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Jacob Goldstein
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures you're listening to.
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Zoe Lascaz
It's an Olympics you'll never forget. Prime time in Milan.
Jacob Goldstein
The moments Chloe Kim with the gold medal.
Zoe Lascaz
Flex the stars, Ilya Malinin.
Jacob Goldstein
Out of this world.
Zoe Lascaz
Spectacle from beautiful northern Italy with very special guests every night of the Olympics experience the world's biggest show, prime time in Milan. Watch now on NBC. And Peacock, Take a deep breath in.
Wyatt Woodsmall
And breathe out.
Gerald Rosen
Your conscious mind is going to go.
Jacob Goldstein
Totally away so that I can speak.
Gerald Rosen
Privately with your unconscious mind.
Zoe Lascaz
From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, this is episode five of Mind Games. I'm Zoe Lascaz.
Alice Hines
I'm Alice Hines.
Zoe Lascaz
You don't know how you did it, do you?
Jacob Goldstein
You're going to a little time distortion state and you're out of it.
Zoe Lascaz
In a previous episode we met Tony Robbins, the 6 foot 7 self help tycoon who built his empire on neuro linguistic programming or nlp. We mentioned his work with Bill Clinton celebrities ranging from Pitbull to Princess Diana and that he's introduced NLP to millions of everyday people.
Alice Hines
But there's one client we didn't tell you about. It's probably the biggest organization Tony's ever worked for.
Zoe Lascaz
We're talking annual budget just shy of $200 billion big. We do more before 9am than most.
Jacob Goldstein
People do all day.
Zoe Lascaz
Pay for a sergeant. Yep. The US Army. In the 1970s, the army began searching for new technologies to enhance human performance. In 1981, members of the Intelligence and Security Command began to investigate how they might operationalize nlp. It may seem weird that the military would look twice at nlp, the brainchild of some California lefties, but the army was in many ways a the ideal self help customer. An organization struggling with insecurity and some serious baggage. Public perception of the military had tanked with the Vietnam War and officials worried the Soviets were outpacing the us they were desperate for anything that would give them an edge.
Alice Hines
Didn't they also look into like alien communication technologies in this era?
Zoe Lascaz
What didn't they look into? They were all over the new age map. They were doing like long distance viewing, like psychic viewing experiments that continued until the 90s by the way. Anyway, the Army Intelligence and Security Command hired Richard Bandler, John Grinder and some of their NLP friends to run a whole bunch of experiments. We're going to focus on one. One of the trainers in charge was none other than Tony Robbins. His job was to see if he could improve the standard pistol training for new recruits.
Jacob Goldstein
You know I can take any training you do in the entire army, cut.
Gerald Rosen
The training time in half and increase the competency.
Jacob Goldstein
He said.
Zoe Lascaz
You're crazy and I Said, no, I'm expensive. And we negotiated this deal. Tony said that only 70% of new recruits passed the standard.45 caliber pistol training. He also said it took way too long.
Gerald Rosen
So I said, I'll turn that around. I'll cut it in half.
Zoe Lascaz
According to Tony, that's exactly what he did. 100% of the soldiers in the new NLP pistol training passed. It took half the time and the participants used half the usual ammo. And the colonel wrote a letter to.
Jacob Goldstein
The general saying it's the first breakthrough in pistol shooting since World War I.
Zoe Lascaz
I traveled down to the suburbs of Washington D.C. to meet the guy who ran the pistol experiment with Tony.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Okay, this is the Dirty Harry special. This is the gun he uses in the movie.
Zoe Lascaz
Wyatt Woodsmall is now in his 80s. He's had a long career as a prominent NLP trainer who's worked with some pretty snazzy clients, including several medal winning athletes on the US Olympic dive team and major companies like Polaroid and Avery Denison. At the time of the pistol experiment, Wyatt was interpreting incoming intelligence. Richard Bandler was one of his NLP teachers. So I figured we could run a little experiment of our own. I wanted to see if NLP could make me a sharpshooter in just three days.
Alice Hines
This would be using NLP to do something that's very easy to measure objectively. Marksmanship. Either you hit the target or you don't.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Okay, this. This is a.44 Magnum with an 838-inch- barrel. Smith and Wesson.
