Stephen Colbert: A Gift from the Comedy Gods

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out

Guest: Stephen Colbert

Episode: Stephen Colbert: A Gift from the Comedy Gods
Date: January 5, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode brings together two titans of comedy and storytelling—Mike Birbiglia and Stephen Colbert—for an open, deeply funny, and unexpectedly moving conversation. The pair explore the art of improvisation, the rituals of performance, the complexities of memory, the role of authenticity in comedy, and the delicate dance of connecting with an audience. Along the way, Colbert shares stories from his career, insights about vulnerability, and what truly moves him both as an artist and a human being.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Improvisation and Performance Rituals

• On Del Close and Improv Philosophy
  • Colbert reflects on his early improv mentor Del Close, noting he never succumbed to the “guru” cult:

    “Some part of myself…was like, ‘you be my daddy.’...but I never, never acted on it.” (00:00)

  • Del Close’s ethos:

    “You’re not improvising. You’re just letting the universe channel through you. If you just open up all your senses, that’s it. Your job is to open up all the stops on the organ.” (00:34)

  • Performing as channeling:

    “So it can just flow through you. And he [Del Close] would take out his little pentagram…before he performed because he said the stage was a sacred space.” (00:43)

2. Colbert on Memory, Intelligence, and Self-Perception

• Memory vs. Intelligence
  • Colbert downplays his intelligence, highlighting the difference between memory and analysis:

    “People think I’m smart, but they usually mistake intelligence for a good memory…My wife is much smarter than I am.” (07:36–08:12)

  • He discusses losing arguments with his wife:

    “I’ve never won an argument with her…she sees the zoom out more clearly. And also the grain and the granular. Everything.” (09:14–09:29)

3. Rituals and Routine Behind the Late Show

• Navigating Show Business
  • Discussing the regimented day of a talk show host and his structure at the Ed Sullivan Theater:

    “The show is a matrix that gets pressed over…the flesh of my brain. And it cuts my attention into all these little boxes. And I just have to stay upright and get to the next thing.” (11:43)

• The ‘Daddy and the Baby’ Metaphor
  • On creative decision-making and leadership:

    “It’s necessary that you be both the daddy and the baby at the same time…daddy gets to say, we’re having steak, but you have to cut up the steak so the baby doesn’t choke on it.” (13:43–14:14)

4. Connecting With an Audience: Jumper Cables & Playing Catch

• Comedy as Energy Transfer
  • Colbert and Birbiglia dig into what it means to connect with an audience:

    “So there’s like a…flow of current back and forth.” (21:53) “Jumper cables?” – “Yeah. I want to hook up the jumper cables.” (21:57–22:01)

• Authenticity vs. Confession
  • Deconstructing what it means to be 'real' with an audience:

    “Authenticity is not confession. It’s not the same thing, but it is important to signal to the audience in some way where you’re coming from.” (24:20–24:28)

5. Vulnerability, Grief, and What Makes Colbert Cry

• On Crying and Emotional Openness
  • Colbert describes his relationship with tears, father’s death, and being moved by beauty:

    “Is there a song that doesn’t make me cry?…Dead dad, you know that. Dead dad.” (31:28–31:43) “I’ve given in to the fact that I cry…it’s not because I’m sad… it tends to be something I’m talking about is so beautiful, despite how sad the world is.” (32:05–33:26) “The thing that actually makes me cry is something beautiful, not something sad…the energy has to be released some way. And for me, it’s crying.” (34:49–35:31)

6. Advice, Mentorship, and Comedy Wisdom

• Best Advice Received
  • “Check to make sure the plug is in.” (A boating metaphor for ‘do the basics first.’) (35:38–36:19)
  • “The shortest distance between two points is: learn your lines.” (36:49–37:23)

7. Perspectives on Culture: Politics, Comedy, and The News

• On Politics in Late Night
  • Colbert reflects on the shift in late night, the national conversation, and political humor:

    “Politics has become a larger part of our daily conversation than when I was younger...I think 9/11 might have changed what the national focus is.” (39:30–40:00)

  • Cable news & divisiveness:

    “Cable news has to burn the tires of the news 24 hours a day to keep the lights on...the panel show ends up being about fighting, and that conflict ends up being the thing that they're selling.” (40:00–40:57)

8. Faith, Meaning, and the Vatican Visit

• Meeting the Pope and Comedy’s Divine Role
  • On comedians being invited to meet Pope Francis:

    “It really felt like we were going to hang with the Pope…He would ask us a few polite questions. We would talk a little bit about comedy and there’d be a photograph.” (43:11–43:34)

  • The Pope’s message on laughter and God:

    “Is it okay to laugh at God? Laugh at God. Laugh at God, yeah. Not laugh with God.” (46:13–46:29)

  • Colbert on Catholicism as an oyster bank:

    “You don’t always have to eat the mud. I think you can hold out for the oyster...There are things in the church that I don't want to eat, but I don't think that means you're rejecting the faith itself.” (47:42–48:54)

9. Comedy as Communion & Community

• The Evolution of Performance
  • On shifting the Late Show for a live audience:

    “The Colbert Report was very much for the camera…Now I’m doing the show for the room, and the camera captures it…That was one strong decision I wanted to make at the beginning.” (20:16–20:55)

  • On why the room matters:

    “I love a room. I love a live theater…even in between jokes I go, ‘God, what a lucky guy I am to have this moment.’” (20:59–21:45)

  • Birbiglia insight:

    “It took me years to understand… it's actually just about connecting to the people right in front of you. And that's the whole thing.” (25:36–25:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leadership:

  “It’s necessary that you be both the daddy and the baby at the same time.” – Stephen Colbert (13:43)

• On Authenticity:

  “Authenticity is not confession.” – Stephen Colbert (24:22)

• On Emotional Vulnerability:

  “The revelation is…the thing that actually makes me cry is something beautiful, not something sad.” – Stephen Colbert (34:49)

• On the Art of Comedy:

  “We harvest laughter. We go. We plant ideas and then we get the laughter from planting that idea...” – Stephen Colbert (24:41)

• On Connection:

  “There’s a flow of current back and forth.” – Stephen Colbert (21:53)

• On Faith:

  “You don’t always have to eat the mud. I think you can hold out for the oyster.” – Stephen Colbert (47:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Del Close and improv philosophy: 00:00–00:53
• Colbert on memory/intelligence: 07:36–08:12
• 'Daddy and the baby' metaphor for hosts: 13:43–14:36
• Connecting to the audience ('jumper cables'): 21:45–22:26
• Transition from The Colbert Report to The Late Show/playing to the room: 20:00–21:45
• On emotions, grief, and being moved by beauty: 31:28–35:31
• Best advice learned (‘check the plug’): 35:38–36:19
• Why politics dominates late night: 39:30–40:57
• Meeting the Pope & comedic meaning in faith: 43:11–48:54
• Favorite knock-knock joke: 41:07

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Highlighted Causes

• World Central Kitchen (feeding people in crisis areas), recommended by Colbert (49:01)
• Radio Lollipop (entertainment for children in hospitals) (49:28)

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Overall Tone

The episode is a warm, candid, and philosophical exploration of comedy, craft, vulnerability, and meaning—full of heart, self-deprecating humor, wisdom, and camaraderie. Both Birbiglia and Colbert are generous with their insights, and the discussion flows naturally from the technical to the deeply personal.

