am I doing? What do I think I could.

[A]

You have a history of people giving you more to do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like so in. So in that case, starting with Saturday Night Live.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

So Saturday Live, you know, which I.

[B]

Didn'T really deliver on. And I talk about it in my book, about I was finally good. I mean, Lauren might look at my journey and say, well, that's just normal. Two years. You took two years to figure out how the fucking show works. And in the third year, you were helpful. That's fine.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then I leave, which is not actually what you're supposed to do if you. I really feel like that's where I owe him money.

[A]

Yeah. But then they did your sketch with Farley after you left. You say this in your book. They did it verbatim, which is literally what, as comedians, you constantly hear people go, they stole my sketch. They didn't.

[B]

Oh, they gave me credit.

[A]

Oh, they did give me credit.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, Even though I'd left the show, my name's on. They paid me. They gave me credit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But that sketch, I mean, living in a van down by the river when I was growing up, I would say, is the north star of sketch comedy. It is a perfect comedy sketch. It is.

[B]

Well, what it is that's so good is it's got good structure to it, but it's. It's especially one reason I think maybe you like it is comedy. Sketch writers especially want the writing to matter. They want the writing to be the star. But the truth is, in sketch comedy, the performance is the star. Yeah, it is 70% performance, 30% writing, maybe more performance, maybe 80%. It just is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what that field is, the quality of that field.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's sort of a. You could say maybe a 50. 50 sketch. Maybe it's 60 performance 40 writing. Cause the writing is structurally kind of perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I got lucky, but it's closer to an equal app. Apportionment. But. And then the other thing about it is you could do it as a. I could do that sketch as the motivational sketch, granted, be pretty funny and my natural rage would be on display and fun. But no one could beat Chris. I mean, there's no one who could do it better than Chris. I mean, it was a character that he was kind of doing this coach character.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is why I went home and wrote it. After we had done an improvisation where we were doing an anti drug speech. It was improvised to a high school group. And he did his coach and Matt Foley. I don't know if he used the name or not, but that is a name he came up with. Yeah, but he did that. Everything, you know, the swagger and stuff.

[A]

Well, it seems like.

[B]

And then I took it and I just. It really was based on kind of Tony Robbins.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

Which was very popular at the time. And I think Tony's story, too, is that he was like a fat kid when he was young or something. Like, I used to be this.

[A]

I think that's right. Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, what about a guy who's like, I'm still this. You don't want to be me. You don't want to be me right now.

[A]

It's so. I think the reason why it works. You tell me what else is working. But it's like, it works because it's simple and it's hypocrisy. Yeah. It's a character who's like, you need to do this thing, but I can't do it, but you should do it.

[B]

Yeah. And also he's so in love with himself and his performance. He knows he's a good presenter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, look at what we have here. Bill Shakespeare, you know, he's like, really loving himself. So he's happy. He's happily just putting himself down. And. And because it's Chris Farley. Come on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's the best. Yeah. I always thought there was a movie in that, but of course a sad movie, you know, about a guy who really lives in a van down by the river and he's thrice divorced and he's angry.

[A]

And that's actually one of the things that you and I have in common. When you came to my show at the Beacon, we talked about it afterwards. Our dads both had, like, anger stuff.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like if my dad taught me two things, he didn't mean to teach it to me. He gave to me genetically the ability to go from zero to 80 and, you know, a second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of anger, which I do in Glengarry.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

And my dad was like that. And so I feel like I just genetically got that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he taught me how to swing a golf club.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

And I don't play golf much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if I do and I play, let's say I. If I'm gonna play, I hit a range for three or three days beforehand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And within three days, I've got a decent swing.

[A]

Yeah. I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think. I think that you see a lot of people like you and I and many others who. Who had some angry dads, because I think it is, in some ways, comedy is. It's like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny.

[B]

Yeah. Well, a lot of times, one of the funnest things, David Cross and I, when we would do Mr. Show, it's amazing how often in the morning we would do our, you know, generating ideas, just sitting there, oftentimes with the newspaper out. But it would. The sentence would start with, you know, it pissed me off.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it's some stupid little thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, person in front of me. I was trying to get fucking coffee this morning, and this fucking person couldn't figure out, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How to make change for, like. And you're like. It just turns into a comedy bit, you know? I feel that's true of a lot of Larry David stuff, you know?

