Murder in Santa Cruz

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mind Games — "Murder in Santa Cruz"

Podcast: Mind Games
Episode: Murder in Santa Cruz
Host(s): Kaleidoscope (Alice Hines, Zoe Lascaz)
Date: February 24, 2026

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Overview

This gripping episode of Mind Games investigates the dark underbelly of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), focusing on its enigmatic co-founder Richard Bandler and the 1986 murder in Santa Cruz that put both Bandler and NLP at the center of a media firestorm. Through in-depth reporting, exclusive interviews, and trial transcripts, hosts Alice Hines and Zoe Lascaz unravel how a self-help movement became inseparable from scandal, violence, and allegations of mind control.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Santa Cruz Murder Case (02:39 – 16:40)

• Introduction to the Case
  • Defense attorney Jerry Schwartzbach receives a call about Richard Bandler’s arrest (02:52).
  • Description of the crime scene: Corrine Ann Christensen found dead, James Marino present blaming Bandler (04:54).
• The Major Players
  • Corrine Christensen: waitress, sex worker, bookkeeper for Bandler, vulnerable yet tough (06:39).
  • James Marino: drug dealer, Bandler’s on-off friend, described as flashy and volatile, alleged ties to organized crime (07:19).
• Bandler & Marino’s Friendship
  • Bonded over NLP and drug use, especially cocaine (07:29, 08:09).
  • Complex, at times resentful dynamic; Marino “worshipped” yet “resented” Bandler (08:09).
• Media Sensation
  • Trial headlines: "Guns, Grams and Gurus" (09:20).
  • Trial brings intense scrutiny to NLP.

2. Evidence & Court Proceedings (10:25 – 24:12)

• Physical Evidence
  • Bandler’s gun is the murder weapon, his clothes stained with Corrine’s blood and tissue, audio tape of Bandler threatening Corrine (11:15, 11:41, 12:10).
  • Forensics reveal Bandler had cocaine, marijuana, and alcohol in his system (11:34).
• The Tape
  • Audio evidence: Bandler threatening to "blow Corrine’s brains out" hours before her death (13:19).
  • Bandler claims the threat was part of an interrogation to gather information for Marino.
• Sensational Claims
  • Marino’s wild accusations: Corrine involved in blackmail, sexual dominance, criminal activity (08:54).
  • The prosecution feels their case “fit like a glove” (13:33).
• Bandler’s Downward Spiral
  • Increasing paranoia, drug use, erratic and threatening behavior reported by NLP insiders (14:03–15:38).
  • Allegations of Bandler pulling knives/guns in transformational workshops; students and colleagues divided in their reactions (17:13, 18:02).

3. NLP’s Shadowy Applications (19:02 – 22:44)

• Connections to Law Enforcement and Legal Consulting
  • Bandler had cultivated relationships with police, used NLP in jury selection (19:22, 20:06).
  • Early stories of Bandler and Grinder consulting on trials, using mind tricks to influence outcomes (20:14).
• NLP “Hustles”
  • Boasts of techniques to manipulate witnesses and judges by mirroring speech and anchoring “positive vibes” (20:45, 22:16).
  • “We don’t have evidence these techniques were used in Bandler’s case,” the hosts clarify (22:44).

4. The Trial: Two Sides of a Story (26:45 – 37:52)

• Trial Drama
  • Prosecution’s star witness, Marino, disappears, claiming he was chased by Bandler's “CIA connections” (26:45–27:27).
  • Prosecution questions if Bandler’s persuasive NLP skills could help him “get away with” murder (28:19).
    • Notable Quote:

      “Do you think perhaps you could get away with killing Karene Christiansen?”
      — Assistant District Attorney, questioning Richard Bandler (28:44)

• Differing Accounts
  • Marino testifies Bandler killed Corrine in a jealous rage, using a makeshift silencer (29:45–31:32).
  • Bandler claims Marino shot Corrine, Bandler only got blood on him by catching her as she fell (31:38–32:20).
  • Defense attacks forensics and Marino’s credibility.

5. Discrediting the Witness: NLP Backfires (33:16 – 36:15)

• Jerry Schwartzbach’s Tactics
  • Aggressively questions Marino, both on threats and outlandish claims (33:16).
  • Marino admits on the stand to telekinetically controlling streetlights with his mind, believing this was an NLP power (35:07).
    • Memorable Moment: Schwartzbach hears the prosecutor say to the detective,

      “If I ask you for your gun, don’t give it to me.” (35:40)

  • Jury is swayed; acquittal is swift and unanimous.