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For Further Listening

• For more behind-the-scenes with comedians, check out episodes featuring Tig Notaro, David Sedaris, and Roy Wood Jr.

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For comedy lovers, creators, or anyone seeking meaning and connection, this episode is a rich testament to the power of craft, community, and staying open to beauty and laughter—even in the hardest of times.

Transcript

[A]

My first person I, like, studied in improv with was Del Close. And a lot of people had a guru relationship to him or some people. Not a lot, but some people did. I never did. I might not have, like, probably when I was younger, I was too emotionally distant to actually allow myself to join the cult, you know what I mean? And also too much of a skeptic to get involved in the culture. Some part of myself, the part whose father died when he was young, was like, you be my daddy. It was, I'm sure in there, but I never, never acted on it. That's a fitting aside to say. He used to say, you're not improvising. You're just letting the universe channel through you. If you just open up all your senses, that's it. Your job is to open up all the stops on the organ.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And so that you. So it can just flow through you. And he would take out his little pentagram and put it on his chest before he performed because he said the stage was a sacred space.

[B]

And it is, I mean, showstoppers, Stephen Colbert throwing showstopping pitches all day. Foreign. It's Mike Birbiglia. We are back with working it out 2026. That was the voice of the great Stephen Colbert. This is a re air of an episode from almost exactly a year ago, January 2025. We loved having Stephen in the studio. It was such a dream. I've been on his show many, many times. I've been a fan of his for so many years. The Late Show, Stephen Colbert, the Colbert Report, the Daily Show, Strangers with Candy, on and on and on and on. One of the great highlights of the year. In a week we will be back with an all new episode with Sarah Sherman from SarantLive. But today, I hope you enjoy Stephen Colbert. By the way, thanks to everyone who signed up for Working it Out Premium. We just dropped our third bonus episode. It is an episode with my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. We're doing a thing called Jokes and Poems that we do every few months at Joe's Pub in New York City. And in the episode we rolled audio and recorded the preparation for Jokes and Poems. We just thought, huh, well, we're working out in the studio. Why don't we record it and edit the best parts together? And that's what that is. You can sign up for Working it out Premium on Apple Podcasts. If you click on our podcast and then see the thing it says working out premium, you can subscribe. And then in every single episode, you get no ads. And then about once a month we put a bonus episode in the feed. We did an episode with me and Pete Holmes punching up your listener jokes. And yeah, we really appreciate it. We appreciate your support. We care deeply about this podcast you're listening to and we appreciate you supporting if you can. Thanks to everyone who has signed up for the text message alerts. As you know, I've had my email list for, God, about 25 years. I've been staying in touch via emails and secret public journal entries. In the last year we added this thing, which is just text alerts. And the reason why is that in some people's email it goes to spam. I don't even know why sometimes it goes to my spam, which is absurd because it's me. So anyway, if you want to make sure to be the absolute first to know about these club dates in Philadelphia, Palm Beach, Florida, Madison, Wisconsin, Buffalo, New York, Raleigh, North Carolina, Los Angeles and Nashville, just text the word burbigs to 917-444-7150, text for Biggs to 917-444-7100 and then you'll be the first to know about those shows. I'm really excited about the new material. It's a combination of things that didn't make it into the last special, the Good Life, for whatever reason. Usually it's like thematic reasons not not that it's not funny enough, but that it doesn't quite fit what the causality of the storytelling is. And so I've got some of that stuff again, probably 20 minutes of that stuff. I have like 30 minutes of just new, new jokes that I'm doing at the comedy seller, working out things that I'm just kind of obsessed with. And then probably like 20 minutes of of things that are like just stories I like to tell. Like I've looked through the years and like sometimes I'll do the Scrambler story. Sometimes I'll do the wrestling story from Old man in the Pool. I'd love to kind of dig through and see from my other specials through the years, which stories hold up. Some of them don't. Some of them you go, oh, that was just a moment in time. And then some of them you go, oh, that's actually kind of fun. Timeless. The Scrambler story is like that. Like I I've been doing it lately again, and it's so fun because it's so weirdly like nostalgic, both for when I recorded it in Girlfriend's Boyfriend and also just being in seventh grade reliving being in seventh grade and throwing up on the scrambler. Anyway, if you don't know that story, you don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Just take my word for it, it's a good story. Anyway, I'm going to be performing new material at those clubs. Text for bigs to 917-444-7150 if you want to be the first to know. Also, I'll be on Broadway next week in the show all out alongside Cecily Strong, Wayne Brady and Beck Bennett January 13 through 18. It's a great show written by Simon Rich with the band Lawrence. You can get tickets@allout broadway.com Love this episode with Stephen Colbert. You should know we recorded this before everything went down with the Late show where it's ending this year and all the political elements of it that is not addressed in this episode. This is all the conversation before that all went down. But let that not take away from the fact that I'm talking to one of the great comedy legends of the last 50 years, Stephen Colbert. Stephen's resume is second to none. The Late show with Stephen Colbert, the Colbert Report, the Daily Show, Strangers with Candy, on and on and on. He is just a brilliant person and I just love being able to chat with him. Enjoy my conversation with the great Stephen Colbert. Okay, so how do I interview you best? What's the best. What's the best you are being you're an expert interviewer. How would you come.

[A]

I don't know if I'm an expert interviewer, but I, I do like talk. I do like talking to people on the show sometimes. Actually, that's my favorite part of the.

[B]

Show, just talking to people.

[A]

Often it's my favorite part.

[B]

That's what I like about your show so much, is that you, it does feel like real conversations with real people.

