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- [00:06]
A
Is it Richie or Joe Joseph?
- [00:07]
B
Richie.
- [00:08]
A
Richie.
- [00:09]
B
Yeah.
- [00:09]
A
Richie. You used to be a Navy seal.
- [00:15]
B
Yep.
- [00:16]
A
How many people do you in your life know that you're a Navy seal? I mean, is it something you kept on the dlc?
- [00:28]
B
I mean, I think it's just depends on how close they are to me. Like, I don't go around introducing myself as a Navy seal.
- [00:35]
A
You don't? That's weird. It's unusual for a seal.
- [00:39]
B
Yeah. But obviously anybody that knows me well figures that out pretty quick.
- [00:44]
A
You, you, you did nine years, right?
- [00:47]
B
Yeah, I was like eight years and 360 days. Yeah.
- [00:53]
A
Which is a pretty long career. And right at the junction of like, I should make a decision whether or not I want to do this or not do this for the rest of my life. Like pre 10 year mark.
- [01:05]
B
Yeah.
- [01:06]
A
Once you're 10 years committed, it's like. Yeah, yeah.
- [01:09]
B
It was getting right to that reenlistment time. Yeah. And I actually extended at 8 to do another year because I still didn't really have a good decision on whether I wanted to commit to a career. And I didn't want to reenlist at 8 and go to 12 and make that decision. And I was working at trade at 2 and I was doing something I was really passionate about and I wanted to extend there and kind of ride that out and see what was happening in the world and kind of see how the teams were being employed and kind of have a little more time.
- [01:45]
A
Trade at training detachment.
- [01:47]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [01:48]
A
Imagine for you guys, training detachments, a good transition point versus coming off the team and just going into civilian life.
- [01:55]
B
Definitely it was. Honestly, for me, that was the best experience I had in the team because you got to kind of take all of this knowledge. And my two cycles that I did at team four were very much oriented around mountain warfare and recce and being a sniper. And I got to apply all of that into this condensed cell at trade at and then kind of helped develop curriculum that was focused around those things that I actually enjoyed. And the thought of going back to a regular team and going through the ULT cycle again just wasn't really appealing to me.
- [02:35]
A
And the optimal, obviously has dropped off.
- [02:37]
B
It dropped off significantly. Yeah, yeah. Nobody was really operating. So that was also a big factor in the decision making.
- [02:47]
A
When you, when you decided to go in the Navy, was it because you had family in the military? Like, what was the story of why you wanted to do it?
- [02:58]
B
And that's kind of a lot. I gotta probably back up to get to a point where I could Give you a good answer to that. But I grew up in Michigan and had always been into automotive. Like, that was pretty much southeast Michigan. Like, 90% of my friend's parents were in automotive. Detroit, obviously, like gm, Ford or Chrysler. And, you know, I was really into cars from a young age and was really likely on a path to go become a mechanic. And then I realized, like, I can't really afford to do much and pursue all these fancy cars I want if I'm gonna go be a mechanic. So, anyway, after high, I ended up moving to Colorado. My dad took a job out here. Oh, eight. Obviously hit the automotive industry pretty hard.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah.
- [03:52]
B
And then came out here, went to community college for a couple of semesters, and then quickly realized, like, this is not the path I want to be on. And then started exploring options of going into the military. And I had a friend of mine that I grew up with in Michigan that knew way more about the SEAL teams than I did, but I didn't. Like, my mom is from Mexico. My dad is from Canada. Like, we don't have a US Military background in my family at all. And I didn't know anything about it, and I didn't know anybody that was in the military growing up. It's just not really that common in the town I grew up in. But so I had a friend who introduced me, and I went back to Michigan a couple months after I was living in Colorado and kind of floated the idea around to a group of friends. He was like, man, if you're going to join the military, like, you should go be a Navy seal. I was like, what is that? And so he told me about it, and he. His parents kind of put him in this position of like, you're going to finish college, and then if you still want to pursue that, you can. And then he ended up passing away while I was in buds from a heart condition that he had no idea existed. So it was just kind of the way things ended up aligning up. And then I went back to Colorado and really looked into the teams. Like, I watched the. The YouTube 234 series, and that's the Discovery Channel one. Yeah.
- [05:24]
A
Yeah.
- [05:25]
B
And then probably the fastest I've ever gone through five books. Like, I was just reading everything I could find on the teams, and it's like, this looks like a cool career path and something I'd want to pursue knowing nothing about it. You know, being 19 years old, absorbing information for three months, and then walking into a recruiter's office, like, I want to be an apc. And at that time, there was a pretty fast track to get into the Navy. Like, all I had to do was take an asab and then you take a PST that's just like push ups. Running, swimming, pull ups. And I scored really well on that. I, like, grew up playing hockey and football and lacrosse. I was pretty much an athlete my whole life.
- [06:15]
A
Swimmer?
- [06:16]
B
No, I wasn't a swimmer, but I grew up with a pool. So, yeah, the. All the water evolutions were definitely challenging for me. But yeah, so I scored really well. And then it was probably three months after I walked into the recruiter's office, I was shipping off for the Navy. And then out of Colorado. Yeah, out of Colorado. And then, yeah, two months of BUDS Prep or boot camp in Great Lakes, then two months of BUDS Prep after that, and then straight to Coronado.
- [06:50]
A
Do you feel like Bud's Prep is a good program to get guys ready? Was the numbers or the statistics proof in that or was it what. I think in many ways just like the army path, a way to just get a whole bunch of bodies into the Navy.
- [07:10]
B
Yeah. I mean, I don't know how useful it really was, honestly, because the biggest issue is like, no matter how fit you are and how prepared you are to when you go into the Navy, you still have to do two months of boot camp. And that's going to compromise your fitness in so many different ways.
