← Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Q&A: Mike Answers Voicemails About Comedy Advice and Crying Babies at Shows
00:34:19
For this all-new Working It Out Q&A, Mike fields listener questions about people fainting at his shows, how to write comedy about topics that are painful to you, and balancing a day job and creative life when starting out. If your question didn’t get answered on this week’s Q&A, stay tuned for another one soon where Mike answers the rest! Got a new question? Email workingitoutpod@gmail.com with a VoiceMemo asking your question.
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- [00:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Foreign it is Mike Birbiglia, and we're back with an episode of Working It Out. We are trying a new thing today. We asked on my Instagram stories, if you don't follow me over there, it's Erbigs. And we asked for questions and audio questions. We've done some Q and A's in the past, and today we just decided to have people send the audio to workingitoutpodmail.com if you're anywhere near New York City this week. It is the finale of my show, the Good Life, I've been working on for two years. I've been on tour with it as Please Stop the Ride. And the final version is called the good life. Six nights at the Beacon Theater. March 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22. All right, let's go to the questions. This first one is from Meredith Greenstein.
- [01:12]
Meredith Greenstein
Hi, Mike. I'm a huge fan of yours and a frequent listener of Working It Out. Excited to come see you at the Beacon. My questions for you are, if you could have any historical figure on Working it out, who would it be? And what are your biggest pieces of advice for an aspiring comic?
- [01:29]
Mike Birbiglia
Okay. I think maybe the person who I'm most fascinated with from the past is Charlie Chaplin. I think that when I, Jenny and Una and I still watch a lot of Charlie Chaplin. And there's this incredible thing on, I think, Amazon prime where if you look up Charlie Chaplin, there's, like, a series of documentaries of how they made these movies. And so there's like, a lot of, like, cutting room floor footage of the chaplain movies. And it's. It's incredible. It's called Unknown Chaplain, and it's. It's honestly, no offense to the filmmakers, it's a little bit lo fi, but actually kind of like lo fi. I kind of like when things are like, it's kind of just the footage. Like, it's all this outtake footage of how he made these movies. And also because I think the thing about Chaplin is that he was very emotional. Like, the movies are very emotional. And you. You really get a sense of, like, yeah, he's wildly funny, but also, like, he's really trying to arrive at something extraordinarily human and something that captures the. What it means to be alive and. And the challenges of being alive. So anyway, that would be. That would be the. The person who I would. I would love to talk to. And then the advice for comedians starting out, I mean, I don't want to sound like a broken record with this, but I will say like, so much of it's stage time. And a lot of people, when they say that and when I say stage time, I mean, like, like, hours and hours and hours of stage time. You know, I chronicle this in my movie Sleepwalk With Me, and I've said this before, was like, these gigs I did early in my career, it's like I. I would go to college and they'd have me hosting a lip sync contest or performing in a cafeteria, and, you know, I'd be standing on top of a table in a cafeteria in the middle of Ohio or something. And, like, those gigs were so formative for me. Like, these bombing gigs where I'm just, like, not doing well even now. Like, sometimes I'll be offered gigs, and I'll kind of know deep in my heart that it's not gonna go so great, and I'll take it, because I do think there is something performing for people who aren't necessarily going to enjoy what you're doing. I think that that's a good thing. And I just think stage time is, you know, just being on stage essentially, like, so much that you no longer have any fear or trepidation about being on stage is actually when one can break. Break on through. I was at the Comedy Cellar this weekend, and I was kind of working on material, you know, that basically been doing for two years. And there's a degree to which. Because I'm coming up on. On the finale of the Good Life where I'm, like, letting go, and I'm. You know, I think the tennis analogy would be like, I'm swinging away. Like, I'm just, like. I'm just, like, you know, just. Just kind of letting it pour out of me in a way. And I actually think the laughs were bigger and my connection to the audience was deeper, and so I'm really hoping that that comes through. Actually, it was the case last. Last weekend in my shows in Burlington, Vermont, too. And. And my. Actually, my brother Joe, I sent him the audio from the show, and he was like, whatever you were doing in your. In that Burlington show, keep doing that. That was, like, relaxed as hell. And I was like, I'm working on it. So, anyway, that's my advice for starting out, is just get on stage as much as possible. And I know it's hard to do. I know it's. I know it's super hard to get stage time, but, like, I would say, take it wherever you can find it. All right, we're gonna go to the next question. This next one is from Gareth Leake.