6. Aftermath and Reputation Fallout (36:34 – 42:31)

• No Resolution for Corrine
  • Civil suit dropped in 2001. Bandler maintains Marino killed her, citing motive (36:34–37:13).
  • Bandler claims the ordeal “destroyed” his finances and reputation (41:07).
• Community Reaction
  • Stories of Bandler’s repeated gun threats to women resurface (38:08).
  • Allegations of domestic violence in his first marriage, which Bandler denies (38:58).
    • Chilling Clip: Bandler on NLP tape about women’s behavior provoking abuse:

      "If you keep acting this way, you’re gonna get smacked by me. Now, do you want to be treated well or not?... Which is it?" (39:33–40:34)

• NLP’s Popularity Endures
  • Despite everything, Bandler’s seminars draw crowds even during the trial (41:29).
  • Some are drawn by the scandal; rumors swirl that Bandler was hypnotizing the jury (41:56).

7. Legacy and Next Steps (42:22 – 43:05)

• The “Mind Control” Mythos
  • Trial and media coverage fuel belief in NLP’s power over others.
  • Hosts tease next episodes: darker uses of NLP for coercion and exploitation (42:31).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jerry Schwartzbach on the initial evidence:

  “At face value, it was overwhelming evidence of guilt.”
  [03:35]

• On Bandler and Marino’s relationship:

  “Trying to understand Richard's relationship with him is challenging because on the one hand, Marino really worshiped Richard and on the other hand, he really resented him.”
  [08:09]

• On NLP in the courtroom:

  “Neuro Linguistic Programming? What the hell does that mean?”
  — Jerry Schwartzbach (09:47)

• On Bandler’s reputation:

  “He would take offense at their question or their statement, and then it would start cursing them. Then he would say, get the hell out of here. And it put fear in everybody.”
  — Michael Hall, NLP expert (14:43)

• On using NLP to influence legal proceedings:

  “They could tell from different responses by the jurors which way they would go. They were actually making money helping pick out juries.”
  — Devra Kantermorton (19:56)

• On the prosecution’s pivot:

  “Do you think perhaps you could get away with killing Karene Christensen?”
  — Assistant District Attorney (28:44)

• On Marino’s downfall:

  “He gave that answer. And I could hear... the prosecutor whisper to the detective…if I ask you for your gun, don’t give it to me.”
  — Jerry Schwartzbach, after Marino states he can control streetlights with his mind (35:40)

• On Bandler and domestic abuse:

  “If you keep acting this way, you’re gonna get smacked by me. Now, do you want to be treated well or not?... Which is it?”
  — Richard Bandler, NLP Training Tape (39:33–40:34)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:39: Jerry Schwartzbach’s introduction to the Bandler case
• 04:54: Crime scene and initial accusations
• 07:19: Background on Corrine Christensen and James Marino
• 11:15: Key incriminating evidence against Bandler
• 13:19: The infamous tape and its context
• 14:03–15:38: Bandler’s self-destructive behaviors and community rumors
• 19:22: NLP’s intersection with law enforcement and legal consulting
• 26:45: Trial begins—key witness missing
• 28:19: Prosecution challenges Bandler on his own words about hypnosis
• 31:38: Bandler’s testimony/supporting forensic evidence
• 35:07: Marino’s implausible NLP superpowers exposed
• 36:15: Bandler acquitted in under six hours
• 38:08: Further allegations of violence and abuse surface
• 39:33–40:34: Authentic tape of Bandler’s shocking remarks on abused women
• 41:29–42:22: NLP’s popularity persists, rumors and the “mind control” narrative take hold
• 42:31: Tease for next episode on “dark NLP” and exploitation

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Tone & Style

The episode strikes a balance between investigative rigor and wry observation, often highlighting the absurdities and darkness at the heart of the NLP saga. The hosts, Alice Hines and Zoe Lascaz, approach the material with curiosity, skepticism, and flashes of dry humor, particularly when describing the culture around Bandler and the wild claims of mind control.

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Conclusion

"Murder in Santa Cruz" unpacks not only the facts of a notorious criminal trial but also the tangled psychology, power dynamics, and strange appeal of NLP. Bandler’s acquittal did little to slow the movement’s spread—or dispel mystique around its darker possibilities. The episode closes with a promise to further explore “dark NLP” and its potential for exploitation in subsequent episodes.

