NXIVM

Summary

Mind Games – Episode 8: NXIVM

Podcast: Mind Games
Host(s): Kaleidoscope (Alice Hines and Zoë Lescaze)
Date: March 10, 2026
Theme: The Dark Side of NLP – How Neuro-Linguistic Programming Fueled NXIVM’s “Mind Control”

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Alice Hines and Zoë Lescaze dissect the most infamous spinoff of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP): the NXIVM cult. Through interviews with former NXIVM co-founder Nancy Salzman and survivor Sarah Edmondson, they explore how NLP—a communication and self-help technology—became a central weapon in NXIVM’s arsenal of coercion, manipulation, and abuse. The hosts also probe the limits of “mind control”: Can NLP be used for good, or is it dangerous in the wrong hands?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: NLP’s Path to NXIVM

• Introduction to NLP as a powerful persuasion technique, its self-help origins, and its adoption by figures from Tony Robbins to cult leaders (03:42).
• NLP’s Dual Nature: "NLP started as self help, but it also began to appeal to groups that sold self help as a bait and switch in order to control and exploit groups popularly known as cults." – Alice Hines (04:01)

2. NXIVM: Self-Help or Sex Cult?

• Rise and Fall: Outwardly, NXIVM pitched “Executive Success Programs” to high achievers, celebrities, and elites—the Dalai Lama even attended an event (05:09–05:56).
• Hidden Darkness: 17 women branded with Keith Raniere’s initials; Raniere sentenced to 120 years for sex trafficking and related crimes (05:56–06:33).
• The NLP Connection: Raniere’s partnership with Nancy Salzman, a "master NLP trainer," was key to NXIVM’s methods (07:02–07:25).

3. Nancy Salzman’s Story: From Healer to Trauma

• Origins: Nurse turned hypnosis aficionado; inspired by her mother’s chronic pain (08:06–09:20).
• Discovering NLP: Drawn to its “solution-based” approach, which emphasized transforming problems, not just reliving them (09:38).
• Learning from the Masters: Studied directly with NLP co-founder Richard Bandler, recounting a moment when he manipulated her ("nlped" her) to let him drive after drinking—Bandler denies this (09:52–10:10).

Notable Quote:

"You work with somebody, their lifetime is not supposed to be sitting around talking about their problems. So in nlp, it was solution based." – Nancy Salzman (09:38)

4. How Raniere Recruited Salzman—and Used NLP

• Reluctant Recruitment: Raniere pursued Nancy for years due to her NLP expertise, finally convincing her with the promise of “permanent change” for clients (12:32–14:17).
• Innovating NLP: Together, they developed the cult’s signature jargon (e.g., EM—Exploration of Meaning) and compressed NLP trainings into high-volume, high-profit workshops (14:17–14:43).
• Perception as Reality: The NLP doctrine that "your perception of the world is patchy and distorted" enables self-redefinition—but also opens the door for manipulation (15:20–16:31).

Notable Quote:

“In the NLP model of perception, we take in the reality data and then we take in what we think it means and we blend it all together. So our map of reality is not all about reality. Some of it is a bunch of meanings that aren't accurate.” – Nancy Salzman (15:20)

5. State Control: NLP’s Most Seductive Power

• Mental Management: Salzman teaches “state control,” using mental techniques to induce positive or resourceful emotional states, even in prison (16:47).
• Testimonial:
  • "A month in I said to myself, what is wrong with you? You have all of these tools, use them... I put myself in a good state... It is inexcusable for you to stay in this state because you are making yourself miserable." – Nancy Salzman (16:47)

6. Manipulation, Sleep Deprivation, and the Limits of NLP

• Raniere’s Real Power: Beyond words—he imposed sleep deprivation as “self-improvement” and would publicly shame followers for sleeping too much (20:03–21:57).
• Physical Side of Control: Sleep deprivation, food restriction, and (in other cults) drug use compound psychological techniques to keep followers vulnerable (22:09–22:40).

Notable Quote:

"Sleep deprivation is not NLP. But Keith used NLP to convince Nancy and other followers that running on fumes was good for them." – Zoe Lescaze (21:57)

7. Anchors, Rapport, and Hypnotic Language: The Mechanics of Control

• Anchoring Fear: Raniere weaponized NLP’s “anchors”—sensory cues to evoke emotions—using them to trigger fear and compliance (27:03–27:37, 28:49).
• Hypnotic Patter: Use of permissive language, ambiguous phrases, and trance-inducing storytelling, evidenced in courtroom-recorded tapes (28:08–28:45).
• Rapport and Influence: Field trainers like survivor Sarah Edmondson mirrored, paced, and led recruits to sell programs—sometimes for good, sometimes coercively (29:56–30:59).

Notable Quotes:

“He did a lot of physical touch anchoring... he would touch your hand... and hold your hands in a certain way while he was talking to you.” – Sarah Edmondson (29:04)
"If I was going to try to get you to take a training that you couldn't afford, and that would be bad for you and your family. Like, that's really bad." – Sarah Edmondson (30:16)

8. The ‘Branding’ Scandal: A Twisted Reframe

• Blackmail as Commitment: The infamous branding and “collateral” practices are described as the cult's ultimate manipulation—beyond what NLP alone could achieve (31:11–32:45).
• Manipulation Has Its Limits: "You cannot just truly brainwash someone into doing something against their own will. Human technologies like NLP can be used... but to truly make someone do something against their own will... it doesn't really work. You need force." – Alice Hines (31:56)

9. Positive Sides of NLP—And Survivors’ Dilemma

• Kinds of Healing: Both Nancy and Sarah recount genuine benefits from NLP: state control, reframing, emotional regulation (33:32–34:36).
• Danger of “Loaded Language”: Over time, even helpful techniques were twisted into means of destabilization and control (35:00–36:08).