[A]

I wanted to be, I wanted to be a talk show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think what people respond to, I mean, hopefully my what that's because what I like is that just two real people really having a conversation, that organic nature of it has got something kind of ineffable that I don't think an audience would be able to define. But you just know when we're really talking and having fun.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I don't know how to inter. I don't know how to interview me. I'm, I'm. My life's an open book, generally speaking. I don't got nothing to hide. So, you know, do your dirtiest.

[B]

You know, so much stuff is like.

[A]

You Have a good memory.

[B]

You have good memory.

[A]

I'm not that smart. People think I'm smart, but they usually mistake intelligence for a good memory.

[B]

Yeah, but you have a. You have good memory. Gonna walk you back on this one.

[A]

I have a reference level that people associate with being smart, but that's not Evie. My wife is much smarter than I am. Jon Stewart, much smarter than I am. Paul Danello, much smarter than I am. Because I think they are clearer thinkers. And I think. When I think of intelligence, I think of. Of ability to analyze a situation and then. And then have clarity in your response to it. You know, like, I think Paul's a much better at like, directing or putting together a running order or something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I have.

[B]

I have.

[A]

Again, I have this memory that seems like I'm smart. In fact, I can just memorize anything.

[B]

That's crazy, because it attracts that your background is in improv. Because I think improv is so much about just associations, quick associations, this to this, to this to this, and then next scene.

[A]

Paying attention too. Like, paying attention so that you can make those associations, you know, I don't have a lot of computing power. I have a lot of desktop memory, so I can refer to things very quickly and I can pay attention and keep a lot of stuff in my. I can memorize strings of numbers and shit like. Like that. When that. That is sort of a synecdoche for being able to keep a lot of stuff in your mind or absorb a lot of stuff when you're improvising and then spit it back out when it's fitting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, or it'll be useful or something like that. But that's not the same thing as, like, having computing power.

[B]

Oh, wow, that's interesting because I was talking.

[A]

I'm a huge fan of me. I'm like, this is not. This is not me. I'm not dumping on me when I say this. I just think that it would. I'd be deluding myself if I thought I was as smart as my wife.

[B]

That's really interesting because I've never won.

[A]

An argument with her.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Because she sees it more clearly than I do. And I have to admit, like, oh, no, you actually.

[B]

She sees the zoom out more clearly. Yeah.

[A]

And also the.

[B]

The grain and the granular.

[A]

Everything. Yeah.

[B]

Like, what's it. What's a typical argument that you'll have with your wife? What do you argue over? What's the argument that happens again and again.

[A]

It's been so long. This. We've had a Real argument.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, just planning the day would be an argument for me because I refused to.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Matter of fact, we were just doing another interview. She and I have a cookbook, and we were doing Terry Gross.

[B]

Thud.

[A]

And I mean, not to flex on you, but I just did Terry Gross. And on the way there, she wanted to do. She wanted to plan, like, what the weekend was gonna be. I'm like, mm, mm. No, I'd like to just enjoy myself in the half hour before I go on with Terry because I wanna be relaxed and happy before I go on. And nothing, nothing more tense and anxious than planning.

[B]

That's interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. Are you able to do that with your life? You host a talk show.

[A]

This, when they turn on the camera like nobody's business. I am someone who lucked into having an enormous team of people who push me in the right direction at every moment of the day.

[B]

Someone tuck you in a room half hour before to give you time to think of nothing.

[A]

Kind of. I mean, I have to shower and shave and dress, and that takes about a half an hour.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And. And I put on a little music in the shower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I listen to a little music and I shower and I take my time. Shave and everything like that. And that lets. That brings the blood. The blood pressure down a little bit from the day of writing and producing, which is a totally other level.

[B]

It's a whole other job. Exactly.

[A]

There's the writing job, there's a producing job, and then there's kind of the show business job, like dealing with the network or staff management and stuff like that, which is not a huge part of my job. But it's not no part of my job. But as our business goes, there are a lot more chaotic ways to live than what I live. Because I know where I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be at, you know, 1697 Broadway at the Ed Sullivan Theater. And I know what time I'm gonna be in there in the morning. And I know what time my first meeting is and my second meeting is. And I know what I do exactly after that and which turn I could do with my sleep. And this is what the day. The days get laid out and is packed like peanuts in a Snickers bar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't have to be organized. The show is a matrix that gets pressed over the play. D'oh. Like flesh of my brain. And it cuts my attention. It cuts my attention into all these little boxes. And I just have to stay upright and get to the next thing really.

[B]

Taking the romance out of this. You know, Mike Nichols had a thing. I'm a huge Mike Nichols fan. He had this sure thing, which is he never wanted to be an actor because he didn't want to be a baby. His whole thing was like, actors get treated like babies. They're placed here. They're placed here, the place they're a child. And that always made sense to me because I was like, yeah, that's. That. That's by design. Because if they don't have the actor in the place that they have them in. Sure. Then they're losing money by the second.

[A]

Well, you know.

[B]

You'Re the child in your whole thing.

[A]

Well, you've made me think of so many different things by first of all, quoting Mike Nichols. But one of my favorite Mike Nichols quotes was from the book Something Wonderful right away, which is the first and still one of the best books about the Compass and early Second City in Chicago improv theater is that. I believe one of the chapter titles is, if you were alive, would you laugh at this? And it was. I think he's talking to Paul shepherd, and I think it's Nichols talking to Shepard. And they watch one of the original Compass players, and they're watching this rehearsal over and over and over and over and over and over. And Nichols turns to Shepard and goes, if you were alive, would you laugh at this? And that's how it feels sometimes after you've worked on a piece of comedy for forever and ever and ever, you.

[B]

No longer stick to it.

[A]

You no longer have.

[B]

If you were alive, would you laugh at this point?

[A]

Yeah, there's no longer a spark or frisson there. It's hard to recapture that. That's why it's difficult to re. Improvise something, because you're in to what was organically special about it the first time.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

But so the second thing is you just said baby. You know, actors are babies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jon Stewart and I have had many conversations about this, and he puts it in a beautiful way. And he said, the hard thing to understand for you as the. The person who's on camera, but also for the staff and. And it can be frustrating for the people who around you is that it's necessary that you be both the daddy and the baby at the same time. Cause daddy gets to say, we're having steak, but you have to cut up the steak so the baby doesn't choke on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's a lot of the day, is that you get to make a lot of global decisions about what the direction of the show might be on any given day. And now it's everybody else's job to make sure that you, the person who has to go, has the privilege and the, you know, the opportunity to go present that and the responsibility to present whatever you guys did together today out in the world doesn't choke on the ambition of the guy who made the decision.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. That's. That is very well put.