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Transcript

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[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Kaleidoscope. In the winter of 1986, Jerry Schwarzbach was driving along Highway 101 toward San Francisco when his phone rang.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

My very first call, my brand new car phone saying that Dr. Richard Bandler has been arrested and is in jail in Santa Cruz.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Jerry had never heard of a Dr. Richard Bandler before. But Jerry was a dedicated criminal defense lawyer.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

So I turned the car around and drove to Santa Cruz and saw Richard in the jail.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

At the jail, Jerry met a very subdued Richard Bandler.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

He was pretty pale and he was obviously quite scared.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler would soon be charged with first degree murder. What did you see when you first saw the case against Richard Bandler?

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

At face value, it was overwhelming evidence of guilt. Take a deep breath in.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Breathe out. Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so that I can speak privately with your unconscious mind.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

From Kaleidoscope and I Heart podcasts, this is mind Games Episode 6. I'm Alice Hines.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

I'm Zoe Lascoz.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

You don't know how you did it, do you? You go into a little time distortion state and you're out of it.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

When we began researching Neuro Linguistic Programming or nlp, we very quickly became fascinated with the man behind it. Bandler seemed like a therapy genius, but also a loose cannon who regularly intimidated and threatened people in his orbit.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

And then of course there's the fact that he was accused of murder in 1986.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

As you can imagine, the story is complicated. We're going to start with the facts.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

On November 3, 1986, Santa Cruz county sheriffs were called to investigate a possible homicide. When they arrived, they found a 31 year old woman named Corrine Ann Christensen sprawled on her back in her home. She was dead from a single gunshot wound to her face. At the scene was a man named James Marino. He told the police that he was not responsible for her death. That she had been shot and killed by another man, Richard Bandler.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

It was an explosive case in Santa Cruz. When I met NLP trainer Judy DeLozier in California. She recalled hearing Bandler had been arrested on tv.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

I think we heard it on the news.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

She was with her then husband, Bandler's former collaborator, Jon Grinder. What did you and John say to each other?

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Oh shit, yo.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Shit.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

You know, it doesn't look good. You got two guys in a room with a woman and you know, the

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

woman's dead and each of the two guys are pointing at each other. It's, you know,

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

the two Guys in the room. James Marino and Richard Bandler had once been as close as father and son. Now they were pointing the finger at one another. A lot of what you will hear in this episode comes from court transcripts of the trial in 1987 and 1988. Also from my interview with Bandler's defense attorney, Jerry Schwartzbach. Who are the major players in this case.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Besides Richard, there was Corrine Christiansen, who was the daughter of a retired San Francisco police detective.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Corrine graduated high school early in nearby San Bruno. Then she went to work as a waitress. She liked to roller skate around the neighborhood. Friends said she was sweet and happy to help people. But she also hid her vulnerability under a tough exterior. In photos from the time, she has a mane of curly brown hair and a big smile. Corrine had a few different jobs. Sex work, bookkeeping for Bandler's NLP business and running drugs for her much older boyfriend, James Marino. Marino, according to news coverage from the time, was a 54 year old with a 70s mustache and a two page rap sheet.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

And he and Richard were close. He also was a drug dealer. There were rumors he had connections to organized crime.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Richard Bandler and James Marino first met at an NLP seminar. And they became close in the early 1980s, around the time Bandler divorced from his first wife, Leslie. That breakup was messy and contentious. So was Bandler's breakup. Around the same time, with his NLP co founder nearly bankrupt, Bandler met Marino at a local bar. The two became fast friends, bonding over their love of NLP and and cocaine. By 1986, the year of the murder, Marino was allegedly supplying Bandler with an ounce of cocaine a week, according to news reports of court testimony.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Trying to understand Richard's relationship with him is challenging because on the one hand, Marino really worshiped Richard and on the other hand, he really resented him.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Marino told one reporter that Bandler was, quote, a fucking genius. The same writer described Marino as tall and flashy with a gambler's weakness for diamond rings, white loafers and Cadillac sedans.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

You know, people like to be around people who are famous and Richard in that world was famous. But then Marino, he did an awful lot of drugs. And you know, you do enough drugs for a long enough period of time and your mind gets warped.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Marino was extremely paranoid, especially when it came to Corinne. In his testimony, Marino accused Corinne of all sorts of lurid acts that frankly defy credibility. That she slept with seven different people every day, that she dominated them with her collection of dildos, and that she supposedly recorded BDSM sessions with powerful Santa Cruz clients, apparently to blackmail them. The media had a field day with these sensational claims. When the trial began a year later, in 1987, articles appeared in the LA Times, the San Francisco Chronicle, and the Santa Cruz Sentinel. There were headlines like Guns, Grams and Gurus. The murder trial thrust Richard Bandler and Neuro Linguistic Programming into the spotlight.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Neuro Linguistic Programming? What the hell does that mean?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler's lawyer, Jerry Schwartzbach, had never heard of NLP when he took the case.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Early on, in my representation of Richard, I got a telephone call, and it was a lawyer from Los Angeles. He was a plaintiff's personal injury lawyer. And he asked me if I've read Richard's books, which I hadn't. And he said, oh, you have to read them. You have to read them. I I told him, look, Richard retained me because he has faith that I actually know what I'm doing as a lawyer, and I don't think he would want me to experiment.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