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[B]

It's the. It's. And that part of the fun is the degree of anger at the small thing. It's. It's not an important thing that you're that angry about. Right. You're so angry.

[A]

Right. But that's something set.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. It's the thing that your dad had of going from 0 to 80 on something that can be tiny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is hilarious.

[B]

And I still have it. And I don't consider it a good thing in real life. And you know what bums me out about it the most is what's good about it is it's good in acting. It's kind of like a lack of barriers, emotional barriers, an ability to fly between feelings, which is.

[A]

It's crucial.

[B]

I see it as a value. But also, Mike, I walk around, I'm. I'm. I'm like, I'm having a good day. I'm Having a. I'm having a good.

[A]

What the fuck?

[B]

What the fuck? Motherfucker. You just got, you know, whatever, some little thing. I'm like, really? You just did that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is wrong with you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your life couldn't be better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you are having a great day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this small thing happened. It's not a plus. So I want to. I really need to take a chapter here now and work on myself. Because part of it too is that I got into this avenue of acting and these action films were. I felt a lot of pressure there, Mike, because I'm working in an area I didn't start in. And I've had to learn in the last 10 years, try to learn quickly, try to pay attention to the people around me and understand what matters in this world. But also, it was almost by accident, like, well, slow down. You didn't choose this. I think I gotta get back to maybe some comedy and something that I think I've felt very alone in this pursuit. And of course you have a team around, you have other writers, you have producers and stuff. But I don't think Mr. Show, even though I had a great deal of power there, felt like a team effort still. And I like that. Yeah. It's interesting. Like when you're alone doing your show. Yeah.

[A]

It's true. Yeah. I have a director and team and producers and my brother and my wife. But it is lonesome. Being a stand up is lonesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a lot of times you're out there in Terre Haute, Indiana, just going, okay, it's just me.

[B]

Hence the podcast.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, exactly. But you've worked with. I mean, you do these action films. You Better Call Saul and even like Greta Gerwig's movie, Steven Spielberg's movie. I mean, you're working with huge directors. Do you feel like when you're working with someone like Greta or Spielberg, are you learning as a director because you are a director? Are you in your director brain thinking, oh, I could use. I could do that?

[B]

I think the one thing I learned from directing three films is the first job you have as a director is picking the right story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the story that you don't just go, oh, that would be fun. But that you understand why you should tell that story. And I don't think I really did that particularly well. I think Melvin Goes to Dinner was the first film I made, a very low budget film, and based on a Play is the best film that I made. And it's cause nobody was asking me to make it as a Movie. I wasn't getting paid any money to make it as a movie. I just could see I had a vision for how to put that on screen.

[A]

It was oozing out of this.

[B]

And the other films were more like a task of how would you direct this? How would you make this? And I had ideas, but they weren't the best. They weren't great. They didn't deliver a great film. And so that's your first job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I imagine I might one day again have that feeling about a story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I haven't yet. I haven't yet. Certainly not the action films that I've made. I haven't said I should direct.

[A]

I should direct this.

[B]

Yeah. No, and the opposite. I've said you get somebody who knows this stuff. And I've certainly worked hard on the writing and structure of the story. But even there, I back off. Especially with nobody. I mean, I sort of, to some extent, with the action films, I sort of say I'm here to work on it until we get to page 50.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And once we get to page 50 and the big action is going, you tell me where to stand. Because until once that starts, I don't know what's. You get into a magical, mythical world of violence and. Well, I don't have any bearings, and I can't tell you.

[A]

Have you gotten advice from like a Keanu Reeves or a Tom Cruise about how to do action films, how to be an action star?

[B]

No, it's all learning on my own. And the one thing that's the greatest challenge for me is, and I fucked up two times on screen. I don't want to tell you what.

[A]

And it's on. It's in the final cut.