- [05:11]
Gareth Leake
When you're working on one of your long form comedy shows like the New One or the Old man in the Pool, do you start with jokes and work your way towards a story that you want to tell, or does the story come first and you write jokes that help you tell the story?
- [05:27]
Mike Birbiglia
So, Gareth, thanks for the question. You know, what's funny is I was looking at the, the script for the Old man in the Pool the other day because it's a, we just announced it on the Colbert show, but it's Old man in the Pool is going to be released by Samuel French as a play, a solo play that people can license to perform at colleges and high schools and regional theater and that kind of thing. And yeah, when I go back to the origins of sort of how that show came to be and really all these last six shows, Sleepwalk With Me, My girlfriend's boyfriend, thank God for Jokes, the New One, the Old man in the Pool, and now the Good Life, it does start with jokes because I think, I think ultimately like anything, I think anything in the standup space, but even like plays and screenplays, like, it does start with a degree of obsession. And for me, my obsession is expressed through jokes. It's just kind of, I have just a comedy background and look, that might not be the way you express your, your obsession. Like, you know, obviously, like if you're, you know, if you're a painter or a visual artist, maybe you do pencil sketches or maybe you do charcoal or whatever your. Whatever the thing is that kind of is the, is your blurting out of, of the obsession that you have. For me, it's jokes. And then a lot of times what I'll do is I'll put jokes on stage, whether it's at the Comedy Cellar or if it's at comedy clubs early in the, early in the process. And I go to the DC Improv or I go to the Comedy Works in Denver and I just essentially like, I'll put a whole series of jokes together and, and see what. I always say that, like, so much of comedy is a Venn diagram of like the circle of what I think is funny and the circle of what the audience thinks is funny. And that that middle area where those two circles coincide is sort of where the magic is. And so I try to find that. I try to find, like, okay, well, here's what my obsession is. And then as you go along, I always find that like so much of, I think good storytelling comes down to examples. A lot of what my shows attempt to do and this happens in the process, a lot of times with my director, Seth Barish, is like, taking something that's like, a general idea and then localizing that to, like, a specific story and having that story causally lead to the next story and having that story lead to the next story and lead to the next story. And a lot of that is just kind of trial and error. But, like, it's basically, you know, I worked on Alex Edelman's show. I worked on Jacqueline Novak's show, and that was like my. Like, my overarching note for both of them. Like. Like, whenever we would talk is like, could that observation be a specific story? Cause it kind of always can be. Like, if you think about where your general observation on something came from. And honestly, that's a lot of what I'm doing with these shows is I'm taking things that I'm obsessed with, and I'm thinking about it a lot, and I'm just going, like, well, what is a single event that I could build that feeling or that joke premise around? Okay, let's do the next question.
- [08:49]
Ben
Hi, Mike. Big fan of the show and all your work. My name's Ben. I'm from New Zealand. My question is whether you can or you think there is the ability to have a balance between living a creative life but still having a normal job, or whether you'll always be a bit sad or a bit distracted by not being able to do the thing and commit wholeheartedly to it. Big fan of the work. Big fan of the podcast. We'd love to see you down this way. Signed up to the mailing list. Can't wait to see you announce a show at at least Melbourne International Comedy Festival. Thanks very much.