- [07:31]
A
Diet?
- [07:32]
B
Yeah. You eat like, you sleep like shit. You're standing at attention for five hours a day. You're folding clothes when you just want to be working out.
- [07:40]
A
Yeah. And so it puts you in it.
- [07:43]
B
Just less of a. Yeah, exactly. So you're. Then you go into BUDS Prep and they kind of get you up to speed on the fitness element of it and they kind of introduce you to the concept of like, what log PT is going to be like. And they're not. They're not trying to make you quit, you know, they're trying to get you prepared.
- [07:58]
A
Are they seals that are guiding you or.
- [08:01]
B
It's a mixed bag. And I don't know what it looks like now, but when I was there, there was a couple operators, but they weren't really running most of the curriculum or the physical training evolutions. They'd have like human performance coaches and nutritionists and people, but they're trying to give information to like 200 something guys.
- [08:19]
A
Yeah.
- [08:19]
B
You know, it's not, it's not like the human performance programs that you probably had exposure to.
- [08:25]
A
Yeah.
- [08:26]
B
Operational units.
- [08:27]
A
Yeah.
- [08:28]
B
Very different. But yeah, I don't know. I Mean, I don't know how beneficial that was, if it would have made a difference if I just shipped straight to Coronado or not.
- [08:38]
A
How difficult was it for you?
- [08:39]
B
Did you go straight through buds? Yeah, it was incredibly difficult. It was. You know, you show up there and I'm 19 years old, I don't know much about life at that point. And you're looking around at just studs everywhere, you know, Division 1 football players, water polo athletes. And then you get to BUDS and you get all the officers that show up from the Naval Academy. And these guys are just ready to roll. You know, they've been. Their whole life has been preparing for being at that place. And, yeah, you know, I just kind of took it one day at a time.
- [09:19]
A
And did you recycle at all?
- [09:22]
B
I got rolled in second phase for a pool evolution and then classed up with the next class. And it was actually a blessing because I had, like, Achilles tendonitis and plantar fasciitis to the point where, like, it was excruciating pain. And I was like, if I keep running on this, like, it's probably just gonna snap in half at some point. So when I got rolled, it was a performance role for a pool evolution. But after I got rolled, I was able to rehab for, like, seven weeks. So I went back in the second phase, like, prepared to actually complete the rest of Buzz, because you're running every day like you're not gonna heal.
- [10:04]
A
Is Hell Week phase one?
- [10:06]
B
Yeah.
- [10:07]
A
So you had already been through Hell week?
- [10:08]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:09]
A
So they're more invested in you and the likelihood to, like, rehab you versus, like.
- [10:14]
B
Yes. And you get rolled as a brown shirt instead of a white shirt, which is a totally different world.
- [10:19]
A
So if you're a brown shirt, you've completed Hell week. You've completed Hell week.
- [10:23]
B
Yeah.
- [10:23]
A
You've completed phase one and you're in phase two. And how many phases are there overall?
- [10:27]
B
Three.
- [10:28]
A
Three phases. The third phase is your technical skills phase, right?
- [10:32]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's essentially you're learning basic demolition, you're getting an introduction to firearms, you shoot, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of rounds of pistol and, you know, your AR15. So they're just getting the level of proficiency they want in in the shooters, and then you get an intro to demolition and basic IMTs, you know, land navigate, not really land navigation at that point, but more land warfare. Very basic level land warfare.
- [11:07]
A
Yeah, yeah. Um, and you get your trident at the end of buds. When. When I was growing up in special operations, I knew seals that they would go to their team and not get a trident until, you know, their probationary period was over with. But you get your, you get your trident before you ship off to the team, right?
- [11:29]
B
Yeah. So you finish BUDS and then you start sqt. And then really that's the only time, that transition period is the only time where there's a difference in the curriculum between the officers and enlisted. So the officers do like a three or four week kind of leadership focused course of instruction. And then the enlisted group goes directly into SQT and you start training more advanced tactics from like cqc, jumping, diving, sear, all that stuff. And then at the end of sqt, you have like a formalized graduation and you get your trident and then you go to a team.
- [12:07]
A
Oh, so you go to like free fall school before you get your trident?
- [12:10]
B
Yeah. Oh, wow.
- [12:11]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. So you're completely qualified technically.
- [12:16]
B
Yeah.
- [12:16]
A
At the basics.
- [12:17]
B
To be a new guy.
- [12:18]
A
To be a new guy.
- [12:19]
B
Yeah. And then you get to a team and it's still two years of being a new guy.
- [12:23]
A
Yeah. Because are you on probation there?
- [12:26]
B
No, they change that. So it used to be very, you know, you get to a team and you might get your trident in three months or it might be two years.
- [12:35]
A
Yeah.
- [12:36]
B
You know, I've talked to a lot of guys that spent a long time at a team before they got their trident.
- [12:40]
A
Yeah. And you're, you are designated a specialty when you do that.
- [12:46]
B
Right.
- [12:47]
A
Like you, they say, hey, you're going to be a comms guy or medic.
- [12:50]
B
Or whatever that happens at the team. So once you get to a team and they form a platoon, then they start looking at what qualifications are required for that platoon to be deployable. And then they need a certain level or amount of, you know, jtag, snipers, medics.
- [13:09]
A
What was your path, what was your team? What was your experience?
- [13:11]
B
Like I went to team four and then I IVs.
- [13:16]
A
East coast, right?
- [13:16]
B
East coast. Yep. All the even number teams are east coast, odds are west coast. And I immediately was just kind of placed in recce and not really by choice, just kind of like, hey, you're gonna be in recce.
- [13:31]
A
So I got recon for people listening. It's.