Notable Quote:

“Reframing is supposedly a tool of self help... but in this case, it's doing the opposite.” – Alice Hines (35:39)

10. Aftermath: Recovery, Reflection, & Moral Questions

• Survivors Move On: Sarah Edmondson now helps other survivors and grapples with what pieces of NLP to keep (37:12–38:04).
• Nancy’s New Life: Still coaching, she maintains that NLP is not inherently evil—it depends on the practitioner (38:17–38:54).

Notable Quote:

“A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.” – Nancy Salzman (38:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Keith Ranieri could look at you, have a five minute conversation with you and understand exactly what your limitations were. And then he would tell you and you would feel like he was reading your mind." – Nancy Salzman (41:34)
• "Some people have had to throw it all out because they believe if you have, like, a particle of shit in a cake, it affects the whole cake." – Sarah Edmondson (37:38)
• "Nancy called him a psychopath in our interview, saying that he didn't have empathy. She blames him for all of the bad things that happened to her, as well as the group's broader abuse." – Alice Hines (39:15)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

| Time | Segment/Highlight | |----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:48 | Episode begins – introduction to NLP and NXIVM | | 04:15 | Focus on NXIVM: self-help façade and real abuses | | 07:02 | Keith Raniere recruits Nancy Salzman – the NLP connection | | 08:08 | Nancy’s backstory & fascination with hypnosis/NLP | | 09:38 | Nancy explains NLP’s solution-oriented approach | | 14:17 | Creating NXIVM: condensing and rebranding NLP | | 16:31 | “State Control” as a mind technique—applied even in prison | | 20:03 | Sleep deprivation as “self-improvement” – Keith’s manipulative twist | | 27:03 | “Anchoring” fear – NLP’s technical tools used for coercion | | 29:56 | Sarah Edmondson explains how NLP techniques were used to recruit and control | | 31:11 | Description of branding practices and the necessity of force/blackmail beyond NLP’s influence | | 33:40 | Sarah on positive uses of state control and reframing | | 37:12 | Sarah’s life after NXIVM; survivor community and NLP’s controversial legacy | | 38:54 | Nancy's “knife” metaphor: NLP as a neutral tool | | 39:15 | Nancy’s current view of Raniere as a psychopath and the lingering impact |

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Tone and Language of the Hosts

• Analytic but empathetic: Both Alice and Zoë strike a balance between investigative rigor and sensitivity to survivors.
• Candid and skeptical: Willingly question Nancy’s narrative, probe the gaps, and reflect on their own interpretations.
• Sober but occasionally wry: The hosts and interviewees don’t shy away from dark realities, but add moments of dry humor and honesty, especially around the limits and seductions of self-help.

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Conclusions

• NLP’s Risk/Reward: The episode forcefully illustrates that NLP’s techniques—anchoring, reframing, state control—can deliver real change, but also serve as tools for a manipulator if wielded without scruples.
• Limits of Mind Control: The hosts suggest that “real” mind control, as in getting people to act fundamentally against their will, ultimately requires more than verbal or mental manipulation—it needs tactics like blackmail, sleep deprivation, or physical threat.
• Aftermath: Survivors struggle with the aftermath: how to separate helpful methods from traumatic contexts, and how to tell real healing from “mind games.”
• Moral Complexity: Nancy Salzman remains both a victim and an architect, holding on to NLP’s promise but reckoning with its abuses.

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Preview for Next Episode:
Alice teases a direct confrontation with NLP co-founder Richard Bandler, suggesting fireworks ahead:

“And I find this very fucking offensive. Very fucking offensive. What the hell is wrong with you? Well, Richard, for someone who… Wow, Richard.” (43:38)

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This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the psychology of influence, the fine line between self-help and manipulation, and the real-world costs when charismatic leaders seize control over human perception itself.

Transcript

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[Alice Hines]

Kaleidoscope.

[Nancy Salzman]

Take a deep breath in. And breathe out.

[Alice Hines]

Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so that I can speak

[Nancy Salzman]

privately with your unconscious mind. You can notice that you feel rested, more alert, confident.

[Alice Hines]

From Kaleidoscope and I Heart Podcasts this is episode eight of Mind Games. Hi Hines, I'm Alice Hines.

[Zoe Lascaz]

I'm Zoe Lascoz.

[Julian Edelman]

You don't know how you did it, do you?

[Nancy Salzman]

You go into a little time distortion

[Sarah Edmondson]

state

[Nancy Salzman]

and you're out of it.

[Zoe Lascaz]

For seven episodes we've been tracing the story of Neuro Linguistic Programming and its founder, Richard Bandler. We've learned how a volatile young guy with a troubled past successfully sold a set of brain hacks and persuasion techniques to everyone. Corporate suits to pickup artists to the US Army.

[Alice Hines]

NLP started as self help, but it also began to appeal to groups that sold self help as a bait and switch in order to control and exploit groups popularly known as cults.

[Zoe Lascaz]

In this episode, we're going to dig into the darkest spinoff NLP ever spawned. A group called nxivm.