- [09:29]
Mike Birbiglia
In at least Melbourne. Thanks, Ben. Ben in New Zealand. Oh, man, Ben, I would love to come to New Zealand. That. That is definitely one of the places on earth that I want to visit. So I will come at some point. So the question is, can you have, like, a day job, but then also have a creative life and not feel sad that you're not giving your all to the creative life? I think so. I mean, I think, like, the Liz Gilbert episode recently, I think is phenomenal. Like, I think she does this really good job of explaining this idea that when you're writing, it's like, you're like, if you're a writer, like, that you're. That you're writing really for the act of writing, that the act of writing is the gift unto itself. So if you have enough time in your day and by enough time in Your day. It could be one hour of your day. If you have an hour in your day to spend writing, I think that that can be the end in itself, at least in my experience. I mean, like, when I was starting out in comedy, like, I was, I was super broke and I was like, I was like temping at Tempted W magazine, which is wild. I've never talked about this. I worked in W magazine and everyone, I've just had flashes of this recently. It was, I was like my 20s. Everyone was so beautiful. Like, I've never. It was like Devil Wears Prada over there. Like, everyone was like, gorgeous. I don't know. I was like, what am I doing here? I don't think they wanted me gone. But, but, yeah. And I, but I, but the point is I would go back to my, my air mattress in Queens after my day at W magazine and, and I would write, and I loved writing and I wrote jokes. And every now and then I would get on, I would be able to get on stage and, and, and do open mics and put the jokes on stage. And there was extraordinary satisfaction in that. So I do think you can have that. And I think. And will you be sad? Maybe you will be sad, but also maybe you won't be. Okay, let's go to the next question. Hey, Mike, it's Adam Kanter. If you were appointed comedy czar, what changes would you make, either structural or systemic or institutional, to the business of stand up comedy or to the entertainment industry writ large? Thank you. This question's crazy. Adam Kanter, if I was comedy czar, for who? For what country? Like, which country would have a comedy czar? Because it would be very different around the world if I were American comedy czar, let's say. I think often people are surprised at what comedy I like. Like, I generally like comedians where A, I'm laughing, that's, that's a big thing for me. And B, that I feel like the, that the comedian is attempting to have some kind of personal connection with the audience. I think, like, what's special about standup comedy? And it was special about when I started in the late 90s, and it's still special now. And arguably more special is that the whole entire art form is one person speaking to one or more people in an audience. And that's a beautiful thing. And I think in the current moment where people are so polarized by a thousand different things, like just the idea that, that there's one person speaking to a few people and that that person is like, kind of leveling with those people and being like, this is my deal, and this is the thing I'm insecure about, and this is the thing I'm embarrassed about. Like, I would just encourage all comedians, myself included, I can always take this note myself, to just lean into that side of it and, like, if, you know, if. If you feel like you're going too far, go further. If you feel like you're being too personal, be more personal. That's just the kind of comedy that I really like. And also, be funny. Don't lose sight of the fact that really the reason people show up to comedy is to laugh. You know, Like, I've gotten a bunch of emails recently, by the way, from people. Thank you so much for people who send emails about the good life. And people have written to me that they've. A handful of people have felt connected to the material in relation to, you know, their own parents struggling, health and things like that because of some of the topics I talk about in the show. And it's very meaningful to me, and I really appreciate all those notes, and I think that that's kind of what it's all about. But at the same time, I view my mandate as I have to talk about stuff that is deeply personal to me, and it's something that. That. That. That matters to me and can be really, really sad. And I have to figure out how to make it funny. That's what my job is. And if it's. If it's not funny, for me, it doesn't check that significant box. And I think that if it's. If it's just kind of a thing, that's an easy laugh. It doesn't quite check that box either. Like, if it. That you can easily make funny. But, you know, I also don't think that there should be a comedy government. So there it is. Okay, next question.
- [15:25]
Adam Kanter
So I do have a question. I was at one of your shows recently, and during a really poignant moment, there was the sound of a baby. And I was thoroughly impressed with how you were able to react without taking away from that tender moment. And I want to ask, has there ever been a crowd interruption, a baby cry or anything that you were not able to incorporate into your act, that you were not able to just let roll off what was happening and tie it into your narrative? I would love to hear that story.