- [13:35]
B
Yeah. And I enjoyed it a lot. Like, I like the land navigation element of it. I like the route planning. I liked running point, I liked being responsible for getting us to targets, you know, and so then we had an opportunity to go to the mountain Lears course through the Marine Corps and nobody wanted to do that because it was like, hey, you're going to spend two months at the Marine Corps Bridgeport facility and be embedded with those guys. And I've raised my hands like, yeah, that sounds great, you know, I'll go. So I went to that school as a new guy before I had any major qualifications and got to learn like an introduction to lead climbing, kind of take a look at mountain warfare. And really that like ignited a passion for me and it was very much Marine Corps oriented. Like you were sleeping in an open barracks and like every single morning you were running three and a half miles to the training site or rucking. So it was not like the gentleman course type schools that, you know, most special operations guys are used to going to. It was very like conventionally structured, but it was good and it was great for me to go to that school. Especially being a new guy, you're just like, hey, I'm here to learn and I'm going to do whatever the curriculum says I need to do and just like be humble. And you're integrated in with like high, higher ranking infantry Marines and then like infantry officers primarily. But that was kind of what pushed me further into the recce path and then ended up going to sniper school and then ended up being in recce again. My second rotation at Team 4 and then deployed to Europe and then got a ton of awesome experiences just working with all of these, you know, elite units around the European theater and kind of getting exposure to cold weather. Like I spent 5 weeks with the Norwegians and like negative 20 degree temperatures, doing all kinds of winter warfare. So. And then that's when I reached out to Trade it said, hey, like this has been my experience up to this point. Like, I really think I could be an asset at trade it in this cell that's focused on kind of the mountain warfare element of the teams and they brought me in to that cell and then that's where I spent my last three years.
- [16:17]
A
What did, what did, what does that entail? Like when you're in trade at, are you focused on building out technical training for the teams? Are you prepping them for war? Like what, what does that involve?
- [16:29]
B
Yeah, so trader is typically set up to support the unit level training blocks that every team has to go through. So like when we're doing land warfare and cqc, there's cell at Trade AT that's dedicated to land warfare and there's a cell@trade@ that's dedicated to assaults and there's a cell@trade@ that's dedicated to Marops. But we also had this advanced training cell that was not really structured that way. Like we weren't directly supporting unit level training. We were more on like the sustainment piece. So we would support sniper sustainment and then we would support special reconnaissance in ult. That was kind of the only ULT portion that we were supporting.
- [17:18]
A
What's ult?
- [17:18]
B
The unit level training. So it's like the nine month block of training that every single SEAL platoon goes through once they form up before they go into a pre deployment phase and then deploy.
- [17:31]
A
Very structured in guys's playbook on how you do that.
- [17:33]
B
Right. Yeah. And it changes. I mean it could be structured differently now.
- [17:37]
A
Yeah.
- [17:38]
B
Than it was five years ago.
- [17:39]
A
Yeah.
- [17:40]
B
But yeah, so. And then they also had the vertical assaults piece which was like the lead climbing kind of mountain warfare element. That was a course of instruction. So we were able to. There was only four instructors when I was there that were focused on the vertical assaults piece. So we would like develop the curriculum and kind of identify training locations and we had a lot of freedom of movement to kind of develop these courses how we saw fit, like how, how we get the most qualified lead climbers in a three week course of instruction, which is very condensed compared to how the other. Like the army and the Marine Corps structure their mountain warfare training. There's pros and cons to that obviously, but it was just a really interesting place to work and I really enjoyed that. So I ended up extending at my eight year mark to do another year of that and then got to the point where I had to make a decision to get out or stay and, and decided to pursue other things.
- [18:44]
A
What was the junction in the specific things that drew you towards getting out versus staying in? And I imagine this is 20, 23, 24, 22. 22. Okay.
- [18:59]
B
Yeah.
- [18:59]
A
So what were, what were the factors that you were weighing and then ultimately why did you decide to get up?
- [19:06]
B
Well, I had met my fiance at the time we were getting married, so that was a factor.
- [19:13]
A
And as you're starting a family.
- [19:14]
B
Yeah. Like, all right, I know what the next 10 years is going to look like. If I commit to a marriage and stay in the thieves. Yeah, I'll be gone 300 days a year. And that's just the reality of the job. Yeah. And then I was also just looking at the operational capacity that the SEAL teams were being utilized in and it was less than ideal. And then I was talking to a lot of my friends at JSOC and just asking them how things were going and how their deployments and it was hit or miss over there at the time. Some guys were getting after it, but that was the minority by a large margin. And I was just like, man, I'm either screening or I'm getting out. And then after having extensive conversations with a lot of guys over there, I was like, yeah, I think I'm gonna just pull the plug and punch out. So that was a difficult decision for sure. And I still. I think the first couple years after transitioning out, you're contemplating, should I have stayed in and then chasing the dragon around like we talked about yesterday? But now I'm on to new, exciting ventures, and I don't regret that decision.
- [20:30]
A
Do you miss it at all? For sure. What do you miss the most about service? The.
- [20:38]
B
I think it's the fact that every single guy you work with would put their life on the line for you without hesitation, you know, and you're just never gonna find that sort of demographic of people to surround yourself with. I mean, it's. You know exactly what it's like. You know, you're just surrounded by a bunch of guys that are eager to work, and they're constantly trying to better themselves and every single element of their lives and the ability to solve problems quickly, and there's just no, like, laziness is not a thing.
- [21:24]
A
Yeah.