[B]

But I also have fixed it a few times. So what I do that is wrong, that I do wrong is one of the things that I thought I could. When I thought about doing this, when I saw the opportunity was possible, you know, I thought a lot about, what can I bring to this genre?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I really am not super handsome, super young, or super muscular. So I'm really a guy you don't expect to be the hero and to win the fight. So one thing I can do is bring a vulnerability and an honest presence. A surprise when I kick into some gear. Cause you really don't expect it. No matter. You can put the rock. You can put glasses on him and a tie, and you still go, he's gonna kick somebody's ass.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Say he's an accountant. You're just like, finish the book. So you can kick the ass.

[A]

Like. Yeah. It's the adage about the gun. Once there's a gun on stage, the gun's gonna go off during the play, the rock is gonna kick someone from.

[B]

The first, you know, shot.

[A]

That's the gun.

[B]

And I'm not.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I thought I could bring a vulnerability. Well, that vulnerability. And I wanted to play pain, like, obviously not real pain, but I wanted to at least play, you know, ah, fuck, you know, that hurt and holding stuff and limping and kind of building it as the fight goes. I'm getting flexible. Yeah. So I thought I could play that. But I've discovered, using some sensitivity and instinct, that you can be too vulnerable. They still want a hero.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so.

[A]

Right. The audience wants a hero.

[B]

Yeah. And if you're too weak.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a point, I think, where you're watching that person, you go, like, I can't be on his side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's. I think he's gonna get killed or he's feeling too much pain. And I think I've taken it too far at times. Yeah. And I did. I'm proud of myself in Nobody too. There was a scene towards the end and I. And I shot it. And we shot it and it was cold and it was an all night shoot. And we got the shot. Okay, we got it. And I was like, wait, let me watch it back. I watched it back. I said, I gotta do it again. Yeah, I gotta do it again. Wow. Because I was just being too vulnerable, too hurt, too in pain too. And I'm like, I can't. I can't. I can't keep cheering for that guy. Almost.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

And. And so we did it again. And I said, and only use that take. Only use that take. Do not touch the other takes.

[A]

Anyway, we played brothers on a TV pilot that didn't go to air.

[B]

Yeah. Good one.

[A]

Pretty good, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was like in 2008. And we should play brothers again, I think. So we got to figure out a movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it makes sense that we have a story. You have a story?

[B]

I totally do.

[A]

Are you serious? A brother story?

[B]

Well, a brother's in it and it's important. Oh, yeah. And are you.

[A]

Did you write it yet?

[B]

I'm working on it. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's a. It's like the opposite of everything I've been doing.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

It's like a. Like, well, Nicole Hollis center and I were talking about. Oh, I love Nicole type.

[A]

Oh, I love Nicole Some. One of my favorite filmmakers. Yeah.

[B]

So I continued to develop it. Nicole, if you're watching. And I'm gonna keep trying to get that to happen, but it's. It would be great.

[A]

Oh, I would love that. Well, it's funny because you're saying this thing that rings true to me so much, which is about movies, which is. Yeah. It has to be a story that you have to make.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It has to be right. And I feel like you learn that you can learn that the hard way. Yeah. Because you. Movies, people don't realize this takes you years to write a movie. At least a year to write a movie. It takes you a year to shoot a movie, basically a year to edit. And by the time it gets out, it's like at least three to five years that you've spent on one story.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that better be a good story.

[B]

And when it comes out in the world, it will be attacked. And you want to feel like it was worth it. I had to try. I couldn't not try to write and make that movie. And whether you think you pulled it off and all the critics are wrong, or you think, I'm sorry, the critics are right, I just didn't finish this thing. I didn't get it. You still want to feel like, I did everything I could and I wanted to tell that story. Cause when you feel like, I didn't need to, I didn't want to fully. I wasn't all there, and it didn't work.

[A]

That's pain.

[B]

Fucking worst.

[A]

That's pain.

[B]

And you're saying, the critics are right, and I didn't try as hard as I could have.

[A]

Awful.

[B]

That's the fucking worst.

[A]

It's the worst.

[B]

First you want to call every critic and go, you're right. What you want to be able to say is, you're right. But you, man, I had to do that.

[A]

I had to do that.

