Podcast Summary: Mind Games — "Murder in Santa Cruz"
Podcast: Mind Games
Episode: Murder in Santa Cruz
Host(s): Kaleidoscope (Alice Hines, Zoe Lascaz)
Date: February 24, 2026
Overview
This gripping episode of Mind Games investigates the dark underbelly of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), focusing on its enigmatic co-founder Richard Bandler and the 1986 murder in Santa Cruz that put both Bandler and NLP at the center of a media firestorm. Through in-depth reporting, exclusive interviews, and trial transcripts, hosts Alice Hines and Zoe Lascaz unravel how a self-help movement became inseparable from scandal, violence, and allegations of mind control.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Santa Cruz Murder Case (02:39 – 16:40)
- Introduction to the Case
- The Major Players
- Bandler & Marino’s Friendship
- Media Sensation
- Trial headlines: "Guns, Grams and Gurus" (09:20).
- Trial brings intense scrutiny to NLP.
2. Evidence & Court Proceedings (10:25 – 24:12)
- Physical Evidence
- The Tape
- Audio evidence: Bandler threatening to "blow Corrine’s brains out" hours before her death (13:19).
- Bandler claims the threat was part of an interrogation to gather information for Marino.
- Sensational Claims
- Bandler’s Downward Spiral
- Increasing paranoia, drug use, erratic and threatening behavior reported by NLP insiders (14:03–15:38).
- Allegations of Bandler pulling knives/guns in transformational workshops; students and colleagues divided in their reactions (17:13, 18:02).
3. NLP’s Shadowy Applications (19:02 – 22:44)
- Connections to Law Enforcement and Legal Consulting
- NLP “Hustles”
4. The Trial: Two Sides of a Story (26:45 – 37:52)
- Trial Drama
- Prosecution’s star witness, Marino, disappears, claiming he was chased by Bandler's “CIA connections” (26:45–27:27).
- Prosecution questions if Bandler’s persuasive NLP skills could help him “get away with” murder (28:19).
- Notable Quote:
“Do you think perhaps you could get away with killing Karene Christiansen?”
— Assistant District Attorney, questioning Richard Bandler (28:44)
- Notable Quote:
- Differing Accounts
- Marino testifies Bandler killed Corrine in a jealous rage, using a makeshift silencer (29:45–31:32).
- Bandler claims Marino shot Corrine, Bandler only got blood on him by catching her as she fell (31:38–32:20).
- Defense attacks forensics and Marino’s credibility.
5. Discrediting the Witness: NLP Backfires (33:16 – 36:15)
- Jerry Schwartzbach’s Tactics
- Aggressively questions Marino, both on threats and outlandish claims (33:16).
- Marino admits on the stand to telekinetically controlling streetlights with his mind, believing this was an NLP power (35:07).
- Memorable Moment: Schwartzbach hears the prosecutor say to the detective,
“If I ask you for your gun, don’t give it to me.” (35:40)
- Memorable Moment: Schwartzbach hears the prosecutor say to the detective,
- Jury is swayed; acquittal is swift and unanimous.
6. Aftermath and Reputation Fallout (36:34 – 42:31)
- No Resolution for Corrine
- Civil suit dropped in 2001. Bandler maintains Marino killed her, citing motive (36:34–37:13).
- Bandler claims the ordeal “destroyed” his finances and reputation (41:07).
- Community Reaction
- Stories of Bandler’s repeated gun threats to women resurface (38:08).
- Allegations of domestic violence in his first marriage, which Bandler denies (38:58).
- Chilling Clip: Bandler on NLP tape about women’s behavior provoking abuse:
"If you keep acting this way, you’re gonna get smacked by me. Now, do you want to be treated well or not?... Which is it?" (39:33–40:34)
- Chilling Clip: Bandler on NLP tape about women’s behavior provoking abuse:
- NLP’s Popularity Endures
7. Legacy and Next Steps (42:22 – 43:05)
- The “Mind Control” Mythos
- Trial and media coverage fuel belief in NLP’s power over others.
- Hosts tease next episodes: darker uses of NLP for coercion and exploitation (42:31).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
Jerry Schwartzbach on the initial evidence:
“At face value, it was overwhelming evidence of guilt.”
[03:35] -
On Bandler and Marino’s relationship:
“Trying to understand Richard's relationship with him is challenging because on the one hand, Marino really worshiped Richard and on the other hand, he really resented him.”
[08:09] -
On NLP in the courtroom:
“Neuro Linguistic Programming? What the hell does that mean?”
— Jerry Schwartzbach (09:47) -
On Bandler’s reputation:
“He would take offense at their question or their statement, and then it would start cursing them. Then he would say, get the hell out of here. And it put fear in everybody.”
— Michael Hall, NLP expert (14:43) -
On using NLP to influence legal proceedings:
“They could tell from different responses by the jurors which way they would go. They were actually making money helping pick out juries.”
— Devra Kantermorton (19:56) -
On the prosecution’s pivot:
“Do you think perhaps you could get away with killing Karene Christensen?”
— Assistant District Attorney (28:44) -
On Marino’s downfall:
“He gave that answer. And I could hear... the prosecutor whisper to the detective…if I ask you for your gun, don’t give it to me.”
— Jerry Schwartzbach, after Marino states he can control streetlights with his mind (35:40) -
On Bandler and domestic abuse:
“If you keep acting this way, you’re gonna get smacked by me. Now, do you want to be treated well or not?... Which is it?”
— Richard Bandler, NLP Training Tape (39:33–40:34)
Important Timestamps
- 02:39: Jerry Schwartzbach’s introduction to the Bandler case
- 04:54: Crime scene and initial accusations
- 07:19: Background on Corrine Christensen and James Marino
- 11:15: Key incriminating evidence against Bandler
- 13:19: The infamous tape and its context
- 14:03–15:38: Bandler’s self-destructive behaviors and community rumors
- 19:22: NLP’s intersection with law enforcement and legal consulting
- 26:45: Trial begins—key witness missing
- 28:19: Prosecution challenges Bandler on his own words about hypnosis
- 31:38: Bandler’s testimony/supporting forensic evidence
- 35:07: Marino’s implausible NLP superpowers exposed
- 36:15: Bandler acquitted in under six hours
- 38:08: Further allegations of violence and abuse surface
- 39:33–40:34: Authentic tape of Bandler’s shocking remarks on abused women
- 41:29–42:22: NLP’s popularity persists, rumors and the “mind control” narrative take hold
- 42:31: Tease for next episode on “dark NLP” and exploitation
Tone & Style
The episode strikes a balance between investigative rigor and wry observation, often highlighting the absurdities and darkness at the heart of the NLP saga. The hosts, Alice Hines and Zoe Lascaz, approach the material with curiosity, skepticism, and flashes of dry humor, particularly when describing the culture around Bandler and the wild claims of mind control.
Conclusion
"Murder in Santa Cruz" unpacks not only the facts of a notorious criminal trial but also the tangled psychology, power dynamics, and strange appeal of NLP. Bandler’s acquittal did little to slow the movement’s spread—or dispel mystique around its darker possibilities. The episode closes with a promise to further explore “dark NLP” and its potential for exploitation in subsequent episodes.