[A]

Jon Stewart often does that. That is what I found. That's what I found. That's what I said. He's smarter than I am.

[B]

Well, that's, that's, that's kind of the truism of a lot of these companies, like, you know, Steve Jobs with Apple, for example. Like, there was a period of time where he wasn't, he wasn't there anymore. And people were like, what the hell is this company? And they have to figure out, like, who's the, you know, now it's Cook or whatever. Whoever. Tim Cook. Now it's Tim Cook. But it's like, but for a period of time, there's like, they had nobody who was that. But it's like, that's your. That you're the daddy and the baby.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Same at your show. Yeah. And if you weren't, no one would be. There's nobody. There's no one who's going to fill in for your job. You don't have a, you don't have a. Did the fill in.

[A]

I don't have a permanent guest host. No.

[B]

Yeah. You don't have a guest house.

[A]

No one did that for a long time until Kimmel started doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because he wanted to take the summers off.

[B]

I was, it's funny you should say that about Kimmel, because I, I, I sat in for Camel when he had Covid. And it is a certain type of life that you guys have. It's really packed for, like, so much of the day, and then it's wide open after that. You know, you can let it go.

[A]

On a daily basis. You can actually. Yeah, you can unplug. You kind of have to unplug because the day is so intense. There's so many decisions. And as my executive producer, Tom Purcell says, when it comes to all these decisions that you're making, like, you're making like, maybe 15 an hour that you can't go back on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he says, do not, do not reverse. Severe tire damage is, is, is the sign that over Tom's head, in other words, we made a decision. Let's live with that decision and move forward.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

We don't. You know.

[B]

Right. Reverse, tight. Don't. Don't go backwards on those spikes.

[A]

Yes. By the way, thin ice. And by thin ice, we mean at certain points in the pond, the ice is much thinner, and it would be dangerous for you to skate there.

[B]

Wait, I have a question. Do you. Did you ever meet Mike Decals?

[A]

I did. I did. I was at the Kennedy Center Honors, and it was whatever year Meryl Streep was being honored, because she was there being honored. And I had interviewed her before, and I walked by her table just to say hi, and I didn't know she was sitting next to Mike Nichols. Cause his back was to me. And she said, oh, Stephen. Oh, Mike wants to meet you.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Come on.

[A]

And he turned around and goes, oh, hello. And he started talking to me about some of the work we were doing at the Colbert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember the whole time he was talking going, remember this? Remember this? Remember this? Listen to what he's saying. Don't forget what he's saying. Hear what he's saying. You'll never hear this again. What is he saying? Enjoy this. Enjoy this. I have no memory, no idea of a single. Other than. Oh, Stephen. That's all I remember of the entire thing.

[B]

What happened to your memory? I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

That's just it. I can remember anything. You can tell me, like a phone number three years ago, and I can tell you, but I could not remember.

[B]

Because it was so meaningful to be. Because you're just a big Mike Nichols fan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do you ever meet Elaine May?

[A]

No, I've never met Elaine May. I'd like to, though.

[B]

I bet she wants to meet you.

[A]

I don't know about that. I don't never. I never assume any of that stuff. I'll tell you the. I'll tell you how bad I am at assuming anybody wants to meet me. Is that the beginning of the Colbert Report? In the first six months, I think I was on the Time 100, and I'm at the Time 100 dinner at Columbus Circle.

[B]

Top 100 people ranked in the world according to intelligence.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Just briefing listeners, ranked according to memory.

[B]

Ranked according to memory.

[A]

And so I'm there, and a woman comes over and says, I'm here with George Lucas. And I saw George across the room. I could see him. And she pointed, and I said, oh, hi. Nice to meet you. And she said, george would like to meet you. And I said, george who?

[B]

Of course, because it. You can't Even imagine.

[A]

I could not imagine that that was the George that I was looking at, was the guy who wanted to meet me. And so I went over and said hi to George again. Don't remember. Don't remember.

[B]

Do you not remember it?

[A]

I remember saying hi, but I don't remember.

[B]

This is a breaking news story. It's breaking news. You don't. You have an extraordinary memory. You blank out, essentially. Compliments and people who you admire.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you'll forget this whole interview, every word locked away.

[A]

When I got the Late show, the first person to call me was Letterman. Oh. And he called me immediately. And he. And he was a lovely conversation. And I took notes because I knew I wouldn't remember. I knew I would. I knew I'd. I knew it was so difficult for me. And I talked to Dave a bunch and, yeah. And, and he had always been very gracious to me, and we'd always had a good time. I'd been on a show 10 times, and every time was a big deal for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I always, it was very important to do a good job for him.

[B]

Oh, my God, Are you kidding me?

[A]

And so, But I, But I was taking, like, little, like, kind of like shorthand notes as we were talking. Just like, subject areas. Just like, like that. And then he was very gracious and very nice, and I hung up the phone and I, and I wrote out everything I could remember of those subjects. And then I gave it to my system. I said, would you please type this up? And then just put it in a file for me so I have it. I've never looked at it, but I have it someplace to go look at.

[B]

Do you ever feel the ghosts of the Ed Sullivan Theater? I mean, the Beatles and, you know.

[A]

No. I mean, I, I, it's an honor to be in that space, and I, I love that we've restored it to a theater. I don't know if you remember what it used to be like. You seem much more like a TV studio.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But I can understand that because comedy compression is nice to keep it, keep the space tight. Feels good for me, at least for a TV comedy. But I really wanted to change the way I did my show. The Colbert rapport was very much for the camera because that's the model that I was, Yeah, I was aping, was for the camera. And the present audience in the room got to see me do the show for the camera. Now I'm doing the show for the room, and the camera there captures it. So it's different vibe. And I wanted that to change me as a performer because I didn't really know what I was stepping into. And so I had to make. That was one strong decision I wanted to make. The beginning is that I want to play to the room. And I started off as a live improvisational, like, sketch comedian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And I love a room. I love a live theater.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I often drink in the room. I often, like in. Like, in those. If you're, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a real rolling audience in that night, you've got free time between jokes.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

You know, and I'm not just thinking about what the rhythm is for the next attack, you know, like for the next beat or especially for changing subjects. I'll take a moment and literally look around this beautiful theater I'm in with these gorgeous digital projections and stained glass built by Hammerstein in 1927, and that beautiful band over there, and my dear friends who I've worked with, some of them for almost 20 years, some of them I've known for, like, 35 years, who were there. And I just even, like, literally in between jokes, I go, God, what a lucky guy I am to have this moment. And that comes to me more, of course, when the show's going great.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then when the show's not going great or you haven't been able to hook up your jumper cables to the audience is. Which is how I think about it.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

So there's like a. There's a flow of current back and forth.