[Alice Hines]

Nxivm, a New York based cult whose leader was sentenced to 120 years in prison for sex trafficking and other crimes. You might have heard of NXIVM before

[Nancy Salzman]

brainwashing, sex abuse, and even branding.

[Alice Hines]

There was an HBO docu series about it called the Vow and a ton of media coverage at the time. But we're wanting to look at NXIVM from a different perspective as a case study for how NLP can be used for coercion and what happens when persuasion tools fall into the hands of someone with terrible and at times sadistic intentions. Someone like NXIVM's leader, Keith Ranieri.

[Keith Raniere]

ESP. NXIVM is a methodology that allows people to optimize their behavior.

[Alice Hines]

Keith Ranieri started out like a lot of people we've heard about on this podcast. He was an aspiring human potential entrepreneur interested in nlp. Not all that different from a young Richard Bandler or Tony Robbins. His company, nxivm, offered what they called executive success programs to people looking for an edge in their personal and professional lives. TV actresses joined Mexico's political elite did too. Two heiresses to the Seagram's liquor fortune bankrolled the organization for years on paper, NXIVM looked like a lot of other self improvement groups. The Dalai Lama even showed up to one of their events. But then at least 17 women ended up branded with Keith Ranieri's initials.

[Keith Raniere]

The person who's being branded should be completely nude and sort of held to the table like a sort of almost like a sacrifice.

[Alice Hines]

He loved being taped and so members filmed and recorded him constantly. This is a clip that was later played at his trial.

[Keith Raniere]

And the person should ask to be branded.

[Shelly Rome]

Okay.

[Keith Raniere]

She'd say, please brand me. It would be an honor or something like that. Not an honor I want to wear for the rest of my life.

[Nancy Salzman]

I don't know. We begin with breaking news in a celebrity sex cult trial. The alleged ringleader just convicted Keith was

[Alice Hines]

ultimately convicted of sex trafficking, among other crimes. In 2019, prosecutors say Keith Rainier was a master manipulator who ruined marriages, careers, fortunes, and lives. You've probably heard some of this story before, but what people don't know is that Keith was indebted to nlp.

[Keith Raniere]

Initially, Nancy was replaceable. I could have partnered with Anthony Robbins and other people and I didn't feel they were appropriate, personality wise and things like that.

[Alice Hines]

In this clip from the Vow, Keith is talking about Nancy Salzman. We met her in our first episode. She's a master NLP trainer. Keith recruited her to co found nxivm.

[Keith Raniere]

She was a good student and she was willing to learn the stuff. So now Nancy's not replaceable. And ultimately that's my goal, to create a thousand Nancys in the world.

[Alice Hines]

Keith made it sound like Nancy needed him, but it was a two way street. Keith needed her NLP skills and he used them for his own purposes.

[Nancy Salzman]

I never imagined that Keith Raniere would misuse my work. I believed that he was as committed to finding methods to help people as I was. And it was horribly shocking when I found out that he did.

[Alice Hines]

I met Nancy at her home outside of Albany, New York. It was the first interview she's done since being released from prison.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Hi there.

[Nancy Salzman]

She's my second sphinx. You have to feel her. It just kind of feels like velvet.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, her skin is amazing. She's totally hairless.

[Nancy Salzman]

Totally hairless.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy's story with NLP starts a few decades ago. Nancy, is this your nursing school graduation?

[Nancy Salzman]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Can I see it?

[Nancy Salzman]

This is my. Yeah, this is my.

[Alice Hines]

As a young nurse, she got interested in hypnosis.

[Nancy Salzman]

Well, here, you want to see the pictures? Yeah, that's me.

[Alice Hines]

Oh, my gosh. How old were you here?

[Nancy Salzman]

I was 20.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy showed me a picture of her on her bookshelf. It's the 1970s and she's a young, pretty Jewish girl from New Jersey with aviator glasses and dark brown hair. Had you started learning about hypnosis yet?

[Nancy Salzman]

At this time, no, but I already knew that My favorite thing was psych and I was interested in that and I was interested in chronic pain. And I started studying, like just taking courses. I didn't want to use drugs. I wanted to do something non traditional. And my ex husband was a physician and he introduced me to the whole idea, the whole idea of hypnosis for chronic pain and biofeedback.

[Alice Hines]

When Nancy was a child, her mom had debilitating back pain. Seeing her mom suffer set Nancy on a path.

[Nancy Salzman]

There's something about being able to help somebody that just makes me so. It's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.

[Alice Hines]

She was working with chronic pain patients and looking for ways to help them overcome suffering using the power of their minds. NLP did just that.

[Nancy Salzman]

You work with somebody, their lifetime is not supposed to be sitting around talking about their problems. So in nlp, it was solution based. So when people come to you, you know, what's the problem? What do you want?

[Alice Hines]

Nancy studied with Richard Bandler and saw firsthand how persuasive NLP can make someone. Remember Nancy told us how Bandler nlped her into letting him drive her new volvo drunk after 11 martinis. Bandler denies this.

[Nancy Salzman]

I couldn't believe he convinced me to do that.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy still believes strongly in the power of NLP to provoke change. That's why she was willing to speak to me for this podcast.

[Nancy Salzman]

I never would have believed how bad the media could be until I read about myself in the media and I realized how inaccurate it really was.

[Alice Hines]

What was the worst thing that you read?