Zoe Lascaz
I met Wyatt at his home where we took a look at his gun collection, which he keeps upstairs in two safes the size of refrigerators. From the outside, Wyatt's house looks pretty normal. Red bricks, white trim, a two car garage. But right inside there is a giant black and gold sculpture of an Egyptian God with the head of a bird. Also many pictures of angels throughout the house, most of which are memorials to his late wife. As we looked at his guns, I found myself a little distracted by the decor. You mentioned that she had had past life experience in ancient Egypt. Did she also. What was her connection to angels?
Wyatt Woodsmall
She came from the angelic realm.
Zoe Lascaz
Wyatt handed me a gun and walked me through basic firearm safety. So neither of us ended up in the angelic realm.
Wyatt Woodsmall
So put your finger on the trigger.
Zoe Lascaz
Okay.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Squeeze slowly. So that gives you an idea of what the trigger pressure is going to be.
Zoe Lascaz
After shooting laser bullets in his kitchen, we graduated to live ammunition and hit the local shooting range. Okay, and could we throw in another box of 9 millimeter yes. Thanks. And could we do one more red dot target?
Gerald Rosen
Yep.
Zoe Lascaz
Bullets in hand, we donned our goggles and went inside.
Jacob Goldstein
Everybody ready?
Zoe Lascaz
There was a line of booths separated by bulletproof glass, and the floors were littered with brass shells. It was busy, even on a Monday afternoon. It was tough to dial into Wyatt's advice, with guns going off constantly and unpredictably.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Red dot on the X.
Zoe Lascaz
And so this one raced herself.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Lean forward slightly.
Zoe Lascaz
Okay.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Be in balance like you were. And squeeze the tree.
Zoe Lascaz
Okay. Wyatt kept moving the target back.
Gerald Rosen
Okay.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Right in the middle.
Zoe Lascaz
Right in the middle. Perfect. Not bad for my first time out with a pistol. Hell of a teacher, Wyatt. We celebrated with lunch at Red Lobster. I was feeling pretty hyped about my progress, but I was beginning to wonder. Okay, so my big question is, how is this NLP versus just teaching someone how to shoot a gun?
Alice Hines
You read my mind.
Zoe Lascaz
I pressed Wyatt to explain what he was doing with me and how it came out of his work with the Army. Wyatt says he developed these methods by modeling expert marksmen. Champion shooters from the Army Marksmanship Unit. The premise is that people who are really good at what they do usually can't explain what exactly makes them exceptional. Modeling involves observing and interviewing experts until you decode what they're doing, physically and mentally. That gives them an edge.
Wyatt Woodsmall
And we notice their eyes would flick up into visual remembered.
Zoe Lascaz
Visual remembered. In NLP terms, that means the expert's eyes flicked up and to the left before they took a shot.
Wyatt Woodsmall
If you're constructing pictures, your eyes would go up here.
Zoe Lascaz
He glanced up.
Wyatt Woodsmall
If you're feeling sensations and feelings, your eyes would go down here.
Zoe Lascaz
He looked down and to his left.
Wyatt Woodsmall
If you're talking to yourself, your eyes would go down here.
Alice Hines
NLP is really big on eye movements. You're going to hear more about them later. In this episode, Wyatt noticed that right.
Zoe Lascaz
Before each marksman pulled the trigger, he pictured perfect sight alignment. The small bits of iron at the end of the barrel framing the bullseye. So Wyatt and Tony created a kind of mantra routine for the trainees.
Wyatt Woodsmall
Sight alignment. Sight alignment. Sight alignment. Trigger, squeeze, trigger, squeeze, Trigger, squeeze. Bang. Recover. Sight line on sideline. On. Sight line on trigger. Squeeze, trigger, squeeze, Bang. Recover.
Zoe Lascaz
Wyatt taught me this mantra, and it did seem to help Wyatt. Day three of the Great Shooting Experiment. How are you feeling about how it's gone so far?
Wyatt Woodsmall
I think it's going superbly well. I am surprised at how well you're doing.
Alice Hines
Okay, so Zoe's a sharpshooter now.
Zoe Lascaz
Alice. No one is more surprised than this reporter. But yeah, kind of. By day three, I was consistently hitting bullseyes at 25 yards, which is far. It's like the length of a tennis court. It's also one of the standard distances the army uses in their pistol training courses. So if I did it with accuracy, I would qualify as an expert.