[B]

Let's hit that and hover.

[A]

Jumper cables?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wanna stay here for a second?

[B]

It's just a great metaphor, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to hook up the jumper cables.

[B]

We talk about that with jokes all the time. Here is this idea of like. Of, like, most of the time with jokes, what you have in your mind is pretty funny. It's just a matter of, like, what you're saying. Hooking up the jumper cable, that sometimes is the hard part. Yes.

[A]

Well, there has to be another way that we talk about it sometimes is that I'm the pitcher and the audience is the catcher. And I've gotta do something fairly early on in the monologue to let them know what kind of pitches I'm throwing. Wow. I've got to let them know, are these all going to be fastballs, or am I just. Or are we just playing catch? Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I mean, we're done here. We're done.

[A]

Are you a baseball man?

[B]

No, I'm just saying, like, that's exactly it. Like, I don't even have to talk about anything else. That's exactly. You're exactly right.

[A]

And sometimes. Sometimes after the show's over and it felt like I had to. I had to fight the urge to muscle the audience.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is exactly the wrong thing to do, which is to muscle the audience.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, paradoxically, somehow, when you want to tighten up and muscle the audience because you feel like you haven't made that connection, you want to kind of like drag them to the field where you want to dance. You know what I mean?

[B]

Mixing metaphors, for sure.

[A]

Exactly. But you. I mean, baseball field.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

I don't know why I'm dancing, but dancing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But where you want to play catch, you want to drag them to the. Where you want to play catch. Is that, oddly, you actually have to relax.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You actually have to get looser, and that'll allow you to be aware of what their vibrational state is.

[B]

And that's what you. You. You and I talked about this on our. On this podcast last time, which is. It took you years to get to that point like you used to be when you were in Second City Touring Company and stuff like that. You'd be so nervous.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And I would.

[A]

I would try to muscle every moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And often when I. When the show's over, Tom and I will have a. There's a postmortem for, like, a lot of the editorial level staff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's always just me and Tom Purcell, my exec, for a few minutes after everybody's left, we just sit there and go, what do you think? Whatever. We'll have that moment. And if there was that urge to muscle, we'll realize, oh, we didn't. We didn't tell them the way we were going to pitch or we didn't. We didn't set an emotional tone off the top. And I'm not. I'm not talking about, like, you know, these shows are not confessions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, authenticity is not confession.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not the same thing, but it is important to signal to the audience in some way where you're coming from.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Otherwise you're just reading jokes off a page.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And, like, might as well go out there. Like, it's like, I'm not going to play an instrument. I'm just going to read sheet music to you. It's not the same thing. Like, technically, you're doing jokes, but you're not.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

I mean, I used to say what we do for a Living is. We harvest laughter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We go. We plant ideas and then we get the laughter from planting that idea, like the setup and the joke, and then you harvest it. And that's why everybody in the building is so important to getting that harvest to market of the show. All the technical aspects of the show are so they're just as important. Or else why did we grow all this laughter?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And I think that's a little off, actually. Now I really am there to be with the audience and that it's really there for me.

[B]

Community.

[A]

Because the show can be great even if it isn't. Great's a strong word. It can be a really good show, even if it's not pound for pound, the funniest show we've done. If I really feel that connection with the audience and that's really about community, like they, they. And boy, that's such a vague word. Community. But I don't have another. I don't have a bet. Communion. We are in communion with each other.

[B]

Right. And therein lies, like, what? It took me years to understand that as a comedian. That. Oh, no, it's actually just about connecting to the people right in front of you. And that's the whole thing. And that's what everything.

[A]

And you have to add to that the craft you've put into being able to.

[B]

No, of course. You have to do the thing right. Well enough that you can make the connection.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that there's a reason even to. To be communicating. But. Or something to say. But it is similar to being a pastor, being a teacher. Anything where you're connecting a group of people. Stand up hosting a talk show. It's all of the same kind of energy. Working it out is brought to you by Helix. You feel that chill in the air. Winter is here. I love my Helix mattress even more during the winter. It's cozy, it's comfortable. I remember when I used to sleep on an air mattress many years ago in my apartment in Queens. Not exactly a comfort at the end of a cold winter day, but now that I have the Helix mattress, it's exactly where I want to be when the temperatures drop. Can't swing a whole new mattress right now. You can still have a cozy winter with a Helix mattress topper. They have so many mattress toppers to choose from. Make your old mattress feel new. Everyone on staff here at Working it out has a Helix mattress. We are never going back. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 27% off site wide. This is exclusive for Listeners of Mike Birbigli is working it out. That's helixsleep.com for 27% off sitewide. Make sure you enter our show name in the post purchase survey so they know we sent you. We appreciate it. Helixsleep.com Burbigs. When the Please Don't Destroy guys from SNL came on this podcast, we were like, let's do something. And then recently we just started doing improv at ucb. We do one day a month. Did you come improvise or you don't? Are you done with it?

[A]

I love it. I mean, I would like to improvise someplace where no one knows who I am. I don't want to have anyone's expectations of what I'm gonna do. I just wanna go improvise.

[B]

We always say that to the audience members. We come out short notice. We do like 24 hours notice. It's a hundred and something people in the room. It's a black box. And we just go like, we don't do this a lot. We don't improvise a lot. And so whatever happens tonight, if you write it on social media, just write. It was the best improv show we've ever seen. And they do like, it's a running joke.

[A]

So who's doing it?

[B]

It's me. And the Please Don't Destroy guys is Ben Marshall and John Higgins and Martin Herlihy.

[A]

Well, I've known John Higgins since he was about 4. We grew up down the like with our. Like, we grew up downstream. The Higgins like that.

[B]

You taught him Sunday school. Yeah. That's crazy.

[A]

So that's what the problem is.

[B]

You gotta come play with us though. It's. It's. We die laughing. I mean, we are breaking in every scene.