- [21:24]
B
You know, people are just ready to solve the problems and put in front of them. And the simplicity of it, you know, I think there's a really. Your purpose and direction are so clearly defined that it's very easy to just wake up every day. Like, I'm a Navy SEAL and this is my job, and this is what I'm doing, and I'm teaching these guys, or I'm deploying here. I'm doing this. Like, it's so defined. And then you get out, and you've got to navigate the road of transitioning into something new and figuring out what you want to do for the rest of your life.
- [21:55]
A
Where the most difficult things for you, transitioning. And do you. Do you think if there was, for example, a. A major conflict that kick off being that you're still young, would you ever consider going back in or.
- [22:13]
B
Oh, yeah. I don't know. I mean, there's obviously more complexity to that and injuries and things that might have. Create a pretty difficult time for me to try to get back in.
- [22:26]
A
Don't you guys have a reserve unit now?
- [22:28]
B
We do have a reserve component, yeah. And I didn't. I just wanted to have a clean break.
- [22:34]
A
Yeah.
- [22:35]
B
But, yeah, there is a reserve component, but, yeah, I don't know. I mean, if There was another nine, 11. Yeah, that's one thing, I think.
- [22:44]
A
Yeah.
- [22:45]
B
I don't know many veterans that wouldn't.
- [22:47]
A
No.
- [22:47]
B
Go try to figure out how they're going to get back in the fight for sure, you know, but outside of something like that, it's kind of. I'm pretty happy with the path I'm on now.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah. At your age. I had just been promoted to E8 at 30. I actually made the list at 29. Wow. I didn't get promoted until I was 31, and I took my team just shy of my 32nd birthday, a sniper reconnaissance team. And I think about that time period and I'm like, man, if there wasn't relevant things that I felt were driving purpose for the mission, I would for sure get out. And then at the tail end of my career, things were fading, and that's why I left active duty and transitioned to the reserve component. But I can't imagine when you came up in 2000, 15, 16, 17, there wasn't a lot going on. A lot of the things that you guys were doing was almost like a Green Beret mission. You're doing a lot of foreign internal defense and working with partners. Is that what the guys are doing now? Is that. Is that the gist of what you think guys are doing now?
- [24:05]
B
There's a lot of that for sure. I mean, and I haven't really kept much of a pulse in the last three years on everything that the guys are doing.
- [24:12]
A
But did you cut all that away behind you, or do you still keep in touch with guys? Is that.
- [24:17]
B
No, I'm still in contact with quite a few because I ended up going into the defense industry after getting out, and then I went and worked with a company that makes equipment for like, vessel boarding and urban climbing and that type of stuff. So I was still very much like I was showing up to trade it again. And with. As a private company representative, introducing new equipment to the teams and special operations units, like, all over the country.
- [24:47]
A
So how did you like that?
- [24:49]
B
I think as a transition job, it was phenomenal because you're learning the private sector, you're learning business. You're kind of understanding that, like, I'm no longer an operator. I'm a representative of a private organization.
- [25:05]
A
You're rich.
- [25:06]
B
That's now. Yeah, yeah. I'm Richie. I'm not a seal, you know, so it was really good in that sense because I didn't have to, like, totally leave the community behind. And I. And I got exposure to all kinds of other units that I'd never seen on active duty and got to see different tactics and different, you know, ways of kind of accomplishing the same types of mission sets from 10 different angles. So it was really interesting. And then just being able to, like, introduce new technologies and help guys figure out ways to improve the way that they were operating was exciting and fulfilling in some ways. And then just recognizing that, like, all right, I'm onto a new phase of life, and I'm no longer an operator, so. And accepting that, you know, and having time to accept that and understand that was really beneficial, I think, and probably one of the cleanest ways that you could transition out, I would think.
- [26:04]
A
Yeah.
- [26:05]
B
Yeah. You know, rather than going to, like, some giant corporate job and a nine to five. Yeah. And not knowing, you know, not being able to really relate to anybody that you're engaging with on a daily basis.
- [26:16]
A
Which happens the majority of the time.
- [26:17]
B
For sure.
- [26:18]
A
Yeah.
- [26:19]
B
And I think that is tremendously difficult for a lot of guys.
- [26:23]
A
Yeah.
- [26:25]
B
But, yeah, that was good. And I got to learn more about composites and see the application of carbon fiber and all kinds of crazy equipment, and that's kind of what helped, like, stem this idea for the company.
- [26:38]
A
So you. You transition. You have a good transition period. And. And you're thinking, are you thinking about a potential entrepreneurship venture? And. And you're, you know, you're gaining institutional knowledge. You're looking at and researching different things for your business. Are you thinking about what you're potentially going to do as a business at this point, or is it all new to you?
- [27:03]
B
Yeah, I mean, the idea for Narwhal specifically started probably two years ago, but before that, I had always been, like, an entrepreneurial type mind. Like, even as a kid. I, like, this is a good example. I was in high school playing football, and there was a kid on my team that was selling beats headphones to people at the school for, like, 70 bucks. And I'm watching him, like, sell these things. Like, dude, where are you getting these? He's like, well, my brother's got a hookup, and he gets them from China and whatever. And I'm like, how much are you paying for those? It's like $20. I'm like, so you got a $50 margin, and you just, like, buy these things at 20 bucks a piece and you sell them for 70. Like, can I buy some?
- [27:54]
A
Give me a wholesale account.
- [27:56]
B
Yeah. So I ended up buying, like, 10 sets, and I sell them all for 70 bucks, make a bunch of money. All that money goes directly into my Mustang. But I kept, I kept enough to, you know, buy 20. And then I had this whole like, business going, you know, at like 15 years old. And eventually I got a bad batch. So I'm selling these headphones and like two weeks later, all these kids are coming up like, dude, my headphones aren't working. Like, I want my money back. I'm like, I can't give you your money back.
- [28:32]
A
That's not how this works. My mustache.