[Nancy Salzman]

I had a company. It was a human performance company. We taught trainings, we helped people, we worked with people and really we had a money back guarantee for anyone who took the training and no one ever took the money back guarantee. People loved our training. And then a series of things happened with my business partner and he did something separate from my company.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Sex cult.

[Nancy Salzman]

Sex cult? Yeah. And they called it a cult.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy doesn't like to call NXIVM a cult. She claims the company helped more than 18,000 people with its so called executive success programs.

[Nancy Salzman]

My company taught trainings and it created coaches and it was a goal setting program and we were very consistent in what we were doing and, and the majority of the people who were in my Company knew nothing about this other thing and I knew nothing about it.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy pled guilty to charges of racketeering and served a two year prison sentence. Keith Ranieri meanwhile, is serving 120 year sentence for crimes including sex trafficking. Do you think that he was misusing any of the self improvement techniques that you had showed him to manipulate these women?

[Nancy Salzman]

No, no, I think he was just extorting them. I think he was promising them. I think he was lying and extorting them.

[Alice Hines]

He's promising them self improvement?

[Nancy Salzman]

Yes. Everything he did was promising self improvement.

[Alice Hines]

It seemed to me that Nancy was still processing exactly what had happened in nxivm. But I wanted to sort out definitively whether NLP was part of NXIVM's abuse. I had Nancy take me back to the 1990s when Keith first started pursuing her. At the time he was running a multi level marketing company called Consumers Byline.

[Nancy Salzman]

When he started his first company, he wanted his whole staff to have nlp and I refused. I said no.

[Alice Hines]

Keith kept sending people to meet with Nancy on his behalf, which she thought was a little weird.

[Nancy Salzman]

I didn't even want to meet him for any reason. My ex husband's wife introduced us. That's the only reason. I met him because he was pursuing me for years.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy was at the peak of her career as an NLP trainer working for Con Edison in New York at their nuclear power plant.

[Nancy Salzman]

I worked in one division of the company and I was teaching the NLP communications model. And one of the senior vice presidents came in and watched me teach it and he was very impressed by it. And he brought me in to be the human performance person to help them get the nuclear power plant back online.

[Alice Hines]

This sounded improbable to me at first that a nuclear plant would hire an NLP trainer. But I actually tracked down the Con Ed VP who hired Nancy. He didn't want to give an interview for this podcast, but he confirmed her story and said her work helped boost operator morale. It was this kind of skill that Keith wanted at his company. Eventually he convinced Nancy to sit down with him.

[Nancy Salzman]

So when I met Keith, he immediately figured out, or maybe I just told him, that I really wanted to help people. Interestingly, I started to feel like I wasn't helping people any longer and that maybe I would give that up. And he asked me why and I said because none of the change seems to be permanent.

[Alice Hines]

Keith promised that together he and Nancy could improve upon nlp.

[Nancy Salzman]

When we decided to teach the communication model of nlp, I used to teach that in A weekend and we taught it in two hours. I think the genius of Keith wasn't that he came up with all these things on his own. It was that he could take extremely complex information and and break it down into something that a nine year old could understand.

[Alice Hines]

In 1998 Keith and Nancy Co founded the company that became NXIVM. Nancy was teaching NLP at their trainings like this one captured in the vow.

[Nancy Salzman]

Now the difference between having an integration and other processes is when it's gone, it's gone. With an integration you can't even remember what it used to be like. It changes your whole experience of existence forever.

[Alice Hines]

Keith and Nancy took ideas from NLP and added new jargon. An integration was a transformation achieved by redefining your reality.

[Nancy Salzman]

When you took our five day training you learned about perception and about changing meaning and a bunch of different things that then made it easy for me to work with people. In the NLP model of perception, we take in the reality data and then we take in what we think it means and we blend it all together. So our map of reality is not all about reality. Some of it is a bunch of meanings that aren't accurate. So the information comes in, it passes through filters and we make an internal representation. And that internal representation drives our emotions, it drives our behavior, it drives our thought processes.

[Zoe Lascaz]

I don't know about this being something any 9 year old can easily understand. But the point she's making about maps of reality is straight nlp. She's basically saying that your perception of the world is patchy and distorted and once you recognize that, you can decide how you want to feel or behave. And from there you can create your own reality.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, this is actually really important in State control. This NLP technique we heard about in our first episode. You'll remember Nancy talking about how she was able to conjure feelings of happiness and excitement to overcome depression when she was in prison.

[Nancy Salzman]

A month in I said to myself, what is wrong with you? You have all of these tools, use them. And I put myself in a good state. And I said, see, you know how to do this. It is inexcusable for you to stay in this state because you are making yourself miserable. And I did. I kept myself in a good state the whole time I was stuck in prison.

[Zoe Lascaz]

The idea that these tools are so effective you could have a great time in prison is honestly pretty seductive. I want this superpower. Yeah.

[Alice Hines]

So nixxivm took this NLP technique, State Control, and repackaged it. They called the process of reframing your emotions and memories. An EM for exploration of meaning. And Keith would often use it on Nancy. When she was first working with Keith, she was still at the nuclear power plant and she was stressed out by her job and going through a divorce. But through working with Keith, I just

[Nancy Salzman]

stopped being afraid and I stopped being upset. I just wasn't anymore.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy was able to change how she felt.