[A]

I mean, there's nothing better. Yeah, absolutely nothing better. I mean, admittedly, it's been a long time and I think there's an athleticism to it that you. You can lose your backhand.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. But. But you have been. You improvise every day.

[A]

The guests improvise, improvise. And sometimes like things come here and there, but that's more like riffing. That's not the same thing as improvising.

[B]

Is doing object work and scene work and characters.

[A]

Right? I mean, the guest is close to improvising because you're having to listen and, you know, add to and draw out from the other person. And the other person's the most important person on stage. And st. Like that all. That's all that's really key. And that Helps with that. At. At. At best. At best, the conversation has nothing to do with the card. It's just what's going on with that person. And the best ones. I've never. I never look at it, and you can't believe that the time flew the way it did. But, I mean, creating scenes like, that's a great thing. When you walk off stage and you have no idea why it was good as it was, and you don't know whose idea was what. That's the key. When you walk off into, like, that was great. Whose idea was that? Or people might ask. And we'll go, no idea.

[B]

No. And it's kind of what's beautiful about improv. It's kind of no one's idea. It's kind of taking from the universe and spitting it out.

[A]

Well, that's my first person I like, studied in improv with was Del Close. And a lot of people had a guru relationship to him. Or some people. Not a lot, but some people did. I never did. I might not have, like, deserved it, but I also don't get guru with people. You know what I mean? Like, I.

[B]

You don't take to mentors that way.

[A]

No, I. I probably. When I was younger, I was too emotionally distant to actually allow myself to join the cult. You know what I mean? And also too much of a skeptic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To get involved in the culture. Some part of myself, the part whose father died when he was young, was like, you be my daddy. It was, I'm sure, in there. But I never. Never acted on it. That's a weird aside to say, or rather a fitting aside to say. He used to say, you're not improvising. You're just letting the universe channel through you. If you just open up all your senses, that's it. Your job is to open up all the stops on the organ.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And so that you. So it can just flow through you. And he would take out his little pentagram and put it on his chest before he performed because he said the stage was a sacred space.

[B]

And it is. I mean. Showstoppers, Stephen Colbert throwing showstopping pitches all day. All right, so this is the. This is a slow round. What is. Do you have a song that makes you cry?

[A]

Is there a song that doesn't make me cry? I will, like, you know, when I was a kid, you know, Cat's Cradle, you know, Harry Chapin in an absolute second.

[B]

Yeah. Because it just. It just brings up parents, child relationship.

[A]

Dead dad, you know that. Dead dad. I remember like, it came out in 74, I think, or 75.

[B]

Yeah. My parents.

[A]

I mean, my dad. My brothers died in 1974, so there's that. But I mean, my kids, they'll go. They'll turn every. Like, oh, my God, is he crying? And all I. And here's what I find about. About crying. This is what I find about crying, is that I've given in to the fact that I cry.

[B]

Okay. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Like, I try to, like, okay, fine. And it's just like a source. Like.

[B]

Like any of the. You weren't a crying person.

[A]

No, no. I mean, kind of. Aren't you, like, taught to not do that?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You're taught, especially as a man, you're not supposed to cry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And so I was very good at, like, closing the door and, like, punching a wall instead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like I closed the door and cried. I closed the door and then also didn't cry. But at least the struggle I would do privately.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And. But what was great is having kids. And, like, if I would be talking about something that would. Getting me close, like, where I have to take a breath and, like, look into and try to think about, like, the stitch pattern on that curtain so I could think about something other than crying. You know what I mean? Like, I would. I would place my focus on something else in order to. To maintain. Absolutely. But my kids quickly figured out all those games.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

And so. Or, like, what my silence would mean. And so even, like, when they were pretty young, they would, like, crawl. Like, they would, like, come around me and go, is he going to cry?

[B]

Oh, my God, is he going to cry?

[A]

And that would just make me laugh.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

That would just make me laugh. That they would.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they would tag me like that. But I came to a realization not that long ago that the thing I'm crying about is not. It's not because I'm sad as I'm crying, because it tends to be. Something I'm talking about is so beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Despite how sad the world is. And there's that tension between the beautiful thing and. It really occurred to me when I was in San Remedu, Provence, a couple summers ago, we went to the. The institute institution where Van Gogh ended his life, or he spent the end of his life there. And he painted many beautiful things while he was in Provence, in Santa Remita, Provence. And I think one of the things he painted there was Starry Night. And I come around a corner and they got reproductions of Everything that he did there. And I came around the corner and there was Starry Night, and I burst into tears when I saw it. And what the hell is that about? Why are you crying? Because you looked at Starry Night. Now what I've done is you've taken like a several kilometer. And I'm gonna say kilometer because we're talking about France here. Don't on me American. I respect that. A couple of kilometer walk through San R to Provence to the. The institution, which was run, I think, by the. The Sisters of Charity or something. And you're reading along the way these plaques about what was his life like and what was his brother Theo doing for him and why did he end up here and stuff like that. And you. And the last thing you end up. You go through the gates into this beautiful. I'm sure was kind of bleak at the time, but a very beautiful place. And you. And I saw Starry Night, and I burst into tears and I went, oh, that's what it is. It suddenly came to me as revelation. Is that the thing that. Revelations, the thing that actually makes me cry is something beautiful, not something sad?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that. That's the commonality is when I'm trying to quote a song, for instance, and often when I'm trying to quote a song or. Or quote a poem or something like that, it'll. It'll tap me on the shoulder and punch me in the face. And I didn't expect it. It.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because I was. I've caught. I'm caught short by something beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the tension between, you know, the saddened, how sad or tragic the world can be, and this beautiful thing that exists despite that or maybe even because of it that comes out of it. There's an ecstatic tension between those two points.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And the energy has to be released some way. And. And for me, it's crying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. Yeah, sometimes I cry at songs.

[B]

So. Next round, question. What's the best piece of advice someone's giving you that you used?

[A]

Check to make sure the plug is in.

[B]

That's a great one.

[A]

Because I like to boat. I like to go out on the water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Make sure before you put that boat in, the plug is in. Because there's a plug to drain. Often if it's not a huge boat, there'll literally be a plug you have to take out to drain the boat in case you had water come over the gunnels. And so you got. You got water in your boat. So you pull the plug at the end of the day, especially when you're cleaning it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or else the boat will fill up with the water that you're cleaning the boat with. But you have that. You have to remember to put that plug back in.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And. And that's a metaphor for a lot.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is that before you do the obvious thing. Yeah. Do this. Make sure you've done the small, simple. Yeah, the small obvious thing. That is so small and simple.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For instance, did you learn your lines?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For this show that you've been cast in.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I literally have shown up things and went, oh, I didn't learn my lines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was very excited about doing the part. I have an idea for the character. Yeah. But I went, oh, right. I've been working in front of prompter for 20 years. I have to learn my lines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is so basic.