- [28:34]
B
Yeah, like, I'm, I'm not.
- [28:36]
A
I'll give you a ride.
- [28:37]
B
Yeah, exactly. So I end up having all this inventory that I bought because at that point I had like 50 sets of headphones in my room, buying in bulk. Yeah. And I could get them for like 10 bucks a unit, you know, So I mean, I'm like, well, nobody has trust in this product anymore and nobody wants to buy them. And now I'm stuck with all this inventory. And my dad found out about it and he's like, man, this is a pretty good lesson for you to learn early on. Yeah. Like inventory control, quality control. Like now, now what are you going to do? You know, you're just sitting on a bunch of inventory and you have no cash.
- [29:19]
A
Yeah.
- [29:20]
B
So that was just kind of like one example of like the stupid entrepreneurial pursuits that I had very early on. Yeah. You know, so I'd always kind of had that spirit.
- [29:31]
A
So you're thinking about it.
- [29:33]
B
Yeah. And I'd been thinking about different ventures and you know, something that would get me excited, something I could really lean into, kind of have independent decision making, control and surrounding myself with a team of people that I could bring in.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah.
- [29:49]
B
You know, people that I really wanted to work with and surround myself with just high caliber individuals. And I've always kind of tried to surround myself with people that are just way more competent than me, you know, to just better myself.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah.
- [30:04]
B
And yeah. So that idea for narwhal kind of, you know, created itself as a result of me transitioning, working in this defense space, seeing all these applications for carbon fiber and then simultaneously having this passion for automotive. And I got really into the off road space and then I needed a topper for a bunch of different things. Like I always use, I need my truck bed for a ton of different things and. But I also put really expensive equipment in the back all the time. So I need a security element. And I'm always putting mountain bikes back there. And, and just a topper is kind of an essential piece of my truck and it always really has been. And I'D run through pretty much every type of topper on the market. And I was never really satisfied with anything that existed. And then after I was finally making some money, I started getting into the higher end stuff and I purchased one of the, like, nicest units that you could get. And I waited a few months for this thing to show up. And then I had an installer in Denver, so I have to drop my truck off. They take the truck for the day, finish the installation, and, you know, I spent like over $6,000 to get this thing installed. And I was just kind of disappointed in like, the build quality, the weight functionality of it. And that's what really ignited the idea of like, hey, what if we made a topper out of carbon fiber and like, took every single element of like all these products that I've worked with over the years and tried to improve kind of every element of it. And then I ran that idea by my dad. And my dad had been in Automotive for 40 years and kind of C suite level positions towards the end of his career and understands business, understands automotive. And this was the first time in my life where he looked at one of my ideas and was like, there might be something here, you know. And so we kind of ran, like, did a market analysis and looked at, you know, what was potentially achievable and did like a basic financial model to see if it was, if there was scalability and if it was worth pursuing. And we concluded that there was. So I ended up selling my rental property that I bought while I was in the Navy and used the funds from that to kind of bootstrap this whole business and get it to where it is now. But it's been a really exciting ride and just bringing in this incredible team of people from my connections and network and then my dad's connections and network. Like, we've really been able to innovate at this really small scale and take a new product into a big industry. And. And we had the launch at the SEMA show in November and just that was kind of our last push to determine, is there a real appetite for this? Like, is there actually people that are willing to pay the amount of money that we're asking and put these on their trucks? And the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. And the amount of vendors that were like, hey, when can I order? Like, when, when can I buy these and start selling? It's like, okay, we got some work to do now. So we're figuring out all of our manufacturing processes and working on getting new models out there.
- [33:48]
A
But what's what's narwhal's mission statement? Like, what's. What you guys. Is focus. What separates you guys from the pack.
- [33:55]
B
In the industry, our focus is to build the best topper in the market. Like that is the goal, and establish NARWHAL as the premium segment of carbon fiber functional applications.
- [34:08]
A
So most of the things that you're doing with toppers is carbon fiber.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah.
- [34:12]
A
Or is it exclusively.
- [34:14]
B
The whole unit is carbon. Yeah. But. So what was the second half of that question?
- [34:21]
A
What are the benefits of doing carbon fiber over anything else as a differentiation between you and, you know, being the top tiered.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah.
- [34:33]
A
Version of it?
- [34:34]
B
So the biggest benefit is the strength to weight ratio is unbelievable. So the unit itself, like the composite, so the shell and all of the panels weighs 62 pounds. And then when you add glass and all the hardware and the hinge assemblies and the roof bars, you know, we're sitting right above £100. And we have. Also, because of the material that's being used, you can support up to 600 pounds of dynamic load, which means load on the roof while your truck is in motion. And that strength to weight ratio is unmatched.
- [35:12]
A
Yeah, what's. What's the. What's the fiberglass comparison?
- [35:16]
B
So a fiberglass unit will typically weigh in the high 200s, low 3 hundreds, all the way up to like 400 pounds. And there you typically can't put more than a couple hundred pounds on the roof.
- [35:28]
A
Yeah, I had a. When I was on active duty, I had a Dodge Cummins and I bought a Lear camper. Cost me 4 to 6,000 because I put carpet in it and the lighting and everything. And I remember that thing being impossible to get off the truck unless I had teammates helping me get it off. And it was also I was surprised at how much I couldn't load on it because I got it with the racks already on it. Yeah, but you couldn't put any weight on it. It was, you know, you could put a set of skis or a snowboard, but you couldn't put any major cargo or a rooftop tent.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah.
- [36:07]
A
So what's the. What's the weight comparison for a typical load rating for fiberglass versus those are.