[Nancy Salzman]

I was driving home after a meeting with Keith and we had been up like till 4 o' clock in the morning because I would come home like at 11 or 12 because I was driving back from my work at the nuclear power plant on Friday night. And I would say, I'll meet you in the morning. And he would say, no, come now, there's food, blah, blah. So I'd go to eat and then we'd start talking. Before I knew it, I'd be crying, we'd be talking. I'd be embarrassed because I was crying. Nobody seemed to notice. There's people around all the time. Nobody noticed. I was, I was always a puddle. And then, you know, at the end of the weekend, I remember I would say to Keith, are you going to put me back together again? I have to leave. And he would say, oh yeah, I always put you back together. And he would.

[Alice Hines]

The longer Nancy spent with Keith, the more her professional and personal worlds blended together.

[Nancy Salzman]

But I remember also feeling like when I first started working with him, he was doing such intense work with me that I would be walking around and I would feel like the ground underneath me wasn't solid. And I would start to think, oh my God, this feels really weird. I'd be going like this as I was walking, you know, thinking, this is solid. Why do I feel like I'm falling through the floor?

[Alice Hines]

Because he was making you question your reality?

[Nancy Salzman]

Yes. He was actually changing how I perceived my reality. But the more he did it, the more effective I got. So I didn't question it. I just felt like everything was changing. He did it really quickly with me.

[Alice Hines]

Questioning your reality can yield a lot of progress and success, but then someone else controls your reality.

[Nancy Salzman]

He was making me more reality based, though. I was seeing that. I was seeing my own limitations. It wasn't like he was trying to cause me to believe things that weren't true. He was showing me how what I believed was limiting me.

[Zoe Lascaz]

It's sounding like she feels some of the work she did with Keith was actually helpful.

[Alice Hines]

Yes. But Keith also told Nancy one of her limiting beliefs was that she needed to sleep.

[Nancy Salzman]

I would feel like it was a limitation of mine if I needed more than four hours of sleep. And so I started, you know, trying to get by with less sleep.

[Alice Hines]

It was one more thing to optimize. The less you slept, the more you could achieve.

[Nancy Salzman]

And after a long period of time of convincing myself that it wasn't okay to sleep more than four hours, I. I started to notice things, like if I drove late in the day or at night, I would fall asleep driving. I ended up on my front lawn once because I fell asleep once. I got. I was, like, really alert as I was driving home. And once I got to my block and my house was the third house in, I relaxed and I fell asleep, and I ended up on my front lawn. I mean, I didn't hit anything. It woke me right up. But I got a reputation for needing to be driven home at night from any training that went past dark because people knew that I couldn't stay awake at night.

[Alice Hines]

Sleep deprivation feels like an obvious red flag for abuse, but because it was framed as self improvement, Nancy didn't catch it.

[Nancy Salzman]

Because I kept thinking there was something wrong with me. And it never. It didn't even occur to me until years after I stopped interacting with him that I could drive at night and it wasn't ever a problem. And I thought to myself, oh, my God, I was sleep deprived. And I said to a number of people who I still speak to, I think I was sleep deprived when I was working with Keith. And they all said, are you crazy? He kept you sleep deprived. He used to announce in front of the room, he would shame you in front of the entire room if you needed too much sleep.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Interesting, because sleep deprivation is not nlp. But Keith used NLP to convince Nancy and other followers that running on fumes was good for them.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, and this is actually a pattern I've seen in my reporting on groups that use coercive control, popularly known as cults. Basically, people like Keith use therapeutic techniques to woo followers and. But these techniques can only go so far in manipulating people. To truly control someone, cult leaders layer mind games with changes to physiology. Things like sleep deprivation, appetite suppression, or even encouraging followers to take high doses of lsd, which is what the Manson family did.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Uh, it's like a toxic soup. It's just like all of these tactics blended together, leave you so strung out, totally disoriented, and utterly unable to question the charismatic guy driving the bus.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, exactly. And on top of that, Nancy said she was often afraid of Keith.

[Nancy Salzman]

What Keith did do a lot was he created stimulus response patterns in people because he was very good at reading an individual and noticing where they're fears were and then he used them. I don't think that was using human technology. I think he was sensitive. He could see those things and when he saw your pattern and your your fear, he was very capable of using it against.

[Redfin Announcer]

Foreign.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is Stock up Savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, All M M's, Drumstick, Outshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up, pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

[CarMax/Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

[Redfin Announcer]

It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin finds flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app You can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win. Not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com Ryan Reynolds here from Mint

[Nancy Salzman]

Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying Big Wireless way Too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Alice Hines]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail]

[Sarah Edmondson]

at one point in

[Alice Hines]

our interview, I asked Nancy Salzman outright whether Keith had used NLP against her. At first she said no, but then she thought of something.

[Nancy Salzman]

Well, eventually he put some fear anchors into me. Yes, some fear anchors. Yeah. And that would cause me not to want to approach him about things.

[Zoe Lascaz]

We've heard about anchors throughout the series. It's the classic technique NLP got from hypnosis, where someone uses a sensory cue like a tap on the knee or a specific sound to trigger an emotional state. In nlp, anchors are usually established to trigger positive feelings like excitement or confidence.

[Alice Hines]

But Keith used anchors to make people feel scared and uncomfortable.

[Keith Raniere]

Anywhere in your body that there's a sensation that you try to. Try to ignore or try to suppress. It just gets stronger and stronger.