[B]

I stand up for myself.

[A]

What's funny? Like. And I just saw you in Glengarry Glen Ross, and you're brilliant in it. Your character is an amazing David Mamet character who has high highs and low lows and high highs from sentence from.

[B]

One line to the next.

[A]

But. But what's funny about it is seeing within a week of itself, seeing you in Glengarry Glen Ross, reading your book. Your book is a lot of that. Your book is, you're up, you're down, you're up. You're a big star. You have nothing. You're frustrated. Do you feel like you drew on that in the performance?

[B]

Oh, for sure. For sure. I do draw on all the ups and downs. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I will say in my book, my. I had a great desire to talk as much as possible about failure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think I did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the truth is I didn't share all the failure.

[A]

Right. There's more.

[B]

There's more that didn't make it into the book because it was too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was. It also honest. Let's face it, it's hard to talk about it. A TV show that you maybe spent eight months on that you made or didn't make. Made the pilot. Rewrote the pilot four times and nobody's ever seen it. And you can't read it anywhere.

[A]

Yeah. That's.

[B]

It's hard to share that with an audience and go like, oh, it was good here and it was bad there. And like, I don't know. I can't read it. I can't see it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just gotta believe you that this is. What. How do I know any of that is true?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, But I mean, I wrote pilots that got passed on. I wrote and made pilots that I went, oh, fuck, that's. It's. I didn't figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I wrote pilots that I thought, this is really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I had one network executive once call me and go, this is the best pilot I've ever read.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're passing on it.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

And.

[A]

I've ever read him passing on.

[B]

And I knew he was right. I knew that it was solid.

[A]

It's just a fickle business like it, I think.

[B]

Yeah. And then the. Why they pick one show over another can be reasons that seem empty and stupid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But maybe pan out. Or they have a whole different job than you. Your job is to think about what you care about and a point of view. You have on it something worth sharing with the world and then pursue it. And then their job is to decide what to show people. I don't know.

[A]

I met you and you wouldn't remember this when you did the naked improv sketch at Radio City. I was at that show.

[B]

So crazy.

[A]

It was unbelievable.

[B]

It's such a thin premise. We did it probably seven years earlier, and we did it at our first time we ever did anything together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Me and David. Which was the Montreal Comedy Festival, where he invited me to come up with him. And we just made up shit that day and did it that night somewhere. And we did that bit and we talked about if we ever did a big charity event, this would be a bit to do. And we did it one more time, I don't remember where. And then we got invited to do Comic Relief 8. And we're like, well, we're doing that sketch.

[A]

It was on hbo. And I was in. I was in the live audience. And the premise is basically doing improv. Yeah.

[B]

Hey, everybody, we've had a good time. We had done some bit earlier. We had a good time tonight. I bet. I'm a. You know, we're actors from la. David Cross, Bob Odenkirk. I am actually. David's a teacher of improvisation and I've been taking his classes. And we're going to do a. If you. If you're up for it, we'd like to do an improv for you. And David goes, okay, we're gonna have fun. It's called Naked Phrase guests. Bob, you're gonna. I'm gonna ask the audience for a. You're gonna get. Leave the stage. I'm gonna ask the audience for a phrase, then I'm gonna tell it. Then you're gonna come back on stage and we will do a scene. And you will have to try to guess the phrase from the clues of acting the scene.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I go, that's great. That sounds like fun. I've never done that. That's great. And then he goes, okay, great. So go off stage, you know, where no one can. Where you can't hear. We'll have somebody monitor the door. And take your clothes off and come back out here. When. When you get. When you're told to come back out, I go, yeah, great, great. I go, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry.

[A]

What?

[B]

Just go. You have to go where you can't hear. So otherwise you're going to hear the phrase. So go off to that room. We have a room for you. Take your clothes off and then come back out on stage and we'll get going. And I go, okay, I'm sorry, you want me to take my clothes off? Yeah. Well, it's called Naked Phrase guess. And that's what you have to. It's part of the thing. I don't know. I don't know. I've never done this. Okay. And I go. And I take my clothes off. I did put a sock over my.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I put my hand over the sock. And then I came out in Radio City Music Hall. David had gotten a phrase. And then part of the joke is that I get the phrase pretty quickly, but he keeps going. And the audience is like. He said the phrase, you know, and at some point I'm sensing that I'm just being played with and I go, you fucking asshole. You fucking lied to me. I go, you said it. Whatever. And everyone cheers for me.