- [16:16]
Mike Birbiglia
That did happen recently. It was a baby, and, man, they just kept that baby in there the whole time. And I basically, I hung a lantern on it. I kind of called it out that it was going on. And I think I said some kind of joke to the effect of, like, at the end of the show, the baby's gonna give a speech. Everyone, everyone should stick around and applaud afterwards. Just like some dumb thing. Anyway, yeah, years ago, this. That was the. That was the gone right version of it. You saw, you saw the gun. The. The Northampton version of it where I kind of kept my cool and made it fun. There was one years ago where I was in Madison, Wisconsin, and there was a baby, and I made a series of jokes about it, but it was really disruptive because it's kind of like a human cell phone in a certain way. It's just a loud, disruptive thing. And whenever you're dealing with an audience disruption like that, you want to be. You want to be two things. You want to be respectful of the person who brought the baby, but also simultaneously want to be respectful of the audience that wanted to come to a show that wouldn't have sound interruptions. So you're. And you're also. And actually, there's a third thing is you want to honor the show itself, which is to say you want it to be funny and you want to continue to tell the story and have the story have momentum. So you're kind of like, you're. You're trying to kind of satisfy, like, all different parties. And years ago, I did a show in Madison where I think it tipped a little too, like, mean spirited on my part. Like, I made so many jokes about the baby that I think the person felt bad afterwards because it was actually kind of dramatic at the time. Like, if the person, like, tweeted at me and they were so angry. And then someone wrote me an email. This is, this is from Madison 2017. I was at that show, and three times in that show, Mike had to acknowledge the loud baby crying. And everyone had paid, you know, $60 a ticket. So it's $100,000 people had spent to be there. And the third time, Mike acknowledged it, it was surreal. He brought up the house lights and the woman in the audience goes, we're making the show funny. And Mike replied, no, the show was funny, but now I can't do the act I have created over the last two years. He didn't shame her so much as have a dialogue with her and others. He was gentle, as is his nature. And he opened with. Perhaps we can talk this through and find a solution together. Yeah. So anyway, this definitely comes up. I mean, I. I don't know if this is helpful at all, but I will Say that if you're a performer, this does happen. And you do have to try to be respectful of all the parties, but one of the parties is the audience. Okay, let's go to the next question. Hi, Mike. My name's Alex Brown. I'm just curious if, during your Vatican visit, anybody was able to explain to you why you never received your sunglasses. Thanks, Hoyus. Axel, That's a really good question. I think it's the first time I've been asked that. That's a bit. A reference to a bit from a special. And I want to say 2008. What I should have said was nothing. Where I say, when I was a. I went to Catholic school when I was a kid, and they would do these fundraisers. And I actually looking up this bit because I. Yeah, they would give it. They would do fundraisers. They would hand us. We were like grade school kids. They would hand us, like a cardboard suitcase full of trinkets to sell door to door to strangers. And if we sold enough, they would give us a pair of aviator sunglasses, because that's what third graders need, sexy eyewear. So the Catholic Church was like, my knickknacks pimp. And I would carry this suitcase that was the size of my body up to a stranger's house. And I'd be like, Hello, I'm from St. Mary's School. Perhaps you would like to buy a Daffy Duck pencil sharpener or a polar bear potholder. And the people would be like, we're eating dinner right now. And I'd be like, I'll be just a minute. And then I'd barge in and, you know, and I would open up shop and be like, perhaps you'd like a desk set organizer or popcorn for a year. And they'd be like, please leave our home. And then I'd be just like stuffing the stuff back. Back in and. But it never fit in the way it had originally been placed into the suitcase. And I'm. I'm kind of scissor holding the whole thing together and sidestepping out, like, I'm so sorry, I'll be out of your home in just one minute. And. And that's why I'm so angry at the Catholic Church, because I didn't get my sunglasses. And I'm going to go back to the Vatican this year and I'm going to ask for my damn sunglasses, and they're going to be very confused. And that's what that question's about. I haven't looked at that bit in so many years. True story though. Bizarro Catholic school fundraiser when I was a kid, these weird suitcases of trinkets that we would sell to. I did not ask the Pope about that. There is a lot in the good life about that Pope visit though. That Pope visit was and I wish well to the Pope. I know the Pope is struggling, he's struggling with his health right now and so I'm hoping, you know, sending my thoughts and hoping his health improves. Support for working it out comes from Helix. I love my Helix mattress. If I could bring it on tour with me, oh man, I would love that. I don't think I could get it on a plane, but if I could I would bring it out there because man, I stay in a lot of hotels where I'm like man, I wish I had my Helix mattress with me. I and I'm talking major hotels, two and three star hotels. Even in really good hotels, you see some mattress for a week, you go, what has this been around? 25 year old mattress. It's crazy. I love my Helix mattress so much and I have never slept better than on my Helix mattress. And that's saying something because if you listen to this podcast and you know my comedy, you know I have sleep issues. So it's a high bar and my Helix mattress never lets me down. Always comfy, always cozy. Your sleep will never be better. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 27% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com br3bigs for 27% off site wide. Helixleep.com br3bigs I even got my own URL. That's good. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. With Stash, there's no more confusing, frustrating gatekeeping to keep you from investing. Stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with dependable financial strategies to help you reach your goals faster. They'll provide you with personalized advice on what to invest in based on your goals. 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- [24:26]
Jessica Stepman
Hi, Mike. I have two questions. One, I saw your original show Sleepwalk With Me on Bleecker street. And during the time you told the story of your horrific accident from sleepwalking, someone in the audience ran out into the lobby, and then we all heard a thump as if they had fainted.