In his murder trial, Jerry was already kind of famous. He was in his 40s and the year prior had represented radical lawyer Stephen Bingham, who had been on the run for over a decade from accusations that he smuggled a gun to imprisoned Black Panther George Jackson. Jerry got him acquitted, and Bandler needed a good lawyer because the evidence was not in his favor. The first strike against him. Bandler didn't call the cops. Marino did. That allowed him to tell his version of what happened that night, which was that it was Bandler who shot and killed Corinne. And after it happened, Marino and Bandler drove to a nearby beach town to get rid of the gun, a.300 and.57 Magnum pistol that they threw off the pier.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

The police subsequently found the gun. It was Richard's gun. They got a search warrant and went to search the house Richard was living in. There they found some of Richard's clothes and had some of Corrine's blood and brain tissue.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

The police also took a blood sample from Bandler.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

He had cocaine, marijuana and alcohol in his system.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

And then there was the tape.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

And when the police were walking out, they saw a tape recorder. They just grabbed it.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

That was the next big strike against Bandler. On the tape, there was a recording of Bandler arguing with Corrine. At one point, he threatened to, quote, blow Corrine's brains out. This was the night before she was shot. It was all looking really bad for Bandler. Marino telling his story first to the police. Bandler's gun, the murder weapon getting fished out of the Bay and then the tape. When Bandler got his chance to explain, an even more complex backstory started to emerge. When asked about the tape, his angry threats to Corrine right before she was killed, Bandler admitted that he was angry. But he said he was trying to get information from Corinne to help out their friend James Marino, who'd gotten badly beaten just a few days prior. Here's the backstory from trial testimony At a Halloween party, Marino, dressed in a pirate costume, was beaten by two assailants dressed as punk rockers. Bandler assumed Marino had done something dumb and gotten beaten up by strangers at this party. But Marino blamed Corrine for setting up the attack, or at least Bandler said he did. A week after the party, Corinne roller skated over to Bandler's house, and that's where Bandler interrogated her. With the tape running, Richard was trying

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

to get her to admit that she had done that and why, et cetera. And at one point, he threatened to put a bullet in her brain. She was killed with a bullet in her brain the next day. Right. It was just a matter of hours

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

later, the assistant district attorney assigned to the case felt like it was a slam dunk. He told a reporter that the physical evidence, the forensic evidence, and Marino's story all, quote, fit like a glove. The murder weapon was Bandler's. The clothes stained with Corrine's blood were, were Bandlers. And Bandler was on tape threatening to kill Corinne.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

I interviewed a bunch of NLP trainers about the shockwaves the trial sent through the community and what Bandler was like in the years leading up to it. Bandler's reputation wasn't exactly spotless. Since Bandler split with his collaborator, John Grinder Around 1980, Bandler had grown increasingly paranoid and self destructive.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

I saw him chase out eight different people, participants. He would get an argument with him.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

NLP expert Michael hall, who trained with Bandler around the time of the trial, said Bandler was aggressive with students. Bandler did not respond to this characterization when asked.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

And he would take offense at their

[Advertisement Voice 2]

question or their statement, and then it would start cursing them. Then he would say, get the hell out of here. And it put fear in everybody. Like, don't speak up and don't contradict him because he'll chase you out.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Bandler seems to have been spinning out.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

He would only show up in the

[Advertisement Voice 2]

afternoons because he would stay up really at night drinking and dragging, I suppose. So we wouldn't see him till lunchtime. And so sometimes he would come in Drunk. So there were times when he was just soused, and usually it made him a better person when he was drinking. He would be a little bit kinder

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

and softer with it.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

But not always. Neighbors reported Bandler yelling at their kids and waving a gun around in broad daylight, telling them to shut up so he could sleep.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yikes.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Yeah, his drug use was epic. One friend remembered Bandler pulling out the biggest bag of blow they'd ever seen and Bandler snorting straight from the pile. Other friends said he surrounded himself with sex workers to avoid falling in love. Marino even claimed in his testimony that Bandler was considering adopting a baby and raising it alone so he wouldn't have to deal with women.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