[A]

And yeah, that crowd went nuts. I thought it was like one of the most punk rock live comedy bits I'd ever seen. I couldn't believe he did it.

[B]

Stupid. And I was totally. I had no issue with it. And I could do it today and proudly show off my 62 year old body. But the truth is, the hardest part is when you're done with the sketch, as soon as the sketch is over, you're like, I'm fucking naked. What the fuck happened? And I know that's weird because you're like, you're sentient. You know, you got naked and got. But again, there's something wrong with me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which is probably one reason I have some facility as an actor and I'm able to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not until the sketch is over am I embarrassed at all. Right.

[A]

Because. Right. You say this in the book. You're like, I wouldn't, as Bob Odenkirk, get naked. But that's what the character.

[B]

He's got to get naked.

[A]

He's got to get naked.

[B]

Look, when I watch myself in editing bays, I've never said cut me or cut me back or that I say that guy.

[A]

That guy.

[B]

That guy's enough of that guy. Yeah, I'm talking about me. But I don't say. I just don't think of it that way.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. It's a little fucked up because it's.

[A]

Certain type of disassociation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. So I met you at the party after Comic Relief that night. I came up to you. Oh, my God. I'm a college improviser and I love that sketch. It was amazing. And you were talking to Bob Zamuda, who is Andy Kaufman's comedy partner. Yeah, legendary Bob Zamuda. And it was really funny. I'll always remember this. You go, listen, I'm talking to Bob Zamuda right now. I can't talk to you, but good luck. And it was like, I appreciated the candor of it. Do you feel like that's indicative of a certain type of candor you have? Cause that's so specific.

[B]

I do think that all I know how to do is sometimes just being simply honest is the just the very best thing you can ever do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In awkward moments. Yeah, I'm awkward right now. This is upsetting to me, or whatever you want to say. You know, we do the sign line, the autograph line. After the Broadway show. I don't know when this became part of Broadway. Yes, it's fucking. You have to do it.

[A]

The stage door.

[B]

You fucking have to do it.

[A]

Stage door is a big thing.

[B]

I missed one night. I got a call from the producers. Wow, I heard you're not doing that. I go, wait, I skipped one night. I thought it's not part of the job, right? No, but you know, the audience kinda. I'm like, I mean, really, you wanna put that in the contract next time? You know, But I get it. It has become a tradition.

[A]

It's a culture.

[B]

It's not cool. We just did a show for you maybe two in the day. Maybe two. And now I have to sign 80 fucking autographs. And you know, but whatever. The people are. Couldn't be nicer. And I get. You get compliments from people, but it can be weird. There can be weird moments.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, the best way, I think the best way to handle it is just say, this is a weird moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You want something from me that I don't have time to give. Yeah, I understand that. But I can't do it and just say as honestly, simply, just call it as possible, what's happening here and why. It's not. Anyway, not that you needed that explanation.

[A]

No, no. It's funny because you have a thing that I try to practice too, which is you're obsessed with like, you know, if you have a movie script, you have friends over and do a reading of it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, you kind of workshop things. I always say to people who watch this show or listen to this show. If you're a creative, try to find a few people who do the same thing and just read each other your stuff and talk about your stuff. And you know, that that's kind of always my advice. And it's like, how did you arrive at that as an idea? Yeah.