Alice Hines
So the funny thing about this whole experiment is that, okay, yes, on the surface it's like, wow, NLP worked. But also like, low key's always really good at everything.
Zoe Lascaz
Excuse me, look at who is talking. Google her. Uh huh, sure. Except not blushing, apparently. Alice.
Alice Hines
Okay, so, but here's the thing. This proves absolutely nothing about nlp.
Zoe Lascaz
No, it doesn't. We have no idea if I would have done any better or worse with another type of training. And we're not the only ones who struggle to find hard evidence for whether NLP works. In 1984, the Army Research Institute asked the National Academy of Sciences to review the various human enhancement technologies it had been pursuing. And a group of researchers in cognitive neuroscience, social psychology, and a bunch of other related fields took a hard look at nlp.
Alice Hines
And they were pretty damning. Here's what the National Academy of Sciences said about that marksmanship experiment. The design of the study was experimentally flawed and no valid conclusions can be drawn from it.
Zoe Lascaz
Basically, the NAS said the Army's pistol experiment was too informal to matter. NLP trainers boasted about the apparent improvement over the standard training, but it was impossible to compare them.
Alice Hines
Yeah, because the two trainings took place in completely different locations. Real experiments are supposed to eliminate variables like this. In this one, there were a million factors that could have affected shooter performance, like how hot the room was, how much sleep the recruits had, et cetera, et cetera.
Zoe Lascaz
So the army never implemented the new NLP pistol training methods. And it discontinued its other NLP programs too.
Alice Hines
The NAS report probably didn't help. This quote's the kicker for me. Overall, there is little or no empirical evidence to date to support either NLP assumptions or NLP effectiveness.
Zoe Lascaz
So harsh. This is partly why people began to see NLP as a pseudoscience. But to be fair, the NAS researchers were only looking at a few aspects of NLP that seemed important at the time. They reviewed 20 papers, mostly focused on whether you can persuade people using NLP specifically by clocking their eye movements.
Alice Hines
That's this idea in NLP that your eye movements provide a cheat code to your thoughts.
Zoe Lascaz
Yeah, so the NAS said that just doesn't work. There's zero correlation between visualizing something and glancing upwards for instance.
Alice Hines
But eye movements didn't go away. In fact, they inspired one of the most prevalent trauma therapies on the market today, emdr. I dug into the secret backstory of EMDR and realized something like NLP is still being used by veterans, albeit under a different name.
Jacob Goldstein
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you backtest it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.
Redfin Narrator
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Zoe Lascaz
Prime time in Milan, the moments Chloe Kim with the gold medal. Flex the stars Ilya Malinin.
Jacob Goldstein
Out of this world.
Zoe Lascaz
The spectacle from beautiful northern Italy with very special guests every night of the Olympics. Experience the world's biggest show, prime time in Milan. Watch now on NBC. And Peacock.
Jacob Goldstein
Oh, the big game commercials are basically must see tv.
Alice Hines
Well, I take bathroom breaks during the game, so I don't miss anything.
Gerald Rosen
Smart.
Jacob Goldstein
Well, Elf Cosmetics is back this year and they decided to make a full blown absurdly funny telenovela that celebrates positivity, inclusivity and accessibility.
Alice Hines
That sounds amazing.
Jacob Goldstein
It's called Melissa and it's absurd in the best way. It stars Melissa McCarthy, TV doctor Nicholas Gonzalez and iconic telenovela villain Ita Ticanto Raul. But the real star, Elf Glow Reviver Lip Oil.
Alice Hines
Oh, okay, I see where this is going.
Jacob Goldstein
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Alice Hines
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Jacob Goldstein
Watch the full episode of their new elf novella on soyunbanyo.com yes, and drench.
Alice Hines
Your lips in an addictive sheer wash of ultra glossy color with Elf Glow Rev. You are looking at a radical new form of psychotherapy. The key is the patient's eyes shifting back and forth in a process that mysteriously unlocks the trauma of times past. Trauma like war. This is a 2020 investigation from 1994 into eye movement desensitization therapy, better known as EMDR. It's being practiced by some 7,000 therapists across the country and the numbers are growing. It's a combination of traditional talk therapy with something that sounds bizarre. Here's how EMDR works. A therapist moves their fingers or an object in front of the patient's eyes. The patient follows those movements while thinking of an upsetting or traumatic memory. By 2024, over 7 million people had been successfully treated by more than 100,000 therapists, according to the EMDR Association. The military is one of the biggest proponents of emdr. It's one of only three, quote, evidence based treatments for PTSD endorsed by the Veterans Affairs Health Administration. Here's an official video from the Veterans Administration PTSD portal.