That is so absurd, especially given where he was living at the time. So, according to court documents, this house was like a security bunker. There's a. It was filled with guns that he kept in a gun safe. It has, like, a seven foot high fence all around it that's completely opaque, so no one can see in. There's bars on every window.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Okay, so definitely not a cozy space for a baby, hypothetical or otherwise.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yeah, or an adult. So Bandler kept voice activated tape recorders in this house, and if anyone came in, there's a chance they'd be caught on tape.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Which explains the tape that came up in the trial.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yes, he used one of these recorders to tape the conversation with Corinne where he. He says he's going to blow her brains out.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

What's stunning to me, though, is that at the same time that Bandler is part of this seedy Santa Cruz underworld, he's also giving seminars that were really well attended.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yeah. Okay, so Bandler's spiraling. Why did people keep coming?

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Well, some of his fans rationalized his behavior. I've heard of him pulling knives and guns on people to sort of inspire behavioral transformation. Did you ever observe that?

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Okay, yes. So once again, that's where Bandler could be. Be misunderstood.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

You've heard various stories about Bandler's violent threats on this series before Wyatt told me another story about Bandler threatening to beat up a rebellious teen he was trying to reform. According to Wyatt, Bandler slammed the kid against the wall and said, let's get one thing straight, punk. I've got a perfect record. You're either going to do what I tell you, or I'm going to beat the shit out of you. But not everyone thought they were red flags. Like NLP trainer Wyatt Woodsmall, who worked with Bandler on his military contracts a couple of years before the murder. And he actually praised the therapeutic benefits of Bandler's threats on people's lives.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

So presumably, in one of the trainings, Bandler was in a bar and put a gun to the side of one of his students heads in order to try to get him to change. And the student ended up changing. And so the threat worked. Richard, out of the goodness of his heart, would have the ultimate compassion to hold a gun to the side of a student's head to provide the motivating factor that would allow them to make a change that up to that point, they had previously been unsuccessful in doing.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Bandler denies he ever pulled real guns on students.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

When Bandler was arrested for Corinne Christiansen's murder in 1986, he was in deep trouble, and the NLP community was panicked. But Bandler had one thing going for connections to law enforcement. His lawyer, Jerry Schwartzbach, said those contacts help get Bandler out of jail.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

He had an awful lot of supporters, a whole lot of people who just believed he walked on water. There were governmental people who signed declarations to help me get his bail reduced and thereby get him out of jail, which was a very, very important thing to happen.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler had been cultivating these connections for years.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

John and Richard would also go and work for attorneys, like picking juries. Whoa, wait. So lawyers would bring them in to help identify people's personalities, or how would that work? Yes, like they would help them pick out the jury. Devra Kantermorton, the early NLPer who told us about Bandler and Grinder tying her to a wooden cross at a Christmas party, said they worked specifically with trial lawyers back when she knew them in the 1970s.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

They could tell from different responses by the jurors which way they would go. They were actually making money helping pick

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

out juries doing jury consulting. Wow, I'd never heard that before. That's bananas.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yeah, it is.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Dever said it worked kind of like a poker tell. Bandler and Grinder would watch the lawyers interview the potential jurors, and they'd allegedly pick people who'd be sympathetic to their clients by reading their little unconscious giveaways. Bandler didn't respond to an email asking him for comment.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Here he is sounding very young from a cassette one of his followers made in 1979.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Do we have any lawyers, by the way?

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Got any? No lawyers.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

It's too bad.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Got a great thing for lawyers.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

If any of you ever need anything,

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

I've got a new thing to get any witness, even when they're telling the truth, to admit that they lied.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

So I listened to this tape of Bandler, and the trick is, basically, when you're a lawyer and you depose a witness, you're supposed to ask them to describe what they were wearing and where they were standing at the scene of a crime. And you ask them if they can see an image of themselves clearly in that moment in time. And they say yes.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Okay, where's this going?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Well, months later at trial, you ask the same witness the exact same line of questions, and they'll respond in the same way. Then you point out to the jury it's impossible someone could have a picture perfect image of themselves when they were looking at the accident. So therefore, this witness's memory is distorted.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

So you train them to discredit themselves.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yeah, that's what he says to do.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Okay, I'm just gonna cling to my ideals of justice and quietly pray that never worked. I'm honestly not surprised, though, because when I was interviewing the veteran NLP crew, I heard about a different jury hustle. In a publication from 1980, Bandler and Grinder claim they could influence judges with NLP. They gave a few examples of how to do it in this book they co authored with a few other trainers. In it, they described mimicking the judge's speech patterns. They also described how to clear your throat distinctively every time the judge seems happy to anchor those positive vibes to the sound.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Wait, so you're.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

You're clear?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Clearing your throat is an anchor for the judge to be, like, psyched?