[B]

Maybe you could say it's taken a little while. I do think, you know, I had a strange misplaced confidence when I was very young doing it. But you need that too. Yeah. You need this kind of weird, like it. I can do this better than them. When you're like, no, you definitely can't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need that weird drive and certainty. Or maybe just the joy of doing it is so great that, that it gets you through.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. I'll tell you, there's. That's been a hard thing for me to navigate is how much I share the decision making with other people. I. I came out of Mr. Show. Feeling like that was fun. I'm really proud of it. But I was too much of a. I was too powerful in that room and I was too demanding of people. That My way or the Highway. Yeah, I. I'm proud of it. I think everyone is. But can I be a more collaborative person? And I would say I went and made some projects where I was too collaborative, where I said, I don't like that thing, but these two people like it, so it stays in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that can be a mistake too, because it's like. It's hard to modulate where. Right. Because I think when you're directing a movie and you're writing a movie, no matter. You gotta try to see other people's points of view, see what they're pointing to when they say, why don't you do this with that? Why doesn't this happen? See what they're pointing to? Maybe you don't use their choice of where it goes, but they're pointing to something uncertainty. A weakness, maybe. And it could be a weakness just in your presentation of, like, they're not hearing what you think is important, so they're going another way. So you have to make that clearer, you know? But you do have to own it in the end.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, as your movie proves, you do it have to go like. I just think it needs to be this way. You have to.

[A]

Right. Well, it's the difference between you having the vision and you supporting someone else's vision, I think.

[B]

Yeah. I'd say these action films have been very collaborative and. Because, again, there is a point in those films where I don't know what I'm doing. And I know that. And I say, I don't know.

[A]

Right. You're the vessel.

[B]

I don't know what's happening. I don't know what you can do here. Now we're on page 60, and I just got thrown across the room and the bad guy has sent 80 people after me. And I don't know where to start with that.

[A]

You've had, you know, in your movie, there's like a home. In the first one, there's a home invasion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You had a home invasion? Two.

[B]

Two home invasions, yeah. One was very disturbing. One was also disturbing, but a little less so.

[A]

What was the first one?

[B]

Well, I really won't tell the whole story, but I woke up. My kids were young. My son was 12, my daughter was 10. And it was like 6am And I got up. Our house was kind of split into two sides. The bedrooms over here. And Then this side of the kitchen and the living room and I walk into this area and to get the breakfast started and stuff. And all the windows are open and the door is open. And I thought, first of all the cat got out, of course, we gotta find the goddamn cat. And then also. But who did that? And then I thought, well, okay, okay, okay, okay. There was 2am There was a skunk. My wife got up, she opened all the windows, the door fell open.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she put the cat downstairs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's must be what happened, a skunk. Cuz that can happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not that it happens a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I tell my son, go downstairs, see if you can find the cat. And I'm going to go outside and see if I can find the cat under the porch area and shut all these windows. So I go out there, I'm looking, looking, looking, and my son comes up and he goes, there's. There's a man downstairs.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

And I go, okay, do you know who it is? And he goes, no. And I go, okay, we'll go to the other side of the house, shut the door, tell mom and you guys stay there. I'm gonna call the police. I call the police, I open the front door, I get out my baseball bat.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Yeah, come on.

[B]

Come on, Louisville Slugger, let's go. You know why we got those bats? So dumb, so dumb. But what the fuck else am I gonna do?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I didn't have a golf club nearby.

[A]

Then what?

[B]

Train get mates.

[A]

I'm on the edge of my seat.

[B]

Pepper spray.

[A]

Then what?

[B]

Then I yell downstairs, I go, the police are on their way. You can walk out the front door if you want. I'll let you walk out. Just come up and walk out and you'll be fine. The police are on their way.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Nothing, you know, said it again. Nothing. Of course, if the guy had come up the stairs, I'm standing there with.

[A]

A baseball.

[B]

I don't know. Police go, show up, go downstairs. Time goes by, a few minutes, comes back up, he goes, I called for backup. I mean, I think I counted 13 cops, two detectives and 11 cops with guns. Go downstairs. They eventually brought the guy up. He was. I don't, I don't want to go into the specifics, but he was not anyone I knew. And he was clearly like a methed out. Right. His eyes were going two different directions.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And. And then a few years later, not un dissimilar really, we woke up, the car was gone, My guitar Was gone. All the computers are gone and on security cameras. The guy comes in at 2am he was able to open the garage from the remote that was in the car that was parked outside. He goes in, he takes all the important stuff, puts it in my wife's car and drives away and shuts the garage door. He was a pro. That's a real pro. To take things, not to interact with anyone, not to have any problems.