- [36:12]
B
Typically a couple hundred pounds. Wow. You know, and then when you get into the high end segment and you start looking at the steel and aluminum options, you know, there's. If you have a modular setup, Those are typically £300 or so. 350. And then some of the higher end aluminum options, which is what I ended up Purchasing for myself will get into that, like 5, 600 pound range. Wow.
- [36:40]
A
Which changes your load rating.
- [36:41]
B
Which. Yeah. And then, you know, not the weight of the unit, but how much weight they can support on the roof. And then, you know, and they're still. So now you're in, like in the high end aluminum segment, you're still in the 200 pound range. You've got the dynamic load support, but you compromise the truck's suspension. And that's where, you know, I think one of the biggest benefits and what for me, like, being a very performance oriented truck person, and I'm a big raptor enthusiast, like, I didn't. I could feel it immediately that the truck's center of gravity had changed. And I like to take, like I do kind of Baja style driving pretty regularly. And the performance of the truck felt off. Like I could feel that weight in the center of gravity shift.
- [37:28]
A
Because you're on a Raptor.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah.
- [37:30]
A
Soft.
- [37:30]
B
Exactly. And then I looked at the suspension and we had like an inch and a half of sag. So now I have to re spring the truck or start doing suspension modifications to accommodate the permanent load that I now have on the truck. And then the process of taking it on and off is like a couple hours. And I need four people to get it off. So. Yeah. Now building amount of carbon fiber, you don't even notice it's on the back of your truck. You can't even feel it. So the performance aspect of the truck hasn't changed. And then the suspension doesn't need to be modified either because we, like, on the Ranger Raptor that we have it on, we're getting a quarter inch of sag on the back. It's like having your dog, you know?
- [38:10]
A
Yeah.
- [38:10]
B
It doesn't even impact the way the truck feels.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah.
- [38:14]
B
So that's really the biggest benefit. And then we've tried to go kind of above and beyond on the innovation piece. And the way that we've created our composite molds gives it this design structure that looks like nothing else on the market. And you can do that with composites because you're creating the mold, you know. And the way that it's designed is also there's an element of structural reinforcement in some of the geometry and how it's shaped as well, which is pretty cool. And then we're working on a production version of our hinge system that will be removable too. So you'll be able to take the rear panels off, which was something that I was always frustrated with. Like anytime I wanted to load Lumber or mountain bikes or just had items that were longer than my bed. Then I had this topper panel just flapping in the wind. I'd typically, like, bungee cord it to the roof, you know, but that's not pro.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah.
- [39:12]
B
At all. So we've made the panels removable, and then we developed a turret hatch as well.
- [39:21]
A
I love that. That's my favorite part. Yeah, that's how actually I found you on an advertisement. We had rolled that out and then stood up, and I thought you were gonna have a gun, and you had a camera, an slr, and you were shooting photography out of it. I was like, oh, that's really creative. Because, you know, if you're hanging out, whether it's just an air gap, a. A space for observation, or you're, you know, shooting a long gun, to be able to access that on a roof is really cool. What? That obviously stems from your experience in the military. Yeah. And then you integrated it. Right. Is that an option?
- [39:58]
B
Yeah, it is an option. And it's, you know, we're trying to kind of identify what the take rate is on that option and how interested people are in it. But we have, you know, we got IP around it, and we're the first company to have that. And. And I think the ability for us to innovate in the future and come up with a rooftop tent that has pass through from the topper itself without having to run a permanent camper is going to be really appealing to a lot of people.
- [40:28]
A
Like, you would throw the rooftop tent up, you pop it, you could access it from the portal, you could sleep in it, and then come home, take the rooftop tin off. Exactly. Versus adhered structure where it's never coming off.
- [40:42]
B
Yeah. And I'm, you know, when I look at a lot of the camper setups on trucks, and then you talk to people like, hey, how many times do you use that a year? The majority, I would say, are less than 5. So you're driving around every day of the year with all this extra load and a full camper rig that you use less than a week a year, you know, so that was like, why I've stayed away. And I also like camping in a tent, but that was a big thing for me, that I like the idea of being able to have a rooftop tent, but I also want to be able to take it off. I don't want to have this permanent load on my truck all the time when I'm not using it. Yeah. So.
- [41:26]
A
And then the actual camper shell itself doesn't feel like a load because it's carbon fiber and it's so lightweight. So you're not getting compromised suspension, brakes, fuel, you know, economy. It's just. It's almost like it's not there.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah.
- [41:41]
A
And then we had talked about it, like, if, you know, you and. You and the wife could take it off.
- [41:46]
B
Yeah.
- [41:47]
A
Versus, you know, having to call friends over to take it off.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah. And that's a big selling point, I think, is that process of getting it off of your truck. And hey, can Babe, can you come in the garage and help me get this thing off real quick? Yeah, that's easy.
- [42:03]
A
Yeah.
- [42:04]
B
But having three buddies come over to move your damn topper. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass.
- [42:08]
A
Well, and even storing it because it's so massive, I imagine the carbon fiber topper you could just set against the wall in your garage.
- [42:15]
B
You could. I mean, I wouldn't want to scratch that thing. It looks pretty nice.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah, it's a pretty topper.
- [42:20]
B
But you could, you know, also hoist it from your roof. Yeah. Like, a lot of people just create some sort of hoist in their garage, and then you could just lift it straight off your truck.
- [42:31]
A
Yeah. A lot easier. Imagine with £100 versus exactly 3, 400.
- [42:35]
B
Supporting that on a beam isn't going to be an issue.
- [42:39]
A
What are some of the business challenges that you face as a new entrepreneur and a new space? Because I don't know any carbon fiber camper shell companies. What are the challenges you face and how are you trying to overcome those?