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Mm.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

That is so absurd. I could really imagine that backfiring.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Yeah, it sounds distracting. Especially because they specify that throat clearing needs to be, like, distinctive enough to be noticeable, you know, so you have to kind of do a very special throat clear. But I'm not gonna try. But not so weird that it's just completely conspicuous and strange.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Oh, my God. Okay, so these are a ton of weird tricks. We should let listeners know, though, that we don't have any evidence these techniques were used in Bandler's own case.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Still, when the trial began, NLP would play a huge part.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

That's after the break.

[Podcast Host]

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[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

There was a ton of evidence against Bandler. Assistant District Attorney Gary Fry believed it would be an open and shut case. But when the trial started on December 1, 1987, it got off to a rocky start. Starting with the fact that James Marino, the prosecution's key witness, just didn't show up. Moreno had been given immunity for drug trafficking charges in exchange for testifying. He did finally show up a week late in court. It turned out Marino had been in hiding. He testified he thought Bandler and his CIA connections were chasing him. And he said they had even fired shots in his car window.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Bandler's lawyer, Jerry, questioned Marino about this. Here's a voice actor reading the exchange.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

So you thought that he might have been using his contacts in the police department to bug the phones of your friends, Is that what you're saying? Yes. And I considered Richard having contacts with the CIA and the DEA that because when I after the shooting, I asked my attorney and he said it was probably special Forces that shot at me.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Marino came off during the trial as pretty unstable. Bandler, meanwhile, testified in a few well chosen words he was convincing. But the prosecutor still tried to use his persuasiveness against him. Here's the Assistant District Attorney questioning Bandler on the stand about this NLP book he wrote.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Do you recall writing in Transformations, quote, no matter what you do, whether you're selling cars, doing psychotherapy or working with juries, you can do it and elicit more intense responses from people. Hypnosis will allow you to do whatever you do and have a greater impact with it, unquote. Do you believe that? Yes. If you use it. Do you think perhaps you could get away with this? I beg your pardon? Do you think perhaps you could get away with Killing Karene Christensen. I didn't kill Karene Christensen.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

When I interviewed him, he was only allowed to talk about nlp. Kathy Holub reported on the case for the San Jose Mercury News. Marino and Bandler both gave her sit down interviews before the trial. She said that Bandler was eerily calm. I described him as being very gentle. He was able to put on many different Personas. That was my feeling about him. Marino, on the other hand, was anxious and full of conspiracy theories. But she found him credible. He seemed incapable of keeping any thought to himself. It was just pouring out in this torrent. And so I believed him. And he didn't seem to have any guile.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

So I read over the trial transcripts to try and iron out James Marino's version of events. Marino testified that Bandler killed Corrine because of a secret affair she was having with one of Bandler's girlfriends. Marino said he told Bandler about the affair the night before Karine was killed. And then early the next morning, he and a decidedly upset Bandler went over to Karine's house. She let them in, and Bandler locked the door behind them. Then, according to Marino, Bandler pulled out his gun and pointed it at Marino's head. Here's the assistant district attorney questioning Marino on the standard.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

What was it, Mr. Bandler said as he pointed it at you? The three of us aren't leaving here alive.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Marino was weak and afraid. He was maybe still concussed, he said. He lay down on the couch. Bandler, meanwhile, continued ranting and raving. At some point, Marino heard a grinding sound coming from the kitchen. Marino walked over and saw Bandler sawing a green soap bottle in half with a steak knife.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

He looked in my eyes and he took the automatic and he put it in it. And he said, it makes the silencer.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

A little bit later, Marina was back on the couch. Karine and Bandler were sitting at her dining room table. The room was hushed.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

And when you opened your eyes then what did you see? Richard staring at Corrine. And Corrine, what was she doing? Corrine took her bindle again and started to put it up her nose. And Richard picked up the gun, the revolver, and just kept staring at her. He took the gun and he put it against her nose.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