[A]

Got to respect it. You got to respect that.

[B]

Yeah. No weapons on him, I'm sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Had a plan.

[B]

Had a plan.

[A]

Had a vision.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He's an artist of sorts.

[B]

And so the way those two incidents are operative to making these films is the feelings I had regarding those incidents, it just were always fresh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Years later.

[A]

Yeah. How could you ever shake that?

[B]

Years later.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm a non violent guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But honestly, you let me have a few minutes with that first guy.

[A]

Yeah. I don't want to see it.

[B]

I would throw anything I could at him.

[A]

Yeah. All your dad's anger would come out at that guy.

[B]

I don't give a shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't give a shit how high he was. I don't give a shit what his problems were.

[A]

Well, it's your baby bear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's animalistic. It's. You're protecting your family.

[B]

What's potentially good about a movie with such expression is you get to express.

[A]

It, you get to unlock it.

[B]

Yes. And I like just acknowledging that it exists.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

You're not pretending that you don't feel those things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I do feel those things.

[A]

Yeah. This is a thing that we loved that you said, which is out of a hundred movies, there's two classics. There's twelve worth seeing. There's another fifteen that are fine. The rest are just a mess. Why do you think that is? And what are your two good movies? What are two good movies?

[B]

There's too many moving parts in a movie. There's just too much that you. You have to have a degree of luck and magic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you should kill yourself when you make a movie. And you should work on every detail and should take it to the limit. And when you're in editing, here's what you should do, everything you can think of to make it work.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But it still may not work at all.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

That's just movies.

[A]

That's movies.

[B]

And it's true. And honestly, the most button down films. Obviously. Kubrick is referenced as a filmmaker who was wildly detail oriented.

[A]

Yes. Perfection.

[B]

I'm not A huge fan of his stuff.

[A]

No, it doesn't make me feel anything. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's kind of like a painting.

[A]

The closest for me is like, Full Metal Jacket, right where I'm like, it shakes me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And maybe the Shining.

[B]

Shining. Yeah. I'm glad for the fans. He's got massive fans and I respect them. They're smart. But it's kind of like, you know.

[A]

But what's your. Okay, so if it's not Kubrick, then who? It really puts you in that zone.

[B]

Movie Chinatown, I think is.

[A]

Yeah, Chinatown's amazing.

[B]

My favorite film. Truly American Graffiti.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great film. Really great. Ron Howard. I want to tell you what I think, George. Best acting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe ever, is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not Daniel Day Lewis.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's great.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

Ricky Gervais in the First Office.

[A]

Unbelievable. No argument. No argument. He's fantastic.

[B]

It's crazy how real he feels and how much. How much? There's layers in what he's doing. How much, like, pain is inside this absolute clown of a human.

[A]

He clearly tapped into something personal in himself. Yeah.

[B]

It really ranks.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. Too slow. Round. Who? Are you jealous of everybody right now?

[B]

I really am. It's crazy. I've just done this thing, but after the last five years, I feel so off balance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's the person you thought of that you didn't say specifically who? I'm jealous of who you're jealous of.

[B]

Gee, anybody who's still got little kids at home growing up.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

There's no question. I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was being a dad. I mean, that was my job. And I didn't have to ask myself, what am I doing here? What am I doing? How can I be a part of this world? How can I be meaningful today? I didn't have to ask that question because the fucking answer is, pick up everything between here and the door.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

And make sure they get to school and have a laugh with them. You know, life was. I understood my purpose.

[A]

Best answer.

[B]

And, you know, I'm surrounded by these guys who have kids, you know? Kieran Culkin.

[A]

Yeah. Bill Burns. Yeah.

[B]

And I envy them. I envy them as stressed as they are, because they have to do this job and take some away. I guess you know who you are when you leave here. You absolutely know who you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're a dad. Anyway.

[A]

No, I love that. What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?