[Alice Hines]

In this scene from the vowel, Keith is talking to one of his many girlfriends. We noticed some hypnotic techniques we learned about while reporting this podcast, like permissive language, deliberately ambiguous phrases, and stories that can induce a trance state.

[Keith Raniere]

And perhaps there are areas in your body you haven't noticed before. Like certainly you've noticed your stomach at times, and maybe the sensation in your stomach now is changing but not going away. Maybe intensifying, maybe not, but probably intensifying. It may be becoming less comfortable, but that's okay.

[Alice Hines]

The woman looks uneasy and asks him to stop.

[Nancy Salzman]

I guess you're not gonna let me finish my report.

[Keith Raniere]

No, you're almost.

[Nancy Salzman]

I'm trying to read.

[Keith Raniere]

Yeah, that's okay. You can finish your report.

[Nancy Salzman]

Can you stop?

[Keith Raniere]

I can stop. And you want to know what else?

[Alice Hines]

But Keith doesn't stop. He leans over and taps her arm.

[Nancy Salzman]

I will stop.

[Alice Hines]

A classic NLP anchor.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He did a lot of physical touch anchoring. You know when you put your hands up and you kind of clasp, you're kind of like. You're clasping. You're holding like that.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Do you know what I mean?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, you're. He would do that. He would touch your hand. And he did this to me. I've seen him do it to others where he'd, like, touch certain parts of your hand and hold your hands in a certain way while he was talking to you. Like I've said, just to be really clear, did not have an intimate relationship with him. But the women who had it have verified that this is a big part of how he got close to women.

[Alice Hines]

That's Sarah Edmondson, a former NXIVM member who was in the group for 12 years.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I was basically in charge of bringing people to the. To the info nights and pitching it to them and helping them sign up. And embarrassingly, I was quite good at that. That's something I was proud of at the time. But, yeah, I was. I was trained in all of the things. Sales, all the nlp, all of the cbt, all of the techniques that Keith was really good at.

[Alice Hines]

As a NXIVM field trainer, Sarah was taught an NLP concept called rapport to convince people to sign up for trainings to build rapport. Sarah would mirror someone's tonality, gestures, and emotions, then try to influence or lead them. It could be totally innocent, leading my

[Sarah Edmondson]

kids to, like, brush their teeth, and it's gonna be so fun.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Yay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We'll play the Elmo song. That's probably a good use of pacing. But if I was going to, you know, try to get you to take a training that you couldn't afford, and that would be bad for you and your family. Like, that's really bad. Or, you know, on the extreme level, certain people, you know, trying to manipulate me and get me to believe that getting branded would be good for my commitment to myself and my growth, because they were using all sorts of words, anchoring of different concepts, commitment, and how that was accessing my subconscious world to even someone saying, like, what does it mean if you don't do this, you're a leader.

[Alice Hines]

So branding actually got sold to Sarah, believe it or not, as women's empowerment.

[Zoe Lascaz]

So wait, how did they get Sarah to get a brand then? Alice, it doesn't sound like she was into the idea.

[Alice Hines]

Yes. So to be clear, NLP didn't make Sarah get branded. NLP was one part of Keith's seduction and eventual control. But there was also a lot more to it. She got invited to join this secretive group within nxivm called dos. It was all women, and how it was pitched to her was that if she joined, she would accelerate her personal growth. So in addition to giving brands, the group asked for collateral. So Sarah had to give compromising information, like nude photos of herself when she joined. And supposedly this was going to keep her accountable to her progress.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Okay, so they framed blackmail as helping you keep track of your goals or something like that.

[Alice Hines]

I think it's really illustrative that NXIVM and this subgroup within nxivm where all the women were branded, they couldn't just rely on manipulation and NLP to get people to do something truly awful. They had to blackmail them. Right. Like, manipulation only gets you so far. If you really want to control people, you need sleep deprivation, appetite suppression. You need to dose them with drugs or you need to blackmail them. You cannot just truly brainwash someone into doing something against their own will. I think we see that over and over again in these groups. Human technologies like NLP can be used in recruitment and also to dissuade people from leaving a group like this. But to truly make someone do something against their own will, I. E. Like mind control, it doesn't really work. You need force.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's where, like, a more specific understanding of a term like brainwashing or indoctrination fits in. Brainwashing is one word to say it. But I can also say NLP was used on me to access my subconscious using words, matching, mirroring, leading, anchoring. All of the. All of it was an inherent sort of web of deception within everything we did.

[Alice Hines]

In nxivm, none of this happened all at once. It happened slowly and after the leaders had established trust.

[Sarah Edmondson]

If someone had said to me on day one of my five day when I was 28, that in 12 years I was going to be branded with a leader's initials, I would have clearly given them the finger and ran out the door. And there's another element. I would say, you don't want to be rude and you kind of want to just, like, see where things go and give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Alice Hines]

Some of the techniques were genuinely helpful. Sarah was actually a big fan of state control, which we've heard about before.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Honestly, I loved it. I loved it, especially as an actor, to be able to, you know, to walk into a situation and have to bring up a state of joy or intensity or power. It was amazing. It was a button that I could push and I still use some of those things today.