- [24:47]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, no.
- [24:47]
Jessica Stepman
Do you remember this? And has this happened more than once? My second question is, what was the turning point when you realized you were really successful? Was it a feeling you had inside, or did it have to do with signing a certain deal or meeting someone you looked up to that was now suddenly a peer? Do you feel successful now?
- [25:14]
Mike Birbiglia
That was from Jessica Stepman. Thanks, Jessica. That one was very funny. And then very deep. Okay, the reason I'm laughing is not because there was a thump and then someone fell or whatever, fainted. I'm not laughing at the expense of the person who fell. But I will say that like. Like, yes, like, this kind of thing has happened to me a lot. Like, things like this have happened so many times that on a regular basis, people come up to me and say stuff like this, which is like, do you remember the show where, like, someone was carried out? And I'm always like, I don't really remember that, but it happened. Just happens a lot. Like, weirdly, like when you work in live theater, like, there's just a ton of, you know, people get hot in the theater, they pass out, or there's a medical thing. I think last year someone had a heart attack in the audience, you know, in Wisconsin at one of my shows, which is awful. I'm not laughing at it, but the person was, okay, thank God. But yeah, that kind of stuff weirdly does happen a lot, especially with the run of a show. So that show was 2008, 2009, Sleepwalk with Me in New York City. And so, yes, yes and no, I remember, but I also don't remember. And then in relation to the question of when did you feel success? I. I think. I think that that show, Sleepwalk With Me was the closest thing to what one would describe as feeling a sense of success. Because, long story short, when I started out in comedy, I was doing, like, improv and stand up. This was like, when I was 19 years old, I was, like, doing improv and stand up, and I was writing plays and writing movies and, like, My whole thing was like, I was just like, I want to write movies or plays that kind of blend my sense of humor, but also my sense of kind of story and drama into one thing. And that. And with Sleepwalk With Me at the Bleecker Street Theater, which is, by the way, we made it into a movie. It's not a comedy special, but the audio is available, like if you want everyone to listen to it, like on Spotify or Apple music. And for whatever reason, like, that version of the show, you know, was for me a big inflection point in my life, because it was like, that's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't just want to write plays or screenplays. I wanted to kind of merge it into a thing. And I've done it a lot since then. Like I did my girlfriend's boyfriend and thank God for jokes and a bunch of other ones now at the Good Life. And so in that way, like, I feel like I feel successful in the sense that, that. That I can actually do this thing that is an expression of what artistically I want to be in the world. Like, I think so often, like, what you want to do as an artist is you just want it to. You want to make a thing that you would want to see next.
- [28:17]
Josh Spiro
Hi, Mike. I'm currently writing comedy about my parents divorce. And two things keep happening. The first one is that the audience isn't completely on board because it's such a heavy topic, so I'm trying to figure out how to get them on board. And second of all, when I talk about particular characters like my mum, the wording comes off quite resentful and angry. And I'm just wondering how you navigate talking about people in your stories when you find it hard to process the emotions you feel towards them.