Zoe Lascaz
If the belief you hold that's attached to your trauma is that I'm worthless.
Redfin Narrator
And that's been true for however long.
Zoe Lascaz
You'Ve been surviving this trauma or as we move through the treatment, that belief is going to stop feeling so true and we're going to bring in a positive belief.
Alice Hines
EMDR was invented in 1987 by Francine Shapiro, a PhD student in psychology. Here's how she describes her eureka moment. She was on a walk one day in the park. She was thinking about something disturbing and she noticed her eyes moving in a certain way. Then the thought no longer upset her. Here's Shapiro on 20 20. If I had seen you that day.
Zoe Lascaz
In the park, what would I have.
Alice Hines
Noticed about your eyes?
Zoe Lascaz
That they were moving very rapidly in a diagonal, just flickering up and down very, very rapidly. So I thought I stumbled upon some.
Gerald Rosen
Mind process that worked with thought and.
Zoe Lascaz
That'S what was so fascinating because I hadn't been doing it deliberately, but I noticed that it happening. So she's saying she noticed her own eyes moving when she was thinking about something disturbing and that eye movements are connected to thought. Sounds familiar.
Alice Hines
And turns out it's not a coincidence. Shapiro was an NLP trainer, not something she often promoted about herself. Her whole story about inventing EMDR at the park struck some people as a little fishy. I've read that eye movements are hard to notice yourself. They're really small and subtle. So what seems likely is that Shapiro was inspired by NLP and primed to notice eye movements.
Zoe Lascaz
One of the findings of the neuro linguistic programming research.
Alice Hines
Here's Zoe reading. An article Shapiro wrote in 1985, two years before she created EMDR, is that.
Zoe Lascaz
All people cross culturally, with the exception of the Basque nationality, show how they are thinking by the way their eyes move. Using neuro linguistic programming, people are shown how to tap into their personal power, change their state of mind and psychology at will and access a state of total confidence whenever they encounter a situation that they would otherwise find frightening or upsetting.
Alice Hines
Gerald Rosen is a psychologist and clinical professor at the University of Washington, Seattle. He's written about EMDR's secret origins.
Gerald Rosen
Their theory was pseudoscientific and bizarrely in their theory was that their statements about these eye patterns didn't apply to the Basque people. What kind of crazy thing is this?
Alice Hines
You mean like people from the Basque country in Spain, right?
Gerald Rosen
Yes. To give you the overview, EMDR is a novel technique that focuses on eye movements. The foundation of it was discovered by Shapiro when she was going for a walk in 1987. By good chance, she needed a dissertation and it's a great thing for the clinical world. That's a positive overview. The other overview is that Shapiro was a manipulative marketer who took off from NLP and developed her method.
Alice Hines
Gerald is uniquely sensitive to snake oil. As a young clinical psychologist, he researched phobia cures and published in peer reviewed journals. Then he wrote a self help book summarizing his research for the general public. And his publisher exaggerated the results on the book jacket to sell more copies. Gerald's been on a mission to expose gurus who overpromise ever since.
Gerald Rosen
The paradigm in psychology is that gurus are developing their treatments frequently, if not always. It involves elements that are known to be effective ingredients to intervene and help people. They package it in a way. They have a name and then they have their acronym, and then they give workshops, and then you can get certified in it. And it's just a model that's based on gurus. It attracts charismatic people. We sell the public on this idea that they got to be buying these products to get happy. No one's talking to them sensibly about just the difficult state of the human situation and how we're coping with all these things. Here are some good tools we know about.
Zoe Lascaz
Okay, so it does seem like Shapiro may have been interested in eye movements because of NLP. But NLPers generally don't direct eye movements. They observe them. It's a way of reading people's thoughts. Yes.
Alice Hines
So at the time Shapiro developed emdr, there was nothing in the NLP literature on using eye movements to treat trauma. It was mostly a diagnostic. So this could have been a real innovation by Shapiro, even if she were influenced by nlp. Although NLP co founder Jon Grinder did claim to have invented EMDR after it got big.