[Alice Hines]

That wasn't the only technique from NLP that Sarah appreciated.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And just to give your listeners, like a positive version of that. And why I so much trusted this whole system from the beginning is that my very first EM exploration of meaning was so powerful. And really it was a reframing. I won't get into the whole thing, but I used to have this really extreme reaction, anger, like rage to my boyfriend at the time, not nippy, not my husband leaving dishes in the sink and leaving a mess. Like I would just go into a rage. And I knew it was unique and I knew it wasn't based in any sort of reality, but it just happened. And my first EM was basically looking at what the dishes meant to me.

[Alice Hines]

And when Sarah dug into the dishes thing, it took her back to her parents divorce. She realized she was connecting messy kitchens to their split.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And all the facilitator had to say is, what if the dishes didn't cause the divorce? So all she had to do was say that. And I go, oh, my goodness. My parents were 26. They had a whole bunch of things going on. The dishes didn't cause the divorce. They weren't a good fit. Like, that's a reframe.

[Alice Hines]

Reframing was supposed to make Sarah's understanding of reality more objective, but it got

[Sarah Edmondson]

twisted when I, when I left. How I knew that I, when I was speaking to somebody who was still hooked in is they would say things to me like, because I was telling people about the branding, right, At a certain point and they'd say, like, what? But what does that mean exactly? Like, what if that's not bad, what's bad about it? Exactly. And I would say, dude, branding is what farmers do to cattle. It means that they own the cattle Keith thinks that I am. And then they would say something like, what if it's only that if you make it mean that trying to reframe what it means.

[Alice Hines]

Reframing is supposedly a tool of self help. It's supposed to help you gain more agency and control over your reality. But in this case, it's doing the opposite.

[Shelly Rome]

Right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Exactly. Every question set was a series of questions that were about concepts, about your values, your beliefs, your understandings of the world. But I do think everything was controlled and everything was designed to get you a little bit Unstable. And I say, I don't want to get a brand. Why? What are you making it mean?

[Alice Hines]

Another member of the group suggested that Sarah question her perception of reality. Classic nlp.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's like a tattoo. I don't want any mark on my body. I've never had a tattoo for this reason.

[Redfin Announcer]

I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

How come? What does it mean? Well, it's like a scar. It's a permanent blemish. What if it's a permanent commitment to your growth? And commitment and growth are like words that you and I both understand as English, but those are what you. I'm sure you've heard the term now in your research. Loaded language.

[Alice Hines]

In retrospect, Sarah thinks the brand was itself an anchor, a concept straight out of nlp. Seeing and touching the mark on her body was a physical sensation that conjured an emotional state of commitment to a leader she ultimately broke free of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Honestly, I look at the women who are branded, and as far as I know, there's only. There's less than 30. I personally had mine removed. I had physical. Like, I had plastic surgery and had it cut off. But if you look at those women, some of them are still completely loyal to Keith.

[Alice Hines]

Since leaving nxivm, Sarah's become a spokeswoman for cult survivors. She co hosts the podcast A Little Bit Culty with her husband Nippy, who also left nxivm. Many of the groups they examine on the podcast use nlp.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sarah says they may not call it NLP in other groups, but every group that I've ever looked at does something like that.

[Alice Hines]

I asked Sarah if she still uses any NXIVM techniques.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not everybody agrees and ex members like that we've left together. Some people have had to throw it all out because they believe if you have, like, a particle of shit in a cake, it affects the whole cake. Obviously, the way that I've approached it is that because I spent 12 years there, if I throw it all out, that's a huge waste of time. I've had to, like, figure out what tool I want and where it came from originally and not pay any tribute to Keith.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy's not so different. She still believes in NLP and for the most part, how it was used in nxivm. She's currently coaching clients over zoom from her townhouse outside of Albany.

[Nancy Salzman]

The last seven years has just been a lot of loss for me, so now it's up all the way uphill.

[Alice Hines]

How, like, soon did you start coaching? When you came home from prison?

[Nancy Salzman]

The minute they said I could. Really? I was doing it in the halfway house. Really on my phone. They couldn't figure out why I couldn't, so they said I could, and I would set it up so you couldn't tell where I was. It's horrifying.

[Alice Hines]

Can NLP be used for good or evil? Is it a neutral tool?

[Nancy Salzman]

You know, when people ask me about that, one of the things that I say is a knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.

[Zoe Lascaz]

What's Nancy's relationship with Keith like now?

[Alice Hines]

Non existent. Nancy called him a psychopath in our interview, saying that he didn't have empathy. She blames him for all of the bad things that happened to her, as well as the group's broader abuse.

[Nancy Salzman]

Narcissists are very kind in the beginning to get you enrolled. And that's exactly what he did. And so in the first couple of years, he was incredibly kind to me. And then the abuse started a little at a time. And he was very smart, as I've said.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy now recognizes tactics like sleep deprivation as abuse, but she also still parrots some Keith propaganda.

[Nancy Salzman]

You have to understand something. Keith Ranieri, according to the Guinness Book of World Records, is one of the top three scorers on IQ tests ever in history.

[Zoe Lascaz]

We fact check this, and while Keith was listed in the 1989 Australian edition of the Guinness Book, his claims to being the smartest man in the world were based on taking an untimed, unsupervised IQ test. A lot of IQ tests, including the one Keith took, are totally bogus. Guinness deleted the highest IQ category in 1990.

[Nancy Salzman]

Yeah.

[Alice Hines]

I think the real reason why Nancy is still invested in Keith being some kind of genius, even though she hates him, has to do with her own guilt. If Keith is an evil mastermind, it's easier to forgive herself for not knowing what was going on in the group if we take her word for it, or for not acting against him.