At this point, according to Marino, that's when Bandler fired.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler had an entirely different account of the night. It went like this. Bandler testified it was James Marino who insisted on going to Corinne's house and that Marino shot Cornelius. Korine just walked up and fired at her. Bandler said he leapt up and grabbed a hold of Karine as she choked, staining his shirt front with her blood. Jerry Schwarzbach made his case by attacking the forensic evidence against Bandler. The prosecution said that the blood and tissue on Bandler's shirt was blowback from the gun fired at close range. But Jerry presented evidence showing this was just incorrect.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Their expert testified that the gun would have had to have been practically touching her skin. And that was just not consistent with where blood was found.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Jerry argued that Karine's blood got on Bandler's shirt when he leapt up and caught her after Marino shot her. Jerry showed persuasively that Karine's injuries confirmed Bandler's account. The bullet had come from a different direction. But Jerry's case also hinged on discrediting James Marino. And all of Marino's NLP training proved to be his undoing. On December 15, 1987, Jerry began cross examining James Marino. Jerry was wearing a bow tie, a tailored suit and raccoon ring socks. Marino looked to one reporter like a, quote, coked out extraterrestrial.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

So I got up and I walked in front of council table as close as I could without getting in too close. And my very first question to him was, are you going to kill me, Mr. Marino?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Marino had threatened to kill Jerry to Kathy Holub, that reporter we heard from earlier, and she published his threats in her article. Marino described Jerry as a fucking curly

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

haired little Jew boy. All I had ever done was ask him questions in a courtroom and he wanted to see me dead. So what must he have thought about Corrine?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Marino's threats played into Jerry's hand. Then Jerry moved on to NLP and how Marino thought he was God's gift to it. On the witness stand, Marino claimed he had a superpower for detecting lies. A familiar NLP selling point.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

I had made a lot of headway in my cross examination of him. And that caused me to do something that I rarely ever, ever have done. And that was to ask a question where if I got the wrong answer, you know, I didn't have a way of proving that he was lying. So I played on his, basically his ego because that's one of the things that I developed in my cross examination of how good he thought he was at and NLP versus Richard. And as I got there, I just thought, do I do this? Do I not do this? And I said, the hell and I asked that question. I asked several other questions similar.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

You didn't know if he would take the bait.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

And actually, no, I didn't. And I had no way of proving it. But to get him to admit that he thought he had these supernatural skills.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Supernatural skills like turning streetlights on and off with his mind. James Reno testified that he was able to, like, telekinetically control streetlights.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Can't everybody?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Oh, my God.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Yes, he did. Yeah, he did. He did.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

And he said that was nlp?

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Yeah.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

According to Jerry and many reports from the trial, When Marino answered affirmatively that he had telekinetic powers, the assistant district attorney turned to the detective next to him.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

He gave that answer. And I could hear, because I was standing near council table, and I hear the prosecutor whisper to the detective sitting next to him, if I ask you for your gun, don't give it to me.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

In other words, the prosecutor knew it was all over. His star witness had blown it. Jerry's tactic was to discredit Marino beyond a reasonable doubt. In his closing arguments, he asked the

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

jury, would you buy a used car from James Marino if you wouldn't buy a used car from him? I don't think they've convinced you beyond a reasonable doubt that he's credible.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

It worked. The jury came back with an acquittal less than six hours later.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

They had an unanimous jury to acquit Richard in the morning. But they thought if they had been there so long, the county should at least pay for a lunch.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler was acquitted in 1988. For a while, he faced a civil suit from Corinne's parents. They blamed Bandler for the wrongful death of their daughter and asked for damages. The case was dismissed in 2001. No one was ever held responsible for Karene's death. Bandler has consistently maintained that it was Marino who killed her. And he points out that Marino, as Corinne's ex boyfriend, had a very clear motive. In a 2023 documentary called Altered States, Bandler explains that he believes Marino had planned it.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

I really, on reflection, think he planned it because, I mean, I was at home. I got a call that he had been beaten up at some bar, asked for a ride home. And when I picked him up, he was all beat up. And he didn't seem to know who did it or why they did it or whatever. And I just took him home, put him on the couch, had him go to sleep. And he woke me up later and said he wanted to go to his girlfriend's house. And then went nuts, started tearing the place up and. And came and shot her.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Although Bandler was found not guilty, the trial did Damage his reputation. Steven Gilligan, another early NLP guy, remembers running into an old Bandler mentor around the time of the murder trial. It was family therapist Virginia Satir.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

And I said, oh, you heard about Richard, right? And. And I fully expected her to be the earth mother. And she said, yes. And you know he did it, don't you? And I was a little taken aback, and, you know, mumbled something like, well, I guess that's for the jury to decide. She said, no. She started talking about that it was the fourth woman that he had held guns to their head.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Bandler admitted to one of these instances at trial. He testified that he had pointed a gun at one of his apprentices, Christina hall, because she was, quote, going off emotionally and he wanted her to stop. Satir told Gilligan that Bandler had also held up his ex wife, Leslie Cameron.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