[B]

Well, that's what is inside the Actor Studio with Al Pacino. Once they go, what's your best advice for young actors? Know your lines. Yes.

[A]

They're used backstage at Second City. There used to be all this, you know, things that people said that somebody thought was worth remembering that was written on the back wall of Second City. Unfortunately, they got. They renovated and somebody accidentally painted over a lot of it because it was like, you know, it was 50 years of advice from some of the best comedians, you know, and. But one of the things that I remember, which. I don't know if it's still there, if it got painted over, but it said the shortest distance between two points is learn your lines.

[B]

That's good. Yeah, I like that. What is the thing, people? What's your people's favorite and least favorite thing about you?

[A]

People that I know or people you know? People I don't know? People that I know?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I think.

[A]

I think I'm an okay listener. I think I'll. I'll sit and I. I want to hear how you are. And I mean it for the most part. I mean, I don't mean. I don't ever mean it, but I try to take the time to actually know how you are, I suppose. And. And it's cool if we cry together. Oh, you know, that's. I'm fine with that.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

I think the people least like about me, I would say that probably people who watch the show or watch the work that I do probably think I'm a little big for my pants. Making jokes about subjects that they would probably. Why don't you shut up and make jokes? Like, I think that might be that. Like, a little, like, you know, Aren't you a little self important to make jokes about democracy or whatever? Whatever. And, and that's a valid response. I got nothing to say about that. I mean I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I don't have some special insight to any of this stuff. It's just that's the conversation that's going on right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like that has been the conversation for a decade now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we are a shadow of the news. And so if that's what people are talking about all day, that's the raw material for the jokes. At the end of the day because we're talking about the national conversations. I'd like to not talk about that stuff. So I don't have a problem with it. And if people don't like that, I don't, I don't like that. I don't like that. They don't like that. You know what I mean? But it's not kind of my job. It's not my problem because I'm doing my job.

[B]

It's such an interesting.

[A]

But I can understand why they wouldn't. I don't, I don't have a problem with people disliking that. That's totally a valid response.

[B]

Oh, I follow that. I always marvel at this, this bygone era that people talk about of like Johnny Carson hosting the Tonight show in the 80s when I was growing up and not mentioning politics because it feels like to, as a comedian you're talking, you have to talk about what's happening to acknowledge the humor.

[A]

Well, I'll say this. I think the politics has become a larger part of sort of our daily conversation than when I was younger. I mean in the 1960s it was, it was a, certainly a big deal. But I don't know, seven in the 80s as much as there was going on with like Iran Contra or the hostage crisis or anything like that. I mean Johnny made jokes about the Iran Contra, Johnny made jokes about the hostage crisis.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It just wasn't a big a part of the national conversation. There were times we didn't think about politics.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that changed, I think, I don't really know. I would say probably around 9 11. I think 911 might have changed what the national focus is because it became more important, it became more, there were more stakes it seemed like. And so it became a bigger part of the conversation. And also 24 hour news made it. And 24 hours a day you could put your mouth around that carbon monoxide hose of the news cycle and just suck the Fumes. Because they had. Because they had to. Because the cable news has to burn the tires of the news 24 hours a day to keep the lights on. There's not. And so much of it is just opinion, and opinion really ends up being a panel show, and the panel show ends up being about fighting, and that conflict ends up being the thing that they're selling. And so the nation becomes increasingly divided, and so it becomes a bigger part of the conversational playing field.

[B]

Yeah. So do you have a favorite joke? Joke?

[A]

What do you mean? Like, guy walks into a bar joke.

[B]

Yeah, anything like that.

[A]

Do you know my favorite knock knock joke?

[B]

No.

[A]

Say knock, knock.

[B]

Knock, knock.

[A]

Who's there?

[B]

Who's there? Who?

[A]

No, it's just. It pimps the other guy. You.

[B]

Wait, wait. What is it? Wait, can we do it again?

[A]

Sure. You want to hear my favorite knock knock joke?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Say, knock, knock.

[B]

Knock, knock.

[A]

Who's there?

[B]

It just forced me to just. Just come up with enough.

[A]

That's what I like. That's what I like about it.

[B]

Can you remember an inauthentic version of yourself?

[A]

A million of them? Yeah, sure, sure. The Nervous me is the most inauthentic version of me.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Because the. The nervous. Or rather when I'm nervous. Not that I'm nervous. Nervous is authentic. But when I'm nervous, I can sometimes construct a face for the faces that we meet. Like, you know, I try to come up with something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I think might be appealing to the person I'm talking to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That doesn't have me as much anymore. When I was younger, and I get starstruck.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. I don't star strike that much anymore.

[B]

Well, who are you most starstruck of from? I feel like it must have been in your 20s. It must have been shocking because you were on the Daily Show. Right. Or your early 30s.

[A]

You're so sweet to think that I was on the Daily show in my 20s.

[B]

In your 30s.

[A]

I love you, Mike. Particularly. Jim Martin from American magazine and of course, from the Dicastery for Culture and Education.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

At the Vatican, he said, hey, do you want to meet the Pope? Because they Pope wants to meet some comedians. Would you help me put together a list? And I was like, yeah, sure. But it really felt like we were going to hang with the Pope.

[B]

And then when. When Gaffigan called me and conveyed it to me, it was very similar. It's like, no, he wants to speak with us. I'm like, you sure? He's like, I think so.

[A]

And it really sounded like 10 of us.

[B]

Yeah, it did sound like 10 of us.

[A]

Because it said, he want, could you help me? I need a list of 10 comedians to recommend.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

And so it sounded like there were going to be 10 of us. And I imagine it was. Would be short. Yeah, I imagine it would be some little, sort of little room in the Apostolic Apartments or some of the Papal Apartments. And we would sit there and maybe we'd have a cup of tea. He would ask us a few polite questions. We would talk a little bit about comedy and there'd be a photograph.