- [42:55]
B
Yeah, I think the biggest challenge is just it's. It's not a material that's really been used in the aftermarket overland space. So finding people that are educated on how to manufacture these is definitely a challenge. And we're, you know, even getting a contract manufacturer to build this for us was a major challenge. Yeah, like, we're in Colorado. Most of the composite applications are aerospace based. So. And you've got, you know, that's kind of the high end is the aerospace segment, where these materials are being used for, you know, structural applications. And then you have the kind of garage way of making composites. And a lot of companies are doing that with hoods and fenders and, you know, hand laying material and basically painting resin onto the material to create parts. And we couldn't really go that rudimentary with our manufacturing processes, but we also didn't need aerospace level manufacturing processes either. So we had to find the sweet spot of, like, how do we build these and how do we make this scalable and what processes are we going to use? And then getting the engineers, the engineering team behind this are incredible. Like, they've been in the industry for decades and have a ton of experience with composites. So we ended up finding a contract manufacturer out of Utah that had aerospace experience and they would kind of build anything you wanted. Like we threw the job at them and they're like, yeah, we'll figure out a tooling strategy, we'll figure out how to tool this thing because we needed to use a multi piece tool for the shell. So essentially to create that shell, we have five molds that get bolted together and then that mold's flipped upside down and the material gets laid in. And then we use a process called vardum, which is a vacuum assisted resin transfer. So once you get the material laid in and sealed, then you connect a bunch of hoses to it and you push resin through the material under vacuum. And then once that resin cures, you pull the part out, you disassemble the mold, and then everything has to get trimmed and sanded by hand. So automating some of those processes is expensive and complicated. And you need very smart manufacturing strategies around how you do this and how you scale it. And it's very difficult. And I think that's why the industry hasn't adopted it. Because the material advantage is pretty obvious. Like it's lighter, it's stronger, but to actually build them is way more nuanced than bending metal or welding metal together. And then, you know, how metal acts against composites is also like, there's galvanic corrosion too. So that's an element that people don't really think about. But if you're not anodizing things or you're using hardware over the long term, it can be corrosive. So there's just a whole bunch of factors that make this complicated and difficult. But we've been able to put a team together that has the experience and has the knowledge base to actually build these at scale. And then the more we scale, we'll be able to shift manufacturing processes into more advanced ways of making them for higher volume. But that obviously requires significant capital.
- [46:33]
A
Insourcing it is one of the goals. Have you ever considered bringing it overseas or is making it in the U.S.
- [46:39]
B
Making it in the U.S. has been a major priority for us because we're trying to position the brand as a premium product in the set, as the most premium product in the segment. And the quality control aspects of this are really important. And we have done everything we can to try to keep this as US based as possible. And yeah, we've even the contract manufacturers working with their own US based. So like when you look at our glass, it's you know, made in Ohio and it has our silk screens and it's a custom mold that we created to make every single piece of glass and it's got our logos embedded into the silk screen and the struts are from the US and you know, it's just, we have a lot of pride in that and I think when people see the product in person, it's, it's identifiable like there's no mistaking that it's a narwhal, which is cool and something we want to maintain as a, as a company and a brand.
- [47:40]
A
So right now what do you have available, what's coming available and then what's the prospect for the near and long term as far as objectives?
- [47:50]
B
So we have the Ranger platform. The current Ranger platform is what we started as the prototype unit that we wanted to do all of our product validation on, kind of work out any issue, potential issues that we had on a lower volume sku and that's a.
- [48:07]
A
Five and a half foot bed.
- [48:08]
B
It's a five foot bed, mid sized truck, midsize truck Y. So that is getting into production now. So we're working through all the design changes that we wanted to make after the prototype and product validation phase ended. So that should be available within the next couple months. And then we have F150 and Tacoma in design and engineering right now. So those will go back the previous three so current and then the previous two generations. So for F150 that's back to 2009 and we'll be supporting the shorter beds. So the five and a half foot bed and we're really leaning into like the higher performance trucks like the Raptors. But that will have to tool up as soon as design and engineering is done. And we're looking at around 60 days from being done with design and engineering on F150 and Tacoma and then we'll hand that off. Those will get tooled, be about eight weeks for tooling and then we can start building units for Raptor and Tacoma. And then as we start bringing in more and more revenue, we'll start supporting follow on models. So we've got essentially every truck from Ford, gm, Toyota, then Jeep Gladiator will be supported in the short bed configurations for mid full size and heavy duty trucks. So we're working as fast as we can to get it out there, but it's not the fastest process.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah. As it's a startup, but it's innovative as well. So yeah, it's going to be some challenges that you run into. I can imagine it's especially for a Jeep gladiator where the gross vehicle weight and the low capacity rating isn't as high as obviously an F150 or you know, a three quarter quarter ton truck. You're looking at a potential of that market whereby you could have a shell, have a camper shell protect all your stuff, put a rooftop tent on top of it without having to add steel structure and a whole bunch of weight, which on those Jeeps I've had many of them, it is sold by 392. There's compromise at the gate if you overload them. You put a wrong bumper set, all steel with rock sliders and a swing out arm on your rear bumper and you think that's the way to go. Even on a taco, you're completely compromising.
- [50:34]
B
Your payload's gone.
- [50:36]
A
Yeah. And you're looking at, you know, I could see it from a recce sniper background. You're, you're measuring ounces, maybe even grams instead of pounds, which most people, again, they don't think about that until they get onto the trail and they're like, what is going on? Yeah, why is my vehicle not performing like it used to? Why am I not getting good gas mileage? Why are my brakes, my brake pads and rotors wearing out in half the time? So it makes sense that you would go that route. What do you see yourself evolving the business into? Or is it strictly campers? Because you mentioned rooftop tents as well.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah, no, I think the whole philosophy behind Narwhal is when we're looking at a product, it's can we develop a new product in this segment that will be an industry leading product from a performance standpoint. So can it be the lightest and strongest version of what exists? Can it perform better than everything else on the market? And if it can't, then we won't pursue it. So that's really what the philosophy is, buying a company. Like, we want to build excellent products and we want to make sure that when you see a Narwhal product, it's a performance oriented brand that will continue to expand upon, which is pretty exciting. We've got a lot of.