[B]

Oh, that I used Daniel Bernhardt told me, my trainer, in a kind of an angry way. Not that he was angry at me, but he was like. We were exercising and I was, like, talking about losing weight. Not that I want to lose weight, but it just had come across in our conversation. He goes, you don't lose weight by working out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You lose it by eating right. He's angry.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I go, what? He goes, people think you fucking lose weight by working out. It's 80% diet. And from that moment on, I cut way back on sugar. Yeah. And it's been amazing. Yeah, amazing.

[A]

I did not think that was going to be the answer.

[B]

Why? What did you think it would be? Because something about writing or something, or being alive. I mean, one of the most pedigreed.

[A]

Comedy writers of the last century. I'm like, what's the best piece of advice someone's giving you is like, you gotta cut sugar, you gotta cut carbs. You just gotta.

[B]

Yeah. Arguably, I've been the most. The. The biggest gym rat of the last six years.

[A]

Can you remember a moment in your life where you were kind of an inauthentic version of yourself?

[B]

Oh, a lot of times, yeah. Pretty much any interview I do.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Well.

[A]

But this feels pretty real on the red carpet. On the red carpet, yeah.

[B]

Not here.

[A]

This feels pretty much.

[B]

But any red carpet interview. Yeah, any red carpet interview. Yeah. Look, look, look. It's a thing I. Did you ever think you'd be a celebrity?

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Yeah, I thought he'd be a writer.

[A]

Yeah. I thought it'd be a writer. Yeah.

[B]

And I understood that PR was part of that at some point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the amount of PR that I've done or asked to do, I mean, of course it appeals to your ego. People want to. What do you think? What do you do? Where'd you come from? And that's pretty great. It's pretty nice. Special feeling. But I never trained for it, planned for it, thought much about it, and at some point, I realized what you have to do is you have to remember that you are sitting at a wedding table and it's not your wedding, and the uncle of the person getting married is sitting next to you. And the neighbor. And a young person who's around your. Younger than you. Nephew.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you don't know them, and they don't know you. They don't really know what you do. And yeah, you. They are always. That's who you're talking to when you're on a talk show, right. On a red carpet, you're at Someone else's wedding. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have to be clear.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And when people go, you're Better Call Saul, you have to go, yes. I play that character. My name is Bob Odenkirk and I'm an actor and I was on a show called Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. And you may think you sound like an ass, but you're not because there's a bunch of people watching who are going, oh, I never knew that. That's Breaking Bad. I've heard of that show. And we all think we can just be ourselves and chat and make comments and be calm and casual. You can't. You have to be on your presenting. And these are kind strangers who have somehow, through YouTube or the TV that was just on being forced to listen to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't know who you are. Yes.

[A]

The, the final thing we do is working it out for a cause. Is there an organization that you like to support? And we will contribute to them and then link to them in the show notes.

[B]

Oh, great. Food on Foot is an amazing organization in LA that I help out and they really have a program that helps people who are unhoused find work and housing.

[A]

That's fantastic.

[B]

It's a long term thing. Yeah. Work with people over the course of a long period of time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is wonderful. And they've done amazing work.

[A]

We'll. We'll contribute to Food on Foot. We'll link in the show notes. And Bob Odenkirk, such an absolute honor.

[B]

Thank you, Bob.

[A]

I barely have the composure.

[B]

Oh, buddy.

[A]

To speak with you because I'm in such awe of all of you.

[B]

Well, that's very nice of you.

[A]

Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no. That's going to do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Bob on Instagram at thereal. Bob Odenkirk the full video. This one, like two people looking in a mirror. Basically twins. It's on YouTube. Subscribe because we're going to be posting more and more videos. Check out brewbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Perbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Shubh Saran. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please do us a little favor. Go on Apple Podcasts, put a little review in. Say, hey, we like this one. I like this other one. Super helpful, especially if people are just finding the show and they don't know where to start. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Let's say you think someone's your friend and then you do an improv scene where they trick you into becoming naked in front of Radio City Music Hall. And after the show you hear, hey, I want to talk to you about something. I was completely naked in Radio City and it was a little embarrassing, but, you know, maybe we could talk out our process together and we could learn a few things by listening to this podcast. It's Mike Birbigli. He talks out process and jokes and tags and maybe the tag could be, you get naked next time. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.