- [28:49]
Mike Birbiglia
So that one was from Josh. Spiro and Josh. This is a great question. This might be my favorite of the questions. So the first part of it is, how do you make something that's kind of dark into something that is funny if the audience isn't willing to come along for it? I think, you know, I've dealt with that a lot over the years. You know, a lot of the Old man in the Pool is about death. Sleepwalk with me is about jumping through a second story window and nearly dying. You know, I talk about cancer in that show, having bladder cancer. I think a lot of times what. What it comes down to is if you can come up with one joke that works to get into a dark Topic, and it's hard to do, you know? Like, I remember, like, one of my first jokes that I ever wrote about a dark topic that worked, and, like, it opened a portal into, like, a whole kind of dark area where the audience felt permission to laugh was about having bladder cancer. And I had it when I was, like, 20 years old, and I go, I bladder cancer when I was 20. But it's funny because I'm a hypochondriac. And I think the funniest thing that can happen to hypochondriac is you get cancer because it affirms every fear you've ever had. You're just like, see, I told you. Remember last week when I thought I had rickets? I was probably right about that, too. There's gonna be a lot of changes around here. That's actually my favorite part. There's gonna be a lot of changes around here. But that was, like, a portal into the audience kind of knew that I was okay laughing about my own cancer diagnosis. And they were laughing, and I was smiling, you know, and enjoying that they were laughing. And I think that a lot of that stuff is like a dance, you know, it's like. It's a tonal dance. You even see this with, like, even the movies last week at the Oscars, right? Like, you watch, like, a Nora and A Real Pain are good examples, I think, of movies where the filmmaker at a certain point is acknowledging that what they're talking about is dark. Both of those movies are really dark topics. But there's a certain acknowledgement at a certain point by the filmmaker of, like, no, no. We also see the humor of the humanity of these situations, and that in all things, there is darkness and there is humor. And I think that in different ways, those filmmakers kind of acknowledge that, and I think that it allows you to laugh from that point on. So that would be my answer to that question, which is like, figure out a joke that could work that lets the audience know that you're good with it. We're all in the future. We're all experiencing this together. And I think some acknowledgement of that can really go a long way. And then the second question about, like, talking about people who you might have, like, resentment towards or anger towards in a way that doesn't feel, you know, so angry. It's a really good question because, you know, I don't know. Like, I'm still trying to figure it out, and I'm definitely like, you know, it's a balancing act. I don't think anyone quite ever figures out how to nail that because it's so deep. If you've had challenging life experiences and challenging dynamics in your family and friends. When David Sedaris was on, he was talking about that a bit, and he always. He says this thing that I think is really interesting, which is that he tries to make the other characters who aren't him in his stories look good. Like, give them funny lines. Give them good lines. And I think that that is, like, one tactic with storytelling is. Is always think about, okay, what's a challenging thing about this person? But also, like, what's a lovely thing about this person? What's a funny thing about this person? Just as an exercise, like, think. Think about the best and worst part of that person who you're trying to characterize. Let's go to the next question.
- [33:03]
Adam Kanter
As a performer, have you struggled with.
- [33:06]
Mike Birbiglia
Jealousy in terms of opportunities or attention?
- [33:09]
Adam Kanter
How do you combat that when it's.
- [33:10]
Mike Birbiglia
So closely tied to the work you're doing? Have I dealt with jealousy? Have you seen a movie called Don't Think Twice? I made a movie years ago, and you might have seen it, you might not. Came out in 2016 with Keegan Michael Key and Gillian Jacobs and Chris Gethard and Tammy Sager and Kate Micucci, and it was called Don't Think Twice. It's about an improv group full of best friends. And then one of the characters, Keegan, Michael Key, his character, gets cast on, like, a Sirent Live type of show. It's called Weekend Live in the movie, and everyone else doesn't. It's about sort of what happens in groups of friends when people start to realize that life isn't always fair and people don't always get the same thing. And I'm really proud of. It definitely was a thing where it's not autobiographical, but it's autobiographical in terms of its themes. I definitely feel like I was attempting to understand jealous impulses that I had. And I have to say, like, that at a certain point, I was just like, this is pointless. Like, jealousy is pointless because, you know, you go through, like, going through the experience of, like, as a writer with those six characters. Like, I'm essentially trying to get inside the head and the psychology of each of the characters. And, you know, five of them are jealous of Keegan's character and. And in different ways and for different reasons. And ultimately, at the end of that movie, you kind of come to this realization of, like. Of everyone just has their own path and. And it. And it kind of has nothing to do with you. Like, What's. What happens in someone else's career just has nothing to do with you. And then the other thing that I've witnessed, and, you know, I've been in. I've been in comedy for, I don't know, 20, 27 years or something like that. Everything's so cyclical. So it's like, you see people come up and then they're huge, and then they. And then they're gone. It's just like, I don't even know where they go. They're just not in show business anymore. And then people who are, you know, you're really struggling and working the door at a club or, you know, waiting tables for years and years, but they can't get their career off the ground, all of a sudden, like, a few things go their way and they're tenacious, and then all of a sudden they're huge, you know, like, I've just witnessed so many permutations of this that it's just like. It's like. I don't know, it's like that. That the old expression is like, it's not over till it's over. So it's like even, like feeling jealousy is. Is kind of a. It's presumptuous of what the future holds. And, And. And more often than not, we're all wrong about what the future holds. Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no one. That's it for this week. Thanks, everybody, for listening. And if you want to get news about upcoming shows, sign up for the mailing list@birdbigs.com and if you want to send an audio question for the next time we're doing this, send it to workingitout pod gmail dot com. Thanks for listening, everybody.