[B]

This is what the Pope said to us. He said, I'm reminded. Do you remember this? I'm reminded in the. Of the story in the book of Genesis when God promised Abraham that within a year he would have a son. He and his wife Sarah were old and childless. I've been reading this on stage lately to see if there's jokes. And I look at the audience, I go, she was 23. And then Sarah said, God has made laughter for me. Everyone who hears this will laugh over me. That is why they named their son Isaac, which means he laughs. And then I wrote. At this point, I thought, it's. It's possible the Pope just opened a PDF of the Bible and did a command F on the word laugh. This wasn't adding up for me. And he said this thing where he goes, according to the Bible, at the beginning of the world, while everything was being created, Divine wisdom, practice your form of art for the benefit of none other than God himself, the first spectator of history.

[A]

Divine wisdom, practiced your art for none other than God himself. So divine wisdom being something that is, of course, of God, but separate from him in that moment and entertaining God, apparently.

[B]

Wow. I mean, that's where I. That's where the whole religious thing lose me. I and I. The religious thing. But it's weird.

[A]

Like, I've heard a lot about this.

[B]

Religious thing, but where my Catholicism believes me is, is that the spectator of history concept that God being Right. So it's like I. I have this joke that I sometimes tell where. Where I go. That's the thing that freaks me out from Catholic school, that's always stuck with me is when you're a kid, they go, God. Where I went to Catholic school, they said, God is watching you at all times. And so I just thought he was. I didn't think of him as a. As an entity or, you know, I thought of him as just a person just tailing me in a Chevy Malibu. Like, what's Mike Birbigli up to? Oh, he's hiding porn in the forest. I'm gonna make sure he doesn't have a girlfriend till he's 20. And that prophecy came true. So maybe there is a guy.

[A]

20'S not bad.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. But then it stuck with me. When I was 15, I started masturbating. I thought he was watching me do that too. So I would sort of cheat to the came.

[A]

Go on.

[B]

I would cheat to the camera, like go on Mike. Because I wanted to, because I wanted to think if he, he was watching the monitor, he would go. I've seen a lot of 15 year olds masturbate, but this kid's good. I think he might go pro gift.

[A]

It's a gift.

[B]

He's a gift. But anyway, so that's, that's sort of, my question is of the Popes, what he said, what, what struck you as funny or worth talking about comedically?

[A]

I mean, being able to make like laughing at God. That's kind of fun. I like that. Not like making jokes about God. He said, is it okay to laugh at God? Laugh at God. Laugh at God, yeah. Wow. Not laugh with God.

[B]

I thought that was really good.

[A]

Laugh at God.

[B]

That was really meaningful.

[A]

That distinction. I'm not sure means the same thing in Italiano, but that was interesting to me.

[B]

I, I found it, I will say about Pope Francis and if people are interested in, in this even remotely, there is a Vim Benders documentary about Pope Francis that I think is beautifully directed and, and, and really gave me a sense of like that this guy is, as far as I understand it, really doing the work, going to war torn countries. That's what I was spending time with children and hospitals.

[A]

He was struck with that for his entire papacy, which started right when I was starting the late show. He's been willing to do things that the Curia doesn't like that he's been able to buck. Not religious traditions, but papal traditions, which are not the same thing, or Vatican traditions or this sort of the things that grow on the Catholic Church over centuries. I've always thought of the Catholic Church as being like an oyster bank. And I grew up in the coast of South Carolina where you could just go out the right time of year. You can go out with your boat and you can just chop the oysters right off the bank. And they're clusters, they're not, they're not singles. Like you might get like at a nice restaurant or something like that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's a cluster of oysters and they've grown on top of each other over the years because those little oyster polyps are looking for any place to land that might be hard. And another oyster shell is a great place to land.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you, when you, you know, you bring them back and you steam them and you hose them off, and you hose them off, then you steam them and you put them on a table and you take a knife and a glove so you don't cut your hand and you work your way through that cluster of oysters. And some of them are filled with mud and you knock those off and some of them might have like a crab living inside of them. And some of them have got this beautiful oyster meat in it. And I think of the Catholic Church as this, this bank of theology and tradition, you know, the ongoing revelation, as the church calls it, that is all grown on top, each top of each other. And I think if you can respectfully and curiously and in pursuit of your faith work your way through that, I don't think you always have to eat the mud. I think you can hold out for the oyster. And there are things in the church that I don't want to eat, but I don't think that means you're rejecting the faith itself.

[B]

The last thing we do is working it out for a cause where we donate to an organization that you think does a good job and then we link in the show notes and encourage others to contribute.

[A]

I'm such an enormous fan of what Jose Andres and World Central Kitchen is doing incredible in Ukraine and in Gaza right now that I really wish to support them. Also, Radio Lollipop is an amazing organization. I know you're not asking me for more than one, but Radio Lollipop is for kids often in terminal wards or cancer wards, and it basically is entertainment for those kids who have to spend so much time, especially in their long.

[B]

Term.

[A]

Cancer care or something like that, in the hospital. And I'm a huge fan of radiology.

[B]

Gosh. Well, we'll contribute to both of those and we will link in the show notes. Stephen, it is such an honor to speak with you and to have you at the studio.

[A]

It's so fun. It just gives me so much joy to talk to you every time we get a chance to do it and we don't have to do it with a recording device. Next time we can just, we could just be with each other.

[B]

Yeah, let's just do a full hang. Do a family hang.

[A]

Oh, a fam hang.

[B]

Yeah, family hang.

[A]

That sounds good.

[B]

I did see you at the US open.

[A]

That's true. Yeah, we kind of hung with the fancy people.

[B]

Yeah. We could go to the Knicks game. No. Oh my God. Working it Out. Cuz it's not done. We're working it out because there's no that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out. That is one of my absolute favorite episodes. You can follow Stephen Colbert on Instagram stephenathome Stephen with a pH. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel ikeberbiglia and you can subscribe while you're on there. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons Sound mixed by Ben Cruz supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una, who built the original radio for Meta Pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. That really helps us out, helps people find the show. And if you like one of the shows, you know we have about 150 episodes since 2020 and they are all free. There's no paywall. We've had some incredible guests. Tig Notaro and David Sedaris and Roy Wood Jr. And so many folks. Check our back catalog and then comment on Apple Podcasts. Which one is your favorite and that way people will know what a good entry point is for them. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you're in an Uber or with your significant other and they want to start planning the rest of the day or the week and that person's not your enemy. But maybe there's a little friction. I say you don't argue. You just say I love you. I want to plan. I want to plan with you. But first let's share these earbuds and listen to Stephen Colbert on Mike Birbigli is Working it out podcast. Because nothing gets me into planning mood more than two creatives working things out. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.