Zoe Lascaz
Another day, another NLP turf war.
Alice Hines
Yeah, so Grinder says Shapiro stole EMDR from him and he wasn't happy that Shapiro, his former office assistant, was went and copyrighted it.
Zoe Lascaz
So juicy.
Alice Hines
Grinder's account doesn't line up with Shapiro's story, of course. She claims she discovered EMDR during a walk in the park, and Shapiro died in 2019. So we couldn't ask her about all of these claims. But we did reach out to the EMDR foundation for comment, and they didn't get back to us.
Zoe Lascaz
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's back up though. Everything I've read indicates the NLP theories of eye movements are bogus. But they are apparently helpful in emdr.
Alice Hines
Yeah, I mean, it depends on who you ask. Gerald says you don't need the eye movements for EMDR to work. So in the case of emdr, the element that you think is effective is the exposure therapy portion of it. Right. Like that seems like it could be helping people with trauma.
Gerald Rosen
It's a wonderful structure. I give her credit. Except for the fact that other people were reporting this structure.
Alice Hines
At the same time, when EMDR came out, exposure therapy, which is revisiting a traumatic memory repeatedly in detail with a therapist, was already a treatment. And so for this reason, Gerald calls EMDR a purple hat therapy.
Zoe Lascaz
Sorry, Purple hat therapy. The therapist is wearing a purple hat. Fabulous.
Alice Hines
Yeah. So kind of it's a metaphor, basically. A purple hat therapy is what happens when you repackage an existing treatment that works with some flashy new element that does nothing.
Gerald Rosen
The basic idea is that the treatment works because of known ingredients, and you add this inert element as a way to promote or market or claim that you have a new and novel treatment.
Alice Hines
So it's basically a placebo effect.
Gerald Rosen
Well, no. A placebo effect is where you're taking something that has no known active ingredient other than the very general specific impact of suggestion and telling someone it's a treatment. And here you really have a treatment effect. So if I have someone with a phobia and I tell them how they should practice driving to get over their fear, that isn't placebo. That's the real use of guided exposure to overcome an anxiety problem, which is.
Alice Hines
A part of cognitive behavioral therapy, which has evidence behind it, right?
Gerald Rosen
Absolutely. So it's adding nonsense to an active ingredient. And people could do that, truly believing in what they're doing. Or you could have people who know it's a purple hat. But this is a way to start a new company.
Alice Hines
According to Gerald, the purple hat in EMDR is the eye movements which Shapiro marketed and copyrighted, selling workshops to therapists that today go for several thousand dollars.
Zoe Lascaz
Ahead.
Alice Hines
Zoe. I should disclose that Gerald is in the minority as a skeptic today. Why eye movements work hasn't been proven, but the majority of researchers think they actually are an active ingredient in EMDR treatment. So not a purple hat.
Zoe Lascaz
So what should we make of this, Alice? I mean, how is it possible that NLP is so scientifically maligned while EMDR has not only stood up to scrutiny, but gotten all this mainstream credibility? It's endorsed by the World Health Organization, when in fact, they share some common elements.
Alice Hines
So one reason could be that EMDR was a lot more savvy in presenting itself to researchers. EMDR's creator, Francine Shapiro, took great care in her method to whittle it down to a specific testable theory. And then over a few decades, researchers did the slow, boring, but important work of actually testing what about eye movements helps or doesn't, and they're still testing it.
Zoe Lascaz
Meanwhile, Richard Bandler pulled techniques from a bunch of sources, called them NLP and made wild claims about what they could achieve, like curing schizophrenics or phobias in 10 minutes.
Alice Hines
Yeah, and Bandler didn't stop there. He marketed NLP pretty unscrupulously as a sexy new persuasion technology to men in suits. He was trying to get rich. And it worked. Real psychologists noticed.
Zoe Lascaz
And when those researchers from the National Academy of Science were trying to study nlp, Richard Bandler basically made it impossible. They met with him in July 1986. They'd done their homework. They'd read all of his books to date. But when they interviewed him about things like eye movements that seemed like a really big deal, Bandler was just like, oh, yeah, those. Forget about them.
Alice Hines
Weird.