It was Leslie Cameron that got Virginia so upset. Leslie apparently was a very abusive relationship.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler divorced from his first wife, Leslie Cameron, in 1981. According to multiple news articles from the 1980s, domestic violence was a factor. Bandler completely denies these claims.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

That's also a lie that she perpetrated so that she could get a lot of money out of a divorce.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

I found an NLP tape where Bandler discusses domestic abuse directly. The tape is called Creating Therapeutic Change, and it was copyrighted for sale in 1987, the same year of the murder trial.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

I mean, you know, if she lets him beat her up, you know, for five years, you know, it's not just him doing it, because these things work in systems. All it takes is the right tonality and she can get him to hit her.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler's not talking about Leslie or anyone specific in this tape, but about the types of situations he says result in domestic abuse.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

I did a thing for a shelter for abused women, and, you know, I was in there five minutes, and I felt like. Like slapping the shit out of them, you know, I was like, change your tone of voice, man. You want me to help you? Shut up or I'll smack you one. And I mean, it was. They had the horrid tonality. I mean, it was like, you know, five dental drills coming at you at one time, you know, And I really had to teach them, look, if this is the way you want men to treat you, keep talking this way. And it was, well, we shouldn't have to change the way we act, you know, in order to be treated, right? And I said, maybe you shouldn't, but if. If you keep acting this way, you're gonna get smacked by me. Now, do you want to be treated well or not? Do you want to be hit or do you want to be treated well? Which is it?

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

It's very telling that there are zero women laughing in this anecdote.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

One of many chilling elements, the chorus of laughter,

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Basically, it was a hideous nightmare.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Bandler has said the trial took a toll. After it was all over, he packed up and left Santa Cruz.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

It destroyed me financially. It destroyed my reputation, and it's not that I couldn't build it up again by doing good work, but, you know, all I ever really tried to do is help people, and this just took me apart in every way imaginable.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

So even though Bandler was acquitted, all of the media coverage was extremely damaging.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

People kept flocking to nlp, though. I mean, even after he was bailed out of jail, Bandler was putting on seminars to cover his legal fees, and they were really well attended.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

This is, like, so weird to me. Do we think that there was some rubbernecking aspect to this one guy?

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Interviews said it definitely burnished Bandler's reputation in the eyes of some people who, who had, you know, never hung out with an accused murderer before and were like, ooh, let me check it out.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

People wanted to go.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

People wanted to go. I think partly because there were all sorts of rumors flying around during the trial that Bandler was hypnotizing the jury.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

That sounds completely false to me. I don't think that happened at all. No.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

I mean, a lot of experts will tell you that it is impossible to turn everyday people into unsuspecting puppets with hypnosis, but a bunch of Bandler students after the trial based entire careers on the idea that it is possible.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

Yeah, this idea of mind control has been floating around our whole podcast, and after the murder trial, it really takes off.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Over the next couple episodes, we're gonna dig into the world of dark nlp,

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

people who seek to use NLP for coercion, even X exploitation.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Was that real?

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Yeah, totally real.

[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Was that real? Seriously?

[Advertisement Voice 2]

That's totally real, dude. You know, she looked like you hypnotized her. I did hypnotize her.

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

That's next time on Mind Games.

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

Mind Games is a collaboration production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is created and hosted by me, Zoe Lascaz and Alice Hines. It's produced by Ryder Alsop and Dara Luk Potts, edited by Kate Osborne. Editorial consulting from Adeza Egan, original composition

[Narrator (Alice Hines)]

and mixing by Steve Bone, Fact checking by Eamonn Whalen from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oswalochian, Mangesh Hatikador and Kate Osborne. From iHeart, our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Etor. Special thanks to voice actor Walter Sipser and to Jerry Schwartzbach for reading his lines, providing us with court documents, and for his excellent book leaning on the A Personal History of Criminal Defense.

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[Advertisement Voice 2]

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[Advertisement Voice]

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[Interviewee (Jerry Schwartzbach)]

Co.

[Advertisement Voice]

Sometimes all we want is more of

[Co-host (Zoe Lascaz)]

the same, like another round of golf played from a channel with 247 coverage, another look at the garden and the deer as they pick their way through it, another Taco Tuesday followed by a Whatever's in the Fridge Wednesday. And and to get more of the same, all we need is a little help with adaptable care plans from qualified compassionate caregivers matched to your family's needs. HomeInstead can help you and your passions stay home no matter what's on your horizon. Visit home instead online for a better what's next?

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