- [51:58]
A
Yeah, it's super exciting in that it's, it sounds like a challenge, which is for sure probably right up your alley. It's something that you want to.
- [52:04]
B
Yeah.
- [52:05]
A
Fix. And there sounds like a Lot of problems that haven't been addressed in the overland space. The military component or even, you know, government military component of that application now being very compliant because it would be made in the U.S. it sounds interesting. Yeah. I can't imagine the difficulty of that business plan.
- [52:29]
B
Yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah. And you know, I've had so many other entrepreneurs tell me, why don't you just do something easier? Yeah. Like the path. You just look at a already profitable company that you could acquire with an alone headphones. Yeah. You know, there's, there's so many easier options. But that's what makes it exciting and fulfilling is like we're solving a problem that most people don't even know exists. And it's going to be on us to do a good job of educating the market on what the benefits are. I think as we roll these out and people start seeing them on trucks and we can have customers, testimony about the performance of the products, that's where things get exciting. And I've always, you know, had a passion for building things in America and we've, you know, the last three decades we've just outsourced all American manufacturing.
- [53:27]
A
Everything.
- [53:28]
B
Yeah, everything. And there's pros and cons to that, but we want to build things here and we want to bring American manufacturing back at the scale that we can. And you know, I think our customer base can support that. And that's really. There's a lot more principle behind it than just making money. Yeah.
- [53:50]
A
And this is very family driven. It's you. Who else?
- [53:55]
B
So my dad, my brother. That's the family element of it. And then Adam is our cto, so he's the composites expert. And then we have Roxanne, who's our director of production and logistics and she's excellent, been in the space, knows suppliers, knows shipping, knows how to get the, you know, from a, an automotive perspective, like how to build an entire vehicle, platform, source all the parts, create bill of materials and get those products out and kind of helping manage that whole process with the engineering team. And then we've got another engineer, that's Ron, who's been in the automotive space for 30 years. And then we have. Our design and engineering team is phenomenal. We're outsourced with them, but they are both from a company. So the two kind of lead engineers on this are both from a company called Multimatic and they. Are you familiar with them? Yeah. So they left Multimatic and started their own design and engineering house and they're the, the design and structural performance. All the analysis that's been run in developing the Topper and the way that it looks and how it performs comes from those guys. And it's just. It's just been awesome to watch this team come together and bring this product to life on a scrappy budget, you know, but everyone believes in the product and they believe in the team and they see the opportunity. And that's been the most fulfilling part, watching this thing evolve. And yeah, now we're excited to finally start scaling it up and getting units on the road.
- [55:36]
A
If somebody wanted to check you out, like, where would they go to find these toppers or to learn more about them?
- [55:42]
B
Yeah. So narwhaltrucktoppers.com is our website and there's a bunch of information in the FAQ section. We've tried to answer as many questions as we can right there. And then we're on all the social media platforms. We're most active on Instagram. Like, if you DM us, we'll definitely respond. And we have a reservation process right now, so you can go onto our website and you can reserve a topper for your truck. You can go into the configurator tool. You'll see all the toppers that we're going to provide or all the trucks that we're going to provide Topper Hoppers for, and then you can reserve one. And we're including a turret hatch for free with your reservation, kind of just as a thank you for the early adopters and people that are willing to support us at this stage. And. Yeah, and then we've got our merch page on there and we're just getting this thing rolling.
- [56:37]
A
Awesome, man.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah.
- [56:39]
A
Well, happy for you. It seems like it's driving purpose for you. You sound mission oriented, like this is what you're going to do. And I look forward to seeing how you progress in your journey.
- [56:49]
B
I appreciate that.
- [56:50]
A
Yeah, I'll give you. I'll give you the last word. What do you. Whatever you got left to put out there?
- [56:57]
B
I'm just. I'm just excited that we've been able to put a team together that can actually execute on what we're talking about. Because I think there's a lot of business ideas where, you know, everybody's got a business idea and to actually go out and execute on that idea is where you see the drop off. And being able to put a team together that's executing on everything that we're saying and getting this thing is kind of what I'm the most proud of. And that's the hardest part. So it's exciting and we've been blown away with the support from people just reaching out to us via email and DMs and just are excited about the product and are like, hey, I don't care how long this takes. I'm just stoked that I'm going to have this on my truck.
- [57:46]
A
Right.
- [57:46]
B
And that's what keeps us going, you know, so awesome.
- [57:52]
A
Well, thanks, Richie. Thanks for coming on the podcast, man.
- [57:54]
B
Yeah, appreciate it.
- [57:54]
A
Mike, you need to add a trident to the like. The trident to the, like, put it in a secret spot.
- [58:00]
B
Yeah.
- [58:00]
A
In carbon fiber on the. On the thing. Or an embedded coin or something like that. Something cool like that. It's one of my favorite toppers. I. I found Richie on online and then checked out the topper yesterday. We put it on a YouTube video on Mike Glover channel that's going to probably drop in a couple weeks, but super interesting, very innovative and something that I see in the future being on my pickup truck because I want something like that. I don't want to have to bring over a small unit team to remove a camper topper. And I don't like the compromise of suspension either. Really rad piece of equipment. Check them out. I'll have all the links down below in the description and yeah, we'll see you guys next time. Thanks.