Zoe Lascaz
And the scientists were equally flummoxed. Bandler told them NLP's continuously changing. He wasn't interested in building up a solid, unchanging theory over time. You can just discard elements whenever you get sick of them.
Alice Hines
So if NLP is just a process that can involve literally any technique at any time, it's impossible to test or hold to any scientific standard.
Zoe Lascaz
Exactly. There aren't any fixed elements or principles. So when people try to apply these rigorous scientific standards to nlp, Bandler's like, joke's on you nerds. You can fight amongst yourself about whether this is scientific or not. I never said it was.
Alice Hines
The NAS report discredited NLP to a lot of important people. It was basically the nail in the coffin for NLP gaining mainstream respect. People have been calling it a pseudoscience ever since.
Zoe Lascaz
But it was not the only thing that made people wary of NLP. The NAS report came out in January 1988.
Alice Hines
Oh, my God. January 1988.
Zoe Lascaz
Literally, as Bandler's entire life and business is crumbling.
Alice Hines
Yeah. His entire future was hanging in the balance at this exact moment. What did you see when you first saw the case against Richard Bandler at face value?
Wyatt Woodsmall
It was overwhelming evidence of guilt.
Zoe Lascaz
You know, it doesn't look good. You got two guys in a room with a woman, and you know, the woman's dead, and each of the two guys are pointing at each other.
Alice Hines
Richard Bandler stands trial for murder. Next time on Mind Games. Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is is created and hosted by me, Alice Hines and Zoe Lascoz. It's produced by Ryder Allsopp and Dara Luckpotz. Edited by Kate Osborne. Editorial consulting from Adeza Egan. Original composition and mixing by Steve Bone.
Zoe Lascaz
Fact checking by Eamonn Whalen. From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers are Oz Wolosian, Mangesh Hatikador and Kate Osborne. From iHeart, our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Etor. Special thanks to Wyatt Woodsmall for the shooting lessons and to Chris and Holly Darling for hosting our team. Sometimes all we want is more of the same. Like another round of golf played from a channel with 247 coverage, another look at the garden and the deer as they pick their way through it, another Taco Tuesday followed by a Whatever's in the Fridge Wednesday. And to get more of the same, all we need is a little help with adaptable care plans from qualified compassionate caregivers matched to your family's needs. Home Instead can help you and your passion stay home no matter what's on your horizon. Visit Home instead online for a better what's next? There's a fire inside you you can't ignore.
Alice Hines
Stand still. Not a chance.
Zoe Lascaz
You're a lifelong learner who's come this far. Now we are here to help you keep going further. Capella University what can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more.
Jacob Goldstein
This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.
Gerald Rosen
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Podcast: Mind Games
Host: Kaleidoscope
Episode Date: February 17, 2026
This episode of Mind Games explores the controversial world of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)—a self-help methodology born in 1970s California, which claims to offer “mind control” tools for self-improvement, persuasion, and even manipulation. Hosts Zoë Lescaze and Alice Hines investigate the real-world applications and scientific standing of NLP, examining its influence on high-profile figures, its entanglements with the US military, and its surprising connection to trauma therapy EMDR. The episode also teases the dark side of NLP by connecting it to a notorious unsolved murder.
Notable Quote:
“You know I can take any training you do in the entire army, cut the training time in half and increase the competency.” — Tony Robbins (05:42)
Notable Quote:
“This proves absolutely nothing about NLP.” — Alice Hines (12:39)
Notable Quote:
“The basic idea is that the treatment works because of known ingredients, and you add this inert element as a way to promote or market or claim that you have a new and novel treatment.” — Gerald Rosen (26:58)
Notable Quote:
“There aren't any fixed elements or principles. So when people try to apply these rigorous scientific standards to NLP, Bandler's like, joke's on you nerds.” — Zoe Lascaze (30:38)
“A Human Technology” critically examines the promises and perils of NLP’s self-help revolution—tracing its seductive techniques from military training to trauma therapy, while highlighting its enduring controversies. The episode unravels not just the shifting sands of NLP theory, but the broader hazards of hype, marketing, and guru-ism in psychology. The cliffhanger closing—hinting at a murder trial—underscores NLP’s persistent shadow.
Next Up:
The next episode promises to unravel the sensational murder trial of Richard Bandler and the unraveling of the NLP empire.