[Zoe Lascaz]

But how do you know she actually feels guilty, Alice? Are we just trusting her on that? We know she has a gift for controlling her emotions and for persuading other people she could just be an operator.

[Alice Hines]

I've thought a lot about that, but here's something I keep coming back to. Nancy has this personality type of someone who falls under the influence of powerful men. These guys who position themselves as geniuses with all the answers. She's weirdly gullible towards these guys, and it seems to happen to her over and over. Recall the Volvo. You let Richard Van Lur drive Your brand new Volvo, 10 martinis in.

[Nancy Salzman]

He didn't seem drunk.

[Alice Hines]

This guy had something.

[Nancy Salzman]

He did. What did he have? I don't know.

[Alice Hines]

Richard Bandler and Keith Ranieri had a few things in common.

[Nancy Salzman]

Like Richard Bandler could look at you and see patterns, but no one could look at you and see patterns like Keith Raniere. Keith Ranieri could look at you, have a five minute conversation with you and understand exactly what your limitations were. And then he would tell you and you would feel like he was reading your mind. I felt like Keith Ranieri could read my mind sometimes. And when I first met him, it was almost scary. I sat and talked to him. I felt like no one had ever known me better in the first conversation I had with him.

[Alice Hines]

Was he charismatic

[Nancy Salzman]

when he wanted to be?

[Alice Hines]

Who was more charismatic? Richard Van Ler or Keith Renieri?

[Nancy Salzman]

Or were neither of them charismatic? That's kind of what I'm weighing.

[Alice Hines]

As we left Nancy, she packed us some leftover lunch for the train ride back to New York City.

[Nancy Salzman]

You guys are going to be on the train for three hours?

[Alice Hines]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Too.

[Nancy Salzman]

You're going to need food. I think I should pack up the cheese and bread. Oh, my God. And you guys can have it on the train. Cheese and bread. You should take it. I'm telling you, you're going to be hungry on the tr.

[Alice Hines]

I spent the train ride home wondering about the people who have used NLP for their own purposes and about the men who started it all. I kept wondering where in the world Richard Bandler was and whether he bears any responsibility for his tool, nlp, getting used as a weapon. In our last episode, I finally get to ask him.

[Ryan Seacrest]

This is what we refer to as a hit job.

[Alice Hines]

And I find this very fucking offensive. Very fucking offensive. What the hell is wrong with you? Well, Richard, for someone who. Wow, Richard.

[Zoe Lascaz]

That's next time on Mind Games.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, drumstick, outshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

[CarMax/Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Support for the show comes from public. The investing platform for those who take it seriously on Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It's screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

[Redfin Announcer]

It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app. You can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win. Not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com hey, it's Shelly Rome.

[Shelly Rome]

So working late nights on the radio gives you a lot of quiet time with your thoughts, and sometimes your mind just won't slow down. I've always wondered why our minds do what they do, why they race, why we get stuck in the same loops, and how we can actually work with our thoughts instead of fighting them. That's what led me to the Waking up app created by Neuroscientist Sam Harris Waking up is so much more than meditation. It blends neuroscience, philosophy and guided practices that help you really understand your mind. You learn to notice your thoughts, slow them down and gain perspective, which makes all the difference when you're really feeling overwhelmed. I use waking up after long nights to reset, feel calmer and start the day with more clarity. If the New year has you thinking about a smarter, more meaningful reset, explore Waking up free for 30 days with my link wakingup.com roam it really changes the way you think about your thoughts.

[Zoe Lascaz]

Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is created and hosted by me, Zoe Lascaz and Alice Hines. It's produced by Ryder Alsop and Dara Lord Potts Edited by Kate Osborne Editorial

[Alice Hines]

consulting from Adeza Egan Original composition and mixing by Steve Bone Fact checking by Eamonn Whalen from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oz Wiloshin, Mangesh Hatikador and Kate Osborne from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Etor.

[Nancy Salzman]

Foreign.

[Julian Edelman]

This is Julian Edelman from Games With Names. I want to take a second to talk about something that's personal to me. I've had the privilege of working closely with Robert Kraft for a long time, and one thing I've always respected is how seriously he takes up standing up to hate. As a Jewish athlete, my identity is something I am proud of, but I also know what it feels like to be singled out for it. That's why this new commercial for the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate that aired during the big Game really hit home. It's about showing up for someone when they're targeted, even if you don't have the perfect words. And sometimes standing next to someone is enough and you can show support by sharing the Blue Square.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and cond.

[Shelly Rome]

Hey, it's shelly Rome on Z100. I'm someone who really likes to understand why we think the way that we do not just how to relax. That's what pulled me into the Waking up app. Created by neuroscientist Sam Harris, it combines meditation with real science and thoughtful storytelling about the mind. I use it after my late night shift to slow things down and gain much needed perspective. If you're like looking for a clearer way to reset, explore waking up for 30 days free with my link wakingup.com

[Ryan Seacrest]

roam are you a fraud paying American? 1 in 4 tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud. With Lifelock. If your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed or your money back. Last year billions in refunds were stolen. Could be from your salary, overtime or second job gone. But this year you don't need to

[Alice Hines]

stay a victim because this tax season,

[Ryan Seacrest]

fraud paying American is something no American

[CarMax/Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Save up to 40% your first year.

[CarMax/Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply.